Currently boasting a staff of Adam Wainwright, Miles Mikolas, Jack Flaherty, Jordan Montgomery, Steven Matz, and Dakota Hudson, the Cardinals were not predicted to be heavily involved in the free-agent starting pitcher market this offseason. Nevertheless, president of baseball operations John Mozeliak is aware that, “a year from now, we know we’re going to need starting pitching,” per Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Mozeliak added that the team has recognized that they will have to replace or re-sign four starters after the 2023 season.
Wainwright, who re-signed with St. Louis on a one-year, $17.5MM deal with incentives, has already stated that the 2023 season will be his last. Additionally, Mikolas, Flaherty, and Montgomery will all be free agents at the conclusion of the 2023 season. Matz and Hudson are the only starters with a contract for the 2024 season, with Matz signed through the 2025 season and Hudson a free agent after 2024. Goold reports that the Cardinals “plan to explore contract extensions with at least two of the starters who are unsigned beyond 2023,” with Mikolas being the most likely candidate.
The Cardinals are currently projected to enter the 2023 season with a payroll of $171.9MM, per Cot’s Baseball Contracts. However, after the season, they are forecasted by Roster Resource to have only $94MM in commitments — giving them ample room to add to their team. Despite this financial freedom, Mozeliak notes that the Cardinals “have some young starters coming,” perhaps signaling a desire to avoid free agent starters in order to fit within the team’s budget.
Lefty Matthew Liberatore (the Cardinals’ No.4 Prospect) struggled in his Major League debut during the 2022 season, pitching to a 5.97 ERA in 34 2/3 innings with a 17.4 SO% and 11.2 BB%. He didn’t fare much better in his second season at Triple-A Memphis, pitching to a 5.17 ERA in 115 innings with a 23.5 SO% and 8.3 BB%. Nevertheless, Liberatore is only 23 years old and still has plenty of time to settle in at the Major League level. Additionally, Gordon Graceffo (Cardinals’ No.3 Prospect), Tink Hence (No.6), and Michael McGreevy (No.9) all are expected to make their debuts during the 2024 season, with Graceffo and McGreevy earning promotions to Double-A Springfield during the 2022 season, while Hence spent the entire season with Single-A Palm Beach.
More pitching-related items from around baseball….
- According to WEEI’s Rob Bradford, the Red Sox do not view former All-Star Nathan Eovaldi as a top priority in their starting rotation search. Bradford adds that other teams are showing more interest in Eovaldi than the level currently displayed by Boston. The Mets were previously rumored to be in on Eovaldi, but their recent five-year, $75MM deal with Kodai Senga likely takes them out of the running for the soon-to-be 33-year-old. Eovaldi joined Boston during the 2018 season, with the righty helping them win the 2018 World Series. The Red Sox rewarded the starter with a four-year, $68MM contract that resulted in 407 2/3 innings of 4.15 ERA baseball, with a solid 24.4 SO% and strong 5.6 BB%. Despite being limited to 20 starts in 2022 due to low back inflammation and right shoulder inflammation, Eovaldi pitched to a 3.87 ERA in 109 1/3 innings with a 22.4 SO% and 4.4 BB%.
- In other St. Louis news, the Cardinals have reportedly entered the Carlos Rodon sweepstakes, per Jon Heyman of the New York Post. With Rodon seeking a seven-year deal and St. Louis having only two starters signed for the 2023 season, the Cards might look to join the bidding war for the two-time All-Star’s services. Rodon, 30, signed a two-year, $44MM deal with the Giants during the 2021 offseason, with an opt-out after the first year. Brushing aside injury concerns and making a career-high 31 starts, the southpaw pitched to a 2.88 ERA in 178 innings, with an absurd 33.4 SO% and strong 7.3 BB% before opting out of the contract at the end of the season. For his part, Mozeliak has remained coy, stating that while the team does “have some resources available,” but that he wouldn’t “believe many of the rumors you’re reading right now,” per Derrick Goold.
Rodon has been a good pitcher for two years, but his track record is still a question mark
Will the Cards cough up the coin to get him, I don’t know
Will Orioles swoop in? I don’t know
Strange how some free agents were resolved quickly and others are malingerers
I like the use of “swoop in” when referencing the Cards and Orioles battle haha.
I don’t think the Cardinals will be able to sign Rondon because the big market teams like the Yankees and the super team Dodgers could sign him if they chose to. I have no hope he will play for the Cards and it going to cost a fortune to get him because Boras is his agent. However, the Cardinals should consider signing Swanson he fits in the Cardinals lineup. In addition, the Cardinals should give an extension to Montgomery and maybe sign Chris Bassitt looking ahead for the 2024 season. If we can sign Swanson and Bassitt we will still need a left handed bat so I would not mind if the Cards bring back Dickerson, but only if we get Swanson and Bassitt. Dickerson didn’t have a good season overall, but I have always believe in his skills.
LOL
Boras works for his clients, not other way around. If client says get best deal with team XXX then that’s what Boras does, if client wants to max out his earnings then that’s what Boras does. Boras is very good at what he does, you notice owners haven’t gone bankrupt yet, and just dropped 2 billion in contracts during Winter Meetings.
Biggest scam sports owners have ever successfully ran is getting fans to defend their billions in profits, by claiming they cannot compete due to this or that contract on their payroll..
How are the Dodgers a “super team”? This gets repeated ad nauseum, but they look mediocre at best right now.
Mediocre? Are you sure you watch baseball?
Neon Cop- I’m not a fan or like the Dodgers, but you now what they have done in the last ten years. They have been the most dominant team in baseball. The Dodgers almost won two World Series in that span. They have had incredible lineups with players like Corey Seager, Justin Tuner, Cody Bellinger, Jansen, Pederson, Max Scherzer, Manny Machado, Yu Darvish, Matt Kemp, Hyundai Jin Ryu, Adrian Gonzalez and the list keeps going on and on. This is just a weird offseason for the Dodgers that they are not spending, but at some point they might make a couple of moves. By the way I’m not trying to defend the super team is that these are just the facts.
Yes — look at their playoff results in the last decade. Full seasons only. Most overrated team in the sport.
Superteams win multiple titles. The Dodgers only have one asterisk spring training ring.
It’s like, whoa, maybe there are other good teams out there? The fact that they haven’t built a dynasty makes them “mediocre”?
Someone needs a dictionary.
Yes, that’s exactly what it makes them. Maybe think for yourself instead of parroting what the baseball media says?
So by your logic, literally every team in Major League Baseball is “mediocre”?
Outstanding.
You’ve gotta be trolling at this point, but that’s ok…
I’m the troll? Again, grab one of them dictionaries. At least I make sense.
“Any team that isn’t a dynasty is mediocre.” There are zero dynasties in MLB.
Thus…
The 98-00 Yankees were the last truly elite teams baseball has seen. So yes, everyone who hasn’t won dynastic titles since then has been “of only moderate quality.” This isn’t hard. But you’re just being obtuse on purpose.
In that 10 year span the Red Sox and Astros have won two championships. The Dodgers only know how to spend. The Red Sox beat them in 2018. Dominant? Perhaps in spending.
Look at you trying to use big words! A for a better-than-mediocre effort.
Just take the L already. A Cardinals fan should be used to that…
There is no possible way you think you made the better arguments here, right?
Also, we haven’t had a losing season in fifteen years. Nice try though!
“Take the L?” You my friend are hilarious. I’m assuming you can’t see the ever important “thumbs up” battle between us. This is borderline flawless victory territory.
But for real, you should ask Santa for a dictionary this year.
@Cardsfan21: We? What’s your job in the organization?
Ah yes, referring to a handful of anonymous internet likes — probably all by Dodger fans. Or from your own burner accounts. Please do some actual thinking. Shouldn’t you be burning crosses with the other Cardinal fans?
Calling an entire fan base racist? I’ll take “tactics of the soundly defeated” for $400, Alex…
Another corny response from mommy’s basement. The prejudiced Cardinals fanbase is well documented…for your own sake, please do some real thinking in the future. This is boring!
Again, I’m lost as to what you consider “real thinking”. I’m a pretty diehard fan, go to countless games each year, and oddly enough never see any burning crosses. You should try some “real” thought when it comes to what words like “prejudiced” mean but again, at this point no one is expecting you to actually understand what any of the words you say mean.
Your attempts at intelligence have truly made my day. Hat tip to you, sir.
@neon cop. You are muddying definitions. If you don’t use a teams peers to produce what it means to be bad, good or mediocre than there is no hope of any kind of definition. What it means to be “good” comes down to subjective opinions like yours.
“ Ah yes, referring to a handful of anonymous internet likes — probably all by Dodger fans. Or from your own burner accounts. Please do some actual thinking. Shouldn’t you be burning crosses with the other Cardinal fans?”
Neon talking about burner accounts when he’s literally replied using two different accounts in this thread hahaha. I know this, because I can reply to some comments but not others of his. Oh, Neon
The dodgers only won 111 games last year, 106 the year before and a ring the year before that. And they’ve made the playoffs the last decade. But the hype is all the media’s doing!
In Friedman We Trust
Hey neon, didn’t you tell us the giants were going to beat the dodgers every year going forward after 2021?
How’s that going?
The Cardinals can’t afford Swanson (let alone Bassitt and Dickerson in addition to him) after already signing Contreras, especially since they still need some bullpen help. The same goes for Rodon.
They can go after a decent left-handed bat and a reliever or two, but that’s it.
Given the market I’m actually split on whether I want us to pursue Swanson. He seems clutch and I think he’d be a good clubhouse fit but for what he’s going to demand, Edman is my preference.
The low-spending Orioles will definitely not swoop in. They spent all their coin on their new ace, Kyle Gibson.
No they won’t. They’ll go with their young pitchers first in 2023.
They’re going to have to save up and dish out money to make a solid run at Othani next season.
The Dodgers are doing all they can to duck under the tax line this year. IF it is ruled that they don’t owe Trevor Bauer any money, then they will duck under in 2023 and go all in next season to sign Ohtani. They could end up paying him $45M+ per season!
“Will the Orioles swoop in?”
I really hope not, someone out there is likely going to regret giving Rodon and his brittle left arm 6 or 7 years at $30-ish million dollars a year and I would rather it not be the Orioles. Thankfully there is very little chance of that happening since Mike Elias is clearly trying to implement his old team, the Astros, system of building from within and then supplementing the homegrown core with targeted short term free agent deals and trades when the time is right.
Bassitt, Eovaldi, Stripling, and Syndergaard are much more plausible candidates for the second SP Elias has said he plans to add if he chooses to go the free agent route instead of trading for someone like Pablo Lopez.
Ownership won’t allow him to spend that type of money. I just worried the Birds will waste all the talent coming up by not investing in pitching. The way they screwed up the Machado years.
Arms race?
MLB has an arms race?
Cardinals historically have been good at developing arms?
I actually thought—- after the Cardinals signed Contreras so quickly—- that
John Mozeliak had actually changed
his Spots and was building a Pennant Winning team—- built around Goldschmidt &
Arenado.
I really thought the Cardinals were breaking out of their miser ways to add an Impact Starting pitcher and an Impact— seasoned veteran hitter for the outfield!!
It’s very disappointing to have the core players already in place—— & Not
taking the big step— on 2 more players—- to make the Cardinals a contender to reach the 2023 World Series.
Obviously—- as usual—- the Cardinals Front Office & the DeWitt ownership never intend to make the Cardinals the best they can possible be. They’re truly satisfied to only build over .500 win teams, who possibly get to the first round the Playoffs.
Let’s face it. It’s looking more and more likely that Rodon’s going to the Yankees. Unless the Cardinals offer him 7 years, at $30 million a pop. Then he goes there.
I doubt Yankees or Cardinals will be destination
Hearing Rodon wants to pitch on the East Coast.
Kay said he has an inside source that confirmed the Yankees have been in deep negotiations with Rodon. It has been postulated by several sports news reporters that the holdup is Rodon’s demand for a 7th year. Apparently, the Yankees are stuck on 5.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they agree next week on 6/$180; I also wouldn’t be surprised if they agree in February on the same because Boras drags everything out; and I wouldn’t be surprised if it fell apart over that 7th year either because, well, it’s Boras.
Clip, man if the Yanks offered him 30 mil a year for 6 years I would take it and run. What better contender is going to offer him that?
“Yankees have been in deep negotiations with Rodon”
“I also wouldn’t be surprised if they agree in February”
“I wouldn’t be surprised if it fell apart”
So Yankees might sign Rodon soon, or he might sign later, or the Yankees might not sign him at all. Got it! You covered every possible outcome, you won’t be wrong.
Jon Heyman is that you?
Haha – No, but that was precisely my point because he’s a Boras client! And of course, Heyman is Boras’ mouthpiece. Hence, no outcome would surprise me and regardless of the report, any can happen.
But, no, unfortunately I cannot take credit for Arson Judge, or the Tweet Heard Around the World. Or Coke Hamels for that matter.
We never will and hope we never even consider 30/yr for seven years.
Hope Liberatore can make some adjustments.
What I’ve heard is that all of Liberatore’s pitches are above average, but the tunneling is different for each, meaning advanced batters are able to identify what’s coming. A savvy team MIGHT be able to change that, but it sounds like a significant project, and with the upheaval in the Cardinals coaching staff, it seems unlikely that it’s been done this off season.
They had years to address their impending pitching disaster and they’ve done nothing. They had years to address their catching and they were left with their plan B at minimum. They are completely inept and will finish 4th in the division if Pittsburg stays healthy and doesn’t have their annual fire sale.
Pittsburgh and Cincinnati will claim bottom two spots barring acquisitions
Fourth place is ridiculous. Primarily the same team of last years division champs other than having signed the best catcher on the market. Your comment is inept and disastrous.
…Except the bench coach, hitting coach, pitching coach, game one playoff starter and the DH.
Expecting the same production from aging corner infielders, a 1/2 season wonder in RF, anything at all out of the LFer, or those pitching scrubs to make it to the all star break is just dumb. 4th place and holding the remote control come playoff time.
Cubs did well in second half of 2022, they ate much better than a AAAA team, in fact, I think they should be projected to finish ahead of Brewers, behind only the Cards
4th place? Stick to being a soccer fan or whatever you are buddy.
You’re precious.
So are diamonds.
I absolutely believe they “ate” better than a AAAA team.
It would take nothing short of a full fledged disaster of a season for the Cardinals to finish in 4th place in a division with the Reds and Pirates. The Cubs will be better and the Brewers couid go either way but right now it’s the Cardinals division to lose
I’m still fascinated by the idea of a fourth place finish. So, if you’ll indulge, please give me your projected standings in the NL Central. Dying to see that. Feel free to throw in estimated win numbers too.
The coaches don’t matter that much, a healthy Flaherty and Matz and a full season from Montgomery easily outproduce Quintana, and Contreras replaces Pujols’s offensive production while they still plan to get another decent bat.
Meanwhile, Arenado is only 31, Nootbaar was also pretty good in 2021, they should see a *massive* rebound in LF from a healthy O’Neill and likely another nice rebound in CF from Carlson, alongside Nootbaar their other young bats will likely only get better, and they have one of the better starting rotations in MLB (with an overqualified Hudson as the 6th starter) with a pretty good bullpen that should still see some help added this offseason.
Expecting anything lower than 2nd place is just dumb.
Who exactly is going to score these runs for the Cubs and Brewers? Lol
Willson Contreras is far from a plan B… Couldn’t sign him before he was a FA. And they STILL had Yadi. give that a rest. You’re 100% correct on the pitching front though. I think Montgomery will be their best pitcher this year. But I could be wrong. I’d trade Flaherty at the deadline if he’s pitching well.
Even if you don’t think Flaherty will regain his old form, Mikolas is easily better than Montgomery.
Meanwhile, the Cardinals will almost certainly be in contention at the Trade Deadline, and contending teams at the deadline don’t trade away good players without getting at least equal current talent in return unless they’re the Rays or last year’s Brewers.
Contending teams trade for needs all the time. Flaherty almost certainly won’t sign an extension. If he’s pitching well, I’d 100% flip him for something of need at another position. His value to the Cardinal’s is probably as a trade to someone else. I’m not convinced he’ll pitch more than 50 innings this year though. You’re welcome to disagree, but Flaherty is probably taking a flight to LA in FA. I’d rather trade him for 3 or 4 top prospects if he’s pitching well.
Yes, they trade *for* needs. They don’t trade *away* useful players unless they’re getting good current value in return (like Bader for Montgomery). Even if you don’t expect to resign someone, the better move for a contender is almost always to make the best playoff run you can and let the guy walk in the offseason, even if it means you only get a draft pick or even absolutely nothing in return.
If Flaherty is healthy and pitching well at that point, I’d much rather have him help the Cardinals have a better chance at making the playoffs and then a better chance to win the World Series than get those prospects for him. If not, then nobody’s going to want to trade for him anyway.
When you let nostalgia trump your long term planning there will be consequences when the standing Os end. If you fail to plan, you better plan to fail. Good thing the Redbirds have Mo on their side:)
trump
Mo has more World Series rings then you do, so he must be doing something right over last 14 years..
Hey Mo! Give Liberatore a chance &; don’t become a victim of circumstance…
A rhyme, nyuck, nyuck
No more rhyming, I mean it.
Anybody want a peanut.
Inconceivable
I hate that I’m reading this because I was hoping Cardinals would land Rodon last season at the trade deadline and was wishing for him in FA. Hearing that they’re exploring the possibility is going to make it hurt worse when he inevitably goes to New York.
rodo cop is an unproven free agent
of course i’ll believe some average joe like me instead of people who make their living from the game of baseball
Hope the yankees take a good look at Eovoldi. Once again would be a great spot starter. Long reliever
One wonders if, given enough options, Eovaldi would prefer to not go to the Yankees after how his tenure there ended and if the Yankees wouldn’t want to revisit that marriage.
Eovaldi is what he is and I think he’s a prone candidate for a complete change of scenery. St. Louis, whenever. But he’d probably be best off moving on from the Red Sox and not revisiting the Yankees.
Eovaldi isn’t signing anywhere to be a spot starter/long reliever
six years on any pitcher with injury history, unless they are in their early twenties and its a TJ, is risky – shoulders, hips, knees, hard to justify long term risk
All the comments on the Rodon part of the story. Understood…
But do we just gloss over ANOTHER Red Sox proclaimation of who is not an important priority to them this offseason?? Nate Eovaldi saved them for 2 years and he is just the latest ‘thanks for nothing’ attitude of the Red Sox. Get ready for a 70-92 season Redsox Nation.
They will be lucky to see 70 wins
He got a thank you contract in 2019. He has something wrong with him that brought his velo down over 3mph just last season. He should have taken the qo
and that thank you contract was about two years and $40 million too long at that. I’m grateful for 2018 but he’s been largely unavailable for the past 4 years and pitchers generally don’t get less injury prone as they age.
As I always say, half the RS fans are the stupidest fans in BB. Except for the Covid season, the RS finished with 70 or less wins once in the past 50+ years.
Odds are 2023 will make that twice excluding covid that sox don’t break 70 wins
I’ll offer you the same wager I offered that knucklehead KD two years ago, when he predicted 65 wins. I will wager on over 70, and the loser signs off for the month of November.
Any interest?
he may be going by a new name now but that’s still an accurate descriptor…
JoeBrady – You insult Red Sox Nation? Why say something like that on this site?
People who disagree with you are not stupid. In fact, most would argue based on your daily inane comments that just the opposite is true.
Bloom is 4 games over .500 and Dombrowski was 104 games over .500.
Things are bad and fans are not stupid because they say so on forums like this one. FYI… the 4 vs 104 is not an opinion it’s an irrefutable fact documenting the huge difference in performance of the team under both GMs!!!
The COVID season lessened the pain on Red Sox fans because the 40% winning wasn’t extrapolated for 162 games. You speak of it as an aberration not the current norm. 3 seasons and 4 games over .500 is not a good performance under Bloom and the talent continues to lessen.
As of today, this team has a dismal future thanks to Bloom. That could change several ways.
1 – Fire Bloom
2 – Bloom completely reversing his 3 year trend of bad decisions and starts making good decisions. (What’s your “odds” on that one!!)
3 – The team is sold to owners who focus on the team not other things
The odds of any of the three ways to improve happening in next year are bad!
Thus, tighten your seat belt it’s going to be a rough ride in 2023.
You insult Red Sox Nation? Why say something like that on this site?
==============================
Because it’s true, and everyone knows it.
IRT the rest of your babbling, I will offer you the same wager that I offered GaSoxFan. Just let me know what “it’s going to be a rough ride in 2023” means in regard to wins.
For all your loud talk, I haven’t seen you accept any of my generous offers.
Boy did KD’s new screen name take the cheese on that one Joe. Well done.
I’d also say this. I think it’s less then half of Sox fans are the stupidest in baseball…maybe a quarter. they just happen to be the most overbearing, chest beating loudmouths.
I think it’s less then half of Sox fans are the stupidest in baseball…maybe a quarter.
========================
I will defer to your actuarial prowess.
KD’s new screen name take the cheese on that one Joe.
==============================
I played a lot of poker growing up. I know how to draw out the crazy in people. I also know how to shut them up.
A little wager offer to back up their opinion (or what passes for an opinion) and folks like these pee in their pants. and thus has it always been.
Boy did KD’s new screen name take the cheese on that one Joe.
==============================
Still waiting to see if any of the bold claimants of 70 wins want to take advantage of me and my kind offer of an honor wager.
“I will never forget the look on their faces. All eight of them. Their faces dropped. All their courage and strength was drained right from their bodies. ”
-A Bronx Tale
Has a gm ever been fired for having a crappy off-season? Does no one want to sign with the Giants?
Signing Rodon would be completely out of character for the Cardinals.
But the reality is, it’s a team that next year has essentially five #2-3 starters.
That probably gets you 85+ wins. Maybe even the Wild Card.
But a 1st round playoff exit.
They need an ace. And will probably have to trade for it.
Braves won 2021 World Series without an ACE.. Postseason is random and these All-Star teams that cost half a billion rarely win…
Max Fried was not an ace?
“Braves won 2021 World Series without an ACE..”
Aside from their ace Max Fried (top 10 Cy Young two of the last three years, ERA+ of 208, 143, and 164 the last three years, one of the best SP in the NL), sure. ‘Without an ace’.
Take what Derrick Goold has to say with a grain of salt. This is the same writer who continues to shield and defend his buddy Dan McLaughlin in the face of a third DUI because his job is to tow the company line and not take a stand on anything important. A mouthpiece for the team is all Good is and Dan McLaughlin peed in his pants during his second DUI stop.
Goold doesnt work for Cardinals..
That’s what he wants you to think. He’ll be frozen out as a media member the moment he takes a stance contrary to the team.
In fairness, what exactly do you think he should be updating? We know it happened. That’s it. Not much to report, so maybe go grab yourself a Snickers?
He’s written multiple articles demanding that we the public stand by McLaughlin during his drunken behavior due to him being very talented at his craft, a family man, and a man of faith. Now that he has proven himself once again to be a lowlife, Goold remains silent.
If it was important enough to defend him then it must also be important enough to condemn him.
He is a very talented man, a family man and a man of faith. He also has some terrible demons he needs to deal with (and has failed to do so in the past) and he put the public at risk with his actions.
What do you feel an article “condemning” him would accomplish?
So you feel it’s ok that he continues with this deviant behavior so long as he cowers behind his family and faith shielding mechanisms? Are you suggesting that if he were less talented then he should in fact be more harshly dealt with?
It’s weird, I’m able to hold someone accountable for their actions without pretending to be self-righteous and feeling the need for an article telling us that what we already know is bad truly is bad.
Kicking him while he’s down, or condemning him may make you feel better (although that is quite odd to me) but doesn’t change anything he did. He needs punishment, then help.
That’s what holding someone accountable means.
What punishment has he received? The team is attempting to bury the report and has announced no consequences for his actions. Journalists, so called, like Goold are remaining silent as well and not calling for accountability or team action. There’s a hushed approach as the parties involved focus more on saving face than standing up for what is right.
Or, ya know, due process. I’m sure they aren’t counting on fans forgetting it happened. But it’s also the off-season so it’s not like he’s scheduled tomorrow night.
Patience, he’s “probably” gonna get a tad bit of punishment.
Since when has due process gotten in the way of the actions of private companies? Players and personnel are disciplined all the time in all walks of life prior to the completion of the legal process. So to your original point you feel he should be afforded special treatment due to his talent level or his faith?
I laughed out loud at this. lmao.
Please show me anywhere that I said he deserves any special treatment.
Nate Eovaldi was a find by DD, which means chaim wants him off the club.
It doesn’t help that he was salvaging wins that cost draft picks, that he is not quite yet taking geritol, and, there isn’t enough risk in the signing.
Chaim wants someone more like Cole, very advanced age, high risk, unlikely to make it through the deal healthy. If he does well can be flipped. A 1yr + 1option kinda deal.
Also an issue for Chaim, Eovaldi is nearing 10 & 5 rights if he returned to Boston, and, El roster churnoman aka bloom wants to be able to flip slice and dice any pitching that does well for more low level lottery prospects.
I REALLY do not understand the lack of interest in Eovaldi from the Red Sox front office. The dude saved their asses in 2018, and over the last 4 years has been their ONLY dependable starter able to go deep into games and step up in big spots. He has been well worth the money they invested in him, and that is a rarity for this ownership group. Make it make sense!
which means chaim wants him off the club.
================================
Eovaldi is 23-15 over the past four seasons, combined.
And this is the guy you want to give a long-term contract to?
Who, aside from Eovaldi, has better numbers over that span? Their starting pitching has been a joke. He’s a workhorse and can handle playing in Boston, unlike other unknown commodities on the market.
For the record, Chris Sale is 23-17 over the same span.
For the record, Chris Sale is 23-17 over the same span.
======================================
Would you extend Sale?
Win/loss record is not a great stat to evaluate pitchers overall. Eovaldi has far more quality starts over that span than Sale, AND he has been largely healthy unlike Sale.
Win/loss record is not a great stat to evaluate pitchers overall.
=================================
Of course not. The key number there is the 23 wins, followed by the 38 decisions in almost 4 years.
I’m just curious. Given the very few innings he’s given us over the past four years, and given that he threw 41 innings in the RS final 105 innings, are injuries not a concern to you?
A simple yes or no would suffice, without references to Sale.
@JoeBrady – yes, yes I would give nate a contract. A poor win-loss record has to do with a piss poor team behind the pitcher, including relievers blowing the hold or save. So, no, w/l for a pitcher isn’t the best stat on any chaim bloom team.
Let’s look instead at 5 years or parts Nate was in boston:
2018 – 133 ERA+
2019 – 81 ERA+
2020 – 129 ERA+
2021 – 125 ERA+
2022 – 109 ERA+
now, what’s that tell me? Nate can handle the pressure of Boston. He can be effective in Fenways challenging dimensions. He can mentor young arms, and, assist guys coming back from TJ. Would I give him a 7 year deal? No way.
But he’s clearly been above league average as an arm which is something the Red Sox have had a problem with on the pitching staff during the bloom regime.
Spot on. Finally a reasonable comment regarding Boston and Eovaldi. They are inept if they aren’t making a strong push for him.
I agree. He has also proven an ability to succeed either in the rotation, or the pen. What’s that mean? On a longer deal, if, IF you ever develop or trade for young arms you can bump him into the pen where he was highly effective for Boston in later years.
I’m not doubting Eovaldi’s talent.. But I doubt his ability to stay on the mound. His 4-year totals:
2019 67.2
2020 130 Prorated
2021 182.1
2022 109.1
In fact, I wouldn’t ignore him. But I see no way he is in anyway dependable. I’d even go so far as to say I’d be interested if he had some recent health. But he pitched well, then missed 5 weeks. Then returned and pitched poorly in 6 starts. Then missed another 7 weeks before returning for two starts.
JoeBrady – Mr Metrics, are you using wins to determine the success of Eovaldi? Isn’t that taboo these days?
Isn’t that taboo these days?
==================================
Yes, it is. But you apparently missed my explanation, which was:
“The key number there is the 23 wins, followed by the 38 decisions in almost 4 years.”
If you are unconcerned about only 38 decisions in roughly 3.4 years, then so be it.
Someone please wake Bloom up ! He still needs a shortstop if Story stays at second base. He needs outfield help and PITCHING PITCHING PITCHING! We need PITCHING! Our staff has holes at the number 1 ; 2 spot. Pivetta is a 4 or 5. or a good long reliever best maybe a distant 3rd. He lost Eovaldi, Wacha, and Hill. He needs a catcher too, Wong is not that good and at second base Jeter Downs struggles with hitting. The other GMs know he is a joke. What is the plan here? Wait for the leftovers. Is he planning to sign fill in players like his old Tampa Bay pauper ways. Senga is gone to the New York Mets. I am still mad and frustrated at him for Bogaerts when he could have negotiated a lot earlier with him during the season or directly after it before free agency.
I think this is his last year with this team when his rookie players flop again and this whole team flops again. Going to be a long year this year in Boston
I really really hope the Yankees do not give Rodon 7 years/$210M. I really really hope they don’t do that.
I’d be FINE with 2 years/$80M or 3 years/$100M but the years he is asking for on top of the dollars is just too risky.
Whether it was at $23M AAV or $33M AAV, anything more than 2-3 years is too risky with Rodon.
Honestly? He deserves 1 year/$45.1M w/ a vesting option at $32.5M followed by another vesting option at $32.5M. That’d be a fair and logical deal.
What a player is asking is only part of it. It’s also what other teams are willing to offer. All those short-term/high AAV deals your proposing aren’t landing Rodon. Offering 1-3 years is just a waste of effort. Players want security. Admittedly 7 years for Rodon is a scary gamble, but multiple teams will give him more than 3, so why bother?
Trill = Rodon is an enigma.
As a 22 yr old he had 23 starts for only 139.1 IP in 2015 with a decent ERA and terrible WHIP (1.443). This shows control issues and an interesting (9.0/4.6) K/BB ratio
At 23 he gets 28 starts his ERA is over 4 in 165 IP. K/BB ratio 9.;2/2.9
On the surface it looks like he significantly improved his control. In fact, he gave up 20% more hits per inning and had twice the HRs allowed. Reeled in his control and got hit harder.
at 24 he hurt and pitches 12 starts with bad ERA and WHIP.. Strikeouts per 9 rise to 9.9 and walks per 9 bounce back up to 4.0 but his hits per 9 falls to 2015 level.
at 25 hurt again 20 starts bad ERA and WHIP and his Ks drop to 6.7 lowest so far
at 26 hurt again 7 starts with Ks jumping to 11.4 and walks still at roughly 4 per 9 IP
at 27 hurt again 2 starts with terrible numbers
at 28 In 2021 He has 24 starts the best since 2016. ERA 2.37 and WHIP under 1
He makes the all-star game and is 5th in CY voting. (The Natural?)
at 29 last year he pitched in SF not for the CWS so a better pitchers park
He makes the all-star game and is 6th in CY voting AND he starts 31 games
So what magical drug did Rodon take in 2021 to transform him to an elite level pitcher? Will he bring it with him to his new team? He took it to SF from Chicago. It’s hard to extrapolate success when a player struggles to stay healthy for 6 years and then suddenly shows up and is not just healthy but far better than his history ever suggested. He spent next to no time in the minors so the numbers above reflect over 90% of his professional career and it’s like there was an injury prone pitcher for 6 years and a stud for 2 years.
Mathematicians can’t successfully trend data that is so inconsistent.
If the last two years truly are his new norm, then he deserves $30MM a year. If his injury history is going to resurface then he deserves a short contract of 1 year with options for years 2 and 3 like you said. Give him $30MM for a year in case he is the guy that showed up 2 years ago but limit your risk until he proves he’s not a mirage.
I think $45MM is an overpay but I think your structure is spot on!!
He deserves 1 year/$45.1M
================================
He is probably looking for something closer to $210M/7. He won’t accept a $45.1M guarantee.
Jays disappointing off-season can turn quickly into a home run if they trade for a reynolds or Varsho, then sign a Eovaldi and kluber. They saved 20 million in deals so far, they can afford to take that on. Also right trade pieces for a Varsho.
angels need eovaldi. at least one more guy to strengthen the rotation and the pen seems ok.
Eovaldi has become too expensive for the Sox. Bloom will just wait out the market and pick up someone who is left out there on the cheap.
Cole?
Eovaldi seems like a perfect candidate for a 1 year/$12M guarantee w/ innings based/days off the IL based escalators that could push him to $17M and trigger a second year at $15M flat.
Earth calling. Eovaldi turned down a $19.5 million qualifying offer from the Sox.
So he wants multiple years. He deserves it. Give it to him.
Then why are all the experts expecting 1-2 years at a $15-$18M AAV for Eovaldi?
Also keep in mind it would only take a $10M AAV over 2 years to beat the QO, which he could easily get on the open market.
Turning down 1 year/$19.65M does not mean he was going to get 2 years/$40M or 3 years/$57M or anything like that. The AAV on a multi year deal will be lower if not much lower than $19.65M.
I think a team that has already signed a player that rejected a QO is most likely to sign Eovaldi because the draft pick loss would be lower. Maybe the Red Sox resign him at the last minute on a cheap deal if he can’t find anything.
Wonder if the Phils are on him. Dombrowski likes his guys……….
Nashville Jeff: Nakes sense and I would start Eovaldi in a big game before Taijuan Walker. I’m not very high on Walker.
that is likely exactly what tightwad Bloom is thinking
Randy: We will see if Eovaldi rejecting the QO was a good idea. I thought he would accept it.
As an Orioles fan that doesn’t want to gamble on Rodon, I would be just fine with the Cardinals signing him instead of the Yankees.
Cards should’ve gotten in on Senga.
Completely agree.
Cards need to sign miles and Montgomery to extension s.
THIS off season just made that VERY difficult. Seeing what players are getting makes it a no-brainer to wait until free agency and let the open market determine your value. Even guys with extensive injury histories (DeGrom, Rodon, etc.) and one year of production (Tyler Anderson, Quintana, etc) are getting long term deals at full price .
I think the Cardinals will be lucky (and LIKELY) to sign one of their guys, probably Mikolas, but they need look no further than the Mets (Verlander, Quintana/Senga=$140 mill plus) to see how much it can cost to rebuild your rotation via free agency in one off season.
Mikolas should be a relatively easy extension, but Montgomery will be much tougher.
Boston fans really don’t deserve anything nice. All their fans do is brawl in the stands. They’re similar to the Cowboys and Dodgers fans but with legal citizenship.
Uh, hello. Lifelong Boston fan and Massachusetts resident. Been to dozens of Sox games and not once have I seen what you are referring to. Fenway is actually quite the family friendly venue. I believe you meant Yankees fans.
Tell your Bruin counterparts to stop giving you a bad rep.
Thats fair!
@Cheap….
I’ve been to hundreds of games at fenway, but, I’ve given up until bloom is out.
I’ve sat in every general section in the ballpark more or less, including 4 of the different monster boxes.
Depending on the year you go, and, what part of the ballpark you’re in… your mileage will vary.
LF grandstand is more family friendly than RF, and bleachers are hit or miss once you get away from the BPs where the officers stand. More than once I’ve heard a lot of colorful language in RF grandstands.
Now, that said, language in BOTH the recent Atlanta ballparks, turner and truist, was far more rowdy than anything I’ve heard at fenway.
The more I think about it, the less I think it makes sense for the Yankees to sign Rodon.
If George were still running the show and spending like Steve Cohen, sure — Rodon’s the best available pitcher and money’s no object.
But money is an object under Hal’s management. He spends big on massive contracts and then pulls back and worries about the luxury tax afterwards. After he let Cashman overpay for Cole, IKF was the starting shortstop in 2022.
Rodon’s health is a concern. Cashman already added a starter with shoulder problems in acquiring Montas. If Rodon lands on the IL again, Hal might lock up the vault, and who could blame him? If he gets burned after giving Rodon a long-term contract on top of Cashman’s botched negotiation with Judge, it might be a long time before he reopens the vault, and Cashman has shown no ability to put together a World Series team on a budget.
After he let Cashman overpay for Cole, IKF was the starting shortstop in 2022.
===============================
A lot of fans don’t get this. Unless you’re Cohen or Preller, and even Preller probably has limits, every dollar spent on Player A comes at the expense of Player B. It’s almost always about $$$/WAR.
JoeBrady – If you make over 1/2 BILLION a year like the Yankees it’s crazy to think spending big bucks on Cole impacted any other deal. It’s been 100 years of overspending in NY and it’s never phased them during those 100 years.
Heck, until 2018 Boston hadn’t over spent the Yankees but 2 times in history and prior to 1962 the Yankees often outspent the next 5 closest teams in spending.
IKF played SS as a placeholder for their highly touted minor league SSs. That’s why the Yankees didn’t go all in on any SSs this off season. The organization thinks their young guys are the real deal, like when Jeter was coming up.
It will be interesting to see if they are right.
It’s never $$$/WAR. That’s your concept. WAR is a contrived number which uses too many faulty assumptions. At least use something closer to the truth like OPS+. AAV/OPS+ is much more accepted as cost/benefit ratio.
You’re confusing the George Steinbrenner regime with the Hal Steinbrenner regime. George couldn’t have cared less about the luxury tax. Hal has been obsessed with it.
BTW, what is this formula — OPS+. AAV/OPS+ — and where does it come from?
it’s crazy to think spending big bucks on Cole impacted any other deal.
=====================================
But it did, didn’t it? Perhaps you meant to say “it shouldn’t impact other deals”, and I would agree. But since Hal seems intent (so far) at skirting the $233M cap, then that’s the reality.
st. louis is going to need another bat. brandon belt is available.
I wouldn’t mind that addition.
The first sentence of this article cracks me up. “Boasting” – hardly. I am a Cardinals fan and there is nothing boasting, or to boast about when it comes to this rotation.
Further down in the article, the Mozeliak quote “have some young starters coming”, is his typical overhyping of the Cardinals pitching prospects. The starters mentioned, other than Liberatore, have not even pitched in AAA yet. But let’s go ahead and think that THESE are the guys to be in the rotation next year, even though they haven’t pitched in AAA at all yet. Ridiculous.
Also, Liberatore has shown NOTHING yet. Since Dave Duncan left, what Cardinals pitching prospects have been internally developed?
I would love to see them give Bassitt a two year deal with a higher than expected AAV, along with an option for a third year.
I also think they should try to sign Mikolas and Montgomery to an extension.
The article forgot to mention Zach Thompson, though. Unlike Liberatore, he actually did pitch pretty well in the Majors this past season.
The article forgot to mention Zach Thompson, though, who unlike Liberatore did pitch pretty well in the Majors this past season.
As for internally developed starting pitchers (not even counting relievers) since Duncan left, there’s Lance Lynn, Jaime Garcia, Carlos Martinez, Marco Gonzales, Jack Flaherty, Dakota Hudson, Sandy Alcantara, etc.; while Shelby Miller and Machael Wacha started out strong before fading, and the jury is still out on Austin Gomber.
Yes, Gonzales, Miller, Alcantara, and Gomber were each traded shortly after reaching the Majors, but they still count as internally developed and helped bring back some good players in return (yes, Ozuna was still pretty good for the Cards despite being somewhat disappointing and having later legal troubles).
Skip – Wish you hadn’t mentioned Brandon Belt. I hope Bloom doesn’t see this. Next thing you know he’ll sign him to play 1B and Hosmer will be playing RF!!
“Currently boasting a staff of Adam Wainwright, Miles Mikolas, Jack Flaherty, Jordan Montgomery, Steven Matz, and Dakota Hudson, the Cardinals…”
—-“Boasting” is the wrong word here. All of Flaherty, Matz, and Hudson all had real problems in 2022. Wainwright, for his part, will be 41 and was merely average by ERA+.
AT BEST their starting pitching is going to be a problem in 2023. Hard to believe a team this well run won’t be adding another solid SP in trade or FA, especially after Liberatore’s depressing results in 2021, and in 2022 in both the majors and AAA. Why they weren’t in on Quintana to at least the 2/27m mark is surprising.
Thought the same thing when I read it. Loss of shift and we have a rotation full of question marks and pitch-to-contact hitters. Sure, central could be winnable (Cubs drastically improved their rotation with one pitcher) and we lost our best pitcher (headscratcher, guy wanted to return and went for an affordable cost), but can we contend with first 2-3 rotations of the NL coast teams? Nah, not at all. Mets will eat our lunch, Phillies DID, LA & Padres both have depth we don’t have. Mo is just aiming for the division which means less and less and is not the bar the franchise should aim for.
Flaherty and Matz had injury problems. Matz in now healthy and had a good September out of the bullpen, so he should be more like was expected going forward. While Flaherty can be considered injury prone, he’s great when he is healthy, and the Cardinals have plenty of depth to bolster an injury or two.
Hudson wasn’t terrible last year, but he was deservedly demoted to the bullpen. As such, that’s why he’s only going to be the 6th starter going into next year. Still, he’s perhaps the most overqualified 6th starter in MLB right now.
An average Wainwright is perfectly fine with Mikolas, Flaherty, and Montgomery at the front of the rotation, and that stat is misleading anyway with the freak disruption to his mechanics (that has since been fixed) that tanked his performance in September.
The Cardinals would be smart to make a move for Rodon since they have very little MLB ready starting pitching after the 2023 season. To bank your hopes on young farm talent is beyond dumb. Mo has no clue how those pitchers will pan out in the major leagues. If they don’t act now, the Cardinals may find themselves a 3rd place team in the central division in 2024. Pull the damn trigger now! Quit being so darn conservative all the time.
First, they can’t afford Rodon with their remaining budget for 2023.
Second, that’s mostly a problem for next offseason, and they’ll have quite a bit of money available then. Nothing needs to happen now.
Third, they are doing what they can by looking into possible extensions for Mikolas and/or Montgomery.
The article forgot to mention the Cardinals’ other top starting pitching prospect, Zach Thompson. He had a decent rookie season in the bullpen and is now even higher on the starting pitching depth chart than Liberatore is.
Bloom will probably offer Hill who is 44 years old a two year contract and think he improved the starting pitching. What bill of goods did this clown sell John Henry? I liked Dave Dombroski because he produces results and is not afraid to trade prospects. Bloom is at another extreme of the spectrum and is afraid to deal his precious prospects because they are cheaper salaries. More often prospects do not make it.
What is the plan for the outfield trade for JBJ again?
What is the plan for first base? Anoint Casas the position ? Haven’t we already seen anointing a rookie the position with Dalbac (who should not be allowed anywhere near a baseball diamond with that hole in his swing) Give the position to Hosmer because he is a freebie? I loved this guys heart when he went in the disabled list almost immediately and stayed there until 3 games before the season ended!
Who plays shortstop now that Bloom screwed up the Bogaerts negotiations when he should have negotiated with him before last season. Do they move Story back to shortstop? Then who plays 2nd base Jeter Downs, who struggles to hit?
Who pitched for this team ? You need a one and two type starter? Does Eovaldi come back ? But they are not prioritizing him!
Who is going to catch ? Vazquez already signed with the Twins. You going to depend on Wong and McGuire?
If I owned the Red Sox and saw this mess from last year to now, I would fire Bloom.This team is a mess and I do not even see an organized plan here to fix it.
What is the plan for the outfield trade for JBJ again?
=========================
I was going to address the rest of your post, but stopped after this.
You do know that we have 3 starting outfielders, right? And a #4?
Joe
I was being facetious and trying to make a joke of it. I have no Ryme or reason to what Bloom does or his final plan with this team. I am wondering if he does either. Who Verdugo and Kime. I would not call Pivetta a good number 3 starter either. He is more of a4th or 5th an inconsistent.
Fair enough. Then back to your post, in no particular order.
1-I’m fine with Wong/McGuire. The Guardians just signed Zunino for $6M, and I’d bet (small) Wong/McGuire come within about 0.5 bWAR of Zunino. Defensive value for catchers is increasing every year. Also, I like Vazquez, but his WAR/$$$ will be lower than Wong/McGuire, and that is something I’d make a reasonably large wager on.
2-I have no objection to re-signing Eovaldi, but his recent injury history would make the contract 2 years tops, and that would be pending MRIs. I’d have no interest in the 2022 Eovaldi.
3-Pivetta, imo, is probably a weak #3, but for $5M, you will never find anyone better.
4-IRT SS, we have options. The first is to move Story to SS and sign someone like Segura. The second, which I like more, would be to trade with AZ for Thomas, Story to SS, and KK to 2B. Unfortuantely, we do not match up well.
5-IRT Casas, every team in BB commits to highly-rated prospects. There are o practical alternatives.
Joe
I was being facetious about JBJ and trying to make a joke of it. I have no Ryme or reason to what Bloom does or his final plan with this team. I am wondering if he does either. Who Verdugo, Kike, and recently signed Yoshida? . Do you think we are improved in that area now? I would not call Pivetta a good number 3 starter either. He is more of a 4th or 5th and very inconsistent.
Only thing the Red Sox are prioritizing is profit margin
Since the salary is always at the cap, or over, how are they prioritizing profits?
Mozo is the absolute worst. He refuses to trade or sign a pitcher and as much as l like our young kids they ain’t ready for the big time yet.