Xander Bogaerts signed with the Padres on the final day of the Winter Meetings, agreeing to a huge 11-year, $280MM deal. Despite speculation that the Red Sox were coming closer to re-signing the shortstop, “that was definitely not what our impression was throughout the day and even the day before,” Sox chief baseball officer Chaim Bloom told MassLive.com’s Chris Cotillo.
The signing officially ended Bogaerts’ time with the Red Sox, a tenure that began when Bogaerts was an international signing in August 2009 and lasted through 10 Major League seasons, two World Series championship teams, and four All-Star appearances for the shortstop. Bogaerts signed a six-year, $120MM contract extension with the Sox prior to the 2019 season, but chose to exercise his opt-out clause after the first three years of the extension, thus paving the way for his departure from Boston and his new home in San Diego.
Last spring, the Red Sox both signed Trevor Story to a long-term free agent deal and offered Bogaerts only a one-year extension (worth $30MM) on his contract, which were both widely interpreted as signs that the Sox weren’t counting on Bogaerts remaining beyond the date of his opt-out. Bloom publicly said several times that the Red Sox did indeed want to retain Bogaerts, and reiterated that stance even in the aftermath of the shortstop’s deal with the Padres.
“We wouldn’t have said that if we didn’t mean it,” Bloom said. “I think it became clear to us as things went on that this [Bogaerts’ price tag] was going to go to a point that we just weren’t, irrespective of how we prioritize things, it just wasn’t something that we should do. It’s hard because of how much we love him. But it’s just the reality of the situation.”
In fairness to the Red Sox, nobody expected Bogaerts to receive anything near a $280MM contract, and it is understandable why the organization didn’t want to reach that far. That said, reports suggested the Red Sox offered Bogaerts six years and around $160MM, which didn’t match the seven-year, $189MM deal MLBTR projected Bogaerts would land on the open market. In addition, the Sox have obviously had exclusive negotiating rights with Bogaerts for years, and could’ve more aggressively pursued an extension at any point before Bogaerts reached free agency.
Bogaerts joins Mookie Betts and Jon Lester as homegrown Red Sox stars who left the team (Bogaerts in free agency, Betts and Lester in trades) after extension talks didn’t materialize into a longer-term deal. Of course, as Bloom noted, Bogaerts did already ink one extension with the team, putting him “at a different place in his career.” The Sox have signed relatively few extensions in recent years and only three extensions since Bloom took over the front office following the 2019 season. Bloom told Cotillo that the team may change how it approaches extension candidates, perhaps with more of a focus on extending players to contracts before they reach salary arbitration.
“Anytime you have a situation where you have a homegrown player who wants to be here and we want him here and it doesn’t happen, I think those are fair questions to ask and those are questions we certainly need to ask ourselves,” Bloom said. “We haven’t, as an organization, always found a way to come together in those situations. I think it’s something to think about and assess.”
Rafael Devers presents the next big question for the Red Sox in this regard, as the star third baseman is set to reach free agency following the 2023 season. In a separate piece, a source close to Devers told Cotillo that “Bogaerts’ decision would not make it more likely that Devers would want to leave Boston,” as much as Devers would be “disappointed” at no longer playing with his longtime friend.
Bloom reiterated his team’s interest in keeping Devers, saying that “Raffy, for sure, is somebody we want to build around.”
“I’ve said it, and I know we haven’t demonstrated this to the degree that we’ve hoped to, but we believe in building around homegrown talent. You want to do it in the right way,” Bloom said. “It’s certainly something we want to do as often as we can….[Devers] has been somebody that we love and want right at the center of everything we hope to accomplish, obviously in 2023 but more importantly, in the years beyond, because those are the years he’s not under our control. We’re hoping to change that.”
The momentum toward a deal tweet from Pete Abraham was not accurate.
I believe two things:
1. Bogaerts was going to free agency no matter what. That’s how Boras operates.
2. The Red Sox did not want Bogaerts back at where the price was headed and got to.I
Seems like the smart thing to do to not match SD’s offer.
I’m thinking the next signing is a certain pitcher from Japan and that with or without Devers re-upping, the team makes a real play for a certain pitcher/DH who will also be a free agent after 23. They paid a lot for Yoshida but I’m wondering if he wants to play with others from Japan and whether unwritten promises were made.
Hands off! Cubs fans want Senga to play with Suzuki and lure Ohtani if he makes it to free agency. Which gun shy GM will get Kodai? Probably neither.
Not all Japanese players enjoy playing with one another. Just ask Ichiro.
Different – You have nothing to worry about, Bloom has never outbid any team for a player that team really wants. Look at all Bloom’s “top priorities” that have signed elsewhere. There’s zero chance Bloom will give Ohtani market value, much less outbid the competition.
I was right!
“the next signing is a certain pitcher from Japan” and “the team makes a real play for a certain pitcher/DH who will also be a free agent after 23″….
deweybelongsinthehall;
Is what fans of 15 teams on here that don’t have a core of good young players are posting that their teams are going to do in the near future.
Nothing else makes sense to me because Henry & Co. have to see the empty seats and tanking ratings when the team sucks. Unfortunately they see more profit potential in other areas of the Fenway brand. Without the Sox though there would be no Fenway. I’ve said it before there has to be a balance between today and tomorrow. This reminds me of 14 without the WS ring the year before.
Dewey, Henry doesn’t care about empty seats as long as the scalpers are buying up the ticket sales and just not finding repeat buyers, and, as long as they make money on NESN.
The sox ARE selling tickets, people just aren’t going to games. And aside from concessions, people don’t park in RS owned garages for the most part anyways. So, they lose a little in food sales, that’s it.
I’ve scalped we buy 50% below face from season ticket holders and sell 25% below face the days of sellout crowds and reselling at or above face are ovah.
“MLB is not rotisserie league baseball”
Senga said it’s down to SD, NYM and CHC
Interesting. Source?
Yes, I have been thinking along these lines as well.
I think that this should be the Red Sox play, as they are really trying to walk a fine line between competing annually as the fans demand, while building for the future as prudence reccommends.
The task for Bloom and the organization is this: how to build a competitive team without sacrificing your future?
Looking at their prospects, it looks like 2025 should start to see the likes of Mayer, Yorke, Casas, Raffaela, Bello, Mata, etc. begin to play prominent roles on the team. The Sox need to bridge the gap until then and acquire some strong veteran talent to lead those guys.
Thus, I would be ecstatic for them to sign Swanson, Senga, Vazquez, and Conforto to a 1 year deal.
Hernandez CF
Devers 3B
Swanson SS
Conforto DH
Story 2B
Verdugo RF
Yoshida LF
Vazquez C
Casas 1B
This team is competitive, and after the season they could let Conforto and perhaps, terrible as it is to say, Devers walk, and put all of their efforts into signing Ohtani.
jtm – Looking at names in a vacuum leaves you saying this team is competitive.
Think of the division: Now how competitive are these guys?
Kike – worst CF
Devers – top 3B offensively worst defensively
Swanson – not going to be signed due to Mayer
Comforto – not going to happen
Story – top 2B in division but playing SS so not top in division
Verdugo – middle of the road at RF
Yoshida – near last in the division
Vazquez – should be back but won’t be. Huge Bloom mistake
Casas – Worst in the division
Pipe dream – Ohtani. Pipe dream – Conforto, Senga, Vazquez and Swanson.
Bogaerts is better than Swanson.
They had Vazquez last season.
They were a last place team with those two on the team. Adding a lower quality SS won’t change that equation. Vazquez has ruled out a return.
Yoshida is a DH, not a LF. He makes Schwarber look like Betts. Do you really think he will be better than JD Martinez as a DH?
Casas? We have been hearing Casas is coming! Casas is coming! for 3 years. Then he got to AA and hit .280 with mediocre power and a year later got to AAA and hit .270 with mediocre power. When he finally got to Boston he fell on his face. He is very young, so he can still rebound, but he hasn’t shown anything against top level pitching. Are you handing 1B to him already? Are you sure he is an upgrade over the last can’t miss Red Sox 1B prospect, Bobby Dalbec? I am not.
I think Swanson has more upside, where Bogarts doesn’t.
It would make more sense to sign Swanson, at this point. I am not in favor of signing if he has a pick attached
Conforto on a one year deal, which is what he wants to reestablish himself, in fenway would be a homerun.
I feel that Bloom is too hesitant when he is negotiating, and ends up losing out. NO REASON we didn’t sign Senga, for what he agreed too. They shouldn’t have any behind the scene deals with the money then gave Yoshida.
I am not sold on Casas at this point, but gave him his shot and see what he can do. If he falls flat like Dalbac did, you have Hosmer to finish up the season. Then you move him. he doesn’t have a high value now, so he can only gain some for next offseason to trade
I agree with the comment, “Red Sox won’t get into a bidding war for Ohtani” I don’t think Bloom knows how. It appears Blooms thinking is still as if he was in Tampa Bay.
We actually have about 40k million room in payroll for this year.
What is Bloom waiting for?? not many top pitchers, hitters.
Why can’t he pull the trigger on a trade??? he only likes making small deals, as it appears from what he has done
rich – Swanson is a career .738 OPS hitter who had a horrendous .702 OPS the second half of this season. He’s worth $40M over 3 years, tops.
I don’t see the Red Sox in a bidding war for Ohtani and i imagine it will take several millions tacked on to convince Shohei to go east
As an angry Sox fan, I do like your logic here. They also have a recent history in the Japanese market, starting with Dice-K. It will be interesting to see if and how that would play out.
Recent history my ass they haven’t signed Japanese talent since Koji 2012
well wrong on your first prediction {Senga} who just signed with the Mets for 15 million/yr. Guess that price was too high for the Sox. Not a chance in he$$ th the Sox would ever buck up the kind of $$ it would take to extend Ohtani. Face facts–the Sox are the new Tampa North.
Dumb theory it’s not 2003 anymore
That pitcher just signed with the Mets – five-year, $75MM deal for Kodai Senga. Meanwhile the Sox just made a deal of five-years, $90MM to a guy who will probably hit .260 with 15 homers, and who reportedly “doesn’t offer much defensive value”. So, in other words Bloom just overpaid (the opinion of other GMs around baseball, not mine) for a corner outfielder and was not in the running for a solid starting pitcher. It would be interesting to know what the Red Sox offer for Senga was.
Also, the Bloom quotes in the MassLive article show the Red Sox had a price level in mind for Bogaerts and did not exceed it. It was apparently an organizational decision that they stuck to.
Yes, they said 6/160. A joke.
6/160 is a joke lol? 26.6 mill a year for a 30 year old who’s only had an ops above .900 once and over his career is one of the worst shortstops defensively with horrifying range? No 11/280 just like mookies is a joke. Those contracts will age horrifically.
suit – It was a Bloom decision that Henry supported. Nobody else in the organization can overrule Bloom. Seems like you are trying very hard to defend Bloom for actions that are indefensible.
Another casual. John Henry has won 4 rings and is top 5 in payroll every year. U seriously think bloom just walks in and does whatever the F he wants with no chain of command or consequence? Lol really? U don’t think decisions like parting with mookie or let X walk, henry has a say in? “Hey I saw Xandar signed with SD what happened?” “Oh lol f that guy we’ll be fine.” You’re braindead if u think that’s how billion dollar businesses are run.
Fever: I think it’s fair to say we don’t know the finer details about how the Red Sox make decisions. John Henry could set limits. Bloom may make recommendations that John Henry approves. However the decision was made, I agree with it. I see you do not.
suit – We both agree the Sox shouldn’t have given Xander what the Padres did.
Where we differ is that you support offering Xander just $90M even though it was considerably below market value. May I ask why?
Fever, it’s giving too much credit to say offering 90m.
Bogey had 3yrs/60m left PLUS w 4th year vesting 20m option. All he had to do was make 500odd PA in ’25 to vest. Easily attainable on his history.
All Bloom did was offer to lock that option early and add 10m. JUST 10M.
That’s where the insult went to a new stratosphere after what an injury prone coors field inflated story got
Fever: I am not sure if the Red Sox offered XB a $90M deal. Who said this? Not who reported it. Who said it? The Red Sox or XB? I saw Jon Heyman tweet yesterday that the Red Sox offered XB a $120M deal this spring. I’m not saying I believe Jon Heyman. I am hesitant to believe what baseball reporters claim unless they name their source and give a direct quote.
I would have offered XB a 3 year/$105M contract with a club option for a 4th year. After that, put one of the prospects at shortstop. So, if there really was a $90M offer, I disagree with it, but I haven’t seen a basis to believe there was a $90M offer. If someone shows me a good reason to believe there was a $90M offer, I am still not going to worry about it because I don’t think I’m smarter than the Red Sox baseball ops department. Hope I did a good job explaining how I look at it.
Fever: I should add that I don’t get down about losing a player. I do get down when the Red Sox have a player like Chris Sale on a bad contract for years. I would rather lose the player and take the chance of being able to replace him as opposed to having a bad contract where you can’t replace him for years and spending power is held hostage. I think the Red Sox should be able to get a good replacement before the bad contract would be over.
wow in 11 years?? i can hardly wait
andolina – That’s exactly what I said, Henry has to support ie approve the big decisions that Bloom makes. If Henry is strongly against a decision that Bloom makes, such as lowballing a franchise icon, then Henry will not allow the Boy Blunder to go through with it.
This Xander debacle is on Henry too, without question.
suit – It’s been heavily reported, here and elsewhere, the Sox offered $90M. If that report was incorrect, for certain Bloom or some other Sox front office guy would have refuted the report … just as Bloom refuted Pete Abe’s BS report of “momentum” in recent negotiations between the Sox and Xander.
Quite honestly, if you’re not willing to believe anything until it’s an official MLB transaction, then I don’t really understand why you read this site. .
As for intelligence, no team’s baseball ops department makes the correct decision all the time. I can give plenty of examples where Red Sox management has made huge blunders, and admitted it later. Everything from mailing Fisk’s and Burleson’s contracts late, to lowballing Lester, to letting Boggs go to the Yankees, to holding onto prospects too long like Swihart. Way too many for me to list here.
Yes you did a great job of explaining, I appreciate it and I appreciate you always being a gentlemen even when we disagree. Despite the disagreements you’re one of my favorite posters here.
suit – I was down about Xander back when they acquired Story and gave Xander the lowball offer, but I trusted there would be other moves to make up for it. I’ve known for more than a year Xander was gone, most Sox fans also knew. What I am down about is the bigger picture, where the team is at right now and the direction they are heading in. Quite honestly I want John Henry to sell ASAP, I want an owner who is focused on one professional sports franchise and has the same hunger to win that Henry and Lucchino did back in the early 2000’s.
I’m keeping my promise to wait and see what else happens this offseason, but when perfect fits like Senga go off the board it’s tough to remain optimistic.
Fever: It’s hard to know what to believe from reporters these days. There is so much anti-Bloom sentiment, some of them may want to make him look as bad as possible. Thanks for the kind words. It is always good to talk with you too. I realize you may be right that not signing Xander for 3-6 years may be a mistake. We need to see how Xander performs in the coming years.
Bloom was brought in from the low payroll Rays to TANK for a few years and stock the farm with cheaper prospects to take over for the free agents that John Henry and the Red Sox allowed to walk.
Make no mistake: Henry did not make a competitive offer for Mookie Betts or Xander Boegarts.
Marcelo Mayer is Boegarts replacement in a year or two.
Others are being drafted to replace Mookie and Devers.
Look at the Red Sox record over every year over the last 12 years.
It shows: compete, win and then TANK.
Compete, win and then TANK.
Same formula repeated over and over in Boston.
almost like the Marlins. I liked the late 90s early 2000 yankees/redsox rivalries. now it means nothing when Boston comes to the Bronx or Yanks goto Boston. I see Machado opting out and Devers going to SD next year. I really don’t like seeing the shift of powerhouse teams going west. I do agree with some others that the direction of the Redsox is murky
No Samuel, even fans of teams with a core of really good young players, like the Seattle Mariners, want Shohei Ohtani. Jerry Dipoto not spending any free agency dollars may be a sign of things to come: Saving up to splurge on our guy…it’s written in the stars; it’s destiny, an inevitability?
The funnest fact was it came down to the Angels and the Mariners with Ohtani, it was so close that Dipoto made a terrible trade to take Dee Gordon to get international money in the case Ohtani accepted the Mariners. He chose the Angels but in free agency he might give his second choice a try and play on a young up and coming team.
ignorant – I’m so glad I muted Samuel long ago, I even forgot he existed. I do think you’re right about Seattle, they will target Ohtani and unlike Bloom they will put their money where there mouth is.
LOL yeah I haven’t muted Samuel because his Captain Obvious takes and histrionic ‘teachable moment’ style lectures are always a source of amusement to me (I guess it doesn’t take much). I do think it’s unfair we can’t respond to his ‘nuggets of wisdom’, and when we can he doesn’t see them. In what universe does muting somebody essentially mean you’re immune from criticism?? That crafty cantankerous Samuel sure knows how to manipulate the system LOL.
U mean unlike Henry? Bloom doesn’t write checks.
Ignorant – He’s only hurting himself by muting so many. He doesn’t realize not only can he not see the comments of those he has muted, he also can’t see any of the comments from others who replay to/under the muted person.
Right Fever, and living in a world where you receive no constructive criticism; feedback, or pushback of any kind may seem idyllic at first glance but in the real world is a recipe for disaster. Basically that’s how you get somebody like Donald Trump lol. Samuel may be just a keyboard tyrant, but if he employs similar tactics in other areas of his life then I feel sorry for his family and co-workers.
I’m blocked by Samuel and proud of it.
Everyone who is should be. It means you made him feel inferror and presented arguments backed by facts he couldn’t refute, and, he couldn’t handle it
Other SS in that WAR range have been getting 33+ million. Xander got just 25.5 million per year because the Padres did the very CBT cheating that was detailed in last night’s “Latest On Padres’ Pursuit Of Aaron Judge” article
Maybe the Red Sox didn’t want to go more cash? Maybe they didn’t want to go more for as many seasons as he’d like? Don’t know which for sure. But their known offer of 160 over 6 is downright disrespectful considering the market
darkstar61;
Screw the market.
A player is worth what he’s worth to a team.
The Braves and Astros understand that and keep winning. Time for Red Sox fans need to start understanding it.
darkstar: SD’s contract had a lower AAV than the Red Sox offer. So, it was the number of years that was the sticking point. The Red Sox did not want XB on the team during his age 36-40 years. I don’t want him on the team then either.
Yes, the contract he signed with the Padres is manipulated to be only 25.5 annually on the CBT commitment. To get that artificially low CBT penalty they added extra years onto the back end of the deal that wouldn’t have been there otherwise
If you think he was going to take 25.5 per over 5 or 6 years, I have a bridge to sell you. He expected, and knew the market valued him at, roughly 30-35 million, likely over an 8-10 year deal
The Padres gave him a manipulated version of his asking price, the Red Sox were not even remotely in that ballpark or he probably would have taken it (his comment about the Padres honesty shows a lot here)
darkstar: I’m aware that the contract could be viewed that way. The bottom line is that the Red Sox did not want to go there. I am fine with that decision. I would rather go with a younger shortstop and invest XB’s $30-35M elsewhere.
They could have been expecting a counter demand when the Padres blew them.out of the water. The market is nuts this year.
darkstar – Xander since 2018 has been a far better hitter than Correa, Lindor, Seager, Baez, Semien and Story and this year he had a GG-caliber season. Based on the contracts of those others, of course Xander’s market value was at least $33M.
The $160M offer was a farce for the ignorant fans, so that Bloom can say he tried to keep Xander. No different than the $90M lowball offer that will live in infamy just as the lowball offer to Lester did.
As Kanye would say, John Henry doesn’t care about retaining his best players.
No, the market is an absolute monstrosity that is killing the game of baseball just like the CFO market killed the world economy. 6/160 for a 30 year old shortstop who had 1 season above .900 ops in the year of the juiced ball and has always been one of the poorest rated shortstops defensively is fair market value. His power numbers fell off a cliff and in 4 years that contract will be an albatross just like pujols.
100% accurate. In 6 years the league will be facing a huge crisis. All these 8,9,10,11 contracts will start bringing organizations into reality that will ultimately hurt the game & the fans will suffer. Every professional league has a cap on length of contracts & a salary cap. Baseball refuses to do work together to give every city that has a team an equal opportunity to compete for a championship. My Tigers went all in & got to two World Series but then the aftermath of 2016 has placed them in purgatory the last 7 years & it could be another 5 years. 11 years for Xander Bogaerts is a 100 million over his worth & 6 years over the years he will produce. This is a nightmare & will get worse!
Could not agree more David. It’s called greed. The league, owners, agents and players are like kids in a candy store. They are taking every piece they can get, until they get caught. There will be a D-Day for the MLB.
Not if your a fan of a team that doesn’t give out that type of contract.
@davidkaner
Not to be confrontational, but whose fault is the Tigers predicament but their own? Going “all in” is the dumbest approach in baseball, with few successes and a multitude of failures. And what did the Tigers do when they figured they were on the verge again after 2021? Why, they signed Eduardo Rodriguez and Javier Baez to absurd contracts and watched the shrewd low budget Cleveland team blow right past them. The Tigers insist on digging their own grave.
It’s why I ‘m rooting for the Twins to prevail in the Carlos Correa “Who Wants To Be Dumbest” sweepstakes.
david – Sorry but no sale. The Tigers are bad because of the GM who followed Dombrowski. Hmmmm…. sounds familiar. Bad choices by the guy after Dombrowski seems to bleed over to Dombrowski by haters not by facts.
Detroit gave up Castellanos, JD and others. They are bad due to the decisions of the ownership and GM after Dombrowski.
Bogaerts contract is not a significant factor in the finances of a billionaire especially in 10 years when the current value of that money is cut in half or more.
There is no nightmare there is an awakening going on. More owners with deep pockets making obscene profits are realizing how inconsequential mistakes are especially if they happen five to 10 years down the road.
Boston ownership has chosen to divert it’s resources to non American baseball enterprises and they left a blithering idiot in charge of keeping the house from burning down. Unfortunately, the inept Bloom has let it burn down and it’s going to take years to rebuild it once he’s gone.
The sad part about all this is ownership is so distracted that they renewed the bumbling fool for another year. That ownership mistake extended the sentence for Red Sox Nation.
I’m still not sure the owners even know what is being said on the MLB channel because the public bashing of the ball club is historic right now and they don’t seem to be aware or maybe they simply don’t care!!
Sad days in Boston.
OMG stfu. Another casual blaming bloom. Bloom has a chain of command and you’re an idiot if you think contracts like 11/280 will be fine a few years down the road especially for a 30 year old ss who’s only had one season with an ops above .900 and has always been one of the worst defensive rated as in baseball. Who decided to hand price a ridiculous contract? Who decided to hand Chris sake a ridiculous extension when everyone saw sale was going to need tj and was still under contract so u could see heading into 19 how his arm was? Who decided not to deal Betts at the 19 deadline when it was clear the team wasn’t going to the playoffs and mookie had every intention on testing free agency? Lol who signed prince fielder? Who let max scherzer walk in free agency and what’s turned out to be the only long 200+ mill contract that’s been worth every penny? Oh that’s right Dave Dombrowski. A 9 year deal to prince fielder. A 7 year deal to David price. A ridiculous extension to Chris sale. Lol NINE YEARS to prince letting one of the best pitchers ever walk out the door. Then you’re blaming OTHER GMs? They take over teams with bloated contracts, aging stars and NO FARM SYSTEM because Dave trades every prospect for a star. Phillies will be screwed too a few years from now. Anyone can throw money and trade prospects. FOH
Andolina- you’re drinking the kool-aid.
Aside from the trade to bring Sale to Boston to begin with, when he was on a team friendly undervalue contract with multiple years control…
Do tell, of anyone DD traded with Boston, who amounted to much of anything in MLB?
We will wait. Give their OPS+, their FIP/ERA+ numbers. The answer is, nobody. He received surplus value in every trade, even if you DO include sale.
A bunch of these minor league players coming up lately…. they were on the farm with DD. They just hadn’t progressed enough to see what they would be.
Also, look at the list of players who graduated out of the minors during DDs watch. When a player moved from milb to mlb, it does lessen the farm ranking. But I think you’ll also find DD graduated as much or more minor league talent that gave more WAR than many other teams.
Andro – A Bloom apologist and Dombrowski hater. Your response is typical. No facts just a bunch of mistaken information about the achievements of a great GM.
Lets overlay your comments with actual facts.
Chain of command crap. Learn the actual process. Bloom presents to ownership and they either sign off or not. If the GM doesn’t present good ideas, good ideas can’t happen. Huge Bloom shortcoming.
Rantings about Bogaerts contract not being fine in a few years.
FACT – He’s a top 3 OPS+ SS for the last 5 years. He’s not falling off in production. Reversing his historical trend because you don’t think it will happen? hahaha Just immature banter..
Price contract wasn’t stupid when it was handed out. The numbers supported it completely. Nobody and I mean nobody could have foreseen the negative impact of replacing Farrell with Cora as far as the pitchers go. Ownership wanted the diversity at all costs and the cost was huge.
The Mookie comment shows you really don’t follow the Red Sox. Dombrowski wanted to sign Mookie for big bucks that’s why he wasn’t traded at the 2019 deadline. Ownership fired Dombrowski for wanting to keep Betts. They brought in a spineless rookie so they could dump Mookie since he challenged them on racial issues.
Prince Fielder had a 151 OPS+ in his first year of the 9 year contract. In year two it was 122 so while playing in DET for Dombrowski Fielder had a 2 year average OPS+ of 136!!! That’s huge. They traded him the next year so Detroit didn’t eat anything on that deal. Do you understand anything about contracts? You ran off your mouth like you were an expert and you are far from it.
Bloated contracts… Your opinion not fact. Big contracts aren’t the same as bloated contracts. Use the right adjectives and nobody will dress you down for saying incorrect things..
Aging stars? Tell me which stars are getting younger? No farm system? Boston has a great farm system due to Dombrowski trading off the over rated players for parts that brought them 3 division titles and a ring. Again, no facts in your comments.
Regroup and try to come back with some actual facts next time you want to debate a topic. You just embarrassed yourself.
Stop drinking the Red Sox team CYA press Koolaid.
The Red Sox have driven away 4 very highly rated Front Office Executives:
Theo Epstein, Dave Dombrowski, Ben Cherrington (Pirates) and Mike Hazen (Diamondbacks).
Dombrowski left teams in great shape:
Montreal: 3-4 years after Dombrowski left the Expos for the expansion Marlins, the Expos had the best record in baseball and were World Series contenders when the baseball strike killed the season.
Miami Dombrowski left for Detroit in 2002. Marlins won 2nd World Series in 2003 with Dombrowski’s players.
Detroit: Dombrowski started a retooling/Rebuild with trades of Price and Cespedes that brought in Boyd, Norris, Fulmer etc…Owner Mike Illitch would not admit Detroit needed to get younger, more athletic and Illitch, foolishly, Illich DID NOT RENEW DOMBROWSKI’S CONTRACT. HE WAS NOT FIRED. Illitch died after hiring Al Avila to replace Dombrowski.
Phillies: Dombrowski did a creative job of taking what the last front office gave him and building on it….getting rid of parts that did not fit…adding, subtracting and retooling the entire Front Office including Field Manager.
The Results in Philadelphia speak for louder than words.
SOUR GRAPES FROM DISGRUNTLED RED SOX FANS.
Who would you rather have building/running your team?!
Dombrowski?!
Bloom!?
A fan vote would most likely give Dombrowski more than 80% and Bloom less than 20%.
This is on the stupidity of Red Sox Ownership.
Sam Kennedy convinced them that Dombrowski was too old
and could not build a winning team.
Sam Kennedy’s agenda was to bring in a younger executive that he could micro manage.
Dombrowski IS NOT THAT GUY!
David Kaner the stand up comedian everyone. Let’s give him a hand for that outstanding joke.
MLB has skyrocketing revenue that shows no sign of slowing its growth. No team is going to be hurt by signing a guy that gives them surplus value in the 1st half of their contract, especially if they are consistently making the playoffs.
Bogaerts worth is $280 million over 11 years. Do you know how I know that? Someone paid that. What they pay determines the players worth.
If Bogaerts’ performance steadily declines over the next three years no one will think he is worth $280M, regardless of what he is being paid.
Utah – Seems like you’re not familiar with Xander.
Since 2018 he has an .880 OPS, 3 Silver Slugger awards, MVP votes every single year, and was a Gold Glove runner-up this year.
It’s highly unlikely his performance will decline over the next three years.
utah – Nobody should ever look at a contract total and make comments. The AAV is what the team is spending versus the cap. $25MM is not much for a top 3 SS (based on the numbers). In 3 years if he slips to 7th best SS he’s still worth $25 in 2025 dollars. Yes, the time value of money makes that same $25MM in 3 years 22% less than it is in 2022.
Think of it this way. Bogaerts is averaging over 130 for his OPS+ and that puts him in a $30MM a year range but he’s only receiving $25MM in 2023. The following year the time value of money reduces the buying power of that $25MM by 7% so if Bogaerts OPS+ drops by 7% in 2024 his value to cost ratio remains the same. In year ONE his value is $30MM and his Cost is $25MM so SD stockpiles $5MM of value.
Now go through the 11 years degrading the buying power of Bogaerts salary by 7% annually and see if his OPS+ is dropping as fast. If it’s not then he’s banking even more than $5MM in value for the Padres. At some point, his OPS+ may drop more than 7% and then he will be reducing the banked amount of value he has built up during the contract.
That’s why your comments about the certainty of this contract being bad are so unfounded. Nobody knows the future and if Bogaerts current five year trend continues he could be as much as $25MM over the cost of the contract in accumulated value after 5 years. With each year costing 7% less the odds of the contract being a disaster or even bad are low if Bogaerts maintains a decent OPS+ for the next five years, like the last five years.
Math explains how to evaluate long term contracts. The key is having a performance mark to define a salary level to begin with and then applying the time value of money principles to determine the net value of the entire contract. Simple math.
Bogaerts performance will decline over the next 3 years just based on the facts that 81 home games will be at Petco versus Fenway.
Next two year Average for Bogey:
.285 AVG
17 HR’s ….. 78 RBI’s
More decline in defensive metrics based on shift rules.
Davidkaner – did you look at what the ZIPS projections had to say about xander over the life of that contract? They peg him to be above 260m of that deal in production value, accounting for the decline
Back to back last place finishes the Red Sox are headed after ending up there in 2023 and losing the face of your franchise is always such a smart decision. Really increases your fan interest and team revenue.
suit – As myself and countless others (including Mark in the above article) already pointed out, the right thing to do if you’re not willing to break the bank is to give Xander the contract he deserved two years ago … and give it to him two years ago. There’s an excellent chance even just 14 months ago that he would have taken the $160M Bloom offered him this week.
I’m not gonna beat around the bush, Pete Abe is an attention seeking hack that people tend to avoid and Bloom is a liar. He can say whatever the hell he damn well pleases, but actions ALWAYS speak louder than words.
Offering your homegrown franchise player $50M less than you just gave a declining and injured free agent, that right there is Bloom speaking loud and clear. He didn’t want Xander at anywhere near market value back then, and John Henry supported Bloom’s decision.
But I’ll do what I said I would do and wait until the season opener before passing judgement on Bloom’s offseason. Hopefully he will surprise us with some good moves, because right now the Sox are a last place team … again.
Fever: We agree about Pete Abe. I never got too attached to Xander. When he switched his agent to Boras, I thought he really only cares about getting top dollar for himself. I don’t think Boras would let Xander settle for less than a $200M deal without testing free agency. This is going to be Xander’s last big contract. It would be crazy not to see what other teams would offer in free agency. I’m speculating of course. I think that’s all we can really do.
Suit: I do wonder if part of the issue is in what Bloom has said too. As an outside observer, he’s made several statements that don’t seem at all consistent with his actions. For example, with. Xander, he said repeatedly that he was their “top priority.” Now, for a team like the Red Sox that means something. It’s not quite the same typically as the Rays or whatever.
Nonetheless, juxtapose that with their biggest rivals, the Yanks, who said Judge was their biggest priority. The efforts to retain each {appeared} to be on opposite ends of the spectrum. I think that’s, in part, what the fan base is reacting to, even those who never expected Henry to meet the SD contract.
Again, I’m an outside guy from a rival team, but that’s how it appears. Perhaps Bloom is bit more used to speaking about team priorities more casually in the small market, but we in the larger markets take that stuff like gospel, brother.
Clipper: Valid point. The communication may be inaccurate and is probably at least a stretched truth. I think the truth can be stretched and it has many forms when people like Bloom talk to reporters, when reporters write articles and when posters post. I’m a big believer in that what appears to be going on is rarely what is really going on. Admittedly, I am defending Bloom so far. I still think taking a guy from the Rays and giving him a much larger budget can have awesome results. I’m hoping he has a plan and is allowed to follow it. I’m guessing the plan is to rebuild the farm system while avoiding albatross contracts and then go all in on winning. Hopefully time shows this to be true. It does look like the Red Sox are not admitting this which leads to inaccurate communications and people getting mad.
Suit: I’m on the opposite side of that Rays FO feeling. It seems to me that they tend to try to Moneyball the roster and it’s ineffectual. But, I keep an open mind because I know I could be wrong. It’s why I enjoy discussing the opposing viewpoints in this forum.
One thing about you though – I thoroughly enjoy your posts, information, and discussions, Suit. It’s enjoyable to read such a level-headed perspective regardless of the issue at hand. I appreciate having you on these boards, man. Your contributions are great and you’re always very pragmatic and sensible. I have a ton of respect for you and hold your opinion in high esteem.
Clipper: You may be right. The Rays have never won a championship. You are one of the best posters here and are very fair-minded. I always stop scrolling to read your posts. It still blows my mind how you laid out how the Yankees could be paying the same for guys they didn’t sign (Harper, Realmuto. etc.) as for the guys they did sign.
suit – Umm ….. Boras was Xander’s agent when he signed the team-friendly extension with Dombrowski. That was only 3 years ago.
You can defend Bloom all you want, but trying to portray Xander as greedy is a path you don’t want to go down.
telegram.com/story/sports/2019/04/02/red-sox-xande…
Clip – You probably already know this, but Judge came back to the Yanks because Hal personally called him and asked him if he wants to stay with the Yanks and what it would take. When Judge said a 9th year, the deal was done. THAT is what happens when a team truly wants to keep a player.
Players aren’t stupid, they can tell when they are wanted. Theo flying down to Arizona for Thanksgiving was proof he wanted Schilling, and that was a big factor in him getting Schilling. No sort of effort was made with Xander, there were no flights to speak with him in person. He knew he wasn’t wanted, just like all of Red Sox Nation knew.
Yeah, as you said in another comment, actions speak a lot louder than words do. I think that was probably salt in the wound especially after Bloom said Xander was their top priority this offseason.
It just seems like a bad deal all around. I don’t know what the issue is, man. Seems like the fanbase there is very divided, but that’s a big indicator too. Something is very wrong to say the least. Whether it’s in their message, the plan, the goals, the communication to the players, media blasts, or whatever. Something isn’t working right now it seems, at least from an outsider’s perspective.
Clip – This year was the lowest attendance at Fenway since 2000, not including the 2020-2021 Covid years.
I’m reading Red Sox forums where diehard fans are talking about how they have lost interest in the team.
It always starts at the top, man. John Henry has lost his soul.
What’s so ironic is MLB does so much to try and draw interest to the sport because they say it’s not as interesting to the younger viewership. Meanwhile the guys who run MLB (owners) running baseball teams like this are only compounding the problem.
I stopped watching NFL probably….. 10 years ago or so for a few different reasons. But, thing is, once I got used to not having it, I never went back. Couldn’t. Wasn’t the same passion. Same thing will happen with baseball. It’s sad but they’re dooming themselves.
Clip – I totally agree, once you lose fans it’s tough to bring them back. They move on with other things in their lives.
I used to be a huge NHL fan, once my team moved that was it for me … I lost touch with the sport and haven’t watched it since.
Fever: Great article. Xander obviously wasn’t greedy then. I’m not sure holding out for top dollar means you are greedy. If you hold out for top dollar when selling your house, are you greedy?
Blah,blah,blah, they’ll see Devers leave too
Devers to SD for Kim ss and Rosario 3b. Pads sign Senga and Drury call it a day. Devers plays first.
i’m not a soxs fan especially since they beat my birds twice in the ws, but as an outsider this just sounds like lip service from bloom/ownership. like i said i’m no soxs fan but it seems like bloom is a puppet for ownership, if the henry’s wanted to win dd would still be your gm/pbo.
Absolutely unquestionable truth: people will hear whatever they want to hear wit quotes like these. Bloom could be 100% honest and accurate with his comments; he could be full of baloney; he could be a mix in between. And the comments could/would still sound the same, and no matter what the exact comments various folks would interpret them in their various ways.
Wanting to win and DD have nothing to do with this. DD was given an MLB roster and minor league system with the talent to win that needed that talent converted into an actual winner; he completely accomplished his mission. But he is not a system builder long term, and for Boston to not go through cycles it would need to transition to someone who can build systems. So it hired a guy it hopes can do that, and the transition takes time…we’re only just starting the window of the organization reflecting a Bloom process, so it will be a few years yet before we get a read on whether his process works or not.
So few understand this. The organization is taking a different approach than the prior regime but one that I think will pay off in spades. Chaim has said he envisions the Sox being like the Dodgers, homegrown talent with big signings to plug into positions when needed. Being the farm was one of the worst when DD left, it’s going to take time to rebuild that base. I just hope ownership is onboard for the lengthy rebuild and backlash that has already come with it.
My only question is: if this is in fact a different approach and Bloom is trying to rebuild the farm first, then sign the stars, why is he waiting so long and accepting so little for people he should be trading sooner to do exactly that? And why bother signing Story for $160MM at all? It’s completely counterintuitive to that plan, imo.
Yes, it’s true but DD has gotten every team he’s run to the WS. If he was still running the team, they’d be over the taxes and wouldn’t have the minor league talent they seem to have but would there have been another championship? Who knows? Bloom has at least two years but has to produce a ring to be considered with Theo, DD and even Sherrington.
Clipper: I’m thinking the only thing that explains the counterintuitive moves is the Red Sox trying to manage fan perception. Story was a “big signing”. Then the Red Sox don’t trade XB to make it look like they really want to sign him.
No way Red Sox fans will sit for a rebuild from one of the richest clubs in professional sports. Not happening. Especially when that team to the south is kicking their asses.
I would say he’s been tasked with rebuilding but maintaining the image of winning which it think is why the story signing fits the narrative. Ideally every team would operate like the say the cardinals have the last 2 decades, using all 3 facets of team building to compete but the position the Red Sox have now put themselves in is they lost the biggest advantage they had, they can afford for one of those things not to work out.
They don’t have a established foundation to build upon now, so they need the farm system to produce, they need win trades and they need signings to pan out. Good luck.
I think the real truth is a little more complex than what most fans want to admit, we don’t actual know what Chaim is responsible for aside from a number of trades that haven’t panned out.
Exactly this guyona and RedSox571.
I don’t know how fans (casuals?) don’t understand the Red Sox approach, and honestly thought they are smarter than this.
But unfortunately, they are not.
Dewey –
Dombrowski had a plan and it was working until Cora botched Spring Training and the team had key injuries. One off year in four is an outstanding record not a firing offense. If DD stayed Boston would have been under the CAP in 2020 thanks to the $32MM of Price falling off the books when he opted out. All the previous over spending rolled off the books within a year to Bloom’s benefit. DD would have gotten stars for the money not slugs like Bloom. That’s an extrapolation of history not just an opinion.
There is no more minor league talent in the minors now than during DD or Cherington or any other GM. The players are pure “futures” not legitimate MLB starters. Right now DD’s guys are leading the way for Boston not Bloom’s slugs (Houck, Casas etc). Bloom tanked year one and got Mayer. Not something the fans should be proud of or an accomplishment for Bloom. He should be embarrassed that his team 40% of their games in 2020. That is the single biggest reason the farm rating has improved under Bloom.
DD had 3 division titles and a RING by now. He was 104 games over .500 during his tenure. Bloom is 4 games over .500. Your math of 2 years seems a bit aggressive. He needs 50 games over .500 for 2 years to catch up to DD. That’s 131 wins in back to back seasons. Clearly, your statement is a huge exaggeration. Bloom will NEVER be in a category with Theo, DD or Cherington.. EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YC, and why is he signing big dollar players like Yoshida?
smith – You are 100% correct. They’ve already been “rebuilding” the past three seasons, including two last place finishes. Fans will not continue to pay outrageous prices for games at Fenway if there’s little talent. Not that long ago fans would pay just to see Ortiz, Ramirez and Pedro. Now who would fans pay to see? Story? Verdugo? Not a chance.
DPS, Do you mean the Rays or the Orioles?
web – GREAT QUESTION!!
Makes absolutely no sense. If it’s a cultural play for Ohtani someone should have consulted Ohtani to find out if he wants to join a team with players from Asia. I thought I read that the Angels were his choice due to Trout. Boston has nothing close to Trout so maybe Bloom should find out from Ohtani who he would like to play with instead of guessing. If one guy could bring Ohtani to Boston I suggest Bloom trade for that guy immediately.
But in the end, Yoshida isn’t the answer whether it’s for Ohtani or not. People in Bloom’s camp are throwing out comparisons with Nimmo but Nimmo can field. That’s like comparing Arenado and Devers. It simply doesn’t apply.
Yoshida has one value to the Red Sox, a high OBP guy to lead off for Devers since they aren’t smart enough to move Devers to the four hole where he formerly belonged when they had good 1,2 and 3 hitters. Without Bogaerts and JD, Story is the only legitimate top 4 hitter other than Devers. Thus, Yoshida has a place in the batting order, just not in the field, much like Devers.
Great question.
buffalo – I have a very, very simple question: What is preventing Bloom from doing both? Why can’t he spend on the current team while simultaneously beefing up the farm system?
Your stance goes down the toilet when you consider the fact that Bloom did NOT trade Xander, JD or Nate for prospects this year AND because he foolishly went just slightly over the tax threshold he devalued his draft picks.
Also if you had read the great article by Alex Speier, you’d know the prospects Bloom has acquired have not panned out.
People who defend Bloom by hyping the farm system are just trying to buy more time, it’s plain as day.
suit – The Story signing was done for two reasons:
1) Bloom wanted to improve the infield defense, which was a valid goal
2) Bloom wanted to save $7M per season, because he knew Xander was a $30M a year player
Fan perception may have been a factor, but every Sox fan I know viewed the Story signing as a sign that Xander was on his way out the door. They were never going to give both Xander and Story large contracts with Yorke and Mayer on the way.
Red Sox fans have been through a few rebuilds/retools already.
Every time they win a championship, then the team tanks for a few years to reload the farm.
Look up their Won Loss records for the past 12-13 years.
“But he (Dombrowski) is not a system builder long term,”
redsoxu571;
He did just that in Montreal, Miami, and Detroit.
He was the best person in MLB to reconstruct the Red Sox
when he was fired.
Stop with the stereotypical narratives.
@rs5 i disagree with dd he kept det. as a constant winner for years until the owner fell i’ll and wanted a ring. yes dd never won a ring in det, but he kept them in it and if wasn’t for a hot cards team in 06 (and as a cards fan i didn’t think we would win but my homerism said we would) and a hot sf team det. would have 2 rings. dd did what ownership asked of him build a winner by any means and he did and he was rewarded by getting a pink slip because ownership got what they want and thought they could be cheap and the bos faithful would still come.
Agreed. While the team spent, they put limits in place and reinvested that money in soccer, a minor league stadium that should still be in RI and other areas.
redsoxu571 – Revisionist history. All the blubber about people interpreting comments as they see fit and you write a COMPLETELY inaccurate assessment of Red Sox history? Seriously?
Dombrowski arrived with Papi leaving no Price, no Sale, no JD and a team getting ready to fall off a cliff without Papi. He turned it around quickly by INVESTING in talent like Price, Sale and JD. He had a horrible fielding 3B who was being over-hyped in the minors and he had a couple of gems in Mookie and Bogaerts.
Unlike Bloom he didn’t choose to get rid of his best two players he surrounded them with lots of talent and they won 3 division titles for the first time ever and a World Series. Dombrowski actually had a detailed plan unlike Bloom. Do you not follow the Red Sox at all? He set his entire payroll spending to compete from 2017 to 2022 with a core group of players. That’s why the contracts lined up. He was giving himself 5 years to win multiple Rings and the plan was outstanding and working until 2019 when Cora botched Spring Training and the team had lots of key injuries. That happens. It shouldn’t have sent the train off the rails but it did thanks to ownership..
The plan took a major hit when Pedroia got hurt but overall it was rock solid. He had two solid inexpensive catchers in Vazquez and Leon, he had an over-hyped 3B that couldn’t field but was deemed the future of the Red Sox at 16 in the Dominican Republic academy. He had a great SS, a great 2B in Pedroia and he had a gold glover inexpensive Moreland at 1B. He had Benny in Left, JBJ in CF and Mookie in right and JD at DH. He planned for that core to stick around until minor league players like Duran might replace JBJ or Dalbec/Casas might replace Moreland. The plan was awesome and well defined and communicated to the public.
He got Sale and Price to rejuvenate a weak pitching staff and they did until Cora messed with them. Under Farrell the pitching worked. Under Cora it’s a disaster but diversity called and Dombrowski was forced to hire Cora. Review the interviews with ownership in the fall of 2017, the proof is on video!
Dombrowski built a great team that was sustainable but he was being hammered about the prior mistakes and the excess costs he inherited not incurred. Thanks to COVID, Dombrowski could have reset the CAP when Price opted out but he was gone by then so Bloom lucked into a break Dombrowski deserved.
There was NEVER a need to transition from Dombrowski, that’s hate speak not fact. Dombrowski DID NOT exceed the cap in HIS spending. All would have worked according to his plan and my guess without Cora the pitching would have done much better and Boston would have at least one more ring by now.
The massive pivot in thinking by the owners appears to have been generated outside the lines. They have diversified their massive profits into more sports organization while the Red Sox have floundered under an unqualified GM and Manager. That’s on the ownership.
Bloom apologists always say it should take more time for his process. WOW what a load of …… There is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow there is poverty. Talent poverty, winning poverty and tons of profits for a group of owners who chose to diversify while hanging on to the golden goose. Even Bloom can’t kill the profits of a beloved organization like the Red Sox. Fans are too loyal. The prices of tickets, parking and food will continue to soar and the seats will fill much like Wrigley Field. Bloom bungling free agency and not maintaining home grown players won’t hurt the bottom line enough for ownership to care. They are still busy building their empire in other sports. Only the fans are bearing the cost of the pivot.
Spinning Bloom positively and Dombrowski negatively is the farthest thing from the truth. Ask Philly fans!!!
PulledaBloom;
Everything you wrote is true. I admire Dave Dombrowski.
Then why was he fired, when he was the one guy that could bring that club back again?
Could it be that the owner – who holds the purse strings – was moving in a different direction?
All you people clubbing Mr. Bloom over the head need to look at the owner. Why hasn’t he fired Mr. Bloom? He’s real good at firing GM’s and managers.
So if it wasn’t for that dammed “diversity hire” Alex Cora, who sabotaged a Spring Training (??) & doesn’t understand pitching, then things would be looking better right now?? Hmmm strange way to scapegoat Cora. All I hear is positive accolades thrown in his direction by his peers and baseball analysts.
Samuel – Outstanding post. The owners pivoted when they fired DD and unfortunately didn’t find a competent replacement. They gave Bloom more money than they gave Dombrowski and he moved us from first to last.
Extending Bloom is documentation of the fact that the focus of ownership is NOT on the Red Sox.
Ignorant – It’s common knowledge Cora’s handling of ST in 2019 and his approach in April and May put the team in a hole they couldn’t climb out of. Look at how much playing time his regulars had in ST, look at the quotes from Cora that winning isn’t important in the first half of the season, look at how his political views divided the clubhouse.
How many times has a 108-win World Champion team with nearly all it’s players returning performed so badly they didn’t even make the postseason.
Pulled – Not sure if you follow the Liverpool team, but John Henry was extremely hated by their fan base the past few years. Seems like he’s headed in the same direction with Red Sox Nation. He has lost his desire to win, you hardly see him anymore, he didn’t even bother to show up for the customary end of season press conference.
@fever – the one thing you omit after the slow 2019 start is that once the guys were up to speed their w/l put was one of the best in the league. Had the first 50 or 60 days been played at a similar quality they’d have won the division.
GASox – You are 100% correct.
And if the Sox had a better record at the break, Henry would have approved fortifying the team at the trade deadline.
I’ve been watching the Sox closely for nearly half a century, never have I seen a team so unprepared to start the season.
Ignorant – Sounds like his peers like him. He’s a very media friendly guy so I get why the press loves him. Does that change any of the facts related to his daily managerial mistakes?
Do you watch the games? The illogical line-ups, the excessive resting of star players and the daily mishandling of the bullpen?
Don’t believe me? No problem.. Go back and count the times and percentage of the times that his next pitcher failed when the “normal” choice was not chosen by Cora. The numbers are astounding. You have three years of data. He was just as bad in 2018 as he was in 2022.
Price would not have opted out. At the end of the day, you sox fans will be happy that you dodged this bullet. It wasn’t that long ago that the Pads were trading prospects with terrible contracts. Looks and feels great now, but it’s going to kill them in the long run.
And yet…. they brought back Cora…. huge mistake
Dombrowski gave JD Martinez his start at the MLB level in Detroit by taking a flyer on a young JDM who had been released by the Astros.
JDM would not have gone to Boston without the Dombrowski connection.
u571 – You really should have read up on Dombrowski’s background before making that silly comment about him “not being a system builder longterm”.
A few more years yet on Bloom? It’s already been more than three years, and you want to give him several more?
Both Cherington and Dombrowski departed within 4 years, as revenue continues to drop and people lose interest you can bet Henry won’t be that patient. First and foremost he is a businessman.
Fever – The biggest reason I think Bloom may be around a few more years is this, if not bloom then who?
There isn’t a DD type executive looking to move. The Red Sox are a shambles. There isn’t a quick fix, there’s no core to build off of. BLOOM BLEW IT UP AND DESTROYED IT.
Likewise, Henry still, STILL wants his moneyball type hard-on for Billy Beane satisfied. He pulled a TB exec from the 4th bench deep after the west coast promoted the best 2 and the 3rd best took the TB helm. The results show its a poor choice that wasn’t ready and rode the coattails of another, but, who do you take? Another TB exec? Doubtful. And nobody on the bench in the offices Henry envies has any one person ready. They all spread duties out so thoroughly among subordinates no one guy has the experience to go on their own with a top caliber club. Cherington is happy in PIT. Theo enjoys being one step away from ownership in his funding group. Those bridges burned anyways.
I think bloom gets to stay until profits crater, or, a better choice shows availability and interest. And neither is happening quite yet.
GA…I was thinking about Theo Epstein but perhaps someone like David Stearns or James Click?? I’m just spit ballin’ here, like you said, there isn’t any commanding looming figure.
GASox – Profits absolutely will crater next year. It’s hard enough justifying the sky high ticket prices etc especially with inflation the way it is, but people go to games to have a good time. How can they have a good time if their team is getting blown out night after night?
As for who could replace Bloom, I would love to have Click and I’d also bring back DD …. the original one.
None of those guys would work for the Red Sox again.
Add Theo to the list.
Red Sox are getting a bad reputation around MLB
for blowing out top Executives.
Add Mike Hazen (D backs) to that list.
Dombrowski is very much a ‘system builder”
as he has proven time and time again in Montreal, Miami and everyplace he has worked even Detroit.
Dombrowski shrewdly keeps and promotes his best assets like Verlander, Granderson and more and
trades his minor league assets at peak value for young rising stars
like Miguel Cabrera, Max Scherzer etc..
@brodie-bruce
Puppet is not a fair description. He works for ownership, and does what ownership directs him to, just like you do at your job. If you think any of them do differently, you are mistaken. Those that don’t become unemployed quickly.
@stymeedone i’ll meet you halfway on this one, you can still work for someone and do what your told and not be a puppet but it is a very fine line, but you can also still follow orders but give positive pushback. so maybe i was a little harsh saying bloom is a puppet but he is definitely a “yes man” and any organization sports or business when you fill your ranks with only “yes men” your doomed to fail because everyone around you is in fear of losing there job there not going to challenge you, and that’s when you start to fail.
Wait, so Chaim was not under the impression that Chaim made a late bid to re-sign Xander?
“that was definitely not what our impression was throughout the day and even the day before,”
Perhaps that’s sentence encapsulates why he’s failing.
“I don’t know, was I making an effort to sign Bogaerts? I can’t remember!” – Chaim Bloom
What was the question that preceded the comment? Perhaps that would provide some context for you. He is dismissing the “report” that they were making momentum toward a deal. But keep on hating.
This is the preceding part of the sentence, “Despite speculation that the Red Sox had made a late bid to re-sign the shortstop,…”
So, it’s saying that he’s unaware that he made a late bid despite speculation….
It’s not hating, btw. Chaim is inarguably doing a piss-poor job. Unless you think that point is debatable, then I’d love to hear your perspective on that. But offering Xander $90MM for his extension was……. Unimpressive.
Ownership’s love for Cora and Bloom remains as they both are yes men. Cora should never have been asked back after 20 yet everyone knew the day he was suspended, he’d be back. Bloom’s priorities have been on the farm and listening to ownership.
dewey – Bloom is a kid who was never in this high a position before, so of course he will be a yes-man for Henry.
Clipper: I think Bloom is saying that the Red Sox did not feel there was momentum building toward a deal as was reported.
Okay, perhaps that’s just a very awkwardly framed sentence. If he’s asserting he wasn’t under the impression momentum was building, or that they were in “deep talks,” then that means the situation was misread. I believe that.
I hope he stays there forever! Viva la Chaim!
It’s not your fault, Clipper. The sentence in fact misstated the case. The “impression” Bloom was referring to wasn’t that he had made a last-minute bid to keep Bogaerts. He was talking about rumors that the Sox were gaining traction in talks with Bogaerts. Bloom didn’t think the talks were going anywhere.
Boras or one of his employees was almost certainly the “leaker” — and with Jon Heyman, the human bulletin board, publishing everything he hears it the minute he hears it, all the agents have a means to play competing front offices against each other.
It looks like the Padres may have gotten snookered by Boras.
What Fink sed. Bloom didn’t write the article. Where his quote was placed v.v. context was not in his control.
That said, he’s gifted at talking a lot and saying very little.
Which is exactly as he intends it.
Fink: Agreed Boras most likely played SD like a fiddle.
Nice take. why else would they make such an offer? There was no way the Sox were going that many years. Bogie then took the guarantee. He’ll be traded by new ownership in a few years and he’ll get compensated again for waiving his no trade. This is a better near term signing but long term this is another Hosmer deal.
Good take. The Padres had set a precedent with coming in late and seemingly way over the top with both Turner and Judge. Boras at work. Boras succeeding at work.
And we hope for Cashman to keep re-upping. How’s the Yankees been doing the past 20 years under Cashman? Highest payroll, highest sunk cost into development and no WS in 15 years.
Well, I’m not sure who “we” are that keep hoping for Cashman to re-sign, but many of us wanted a change at the helm after the last roster turnover when he botched that.
Nonetheless, he hasn’t done a very good job at getting a title, but the Yankees haven’t come close to where the RSox are right now, honestly. I would take Cashman over Bloom any day, and that’s saying a lot.
Nyah, nyah! It’s only been 13 years!
I kid.
MudyChicken, if you thought you were going to hear a defense of Cashman from me, you were pecking around the wrong roost.
I’ve been calling for Cashman to get a pink slip for years. He’s wasted enormous sums of money on ill-considered acquisitions while enjoying financial advantages most GM’s can only dream of.
His recent 4-year extension simply confirms that his employers are content with the profits, and championships are the concern of the players and fans. The Yankees are a business, and business is good.
Clip – So would I. Cashman has swung some really good deals and had some really good signings, he’s definitely more competent than Bloom.
The person who wrote it works for the team’s owner. It wasn’t leaked by Boras and the Padres didn’t get snookered.
What happened is Bloom lied straight up. The team never meant to sign Bogaerts. They wanted fans to think they wanted to because season ticket renewals were due in November.
They knew full well going into the offseason that spending on players was going way up. It does the first year after a new CBA is signed and especially so this time because the owners got their heads handed to them in the CBA negotiations for the players share of revenue being so low.
The Red Sox consciously never made a competitive bid. At all. Other teams were at 7 years and over $200 million. At least a few were willing to go 8. The Red Sox knew that. We are not the only ones that read trade rumors. Knowing all that, they came back to Bogaerts with 6/160. Hoping that like the last time he would sign an extremely team friendly deal. He said been there, done that, have the t-shirt. Not going to keep playing for a losing team for much less than other teams are offering me.
The Padres were smart and spread that money out over 11 years instead of just adding a year to the $30 million AAV plus deals Bogaerts already had on the table. Now they have another elite SS to add to their collection of elite shortstops.
The person who wrote what?
AJ PRELLER is a buffoon…. and you are correct. Any Red Sox fan that thinks Bogaerts was worth what he received from San Diego in Years and dollars, is just thinking shortsightedly. You pay players for what they are going to do during the term of the contract and not what they did in the past. Facts are that Bogey will significantly under perform for the contract he just signed. By year 6 or 7 of that deal he will either be released or traded (and if traded SD will be paying the contract/ See Eric Hosmer).
Cashman has done some good deals and some bad deals. He oversold many of his prospects and wasted them until their values sunk to very low levels like Miguel Andujar and Clint Frazier to name a few.
Cashman hoarded/overvalued prospects and lost out on trade deals for Justin Verlander, Cole Hammels and others.
@yc you know what’s sad is it seems like bo’s is giving up and trying to be the rays and failing miserably at it. one of the best rivalries in bb is nyy and bos heck i dislike both teams (still respect them) but when both teams were good at the same time i loved watching a nyy & bos game, because it was like watching a playoff game because of the animosity between both teams.
p.s. i mean no i’ll will towards tb and i believe they will spend if they can actually move to tb. i’ve been to the trop and it’s a nightmare getting there and there is nothing around it but warehouses so there is no draw for the pain going to a rays game
If you read the actual article, rather than the mlbtraderumors summary of the article, what Bloom said was that he had an idea where things were going with Bogaerts well before the deal with San Diego was completed, and that while he was aware of reports that Bogaerts could resign with the Red Sox, that was not his impression.
@ yankee clipper
It means he realized that XB had stronger offers all along. They gave him an opportunity to stay if he really wanted to, but at what they thought was the maximum price for Boston. XB was more interested in top dollar, unlike Turner or Judge.
It means bloom realized he screwed up SO bad, and alienated the player SO much, that the player was unwilling to take a grossly inferior deal to remain in a club where winning comes in last place and gathering prospects and retreads comes first.
ZIPS says Bogey with worth in excess of 260m over the next decade. With all his ‘analytics, bloom thought he wasn’t.
Now, if the current and 3 prior offseasons are showing us anything, Bloom is likely wrong again as he almost always has been proven to this point.
What it cost us all is the chance to watch Bogey chase records with the team that brought him in as a 16 year old and could’ve had his number retired here. Bloom thought Bogey should pay US for that privilege by taking a deal of almost 50% less, rather than realizing those storyline and memories for the fan base are something he should be PAYING to bring us.
Who’s worse at running a big league team–Bloom or Frahan Zaidi?
Blooms teams have more playoff victories.
I’d say Bloom because he inherited more talent on the big league team and managed to squander it.
The rose is off the Bloom ? Will he lose Devers too ?
Yes
These contracts going out remind me of the 2000 and 2001 offseasons when some really bad deals were given out. Darren Dreifort, Denny Neagle, Mike Hampton are three that come to mind.
Bloom is in a weird spot, but he’s also guilty of offering a bad deal to Bogaerts in the offseason. He’s in charge of a big market team, but he’s still running them as if he’s with the Rays – not in the sense of overall payroll, but he is bargain shopping instead of paying market price for proven products.
Yeah I think it’s fair to say that the Red Sox probably didn’t expect Bogaerts to get this much, because most people didn’t either. But they lowballed him and that’s probably a big part of the issue.
Bloom deserves almost of the blame, but I wonder if he’s trying to be thrifty because it’s what he’s used to, or if it’s because John Henry isn’t letting him spend.
Personally, I think with how metric and system-based they are, I imagine they have a set # they are willing to go to based on their system and refuse to budge. That takes the human element of it, and really makes Chaim Bloom’s job relatively pointless if all they are doing is building a team based off a system. There has to be some emotion involved, just like managing. You can’t do everything based off a computer.
Well put!
True but what about Yoshida and Story? Where do they fit into that equation? The Sox are still spending money, but strangely…
I think you could justify the Story signing as the replacement insurance for Bogaerts at a decent price if Bogaerts decided to leave. They likely knew that Bogaerts’s price was out of their comfortable price range with his age and length of deal he’d command.
Yoshida profiles to be similar to Brandon Nimmo offensively, so they got a player like Nimmo at a much lower price and without giving up compensation picks. That’s IF Yoshida’s talent translates.
How can you justify Story who can’t hit outside of Colorado and is injury prone who also has a hard time throwing the ball across the field
Every report I’ve seen on Yoshida is that he’s nothing more then a triple A player that’s already 30
Fans are pissed because the Sox have the highest ticket price and they’re going up this yr also and this is the crap team they expect people to spend money to watch it’s Boston not Tampa or KC
I also think a lot of this analytical GMs have a goal of being at least “average” at every position, and then exceptional at 2 positions and that’s the winning formula – at least on the offensive side of the ball. Yoshida is now their replacement for JD, and I still won’t be surprised to see them make a bunch of “value” moves and surprise all of us with 90 wins next year.
The thing that hurts them though is that fans cling to players, and in a big market, fans want to love their main cogs on the roster. The Red Sox are giving Red Sox fans no reason to love the players, because they are letting the big names walk.
RyanD44 – They are more likely to win 45 than 90.
Talent wins games and the talent that led them to a far better than expected season in 2021 is currently walking out the door or has already left. No JD, no Bogaerts, no Renfroe, no Perez and no Vazquez (although Vazquez had his one bad year in 2021).
Talent wins games. Boston is severely lacking talent.
I can’t say it enough times. Do a spreadsheet by position with columns for each AL East team. Then tell me you think they will win 90 games.
It’s an illogical conclusion looking at the facts. Talent wins games.
Given the players they lost, I would be surprised if the Red Sox match their 2022 win%.
Poorly. Giving SS money to a 2B is poor spending. Giving SS money to a DH is poor spending.
Bloom missed the boat with Betts and Boegarts. He was in shock when Boegarts signed with the Padres, their offer wasn’t even in the ballpark. The lack of knowledge on whether to of when to trade a player like them is just a poor job. The Sox got next nothing for Betts, and nothing for Boggy. Bloom is sitting on the hot seat now.
Slider: The MassLive article shows that Bloom did not expect to sign Bogaerts after meeting with him and Boras at the Winter Meetings and was not shocked he signed with SD.
Not true, when Bloom found out Boggy was going to the Padres, he had to collect himself first and then made a statement. He was in shock!
Slider: He explained things pretty clearly in the MassLive article. He did not expect to sign Bogaerts. I don’t buy that he was shocked. He did say he was sad. I think they made the right decision which is the most important thing to me.
I believe the real time reports of how he was observed in the airport. Not an after the fact spin job stated with time to reflect and concoct a story.
Bloom was blind-sided, thinking his lowball would work and still. Ot admitting to himself how much he botched the process over the last 16 months.
GASoxFan: I am not sure what to believe. Bloom may have a hidden agenda. Reporters may have a hidden agenda. I do agree with your post above that John Henry probably does not see a better person to hire now if he fired Bloom.
Ownership did not want to sign those 2 players. Devers will be gone too
I wonder if Henry’s purchase of the Penguins is influencing his spending for the RSox. Obviously they have money because he invested $900MM in his purchase of the Penguins (not sure if he floated the whole or just majority).
Either way, I can’t imagine Sox fans tolerating this much longer. They’re like Yankees fans….only angrier.
I don’t know. I think Yankees fans are still worse than Sox fans when it comes to being irrational. Yankees fans think it is their birthright to always have the highest payroll in baseball and win the WS every year. 13 years without a title has made them act like “long suffering” NY Jets and NY Knicks fans.
“Yankees fans think it is their birthright to always have the highest payroll in baseball and win the WS every year.”
Untrue! We don’t always expect to have the highest payroll. Top 2 is okay. Everything else is accurate though – lol.
More fans means more crazies like me and @whyhayzee (wearing a NYY jersey under his RS)!
That dieed along time ago, the new Walmarts are taking over and their names are the Dodgers and Mets. That;s like saying the Bruins and Canadians are the teams in hockey!
Clipper: I think it’s all up to John Henry. I am glad he doesn’t like long absurd contracts. I don’t want any players like Aaron Hicks on the Red Sox. Hicks is a glaring example. I think he should have been DFA’d last year.
I certainly get that point, man. They’re torture on the back end. From what I gather (and experienced with Judge) is that the Sox fans are upset because they feel a better offer in the front end to Bogaerts would’ve accomplished signing him at a lower value than his FA value & would’ve locked him in at a more reasonable length. Essentially, a better offer a year or two ago to extend provides the team more leverage in the negotiations.
I heard a really good point by a Red Sox talk show guy (sorry I don’t recall his name). He posited a question about why they wouldn’t first try to incorporate Story’s $160MM into an extension for Bogaerts, thereby making Bogaerts extension much more affordable at even a higher rate (say, $250MM). Then they’re only paying the same $90MM they offered him in ST anyway but they keep the face of their franchise to lock him up and retire his number.
Made sense to me from that perspective and I could understand the anger. Same with Judge. Cashman banked on $213MM being a fair offer (it was) and Judge having an average season in his walk year. But that cost the Yankees an extra hundred million or so, plus more years, and they almost lost Judge altogether.
Clipper: Good points. To me, the Story signing just does not fit in with how Bloom operates. It made no sense to me. It almost looked like ownership wanted him to make a “big signing” to show all the complainers they are not cheap. So, Bloom actually got a bargain on Trevor Story. Although the contract doesn’t look like a bargain now.
A lot of people are missing the point. Objectively, Jeter was NOT good at the end of his career. He made all-star teams where objectively there WERE statistically MUCH better SS in the AL.
But his fan base still loved him. So what if the bat deteriorated? What if his range was shortening, and, he felt the grind more than before. He was The Captain, and, his fans loved watching him finish his career as a celebration of all his years and surviving member of the Core 4.
Bloom deprived Sox fans of these memories. He did it with Betts. He’s done it with Bogey. And he’s done it while fielding a pisspoor product on the field in pursuit of ‘prospects’ while squandering value in the trades he could’ve made to bring more prospects of higher quality and mlb ready status.
Hicks is easily one of the best 4th OFers in baseball. 29 teams can use him. DFA’ing him because he isn’t what he was signed for is as bad an error as continuing to treat him as if he was still a starter on a contender, but GM’s hate to be embarrassed.
Jack: I think the Yankees have tried to trade Hicks and no one wants him and his contract.
I think people often forget he owned the marlins, although between championships, and to some degree liked the model they had in 97’. When you look at the model they have after winning a ws it’s never really been retool or rebuild; it’s been riding out and the success and recommitting when fans begin to tune out.
The issue now is they over played their hand and are now left with a foundation of Story, and mostly unproven players after 2023. They have continued to fail to develop pitching, and most of the prospects beyond bello and cases are slated to hit the majors late 2024. It’s going to lead to over spending or significant trades next year, maybe both.
Let’s be real this team is trending down and the ALCS run is looking like an outlier. As much as I’d love to have Raffy locked up long term, I believe we should trade him. The free agency market is driving prices up higher than the Sox are willing to pay. I’m not as opposed to pinching penny’s as most Sox fans due to how I assume these mega deals will look in a few years. However, instead of letting our guys get away for minimal gain (Betts, Bogey) let’s get a nice haul for Raffy while we can. As of now we’re a middle of the pack team that will hover around .500, probably the worst place you could be in the MLB.
I agree with trading Raffy, but, for a different reason. He’s always been a defensive liability. His body type tends not to age well as anything other than a 1b/dh, and even then it’s iffy. And he wants to be paid as something far more than a 1b/dh, and thus, the premium he’s asking isn’t worth it.
Nobody who disliked the idea of keeping Bogey around at 260m or more should like the idea of Raffy, who, will want a 14 yr deal himself
At least it’s progress I don’t see any bad mouthing of Bogey saying he didn’t want to be here but then again no way they can go there.
I didn’t think Bloom could look any worse from this situation. Then he makes these comments that do just that.
For supposed fans of the team, local posters on here don’t know much about it.
I read something the other day in a NYC paper and looked it up. It’s true…..
Not only is the top Red Sox prospect a SS, but EIGHT (8) of their top 30 prospects play SS.
They were supposed to give a veteran at age 30 a large long-term contract? A player that that while not being an especially good SS refused to move off the position and play elsewhere?
The Red Sox farm system is ranked around 11th and rising (not saying those rankings are totally accurate, but generally they make
a point).
Wish him well in SD and move on.
Lookie folks, Samuel can still use Google even though he is a Septuagenarian.
Sammy, Their top SS prospect is in the Sally league. He will be there next year, too. He might end up in AA by the eend of the season if all the breaks go his way. About 1 in 5 prospects at that point make it to the majors as a 1st string starter and one in 20 play in the majors at anything close to the elite level Bogaerts has shown he is for 7-8 years. The luck of the Irish won’t help you in that regard.
Do you remember who the Red Sox top prospect was in 2012? A sure thing prospect all the Red Sox fans were cooing over. Will Middlebrooks. Do you remember who the #1 prospect in baseball was? Matt Moore. Of the top 100 position player prospects in 2012, 6 went on to play at the level Bogaerts has, and Bogaerts is one of those 6. Harper, Trout, Machado, Arenado, Lindor and Bogaerts.
Mayers is the only Red Sox SS prospect that is in the top 100. Most are not even rated a 40. No, Rafaela is not a shortstop anymore. He is already a utility player. Most of the rest started the 2022 season in rookie ball or the Sally league. They won’t help dig the Red Sox out of their elite SS hole any time soon. 2025 if you are lucky.
Stop crying in your Sam Adams and move on. Your Red Sox are looking at another last place finish.
websoulsurfer;
Feel superior? Guess you told me!
They finished last in the AL East in 2022. They can pay half a billion dollars for Bogaerts and Devers, and finish last in 2023 and for years thereafter.
I’m not a Red Sox fan.
What else are you wrong about.
It’s abundantly clear he doesn’t possess the ability to communicate with the media like Dombrowski. I find it ironic though that the actual GM is no where to be seen or heard of, which as a fan makes me believe Chaim is in the cross hairs at this point.
GM – From you keyboard to actual reality!!!
I’ve had him in my cross hairs since the Mookie embarrassment.
So when is Devers traded? Because Bloom won’t resign him to the 14 year/$500 million deal he is going to demand.
If your a fan your hoping the ownership is extremely embarrassed by the public perception right now, fire bloom, make a public apology, and purposely over pay for Devers.
I’m a fan and have been much longer than you. (I saw Ted Williams play at Fenway.) and I think your remarks are quite stupid.
PKCasimir – Like you I watched Williams too and GM Ima Scapegoats comments were correct except the last one.
1 – Ownership should be embarrassed but their focus is elsewhere the last 3 years.
2 – Ownership should have fired Bloom after the Mookie deal or any time after that
3 – Ownership owes the fans an apology for abandoning them beginning on the day they fired Dombrowski
He is wrong to suggest over paying Devers as an action Red Sox fans would want because it doesn’t help the team. All the others do.
With respect to Devers, there is only one solution that makes sense for the good of the team:
Move Devers to DH and offer him a contract comparable to Yordan Alvarez. Despite Alvarez being a better hitter and fielder, the market was clearly set for a DH with his hitting abilities. If it’s good enough for Houston, it should be good enough for Boston especially after the 3 year fall Boston has taken.
If Devers wants more then trade him now to maximize the payback.
PKCasimir;
LOL
I saw Ted play as well those later years. Frank Malzone, Mickey Vernon, Jackie Jensen, Jimmy Piersall, Milt Bolling, Pete Runnels (in his later years), Billy Goodman, Faye Throneberry (Marvelous Marv’s brother), Ike Delock…terrible pitching as always.
That was when Red Sox fans were classy and not entitled. They rooted for their teams with more enthusiasm than any other fans
in the American League. And they understood the sport. Nothing like the majority of their descendants.
Yes it’s ignorant to believe that the ownerships actions since 2018 would command the respect of a player like Devers. Considering what the market has shown this off-season why would devers except a offer from a team that has a history of lowballing their own players? They clearly lost the respect of the club house and currently don’t look to be anything more than a 70 win team next year.
I’d say it’s stupid to assume that Devers has motivation to sign with the Red Sox at this point unless they are willing to go beyond what the current market is dictating. And even then what direction does the team have right now? They are not built to win now and unless they make major improvements that won’t change by the time he hits free agency. At this point you would need to fire bloom to signal a change in direction.
I get they didn’t have free agency when you were a kid but the outdated idea that guys want to stay in Boston just because it’s the Red Sox is part of the problem, you can’t low ball players just because you have history.
Devers thinks he is a 3B and he is going to ask for a 14-year deal with an AAV above $30 million.
If Bogaerts, who is a legitimate SS, was far too expensive for the Red Sox, do you believe that they will even put in a bid on Devers?
If you do, I have beachfront property in Arizona I would like to offer you.
As far as Alvarez goes, he signed a deal before he was even arbitration eligible, let alone a FA. That ship sailed long ago for the Red Sox.
If they want Devers the Red Sox are going to have to put their big boy panties on and belly up to the table with some tall cash. A 6/115 deal would be a serious non-starter, would end negotiations immediately. and he would walk too. Another 4th round draft pick coming the Red Sox way if that is the route they take.
The 3 year fall was part of their “Tank strategy” after they win a Championship to reload the farm.
None of us knows what the budget Bloom was given by Henry, Werner and Sam Kennedy.
Find out and that will answer many of your questions and/or open up new questions.
G.M. Ima Scapegoat;
Hold your breath and stomp your feet.
I have never seen a larger group of 70 something year old Red Sox fans in one place as I have in this thread.
We are in the presence of the oldest group of Red Sox fans in the world that is actually online.
They make me feel young. I only remember YAZ and his first batting title on the terrible 1963 team. But my Aunt who was born in 1899 remembered ALL the history and sadly didn’t live long enough to see 2004. I remember her disgust that Frank Malzone was their only All Star. They’ve come a long way. Quit complaining.
Ouch – “Bloom, when talking about the Red Sox pursuit to retain Bogaerts, essentially confirmed that Boston never had a chance and that reports of optimism about negotiations were unfounded as the front office never expected to be able to meet the shortstop’s price.”
So every word he said about Bogaerts being their priority was a lie?
From the MassLive article linked in this article:
“Bloom said the Red Sox truly considered Bogaerts its top priority for the last few weeks and tried to back it up with actions, even if the final offer came well short of what the shortstop took from San Diego.
“We wouldn’t have said that if we didn’t mean it,” Bloom said. “I think it became clear to us as things went on that this was going to go to a point that we just weren’t, irrespective of how we prioritize things, it just wasn’t something that we should do. It’s hard because of how much we love him. But it’s just the reality of the situation.”
They offered 6/160. That is not a serious offer.
Chaim lied and then he tried to spin it afterwards. Red Sox better make the playoffs this season or it will be the last year in baseball for Bloom.
Bogaerts was a “priority” but only with the Red Sox “home team discount deal”.
Once, Bogaerts elected free agency, then the probability of him signing with the Red Sox was slim (unless he got himself arrested or failed a drug test and his value plummeted).
Maybe if Bloom was more serious about extending Bogaerts then maybe he’d still be with the team. Once Turner set the SS market it was over
I agree with those that believe Devers will be traded. And as usual, the Dodgers are a perfect fit. The need a third baseman, and always have plenty of excellent prospects. Would Miguel Vargas, Josh Outman and some minor league pitching be fair?
Caristi – I don’t think the Dodgers would accept such a bad defender but if you think they would get him to DH, that makes sense but Devers would probably pout the entire contract. He has never understood or cared that his fielding percentage being 20 points below league average hurts his team.
Truth of the matter is they had plenty of time before free agency to give him a solid offer. I suspect if they offered him 160M/6 last spring he might have taken it.
Absolutely they did. Instead, they insulted him with a 1-year extension offer last off season and signed his supposed replacement in Trevor Story.
What a colossal f up on Bloom’s part.
Not if Boras was his agent last spring. He was always going to test the market. SDP offered an overpay for a stupid number of years. Bloom knows better than to damage Boston’s future.
Then why did Xander sign the initial extension, if he was so eager to test the market??
I think he was quite happy to stay in Boston, right up until Bloom slapped him in the face with an astronomically low offer and signed Trevor “I can only hit in Colorado” Story to be his successor.
Now you know why Bostonians hate Bloom. 18 wasn’t that long ago but seeing that kind of success is a long way off. With him , maybe never.
Chaim, I’m disappointed in you. -Richard
What a clown. I’ve never seen a front office exec more over their head. He needs to go carry Cherington’s bags in Pittsburgh
Thats the truth, any fantasy GM could do better than this Bloomin Idiot.
Rking;
B I N G O !
MLB is not fantasy league.
The GM doesn’t get the same amount of money as every other GM each year to draft established players for one year.
But that’s what Red Sox posters on here think MLB is.
He is in one if the biggest markets in baseball, money isn’t the problem, capability is.
Drink!
GM should be fired. Not sure there’s been a worse one in MLB the last couple season.
Who names their kid Chaim?
Baseball has spun out of control.
Reggie’s $1 million deal that was for three years?
Anyone remember Oct. 18, 1977? Me: College student in night lab bugging out after second homer.
Amazing nobody protests against joking against a proud Jewish name.. Can think of many, many others common now in this country am pretty sure those tagged with them cannot even spell themselves due to their own self inflicted illiteracy.
Despite all the hype, MONEYBALL does NOT work.
MONEY does.
Yes, how many championships has the A’s had, time for Charlie ball!
FALSE!
“Moneyball” is just a nickname for Sabermetrics that has, for good or ill,
taken over Front Offices throughout MLB.
After Billy Beane turned down John Henry’s job offer to be GM of the Red Sox,
Henry pivoted to hiring and setting up a special analytics department that that became heavily involved in sabermetrics.
Henry and the Red Sox just stole Billy Beane’s ideas and created their own
sabermetrics department and then added big spending to the equation.
The sabermetrics revolution in MLB helped get the Red Sox something like 4 World Serie titles when they hadn’t won one in a long, long time,
The Rays have made the World Series 2X spending low budget like the A’s etc…and using sabermetrics.
“The sabermetrics revolution in MLB helped get the Red Sox something like 4 World Serie titles when they hadn’t won one in a long, long time,”
AND a HUGE payroll.
You left that part off.
Even the small market Royals had a $144 million payroll (top ten, maybe top 5) when they won.
The huge payroll is the common denominator among teams that fly flags.
Re read my comments above
“Henry and the Red Sox just stole Billy Beane’s ideas and created their own
sabermetrics department and then added big spending to the equation”.
Right.
Let me know when “Moneyball” works WITHOUT money in the equation.
Until then it’s just more of the Horatio Alger window dressing MLB uses to pretend that the game isn’t rigged for big market teams.
Devers career will end the same way Pablo Sandoval’s did.
I’m seeing comments giving Bloom and ownership benefit of the doubt. I have a bridge in Arizona I would like to sell you. They could have signed Bogaerts and Devers both last winter with reasonable offers, but refused to negotiate seriously. I said when they screwed over Vazquez that Bogaerts was gone. Once he was gone, Devers was gone. And the Sox have no shot at Otani.
100% agreed. The time to sign Bogaerts was last off season, but instead Bloom and the Red Sox insulted the franchise icon with a ridiculously lowball offer, and signed his supposed replacement in Trevor Story.
There was no coming back from that slap in the face.
Bloom’s tenure has been a catastrophe.
Again, Boras clients do not sign before they test the market. Nothing was going to happen last off season.
Except Bogey signed his 6yr 120m deal 1 year away from FA in 2019, and, was, wait for it… a Boras client!
And no FA involved!
Exactly.
GASoxFan – Thank you. Generalizations create misconceptions about facts. Every negotiation is different whether it’s Boras or not.
100% accurate. In 6 years the league will be facing a huge crisis. All these 8,9,10,11 contracts will start bringing organizations into reality that will ultimately hurt the game & the fans will suffer. Every professional league has a cap on length of contracts & a salary cap. Baseball refuses to do work together to give every city that has a team an equal opportunity to compete for a championship. My Tigers went all in & got to two World Series but then the aftermath of 2016 has placed them in purgatory the last 7 years & it could be another 5 years. 11 years for Xander Bogaerts is a 100 million over his worth & 6 years over the years he will produce. This is a nightmare!
davidkaner;
The truth.
MLB couldn’t face up to steroids when everyone knew it was wide-spread for years. Couldn’t stop the electronic cheating that was going on for years before the Astros were caught in the WS. The constant missed calls in playoff games and WS before they would allow instant replay. The juiced baseballs. And you are totally correct – the field isn’t level for fans of all cities to have a chance to have a contending team in a couple of years if they’re down and out today. Now come owners with the Mets and Padres that don’t care at all about a luxury tax and are flaunting their riches as they attempt to buy a championship…with others following behind them.
Then we get to the current commissioner with the man on 2B in extra innings while encouraging the leagues players to act like 12 year-olds if they do something good.
I loved baseball for over half a century. These past few years are enough. I’ll watch some of the small market teams that have built good young rosters. But really, the screwball playoffs with 20% of the teams making them along with teams making 3-5 transactions a week during the season is just a joke. Teams have over 30 pitchers on their roster over a season, and over 22 position payers. No one knows whose on their team from week to week, let alone their opponents.
The long contracts aren’t that big a deal.
If a player is declined, has 3 yrs left, you release him and he is off your roster. If he is so bad nobody will pick him up for league minimum, he’s out of baseball. If someone picks him up, well, by then league min is likely 2 million or so. And you get a discount off what’s charged against your cbt.
No big deal.
This front office group would be really wise to get Casas and/or Bello under contract through their first couple of FA years. Yes, there’s a potential long term cost savings there, but it would be really helpful to plant a flag for a direction/new core being established. They’re whiffing on contention by losing Xander and a quantity over quality approach at MLB level. But they also do things like bizarrely trading into going over the luxury tax threshold, and leaving the first pick of the rule 5 draft unprotected, which seem like unforced errors that suggest they might not be quite as good at long term building as we’re hoping.
If you start locking up your next round of early 20 somethings, it’s going to go a long way to restoring some confidence that this isn’t – maybe not a dumpster fire, but certainly a lit cigarette tossed in the dumpster.
rhswanzey – Excellent suggestions.
AAV of a player with half or more of his controllable years in the long term deal makes things best for ownership. It creates reasonable cost for a superstar five years after the deal. No opt outs is the key so give more up from the beginning to buy the opt outs.
Only exception is a guy like Kyle Lewis who looks to be great and then fails. Closer to home, you can’t buy into the hype of Downs and offer a guy like that big money. Same is true for all the current Bloom acquisitions. Dalbec failed but maybe Casas will rebound and deserve a contract in 2 years. So many other potential guys in the minors that could qualify. Mookie came out of nowhere after not initially being highly touted. Reduce risk by betting on players younger but only after they have proved themselves. Boston would have done well doing that for Betts, Benintendi and Bogaerts. Devers can’t field but a long term DH contract 2 years ago would have kept him in Boston for many more years.
Casa hasn’t shown he’s much of anything to this point. Remember, dalbec had a rough start then poured it on. Casas hasn’t even poured it on yet.
Would you want dalbed locked in for 8 more years right now at an elevated salary?
Casas posted a 120 wRC+ as a 22yo first basemen with a .208 BABIP. He had some very competitive at bats with flashes of above average regular. Yes, absolutely sign me up for locking him up through his age 30 season. Maybe we could add a couple of team options at $20m and $25m for his age 31 and 32 seasons, which both have to be picked up or declined with a $7m buyout prior to his age 31 season. How much does age 23-30 cost?
Numbers I saw didn’t read 120 wrc+… and, had 5hr with a .197 BA and 23K in 95PA…
If you multiplied that by a factor of 5, you get 500PA, 25hr, sub .200 hitting, and 125k.
With such a small sample size you really need to wait and see, remember, pitchers don’t yet have a book on him, there’s a reason players in a second FULL season see a slump. Need to wait and see his ability to adjust and keep adjusting as pitchers find new ways to attack.
No way, just NO WAY you extend him until at least nidway through his pre-arb 2 season, if not just before his last pre-arb season starts.
Could’ve kept better production than that with a great glove in schwarber…. oh. Wait, bloom blew that one. And look what schwarbs did last season.
rhswanzey – I think we need to categorize the minor league players who we are talking about.
A highly “rated” prospect means nothing since it’s not fact based using any of the farm system evaluations or even the MLB or BA evaluations. Analysts need to look at the numbers from a macro viewpoint and a micro viewpoint. Can a 20 year old hit A pitching? Hi-A? AA? AAA? Could we promote him and let him get a taste of the MLB pitching at age 20?. IF the answer is not AAA or higher then we aren’t ready to even consider offering the kid anything long-term.
Sustained success across all levels of the minors is critical. If a player gets promoted over his skill level at the end of a year and fails but returns to that level the next year and dominates, that’s the type of learning experience that makes for an excellent prospect. Once the promotion to the MLB happens and the player struggles then if they come back and jump to a highly competitive level it’s time to consider the long-term, especially if they dominated in the lower level of the minors.
Devers dominated in the minors at hitting. He’s always been a butcher on defense. The Red Sox got JD to fill Papi’s shoes and unfortunately he wasn’t a true outfielder. If he had been, then in 2017 when Boston saw Devers hit well to finish the year they could have moved him to DH in 2018 and as he struggled with the bat and hit .240 they would have had a chance to temper their hopes for him. When he flourished in 2019 after his 2018 struggles, that’s when the long term deal would have made sense. To start the 2020 season, Devers should have been offered 10 years for $150MM. I think he would have signed for that. If not, then a closer look might have allowed slightly more to lock him in.
Mookie dominated the minors and was there only a short time. After his great 2015 and 2016 seasons Boston should have offered him 10 years for $200MM and he probably would have signed as well. This would have put Mookie at $20MM in 2020 when Devers would have been getting his $15MM. Instead, Mookie was paid $27MM in 2020.and Devers made minimum in 2020. The difference in 2020 was $7MM between what they got or what they could have got so the contracts in 2020 would have cost Boston more money but think how much better off the team would be today!!
Pulledabloom- but beware extensions based on AAA mashing. Recall an early JBJ mashed, smoked the ball through AAA. But his ceiling was a AAAA player. Now, whether he was mismanaged, or, never had a true mlb level hit tool, the fact was had he been given a massive long term deal back them it would’ve been a mistake.
And I liked jbj as a player for what he was, when the teams around him could hide his bat in the pre-bloom years, ay least up until bloom brought him back on an albatross assumed contract. He was never worth that. But considering a contract for a premier AAA showing is always wrong. You wait until after pre-arb2 to decide. Then you see how they adjust to the league adapting to them.
Hey GA…with that theory then do you believe the Mariners extended Julio too soon and they should have waited to see his production in Year 2 ??? I’m a Seattle guy so I am optimistic and think JRod is a blooming superstar but I suppose it couldn’t have hurt to wait a little longer like you suggest.
@ignorant –
To be honest, it’s hard to say. Here’s a bit of stream of consciousness thought process on your question. So, if youd like, hear me out, and, correct me if I’m wrong somewhere as I don’t follow Seattle extremely closely. But, my sox play you guys regularly enough I do keep tabs.
I premise this on the fact Seattle, to my recollection, had its best ever peak salary in the mid to upper 100s… I want to say 160s to 170s million, a few years back?
When I read about Julio’s extension, it’s pretty complicated. Tons of escalators, and, multiple bundles of years for a couple sets of options. But it all boils down to this: the options are in any case expensive. If Julio is good enough to want to keep him at the cheapest option, which with no escalators at all, I feel like was an additional 8yrs and 200+million?
Here’s the thing, at 25m, or, 1/7th the highest payroll ever was, you’d expect the kid to have some all stars, some silver sluggers, some mvp votes under his belt right? Problem is, exactly the things that make you willing to pay 25m/yr makes that option jump higher in value closer to what, 35m a year or so. Now you’re talking 20% of team payroll on one player.
So, can Seattle afford to surround him with enough talent with that much payroll tied up? I call this Mike Trout syndrome – except without Arte making bonehead directives interfering. You take Artes bad deals away, and trout tied up excessive percentage remaining payroll. Exactly how a successful Julio would. That arte influence levels the unequal spending power.
What is the trade value on a player like Julio at 35m/year? Not sure. It’s about market value now, but, if salaries keep climbing sport wide… maybe it’s not as high.
I however, don’t think the steep climb in salaries is sustainable. Right now RSNs and MLB media contracts were rolling over. On the front end its a big jump, but, these are long contracts. There’s only so much revenue to capture beyond the jump at new deals, so, ew inflows of cash will slow to a gradual change, no longer a steep climb up. No more bamtech to sell. How long until expansion teams? Who knows.
Where am I going with that? Well, next year Seattle pays him near 7m instead of 700k. Then, we guess, did he play enough to hit super 2? I think that’s pretty safe to say. If he entered arb in year 3, with increases in years 4, 5, and 6, where do we think he would’ve gone value wise? No matter how good the player, they don’t jump to 20m in the first year of arb. Julio has room to grow, but hasn’t been near the monster year bellinger had when he pulled down near 11m.
So my guess is maybe year 5 julio would’ve broken into the 20-22m arb award. Can we make up numbers with nothing behind them and say his arb1 – 8m, arb2 – 14m, arb3 – 22m, arb4 30m? Just for sake of argument?
That, if we compare the extension to those figures, Seattle pays +6m yr2, +12m yr3, +6m yr4, -2m yr5, -10m yr6…. or, 12m extra dollars up front, and, locks in the control and those options.
There’s a risk though, in those player options. If something goes wrong you’re on the hook for a long time at a high cost. Julio had a better season than Grady Sizemore, but, he was young, put up a string of four or five great seasons, but then… injuries. Career basically over.
If Julio took that path it’d be crippling. I’m just really not a believer in ultra early extensions. With the massive options built in the deal, I think something structured almost exactly the same, except a higher 1st year extension value than 6m, could’ve been struck after 2023. Especially if a goodwill bump in the renewal rate was set at say 3m instead of 700k.
I still lean towards waiting, but, if ownership gave me a heads up about projected payroll and I knew projected levels going forward… maybe I’d be more aggressive. I, at least, don’t know enough reporting on anything your ownership would’ve said for long term guidance.
Oh Chaim, you have so much to answer for… It would take the remainder of your days to adequately appraise us of the thinking behind your strategy since you arrived on the scene. My thinking is John Henry plucked the wrong brainchild from Tampa Bay’s Academy of Future GM Superiority. I would also question the fact that just plucking somebody from a successful front office means anything much. Chaim wouldn’t have passed the initial interview with me because I don’t think he can explain his way out of a paper bag. Obfuscation upon obfuscation and circular pretzel logic throughout.
This is such a Chaim, a Chaim I tell ya!
You may not have seen interviews with Bloom in Tampa—he clearly knows what he’s doing.
The rationale for this seems obvious: Bloom was given a hard cap by ownership re Bogaerts, and that was never going to get it done. Bloom appears to have been hired to take the hit for ownership’s new direction, while doing his best with a nothing payroll and a farm system that hadn’t even begun to be geared for this direction.
Even so, Boston’s farm was ranked last in 2019, and is now 11th. So whatever the specifics of his brief, he’s brought the farm along nicely.
Except he’s wasted mlb level assets for years but not committing to either content or a rebuild.
And he’s had the payroll to do it as well, look at how much he spent on buying prospects with bad contracts attached or signing multitudes of failed former top prospects to multimillion dollar contracts to see them fail yet again, instead of investing in proven talent to win.
Anyone can tank for years to get top draft picks. The byproduct of that tanking is your farm rank improves, full of lottery tickets that statistically will never be winners in the majority of cases. No skill needed for that.
JackStrawb – Do you work for Bloom? You presented some very spin doctored material in your comments.
You fabricate a hard cap by owners for Bogaerts? That’s not how it works. Bloom presents owners with suggestions for Bogaerts and they say yes, no or make alterations to the number. Bloom is hired to package deals to the owners. That’s his job. He’s not there as an errand boy or a coffee retriever, he’s the GM. The guy responsible for packaging offers for the owners to review.
Bloom was hired because he was inexperienced and probably one of the owners knew somebody who politically supported Bloom to give him the edge over truly qualified GMs seeking the Boston job.
Was he hired to axe Mookie and Price? Probably since owners had issues with the two players. Did he know that going in? Absolutely!! Did he have the savvy that Dombrowski did when it comes to dealing with owners? Absolutely not. Was Bloom both the Henchman and the Scapegoat? Probably, but along the way he proved to be totally inept at doing his job.
The farm system is rated 150 points higher because Bloom’s initial actions of disposing of Mookie and Price landed the team the 4th pick in the draft and Mayer was worth 150 points moving them from 21 to 9. Since then they have fallen which speaks volumes to all the pro Bloom people suggesting things are getting better!! They are not. The ranking is falling due to guys like Downs who Bloom acquired for the great Mookie Betts as an over=hyped prospect from his mentor Friedman.
The farm system is not coming along nicely. It had a one=time jump due to a #4 pick in the 2021 draft. Otherwise, new names but none of the names have moved the needle upwards.
Facts are important when speaking of Bloom. His propaganda is well spread both on this site and in the media. The marketing team is constantly promoting the misconception that the farm system improved. The marketing team is constantly promoting acquisitions as if the players are impact players when they are not. He acquired Story after nearly 3 years and he is the only all-star quality player that he has permanently added to the team. In the same time frame he has lost – Mookie, Price, Benny, Renfroe after being applauded for the add, Schwarber after being applauded for the add and now JD, Eovaldi, Vazquez and possibly Devers.
It’s very fair to argue that he has no idea what he is doing.
PulledABloom- Really appreciate reading your posts on this thread tonight. Thank you for spending the time.
Chaim is following Ownership’s budget and marching orders as delivered to him by Sam Kennedy.
I am thinking that there is much more to this Red Sox story.
And, it may be the reason Dombrowski was let go.
Dombrowski wants to win.
Maybe, Ownership is content to let their expensive free agents walk out the door
and just reload the team with the Marcello Mayer’s of the draft.?!
At some point, there needs to be an insider account written about all the goings-on inside the Red Sox front office starting perhaps with the firing/dismissal of Tito to the departure of DD, to the hiring of Chaim, covering his handling of Betts and Xander. And all the palace intrigue associated with this era especially the mindset of Henry in all these regards. I don’t follow the Red Sox as my primary team, so maybe some of this is already well documented, but it would be a fascinating read if done right; with probably many lessons on how NOT to run one of the elite franchises in all of pro sports.
Ignorant Son-of-a-b
It involves the Commissioners Office, MLB Ownership Group,
How Montreal’s franchise was ripped away.
How Jeffrey Lurie purchased the Expos.
How John Henry came to control the Marlins.
How MLB did a “3 corner deal” with Henry getting the Red Sox, Lurie getting the Marlins and DC getting the Expos.
The history of John Henry &; Tom Werner micromanaging the Reds Sox that lead to a succession of successful front office executives being driven out of Boston: Epstein, Cherrington, Hazen, Dombrowski etc..
The “Win and Tank” strategy that the Red Sox appear to favor.
The budget and “marching orders” given to the Red Sox Front office’ that is mot openly disclosed/discussed with fans etc..
Henry’s purchase of other sports franchises including a Soccer team in Europe that is draining Red Sox resources
That is it in a nutshell.
Red Sox are in one of their “tanking” cycles.
Expect them to be competitive again in ’24?! ’25!? or ’26?!
Thank you SportsFan, there is obviously a long and convoluted history there that boggles my mind just reading how far back it goes and all the weirdness it entails. Perhaps I am naive and all sports franchises are owned and managed in very peculiar ways. If there is not a book written encapsulating all of that, there should be.
No plan.
Fire Chaim Bloom.
Honestly surprised to see some of the Boston faithful defending him up top as having good long-term intuition. I don’t mean that as an insult because perhaps they’re right, it’s just surprising to me.
Yankees fans would never allow this or excuse this, brother. Holy Toledo!
Agreed, Clipper. I simply can’t read too much of the excuse making – bizarre. Bloom dismantled a championship core – it’s gone. Bloom had plenty of time to extend Bogey, it would not have taken $280 million – Bloom placed himself in a position of having to bid against other teams and, in my opinion, now he’s whining about that fact. Bloom’s erratic decision making demonstrates all the hallmarks of a man with no plan.
Frustrating.
I even understand and can sympathize with those who claim Bogaerts wouldn’t have signed. I get it. But, man, that’s a hard sell when the initial offer was a nut punch.
Had they offered him a fair-market value contract and he still chose to decline and go to FA, then signed a massive deal, I think RSox Nation would’ve been okay with that – or perhaps more okay with that. This just makes Bloom look completely out of touch or inept, imo.
Meanwhile, fans feel ZERO connection to anyone on the big league club. There’s nobody going for club records. Nobody playing to see their number retired on the wall. Nobody you’ve watched grow and ide tiny with making you want to visit the ballpark.
As one person, I matter zero to Henry and I know it. But, I haven’t subscribed to any streaming service because who would pay to watch a pisspoor product on the field. I purchase no merchandise, no player jerseys because there’s nobody to identify with or root for. And I won’t for any rookie because I know as long as chaim is around they have no future in boston, no matter how good they are.
All true, Clip … the fault lies with Bloom – that “wouldn’t sign” narrative is just Bloom defender noise. They said the same of Betts. A skilled GM has the people-skills and market-know-how to get these deals done in a timely, mutually beneficial manner. I see no defence for Bloom’s ongoing mistakes.
GA – enjoy reading your posts. I’m in complete agreement up here in Nova Scotia. I’m on your side!
Fire Chaim Bloom.
I think one thing worth pointing out that we aren’t really talking about, is, can you name a single free agent signing or trade made by this front office group that was leaked? I can’t
I question whether the 4/90 spring 2022 extension offer was the full extent of negotiations, or whether leaking 4/90 was a negotiation tactic from the Boras camp, to raise the temperature on the Sox FO. I also question what other offers may have been made or not made between then and Wednesday. I say all that totally disappointed and irritated if reports that the Sox topped out at 6/160ish are true.
30 parks – thanks for the compliment. I’ve been telling the wife we need to make a tour through your little sliver of paradise once the covid restrictions fully relax.
We’re multi-vaxxed, but, weren’t together last time I stomped around the maritimes. Had a nice month long tour through Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, and Prince Edward. Good food, nice people, it was really pleasant. At the time the exchange rate was about 30% in our favor so even the gas prices didn’t faze me while running around in my big ol 87 burban. Pictures don’t do justice to walking around in Fundi either, I’m sure you must’ve made it out that way at least once.
Also, when we were ‘slumming it’ll say Tim hortons> dunking donuts and Don cherrys>applebees/fridays/etc.
GASoxFan— between you and PulledABloom have greatly appreciated your takes tonight and learned a lot. Thank you for taking the time and imparting some great wisdom. Cheers
Great to hear, GA. I’m tucked away in northern Cape Breton – I’m sure you passed through here on your journeys. Good to know there are like-minded souls in this world. I’ve been all over the States (43 of the 50 states) – I enjoy you Americans and your beautiful country. Hope all is well in the south!
Fire Chaim Bloom!
Yankee Clipper
Yankees fans have “allowed” Cashman’s “business plan” over the last 13 years that has not produced one World Series Championship.
Cashman has hoarded and overvalued “prospects”
that has cost the Yankees the players that could have put them “over the top”
and made them Champions, again.
Verlander and Gerrit Cole botched trades are examples.
SportsFan: I couldn’t agree with you more, sir. Everything you said is completely true and accurate. And when he finally does trade prospects, their value has dropped off to the point they yield nothing of significant value.
There is a plan: Tank for a few years. load up on high draft picks to replace
the core players that the Red Sox are allowing to walk out the door.
Compete again in ’25 or ’26.
Bogaerts sure would look nice in a Yankee uniform
by Bogaerts I mean Devers = X
As the DH? I thought the Yankees had several of those.
I dont get this comment?
Devers isn’t a 3B long term, or, even much longer if there’s any choice. He need to move to DH, and, I wouldn’t trust him at 1B at all
The problem with Devers is obvious: He’s a 4-win 3Bman asking for $300 million in an era where 3B is a well-stocked position.
We’ll see how big the hit is in Red Sox attendance this season and whether Fenway has lost more of its luster as a destination sporting event.
The problem with fenway attendance figures is they are skewed. They report ticket sales, which, no matter how bad the team has been have sold out or nearly so much of the time.
Problem is, because of the smaller capacity, ticket resellers buy a massive amount, I’d assume upwards of 40% or more of seats.
The true indicator is if you go to a game and see how many EMPTY seats there are. That’s because those seats didn’t get resold, there were no takers to attend.
And there have been a LOT of empty seats in fenway lately.
Don’t believe a word Chaim Bloom says! Sox Ownership has become absolutely atrocious! Less team payroll = ticket price increase = more $$$ in greedy owners pockets!
All Bloom is doing now is covering his rear end. He is saying that we gave it the old college try with an insulting offer of 6 years at 160 million. That was below average for a guy like Bogaerts. Bloom sold Henry a Bill of Goods for a continuous flow of young cheaper talent from the minor leagues combined with a few free agent players mixed in. Unfortunately I don’t see anything earth shattering from the rookies that were brought up. The Red Sox just do not pay loyalty to their home grown players like Mookie Betts, Jon Lester, Xander Bogaerts, and Devers will be next. When the team struggles this year will be Blooms last year. He will be the fall guy for Henry and the Bill of Goods he sold.
I think it was Henry and Werner who were looking for a guy like Bloom
to restructure the roster with young, cheaper players.
Sign a few players to a home team discount and let the rest walk.
It sucks to see Bogaerts go, but he is on a decline and that contract length is asinine. There’s going to be more bad years than good years in that contract. His power numbers were low at Fenway and it will be worse at Petco Park. I would choose Devers over him every day of the week.
Agreed, but unfortunately I think Devers has dollar signs in his eyes and overvalues himself. Expecting 10years x 300m as a starting point for a one-dimensional player is not good business. I hope they trade him now and just get it over with. With this off season’s contracts, I bet he’s expecting 12years x 420m. now.
I’m done with this team until Chaim Bloom is fired. Actually makes me miss Dan Duquette!
Duquette was not all bad.
Sure, he dumped Clemens claiming his career was headed for sunset or twilight or some such, I forget the exact words. But, was the resurgence mainly fueled by the later revealed steroid connection? Had clemens stayed, would the sox be more steroid tainted? Would he have spread the junk to other players?
Looking past that, he directly laid the foundation for the late 90s early oughts success. He made what Theo built on possible.
He drafted Nomar. He traded for Pedro. He signed Manny, who, while we dont KNOW he was using at the time, made the foundation for that lethal Manny/papi combo, and did it at a time that, like now, FAs didnt put BOS high on their destination list.
He traded heath slocumb for freakin Jason Varitek and Derek Lowe, how big an impact did that have?
There is no ’04 without Duquette, he gets a bad rap.
The Red Sox are in another tank cycle.
They are dumping some of their higher salaried players.
As they finish near or at the bottom of the
Division, they are drafting what they hope are the replacements for Bogarts and others.
The Story deal was made in anticipation of some of their star players walking..
Red Sox Ownership is too busy spending their money on the English soccer
team that is draining the budget that would have been used to sign Bogarts and
other Red Sox free agents.
If they can keep the fans interested and spending their money on ticket sales and going to the games, then ownership and the Front Office are preparing for another window of contention in ’24? 25? or ’26?!
That is possible, but the salary cap budget for our owner is peanuts. I don’t understand why we are not getting any good quality players, and we are still 40K million UNDER the salary cap.
Not a ton coming off the books after 23, is there?
John Henry is a Wall St guy who made his money betting on futures.
He is treating his player assets the same way he treats his business assets.
Buy low, sell high.
Devers is as good as gone.
Might as well trade him too!
The Red Sox have done this numerous times:
Win Championship, tank, win Championship tank, rinse repeat.
Marching orders are coming from John Henry, Tom Werner and Sam Kennedy.
Bloom is the “man in the middle”
doing what his bosses have ordered him to do.
I say trade Devers to the Mets, Dodgers, Giants–teams that might have deep pockets and get their MiLB pitching prospects in return. Devers is a fine prospect-he’s still a prospect-he’s destined to be a DH or 1 B. He will get paid for his bat in ’23 why waste your time grooming him and giving him the playing time when we could sign Swanson for SS for the next 5 years for Story money. Move Story to 3 B and hope he adapts with Arroyo waiting for 2 B to become available. That’s a pretty solid infield.
Learn our lesson from 2022 with Boggie & Devers; to say nothing of Mookie. If you like the player in the future EXTEND THEM EARLY.
I would say trade Devers to the Yankees for Glyber Torres/ Harrison Bader and a couple of pitching prospects. Can you imagine Devers at the Stadium with their lineup and the short porch in RF. Yikes.
Aren’t we lucky to have a FORUM TO TALK BASEBALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not a Red Sox fan but any team is smart in not signing any 30yo player to a deal longer than 8 years.
I really do support Bloom, for not going all out for Bogarts. As someone who also mentioned in the comments, I believe Bogarts first and biggest mistake, if he wanted to stay with Boston was getting Boras as his agent. I really don’t think it matters what Boston offered Bogarts earlier or not, Boras almost always brings his players into free agency. Boris represents himself through the players, and sells to the highest bidder.
The bigger concern I have, Bloom hasn’t gone after replacements. I do suport moving Story to ss, and hernandez from CF to 2B. There are plenty of OF out there to fill an OF position, and plenty to get at a discounted price. EX: Conforto. Get him for the OF, as you have the CF in the japanese signee. Get a top SP like Rodon or if you don’t want to spend $25K a year then Bassitt is solid and will be cheaper. Get a top catcher. I know Oakland is asked alot, but if we send a 1B, Dalbac, which is what they are looking for, is MLB ready. Send Jetter Downs, as York is probably better, and an OF like Bleis. and keep Rafaela. I’m sure that is close to what they will accept, as Oakland asked St Louis for similiar, but St. Louis backed out, and signed Contreras. Any thoughts?
Do you want to put Joshida, that on the prognoses of experts badly plays the left field in CF?
Dalbec and Downs doesn’t have a trade value, Murphy will begin with Casas, but in any way not with Dalbec.
We have two catchers in McGuire and Wong, third catcher in R.Hernandez in triple AAA and, we don’t need a fourth catcher, we need 2 starting pitchers and RF RHB.
I agree, but if you saw the 3 players Oakland asked from St. Louis were, these are compadible, with Bleis a upper tier prospect, as is Nootbaar. Nootbar broke into the MLB, where Bleis isn’t ready.
yes, we have catchers, but who will be starting?? none are proven
100% agree, we need Starting pitching. That’s why I don’t understand why we didn’t give Senga 5 for $80. We should get Rodon, Bassitt who is good. Another reliever would be nice also. The longer Bloom wait, the lower quality we are going to get in starting pitchers.
All these deals, I see that Red Sox have interest, Bloom seems hesitant and the value isn’t accurate. Yoshida was estimated to be worth a lot less then we paid for him. How did that negotiating go to be that high?
Bloom won’t trade in prospects the more, that were drafted at him.
Think, Mayer, York, Jordan, Bleis, Romero not subject to trade..
Rodon searches 7 ys contract, but Red Sox won’t go on such length on clear reasons.
Motion with Joshida looks like last year’s motion with Story, replacement of Bogaerts, to show that Bloom can spend, but Chaim can’t manage with home-bred players, therefore overpays to the free agents.
I better would go on tested Haniger, that with force right hand, can play the right field and in defence higher than middle, and Verdugo would transfer to the left field with Kike in CF and Rafaela on approach in some moment in 2023.
As a last resort it was possible to sign Vazquez, then will be to move one of catchers.
I would try to go on Burns from Milwaukee, however Bloom doesn’t trades in prospects.
At the market of a pitchers remained:
Rodon, Bassitt, Syndergaard, Eovaldi,Stripling, Wacha, Kluber.
Saw some comments about Bloom’s offer of 6 year for 160K. That actually is 26.66k a year.
The offer he received from San Diego, is 11year for 280k. That comes too only 25.45 a year.
it is actually 1k millions less a year. I get it, its the total number of 11 years & 280K
Folks, keep in mind, Boris being the representative, he takes almost every player into free agency, If Boston offered Bogarts, the 6yr. 160k earlier, I really don’t think Boris would accept that, but he would still take to free agency.
Just my thoughts.
My biggest concern is, why we didn’t sign Senga, who is a bigger star then our new Japanese OF, 5yr. 90k We should have given him easily 5k 80k or 6k 95k
thoughts? and also what we go get now for SP and Catching????
Nice going. Now we have a giant hole at SS.
They are waiting on Marcelo Mayer
as a fan, if i was a red sox fan i would appreciate the honesty & transparency. as a Padres fan, the contract we gave Xandah is ridiculous. but most ridiculous is promising him SS when he absolutely sucks defensively. there’s no way the Padres will be able to sign both Soto & Manny if he opts out. those 2 should have been given priority over signing someone who is only good offensively. while that same argument can be made for Soto, dude will be 24 as a free agent, not 30. & as good a hitter as Bogaerts is, he’s nowhere near Soto.
I like a lot of what you say. I agree in not giving Boaerts that length. We can move Story to SS, as he is much better defensively then Bogaerts. My biggest concern is, Bloom feels like he is behind the trend on all free agents. This was the most obvious by not what the market expected him to get (5yr-80k) I would love to know what Bloom was looking to do for Senga, as the Mets came in and got him for 5yr -75k. So what was Bloom offering him??
seems like he can’t pull the trigger fast enough. Now, there is not much top quality available.
I don’t see the Red Sox getting Rodon at this point, because he is now looking for 7 eyars, probably for 25k -30k a year.
Chaim Bloome, John Henry better extend Raffy Devers…that’s all Redsox Nation will demand at this point…if you don’t…it’s gonna be bad!
Agreed! Devers is younger then all of the past that left, and probably a much better hitter then all that left.