The Padres were known to have made a spirited run at Aaron Judge between their pursuit of Trea Turner and eventual agreement with Xander Bogaerts. Bob Nightengale of USA Today suggested this week the Friars were prepared to put forth an offer around $400MM (Twitter link). Ken Rosenthal of the Athletic wrote they never formally made such an offer, but it’s clear the San Diego front office had at least contemplated a proposal that would have topped the offers made by both the Giants and Yankees.
Jon Heyman of the New York Post added some clarity on the matter last night, reporting the Padres were preparing an offer to Judge that’d have reached or exceeded $400MM over a whopping 14-year term. However, Heyman further hears Major League Baseball would have been prepared to veto such an arrangement if the sides had agreed upon it. Of course, it proved to be a moot point once Judge decided he wanted to return to the only organization he’s ever known.
MLB vetoing a record-breaking contract would’ve made for a fascinating story. The league’s justification for doing so would’ve been the contract length was an artificial means for the team of working around the competitive balance tax. A team’s luxury tax number is calculated by adding the average annual values of their commitments (plus player benefits and teams’ contributions to the pre-arbitration bonus pool). The luxury tax hit of any contract is evenly dispersed over the course of the deal regardless of the actual payout of the salaries or bonuses.
If we assume the Padres’ prepared offer was for exactly $400MM over 14 years, the deal would’ve come with an AAV around $28.57MM. That’s true no matter if the money were evenly distributed, frontloaded or backloaded. A $400MM guarantee would have handily topped the $365MM Mookie Betts received on his Dodgers extension and the $360MM in new money on the Mike Trout deal, establishing itself as the largest guarantee in MLB history. Distributing it over a 14-year term, however, would put the $28.57MM average yearly salary outside the top 20 in history.
A lower-payroll team may prefer to stretch a deal an extra season or two to lower their annual payment, but MLB’s concern is the Padres’ offer would’ve been done specifically as a means of circumventing the luxury tax. The Padres have paid the CBT in each of the last two years, and they’re certain to do so again in 2023. The Padres entered the week with their CBT number for 2023 hovering right around the $233MM base threshold. San Diego is responsible for a 50% tax on their first $20MM above the threshold and 62% of their next $20MM in overages, with further penalties thereafter.
Offering something like the nine-year, $360MM deal to which Judge actually agreed with the Yankees would’ve come with a $40MM AAV that stuck the Friars with approximately $22.4MM in taxes. Conversely, a 14-year, $400MM offer would’ve come with an additional tax bill around $15.3MM. The lower number on that contract would’ve also come into play if San Diego had made further additions to the payroll, with the Friars starting at a lesser CBT figure when calculating the tax hit associated with their subsequent pickups.
It’s understandable MLB would be wary of a blatant workaround to the luxury tax, which is designed to disincentivize spending among teams with already large payrolls. Yet it’s also somewhat curious to hear they’d have stepped in to veto that kind of proposal to Judge considering some large-market teams have already increasingly taken to a variation of this strategy: longer-term deals at comparatively lesser annual salaries to lower the CBT obligations.
The Padres themselves pivoted to something very similar the day after Judge turned them down. Bogaerts’ $280MM contract was spread over 11 years. The week before that, the Phillies (another team that paid the CBT in 2022 and is likely to do so again next year) stretched to 11 years to land Turner on a $300MM deal. A few years ago, Philadelphia went to 13 years to ink a then-record $330MM free agent deal for Bryce Harper.
Those commitments of more than a decade for superstars are the most obvious examples of stretching contracts longer than most had anticipated, but one could argue it sometimes occurs for the next tier of player as well. Brandon Nimmo was generally expected to land a five or six-year guarantee this offseason. The Mets went to eight years and $162MM, dropping the AAV to just above $20MM but pushing the total guarantee beyond the anticipated range. Two offseasons ago, the Yankees stretched a $90MM guarantee over six seasons (a $15MM annual salary that was below general expectations) for DJ LeMahieu, who was entering his age-32 season at the time. MLB has approved or is expected to approve — Nimmo’s deal has technically not yet been announced — all those contracts. The top free agent starter remaining, Carlos Rodón, is reportedly looking for a seven-plus year deal this offseason. It’s possible large-market teams will view a lengthier term as more desirable, if Rodón correspondingly drops his ask on per-year salary, for this reason.
Clubs have also built in workarounds for luxury tax purposes on contracts for role players via low-cost player options. Player options are treated as guaranteed money for CBT purposes. Tacking on a player option at the end of a contract thus adds an extra year with regards to determining its average annual value. Frontloading a contract and then attaching a lower-salaried player option at the end serves as an effective tax end-around as well. The player receives the bulk of the money on the deal during the guaranteed seasons and generally anticipates declining the player option. Injuries or underperformance could change that calculus, but the understanding of all involved at the time of the deal is that one of the purposes of the option year is to lessen the AAV. The Mets (Taijuan Walker), Astros (Jake Odorizzi) and Yankees (Justin Wilson) have all handed out some variation of this contract in recent years. In each instance, MLB has accepted that transaction.
Of course, the league isn’t in position to preemptively create fixed rules to govern how much tinkering with the AAV constitutes luxury tax manipulation. MLB is left to evaluate things on a case-by-case basis. A 13-year deal for Harper that runs through his age-38 season was acceptable, as was an 11-year pact that goes through Turner’s age-40 campaign. A 14-year contract to take Judge through his age-44 season would evidently not have passed muster.
The Judge situation at least raises the possibility of MLB intervening on future deals it considers to be circumventions of the tax. That’d have the potential to lead to a battle with the union. The 2017-21 collective bargaining agreement mandated that all contracts be submitted to the Commissioner’s Office for approval. If the league rejected an agreed-upon deal, the MLB Players Association would have the right to file a grievance challenging the ruling. The new CBA has not yet been released in full, but there’s no indication that provision was altered. It won’t end up mattering in this instance with the defending AL MVP headed back to the Bronx, but it’s an interesting subplot to the negotiations for this winter’s top free agent.
em650r
Sometimes you have to wonder where the Padres find all this money.
CaptainJudge99
It doesn’t matter about the $ at all. Neither player was ever going to San Diego.
Deadguy
Not alot of people understand this…. the Padres were Esteban Loaiza’s boss
cloutthedriver
It’s not like the Yankees have players lining up to play for them in that trash ass city especially since they can’t beat the Astros haha
Poster formerly known as . . .
A city you’ve probably never been in.
twitter.com/snyyankees/status/1207335252663758848
JerryCavender
Judge was never leaving the Yankees. They basically bid against themselves. Just wait till years 5-9 of that contract!! And yes the Trashstros are in their heads!!
Yankee Clipper
How were they bidding against themselves when they weren’t even the highest bid out of three teams? Two teams offered more than they did and they matched one of the two team’s higher offers (Giants). Meanwhile, Judge chose to take a potential loss of $40MM to come back to the NYY. That’s the antithesis of bidding against themselves.
User 401527550
Who were the two teams? The article clearly stated that the Padres didn’t make the offer but were contemplating it. The Giants offer was the same as the Yankees.
Yankee Clipper
Mets, you are correct, which is why I said potentially leaving $40MM on the table. It was poor wording on my part because he agreed with the Yanks before the official offer came through from the Padres. Nonetheless, the Padres were entering the bidding for his services, and clearly not in any way that would cause the Yankees to artificially bid higher.
Many people (by several polls, more than half) had Judge going to SF because of his family, etc, etc. Yankees simply matched their offer. Even if you remove the Padres altogether, it still is antithetical to the theory the Yankees bid against themselves by matching a higher offer of SFG, which most people (myself included) had him signing with.
robluca21
That’s not nice clout. Your commebt makes you sound bitter and jealous. Some people like big cities and dislike the burbs or the Midwest. I happen to love new york and places like Montana and Wyoming for different reasons.
Try not to be so angry and bitter. Life is way too short. Be happy.
Yanks2
What GM isn’t worth millions or billions of dollars?
Yanks2
Nah it keeps the league competitive by not allowing certain teams to have too much advantage
vtadave
Pretty sure Preller and other GMs aren’t worth billions.
Deadguy
“Rockstar GM” what do you mean?
Padres2019ha
Chill 5 second Bob you on repeat
FSF
FTX embezzled crytpo?
mattmonteith
Peter Seidler (Padres principal owner) is worth approximately $3 billion. He made his money in the financial world as the founder of Seidler Equity Partners, a private equity firm. He comes from a baseball family as well. His grandfather was Walter O’Malley, the Dodgers owner who brought the Dodgers to Los Angeles. Seidler has stated in interviews that his only goal is to bring a championship to San Diego, and that he enjoys spending money. “You can’t take it with you” were his exact words. In my opinion, he is a breath of fresh air in a sports entertainment business that has seen more and more owners try to run their teams like mom and pop shops.
SocoComfort
“He comes from a baseball family as well. His grandfather was Walter O’Malley, the Dodgers owner who brought the Dodgers to Los Angeles.”
So he comes from a not so good baseball family. The Dodgers and Giants going out west was a dark moment for the sport imo.
websoulsurfer
Dark moment for the sport. LMFAO.
avenger65
Agree.
SocoComfort
Yea it was a dark moment for the sport like Yankee Stadium being torn down or the Black Sox scandal. You legit relocate two of the most beloved teams in the game across the country and relocate thousands of Hispanics to build dodger stadium. Brooklyn absolutely loved their dodgers
los_leebos
buriedundertheblue.com
websoulsurfer
LA fans today absolutely love their Dodgers. SF fans love their Giants. San Diego fans love their Padres. Seattle Fans love their Mariners.
What was done to build the stadium was done by the city of Los Angeles. The Dodgers didn’t move to LA and immediately into that stadium. They played at the Coliseum from 1958 to 1961.
Moving to the west coast literally saved a dying Dodgers franchise.
Attendance was down at Ebbets Field. The final year in Brooklyn they drew less than 7k per game and that was after winning a WS in 1955 and being in the WS in 1956. In 1956 they only averaged 7876 fans per game. They were losing money. The city had refused to allow them to build a new stadium for a decade. They couldn’t survive in Ebbets Field
The first game in LA drew 78k to the Coliseum. The Dodgers drew nearly twice as many fans that first year in LA than in the last few years in Brooklyn and it went up from there. The year Dodger stadium opened they drew 1.7 million more fans than they had in 1957 in Brooklyn.
That was a time where teams were not paid to be on TV and their radio deals wouldn’t pay the salary of the groundskeeper.
The Dodgers would have gone bankrupt and faded into the mists of the pasts if they had not moved to LA.
SocoComfort
Yea people don’t turn out to the stadium when they know their team is leaving. When you feel betrayed like many dodgers fans did (plenty of testimonials) people don’t show up to the game. What if the dodgers in 20 years can’t build a new stadium and they decide to leave for Nashville? The dodgers were looking into building where Shea used to sit. That would not have stung nearly as much as moving a team across the country. How many times has Wrigley or Fenway been renovated?
Poster formerly known as . . .
“You . . . relocate thousands of Hispanics to build dodger stadium.”
Say what?
websoulsurfer
What part of they didn’t show up in two seasons when their team was fantastic and won the pennant did you not understand?
No one knew for sure that O’Malley would move the team because HE didn’t know he would move the team until 1957. Attendance was already in the dumpster.
No, they weren’t looking to build where Shea was built. O’Malley had a new 55k seat stadium designed that he wanted to build at the corner of Flatbush and Atlantic Aves. That was repeatedly shot down by the city from 1947 until what turned out to be their final denial in May of 1957
LA is the 2nd largest TV market and that is not going to change in our lifetimes. Probably not in our children’s lifetimes. No team is moving from a large TV market to a small one. The Dodger’s just finished a renovation of Dodger Stadium. As you said, stadiums are renovated.
Ebbets Field was locked in. It was small, including standing room tickets capacity was under 32k, and could not be expanded. It was a dump. There was no parking. People were not coming to the park even when the team was were winning.
websoulsurfer
The City of LA evicted a few thousand people on short notice using eminent domain laws to build Dodger Stadium. Most were Hispanic.
tedtheodorelogan
NY doesn’t need 4 teams
Cg141
Well, the Dodgers and Giants didn’t leave the Mets would never have existed.
FloridaSportsGuy
TIL that three communities were displaced by eminent domain in order for Dodger Stadium to be placed. What garbage. In addition to buriedundertheblue.com, I found chavezravine.org. Apparently the owner of the Dodgers was then able to buy that land for a whole dollar. Just awful and nothing has changed in decades. People with less money (which equals speech) are displaced, paid pennies on the dollar for their property, and wealthy people then purchase that property for pennies. I also recently learned about Wisconsin doing something similar, but to lure Foxconn to build a factory there. Eminent domain was used to seize farms for that to happen.
los_leebos
@fink, yeah “relocate” is such a kind word. The correct phrase is “forcibly evict under threat of violence”
JoeBrady
Eminent domain was used to seize farms for that to happen.
=============================
It supposedly happened to my parents house to build a high-rise tenement in The Bronx, and to my wife’s family to build the Major Deegan.
Poster formerly known as . . .
The Texas Rangers also invoked eminent domain to take land from families who’d held it for generations so they could build a stadium on their property. The families took them to court but lost their property anyway.
los_leebos
Anyone looking for more info on the dodgers stadium story should read “Stealing Home” by Eric Nusbaum
tedtheodorelogan
Gotta respect that.
James Midway
They had great attendance last year. They recently changed their uniforms that sold tons of merch. Motorola is the new uniform sponsor. There are lots of revenue streams teams get. Some ownership groups pocket this money or invest it elsewhere. The Padres put it toward payroll.
tedtheodorelogan
Got that sick pager money. Personally, I prefer the root beer. Probably why the friars went back to the brown unis.
Yankee Clipper
Don’t forget that money is about to increase substantially because starting….next season (?) they start adding sponsors to the uniforms.
NickinIthaca
Ugh…. barf. There are so many terrible things that Manfred is doing to the game, I completely forgot about that one. How long until the jerseys look like Nascar uniforms? 5 Years?
Deadguy
Ithaca
What a place, I visited in a dream once. I miss her
websoulsurfer
About $6 million per team.
avenger65
They’ll look like little league uniforms. It also might cause conflicts. If a player is paid to wear Nike’s, would he wear a uniform with Adidas as the sponsor?
Yankee Clipper
Websoul: I think that going to skyrocket, similar to how commercials’ costs did, especially during postseason performances.
websoulsurfer
Players in MLB can’t have a contract with a specific clothing manufacturer while they are active players. .
websoulsurfer
The teams can only have the one patch on the patch and the amount they can sell it for is capped per the CBA.
MLB can sell one decal on the batting helmets.
I think in the next CBA we might see a couple patches on the jersey, one or two on the pants and one for the shoes and cap.
Yankee Clipper
Yeah, my apologies if I wasn’t clear, I meant future. I wasn’t aware of the limited patches on uniforms and helmet though, so thanks for the information on that.
I did hear the RSox patch is really large. I haven’t seen a picture of it but Chris Rose was talking about it on his podcast. Sounds….yucky.
websoulsurfer
I hate the idea of it at all, but I guess it was inevitable. Today only the NFL doesn’t allow non-league or team logos on uniforms, helmets, etc…
JoeBrady
avenger6511 hours ago
They’ll look like little league uniforms.
=============================
You won’t even notice them. Just like advertisements, they will just fade away. Folks object to everything.
JoeBrady
only the NFL doesn’t allow non-league or team logos on uniforms, helmets,
=============================
Currently, NFL cleats and uniforms display the logos of the manufacturer. Practice jerseys are permitted to have sponsorship patches.
TeeBallChampion
They’re huge. WAY bigger than the NBA jersey ads. At least they’re on the sleeves instead of the front..
Poster formerly known as . . .
They already had sponsorship patches on the umps’ uniforms — for FTX, the now bankrupt crypto outfit.
How appropriate.
I just don’t want them to go the route of Major League Soccer, where the uniforms are a harlequin hodgepodge of endorsement insignia.
But they probably will. There’s a buck to be made.
rizdakc99
They don’t have to compete with the Chargers (or Clippers) anymore. It’s a metropolitan monopoly now.
websoulsurfer
They are the only major league game in town. No NFL, NHL, NBA, or even MLS.
Deadguy
Rockstar GM, what do you mean?
Ronk325
Every single “small market” team in the league is capable of changing course and opening up their checkbooks like the Padres. It’s just a matter of owners deciding to end their greed
Samuel
LOL
JoeBrady
Every single “small market” team in the league is capable of changing course and opening up their checkbooks like the Padres.
====================================
ROTFLMAO!!!
16 teams have revenue (per Forbes) of less than $300M. And you think all these teams can spend > $300M on payroll alone? Without even mentioning supporting the front office, scouting, and other little things, like paying for a stadium?
Seriously?
bhambrave
@Joe: Do you believe everything you read? Teams’ books are closed (other than the Braves), so no one really knows how much they are making. They can cook the books (like the major film studios do. The studios do it to shaft actors who have contracts giving them a share of net profits.) to make it look like they are just getting by.
Ronk325
To piggyback what brave said, you’re a fool if you believe those numbers. I’m not saying every team should have a $200MM+ payroll every year, clearly unrealistic for several reasons. However these “small market” teams can and should push to around $150MM for a short period when they get a strong core together. In case you haven’t noticed, a low spending team hasn’t won the WS since 2015 and that streak isn’t likely to end anytime soon
brucebochyisthemarlboroman
Padres money printing machine go brrrrrrrrrrrr
damascusj
Well, like seidler said, he’s a billionaire, and he can’t take his money with him when he does.
Honestly, I don’t care if he spends it all stupid like or not, he’s the best padres owner in my lifetime, willing to spend and try to bring a championship to the city
Chaosgaming
You realize that Peter Siedler, owner of the Padres has a net worth of $3 Billion right? Add in that they are the only major professional sport in the 8th largest city in the country. An owner willing to spend what it takes to bring a championship to SD, you have a gm that isn’t afraid to make deals upon deals.
solaris602
Lost in all this madness is the fact that SD is still on the hook for the majority of the $36M over the next 3 years on the Hosmer contract. Not to worry – that $400M will be going to Soto in short order.
sportsfan101
Mlb n it’s so called salary cap is a joke
Fever Pitch Guy
sports – There is no cap, just luxury tax thresholds.
I don’t see why stretching out contracts is an issue, they’ve been doing it for decades. The players are shorting themselves because a guy like Xander, if his $280M was spread over let’s say 7 years, would have had an opportunity for another contract prior to the 2030 season.
Samuel
sportsfan101;
I’d guess that much harsher penalties will be enacted shortly, and the loopholes will be closed.
That’s how these things tend to work with bureaucracies.
The thing about MLB the past 20-25 years though is how backwards they are compared to the other professional sports leagues in anticipating and having policies in place for things like steroid use and using electronic equipment to steal signs. It seems to go on with that league until the abuse becomes so obvious that they’re forced to step in and do something about it.
websoulsurfer
Samuel, One of the biggest hurdles to getting the current CBA negotiated was how strict the penalties were for teams that surpassed the CBT thresholds. The MLBPA felt that it artificially lowered player salaries at a time when MLB revenue is growing incredibly fast.
MLB cannot make any changes to the CBT unless it’s negotiated with the MLBPA in a new CBA. That will happen in 4 years. Until then it will be exactly as you see it.
Tony Clark and Bruce Meyer both said coming out of the previous negotiations that lessening those penalties or getting rid of them entirely will be THE issue of the next CBA negotiations.
Those penalties are not going to get stricter. The MLBPA is going to want the CBT threshold go up to the point where the penalties will be minimal and only effect teams that are spending far in excess of what median level teams can spend. Median revenue per team is around $400 million today, meaning half the teams in baseball can surpass the CBT threshhold without impacting profitability. That was never the intent of the CBT.
Samuel
websoulsurfer;
What you’ll see – even before the rest of this FA season is over – is that mid-level players will not get paid. In fact, the union will call it collusion, but it won’t be.
When upper echelon players eat up too much of a payroll, then teams need to make a decision. A few high priced players will be kept, but not as many as used to be. Mid-Level players will either remain unsigned, or have to accept lower salaries. Young and cheaper players that can produce decently will become coin of the realm.
That’s already happened to some degree in MLB. Mid-Tier players not getting paid was talked about before the negotiations for this years CBA. This just accelerates the process I brought up.
Not trying to be political, but history shows that this is what unions using a form of socialism causes. The middle class shrinks – most are haves or have nots. We see this happening in America today. Why shouldn’t it happen in a professional sports league?
Cap & Crunch
Samuel is correct
Its why I found the Harper/Machado vs owners collusion scandal that took over this board for 6 months so hilarious and ill-sighted
The truthers pinned a bow on Paul Revere in the end , the fat cats lit up a cigar as the mini fire went away over-night rather harmlessly , the players association took a quick short smug bow, and Machado and Harper tipped their hats in solitude
And nothing changed
websoulsurfer
That is not true. We have already seen mid-level free agents get paid and get paid more than anyone thought they would.
The only reason a team has to make a decision is if they are trying to stay under the CBT threshold. It’s not a cap.
The reason for the income disparity in the US is the lack of unions and collective bargaining. When there were the most people belonging to unions, the middle class was at its largest and strongest.
You were being political with that last section of your comment, and you were also wrong with your entire comment.
Ra
The Middle Class was born from Unions and labor representation. You have things backwards with the shrinking of the Middle Class, which resulted from Union busting of the past 40 years.
Ra
Well said, websoulsurfer.
And yes, samuel was provoking a political argument clearly.
Surly_03
Why not offer $500 million for 20 years?
If inflation persists then $25M will be peanuts in 20 years.
Yeah yeah MLB will veto it. Imagine being governed by the morally corrupt?
kylegocougs
Every American has always been ruled by the morally corrupt since… Eisenhower? FDR? George Washington?
.
Is FDR the one that chopped down the cherry tree?
Samuel
kylegocougs;
Sure is going on today.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Why would someone cut down a cherry tree, then you can’t eat the cherries. Cut down a non-fruit producing tree if you need firewood on a cold winter night.
Holy Cow!
He cut it down so he could not tell a lie. George was all about building his legend.
Cap & Crunch
I think in a perfect world you would have the amazing revenue sharing of the NFL (this DEF includes Tv $) and the structure of the NBA cap that has REAL cap bylaws
But baseball lives in neither world; nor seems to care as long as the people who are greasing their hands currently continue to get greased
Despite making record amounts of money to date everyone in baseball still values squeezing an extra Nickle out than fixing up some of the cracks in the foundation
These are the Questions that should be at the forefront of the CBA talks but instead all we hear is millionaires v billionaires
websoulsurfer
In the NFL revenues are an open book. The players know exactly how much the owners make.
In MLB only two teams have open books and that is because they are owned by public corporation and are required to disclose that information. None of the other teams publicly disclose their revenue.
Until the MLB owners decide it would be to their benefit to open the books, that won’t happen.
JoeBrady
In the NFL revenues are an open book.
======================================
That’s only because of revenue sharing. If the BB players want revenue sharing, which they should, the owners will open up their books. It’s like asking the local service station owner how much they make. If you’re his partner, he tells you. If you’re not, he laughs at the suggestion.
Ra
You can’t force out the regional sports network contracts so there will never be true revenue sharing in MLB.
Brew’88
Guess the league wants its piece o da pie
GMoney2850
Padres laundering money for the cartel. Only explanation
Samuel
The Padres have the best team that money can buy (and I doubt they’re through).
What they don’t have – and will not have – is the best team.
JoeBrady
You’d think that MLB would have the alternative of simply re-valuing a contract. To me, and others, the Bogaerts contract looks like a $280M/8 ($35M per) contract. MLB should have the ability to consider it to be the same. The union should have no objection, and 29 other teams would have no objection.
Yankee Clipper
I was shocked to read MLB would’ve considered a veto. I mean, it makes total sense obviously, but could you imagine if he’d accepted and they vetoed the #1 FA signing the highest paying contract of all time?!
What a disaster. He would’ve been 45-years-old by the time they agreed to something.
@JeffLac
This is a really good point.- revaluing the deal (and only doing so in extreme cases) allows everyone to get what they want out of the process.
The article was really enlightening – I had no idea MLB would veto a deal like this. I’ve always wondered why teams aren’t putting 15- and 20-year deals on the table to sign players until they’re 50 years old to lower the AAV. Now I have the answer!
JeffreyChungus
Hey Joe, I just read your comment on an article about how to Padres’ reported offer of $400M to Aaron Judge wasn’t offered at all. It made me think about the other night when you said it was foolish to think front office staffers ever leaked information. Wondering if you’ve started connecting the dots on how this stuff gets out
PL
Why would players agree to this? That luxury tax money goes to owners like Bob Nutting who stuffs it in his pockets. Guarantee they are on board with teams trying to circumvent the luxury tax.
Samuel
PL;
Tired of hearing it.
Prove it or STFU.
People are not in business to lose money. If they don’t turn a profit they’d be morons to invest in something, assume massive potential liabilities, and work 24/7/365 to oversee the product….among other things.
You want to close down all the small market franchises. Fine. Do it! Then they’ll work their way up to run the lower mid-market franchises out.
websoulsurfer
Wow Samuel. Can you be any more confrontational or uninformed?
From the two teams that have to open their books we know approximately what the revenue and costs are for most teams. The only things we don’t know is how much teams get from revenue sharing.
From public disclosures from Manfred, we know that median team revenue, not including local TV deals, is about $366 million.
We know exactly how much the players made. That is public. Using the CBT calculation which includes benefits and travel expenses, the median amount per team was $146 million in 2022.
There is a bit of a gap between what the players were paid and the 48-50% that the players in all other major sports get paid.
MLB owners have a monopoly, and they are taking advantage of that to reap huge profits. Some like Nutting more than others like Seidler.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
You don’t have to turn a profit if every decade the value that you can sell your business doubles. It is like holding stock that appreciates but pays no dividends.
websoulsurfer
Teams do make a profit though. Some like the Pirates and A’s are cash stream cows for their owners. Eventually they will sell and make even more. Let’s hope that day is soon for both teams.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
I understand that.
One, there are costs other than player salaries.
Two, if an owner wanted to incur costs equal to revenues, they would still make a lot of money because the team values increase so fast.
That being said, there is every reason to believe that every team is coming out ahead every year.
JoeBrady
Some like the Pirates and A’s are cash stream cows for their owners.
============================
According to Forbes, the As lost $8.7M last year.
Ra
I don’t believe the A’s lost money.
And I find Forbes dubious as a source, regardless of their famous franchise valuations.
Yankee Clipper
Ra: The Rays’ Stu Sternberg also claimed the Rays “lost” money each season. But they delved into the numbers and couldn’t figure out exactly how he’s losing money, since his revenue was about 2.5x total payroll.
I still believe (perhaps ignorantly so) that through tax loopholes, crafty bookkeeping, and other revenue streams that they’re making far more than what we could ever anticipate.
There’s no way the MLB would force the Rays to stay where they are if they were losing money every year. I don’t buy it.
Holy Cow!
Haha, Samuel sucking Nutting.
websoulsurfer
That would affect player salaries so that would be something that would have to be collectively bargained.
The union would have a huge objection because they feel the penalties for surpassing the CBT threshold already artificially deflate player salaries. For that reason, MLB being able to arbitrarily change contract would never, ever fly with the union.
John Bird
Interesting that MLB intervened in this case but none others. Almost like MLB wanted Judge to sign with NY. BTW did you guys see the report about MLB using juiced balls at Yankee games last season?
sports.yahoo.com/mlb-reportedly-used-three-basebal…
Yankee Clipper
John, although that is true, it was primarily at postseason games… so, it is a tad misleading to say “Yankees games” unless you’re referring to regular season only. But the results of this specialized third baseball were contested:
“ Major League Baseball and Rawlings, who manufactures the balls, disputed Insider’s latest report and Wills’ findings. Insider noted that all the balls obtained fell within the specifications detailed in MLB’s rulebook”
While there is concern because I don’t trust Manfred/MLB, whether it meets specifications in the rule book is indisputable. Also, they didn’t collect baseballs from every single stadium either. There’s a lot left to be desired for a valid testing process to prove a hypothesis here.
Again, that doesn’t mean there isn’t something here, but there isn’t anything conclusive about MLB or the Yankees. I’m sure more will come out about this, unless it simply gets buried.
websoulsurfer
YC, Did you read the article? It said that the balls were used during the regular season and postulated that they were used because of the PR boost Judge’s home run chase gave to MLB.
Samuel
Joe (this wound up being long, but please stay with me);
The Yankees and Red Sox used to lock up all the international stars by going through back channels to tell their agents to let teams drafting ahead of them know that they wouldn’t sign with them – meaning the teams would waste their draft pick and not get anything. So those 2 teams still got the best prospects for a while. That’s why they had to pass the screwball legislation where draft slots had salaries attached to them. Players that waited were going to get a smaller bonus.
The only thing new here is that instead of the Yankees and Red Sox throwing their weight around, a couple of billionaires bought the Mets and Padres, and they’ll do anything not covered in the bylaws to win. No different than the environmental laws used to be – companies would pay the fines because it was cheaper than investing in systems to minimize what they were putting into the air and water.
From the first time I saw Preller I thought there was something slimly about him – and later found out he’d done things with the Rangers that weren’t on the up-and-up (putting it politely). He fits perfectly with Peter Seidler. See mattmonteith’s comment above…..”you can’t take it with you”. These sorts of owners have happened in MLB history. The problem is that it undermines the league and subsequently fans in other cities realize that their teams can’t possibly compete (a problem MLB already has).
What strikes me is that outside entities such as MLBTR determine the value of free agents, and usually are in the ballpark. The Bogaerts contract is terribly out of whack, and everyone associated with MLB knows it. Just as arbiters are used with players under 6 years of service, something like that will have to be put in for the free agents.
mattmonteith writes that Mr. Seidler is: “….a breath of fresh air in a sports entertainment business that has seen more and more owners try to run their teams like mom and pop shops.”
Wrong.
MLB owners are equal partners in a business that licenses franchises. It’s a sort of a friendly competition. The owners of the Mets and Padres are undermining that – far worse then the Yankees and Red Sox did (in fact, little San Diego just kicked big bully Boston in their you know what, and when they bent down in pain dropped a load of bricks on their head). The players agents love it, because now they expect those salaries to be the new yardstick, and their clients need to be paid based on statistical comparisons.
That’s why I was shocked when the Bogaerts contract came out. Those 2 owners are going to cause an upheaval that is going to take years to square away….if it ever is squared away. I decided I’ll still watch the small market teams I like to follow some, but there’s no doubt that the playing field wasn’t level before this, and now everything is totally out of hand.
John Bird
I am very sympathetic to the plight of the small market teams. I hate the way teams like the Dodgers and the Mets and now the Padres buy up all the best players. I would like to see something more like the NBA cap with penalties for transactions as well as money,but that will never happen. Nothing against the players getting well paid but having a few super teams and a bunch of also rans will kill the sport.
websoulsurfer
The Padres are a small market team. They are locked in between the LA market, the Diamondbacks, and Mexico. Their TV market is 27th or 28th in the nation.
Holy Cow!
That is true about Tv, but its metro area is over 3 million and larger and more affluent than the true small market teams like Milwaukee, KC, Pittsburgh, and Cincinnati.
JoeBrady
Thanks for the comment, but I kind of disagree.
First, it is only two teams. This probably isn’t much different than when the RS and NYY were the only game in town.
Secondly, let’s say both teams are spending $50M more each than they can normally afford, that only represents buying 2% of the league’s talent.
Thirdly, they pay for that with draft choices & taxes, which funnels down to poorer teams, and helps their efforts.
Fourthly, however much they drive up the salary structure, there are some offsetting economic benefits. When George was around, his spending, imho, drove a huge amount of publicity for people that both hated and loved him.
At the end of the day, if the RS lose, it won’t be because the Padres bought Bogaerts. The $28M or so that they did not spend on Bogaerts will be spent elsewhere, and the difference between Bogaerts projects WAR, or the WAR of other player(s) $28M worth of WAR, will be de minimis.
whyhayzee
“Jon Heyman of the New York Post added some clarity on the matter last night“
Of course he did, good Lord, why bother with this guy?
Yankee Clipper
Yeah, two of America’s most trusted sources:
Bob Nightengale & John Heyman.
ham77
No matter what rules are put in place teams will find a way around them.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
Sounds like collusion to me by vetoing a contract.
websoulsurfer
Which is exactly what the MLBPA would have said in their grievance with the NLRB panel. That federal agency would ultimately decide whether or not the Padres could extend a contract like that. MLB would likely lose that fight and it would have to be something that was negotiated in the next CBA.
flamingbagofpoop
Do you mean the MLBPA would lose?
websoulsurfer
Unless the specific parameters of employer actions regarding contracts are laid out in the CBA, and it’s not in this case, the NLRB typically rules in the favor of the employee in cases like these.
MLBPA would win this case. The owners would likely take a loss on the grievance at the NLRB to court, but in the meantime the contract in question would stand.
reflect
Agreed. My thoughts was that MLB has no real basis here.
flamingbagofpoop
Seems like you probably don’t understand collusion then.
User 4245925809
vetoing the 14y contract is really no different than paying a guy multiple millions of a deal years after they have retired, which several teams do in order to lower current aav of deals. mlb is being odd over that and maybe have run into trouble yet again if it had tried that.
bhambrave
Deferred money is included in the CBT calculation.
SocoComfort
@johnsilver The issue is that the deferred money you are talking about isn’t as publicized and are not headlines like these deals are. MLB cares about their perception. As an example MLB probably knew about the sticky stuff situation but didn’t act upon it until Bauer made it public and some fans got mad. They aren’t worried about the integrity of the game but rather what the public and fans think. Many fans especially smaller market fans hate what they see going on with these deals. I would not bet surprised if MLB does something to alter the luxury tax on the future. Not sure how and when all that would be worked out. Maybe next CBA idk.
flamingbagofpoop
No…the difference is that deferred money doesn’t circumvent the CBT, it has nothing to do with whether or not it’s in headlines.
websoulsurfer
There is nothing in the CBA that says a team cannot sign a 14-year deal for a player, even if it takes him to age 44.
It would be on MLB to prove that it’s not possible for that player to continue to play until that age and since others have played to age 44 and beyond, they can’t prove it.
Mattimeo09
BREAKING NEWS: They didn’t get him
Jung Like My Daddy
Story isn’t so much the Padres not signing him as much as it is what the league was prepared to potentially do. Has the league ever vetoed an agreed upon deal?
JoeBrady
Has the league ever vetoed an agreed upon deal?
===============================
I don’t think they vetoed one, but I do believe that they restructured the accounting for some.
This is not the first attempt at this, iirc. I believe the original attempt was along the line of a $7M player get $5M, plus a $20M team option with a $2M buyout. So originally treated it as a $7M/2 until the league got smart and treated it as $7M/1.
They also used player options where the team signed someone to a $10M contract with a $1M player option. The team treated as $11M/2, even though they knew the player would decline the option.
bhambrave
The league used to have a rule that not more than $1M cash could be included in a deal. Obviously that’s gone by the wayside.
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I had to collect my thoughts for a second when I read the headline
..I thought they were still in the running for a second.
Jung Like My Daddy
Not a good look for the mlb quite honestly.
I’m glad we didn’t sign judge to 400 million. That contract would probably age poorly as many do.
But the league letting it slip that it’d veto the deal just because the Padres wouldn’t pay as much in taxes is ripe for the players union to use against the league during the next round of cba negotiations.
flamingbagofpoop
Yeah, what a terrible thing, the league acting within their power to enforce the thing they put in place.
websoulsurfer
The league didn’t put it in place. They negotiated it to be in the CBA.
Unfortunately for them, they didn’t negotiate this set of particular set of circumstances specifically, so unless they can prove that it’s not possible to play until a player is 44-45 years of age, they would lose this case if the MLBPA brought a grievance to the NLRB.
Other players have played to that age, so the case against MLB if they did decline to approve the contract the Padres reportedly were going to offer Judge would have been a slam dunk for the MLBPA in the hearing.
astick
The first time you were able and I didn’t have a chance I just wanted you know I love and I love and miss your heart
casorgreener
In other words, the whole contract was probably a lie! I mean come on “they were prepared to offer” and “MLB would have vetoed” its a joke. A bunch of fake rumors. Many of these reported offers are lies to Jack up prices. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Giants only offered $300m. Yankees bid against themselves. To get a guy they could have got for 50-75M if they hadn’t low balled him
DarkSide830
Their what of who?
skip55
have a five year limit on contracts
bhambrave
Great article! Thanks!
.
Ohtani 20 years 600mil
Ghost Pepper
Maybe SD is just saving their money for Soto.
The Saber-toothed Superfife
Well, heck….I’ve decided…..
If I were participating in a revenue sharing situation…..
I would rather give that money to my employees and invest in my product. I suppose.
All things being equal, that is.
Yankee Clipper
I can’t believe the Padres offered 14 years for a soon-to-be 31-year-old. I thought 9 was a lot! Goodness, that’s like deferring without…ya know, actually saying it. “Just sit in the dugout and try not to die for the next five, Aaron.” The Padres manager in 2035 would be like, “Hey Mr Judge, I used to watch you when I was a little kid”
I know Preller takes risks, but whoa…
.
No Clip, Tatis Jr would have been the one saying that to him. Not to croak AND that he remembered him as a sprat.
Yankee Clipper
True! Followed up with, “Hey, man, want some ringworm cream? Good for the arms…”
.
Hahahahahahahahahahahah
.
Honestly Clip, I think the nickname Fernando Ringworm Jr is pretty darn funny. It’s of course not the most clever thing in the world. But when I see people call him that I can’t help but chuckle. Personally I’m not even that bothered or pissed at him anymore. Just wanna see him play. Our amigo Altuve is another story though..
Ra
Or they’d send Judge out on the rubber chicken circuit for the last six years of the contract as a goodwill ambassador.
Manfred’s playing with the balls
Manfred juiced the balls and was willing to cancel contracts?
Drew Waters Bat
He has already vetoed an All Star Game for complete and fully debunked lie but if people keep screaming loud enough, he jumps like a dog to help. Incredible that the Mets and Dodgers as well as other teams can keep deferring money for more than 20 years but for some reason the Commissioner feels the need to keep trying to micro manage everything and step in for an 11 year contract? How about explain why the only company you’ve you put on the umpires has so much shady activity. Why do you make a gag order to keep your mouth shut and the bad press away from the Astros and their cheating scandal to levy the fines you did against John C and the Braves for something that even Manfraud knew every single team was actively engaged in. But he decides to try make an Example of the Braves. Sad joke that guy is.
DTD/ATL1313
It’s almost like any issue with salaries could be solved with a cap and a floor. Oh well
terrymesmer
Give it a rest.
GiantsX3
The Padres front office must’ve found the secret our government uses to print cash at will.
rabidrabbit
LOL, the jokes about 20 year contracts are manifesting as reality as we speak
Cuso
And yet we still have Bobby Bonilla day every summer until 2032
OldSaltUSNR
Hey, a team needs THAT kind of …. “consistency”. Maybe he’ll show up in Spring Training to toss out a couple of balls from his wheel chair.
websoulsurfer
There was no CBT when he signed that deal.
flamingbagofpoop
deferred money doesn’t circumvent the luxury tax (that didn’t even exist when that contract was handed out).
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
Vetoing a deal would really irritate Aaron Judge if he had chosen to accept that. The money is between the players and teams (owners). MLB has no right to interfere with this. MLB blocked Arod’s trade to NYY first when he offered to take a pay cut to facilitate the deal since they didn’t want to set a precedent. This is annoying too in that the Padres would still be paying that amount over more years. It would and should display terrible optics for MLB, so that was averted. Regardless, this does make the story that the Padres offered 400 million and lost more understandable. I dislike the reporters’ decision to jump the gun and imply this is like what happened with other players with the Padres and Red Sox (a player just disliking the team).
ellisd19830
they vetoed arod to the redsox for manny.. not any Yankee deal
Cleon Jones
Next cba needs to cap term, not $$. 6 year contracts max term. AAV of 50m, whatever, but cap the term. And institute a salary floor. No payroll under 140M without penalty.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
It should be an age cap, not a length cap. Alex Rodriguez would have made sense to offer a 10 year deal to when he first hit free agency. Max Scherzer and Justin Verlander probably shouldn’t be getting 6 years at their ages. on the other hand
bhambrave
The only caps I like are baseball caps. Let the players make as much as they want for as long as they want.
websoulsurfer
Good luck on that. With league revenue growing the MLBPA will never agree to anything that would cap player earnings.
JoeBrady
That’s why the union are idiots for not taking a percentage. The league earnings are growing quite healthy. The players, not so very much.
The Saber-toothed Superfife
That is implying the team will just cut the player rather than carry them on the roster.
Simple answer.
Include a penalty tax recalculation IF a team cuts a player before the expiration of the contract.
Not a difficult situation to resolve.
bhambrave
I like it. If he’s cut, the entire remainder counts toward that year’s CBT calculation.
websoulsurfer
The player will just retire and get a personal services contract with the team. Say Judge retired at age 40 with 4 years remaining on the deal. The Padres would just give him a $5 million per year personal services contract for the rest of his life.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Good idea.
Yankee Clipper
What if the team signs the player but the fans vote on the contract dollars and term? Just take it completely out of the hands of everyone else? Yeah, I like it.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
Now there won’t be any Hot Stove till after New Years. Back to the lull.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
As great as Alex Rodriguez was (perhaps the best shortstop of all time), he managed to make close to 400 million in his career, even after moving to 3rd base with NYY. Aaron Judge won’t even get as much in his career as Alex Rodriguez. It is hard to fully take in what Rodriguez was able to do with some good contract years and desperate teams. Mookie Betts won’t even do this if he retires at the end of his contract. I can only think of Mike Trout as one who will surpass his earnings. Considering inflation, that is quite a feat for Arod. His first contract was well-worth it, but his opt-out clause allowed him to get a terrible second contract for 10/275 after the 10/252. These numbers are based on baseball reference and include the money he lost in 2014 due to the suspension.
number1dodger
Apparently it wasn’t the money.
He just did not want to wear a Padres uniform. Honestly who wants to wear a brown and yellow uniform from the 70s.
The brown looks like crap. And the yellow looks old and dingy. However, I do like the desert digital military style. I spent 18 months in Iraq wearing a uniform that was digital grey.
Padres2019ha
Lol most would disagree. We love our brown and mustard. Better than our blue and sand, barf.
You sound like a crap sourpuss pitcher named Chris Paddack
number1dodger
Now I like the blue jerseys. And the military digital. Not to excited about the 1970s brown and yellow. Mustard yellow? So it has a name. If they just got rid of the yellow. And went with brown and military green. Or brown and grey. Just get rid of the yellow.
Ra
Camo sports unis are ridiculous.
GarryHarris
Aaron Judge was always going to sign with the NYY. SFG and SDP were negotiation pawns. The NYM and LAD knew it; they did not participate.
number1dodger
I never thought Judge would sign anywhere else. I called it when he became a free agent.
I made a few posts saying he was going to re-sign with the Yankees. He was driving up the price. I really don’t think he would have ever signed with the Padres or giants.
Cap & Crunch
Whew, nasty line up down there all in their primes
Can’t put this team outside the top 5 teams in the NL even if you tried
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Cracks me up that y’all are so worried about other people’s money..You do realize that what Seidler has done is along the lines of instead of pocketing say..300m/season, to only pocketing a portion of that..right? The guy’s a billionaire..and if he can even end up pocketing say 50m a season, while elevating himself to Godlike status in San Diego by winning a championship or two, he’ll more than make that money up on the backend.
Plus..wonder how much the Padres have grown in value since he bought them? Betcha they’ve quadrupled at least.
More owners should be like him.
LFGSD
Cap & Crunch
AND, he can be a true Roman God who gets to still wear sandals to dinner w/out any cross eyed looks
The thing I miss most about SD, sandals 320 days a year breakfast lunch and dinner
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Exactly! Sorry bout being the king of “America’s Finest City” while still raking in millions to stack on top of his billions while chillin at the beach 10 months a year. Love this site, and love the comment section, but most here just over analyze as if they’re the ones spending the money..
Meanwhile, Seidler’s chillin with his sandles on, knowing that he’s doing something great for the city, and igniting a long dormant fan base.
Dude’s the best owner in sports right now..and it’s great to see for Xan Diego!
Padres2019ha
10x
These ladies should just worry about their own teams
bhambrave
Most fans just wish their owners would spend to put a better team on the field. I feel bad for fans of teams like the Pirates and the A’s.
Heck, I wish the Braves had an owner, not a corporation.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
As Padres fans, many of us feel that pain..and have been for years..I get it..but am so happy that the cycle has changed in SD.
RynoScoobs
Not sure why anybody even bothers to read Jon “Arson Judge” Heyman anymore. The guy writes filler content: Longwinded articles filled with caveats and conjecture that say nothing.
“The Padres were maybe going to offer this, but then the the league might have vetoed it, but they probably wouldn’t. Anyway he signed with the Yankees.”
Hard-hitting journalism, Heyman.
KingSall77
Why won’t MLB use a salary cap like the NFL or NBA?
Gwynning
The PA won’t agree to a Cap on earnings. It’s been a nonstarter in CBA talks.
Ra
Because of the revenue from regional sports networks. Certain owners are not going to agree to revenue sharing from those sources, which in turn makes caps and floors inequitable constraints.
KnightOfNiii
Bobby Bonilla sends his best.
Henry Silvestre
Senga announcing Padres tomorrow
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
This is newsworthy? Padres had interest in Judge but never made an offer! So what!
CNichols
I feel like that’s a really difficult line to draw. Adding length to lower the AAV is a component of a lot of these big deals and has been for years. How do you decide when to veto a deal?
This wasn’t an issue when Harper signed for 13, but now Judge can’t for 14? I get that Harper was younger when he got that deal, but it was reported at the time that they purposely lengthened the deal to lower the AAV, which is what they would be vetoing here. Seems like it would be impossible to apply vetos for this consistently.
Shady1771
First off let me say that I absolutely love baseball; always have, always will. I think however that we as humans have lost our sense of priorities in life. We live in a world where we worship athletes who play a game and we are willing to pay them ridiculous sums of money to fail 7 times out of 10 at the plate whereas a heart surgeon who saves lives every day makes roughly half a million a year.
Something is wrong here folks! We value entertainment more than anything else in our society and we don’t think anything is wrong with paying an athlete millions of dollars to fail more often than they succeed.
Kinda sad when you think about it….
bhambrave
I know three heart surgeons. They make WAY more than half a mil. They’re in baseball star territory. The travesty is how much first responders and teachers make.
JoeBrady
They make WAY more than half a mil.
==========================
Not mine. I’m going to find one that gets paid minimum wage.
IRT teachers and first responders, around here, they do really well. In Westchester, you work 30 years and retire at 55 with a pension. And I know someone who wanted to get a job in the sanitation department, and the answer was “not unless you are a personal friend of the mayor”.
JoeBrady
Not sad at all, imo. Entertainment is one of the reasons people work. I bought really nice seats for a Paul McCartney concert at Yankee Stadium. My only regret is that I didn’t ante up a little more to buy floor seats.
The idea of living in a world without entertainment seems a bit far afield to me. And the folks that entertain us should get paid.
WubbaLubbaDubDub
I love all the economists that chose MLBTR as their preferred venue.
Padres2019ha
Most are crypto kids who are pretty salt w envy
Deleted Userr
LONDON BRIDGES FALLING DOWN! FALLING DOWN! FALLING DOWN!
Jon M
Why would the league have done this except it wanted Judge to stay with the Yankees. The league provides enough advantages for them as it is.
AHH-Rox
Because signing a guy through his age 44 season is a pretty blatant attempt to circumvent the luxury tax, like the article says.
Not that MLB doesn’t sometimes coddle the Yankees, but here the Padres were pretty clearly trying to pull a fast one.
Padres2019ha
Circumventing illegal or shrewd?
Ra
“I’m so smart, I don’t pay taxes.”
Old York
He wasn’t going to play for a garbage time team like the Padres. Padres are like the McDonald’s of MLB. You always leave feeling hungry despite spending $15 on a meal-deal.
Padres2019ha
Sounds like you eat fast food a lot old York. Gross.
Old York
I had them once in my life and realized that after an hour, you’re hungry so why would I spend my hard earned money there? That’s how I can make the comparison.
Padres2019ha
Garbage! “Once in your life” musta been recently to spend $15 there.
Old York
Yes, I agree, why would I pay for garbage that makes you hungry 1 hour later?
Padres2019ha
Yes the “garbage” Padres keep signing great players that keep us hungry for more.
Lanidrac
I agree with MLB here. While some teams have stretched the idea already, none have done so to the extreme than San Diego’s proposal entails. I mean, they were offering Judge nearly top dollar until he will be 44 years old! That’s blatantly ridiculous and absolutely stupid if there wasn’t the benefit of lowering their luxury tax number! The odds are that Judge won’t even be able to play anywhere close to that long before getting released and unable to make a comeback with another team!
Padres2019ha
!
!
!
!
Stop yelling!