Though the free-agent market has been largely picked over and the trade market is similarly thin on starting pitchers, Orioles general manager Mike Elias said in a weekend appearance on 105.7 FM The Fan that he still hopes to add another starter to his team (link via Nathan Ruiz of the Baltimore Sun). While Elias voiced confidence in his collection of young arms and the “upside and good variability” the group can bring to the table, there’s little getting around the issue that the Orioles’ projected rotation is light on MLB experience, to say the least.
Baltimore effectively swapped out 2022 innings leader Jordan Lyles for an older Kyle Gibson, declining a net $10MM decision on the former (buying out an $11MM option for $1MM) and then signing Gibson at that same $10MM price point. The widespread expectation at the time was that Gibson would be just one of multiple additions to the starting staff; Elias had spoken about a looming payroll increase and the O’s were (and still are) lacking in experienced complements.
That hasn’t played out, however. The Orioles have been tied to several starters over the course of the offseason, most notably including Jameson Taillon, but the team’s free-agent pursuits thus far have come up empty. Elias suggested that the O’s have “had some very close opportunities” with regard to the free-agent market but that those targets “just went in a different direction.” One rumored Orioles target, Michael Wacha, remains unsigned — though it’s not clear whether there have been recent, substantive talks. Given that he’s coming off a 3.32 ERA in 127 2/3 innings last year, Wacha seems likely to be hoping for a multi-year pact, which is something the Orioles haven’t given out to any free agent since Elias took over as general manager.
Behind Gibson, the Orioles’ only starters with even a year of MLB service time are lefties John Means and Bruce Zimmermann, plus righties Austin Voth, Tyler Wells, Dean Kremer and Spenser Watkins. Means won’t be back from Tommy John surgery until summer at the earliest, and Zimmermann carries a 5.65 ERA in 145 MLB frames. Wells and Kremer both posted low strikeout rates and strong walk rates in 20-plus starts for Baltimore in 2022, likely making them favorites for starting work in 2023. Voth was quietly very good after being picked up from the Nationals, pitching to a 2.94 ERA in 79 2/3 frames with Baltimore. Watkins had solid results for much of the season despite his own lack of missed bats, but he faded quite a bit down the stretch last year.
The O’s have several top-end prospects looming, with Grayson Rodriguez chief among them. The right-hander is considered one of the sport’s premier minor league arms, but he also missed much of the 2022 season with a lat strain. Rodriguez threw just 75 2/3 innings last year and has never reached 110 innings in a pro season. Southpaw DL Hall was used as a reliever in his big league debut and has had some prominent command struggles in the minors despite also missing bats at a prodigious rate. Elsewhere on the 40-man roster, righties Kyle Bradish and Mike Baumann and lefty Drew Rom represent additional candidates. Both Bradish and Baumann have already pitched in the Majors.
Generally speaking, it’s a thin group in terms of proven innings and workload. Adding another arm is sensible, though Elias alluded to the fact that the thin market for starters has created a growing focus on the trade market throughout the league. The Marlins no longer look all that likely to deal from the rotation after trading Pablo Lopez to the Twins — GM Kim Ng said it’d be difficult for Miami to move another starter now — and the market isn’t teeming with other options. The Mariners have a pair of possibilities in Chris Flexen and Marco Gonzales, and speculatively speaking, Elias was with the Astros front office while they were developing Adrian Houser, who looks like he’s been pushed out of a rotation job in Milwaukee. The Mets have reportedly been open to offers on Carlos Carrasco at times this winter, too, and there are surely other veteran arms quietly drawing various degrees of interest around the sport.
On the whole, it’s been a very quiet offseason for the Orioles, who’ve added a quartet of veterans on short-term. Gibson (one year, $10MM), Adam Frazier (one year, $8MM) and Mychal Givens (one year, $5MM) all signed as free agents, while the O’s acquired James McCann to back up Adley Rutschman behind the plate (taking on two years and $5MM of McCann’s remaining contract in the process). That gives the Orioles a projected $63MM payroll, per Roster Resource, which falls right in line with their end-of-season total in 2022.
That payroll projection runs counter to Elias’ August comments, wherein he indicated that the team’s plan was to “significantly escalate the payroll.” Elias said this past Friday that it’s been a “competitive winter” in terms of player acquisition, suggesting the O’s have had more irons in the fire but not yet pulled through additional signings/trades of note. He added that he and his staff remain focused on improving the roster between now and the start of spring training, though obviously the clock is ticking on that goal and many avenues to accomplish it have already been closed.
Motor City Beach Bum
Send some of that minor league middle infield glut and OF surplus the Tigers way for Eduardo Rodriguez.
Travis’ Wood
Why would the orioles do that lol
mlb1225
Tigers are gonna be the ones including prospects if they want to trade him.
miltpappas
Tiggers way overpaid for the always-absent E-Rod. I mean, I like the guy and he “can” pitch very well. When he can show up at the office.
dpsmith22
The lack of any real improvement in the rotation, shows that Elias does not believe we are a true playoff contender. we probably need 2 more starters to get through the season.
Kershaw's Lesser Known Right Arm
It’s probably a lot about the Angelos too
KingOmar
That’s a lie. The reality is this was a very competitive, expensive offseason – and the O’s, from the sounds of it, couldn’t keep up. FAs have to agree to sign with a team, duh. It’s not one-sided.
Travis’ Wood
Their offseason has been a complete disaster and failure by their front office. No way around it.
CleaverGreene
Not an Oriole fan, but they need to spend a little money this year, 63M is outrageously cheap for a contending team. They get more than that in TV money and revenue sharing.
joblo
After stealing that TV money from the Nationals.
Big whiffa
Complete disaster ! Couldn’t agree more !
A mullins extension was a necessity to any sort of success and it hasn’t been brought up all offseason. Plus they missed an opportunity to fleece Miami for Lopez. Terribly ran franchise !
Ra
Not sure I agree that they are a “terribly RUN franchise” – Elias has built an incredible number of top prospects. But Lopez is way overrated; I wouldn’t be surprised if he misses significant time with an arm injury this season.
However, they should trade for a starter like Cabrera/Luzardo;/Garrett Lauer/Houser; Snell; Carrasco, etc. Hopefully, they still will.
Ra
Also disagree about a Mullins extension. They should be signing Gunnar to a 10 year deal.
Big whiffa
The reds have a slew of prospects and draft well yet they are ran terribly. And most prospects don’t pan out.
I’m not a huge mullins fan, but he’s best player available willing to take Os money. Great place to start !
Ra
I don’t know whether the Reds are RUN terribly, but the Orioles are not RUN terribly. English matters.
Neither you nor I have any idea whether Mullins would sign an extension. But he is nowhere near the “best player available to take the Orioles money.” Long term extensions for Gunnar and maybe Adley are far smarter investments than committing to a speedy outfielder’s 30+ years. Most speedsters lose speed in their 30s, which would deflate Mullins value tremendously. As it is, Mullins’ sprint speed dropped last year; he is now only 80th percentile according to Baseball Savant. Mullins would be a better candidate for trade than extension.
Ra
Mullins Speed Percentile Rankings:
2020 92nd percentile
2021 86th
2022 80th
I would not extend him. But he does have value currently.
MacGromit
Wish the Fish would have taken Mullins for Jesus Lozardo and maybe a Single A lottery ticket from their minors. I’m afraid of holding Mullins too long while limiting ABs for the OF kids in the minors. That having been said,maybe the pitch clock and slightly larger bags will up Cedric’s stolen base numbers before the break and we can deal him at the deadline.
Samuel
MacGromit;
Who do the Orioles have that can play CF anywhere near as well as Mullins?
He gets on base. Steals bases. Hits and hits with power at times. Is a clutch player and a smart one.
Were he made available at least half the teams in MLB would be making generous offers.
Big whiffa
So we agree that no free agent of notoriety will sign currently in Baltimore then if a different in house option is the best player they can sign right ? Bc that matters when judging a franchises ability and leadership.
Mullins is more likely to sign then either gunner or Adley due to what u said about each player.
And if u don’t extend him, then his peak trade value is today. So if Os aren’t going for it – why are they holding onto an aging player at his peak value ? He’s one of the best leadoff hitters in league playing a premium position. He has tremendous value on the trade market.
So when Baltimore has no clue what to do with mullins, don’t extend any of their talent, don’t sign enough free agents to compete in AL East – then that means they have no clue what they are doing.
And assuming it’s same ownership- they didn’t sign any of their last slew of great talent either (machado, Britton, gausman, +).
How much more evidence do u need ??
Big whiffa
Spot on Sam ! O’s fans don’t see a lot of talent so they got no clue what to do w it
Ra
Marlins could not get Mullins for Luzardo. Luzardo and ECabrera, sure.
Ra
Who agreed that no FA “of notoriety” would sign with Baltimore? Nobody. But the very top FAs like Verlander are looking to win the WS this year. Money would have talked for Eovaldi, etc. if the Orioles had presented the most money. Neither of us knows the offers they made but Boras said the Orioles were involved in FA negotiations and aggressive.
They should sell high on Mullins. Keeping him is OK too; he is valuable to a team that would like to earn a playoff spot. There is no indication the Orioles are not “go(ing) for it,” meaning a playoff berth. Extending him is stupid. The team has prospects who will be able to cover much more ground in 2024 than Mullins will be able to and hit better too.
The Elias regime has a calculated strategy to improve the team for today and the future and they have not deviated from the choreography they plotted.
Judging the current Front Office’ baseball acumen based on the last FO’s decisions is a fools errand. Meanwhile, the owner who had his hand is signings circa 2016 is incapacitated now and no longer part of the decision making process. This reminds me a person mocking Guernica because they claim the painter is astigmatic. A little research would help avoid indefensible statements.
Big whiffa
Or it’s the Orioles. Not worthy of a google search. None the less. Thx fir info
Ra
Imagining it’s better to spout ignorant claims and be proven wrong instead of doing a google search is the height of laziness. Wallow in it, fine, but don’t waste our time with uninformed rantings. You have shown you don’t have the knowledge of Baltimore’s franchise to make a worthwhile comment about it.
Samuel
Disagree totally.
This is not rotisserie baseball. The O’s are hardly in a “win now or else” mode. They don’t even know how most of they players will adjust to MLB. Why should they trade off what well could be potential stars for overpaid veterans on their way downhill? They’re not the Jays or the 2010-2019 Yankees. Picnicking for no reason.
Read Sunday nights Chat Transcript. Mark Polishuk got it right. The Astros came out of their rebuild in 2015. Yet the following offseason they didn’t make many moves. They wanted to let their youngsters have playing time. Those Astros are now contending in their 9th straight year; have won 2 championships; and constantly gotten to the playoffs. Mr. Elias and Mr. Mejdal were there with the Astros. They know what they’re doing.
O’s fans don’t need to become permanent kvetches like Yankee and Red Sox fans. Most of the ones I’ve seen at Camden Yards are excited about 2023.
mt in baltimore
You betray your ignorance w commentary like that.
KingOmar
Rols1026 continues to impress with his stupidity.
stymeedone
Eduardo is not being traded. He’s likely the Tigers opening day starter.
Milwaukee-2208
Houser for Jackson Holliday?
Travis’ Wood
Ummmm joke?
Milwaukee-2208
Yeah maybe the Os would have to add another high level guy? Thoughts?
Travis’ Wood
You’re not funny…?
Ra
Some people really need to leave comedy to the professionals.
gorav114
Sure, just throw in that Burnes guy
Ra
Not trading Holliday for 2 years of Burnes.
gorav114
…and Houser. It wasn’t literal
Ra
I knew it was Houser and Burnes you alluded to. But, yeah, not trading 6 or more years of future Holliday for 2 years of nowadays Burnes. plus however many of Houser (not even going to bother looking him up).
tstats
Thats a steal of a deal. No clue telling how Holliday pans out. If you could trade and sign Burnes for just 1 minor league player you should do it.
rememberthecoop
Excuses, excuses. This was their chance to make a statement, but they are too damn cheap. No reason they couldn’t have acquired a frontline starter, but Elias is so risk adverse. Look at what the Cubs did with Lester. By doing that, they not only added a winner & experienced staff ace; they also used it as an opportunity to announce that the rebuild was over and it was time to win That sends a message to the team and can be valuable in so many ways. I am not a fan of the Birds, but I really feel they missed a chance, and now they will suffer through a .500 type of season with that rotation, unless they get really lucky.
Ra
Not sure it is wholly about Elias being risk adverse. Could be that ownership tied his hands about offering contracts longer than, say, three years.
RedFraggle
They’re a year ahead of schedule. 2022 was supposed to be another rebuilding year and players over performed.. You’re overreacting.
KingOmar
That rotation almost got them into the playoffs. Frontline starters clearly wanted big, fat, long contracts this offseason. O’s couldn’t swing it. Takes two to tango. Duh.
Jim Carter
I’ve been “tied” to some lottery tickets, but I have nothing to show for it. Just the same lip service we’ve heard before.
Bird4Life
Does that projected payroll include arbitration increases? There’s like 5 or 6 guys that are increasing their salaries 2x-4x what it was last year
AssumesFactNotInEvidence
Yes, it includes arbitration increases for all six arbitration players. It projects Voth at 1.85M.
Does your browser not allow you to access fan graphs?
SODOMOJO
The O’s have really bummed me out this past offseason. They were right there! Great team chemistry and depth; they were missing a big piece on offense and a big upgrade to the staff….and yet there’s been crickets over the past few months. They will likely nose dive in 2023 with the roster as is. Too bad man, it’s a real shame. A scrappy group with a good skipper.
AssumesFactNotInEvidence
They bummed me out when they trade Jorge and Trey.
Elias has problems being truthful…
Ra
They inspired me when they dumped Mancini – whom they were never going to sign as a free agent – and acquired SP top prospect Seth Johnson and McDemott as well as trading the magic beans of Jorge Lopez – who sucked post-trade almost as much as Trey did – for SP prospect Cade Povich and exciting young fireballers Juan Nunez and Juan Rojas.
Elias CRUSHED in those trades.
Ra
Also, when has Elias lied? I would like to see the quotes.
BStrowman
Why would the team nosedive with the same exact roster? You’d think some of the young players will improve and more are on the way.
The pitching market was extremely expensive. The O’s weren’t going to match NY on Rodon. Taillon got way more than most people thought also. I would’ve liked to have seen another arm added already but at these prices—I’d rather save that money and go shopping at the deadline if the team is in contention. Plenty of payroll flexibility and prospects to do so. Gives the team more time to sort out the young players and determine which are trade chips & which are pillars.
Ra
They should have beaten the Rodon offer. But that doesn’t mean Rodon would have signed with them.
RedFraggle
Rodon wanted to go yo the Yankees. Syndergaard wanted to go yo LA. You can’t compete with something like that.
slimray
rodon is a waste of 162 mil.the yanks will find that out.im a yankee fan and i wish the orioles did get rodon.rodon is a 4th starter at best.we let taillon go who had more wins and innings for rodon.if you fans in baltimore think you have issues with disaster in the front office.look at our horrible front office in ny.i hope the yanks win the division but the truth is any team in al east can take the division.
Ra
Baltimore’s Front Office is fantastic. No one doubts Elias’ and Sig’s acumen at scouting and development.
But ownership, it seems, may be hamstringing the team’s progression via overly burdensome financial constraints.
Ra
Same with Verlander. It would have been a coup for Baltimore to have beaten the Mets’ offer and to have signed him at 2/$90MM. But he was never going to contemplate going to the Orioles or half the other teams in MLB.
Ra
slimray: I am doubtful about Boston’s chances of winning the division. They are horrendous defensively. And not the great otherwise. Toronto looks like a good bet.
MacGromit
Agreed Ra,
Connor Newcomb of Locked On is likely right in his rant about the best thing for O’s fans is a sale of the team from the Angelo’s drama. I wasn’t so sure until John’s little hissy fit on MLK. The Warehouse front office could probably actually do their jobs without having walk back “liftoff” quotes if we weren’t living a second generation of ownership being the problem.
Ra
It makes no sense that adding the highest prospects in the game in Gunnar and GROD would cause an 83 win team to “nosedive.” That’s foolish talk.
SODOMOJO
Gunnar and Grayson are great looking prospects. But now, the success of this team is DEPENDENT on them taking a big first step into the league.
This is really my big point. I feel as though this team has the core and makings of a contender for the next 5-7 years. 2023? They need EVERYBODY to hit. They have less depth, no dangerous big bopper in the lineup, and they NEED Grayson to be the instant 2 next to Means.
I’m really not seeing it for you guys this year, man. But hey. If they win more than 83, I’ll be the first to admit my underestimation!
KingOmar
… no big bopper? Mountcastle and Santander are apparently nothing eh? Have you… even looked at Mountcastle’s average exit velo? He had an incredibly unlucky year. You’ll be eating your words.
SODOMOJO
Hey man, I like both of those players! I would be happy to plug either one of them into the M’s lineup. But they combined for 3.4 war last year. Now, what if they fail to combine for that this year? Maybe one of them gets nicked up, maybe an off year. That loss of production could be potentially catastrophic.
But again, Santander and Mountcastle are both great players! Personally, I agree that Mounty is due for a bit of a stat bump this year….but I do think it could be tough for Santander to match the 30+ songs he put up last year.
Time will tell!
Ra
You had said the Orioles “will likely nose dive in 2023.” Now you have walked that back to “If they win more than 83, I’ll be the first to admit my underestimation!” That’s quite the difference. Which do you want to stake your claim on? “Nosedive,” as in losing 90 games? Or the only way you will have underestimated the team is if they win more than 83. Can’t really tell what you are trying to predict.
PS: the Orioles won 83 without GROD of Gunnar (for the most part) without being DEPENDENT on their production.
N.B. Means will not be the #1 out of ST as he is recovering from TJ. He may be rejoining the team ~ August.
SODOMOJO
“Sigh.” Is this a character defamation of me? Or can we talk baseball; maybe sometimes even speaking with “gasp” hyperbole? For conversations sake?
You’re right. My statement may have been a bit extreme. I really don’t think anything I said was egregious, and not sure why you’re up my butt; to each their own.
Ra
Sorry if that came off harsh. But you did seem to be saying two different things.
SODOMOJO
I do think they run the risk of nose diving. For all the reasons I mentioned above. If you’d like to argue my points above; feel free.
My prediction: they win 80 games. A couple injuries….they could lose way less. They are not built for a deep run in 2023, imo
SODOMOJO
*could win way less
Ra
I think even you would agree that your “prediction: they win 80 games” is entirely different than a “likely nosedive.”
True, they “could win way less,” but if we are going to parse predictions then you could really CYA by saying “they could win more” in addition. 🙂
So would you like to stick with the Orioles will finish within a couple games of .500? That seems like a reasonable prediction. Or “nosedive,” like you originally said (90+ losses would qualify). Not being combative but I think it is fair that you choose one, not both.
Ra
btw: there are a couple of players who could have major impacts offensively in 2023. Baseball America claims OF Kyle Stowers has the best power in the system and IF Jordan Westburg had a huge year at AAA last year. Some think Westburg should have been the plan at 2B this year and that signing Frazier was a terrible decision that is blocking numerous prospects: Westburg, Joey Ortiz (who mashed last year also and is a highly polished glove) and pure hitter Connor Norby … all three Top 100 prospects. Others say hit-first Terrin Vavra would be more productive than Frazier.
I’m not sure I would agree that Stowers really has the best power in the org. Nor would I necessarily advocate for a pure rookie like Westburg/Ortiz?Norby be handed the starting 2B job out of ST. My point is that there may be better offensive producers on the verge of promotion than there was on the FA market. Better than spending $18MM on Bellinger or counting on Brantley to be healthy enough to play or JD to prove he is not washed up. Even Abreu’s power outage makes people wonder whether he is declining before our eyes. Tossing huge bucks and long-term commitment at 5-HR Benintendi (5/$75MM) seems like a foolish commitment with Top 100 Colton Cowser in competition to break camp with the team and AFL MVP masher Heston Kjerstad looking like the elite LH power bat people envisioned before being sidelined with myocarditis.
We all know that not all prospects can make the ultimate jump and some get hurt. But if three or four of those seven players who have performed well enough to earn a shot at the MLB level pan out, it would be a windfall for the team. Of those, if one or two break through this year, they may be able to provide greater offensive production than those FAs the team didn’t sign.
RutschDisciple
While I would have liked to see them commit more to adding some vets the Orioles still have a very talented young team, with a loaded farm system. They will snag a wildcard this year and will be in competition for the division title.
SODOMOJO
I really think you guys are a year or two away; but your boy Adley taking a big step could shut guys like me up real quick!
rememberthecoop
Or if they had actually spent some money, then they wouldn’t have to rely on luck.
MacGromit
It’s not that binary. How did the Sale or Strausburg money insulate the BoSox or Nats from needing luck? Every team needs a bit of luck to capture lightning in a bottle and win the WS.
RedFraggle
Don’t forget Gunnar
Travis’ Wood
Lol. No. Much better chance they’re 10 games under .500. Their pitching is awful and their position players aren’t great besides Rustchman and maybe Henderson…
Tigers3232
Mountcastle, Mullins, Santander, and Hays might not all b great. They are all above average hitters though. Os lineup has a ton of potential.
RedFraggle
Check out Mountcastle on his Savant page.
Thornton Mellon
Tigers – agree.
OPS on all 4 you named turn out to be above average but all 4 are flawed hitters.
Mountcastle – strikes out a lot, prone to slumps, probably .250-.265 and 20-27 HR is what you’d expect.
Santander – this was a sell high opportunity missed, IMO. I don’t think he gets 33 HR again. Low average/OBP.
Mullins – career year was 2021. Fast, yes, but OBP is below average. A little pop. Would be a good #2 hitter if they had a true leadoff guy and true power in #3 and #4.
Hays – last 2 season its what you see is what you get, 15-20 HR, .250 BA and .300 OBP
If Rutschman continues to develop AND they had a true leadoff guy and dependable power you can see this being a very good lineup. But as it stands its a scratch and claw to hopefully get to average – including 2022’s 97OPS+, high strikeouts, low OBP Obviously they are hoping ALL the prospects develop…again
Ra
Want to lay odds on the Orioles winning 72 or fewer games vs. qualifying for a playoff spot.
Cuz I’d be interested depending on how much of a “better chance” you would be willing to wager on.
slimray
ra ,how can i get a hold of you to make that bet?ill put 100 that they win 82 or better.
Ra
You want to reach out to rols1026 for the odds. Reread the above. You are confused in thinking I claimed they would win under 73 games.
KingOmar
Ra is an idiot.
Ra
You misread too, huh? Reading is fundamental. Take it up with rols1026 about his prediction that the Orioles fall to 72 wins. We can all bet him.
slimray
i 100%agree
Buzz Killington
Mike Elias has done a really good job. Orioles aren’t a dumpster fire like say the Tigers anymore.
Jim Carter
If besting the Tigers is the only goal, then the fan base will be disappointed.
CptJack
Never use a comma before too.
kfvynziam
Preach
HBan22
Really should have snagged one of the Marlins starters. They matched up well with them for a deal.
danbunty25
I think the Dbacks could be a good trade fit too
RutschDisciple
They’ll snag a wildcard easily by virtue of the schedule balancing, swapping 7 games each against the the Yankees Jays and Rays for the Reds Rockies and Marlins will generate more wins guaranteed.
Ra
It’s possible they earn a playoff spot but other teams benefit from the less-imbalanced schedule too. I would say more wins is not guaranteed.
RutschDisciple
Plus full seasons from Rutschman Henderson and Rodriguez, with more talent looming in the upper minors, the O’s are gonna be a force this year. Look for them to make a big deadline acquisition.
RutschDisciple
As for the front office, they have been very methodical at developing our new core. Building the same way the Astros did while they were tanking and Elias was the assistant gm once the kids have cemented themselves as stars the team will trade for pitching, they’re set up to be perennial contenders but what I worry about is Angelos and how far they’ll let the budget stretch.
CarverAndrews
Phillies fan here, but the Orioles have been my AL team since the Palmer / Cuellar / Brooks and Frank Robinson days. Peter Angelos took most of the pleasure out of following the team for such a long time; hoping that John isn’t as bad.
Good to see that there are solid hints that Elias has enough juice to get a few things done, and they might be back competing again in the AL East.
Ra
Hi Neighbor. Nice to see the Palmer et al. love. Will be traveling out East to your town for a funeral later this week.
Peter was meddling but did spend most of the time he was in charge. Worried about John’s stewardship. It seems he has put handcuffs on Elias making commitments longer than a year or two. Couple that with the meeting with Goldman Sachs and some could speculate a sale is coming. Though that might not necessarily be a bad thing, considering the team is not moving.
southern lion
Wacha could help Baltimore and it wouldn’t break the bank either. IMO.
Ra
At this point, a 1/$10MM deal like Gibson’s seems like it would benefit, if only by eating innings and buying more time for Means to return to health, to develop starters like Povich and the recovering Seth Johnson or acquire SPs through trades
RedFraggle
Wacha isn’t good though.
Ra
Nor is Gibson.
Ra
But supposedly Gibson added a sweeper slide in September that led to a bunch of whiffs.
BStrowman
Steve , you make Kyle Bradish seem like an option and not a lock.
He’s an absolute lock for a rotation spot. Kremer, Gibson, and Bradish are the 3 absolute locks.
I expect Voth takes a slot as well. If we sign a guy then Wells get pushed to the pen.
BStrowman
Voth/Wells could do the piggyback thing too if Wacha or someone else is brought in.
There’s no way you watched much orioles baseball but Kyle Bradish was our best starter in the 2nd half. I think out of all of our starters who pitched last year—he’s the most likely to see significant gains in his overall numbers.
Ra
If Bradish swaps out his 4-seamer for his sinker – which has more vertical downward movement and clocks in at 1 MPH more – he could have a breakthrough season. Very excited to see his pitch usage and the results if he incorporates this change.
BStrowman
@Ra absolutely. We really have some of the best guys in the business running analytics so you can be sure they’re passing that data along.
I’d be shocked if it wasn’t incorporated. Pretty excited about Bradish.
tstats
Actually there was a study and used Bradish as someone whose pitches move too much apart (slider and sinker) and suggested he should add a cutter to the rep to blend the movement types (and bridge velos) in order to make the hitter have to have three guesses ready.
Ra
Got a link? I’m interested.
Familiar with @Os_Analytics) / Twitter?
tstats
prospectslive.com/prospects-live/2022/8/23/the-mys…
And no, I am not on Twitter
Ra
Nor am I on Twitter but that is the handel of the person who did the analysis on Bradish’s FB and sinker success (or lack thereof) that I based my comment on. You do not need a Twitter account to read the thread on the subject: twitter.com/Os_Analytics/status/159764285928014233…
Ra
I am aware of tunneling. Good read. But I do not see Bradish mentioned. Was there a different article talking about Bradish.
I did see mention of Matt Brash of the Mariners.
Ra
*handle. Not the Baroque composer.
Ra
sss and all, but Bradish xWOBA against his 4seam was .398 with an expected wSLG of 517 (!!!)
Versus the sinker, wOBA was .318 and wSLG was a mere .292.
The article references how Corbin Burnes transformed from a mediocre 4seam/slider SP into a dominant Cutter/SI+SL+CH, almost entirely eschewing the 4seam.
tstats
LOL I CONFUSED THE NAMES! You make a very astute point lol.
Ra
That’s the one I would like to read.
In a June Fangraphs interview, Bradish said that his 4Seam was basically a cutter. But I bet things have changed since then.
RedFraggle
Bradish was fantastic when he came back from his MiLB stint.
C Yards Jeff
BStrow, Ra, Red Fraggle, stats; great insight/thread fellas. Thanks. I lost track of Bradish. Looking forward to following his ST journey. Cheers!
southern lion
Dean Kremer beat the Astros last season twice, one of which was a complete game. The O’s young pitchers are not bad.
BStrowman
This is probably the make or break year for DL as a starter though He’s going to be a very valuable pitcher for the O’s either way. But he may wind up as a multi inning bullpen weapon rather than a SP.
I’m not sure the control is going to be there to start. I think he should get an opportunity to sink or swim in the rotation. The O’s could definitely go with a 6 man rotation if Wacha or someone is brought in. Hall hasn’t pitched 100 innings in a year in his career.
I think Wells is better suited for the pen also.
mnnorthernjuice
Dylan Bundy Come Home! Lol
Magnoiabuck
Bundy can’t pitch in the heat and humidity. Give Trevor Bauer a cheap one year deal to redeem himself. Just keep the pretty ladies away.
gary55wv
Look at the Cubs. Added quantity cheaply. Maybe not headliners but couldn’t the Orioles do something like that.
BStrowman
I wouldn’t call Taillon and Swanson “cheap”
Ra
Swanson would have made zero sense for the Orioles. Not sure 4/$68MM would have been a wise acquisition for Taillon, who is the definition of “league average pitcher.” Smyly at 2/$19MM? Maybe. But no way would it make sense for them to get Mancini or Bellinger.
mikep2k
All of those that are commenting that this offseason was a waste only need to look at the offseason of the 2021-2022 Tigers. They had a surprisingly good year in 2021 and then went out and signed Eduardo Rodriguez, Javy Baez and others when their base wasn’t strong enough. While injuries played a part, they now have at least two bulky, unmovable contracts.
Elias knows what he’s doing. We don’t want to sign players to stupid contracts only to see them be an albatross a year later. I don’t want to fight for a wildcard, I want to fight for the AL East.
jeffk-2
So many arm chair GM’s.
Elias already said they are a year or 2 away from contention. They have a glut of SP and a solid bullpen. Lets see what we have before we start trading. Kramer came out of nowhere last year and who knows who else could do it this year.
User 3595123227
Lol Orioles still want to add to the starting rotation. No they don’t.
Thornton Mellon
I’ve said it several times – they want a “good enough” offense because they don’t want to pay for a great one. They go lights-out in the ‘pen at times because relievers are cheap, and hope the starters are adequate. Its not a complete team.
“We are looking at starters” is lip service, even though a very good starter makes the ENTIRE ROTATION better (your former SP1 now is SP2, SP2 is SP3, etc).
I currently peg them at 79-83, despite the more balanced schedule. They will always be 1-2 years away from really competing with the current approach with last year being about the best that can be hoped for. By the way, I was within 2 wins of my pre-season guess for 5 straight years until 2022.
BStrowman
What top SP were we going to get? Degrom? JV? Rodon?
We weren’t going to match those deals. This team is still extremely young and ahead of schedule. The deadline is there to add. We have trade chips and tons of payroll flexibility. This is where you want to be sitting. I’d like 1 more starter for now and let’s see how the young guys come out. The Yankees have a bloated payroll. The Jays are up there too with little left in the minor leagues. The time is coming.
Thornton Mellon
BStrowman – I’ll counter your question with a question of my own.
Now that they’ve basically missed the boat (maybe Wacha, ok, for a hopefully league average guy for a year or two which they could use)……. what prospects would folks think the Orioles could part with to trade for some SP? The Marlins looked to be a partner, but deals have been done and they may be done shedding starters while the Orioles again sat out.
Teams can – and do, the Orioles have – fall too much in love with their own prospects. In the Orioles case many more have not panned out than turned into something in this century, so “prospect hugging” can cost other opportunities to improve your club. (I know the main reason why they do is because young players are CHEAPER!)
Samuel
Thornton Mellon;
Let me get this straight….
The Orioles are one of the youngest teams in MLB and they have another 6-8 quality prospects in the high minors (with more in the low minors). And yet last season was as good as they’re going to be?
Thornton Mellon
Sorry, been through too many prospects who didn’t turn out to be what they were cracked up to be to guess higher. I call my line of thinking Matuszitis.
There is a lot of ifs and buts and could be’s, but the Orioles will never be the Yankees going into a season knowing they are front running for the pennant.
1. IF G Rodriguez is what he is supposed to be, he COULD have the impact that Mike Mussina did on the rotation when he emerged in 1992.
2. IF A Rutschman continues his trajectory and turns into at least what brass insisted Matt Wieters was going to be circa 2009, this is a leader and a good mid lineup guy for years to come – IF they’ll pay him (I’d try extending him now but his agent is Boras)
3. Same game plan appears to be in force in ’23 – hope the offense is “good enough” and the starting pitching barely adequate so that the bullpen can save them.
4. IF some of these prospects come up – right now G Henderson is the only one with space to have an impact – they COULD overachieve.
I have trouble seeing them winning 90+ games. The last time they did that, they caught a career year from Wieters (until he got hurt) and Machado was exploding (until he got hurt), lucked into 40 HR from Cruz on a prove it deal, got a career year from Steve Pearce, and likely career best years from 3 rotation members. They still needed to be carried by the bullpen because they averaged near the bottom in IP/start.
The time before that winning 90+ games was a maybe .500 team with historic good fortune in 1 run games.
Then you’re back in the mid 90s when they spent to supplement their home grown guys and truly contended. 1997 was the last year I was truly confident going into the season they would contend. In 1998 I made a face when it was Ray Miller in charge – that ended up being totally warranted.
Thornton Mellon
Let me ask you all which team will hold your interest more:
1. A .500 team with guys that you really have to study the team to know who these guys are.
2. A .500 team with a couple superstars in the lineup every day and a couple above average guys to take the ball every 5 days.
#2 is going to put more butts in seats and has a higher ceiling than #1.
lord vincent
When is this upping the payroll going to start. Been a Oriole fan since 1954 and I have to admit the new administration is ruining this club.
dmac
Why not sign wacha to a 2 year deal with club option? Could be 2 year 16 mill or 3 year 25 mill type… and isn’t danny Duffy still available? A 1 year 6-8 million I would think would be enough to get that done if healthy
danbunty25
Does anyone else think that Merrill Kelly or Zac Gallen of the Diamondbacks would make a good fit for the Orioles rotation? Maybe trade a guy like Hays or Urias?
baseballteam
“Orioles considering ways to return to futility.”
MicroMelon
Question to you O’s fans. Would you take Trevor Bauer for 1 year, $720k. Is the juice worth the squeeze?
BStrowman
You say no but the answer is maybe after consulting the leaders in the clubhouse.
Bauer is a D-bag but he’s also a very good pitcher and exactly what the team needs. the problem with Bauer is that he’s arrogant and doesn’t keep his mouth shut.
The orioles are actually the perfect fit though. A team that is on the cusp of the playoffs and needs a TOR arm.
BStrowman
But ultimately you’d have to go no. He thinks he’s the smartest man in every room he’s in too.
It’s really funny that if he would’ve signed a “typical” big free agent contract with an opt out(like anyone else does) he would’ve made so much more money.
Honestly if he were owed 100MM or so—I’m not sure the Dodgers would’ve swallowed the pillow so quickly.
baked mcbride
LET’S GO O’S!!!!!!!
baked mcbride
Hi