Here’s what we’re keeping an eye on to wrap up the week…
1. Winter Meetings start this weekend
The Winter Meetings should see a thaw to the frigid hot stove thus far, and the glacial pace with which the offseason has moved should quicken. The annual meetings take place in San Diego this year between Dec. 4-7 and will bring key baseball operations leaders from all 30 teams, agents and media into one place. Several reports have suggested that AL MVP Aaron Judge could make his decision there, which could help to set the star-studded shortstop market in motion. It’ll also be interesting if top starters Justin Verlander, Jacob deGrom and Carlos Rodon find deals. There could well be blockbuster trades as well, with Oakland catcher Sean Murphy among the likeliest players to be moved this offseason. It’s not just deals either; on the 6th we’ll see the first MLB draft lottery, and that’ll be followed by the Rule 5 Draft on the 7th.
2. Relief market set to move?
It certainly seems so, according to ESPN’s Buster Olney. He reports a “sense among some execs that a wave of second-tier is moving fast and on the cusp of landing deals”, citing the likes of Chris Martin and Miguel Castro as players in that group. Martin snuck onto MLBTR’s Top 50 free agents in 47th place, with a predicted deal of two-years, $14MM. As always, there’s plenty of options in middle-relief. Beyond Martin and Castro, the likes of Seth Lugo, Adam Ottavino, Andrew Chafin, Michael Fulmer, Corey Knebel and Mychal Givens (among many others) remain unsigned at this point.
3. Hall of Fame results coming
On Sunday, the 16-member Contemporary Baseball Era Hall of Fame Committee will vote on eight former big league players to be inducted into the Hall of Fame next summer. The contemporary era comprises players who contributed to the game between 1980 and the present day. The eight players are Albert Belle, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Dale Murphy, Rafael Palmeiro and Curt Schilling. Players who receive more than 75% of the vote from the committee will be slated for induction into Cooperstown next July. This announcement runs separate to the usual Baseball Writers’ Association of America Hall of Fame voting, which will be revealed in January.
McGriff, Dale Murphy and Schilling
That’s the winning ballot right there.
Plus Steve Stone
I loved Dale Murphy but feel he’s a touch short of Hof. schilling is an intriguing case, borderline but just seemingly not well liked, I think crime dog is a no brainer and I’m not sure why he’s had to wait so long
McGriff barely gets into the top 20 first baseman of the expansion era. Murphy was not good for most of his career.
It all depends if you want a one percent Hall of Fame or a three percent Hall of Fame.
If you want a three percent Hall of Fame you could easily make a case for 250 other guys.
Schilling isn’t HOF material but McGriff and Murphy definitely are
What stats are you using to determine schilling isn’t worthy? The only guy with a higher JAWS rating than him not inducted is Clemens
I’m basing my opinion on how radical he’s been since leaving baseball
If they can prohibit players like Rose, Bonds and Clemens for cheating and steroids, Shilling being a racist whack job should prohibit him, too
More fact based commentary from TheMan I see. When did you start your campaign to remove Ty Cobb from the HOF? How much success do you anticipate?
The HOF should be based on what you do on you the field. Schilling was a HOF’er on the field, especially considering his post-season success. Bonds, Clemens, and especially Rose tarnished their on-field production.
Has Schilling done anything to show he’s a racist?
As far as Cobb. Al Stump story was never corroborated, no evidence was supplied, much of his story was debunked, and Stump was a journalistic hack. Although Cobb was great, he was a narcissistic jerk and not well liked, so the lies stood. Gosh, I’m glad so much has changed.
Two of the rules of voting are not dependent on what you do on the field.
HaloFan
Yes, Schilling has proven he is a racist piece of spit. Look at his endorsement of the confederate flag, for starters. His endorsement came from a Christian Nationalist perspective.
Also, look at his response to Adam Jones’ claims of verbal racist abuse during games.
I see we have another liberal here sports fans. He numbers deserve induction.
Almost 80 career WAR and 3000+ strikeouts? What more do you want from Schilling? Lol
And the greatest post season pitcher of all time. Very few people like Schillings politics. He hasn’t actually done anything, but he has said a lot. For many, that’s enough.
For the BBWAA certainly. When you say that journalists should be hung, you are probably not getting the vote of journalists.
@Pads Fans ….Adding one little word (well) to the supposition your comment would get most BBWAA in complete support.
Bonds, Clemens, McGriff (barely), and (gulp) Schilling. Even though I find Schilling a horrible disgusting fascistic human being, he does deserve the Hall of Fame as a player. The character clause does seem to be inconsistently used (how could it not be). We have human beings like Cap Anson and Ty Cobb in the Hall. If Schilling had lived during that time, he likely would have been just as awful as those guys. Maybe none of them deserve it. I am okay with keeping him out. but am okay with people shutting off the moral part of their brain to vote him in.
Mattingly is a hard no. He has Hrbek-esque WAR (slightly hyperbolic) who had an excellent (but by no means legendary) three-year peak. Murphy is borderline, had a longer and better peak than Mattingly, but I think people like Johan Santana and Kenny Lofton deserve it over him. Palmeiro is a shoo-in except he actually tested positive for PEDs after lying about it. I’d put in A-Rod over him (though he is still being voted on).
Bonds and Schilling may very well have used PEDs. It is not definitive and anyone who says it was is lying. There are current HOFers that were likely users. When Clemens and Bonds played there was no teeth to any PED enforcement. They never tested positive after testing became universally enforced. And during the peak PED era, MLB turned a blind eye as they were raking in record profits. They helped encourage it. Clemens is one of the top; five best pitchers to ever play the game and Barry Bonds is the greatest hitter of the post-integration era (which really starts in the 1960s as integration was a slow process — look at the Boston Red Sox, for example), making him the greatest hitter of all-time. His numbers are cartoonish/video game-esque. No one in the history of the game was more feared (maybe Ruth can give a run for the money but he only played against white players).
And what to do with Albert Belle? Behavorial issues dogged his career. His career was better than Mattingly and arguably Murphy though he could not field to save his life. Borderline. I’d eventually say yes.
Who gets into the HOF? I’m thinking maybe Mattingly and Shilling, but I wouldn’t place money on that.
The construction of the ballot and the voting committee selected suggests McGriff.
I agree. There’s only 48 votes (3 per committee panelist) to be spread around. With five controversial players on the ballot, Bonds and Clemens will get some votes as the most qualified, but not enough due to PED use. McGriff stands out as the best of the non-controversial players and I think the panel will reach a consensus to put him in. I wonder if Theo will stump for Schilling though.
Bonds & Clemens should already be in the HOF. Once Bud Selig arranged his own induction, in my opinion, that ended the ‘steroids in the Hall’ debate. If the man that turned-a-blind-eye gets in … of the remaining, I’d vote Mattingly & McGriff (next year Whitaker & Evans).
using your logic, Pete Rose should be there too but as a player not a manager
TheMan – yes, Pete Rose should be in the HOF.
Unpopular opinion: Pete does NOT belong in the hall. Lifelong Reds fan here. He gambled and the rule was very clear before he did so. Lifetime ban. Why should he get off the hook?
Why should shilling wait?
Some people don’t understand the definition of enshrine. Bond, Clemens and Rose, by their actions, disgraced baseball for their own personal gains.
As far as Schilling, if having an opinion disqualifies him, then we should all be afraid. If Schillings actions disqualify him, that’s another thing.
I think Pete has paid his price, it’s time to move on people. I’m not a fan of steroids either, but let’s face it, the powers to be knew what was going on long before it became front and center, again put them in and move on!
They knew, but could not do a thing about it. It took an act of Congress to get testing. Fehr made a complete fool of himself, Selig truthfully said he couldn’t do it without the Union’s approval, and Marvin Miller threw a fit when Fehr capitulated to Congress
Did you watch the hearing?
Rose gambled as a manager not as a player
Rigged – I respect your choice. I think Pete has paid for his crime and MLB looks excessively righteous in its decades-long punishment of Rose. Pete has paid a serious price for his mistakes – it’s time to celebrate the player while still having the discussion of right-and-wrong.
Super DUPER unpopular opinion: Pete Rose doesn’t belong in the HOF because he wasn’t good enough as a player. He just played for a super long time. His career slash line is effectively Kevin Seitzer with an unnaturally long career. No power, below-average defense, highly inefficient base stealing, and only a modestly above-average career OBP. All-time hits leader, yes, but also all-time G, AB, PA, and outs leader. Only should be in the HOF if you greatly prioritize quantity over quality.
and so have a ton of other guys going back to the beginning of the game and the Hall of Fame. Who cares. The Hall should tell the story of baseball. The Hall should be for the best players. Bonds and Clemens were a couple of the best players in history with or without steroids. People who are against them really just like to be get on a pedestal. Judge others not unless you yourself be judged. We all have done things that we regret. As a baseball fan and truthful purist, if I go to the Hall, I want to see all the greats there.
That’s a tough sell, Turkey – but I admire the spirit of your comment.
I like this take. At first I was a no ped users in the Hall guy. But then we’d lose an entire era and the story of baseball is incomplete.
I really think the Hall missed a golden opportunity to have a “steroid class” and put Bonds and Clemens in along with Papi. Perhaps by putting footnotes on their plaques or something.
Instead they did the least logical thing possible and only let in the least deserving steroid user on the list.
There’s definitive proof he bet as a player. Rose gets in after the 1919 Black Sox.
You can tell the stories of baseball, of the accomplishments of different players, without enshrining some of them. The fact that there’s so much debate over Bonds, Clemens, and many others shows their “stories” are being told; we’re just not honoring them individually if they’re not elected to the HOF.
His bookie’s records clearly show him gambling as a player.
espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13114874/notebook-obt…
Dale Murphy and Fred McGriff belong in the Hall! Ashamed it hasn’t happened sooner.
Gonna be REALLY interesting to see how the committee views the steroid stuff. Obviously by the numbers, Bonds and Clemens should be in. Anybody know who the 16 voting members are? I’d guess if they were “old school” guys, those two have less of a chance?
Steroid stuff should be moot after Ortiz got in. Manfred asked for “leniency” not because it was contested (bonds’ was too) but because he’s such a likeable guy
Agreed. We have the least qualified steroid guy in the Hall while the best steroid guys are out. Makes no sense.
I would have never voted for Ortiz… I don’t get it. Bagwell, Biggio and Piazza are clouded with suspicion, with no actual proof. I would not have voted for them, but, I understand it.
Adding to the steroid stuff, Ortiz has the same WAR as Ian Kinsler and less than Bobby Abreu.
I understand he was 100 times more famous than those guys, but it’s a bad combination of both obvious steroid use and meh overall value.
Yet he’s the one in and far better guys are out.
Pays to have a cute nickname, I guess.
So, is that your criteria? If there is suspicions they are guilty? I understand this is not a courtroom, but come on.
Rafael Palmeiro and Mark McGuire as well
Voting committee —
Hall of Famers: Chipper Jones, Greg Maoddux, Jack Morris, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Frank Thomas, Alan Trammell
Executives: Paul Beeston, Theo Epstein, Arte Moreno, Kim Ng, Dave St. Peter, Ken Williams
Media and historians: Steve Hirdt, La Velle Neal, Susan Slusser
Susan Slusser is a beat writer in the Bay Area
Bonds and Clemens not being in the hall is a joke. Especially after Ortiz got in. And before anyone says Ortiz never tested positive, he did. Just in a supposedly contested test. Which is exactly the same as Bonds. Bonds never tested positive with MLB, only with balco who had zero chain of custody.
Only baseball would have a hall of fame without the leaders in pretty much all the major categories. all time home run leader, the all time hits leader, and the guy with far more cy young awards than anyone. It would be like football keeping out Tom Brady because of deflategate and keeping out jerry rice because of stickum and Ray Lewis because of the murder trial
It’s always a good idea to honor cheaters. Not.
And if we were to remove the ones who used amphetamines during the “golden era” the HOF would be half empty. It’s not really cheating if the rule was never enforced. MLB and the union knew what was going on.
@daves Hands down my favourite player growing up was Schmidt. Best 3b (arguably) of all time…..Those Phillies teams notoriously had an open bowl of them in the locker room..
Greenies were handed out on the bus, everyone used them, no one thought it was cheating. Bonds and Clemens lied to Congress and to a grand jury.
No one with a clue compares the two.
To be fair, nobody asked any players from the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s to testify in front of Congress.
Cheaters are already being honored. Ortiz made it and didn’t have to wait even.
It’s not cheating if dam near everyone is doing it.
It’s cheating if you do it clandestinely. It’s really cheating if you lie to Congress and to a grand jury.
They knew it was cheated. It’s amazing how many people don’t have a moral clue what they did.
“It’s cheating if you do it clandestinely. It’s really cheating if you lie to Congress and to a grand jury.”
“I did not have sexual relations with that woman”
It wasn’t a secret, you could see the bottle of Andro sitting in McGwire’s locker during interviews. Jose Conseco was the poster child for PED’s.
Take out the years bonds and Clemens supposedly cheated. Tack on another year to make yourself feel good. They still have HOF resumes.
Id also be willing to bet if they took an anonymous survey of all hall of famers and ask if they’d ever cheated the game, we’d have significantly less people in there.
They stole from fans, players and team. They do not deserved to be “enshrined” into a Hall of Fame.
How did they steal from fans? Those years had incredible fan experiences
For fans of their teams sure. The rest of the fans suffered.
Were you not entertained, though? Half of America was watching the home run chase of ’98.
An excellent explanation of why Bonds is a different case from the rest and should NOT be in the HOF: forbes.com/sites/ericmacramalla/2022/01/25/the-cas…
“ Now some will say that Bonds never tested positive. It is correct that he was never suspended by MLB for a positive test. That by itself, however, is an insufficient basis to vote for Bonds since failing to test positive doesn’t mean of course that a player didn’t use.”
Substitute the word “Ortiz” for Bonds. Still feel like that’s a compelling argument?
“ The numbers also tell an unprincipled story. In Bonds’ first 13 season between 1986-1998 (before it’s believed he began to dope), he averaged .290/32HRs/93RBIs.”
Ok, so through 1998 he had 411 homers and 445 stolen bases through 8100 plate appearances. Literally the only guy in the 400/400 club to this day. Homers went up and steals went down presumably because he got so big. So let’s pretend steroids never happened and he kept that career trajectory. And let’s keep that trajectory through the same career plate appearances he actually ended up with – 12606.
411 homers in 8100 plate appearances has him on pace for 639 homers in 12606.
445 stolen bases in 8100 plate appearances has him on pace for 693 stolen bases in 12606.
He probably wouldn’t quite stay on that pace for steals but if he hadn’t gotten so big he was easily on pace to be not only the only member of the 400/400 club, and the 500/500 club, but also the 600/600 club. Before steroids.
Sounds like a slam dunk hall of famer to me
Bonds admitted to taking PEDs. He told a grand jury he didn’t, was tried for perjury, and wad acquitted by claiming he didn’t realize he was taking PEDs..
Bonds stole from players he played against. Stole from baseball. Who was excited about the Judge breaking Maris’ HR record.
Bonds is a disgrace and doesn’t deserve enshrinement. B
Bonds wasn’t even the one who broke Maris’ record? Bonds broke McGwires…
Lol Gaylord Perry actually wrote a book about how he was cheating, and this was released during his career. Even despite this, he only ever got caught once and was elected to the HOF in 1991. Nobody ever brings this up for some reason.
With or without PEDs, Barry Bonds was unquestionably one of the greatest baseball players of all time. There’s no excuse for him not to be in the Hall.
Look at how small Bonds was in Pittsburg. When he got to San Fransisco he magically got bigger. That right there should be proof he did Steroids.
I’ve gotten bigger as I’ve gotten older lol. Haven’t we all?
@phantomofdb I used to believe that argument made the case for Bonds, too, that he would have been a sure-fire HOF’er had he never (allegedly) starting using PED’s in the late ’90s. However, that argument also backfires too because if his HOF-level production leading up 1998/1999, which included 3 MVPs (and easily could have been 4 or 5), was not good enough for HIM, why should it be good enough for the HOF?
Truth be told, I don’t care if Bonds or Clemens get in or not; they were both great players, fun to watch, and I enjoyed watching them playing when I was growing up.. I think most of us knew they were using PEDs—or were in denial—and still watched and cheered for them.
Joey Belle!
Joey Belle woooOoooOooo!!! Very excited he is on the docket and I know he’s gonna get some votes just a matter of how many of course.
Bonds, Clemens, and Palmeiro should have been the in the HOF already. The hypocrisy of the Writers determing the fate of players they knew (and MLB, and fans knew) were using PED’s is bananas. The League and writers were in no hurry/rush to ban/report the substances back then, and instead made Tremendous amounts of money/Wins on the performances.
Management fostered a PED environment. Writers (the main critical voice of the industry), failed to Write about it.
The “tainted” players aren’t being allowed into the Hall…but we’re allowed on the Field and score books.
Seems the Players are now being punished post-behaviour because the Writers have suddenly taken thier jobs seriously, and MGMT would rather everyone forget how they were in a “well, if it isn’t ‘illegeal’, it’ll help me win” mode.
The players did what was allowed. Now it’s not cool?!!?! Hypocrisy.
O’say….. You nailed it. I have been going back and fourth for years!!!! But your post made to much sense. Bonds was a hof player b4 he started to juice….Clemens same thing was on his way …..We all knew what was going on with the juice some guys it was so obvious others not as easy and there was 0.0 rules on steroids ….any athlete or any human with a brain with chance to play a sport and baseball being the best imo ….to be paid millions of dollars to set you and your family up financially would do whatever it takes to get the results and yes it was legal at the time these guys played ….so let them in ….the writers really shouldn’t have any say on who gets in or minimal say ….imo it should be former players and coaches and front office people …..roid era was fun time for the fans because everyone loves the long ball
So now we’re blaming the writers for individual players making bad choices? Are we ever going to actually blame the guys who did the actual cheating? Or is that bit of personal responsibility a bridge too far?
p.s.
Cooperstown is a privilege, not a right.
If it wasn’t banned, it wasn’t cheating.
It’s a messed up Paradox. PEDs were a topic of conversation at the time, but no steps were taken, by Any of the parties (MGMT, Union, Writers, public). In fact, even Talking about it was a problem (see Thomas Boswell).
The industry protected it’s secret. Players understood, and adapted to Rules (or lack there of)
Look how quick MLB took care of Sticky Substances on baseball. That’s what effect Rules & enforcement gets you. Clarity.
Evans and Tiant. Wait…
I feel like the Crime Dog is the exact friction point where the Hall of Pretty Good and the Hall of Fame meet.
If I had a vote:
Bonds and Clemens are ineligible. They are on the Posthumous Call to the Hall wait-list.
Schilling shouldn’t have to wait quite that long but deserves another speedbump, too.
Murphy and McGriff are the two who would get my vote on this list.
Just put Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro in already and accept that PED’s are a part of MLB.
Wrong Dale Murphy linked here.
The best way to get people to forget about Bonds, Clemens, and Palmeiro is to just put them in the Hall already. Otherwise people will be discussing them every single December. Put them in the Hall and very few people will talk about them again until their obituary is published.
All eight of the players on the HOF ballot should be in. I’d like to see Keith Hernandez as well someday soon. These were some of the best players of an entire generation.
Clemens and Bonds and that’s it.
The Hall of Fame should be cut and dried choices. The player shouldn’t need to have any explanation as to why they are there. I’m tired of this… “Well, so and so is in the hall and this guy has stats that are similar to them, so he should be in the hall too…” BS. You know… when you hear the name called out you automatically think… YUP, he belongs in the Hall.
Sure… Steroids… awesome… who cares? If you banned players that cheat, you’d have a Hall of Fame with like 6 guys in it. They didn’t hurt anyone by using steroids. There are people that have taken steroids and couldn’t do what these guys did. Sure, the steroids helped, but they were great players without it… and they competed against guys that used also. Put them in!
I think Murphy is the cut off, though there are plenty of players already in the hall that he is superior to
I would say njo on him, but wouldn’t be insulted if he got in. Higher peak then Baines, though career basically done at 32.
If McGriff got 7 more homers he’d be in. Seems foolish to me that is the case. I’d vote for him
Albert Belle if not for the hip issue he’d no doubt already been elected. I wouldn’t be oppose to his election but his career to me feels incomplete. I would say no because you can’t elect on what you’d feel would happen if healthy.
Schilling should already be in. He’s left out because of his personality not performance.
Bonds is one of the greatest players to play. The only way he should be outside looking in is if you can prove that PED use was closer to 5% of the league during his career. I firmly believe if was near 90% So I base votes based on players of his era. Bonds played as if he were always playing against minor leaguers. Hes easily in.
Clemens is a combination of Schilling and Bonds. Elite tainted production with a personality that rubs people the wrong way. Neither should have kept him out. He’s in
Palmeiro is different then Bonds and Clemens prior to PED use he appeared to be a solid player, but no one that was on a hall of fame projection. While his counting stats are there I think he was aided far more then the others. Wouldn’t argue if elected, but also wouldn’t be fighting hard to get him in either.
Schilling is NOT a racist. He simply votes Republican. The liberals love to ban everything and everyone who doesn’t agree with them
It’s all a bunch of BS anyway. The ethics the drugs all of this stuff being debated is about how the game was being played at the time these guys were playing. Every single fan of the game new about the steroids, the greenies (anyone read Ball Four?) and the drama that surrounded the players. Forget about it. Should be straight up stat. Period
The whole idea of a veterans committee creates the Hall of Good. If they didn’t make it during their ten year term then they must not be deserving. Bonds isn’t getting in so HoF is dead to me.
let bonds in! he used steroids when they were not against mlb rules. anyone who fancies that other players, pitchers and hitters, did not use them are just ignoring realities.
Out of this list i think McGriff gets in alone. While the arguments against him suggest he was “pretty good” not “great” (finished 7 HR’s shy of 500, 510 hits short of 3000) he was an offensive force tallying 7 straight 30 HR seasons at a time when players weren’t doing that (1988-1994, before the boom of the steriod era). 4× All Star, 3× Silver Slugger, 6 top 10 MVP finishes, plus he hit .303 with 10 HR’s in the postseason during his career
I like the argument that if any other shipheads have gotten in, then it’s ok if even more shipheads get in. Set that bar as low as possible.
It’s how an immature six year old thinks.
It’s a travesty that Keith Hernandez is not in that list.
It’s a travesty that Tommy John is not in the HOF.
Albert Belle
Lou Whitaker War 75.1. Did not cheat. Should be on this ballot.
There is only 3 on the Contemporary Hall list worth voting for is Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff & 2 time NL MVP Dale Murphy all the rest are not worthy of being in the Hall of Fame
Dave Stieb should’ve been on this list! He will just continue to forever be snubbed, won’t he…? I wrote an article on why he should be here: sportsradioamerica.com/2022/08/19/forgotten-heroes…