The Tigers swung a trade with the Phillies earlier today, landing outfielder Matt Vierling, utilityman Nick Maton, and catcher Donny Sands in exchange for one of Detroit’s biggest trade chips. Gregory Soto’s emergence as the Tigers’ closer resulted in two All-Star appearances in as many seasons, but the left-hander and the versatile Kody Clemens are now both part of Philadelphia’s organization.
Soto was arbitration-eligible for the first time this winter, so the Tigers weren’t necessarily in any immediate rush to ship him elsewhere. Back at the trade deadline, the Tigers put a high asking price on any Soto deal, and those demands didn’t change even after Scott Harris was hired as the team’s new president of baseball operations in September. With the Phillies finally stepping up to satisfy Detroit’s ask for younger, controllable, and MLB-ready players, the trade was made.
“We felt like this deal was over the line for us,” Harris told reporters, including Chris McCosky of the Detroit News. “We wanted to make the deal now. Performance next year, even in the first half of next year, is never a certainty. That would be another risk that we would’ve taken. That’s not a comment on Gregory as a pitcher, it’s just a reality of performance in this industry….And we’re thrilled that we got back players who have a chance to help us in 2023 and beyond.”
Rival teams’ interest in the Tigers’ relief corps naturally continued into the winter. Soto represents the second major reliever traded away from Detroit’s bullpen during Harris’ brief tenure, as Joe Jimenez was also dealt to the Braves in December. Andrew Chafin is a free agent, but it doesn’t seem like a return to Detroit is in the cards, as Harris implied that a further left-handed addition to the pen could be a minor league signing.
“We are hard at work on” this new acquisition, Harris said. “It may not be a major league deal, but [it’s] someone we’re excited about. We also have some pitchers in the minor leagues who are on the verge of taking a step forward.”
Jake Higginbotham (acquired in the Jimenez deal), Sean Guenther, and Zach Logue are three of the left-handed relief options in the farm system who could be competing during Spring Training for a bullpen job. Tyler Alexander is currently the only southpaw penciled into a spot on the Opening Day lineup. As for the bullpen as a whole, Harris said the Tigers will use Spring Training as a testing ground to see which incumbents or new faces could fill particular roles in the depleted bullpen.
The Tigers are betting they have enough relief depth to make up for losing so many prominent names from their 2022 bullpen, and naturally there is some risk involved is trading from what was basically the club’s only bright spot in an otherwise disastrous season. While the relievers by and large did their job, the rotation was crushed by injuries, and the position players almost entirely failed to hit. The result was a 66-96 record, and a huge setback for a team that invested a lot of money last offseason into a return to contention.
Former general manager Al Avila was fired by the Tigers in August, and Harris has now been tasked with filling a lot of holes up and down the roster. To this end, trading from the bullpen depth was the new PBO’s most logical move.
“The bullpen was an area of strength for us but we have to address areas of weakness, too,” Harris said. “We’ve done a lot of work to add to our pitching and defense to stabilize this group. And we have to reshape the offense. I’ve been talking about it since the day I got here.”
Vierling and Maton each made their big league debuts in 2021, and have been used in part-time roles throughout their two MLB seasons. The duo stand out as possible everyday additions to Detroit’s lineup, though their versatility allows either player to be used almost anywhere on the diamond. Vierling played mostly outfield in Philadelphia, but in all positions, and also saw some work as a first baseman, second baseman, and third baseman. Maton has mostly been a middle infielder, but he has also seen time in both corner outfield positions and at third base. As noted by Harris, Vierling and Maton are “comfortable both on the grass and in the dirt….Those types of players are hard to find and we feel we’ve added two who have already performed in the big leagues.”
Good move by all accounts. Soto is streaky and was a two-time all star because, well, every team has to send one player.
These two players can shore the Tigers up in places where they have needs, potential upsides.
It’s one of those moves that I like for both sides.
Hate to lose Vierling RH bat. Who platoons for Marsh? Otherwise a sensible transaction.
Dalton Guthrie.
Marsh doesn’t need to platoon. He earned an everyday spot. But I hate losing Vierling while Harper is out. Would’ve been nice to DH Castellanos and Schwarber sometimes.
I suspect rickshaw is right, Dalton Guthrie moves into that OF utility spot. At the very least, someone will fill the role, and Guthrie seems to have a leg up right now.
The tigers had a huge asking price for Soto, so they got a UTL guy, a 4th OFer, and backup C
It’s strange. It’s like the Lirates with Reynolds. Internally, he’s not worth 5/$120 or whatever, but then they want a Soto-like return in him from everyone else. Very, very weird disparity in valuations.
That’s not disparity in evaluation from the pirates, it’s unwillingness to spend money
Huge asking price for in his prime Soto is not the same asking price a for a prime-Mariano Rivera.
They might be back ups on a WS caliber team, but in DET, they will get opportunities to prove if they are everyday players. Two completely different teams in two completely different positions.
Exactly right. The Phillies went to the World Series. The fact that Maton and Vierling weren’t starting as 25-year-olds is hardly an indictment on their futures. Detroit won 66 games and had no one who could hit the ball. These two might become two of our top offensive players this year, who knows.
Everybody on that team had proven over and over they could hit the ball. But you can’t mess with an entire lineup with the crazy “let the pitch get deep” nonsense without consequences. The best off-season move so far was tossing Scott Coolbaugh in the dumpster.
How was Scott Coolbaugh when Schoop and Grossman had career years and Badoo broke out from nothing? Coolbaugh was doing good then I would tend to think.
You’re missing the change Hinch and Coolbaugh made in ST last season. Neither guy could hit MLB pitching….that’s important to understand…it’s all “theory” with both of them and BTW Charlie Lau couldn’t either and his teaching was equally disastrous with everybody but Brett. So spare me the Charlie Lau example…it didn’t work. Hinch and Coolbaugh designed a scheme to beat the shift or so they thought, maybe over several beers. Hinch finally said it: “let the ball get deep for more fly balls.” Read that again. And don’t think Hinch didn’t know what Coolbaugh was SCREAMING at his hitters….he was right behind Hinch in the dugout. So they were telling guys who could hit, have always hit, not to time their swing like they always had but to wait an instant to go oppo. The entire lineup was late on fastballs….last in MLB hitting fastballs. I saw Spencer Torkelson at ASU……he could turn on 100mph fastballs…fastest bat I ever saw in a college player. In ’22 he was taking low 90’s fastball down the middle…..his timing was destroyed…he didn’t do that to himself…hone of them did. So if you’re a Coolbaugh fan, let me know if he ever gets another job in MLB.
Coolbaugh & Co. Were praise for the Job they did in 2021. Everything worked from day one. However, in ’22, they needed to be fired, because after the entire team started in a slump, they weren’t able to adjust and correct the problem. Adjustments have to be made constantly. Only Haase was able to improve as the year went on.
George Brett could hit even before Charlie Lau. Harold Baines may be the biggest beneficiary of Lau, according to my ever fading memory.
I didn’t watch Tork at ASU, but he has looked lost since his first big professional at bat since he was drafted. From spring training, to the practice squad during covid. Minor leagues at every stop. His spring training two years ago might have been the worst in baseball history. Just one hard hit ball all spring! including outs and foul balls. Coolbaugh hadn’t gotten to him yet and he was awful then. I hope Tork has a great off-season.
@D24 This emphasizes your point a bit, but Vierling started a bunch for the Phillies, including playoff and WS games. He’s more than bench depth.
Torkelson was dominant in the minors. To say that he has looked “lost” since he was drafted is just plain stupid.
Tork was not dominant, he had some good stretches but I would say struggled especially when getting promotions any new level he had a rough start. Still to do so poorly on fastballs in the middle of the plate, doesn’t matter who the hitting coach is.That is bad.
Exactly HN, and Scott has said repeatedly he wants guys with plate discipline who are willing to play together. He does not want to wait for a blow but manufacturer runs so the blow isn’t needed. He also wants guys who want to get better and has invested I. a staff that can make that happen. As to Vierling, how many backups get 315 AB’s as well as hit .295 against lefties. Maton, Nicky “bats”, has ice water in his veins and relishes the big moment, a high energy guy.who had WRC of 138+. In one trade, Harris landed a right-handed OF, a left-handed If and catching depth. Sands was a noted steal by the Phillies from the Yanks who hit AAA at a .305 clip in 2022. And all these guys showed marked improvements in the second half. Vierling was on the WS roster for the Phillies as a rookie with 97 percentile speed.
I admit, from the outside I sure thought Soto would generate more return as a LH high-leverage reliever, if for no other reason than the interest from multiple teams. But, I also didn’t watch Soto all that much. I evaluated Soto based on his EOS metrics, which are pretty good.
When looking at him for consideration at the beginning of the offseason, I wouldn’t have pegged this return at all. Seems like they sold low on him to me, but you Det fans would know much better than I would.
As a Detroit fan, this is a wait and see trade. After cutting Reyes, Harold and Willi, the bench was empty. Maton replaces Harold. Vierling replaces Willi. They both have an outside chance to win a starting job in spring. Sands adds a needed C to replace Barnhart. I am hopeful for a healthy Rogers, but they can’t rely on his bat. At this point, it doesn’t seem like that much change from what they had (if not for the cuts) and they don’t have a 3B or a closer.
Soto throws hard and got saves, but the metrics were pretty poor, especially for a closer: 13% walk rate (sixth highest among qualified relievers), strikeout rate dropped from 28 to 23 (so a 10% K-BB, league average was 14), swinging strike rate dropped from 13 to 11, SIERA of 4.2, mediocre shutdown/meltdown ratio (28/16), negative Win Probability Added (-0.8), got really lucky on HR/FB compared to previous seasons. There were real questions whether he could have kept the closer’s job in Detroit despite last year’s saves total.
He was the 4th best RP the Tigers had last year. He would have probably been the CP again since they lost two of those 4 but Lange could have swiped it if Soto tripped up, for sure.
My criticism isn’t in the quality of the return. Its that the positions he needed to restock were of Harris’ own creation. Detroit needed the OF and IF because he cut last years bench. Was this the best way to use the few trade chips they had?
Great circular logic. Has it occurred to you that Harold has not been picked up by anyone for a reason? I’m sure you have special insight that 30 mlb general managers don’t have. Or how about the other 2 getting minor league contracts? Harris should hire you as a scout.
Soto’s a 1 inning, streaky, pulling your hair out closer. I think it’s fair. We got major league ready talent. What we asked for basically.
And if you guys see my comment multiple times, I apologize. Idky it’s doing that!
Outside of the catching prospect the other two guys are slightly below average at best IMO.
hardawg;
The catching prospect is 26 years-old and has been in 3 ML games in his life – with 4 PA’s and 2 innings behind the plate.
I saw his 2022 AAA stats and he batted over .300, had slugging percentage north of .800, and slugged 6 homers in 60 games. For me he’s the exciting piece in the trade despite his age.
The catcher is probably the least useful of the three. The other two could actually help the Tigers this year.
I hope they can adjust to hitting in CoPa, that would be one of my biggest concerns.
Actually, I think Maton is the most likely to have a productive MLB career, and he could be just the third baseman the Tigers need.
I disagree. Vierling’s 97th percentile speed is exactly what works in CoPa. Maton’s high walk rate won’t suffer in CoPa. These are guys Harris picked to succeed more on the Tigers than they would have with limited opportunities on the Phils.
Speed means nothing if you can’t field, run the bases or get on base. Jacoby Jones had speed. Maton is a much more well rounded player.
Phillies fan here. Maton is the best of this bunch imo.
Filling holes and building a successful sustainable contending MLB team are 2 different things.
Sure, but there’s no reason the Tigers can’t do both. I’d say they’re off to a promising start.
I’ve gone from neutral to plus=Tigers on this deal. Hare to fool ol DD but it seems Harris got one of the players Dave didn’t really want to deal. Yeah, he got Kody Clemens….good luck with that, DD. I don’t watch Detroit closers and haven’t for years….who needs that kind of stress after hitting their 70’s? I don’t want to believe Harris is going to trade Meadows, especially with his brother a year away from playing CF.in Detroit….yeah, you heard it here first. Parker Meadows is bigger than Austin and faster than Riley Greene. I like Kerry Carpenter in LF and Ryan Kreidler in the INF…Schoop has always hit but might move to 3B now that he can’t play a shallow RF at 2B. If they can talk Baez into standing in the batter’s box instead of the on-deck circle, maybe they can salvage a decent return on their investment with him.. But if it were up to me it would be him moving to 3B and Kreidler, a fluid and much more consistent SS in that spot. If Harris trades Tork I will disavow ever being a Tiger fan and find a new team.
So, Ol’-Timer….you must be thinking Torkelson is at the minimum another Pete Alonso. It would end your lifelong fan association if he is traded.
Why?
For one thing, the other teams have paid attention. What would they offer? A trade is unlikely due to that.
For another, he’s not going to make you forget Norm Cash. He is shaping up to be a lesser Steve Bilko.
Aahhhh…Stormin’ Norman Cash. Holder of the ML record for most HR’s in a career without hitting a walk off.
I did not know that – and thought I had that guy’s deal nailed up to and including what he wore when he slipped off the dock…
High level of certainty about a guy that hasn’t had 1,000 professional PAs yet. He 530 last year in the minors and despite well documented struggles at new levels he posted a .935 OPS. Miggy had almost 1,500 PAs in the minors before promotion. Trout had 1,200 before a fall call up where he posted a forgettable .672 OPS on 135 PAs. He was simply rushed to fast and needs to build confidence and consistency. The new coaching should help. Remember that JD Martinez had 3 craptastic seasons and 1,000 MLB PAs with the Astros before he found mechanics that worked. They cut him, Avila signed him and he went on to be one of best hitters in the league. Every reason to believe Tork can do the same with time. Trading him would be idiotic because you’d get nothing in return. He’d be Issac Paredes only worse.
The last quote from Harris about IF/OF-utility players with MLB experience being rare is simply laughable. He non-tendered Harold and Willi Castro a few weeks ago, who both fit the description. Another specimen, and a clearly better one, is Profar who is still available.
Soto was controllable for another three years. I still cannot believe the Tigers pulled the trigger now just to fill up their roster – after multiple veteran FAs could have been signed. Soto may become worse, but this is not an enticing return anyway.
Now the last LHP short-inning reliever is gone (Alexander was often employed as a starter/swingman). But the Tigers still don’t want to promise to fill that void with a major-league FA. Whatever their plan may be, I find it hard to imagine that I like it.
Gruß,
BSHH
Profar would fill the bench spot well, but he doesn’t want to be a bench guy, and he wants to be paid like a starter. He’s is a FA, but his ceiling is average at best.
What’s simply laughable is your consistent overconfidence in your opinions.
Harold was a poor defender, poor speed, poor power, and never walked. No team has picked him up, do you think that might be for a reason?
Wili got a minor league contract.
He meant well rounded players – not just players that can play multiple positions. Common sense should tell you that. Does it honestly make any sense to you that he would cut the type of players he’s looking for? Think!
These guys are much cheaper, and controllable for years. Patching a team with a bunch of middle tear free agents accomplishes very little.The idea is to build a long term, sustainable winner – not just patching holes to appease ignorant fans.
Also, why would we pick up profar when we just acquired 2 players who can play outfield and infield?
Learn a little self awareness and humility.
@bshh It’s so pretentious and annoying the way you feel you have to ‘sign’ every comment.
What the hell is GRUB? I see him sign this all the time. No clue what the hell that signature is.GRU beta?
Gee are you a beta?!!?
Its German Gruss = Greetings. Germans say Tchuss = bye upon departure. I only worked in Germany one year so my German is poor.
Soto should help the Phillies, although I’d expect some regression in 2023. Vierling has upside, so trading Soto for him is the type of move the Tigers should make at this point.
Harris meant that it’s hard to find someone who can play infield and outfield well. Certainly, neither of the Castros could, that’s why Harris got rid of them.
Willi Castro was going to be the SS of the future and he was turning into a pretty good OFer too. I don’t think you’re heard the last from him if he dumps the golf swing he got from Hinch/Coolbaugh and swings level like he did in ’21. Harold? I have no idea what his agent is asking but I’m surprised he hasn’t been signed by now….Harold can hit and in my opinion was the best hitter on that disaster of a team last year.. Versatility is overrated in my book…it’s promoted as a cure-all for a poorly constructed team.
Agree about Harold Castro.
ss of the future? Have you seen his defense? You clearly don’t know the game if you think that. Try doing a little research before embarrassing yourself.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Willi becomes the best FA signing this year. He needs a consistent position.
The rising salaries in baseball can only hurt the Tigers rebuilding efforts. Who will want to stay ? I have to believe the starting pitching will be starting to move this year too. Turnbull will be the big test case. With his age he only has one good shot at free agency, can the Tigers pull a Atlanta, and lock guys up or do they move them ?
I think the Tigers will continue to move guys as they come close to free agency. Trading with D.D was good too, as he will move guys for immediate help at the major level. Turnbull is war positive, and he should fetch a good young hitter in return too. He’s a number one on a Detroit team, but he;d be lights out as a back rotation guy on a good hitting team. Can the Tigers mimic Atlanta, or will a Oakland be its style ?
Harris let Funkhouser slip away….he signed a minor league deal with Texas a couple days ago. This is what you get with a college pitching coach who had no idea what the stress of relieving would have on a young career starter. Funk wasn’t about to complain out loud…he was finally in The Show….but it was probably a different story in his hotel room at night. He pretty much literally pitched his arm off….nice job, Fetter….don’t do it to Mize, Turnbull, Manning, and Skubal….wait, you already have.
Maton has the ability to start. If he stayed with the Phillies, he’d have been a 2 day a week player at best. Vierling is a proven defensive asset and can play most days of the week preferably in a platoon role to maximize his plate production.
Ironically, this does leave the Phillies with a bench hole and I would sign former tigers and current free agents Harold Castro and Robbie Grossman to very affordable contracts and invite them to spring training. Don’t know much about Kody Clemens but left handed hitting utility guys are always a plus, if anyone remembers Greg Dobbs, he made a nice career in Philly and helped a few post season teams and a WS team firm up a bench.
I wouldn’t get my hopes up too high with Kody C. I think he led the NCAA in HRs the year he was drafted and he slipped to the 3rd round for the Tigers. His power disappeared as a pro. He does not look like even an average ML hitter.
It will be interesting to see how they deploy Vierling and Maton. Reading the posts from Phillies fans helps me better appreciate what they are potentially going to bring to the table. Maton seems more interesting but I wonder if he will audition for 2b or 3b? Some articles think the new rules could negatively impact Schoop at 2b and he could be moved to 3b. I think his hitting will bounce back. Like some of you I also think (hope) they will sell off some other parts either before spring training or at the deadline. To me any of the projected starting 5 at the start of the season could be trade fodder at the deadline or before if things go well. Despite his in season issues Rodriguez pitched well enough to get back some interesting players in the current pitching market before spring training. If any of Boyd, Lorenzen or Turnbull have a good first half I think they are go e at the deadline. Manning could also be worth a haul, but that is a little more of a dicey proposition and it would really have to be the right package. I think some of the Tigers AA and AAA pitchers will be ready for the show in the next 2 seasons and stick for the long term. If Meadows is good to go and there is a good market for LH OF I hope they would listen…his bat can help this year but he is a DH in waiting at the end of the day. I’m not sold on his bro Parker either. If Harris can retool on the fly with an eye towards being more competitive in 2024 and beyond instead of another rebuild I’m all for it. I think Gorman, Winn and Burleson from Stl would sure look good on the Tigers team in 2 years!
Philly is going for a lockdown 7-8-9 bullpen and Detroit is going for an “if given the chance….” group of players which could work out for them. It is smaller scale, but it reminds me of the Julio Franco et al to the Indians trade for Von Hayes.
Yawn !
Not really a Soto fan, but he should have brought back more than two AAAA players and a lottery ticket catcher. Time will tell.
Maton seems to be more than a AAAA player, not sure about Vierling.
It’s going to be a long season for Tigers’ fans.
I expect the Tigers to improve on last year’s numbers, but I agree that they probably won’t reach .500 this year.
At first glance, I don’t like trade, but I will give Harris benefit of the doubt. Could Tigers look at bringing back Fulmer? I know he is RH but did a good job out of pen and seemed to be well liked in clubhouse
FYI Dave Dombrowski knows Gregory Soto better than most
since he signed him as a young player in 2012 when he was Pres of Baseball Ops with the Tigers.
So this is a safe bet like money in the bank for the Phillies unless he gets hurt etc.
The Tigers are also getting some interesting, promising, young, low cost players in return.
“Win/Win” deal for both sides!