The Blue Jays announced that they have acquired outfielder Daulton Varsho from the Diamondbacks. Going the other way will be catching prospect Gabriel Moreno and outfielder Lourdes Gurriel Jr..
For the Blue Jays, they’ve long been looking to add a left-handed complement to their right-handed heavy lineup. They’ve also been rumored all offseason to be willing to deal from their catching surplus in order to address other areas of their roster. With Danny Jansen, Alejandro Kirk and Moreno all jockeying for playing time, it seemed like they would use one of them to line up a deal with a catching-needy team. The Diamondbacks, meanwhile, have drawn much trade interest this offseason on their multiple outfielders. Corbin Carroll, Alek Thomas, Jake McCarthy and Varsho are all left-handed and have various attributes, but it made for a logjam that many expected to be cleared via trade. Given those factors, the two teams have been frequently made for speculative trade partners, which has come to fruition with this deal.
Varsho, 26, was a top 100 prospect in the minors and debuted for the Diamondbacks in 2020. Though he was primarily a catcher, his natural athleticism has pushed him into more of an outfield role recently. It was reported towards the end of the 2022 campaign that the Diamondbacks were so impressed by his outfield work that they were planning to keep him there going forward. That was a fairly sensible conclusion to draw given his excellent defensive grades on the grass. He was given a +19 from Defensive Runs Saved in the outfield this year, along with an 18.8 from Ultimate Zone Rating and 17 Outs Above Average. All three of those figures were tops among all MLB outfielders this year, with the DRS tally tied with Michael A. Taylor. Varsho has seen time at all three outfield positions in his time in the big leagues thus far, giving the Jays plenty of flexibility in how he fits into their alignments.
The Blue Jays have largely been focused on run prevention this offseason, adding Chris Bassitt to their rotation, Erik Swanson to their bullpen and defensive specialist Kevin Kiermaier to their outfield. Now with Varsho, they’ve continued down that run prevention path by adding the best defensive outfielder of 2022. Varsho isn’t merely limited to being a glove-only contributor, however. He hit 27 home runs this year and stole 16 bases. He finished the season with a .235/.302/.443 batting line, good enough for a wRC+ of 106, indicating he was 6% above league average. Those contributions put together amounted to 4.6 wins above replacement for the year, per the calculations of FanGraphs.
This move, and their other moves this offseason, have resulted in righties Gurriel and Teoscar Hernández being swapped out for lefties Kiermaier and Varsho. Gurriel and Hernandez are more productive at the plate but both are generally regarded as subpar defenders, while Kiermaier and Varsho are generally the inverse, though Varsho took a big step forward at the plate this year. Varsho and Kiermaier should slot into an outfield mix that also includes George Springer and Whit Merrifield. While last year’s alignment saw Springer as the top defensive option, flanked by two bat-first teammates, he now seems like the third best defender in Toronto’s outfield mix.
For the Diamondbacks, they are acquiring one of the top prospects in the sport, regardless of position, but certainly one of the top catching prospects. Moreno, 23 in February, is considered the No. 3 prospect in the game by both Baseball America and FanGraphs. He made his MLB debut in 2022 and carried himself well in over his first 73 plate appearances, hitting .319/.356/.377 for a wRC+ of 113. Spending most of the year in Triple-A, he hit .315/.386/.420 for a wRC+ of 120. Though the power part of his game could be lacking, all reports point to him being an excellent defender who has keen bat-to-ball skills. That’s borne out by his 16.9% strikeout rate in Triple-A this year and 11% rate in his MLB debut.
The club has used Carson Kelly, 28, as its primary catcher over the past four seasons, who has proved inconsistent in that time. His 2019 and 2021 seasons were both above average at the plate, as he hit double-digit home runs and walk rates, leading to a wRC+ of 107 in the former and 103 in the latter. However, his 2020 and 2022 seasons were on the low side, with the walks and the power both dipping. He posted a wRC+ of 70 in 2020 and just 73 in 2022. Defensively, he’s generally considered around average, with DRS have graded him at exactly zero thus far in his career.
Kelly still has two years of arbitration control remaining and likely has the catching job for now, given Moreno’s youth and limited experience. Moreno will also require some time to get to know Arizona’s pitching staff. But as Moreno continues to develop, it’s possible that Kelly will get squeezed out in time and become a trade chip himself before he reaches the open market.
As they subtract from their multitude of left-handed hitting outfielders, the Diamondbacks are bringing in a right-hander for more balance in Gurriel. The 29-year-old has spent the past five seasons with the Jays and has a career batting line of .285/.329/.468 and a wRC+ of 115. He doesn’t come with a noticeable platoon split, as he has an even 115 wRC+ against both righties and lefties. That makes him perfectly capable of playing every day for the Snakes. He is in his final year of control before becoming a free agent, which doesn’t make him a long-term solution in the desert, but he should give the club some time to continue to evaluate young players like Carroll and Thomas. If those younger players take steps forward and command everyday jobs and/or the Diamondbacks aren’t in contention in the middle of 2023, Gurriel would make for an intriguing trade candidate.
Defensively, Gurriel broke in as an infielder but was moved to left field in 2019 and has largely been there since, apart from the occasional turn at first base. Reviews on his glovework are mixed, as he has a +4 in the outfield from DRS, but a -4.7 from UZR and a -16 OAA. That limits his contributions somewhat but his bat has been above average in each of his five seasons thus far.
Financially, the Jays will be saving a bit of money on this deal as Gurriel will be making $5.4MM in 2023, his final year before free agency. Varsho, meanwhile, has four years of control remaining but has qualified for arbitration this winter as a Super Two player. He just squeaked in on that one, as his two years and 128 days of service time are an exact match for this year’s cutoff. He’s projected for a salary of $2.8MM by MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz and will get three further arb raises through 2026. Moreno, meanwhile, has yet to reach arbitration with just a couple of months of time in the big leagues thus far, giving the Diamondbacks six further years of control over his services.
The slight financial difference won’t matter much to the Diamondbacks but could have ramifications for the Jays. Roster Resource currently pegs the club’s competitive balance tax figure as just a hair over the lowest luxury tax threshold of $233MM. Those numbers are unofficial and will surely change with future moves throughout the offseason and during the actual season. The arbitration salaries are also just estimates and will have an impact on the tally once they are cemented. But if the Jays continue to hover right around the luxury tax line, the small savings could determine which side of that line they finish on.
In the end, both clubs addressed their needs by dealing from positions of strength. The Jays acquired an all-around player in Varsho who can help them this year and in the future. In order to do so, they’ve subtracted from their prospect capital and catching surplus, as well as dealing an impending free agent in Gurriel. For the Diamondbacks, they’ve sent out a solid contributor but should still have a great outfield without him, and they’ve also loaded their farm for future success. They now have four of the top 20 prospects in baseball, with Moreno at #3 at Baseball America, followed by Carroll at #5, shortstop Jordan Lawlar at #11 and outfielder Druw Jones at #19.
Jon Heyman of The New York Post first reported that the Jays were close to landing Varsho. Jeff Passan of ESPN first reported a deal was in place that involved Varsho and Moreno. Bob Nightengale of USA Today first had the involvement of Gurriel.
Images courtesy of USA Today Sports.
Mystery13
Holy hell. Please do not include Moreno
Mystery13
Damnit
GMoney2850
Update: lol
Francys01
I could easily say that the Diamondbacks did very good in this trade. They might win this trade. Great job Arizona D-Backs.
Russelmysanchez21
Everyone will easily say Arizona did well in this trade…. Gurriel on top? Seriously ?
Mystery13
According to BTV the Jays get the most value. I still would have preferred to trade Kirk
Troutahni
Kirk is a smart clutch hitter who just happens to play Catcher. Toronto did very well today. Both teams did.
Troutahni
Kirk is one helluva professional hitter! Could be the best complete hitter on the Blue Jays.
Four4fore
Kirk is good clutch hitter who could easily eat his way out of the league if he’s not careful.
freeland1787
He won’t stick behind the plate long, by the time he reaches free agency may end up being a full-time DH at his current physique.
alwaysgo4two
Behind the plate? That’s punny.
In nurse follars
The worst form of statistics junk science. Meaningless.
User 899214610
awe man lolol good catch . da dum ts
Melchez17
I wonder why it cost a top prospects and Gurriel for Varsho? Varsho is barely above average hitter. Fielding? He’s a former catcher that plays outfield .. that transition isn’t very common and when it has happened, has it turned out well?
Poster formerly known as . . .
There were three players in baseball, all positions included, credited with more Outs Above Average than Daulton Varsho.
Yeah, he plays outfield all right.
Melchez17
I thought Jansen was going. Keep Kirk. Sign a veteran backup and have Moreno when Kirk needs to move to DH.
Andrew-UK
Definitely not!
stymeedone
Craig Biggio comes to mind, though he played 2B, too.
❤️ MuteButton
I was thinking the same thing. I would rather have Gurriel than Varsho straight up.
Shoguneye
In limited playing time Moreno looked legit. 6 years of control vs 4 for Varsho.
Prospect vs established product.
Unless the jays saw something in the .300 swing that wont age well and combined with Lourdes would seem a bit of an overpay but not a deal breaker.
Gurriel should have a strong year but his defensive routes can be perplexing. A cannon arm. Solid contact hitter with winning streaks.
Iasounis
@Melchez17 Craig Biggio says ‘hi’.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Crazy talk Gurriel was the throw in to says Toronto some cash.
Moreno is the Top 5 overall prospect and Varsho is the all-star.
Prospectnvstr
Melchez17: Dale Murphy and Craig Biggio say Hi.
Prospectnvstr
Craig Biggio was an ALL STAR catcher, then an ALL STAR second baseman before he became an outfielder.
❤️ MuteButton
and then returned to 2B. He did catch one inning to end his career.
DogDays2
Mute, care to give a reason or is it just because you like Gurriel’s hair?
Andrew-UK
That’s just crazy
JackStrawb
“Clutch hitter.”
bullred
Lourdes Gurriel Jr. has carried the Jays on his back for long stretches every year which has made Jays fans feel he could put it all together, but he never has. He has always been a streaky player who is fun to watch play even when he struggles because of his personality.
goalieguy41
Says the fat guy living in mom’s basement eating pizza rolls and drinking energy drinks.
C-Daddy
@mutebutton
Gurriel has 8 career WAR over five seasons and has one season of control left. Varsho had 5 WAR just last season and has four seasons of control left. Glad you’re not running the team.
slimray
bj surhoff did it great for milwaukee and baltimore.
Hotstovemelts
What reality do you live in? How can you make that statement and then not expect to be ridiculed? Do you watch baseball?
Russelmysanchez21
Teoscar who was underpaid for his value in exchange for mariners 6th best reliever…
Gurriel and Moreno traded for arizonas what? 2nd or third best outfielder ? Possibly fourth? …. WOW atkins sucks at trades…. I mean I like Varsho but…. Dear lord what a stinker on both trades
goalieguy41
Says the guy with zero baseball management experience
goalieguy41
Says the guy with zero baseball management experience Bet you’ll be happy with glee when the Jays win the division.
Francys01
goalieguy41- Are you good?
User 3044878754
Shapiro is the culprit. He’s never won anything.
Russelmysanchez21
I’m Alex Anthopoulos
Troutahni
Your right Russelmysanchez21, but the jettisoning of both Teoscar and Lourdes keeps their budget in check and affords them more money in their budget to sign both Guerrero and Bichette when they get their new contracts. The Blue Jays now have the best rotation in the AL East. The Yankees have only 1 starter, Cole, who is a workhorse. The Blue Jays have 4.
As much as I love Rodon, he can’t regularly throw 120 pitches a game.
Travis’ Wood
They did well in the Teoscar deal. Look what Milwaukee got for comparable Renfroe. This trade seems like an overpay though
Still in talks
Varsho was their best outfielder last year. Do you even watch their games?
DogDays2
Look, I have alot of respect for the Jays and their roster.
But better rotation than Yankees? Get outta here lol
freeland1787
Varsho was the Diamondbacks best outfielder last year, both offensively and defensively.
Hotstovemelts
Toronto has the best rotation in the AL East?!?! They barely have the 3rd best rotation in the AL east behind Tampa Bay and WAY behind NY Yankees.
DogDays2
So typical how selective “player evaluators” are here.
So the guys in the Toronto rotation who throw 170 innings are workhorses. But Cortez who throws 170 including the playoffs isn’t.
DogDays2
You can keep “workhorse” Berrios and his 5.30 era.
Skebinx
100%. I’d trade Shapiro for a bag of chips.
The_M4N
Nah, he’s been smoking the Buddha.
The_M4N
@troutahni, back that statement up??? I would love to hear it.
SAM’s
He really is, this is Ben S. By the way
Sunday Lasagna
Varsho is a fantastic ball player who is just coming into his own. His first full season as a regular in the majors and he showed power, speed, great defense. Moreno might pan out, but Gurriel is past peak, and Varsho wont just be in a lineup with Guerrero and Bichette he will be a force in a lineup with Guerrero and Bichette. Toronto will be the “winner” of this trade.
Sunday Lasagna
No doubt Berrios had an awful 2022, but the five years prior suggest he’s an above average starter. Two years ago you could not have received Berrios straight up for Rodon. He will bounce back.
DogDays2
Things change a lot in two years.
DogDays2
I guess those guys you mentioned weren’t great talent evaluators.
Andrew-UK
Opposite view
Sunday Lasagna
@DogDays2 for Rodon things certainly did! As for Berrios and his above average 5 years followed by last years clunker, I have a pretty simple theory. Berrios and his brother in law Baez got huge contracts in the off-season, and both were proverbially “fat and happy” in 2022. I believe their pride will kick in this off-season, they will both work hard and in 2023 resemble their former selves…..and yes, I realize that in todays day and age to not have statistical data to back up a claim is scoffed at, but I think no matter how hard we look at advanced metrics, at some point there is a human element that comes into play.
DogDays2
Oh I completely agree about the human aspect.
But whether he bounces back or not, I’ll take the Yankee rotation.
Now…. As far as lineups go, that might unfortunately might be another issue.
Sunday Lasagna
Yes, the Yankee rotation is better. Cole, Rodon, Sevy, Montas & Cortes is super solid, German as a number 6. It’s one of the best in the game. I’m not confident in their bullpen though. Really surprised they didn’t do something about 3B and LF. There are holes. Playoff team, yeah, it’s a 95 plus win team, but seems like the Yanlee teams we’ve seen for some time now, not quite enough.
DogDays2
Agreed. I’m confident they’ll have another LF by spring training. But the names rumored don’t sound real exciting.
jimmertee
Yankees are going to rake with that rotation. They’ll win the ALEast.
dbdmack
As a sox fan, I’ll take the Jays rotation over the Yankees.
Giant Willy
How do you have any idea what experience complete strangers have?
DogDays2
Yeah. Of course you will.
Shoguneye
‘Herbnandez’ F year should be monstrous but Swanson contollable and the other could turn into something.
Shoguneye
So your definition of the best rotation is the number of workhorses?
Weak argument
DogDays2
His criteria:
1) innings pitched, regardless of performance.
2) assume the pitchers on the team he doesn’t like will all get injured.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Pitcher Gallen, 1B Walker and OG-C Varsho we’re the best players on the team. Sorry, Mantiply! Carroll has the pedigree like Moreno but is still unproven.
The_M4N
@dbdmack, wow, I’m shocked.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Auto-correct created that “we’re” and time ran out so I could not change. And it is OF-C
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Toronto will be happy with Varsho, he is great. But AZ gets Moreno for more years, so no one can say who won for many years.
ayrbhoy
Russell, I understand what you’re saying about Teoscar, I’m pretty sure you’re just playing there but just in case you ACTUALLY feel ripped off on Teo’s return…..let me clear some things up here.
Your comment was spot on about Eric Swanson being the 6th best RPer. Just not in Seattle. He had the 6th best WAR by any AL RPer last yr.
Look under the hood and it gets better- Check out his advanced metrics page for 2022 in Fangraphs. Eric Swanson is MLB’s 2nd best RPer by FIP behind only Edwin Diaz.
His numbers were RIDICULOUS last year. He had a better year than Jordan Romano’s 2021 year! That was a good year. And you get Swanny for 4 more years man. And you get a good young pitching prospect from a FO who has earned a reputation as being astute at spotting and developing young Pitchers.
I would think that a Jays fan would appreciate the need for a stud RPer with a minuscule 0.52 HR/9, a 6.90 K/BB, a WHIP of 0.95 and MLB’s 2nd highest LOB % behind only Edwin Diaz. Better yet Swanny’s splitter is so effective he gets both LH and RH hitters out. You have no idea how good this guy is…and we only have Teo for one year!
josebatflip
You totally underestimate what the Jays got in return for ONE YEAR ofTeoscar: An amazing reliever in Swanson and a strong prospect in Macko. And now the Jays add the best defensive outfielder in baseball who has lots of offensive upside, in return for a top catching prospect, which the Jays don’t need. Jays management does a great job consistently.
Jaysfan1981
Things change alot in 1 year also.
That’s why we play the games and make the trades
Jaysfan1981
29 of the other 30 aren’t good enough talent evaluators each year either.
Guess should be 29 recycled FO/managers each off-season
Wrian Washman
It’s not often that I read a comment so absurd I can feel the veins along my temple start throbbing. The general consensus amongst people who know much more about baseball than you, is that the Yankees have one of the best rotations in baseball. Furthermore, there are maybe a handful of pitchers in the entire league that are expected to “regularly” throw 120 pitches. Most managers start phoning the bullpen around 85-90…
brewsingblue82
I’d have to weigh in and say that typically if they didn’t have enough pride to keep playing strong immediately after getting their large contract, whether they want to bounce back or not, they’re likely going to find it hard to regain form. Look at Jason Heyward. He’s at an age where he wants to keep playing, but now will have to keep hoping other teams think there’s something left. He got lost and never rebounded. The big thing is that once you lose that form, it puts more pressure to try to find it. And I think that’s what does players in. The mental side of most things is tough, but when you’re trying to put it back together on a stage like a sport where everyone’s watching you, they feel that pressure. All the luck to Berrios if he tries to regain form, but it’s not going to be easy.
slimray
none of us on here have mlb managing experience. im not a jays fan,but i do feel they made a great deal.now lets face it,its hard to carry 3 catchers.now the jays got a solid outfielder that at any moment throughout the the season can come in and catch.after you watch him for a month or two you will appriciate what he brings. both teams win on this trade
SAM’s
Riding around in his Burbans and his Lacks
Deadguy
Varsho could be huge for Toronto?
richardc
I think the D-Backs won as well, Varsho has to do more than be a league average hitter for Toronto to win the trade.
Who knows though, maybe with a move to Toronto Varsho can unlock some more of his raw power??
I just think it is a pretty heavy price to pay for Varsho who profile similar to an Adam Duvall. Hopefully, his career will be more linear than Duvall’s roller coaster of a career. For Toronto’s sake they better hope so; otherwise, this could go down as one big mistake.
It does make alot of sense for Toronto if Gurriel wasn’t going to resign, and from the perspective of needing a LH bat, but Gurriel and Moreno were both high quality hitters who could extend rallies and innings.
Plus, Moreno is a quality hitter at a typically non offensive position, albeit one without much power.
Time will tell the tale, but I’m a little skeptical that the Blue Jay’s will come out on top of this trade.
outinleftfield
Then its good that Varsho was 9% above league average as a hitter while being one of the best defensive players in baseball.
Teams are not supposed to “come out on top” in trades. They are supposed to both benefit. That is the goal.
admiral hopppaaa
The Jays may not win in a vacuum but they traded from a position of strength for a position of need. Varsho may make them a better overall team, as they still have solid catching and have vastly improved in the outfield.
GO1962
Both teams will benefit from this trade.
Saskatchewan Jaysfan
Jays did too. Trust me. Gurriel only had one year left,plus we had such a C surplus.. we had to trade a C. Varsho is impressive, and will probably hit well in the hitter confines in the A.L.E.(-Rays)
The Natural
This sort of surprises me. I’d have to say advantage Dbacks.
josephf
They should have just moved Moreno to the outfield. I read he’s pretty athletic for a catcher and the bat plays. Idiots.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
I’m SHOCKED by this deal! Moreno for Varsho straight up would still be crazy imo from the Jays perspective..but Gurriel too? That’s insane! Varsho’s basically a LH Hunter Renfroe for cryin out loud..
mlb1225
Varsho provides a lot more value on defense and base running though. Varsho can play center field to a Gold Glove level, and Renfroe can’t.
GMoney2850
Gurriel is trash. Worth basically zero. Still a win for AZ tho
scissormetimbers
There has to be a pitcher coming back to TO as well, this trade as is makes no sense if that’s all the pieces.
Mystery13
According to BTV as much stock as you put into that Varsho is worth 74.5 and Moreno and Gurriel are a combined 59.3. There has to be something to that
ohyeadam
He looks like Buxton lite
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Mystery..couldn’t care less about BTV..They’ve got Grisham from the Padres at something like 59 too, when realistically, he should be nowhere near that. The DBacks just picked up two potential all stars for a guy with an obp under .310..including a guy who certainly appears to be well on his way to being a top 5 catcher in baseball. That alone has way more value as far as I’m concerned than Varsho.
GMoney2850
How is gurriel a potential all-star lol?
If he were in arbitration he’d be a potential non-tender candidate
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Sure GMoney..nobody would want a .285 lifetime hitter who if healthy is normally good for about 20 hr’s and a decent obp in their lineup. Betcha he makes an AS team at some point.
GMoney2850
He won’t. But he’ll likely be in Japan at some point, so I guess there’s that
Still in talks
Two potential all-stars? A bit of a stretch I say. Moreno has not proven anything. Gurriel is an average player, and has been nothing more over his many seasons.
Plus Gurriel is a free agent next year.
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Betcha Varsho ends up bouncing around like Renfroe after his initial deal comes up. Low .300’s obp’s don’t work in today’s mlb.
alwaysgo4two
Trash? Seriously? You’re obviously not a fan, but a bit dramatic?
GMoney2850
No? He’s an average hitter who can’t play LF. Super easy to find one of those
In nurse follars
The worst form of statistics junk science. Meaningless.
vikingbluejay67
Once upon a time Carson Kelly was going to be a top catcher in the league as well. Prospects don’t always work out.
Sunday Lasagna
Nah, he will be better than Buxton. Jays acquired a guy who will be among the elite OF’s in 2023 and beyond.
Jaysfansince92
You do realize that Varsho had +19 Drs last year. He’s one of the top defensive outfielders in all of baseball plus he can hit. 4.9 WAR last year. He is a stud.
big tee
you’re trying to talk sense into them after they welcomed Kiermaier like he’s a king but they hate this deal even though he’s much better. I don’t get how people don’t get that good players cost good players in a trade. 2% of jays fans even pay attention to the NL so they just need time to realize the errors in their ways.
ohyeadam
Buxton is also elite defensively and has more pop in the bat. Buck is definitely the better player when healthy
Triple slash lines from 21 & 22 combined
Buxton – .257/.327/.576(only 153 games)
Varsho- .239/.308/.441(246 games)
bigdaddyt
That was true 2 years ago but Buxton’s Legs/knees are sooo bad he’s not good out there anymore
iverbure
Imagine disregarding the entire BTV site because you disagree with one player evaluation. Could you please list every mlb player in mlb value in number form so I can go through the list and I will critique your evaluations first round adios Mets?
iverbure
Why do you keep repeating this dumb line?
ayrbhoy
Maybe he’s disregarding the entire BTV site because people quote that fun little site as though its used by Scott Boras and 30 actual MLB FO’s!!
DogDays2
Yeah, FirstRoundAdios is not representing himself well on this topic, or many others.
Some people just don’t get it.
iverbure
Considering the track record of BTV ayrbhoy every person on this site should have to check their trade proposal on there before posting it here and it would save a lot of moronic discussion. And what does Scott Boras have to do with value of a guy in trade?
Whyme
Lol a carreer 288avg hitter would be a non tender candidate LOL
Jays fan. 3
Totally agree. Seems like a reactionary trade after missing conforto. The sky is falling story of the last two years that need a lh bat. This is not it.
roiste
Moreno’s bat prob wouldn’t play well in the outfield tbh. A 110 ish wRC+ is amazing for a catcher but pretty mid for a COF, especially one learning the job on the fly
Troutahni
Good idea, but their need for a quality left handed bat was to great.
freeland1787
It was always going to take Moreno plus more to pry Varsho away from Arizona. I don’t think Toronto was ever going to trade Kirk and Arizona probably not that interested in Jansen with only two years of control left.
Shoguneye
Its called building a team. The jays IMHO have been playing like a bunch of individuals. You can look at individual stats all day long and measure this and analyze that but having a team that clicks with the right pieces is greater than the sum of those pieces.
The Jayz have jettisoned some personalities that may have been distracting or unfocused. Combined with Mattingly on the bench these moves might take the team to greater heights.
steelerbravenation
Nice get for the Jays
Nothing
Really like this deal. It’s not everyday you can acquire a controllable, versatile player with a great glove and decent bat. Giving up Moreno is a blow to the farm system, but I was never as high on him as others are (couldn’t hit for much power). As for Gurriel, he’s a decent outfielder, but definitely not a superstar and only had one year left on his deal if I recall. Love this for the Jays.
bluejays4life
Agreed. Gurriel has one year left on his deal plus another arb year. Total two years controllable.
longsuffering
Gurriel is a FA after this season. Although he doesn’t reach the proper 6 yrs service time, his contract has him as a FA after 2023.
smuzqwpdmx
It’s impossible for am international free agent younger than 23 to sign a contract that will get him to free agency quicker than standard (which is why Ohtani couldn’t, either). Gurriel will be controlled through arbitration in 2024 after his contract expires. And since arbitration is generally argued as percentage raises, he should still be quite affordable.
longsuffering
It was a question among Blue Jays fans and reporters a while back. It was discovered that he becomes a FA after 2023. Don’t ask me the logistics of it, but it came out in Nov 2021. You can look it up. Cot’s has been updated to reflect this.
He signed after his 23rd Bday.
Mystery13
That is not correct, I thought the same. It is something specific to Gurriels contract that makes him a free agent
smuzqwpdmx
Hm, baseball-reference still shows him arb-eligible in 2024. I guess they aren’t always accurate. That makes the trade a little more palatable.
longsuffering
Yeah BBREF and Sportrac have it wrong. Probably just computers following pre-set rules. Lourdes’ contract is an outlier.
freeland1787
Gurriel signed his contract one month after his 23rd birthday.
Faith in the Padres
People seem to forget how big of a play team control comes in
Varsho has 4 years of team control while Gurriel Jr has 2?
Hernandez has 1 year of team control while Swanson has 2 and the prospect Macko has all of his.
Moreso moving them clears some money from the jays books.
Between Springer, Guerrero, Bichette, Kirk, Chapman Jays needs defense more than offense and signing Kiemaier and trading for Varsho certainly improves the defense in the OF. Plus it freed up money to sign Bassitt.
Shoguneye
Swanson’s 4 years not 2
YourDreamGM
3
amk1920
Varsho is good, but feels like Blue Jays could’ve done better for dealing Moreno
DoItDoug
Perhaps there are more players involved
mlb1225
Varsho just put up Gold Glove numbers in right and center field with 27 home runs, and had a 106 wRC+/109 OPS+. Not to mention he hasn’t hit arbitration yet and can give you a few games behind the dish. That’s gonna come at a decent price.
Tassix
You’re not wrong, but Moreno is also worth a lot too. With Gurriel thrown in I would expect another piece to Toronto.
mlb1225
Yeah, I wrote that comment before Gurriel’s inclusion. Moreno for Varsho is okay. I expected maybe a low-level/mid-level prospect from the Jays’ end. But including Gurriel seems a bit steep.
In nurse follars
Salary dump of an extra unnecessary player.
KamKid
Mlb1225, that’s true and Varsho is good and valuable. But the Blue Jays’ quest for lineup balance was supposed to be for a different skill set, not just a left handed bat to balance the righties. Now they have lefties Kiermaier and Varsho who like other Jays swing a lot and get on base very little. Coupled with a projection of a lot of ABs for Merrifield, and this team is starting to look like one whose offensive weaknesses are getting weaker, not stronger. I like Varsho and the return seems reasonable from some perspectives. But I really don’t like the fit for the Blue Jays. I sure hope they see something that suggests he can build on the low xwOBAs that would project for better. He’s young enough. I’m going to stay open minded, but my gut is saying I’m going to be even more frustrated with the team than I was last year.
mlb1225
Imo, it doesn’t make sense to me. After trading Teo, they were looking for outfield help, right? Why trade one of your starting outfielders, and your top prospect for an outfielder? Varsho is great and all, but he’s still only one guy.
Still in talks
It’s was about gaining controllable players. Which they have done.
This team has the majority of their players controlled for a few years, now.
cdouglas24000
Swanson was basically our 2nd best RP last year behind munoz only. Sewald gave up some runs down the stretch but Swanson was money all season. Varsho was the best Defensive OF in mlb. If he takes even a .25 increase in average and becomes more patient he can be an all star. He was 4.6 WAR and imagine if he can get his hitting over .265. I think most catching prospects are severely overrated but it’s not a bad trade. I lean more towards ZONA here.
Shoguneye
Perfect fit in a very versatile lineup.
MarkoRock68
MLB
Good point on Varsho being able to fill in at catcher in a pinch. This will enable the Jays to use Jansen-Kirk between DH and catcher in many games and not have to worry about carrying a 3rd catcher in the event of injury. Opens up another roster spot.
Ted
The thing about catchers is that they are ALWAYS in need and yet catching prospects rarely pan out. Trade ’em when they have any value.
KyleT
“Trade ’em when they have any value.”
Your comment contradicts itself. If they’re always in need and rarely pan out, shouldn’t you keep one if he’s good. Moreno had OPS+ of 111, and is a good defensively, granted in limited time, shouldn’t you keep him? Its not like his numbers are out of line with his minor league numbers.
I disagree. A catcher, whose still in pre-arb and has the potential to be a mainstay, you should hold onto.
PhiladelphiaCollins
Except the fact the Jays are in win-now mode. They have 2 good catchers right now, they have a good infield right now, and it seems they have an improved outfield also at this point.
Guerilla like Teoscar is older without a good glove and not living up to their full potential
Statistics are all lies. They’re lies.
KyleT
True. But that wasnt the point made to begin with. It had nothing to do with where a team was in growth. It was a blanket statement about catchers.
Try to keep up.
solaris602
Nobody knows that better than AZ who thought they were getting a phenomenal talent in Carson Kelly whose just been average. We know what Kirk and Jansen are capable of, but Moreno still is a prospect. DBacks will find out if his talents translate to the majors soon enough.
DocBB
MLB Trade simulator has it the other way. Varsho is worth 74.5 and the Moreno+Guerriel is only 59.3
Tassix
Interesting.
While a numbers guy, I’m not entirely convinced we’ve got quantifying catchers down. Of course that being said we haven’t seen enough of Moreno to know how he works with pitchers and game calling etc either. .
In nurse follars
The worst form of statistics junk science. Meaningless.
DogDays2
You have a better way to calculate Walter White?
iverbure
This ignorant fan keeps repeating this same nonsense like 5 times.
stubby66
Blue Jays get a starting outfielder, who can catch. They could also still trade another catcher for a pitcher or whatever and still be fine .
Tassix
I see nothing wrong with keeping the Kirk/Jansen platoon going.
There’s probably a reason the Dbacks moved him to the field instead of catcher, and then going out and acquiring one.
Presumably he would be functional in an emergency over say Cavan Biggio who I think was the emergency catcher when they had 2 on the roster.
stubby66
I get what your saying but Varsho can catch and honestly these teams now a days overreact about when these catchers are ” ready” to call a game .With now a days technology or coaches calling the pitches from dugout they could play a lot sooner in the majors.
smuzqwpdmx
If you look at Varsho’s defensive stats as a catcher, he can’t catch. At all. Trading another catcher with the idea of having Varsho catch would be a terrible idea, because he’s an elite outfielder and a terrible catcher.
Russelmysanchez21
Thank you for concisely stating what I was whining at long length about haha. Nailed it yes.
It’s not that Varsho is bad it’s just… really? This much ? And now impact players when jays in window?
10centBeerNight
AL east is going to be competitive this year. Write it down
Tcsbaseball
@ beer, wow really went out on a limb there
Tassix
I too will go with the ALE is the ALE.
Chicken In Philly?
Which catcher will it be?
kevincashhof
Pack your bags, Bo baby
manosthof
Wtf does this have to do with Bo?
Tacoshells
Why would the d bags do this ?! Dude almost put up 5 war and 27 bombs!! Get him back !! They already have a good catcher in carson Kelley! Why!
Led Hoyer
I think Moreno fits their timeline much better and they have a ton of outfielders. This makes sense for both teams but I think I’d rather have diamondbacks side. They are going to have a ridiculous core with 5-6 years of control.
Rsox
Either they don’t believe its sustainable or they saw something in Moreno that was too good to pass up.
kidbryant
Carson Kelly isn’t a good catcher…
Moonlight Graham
Because Carroll/Thomas/McCarthy/Gurriel/Lewis is plenty of outfield talent, and now they have a high-upside catcher for the long-term.
smuzqwpdmx
Gurriel can hit 27 HR if he’s fully healthy, and you’ve got him for 2 years (article is wrong) for cheap. Then you’ve got one of the best prospects in the game. Diamondbacks won the trade easily.
Still in talks
Lol. No he’s a free agent next year. He signed after his 23rd birthday. He did this purposely so he would be a free agent sooner.
Do some simple research then checking one website and taking it as truth.
angryyankeesfan1
Would not surprise me if Moreno goes to Arizona.
angryyankeesfan1
I refresh the page and…
LH
Moreno going to AZ
JeffreyChungus
Massive L for the Diamondbacks
Rsox
I feel like its more of an overpay by the Blue Jays but i guess time will tell
Hello, Newman
I could care absolutely less for either team.. But, this feels like a win for the dbacks for me.
JeffreyChungus
The only way one could think that is if they put too much stock in prospect rankings. It’s true that both teams were dealing from a surplus and are improving upon premium positions, but Moreno’s athleticism and launch angle that set him apart in 2021 came back to earth this year. That’s why Gurriel was added-because Varsho is simply more valuable than Moreno will ever be (not that Gurriel is worth much, he’s a free-swinging 4th OF with no pop)
kidbryant
Massive W for DBacks!
sufferforsnakes
Massive L? Seriously? We now have a catcher I won’t mind watching bat. It’s painful watching Carson bat, on top of watching pitches pop out of his catcher’s mitt all the time.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
Wow! I always thought Varsho would be greatly overvalued due to defense and playing catcher several games last year.
Digdugler
You were correct.
In Seager/Hader We Trust > the 70 MM DH Ohtani
I mean it was a huge overpay, but not a once in a generation blunder.
Digdugler
So Varsho is prime KK with the glove? Trying to make sense of his WAR.
Seamaholic
Yeah he’s a beast out there. Prime KK with power.
This one belongs to the Reds
Sounds like one of those deals that will help both teams, outside looking in.
S_man_2014
Unless there is more moving to Toronto, Big win for the Dbacks!
This one belongs to the Reds
I’m sure Jon Heyman is on the case!
brodie-bruce
if heyman is on the case does that mean his source is ms. cleo or the cloudy crystal ball
NoSaint
As a Jays fan, I couldn’t agree more.
CoachBlake
Varsho > Moreno
Jays after the trade > Jay’s before the trade
THEHOUSETHATMOSEBYBUILT
succinct…
kellin
I was looking at Varsho’s stats and he was worth almost 5 WAR last year, but except for a significant increase in HRs, his offense was lower than previous years, yet he was worth four times the WAR? I don’t really understand this stat..
This one belongs to the Reds
OPS is the only newfangled stat that really means anything anyway. The rest are up to interpretation.
My father said a piece of paper lays still, you can right anything on it. I always say you can manipulate stats to say whatever you want.
bluejayspharmclub
You don’t find wRC+ useful?
rct
OPS is ‘newfangled’? On-base percentage and slugging percentage have been around forever, and OPS is literally just adding them together.
mlb1225
OBP was created by Branch Rickey and Allan Roth in the late-40s. Slugging percentage has essentially been around since the late-1800s. It was originally “total base average”, taking the total bases and dividing them by the number of games played. The National League started to recognize it as TB/AB in 1926 and during the same year Rickey and Roth created OBP, the AL adopted this format as well. OPS was even referred to by Ted Willaims in his book, the Science of Hitting: “”I was second only to Ruth in slugging and on-base percentage combined”
iverbure
Reds exposing his ignorance once again when it comes to understanding current baseball.
bkbk
my brother in christ, it was because of defense
Ted
Defense is part of WAR too, and he played almost twice as much as last year, so cumulative stats like WAR will be higher.
kellin
That was the only thing I noticed that could make sense.. more playing time increases WAR…
S_man_2014
Yes, but measuring defense can be quite subjective.
This one belongs to the Reds
I’ve never really found a defensive stat that really shows value. A lot of them do not take into account a guy’s range or ability to make heads up plays.
mlb1225
WAR overall is a subjective matter. There are two forms of the statistic. It’s not like other advanced statistics where there is one definitive way to quantify it. That can lead to lots of variance (ie. a 4.5 WAR player and a 5 WAR player are essentially worth the same). It’s best used for benchmarking. Like sub-1.0 is a bench player, 2.0-3.0 is a decent regular. 3.0-4.0 is an above average regular 4.0-5.0 is all-star, 5.0-6.0 top of the line caliber.
KyleT
“measuring defense can be quite subjective.”
Agree, for a few years now, Boston fans have been hating on Christian Vazquez’s defense, which the numbers didnt support. As soon as he got traded, it went to he was ‘pretty good overall defensively’.
He was subjectively terrible, got traded, and his defense improved.
mlb1225
@This One. Outs above average is probably the best, becaues it does take into account range. OAA for outfielders accounts for catch probability “which takes the distance an outfielder must go, the time he has to get there, and the direction he travels to put a percentage of catch likelihood on each individual batted ball”.
For infielders:
Outs Above Average for infielders takes the following factors into account.
• How far the fielder has to go to reach the ball (“the intercept point”).
• How much time he has to get there.
• How far he then is from the base the runner is heading to.
• On force plays, how fast the batter is, on average. (A runner’s average Sprint Speed is used in the calculation, rather than his Sprint Speed on that particular play. For new players with no data, a league-average — 27 ft/sec — score is used; once the player qualifies for the leaderboard, all of his previous plays are re-run.)
This is from MLB Glossary. OAA is probably my favorite, because it takes quantifiable measurements to come to a number.
KyleT
OOA is very subjective. Range, Arm, Glove, etc. Someone has to combine all those attributes into one number. Is the guy with the better range better or is it the guy with the better glove, or maybe the strong arm, etc.
Whereas for hitters: Did the ball go over the fence? Its a homerun. Did a guy score when you hit the ball? Then its an RBI. Much more straight forward numbers. How people interpret those numbers are subjective, but, the core numbers arent.
smuzqwpdmx
The fact that Varsho is fast isn’t subjective, and that’s why his outfield defense is good. Not that all fast outfielders are good, but they are unless they’re particularly bad at something else.
JoeBrady
He was subjectively terrible, got traded, and his defense improved.
==================================
In NY, the fans don’t like you unless you win a WS.
In Boston, they don’t you until you’ve been traded.
CoachBlake
Because he made the transition to OF from catcher. He’s an elite level defender in the grass. Great get by the Jays, wish the Astros would have traded for him.
its_happening
Wish the Astros did too, because Varsho showed he’s simply a 4th outfielder and the Diamondbacks won the deal hands down. As a coach you should know what is wrong with Varsho and be able to dissect his swing before wrongfully declaring the Jays won the deal.
flamingbagofpoop
More PA/defensive innings and his offense was better this year compared to his peers (offense was down league wide) 99 wRC+ in 2021, 106 in 2022.
vincej138
Gurriel too
NoSaint
I’m stuck on the 401 in a blizzard and I’m reading this. The trifecta would be for the motor to conk out.
BucksPackersBrewersWow!
Stay safe. I’m staying inside in Richmond Hill.
BuJoBi
In East York, been shoveling all day
DarkSide830
Rich Hill???
zack novotny
I’m in Phoenix, It’s 71 degrees here
DanielDannyDano
Massive overpay for the Blue Jays
Ted
Prospects are *never* worth as much as fans think they are.
BuJoBi
Not really
Bobby smac9
Both teams got value. It took Moreno to make this deal happen. Not surprising.
stroh
Overpay by Blue Jays. Whatever.
Dbacks44
FINALLY!!!!!! FANTASTIC MOVE! KEEPING MCCARTHY AS WELL! MORENO IS GOING TO BE A BEAST. KELLY WILL BE TRADED THIS WEEK
vincej138
Yes! woulda like to have it been Thomas, but adding Gurriel makes it worth it. I think Kelly may stay for a bit until Moreno gets confy with the rotation.
Dbacks44
Yeah no way we get that lucky lol. But Thomas can play and save runs on defense. you add Gurriel and Moreno in the middle of that lineup with Mccarthy marte walker Rojas and a surging Rivera you have a young beast team. Want one more bullpen and one veteran pitcher and we are good!
vincej138
Im still not sold on Rojas at 3rd. Still like to see a move there and have Rojas back super utility.
kidbryant
You list all those players and leave out the DBacks #1 player in Corbin Carroll???
Dbacks44
Was talking the middle of the lineup man. I see corbin as a number 2 hitter right now. Not sure about his power yet. He will definitely be a 300 hitter with 20 hrs. But we were lacking a catcher and a right handed power hitter besides walker.
sufferforsnakes
Agree on McCarthy, but I’d be surprised if they trade Kelly. Not much trade value, in my opinion.
hammertime510
Blue jays and Braves World Series ?
Curly Is A Dumb Stooge
LOL
fre5hwind
Exaggerated trade
Stu Macher’s burner
Really good trade for my snakes. Gonna miss varsho a lot though
Jays fan. 3
You can have him back!! Stupid reactionary trade by Atkins.
Stealing Signs
Yeah, a reactionary trade that’s been in the works since July ♀️
Manfred’s playing with the balls
Moreno and Lourdes for Varsho?
There has to be more to the trade.
Dbacks are moving up in the world. SF is headed for 4th place in the NL west next year.
Both Bay Area teams have a long rebuild ahead
Digdugler
Never has a team sold higher than the Diamondbacks on Varsho.
Bo Hart's Biggest Fan
A win-win and win now/near future trade for both teams.
you don’t see these often.
kgcubs
Aloha folks, wow! I was hoping the Cubs would target Kirk or Moreno, be willing to let go of Happ/Stroman as they only have a year left. As well as Madrigal and some prospects. Well, Stroman can opt out after next year, thus I say he’s only under control through 2023 if he opts out. Good deal for both teams. Mahalo
Moonlight Graham
Moreno seems like a steep price on his own, but then Lourdes, too? Maybe there’s more to the deal.
I really wanted the Jays to get McCarthy. He’s an exciting player with nice speed.
TheRickestRick
Yeah
I’m kinda hoping for something more coming back to TO as well.
Jays fan. 3
Last of I wanted from dbacks too
Tacoshells
Why would the d bags do this !!! Hopefully this is a massive return !!!!
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
It is! Moreno AND Gurriel? That’s crazy! This made them A LOT better.
Arnoldpsufan
Seems like the dbacks got the best of this.
thickiedon
Damn, I wish Houston would’ve traded for Varsho rather than resigning Brantley. Maybe Urquidy, Diaz and Barber
jjd002
I think they land Reynolds
jdgoat
Finally. I prefer this so much more than giving up Tiedemann for Reynolds. Sucks to see Gurriel go though he was a fun guy to watch even if he was pretty streaky.
Digdugler
Neither trade was necessary, especially after the KK signing. You get a defense first OF for Moreno and Gurriel. Sure gold glove defense! but I would rather have Moreno or get someone better for Moreno.
bigfatandugly
i think the LH bat, the power numbers and the years of control had a bit to do w the move. i’m a jays fan and i like it
kidbryant
Varsho had 27 HR in his first full time season. How is that considered a defense first guy?
Moonlight Graham
What @bigfatandugly said. Plus, Varsho pulled the ball 56% of the time last year, so he’ll likely benefit significantly from the shift ban. Plus, in that lineup, with Springer, Vladdy and Bichette, hitting around him, he’ll be in a better position to produce.
.260 avg, .330 OBP, 30 HR isn’t out of the question.
Also, the less he plays catcher, the fresher his body will be, and the more that can also boost his hitting.
Stealing Signs
“Neither trade was necessary,”
Until KK or Springer get injured & then y’all be crying we didn’t have anyone decent to replace them. Let me remind you that it was only a few years ago that Travis Snider was considered untouchable by many.
smuzqwpdmx
As much as I dislike the trade, I’m glad it was Moreno instead of Kirk. We know Kirk can play at an all-star / silver slugger level and he’s only a year older than Moreno.
Jays_Jen
Plus Manoah will love that Kirky is still a Jay!
SupremeZeus
Won’t know for several years who won this trade, but right now looks pretty good for the snakes.
DongMaster
Damn. Really hoped the Yanks would be able to get him. Something like hicks and Donaldson for Varsho. Can’t believe Cashman didn’t do this.
Never Remember
You must be joking. I hope.
Led Hoyer
I think yanks definitely have to throw in Clint Frazier to make that work.
TheRickestRick
They can’t throw in Clint.
Too much upside.
Stealing Signs
LMAO you really think Hicks & Donaldson would bring back that kind of value?
29 teams had the chance to trade for Donaldson. Only one GM was dumb enough to do so.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
The only way a team takes Donaldson is if the Yankees will take Bauer in return
getrealgone2
Snakes with the good move
Ma4170
Not as fan of either but it seems like AZ did really well on this one considering how high scouts are on Moreno
Ronk325
The Dbacks just took the Blue Jays to the cleaners. What a wildly lopsided trade
Stealing Signs
Really? You can tell the future? I wish Moreno the best but there’s no way of knowing whether he’ll live up to the potential.
Ronk325
A bit defensive, don’t you think? Some of us like to share our opinions on things and not sit on the fence. I think this is an overpay because Moreno is a valuable asset and Gurriel is a proven big leaguer. If the Blue Jays were getting Corbin Carroll in this deal, I’d say they did well. Giving up all of that for Varsho is insane
brazzy07
Varsho is an insanely talented player. I think you’re severely underestimating what he bring to the table
Ronk325
Varsho is an elite defensive player but only a slightly above average hitter. It seems like the Dbacks are wisely selling high. On the flip side, the Blue Jays are selling low on Gurriel and Moreno to an extent. The Dbacks will get the most value out of this trade in the long run and it won’t be particularly close
RonDarlingShouldntBeInTheHallOfFame
Wow!! The Dbacks are looking better and better! As of now, they look like they could compete for a WC..
30 Parks
Jays are having a strong off-season. I like the presence each of Mattingly, Bassitt, and Varsho will bring to the Jays in their respective roles.
zack novotny
As a dbacks fan, this is horrible.
kearnest
as a dbacks fan, i think this is fantastic!
OilCanLloyd
Good players going to DBacks. Moreno should become a solid player. Lourdes is an average outfielder. And Varsho is the everyday LH bat the Jays have needed. Jays still have one of the best tandems at catching.
I also noticed the Jays changed the clubhouse moving Teoscar and Lourdes. No more partying at the end of the dugout.
Russelmysanchez21
The jays must be getting more back no?? Why did atkins go out of his way to make 2023 jays worse and our future worse?
jdgoat
Varsho would have led the Blue Jays position players in fWAR in 2022… I would’t say we’re worse in 2023.
TheRickestRick
If the “goat” likes this trade
And most other Jays fans don’t like it
I don’t know what too make of it!
positively_broad_st
It’s not an overpay for Varsho since he was in high demand on the trade market as a centerfielder, which are in short supply. This centerfielder can also catch, so Varsho can be an everyday outfielder that also serves as an emergency catcher. Good deal for both sides if Moreno pans out as projected…
ShooterMcGavin
What a fleece. Jays just gave up a top 10 prospect in baseball and a proven everyday OF. Nice trade for the D’Backs.
Russelmysanchez21
Yup…. Atkins really goes out of his way to poop on the team. I even really like Varsho…. But my god this is a terribly one sided trade … how is it one sided in Arizona value for both 2023 and future value? Moreno plus gurriel will have more war in 2023 than Varsho…. And long term Moreno has more value than Varsho::::: soooooooooooo… wtf seriously
Stealing Signs
Varsho is a proven major leaguer, Moreno is a prospect who may or may not live up to the hype.
roiste
Gurriel is only “proven” in that he’s proven he isn’t any good lmao, a league average bat with terrible defense is a pretty mediocre player. Both teams did well here
Still in talks
Being a top 10 prospect doesn’t automatically mean success.
Look at what Miami got when they had their fire sale. From all the prospects they got, only one really hit.
TennVol
As a Jays fan I am very depressed. I have watched Moreno play multiple times and he reminds me alot of Pudge Rodriguez. Cat quick, great arm, very athletic, high average guy who has not yet hit his power stroke, but you can see it coming. I believe he will be a perennial all-star at the position. I would never trade him for anything other than a young controllable outstanding pitcher, much less a slightly above average OF. What a train wreck.
Digdugler
awful trade, Atkins went way overboard in “improving the OF defense”.
Stealing Signs
A slightly above average OF? Have you checked his defensive metrics?
Jaysfansince92
Since when is 4.9 bWAR/4.6 fWAR only slightly above average? He was arguably the best defensive outfielder in the majors last year. His hitting also improved significantly after he stopped catching in mid June and starting playing full time in the Outfield (OPS was .706 in the first half and .793 in the 2nd half). Not having to worry about his defense at catcher gave him more time to focus on hitting.
He also seemed to get more comfortable at stealing bases as the year went on. He went 8 for 8 in SB in the last 28 days of the season. With the bigger bags next year and more time to focus on his hitting it wouldn’t be out of the question to see him put up a 30-30 year next year. In sept/Oct he hit 9 HR and had 8 SB.
dlw0906
Varsho is good but the Jays gave up too much. Think Arizona did better in the deal. Time will tell though.
OriolesMagic88
Someone call the Mounties, the Blue Jays just got robbed
LordD99
I see both D’back and Jays fans upset here. That means it was a good deal for both teams.
kearnest
lol this is so true tho
slider32
Jays win the trade simulator, while the D=Backs might win in the long run on the field. The thing is it won’t make much of a difference in either team in the standings.
abc123baseball
Exactly
angt222
Feels like a lopsided trade in favor of Arizona.
Wilmer the Thrillmer
The Dbacks got relevant in 20 minutes flat. Darsho is a very underrated, but the #7 prospect is baseball PLUS Gurriel? You gotta be kidding me!
Most people don’t realize the Gurriel brother played together for many years in Cuba and Japan since Junior was 16. No doubt a reunion in store here as well.
Jays fan. 3
This trade seems very reactionary for the jays after conforto signing and shatkins desire for a LH outfielder. The only guy on d backs I was hoping they didn’t trade for. Nice job selling high dbacks you have your catcher of future.
PhiladelphiaCollins
That’s the price of doing business. As for being reactionary of course it is take it or leave it. The guy fills a current need to win now
Troutahni
Great trade for both teams Everybody forgets that Moreno is still a prospect and hasn’t proven anything at the Big League level. Varsho and Springer in the OF is impressive. Varsho can also be their emergency Catcher. Varsho’s salary is controlled by arbitration. They save money by jettisoning of Teoscar Hernandez and Lourdes Gurriel Jr. in order to reduce payroll for future Guerrero and Bichette contracts. C and DH is taken care of by rostering Jansen and Kirk.
The trade and the Teoscar trade should be looked at as a 3-team deal and ignore the different opinions of who won or lost this trade.
I think this is a big Win-Win for both teams.
Troutahni
Rostering Varsho was a luxury for the Diamondbacks with their plethora of Lefthanded Outfielders. Trading Varsho gives them a future and present starting Catcher in Moreno. Carson Kelly can still DH or be traded for another valuable piece. Lourdes is improving every season, even if his Home Run power is average, he hits for batting average. The Diamondbacks should be happy with their front office. They did really well today.
Stealing Signs
Bo won’t be extended. Don’t be surprised if he’s traded sooner rather than later.
Doug
Great deal for the DBacks. Two guys who might both be better than the .235 hitting Varsho.
Stealing Signs
Seriously? You;re using batting average to gauge the trade?
scottaz
Dbacks fan perspective…it would have hurt to trade any of our top 4 left handed hitting CF, though it had to be done this year or next. Personally, I wish it would have been Thomas or McCarthy instead.
We got the right handed OF bat we needed to balance team lefthandedness, in Gurriel, and Moreno is a nice prospect throw in who MIGHT be the future catcher we need. We’ll see how he develops. Prospects are completely unpredictable.
Angels & NL West
scottaz, you are one of the most knowledgeable and reasonable D-backs fans on this site. And I agree with 99% of your comments. That said, imo, Baseball America’s #3 prospect, a prospect ranked higher than Corbin Carroll, is more than “a nice prospect throw-in”. Seems like a great MLB ready, high ceiling acquisition by the D-backs at a position of need.
scottaz
Angels & NLW
I’m just cautious about assuming prospects will live up to hype, although really Top prospects often do.
My real point though was that everyone on the Jays fan base was looking at this trade as Varsho for Moreno with Gurriel thrown in. But the Dbacks had the greater need to correct the extreme lefthandedness problem, so from the Dbacks perspective the trade was Varsho for Gurriel with Moreno thrown in
Foxxfire
Finally, the deal I’ve been waiting for. Any Jays fan that doesn’t like this deal, talk to me in a year. Moreno is not too much. I’d have included Barriera over Gurriel, even, and the only propsect we lose is Gabriel. Outstanding deal. Varsho’s ability to play C in a pinch even compliments keeping Kirk with his DH days.
Though I’m interested in what is going to be done about replacing Lourdes, if anything. Don’t want to go TOO run preventiony,.
BooJays33
Varsho replaces Lourdes. The price for upgrading from Lourdes to Varsho is Moreno. He’s only got a year left before free agency anyhow
Foxxfire
Right but Kiermaier replaced Springer who will be replacing Teo, essentially. Are we going with Whitt/Kiermaier?
A nice 1 year signing of someone like Conforto could solve that nicely. I;d need to give that a bit of thought though.
ALuepke12
From left to right I’d imagine it’ll be something like: Varsho, KK, Springer
With Whit, Biggio and likely one other utility/backup type for the outfield. Plus Espinal on the bench as well.
Now that I’ve typed that out, I feel there has to be more on the horizon.
Foxxfire
Varsho is prime Kiermaier defense, he should play every game he can in CF. Whitt is no worse defensively than Teo , Springer or Lourdes; and Kiermaier, especially in a corner OF; would still be well above average.
My concern translates now to losing Teo and Lourdes’ offense. Can we handle it? I’m sure we can, and I love this outfield infinitely more than before, but I do wonder if someone will be done, or we will do the biggio/merrifield/kiermaier rotation type thing Am i forgetting someone?
Jaysfan1981
Toronto went from 10/10 offense with a 6/10 defense to 9/10 offense and 8/10 Defense
jensan
Sign Profar, to be the Utility OF. War projection for Gurriel and Moreno totals 2.5 War for 2023, Varsho- 3.9 War. Jays save monies about $5 Million
PhiladelphiaCollins
So that works out to 17/20 versus 16/20
BlueJ’sAllDay
Excellent move by the Jays! As a guy who loves watching great defense on a nightly basis, I’m thrilled to not have to watch Gurriel and Teo look lost every night trying to track fly balls. Easily two of the worst in the league. What a huge improvement we’ve made for our pitchers. I can tell you they’re all celebrating tonight!
stubby66
I get that Varsho is a good outfielder but he can catch too some I think the Blue Jays could also still trade Jansen for more help if they really wanted to. If they wanted to trade him for a really good 4th or 5th starter. Then sign a defensive type catcher at league minimum simply because Varsho could handle maybe 25 to 30 games behind the plate if the Jays take advantage of these catchers value.
Foxxfire
I actually think Jansen is underrated and we don’t want to turn a position of great strength into weakness. Kirk does not play C as often as most, and Varsho’s ability to play C could even save us a roster spot, but I would not deal Jansen now.
Stealing Signs
Yeah, it does kind of feel like something else might be in the works with them adding Gurriel too.
Saint Nick
Great trade for both teams.
OilCanLloyd
This reminds me of the Donaldson trade when it took Lawrie to make the trade happen. I think that kind of worked out for the Jays.
Digdugler
I think Varsho is the Lawrie in this scenario?
BuJoBi
I like this trade but would have preferred if we got a another piece from the dbacks in this deal. Gurriel is a potential bounce back candidate heading to free agency so I expected a big season from him. But Varsho is a beast, he fits perfectly with what we need/want, and has some years of control, so overall I can live with this deal.
crshbng
I agree. Would have been nice to get a mid prospect back, but its only 1 year of Gurriel. Outfield defense is much improved. Still need a fourth outfielder.
BuJoBi
I agree we need to add another outfielder, I think a bat first guy who can fill in at dh also. We definitely aren’t done, this move shows we are all in on win-now mode
crshbng
Absolutely, even though the market is thin, there are bats available. Still one spot open on the 40 man roster right now. Can see some minor league deals for depth coming too.
Gwynning
The Jays got Snaked! Nice come-up, Zona. NLW looking fun for awhile!
Steve(shs22)
Varsho is a stud but seems like a lot to give up for him….
BashBroJoe
Do the d backs flip Lourdes now or do they trust him at Short for the year?
yankeefan23
As a Yankee fan, I love this trade! Way to go, Blue Jays!! LMAO!!
LordD99
I was hoping Varsho to the Yankees for LF, but me fears grow with each refresh of MLBTR today that it’s going to be a Hicks/Cabrera platoon!
GB85
We’ll be saying the same thing to you about Judge in a few years when he’s a full time DH and can barely walk to first!
Shoguneye
We missed the boat on the Donaldson trade so this is playing catchup. I suppose if they coulda added Clint Frazier somehow we would’ve come out winners.
Enjoy your million / inning Rodon signing.
darkmanx
We love it too because with your pathetic offence outside of Judge anything hit to our outfielders is an auto out.
Digdugler
I think we are overrating defense a bit here. Like Zimmer is a great defensive outfielder. If Varsho ‘s power takes even a slight hit, he will be Zimmer. Okay maybe not as bad as Zimmer offensively, but Varsho is not a good hitter (league average OPS be damned)
LFGMets (Metsin7)
Blue Jays way overpaid
scissormetimbers
This reminds me of the Gobert trade to Minnesota
LFGMets (Metsin7)
agreed
DarkSide830
This makes the KK signing look better, but I’m not sure TOR made out well here.
Digdugler
How does it make the KK deal look better? If anything it makes it worse as the offense got even worse now.
jdgoat
How did the offense get worse?
Digdugler
Gurriel career 117 OPS+ swapped for Varsho career 103 OPS+. But they also lost Teoscar career 121 OPS+ and replaced with Kiermaier 98 OPS+
jdgoat
Right I wasn’t including Hernandez
DogDays2
It truly amazes me that people gauge a trade on ops from previous year or career ops for a young player.
Varsho is 26, seems that the Blue Jays think there might be growth there.
DarkSide830
Because he’s not starting now. I still don’t think it was a good move, but he’s a much better OF4 than OF3.
Lyman Bostock
I only think it was a decent move because they’re in win now mode. I see Varsho as a Wil Myers. Which means for a few years he’ll be a good defensive outfielder with some power and speed. He’ll put up some WAR. But long term these guys who can’t make decent contact always seem to fade early.
But Toronto has a legitimate chance this year, so why not move the needle forward if you can? They did trade from a position of strength and they did need that lefty OF bat.
BlueJ’sAllDay
Pitching and defense wins championships! We’re way better now. We’ll be pushing 100 wins this year I’m sure of it.
soxbigdog
Son of a major leaguer so I think it’s mandatory that he plays for the Blue Jays
scottaz
Just so all you Jays fans know…Gurriel is Not a Dbacks starter. The starting OF is all left handed hitting Corbin Carroll. Alek Thomas and Jake McCarthy. Gurriel and Lewis, the right handed hitting backup OF will play against left handed pitching.
OilCanLloyd
Lourdes has time at SS and 1st.
DarkSide830
and past experience at 2B and 3B. They will find a spot for him.
Jaysfansince92
Not sure if they want to try that. Jays took him out of the infield after he developed the yips and couldn’t make the throw to 1st consistently. It’s been a few years so maybe he is over it, but fwiw he hasn’t played either position since that I am aware of.
sufferforsnakes
I’m betting he starts.
soxbigdog
Son of a major leaguer, so I think it’s mandatory Varsho plays for the Blue Jays
Hired Gun 23
I have a feeling that the D-Backs are gonna be a scrappy bunch in 2023. My guess is an 82-79 record…
coldbeer
Those beers are icy cold this time of year!! What a great trade for both clubs. Jays get the one big piece they were missing to officially enter contender status. Arizona is going to love Moreno. He’s a true blue chip prospect on the verge of breaking out in the show. Well done both sides, an early Xmas gift for us all!!! Cheers!!
Digdugler
The Jays lost Teoscar and Gurriel and added KK and Varsho. Not sure how thats the one big piece.
coldbeer
I think you should put the beer can down and your reading glasses on and try again! Merry Christmas!!
Dustyslambchops23
So I guess the jays really prioritized breaking up the end of the dugout.
Unsure about the trade, feels like Moreno could have/should have brought back more, or just held on to.
Best Screenname Ever
Hard to imagine Moreno getting less tor you than being a throw-in for a .300 OBP outfielder. Looking forward to playing the Blue Jays with their revamped outfield. Who hits 9th for you? Varsho or Kiermaier?
MPrck
WOW, whose that G.M in Toronto ? He picked a pocket there. Lost a attitude, and picked up a piece to build around. I’m hoping Detroit can get Ohtani next year, he checks off all the boxes, Detroit is walking on D.F.A. highway this winter.
slider32
Trades can be the best way of upgrading your team, the problem is when a GM settles for his 2nd or 3rd choice. This what the Jays did today! All an all it is teams moving some of the players to hopefully make them better. Sometimes it is better to bite the bullet rather make a move.. The outfield position is weaker than the infield these days.
MPrck
When you hit 27 home runs in the dead ball era, you have to be excited if your in
Toronto. He hit 10 more than Detroit’s best last year, and he steals bases. Pretty sweet deal, you have to give to get.
WaiverWire
Varsho = Scooter Gennett
1 good year I bet. Jays make another horrendous trade.
whogg72
Merry Christmas to us! Solid move. Even if Moreno comes out as he futures, we have 4 years of Varsho (C and OF)..
Russelmysanchez21
With his 300 (barely obp)… he’s just a left handed grichuk with better defence right ?… cause that’s what he sure seems like
jimmertee
Wow, Moreno has a shot at being an elite player both as a catcher and hitter. He has the minimum MLB catching tools right now and his bat will play well in the big leagues. It remains to be seen if he can improve his catching to the elite level. He has a great arm. I don’t like losing him for a defensive outfielder who can hit bombs. Oh wait, they upgraded Hernandez and it cost them Moreno and Gurriel Jr. Yikes.
Longterm the d-backs win this deal all the way. Merry Christmas Arizona.
I would have preferred the BlueJays trading Kirk.
Lyman Bostock
Varsho is Wil Myers 2.0
Some years, that’s going to be a very good thing.
Troutahni
The Blue Jays put the NY Yankees and the rest of the AL East on notice today. Cashman probably choked on his pancakes this morning.
The Diamondbacks put the San Francisco Giants and the Colorado Rockies on notice today. There is a new Deputy in town in the NL West and they will lay claim to third place in the NL West.
Third place in the NL West is the ultimate consolation prize. It could be three years before we see any team win the NL West other than San Diego or Los Angeles.
hoof hearted
Wow.
Anyone realize that Varsho has played at catcher?
Lyman Bostock
Yeah only because of my dynasty league. Catching prospects who steal bases always catch your attention .
bravesfan
Blue jays get a little worse in this deal, Arizona gets a little better… that’s gonna be my long term projection of this trade
desertdawg
Being a D’Backs fan, hate to see Varsho go. Good attitude in clubhouse, his dad was in the league playing for the Phillies, Cubs. Like Varsho’s power and glove plus good speed on the bases. Catching is a work in progress, needs work framing pitches and blocking pitches. He was a real joy to watch in the outfield definitely possible GG in the future. Hits righthanders well, has a hard time with the lefties. I know the D’backs were looking to get a young catcher, a quality 3rd baseman, and definitely help in the bullpen especially a closer. So, I think there is a possible trade for a closer in the offing, maybe a Liam Hendrick has been talked about. So really will miss Varsho, but happy D’backs got a young catcher.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Bold move for snakes to sell high on Varsho rather than low on Thomas. Moreno is such a good get. Fair deal but I like it especially for Arizona. Wow!
Saint Nick
Blue Jays moving into the top 10 preseason rankings after this move.
1. Mets
2. Astros
3. Yankees
4. Padres
5. Dodgers
6. Phillies
7. Cardinals
8. Braves
9. Mariners
10. Blue Jays
MLB Top 100 Commenter
How do you rank Cardinals above Atlanta? Just because of their division?
Saint Nick
Better all around team plus division, yeah.
Henry Silvestre
I am just glad Varsho is out of AZ.. love him, hated playing vs him.. maybe the best defensive OF with serious power from the leftside and C to boot… good get for the Jays and Great trade by AZ.. Win/Win
wrigley
I was surprised they traded Moreno. Varsho’s a great return. It feels like Toronto overpaid.
Best Screenname Ever
Ya think?
highheat
Holy Hell were the first words to mind.
tigerfan1968
I love Moreno…kid really looked comfortable at the plate…. Joni Mitchell…Don’t it always seem to go…you don’t know what you’ve got till its gone… If this trade does not work out, Adkins is leaving in a big yellow taxi…
Digdugler
They keep extending Atkins for some reason
Rooty007
Wow interesting trade….with Gurriel and Teoscar gone it really changes the chemistry in the dugout. Hopefully Varsho can produce for the Jays. They will definitely need to get one more legit outfielder.
Bright Side
Teoscar was horrible. At least if you look at it from this angle, take solace that Varsho was a big upgrade.
Bright Side
Wow. What a stupid deal the Jays just made. Never liked Varsho. He’s an elite defender at LF, but isn’t a good hitter. Yes, 27 HRs does not mean you’re a good hitter. I call the trade dumb for the same reason others have posted here. Vasho isn’t worth an elite catching prospect.
Poster formerly known as . . .
That not-good hitter Varsho had a better AB/HR than Vlad Jr., Teoscar, Chapman and Springer. Also better than Bryan Reynolds, Rafael Devers and Jose Ramirez.
Jaysfan1981
Well Highheat, you were right. Varsho is worth Moreno plus. I’m honestly surprised it took Gurriel JR as well.
Although now that it’s over, Happy to have Varsho on board
highheat
@Jaysfan, if you’re going by BBTV it’s technically an overpay by AZ. I’m still very happy with this trade, though.
I didn’t think anybody was going to have a similar evaluation to Hazen before the ASB, and I suspect Hazen might have “left some money on the table” in order to facilitate getting Moreno early enough for him to work through Spring Training with the team.
Gurriel Jr. is a solid get as well; his (and Moreno’s) high-contact hitting style should play well behind all of the speed. It also helps that he’s not controlled for a large amount of time, because that gives Kristian Robinson some time to settle back in when his probation is up.
I’ve already spoken enough about Varsho, but I firmly believe that you guys are getting a 4-5 WAR OF. I hope y’all enjoy watching him play!
Jaysfan1981
Hope this turns into win win, Varsho becomes an elite bat and glove, as well as the same for Moreno
Jaysfansince92
Definitely a win-win. I enjoyed getting your views on a possible trade in previous exchanges. I liked Varsho before, but hearing you talk about him I was even higher on him and was really hoping they could figure something out.
Never thought about including Lourdes in the deal since he only has 1 year of control left. Maybe he will like it there and re-sign. He has the potential to be really good. When he gets hot he can carry a lineup. He just hasn’t had a year where he put it all together for the entire year yet.
highheat
The discussions were fun while they lasted; I’m just relieved that I don’t have to hear illogical trade proposals from every fanbase anymore (like the one dude saying Gleyber Torres was worth Varsho straight up), and I’m sure y’all feel the same lol.
I’m glad that y’all found the information helpful; I wasn’t trying to pee in anyone’s cheerios, but everybody had kind of unrealistic expectations for a while. Trades are miserable when you don’t get what you think your guy is worth (can vouch from the Goldschmidt trade; don’t like that feeling).
It was nice having objective discussions with everyone, and I’m glad most either think that it was a reasonable trade or that their side got ripped off lol.
I doubt Gurriel gets extended, though. There’s no way that the DBacks were just letting Robinson sit around while he was waiting for a work visa.
Especially not after Carroll/Lawlar spent their rehab time filling in holes in their game knowledge by sitting behind home plate and picking our advance scout’s brain (and nothing was physically wrong with Robinson, so he could’ve been working on any number of mechanical tweaks to better take advantage of his tools).
I’m truthfully curious on what the team has had him working on, because they have no choice but to push him aggressively once he comes off of the Restricted List. Gurriel Jr. just fills that immediate need for a RHH to limit the number of LHP PAs Carroll/Smith/Thomas receive (and he is a much better option/fit than any of Drury/Longoria/Turner).
I legitimately think the only way the DBacks could have done a better job during this offseason was if they had been the ones to sign Swanson. But that was never going to happen, so I’m quite happy with where the roster stands for now (offloading Bumgarner is too big of an ask, but sadly his rotation spot is more valuable than he is at this point).
Jaysfan1981
Lourdes came up as a SS, looked for real but 2 weeks later got the Yips. Believe we tried him at 3rd and a few innings at 3rd which resulted in him again not being able to hit the chest of anyone he was throwing to.
It took away from his bat a little bit at digest, young, frustrated, it was understandable.
He was awful in LF his first go around there, but since has been passable because of ironically his ARM lol. He’s got a bloody cannon out there, seems to be able to enjoy and excel throwing 150 feet instead of just 90ish. Won him a GG in left and even though his routes are not ideal. He’s not gonna lose you the game throwing his arms up bot knowing where the ball is.
He can catch fire anytime, he’ll very much produce in all aspects when he’s on, not gonna hit 40 or even 30 but 25 HR IS expected by Jays fans, he just needs to rediscover his power. His bat to ball is pretty good but it looks like he’s trying not to strike out and just hits it the other way more often than not
If he sells out and pulls non stop he could hit 30 no problem. He can backup 1st on the regular as well. You’ll probably flip him at the deadline to a contender (back to the Jays???? Lol) because most say he’s a FA after 2023, but if you look at other reputable pages it shows he’s not a FA till after 2024 because Arb eligibility????
Might wanna check into that for your own edification
Pleasure talking ball with knowledgeable fans. Keep in touch, don’t be a stranger. I’ll pop into more AZ threads just because this has been great conversation
Jaysfan1981
Hey, uhhh… just spitballing.
Let’s say Orelvis Martinez just lights up spring training again this year, makes himself a legitimate part of the Jays SS conversation
#1. How do you feel about Bichette in AZ.
#2. How much do you think Hazen would give up.
I think a MAJOR peice from the Roster would be up for grabs, and a few other MAJOR prospects. SP would need to be headlining.
What say you Highheat? You were pretty much spot on the Moreno Value. What’s BO get from AZ if you’re in so much need of a shortstop
Bonus question.
How do you feel about an Orelvis Martinez trade if the Jays FO is hell bent on keeping Bichette
highheat
I’ll be the first to tell you that I’m not some GM-whisperer lol, but I really don’t see the DBacks dealing for either of Bichette or Martinez. I didn’t say we NEED a SS, it was more of a figurative/hyperbolic way to say that going out and getting a premier FA that fit the team identity to a T (reasonably high contact bat, strong baserunning, and strong defense) was the only way that I saw this offseason as any better.
The only DBacks players not under team control for at least the next three seasons are: Ahmed, Bumgarner, Castro, Gurriel Jr., Kelly, Melancon, and Walker, and there are replacements in the system just reaching or already at AAA for pretty much every one of those vacated positions. It’s not elite depth like the Dodgers have had in recent years, but Hazen has painstakingly built up a decent amount of talent over the last 5 seasons. His first draft was probably his worst, but he still managed to get Varsho in that one and the inability to sign McLain hurt in ’18, but the compensation pick turned into Walston.
2024 is viewed as the start of the contention window, but with the true talent levels of: Carroll, Jameson, McCarthy, Moreno, Nelson, Pfaadt, and Thomas still being in question, there is a very outside shot of arriving a year early if they settle into MLB better than projected initially. There’s also a chance that Lawlar gets called up around the same time that Carroll did in ’22 to avoid losing Rookie eligibility, but still get some MLB PAs (that depends entirely on Lawlar’s progress, though).
Catcher was really the only position that Hazen wasn’t able to effectively address through drafting or trades to this point; so that was really the only place it made sense to give up legitimate talent for. For now the strategy is (and should continue to be) letting the guys settle into the MLB level and working through the inevitable growing pains, and maybe dealing some of the depth for arms with a wart or two for Strom to work with.
I’m surprised by how much I like the Gurriel Jr. fit the more I think about it; he really only needs to be the hitter he was last season to be tremendously valuable (I’m as big on taking walks and OBP as much as the next guy, but it’s kind of hard to go 1st to 3rd or score from 2nd on a BB). If he’s a bigger run producer it’s a bonus. I’m also holding out hope that working with Dave McKay will help him iron out some of his defensive issues (it’s not an accident that the DBacks have generally had strong defensive OFs), but he’s likely to see a good amount of time at DH regardless.
I doubt we see any significant DBacks talent dealt away for a couple of seasons, but I’m wrong far more often than I’m right about trades.
Thank goodness for the balanced schedules, 2 series a season against everyone. Sadly, I have pretty bad social anxiety, so I won’t be going to the ballpark; however, you should totally go check out the DBacks series when they’re in town, they’re a blast to watch play. Just go to the Bumgarner game for the Jay’s best shot at an easy win 😉
Best Screenname Ever
So it looks like the Blue Jays are cornering the market on left-handed outfielders who can’t get on base. Wow! They unloaded a guy who killed the Sox to Seattle for a fungible relief pitcher, and now they’ve traded all they have in their farm along with a starting outfielder for a guy whose probably even worse than Kiermaier at getting on base.
I remember last year when I suggested a trade of Nick Pivetta for Moreno and all the Toronto fans claimed that Moreno was some gold-chip trade piece who was going to land them some superstar. Looks like he was a throw-in for a guy who couldn’t make the Red Sox 26-man. Woulda been much better deal for Toronto straight up for Pivetta.
Chaim’s gotta be thankful that the path outta the cellar is being cleared so quickly.
jdgoat
They traded him for a 5 WAR player surely you dont actually believe this
Best Screenname Ever
Pivetta and Gurriel would get a good GM more than a 25 year old outfielder who can’t hit major league pitching. Varsho is a dime-a-dozen AAAA guy who can maintain a good OBP in the minors, but once he reaches the majors can’t hit the pitching.
Varsho’s first go-round in the majors his OBP dropped to .319 in 2021, from .372 in the minors. They gave him a full season in 2022 and he actually got *worse*, with a walk rate falling from .9.5% to 7.8%. When you’re a .235 hitter you can’t carry a sub-8% walk rate, along with a 3+/1 k/b rate, and play in the AL East.
Sorry mate, but you traded for a Dud. The D-Backs saw enough to let him go and somehow managed to strip the Blue Jays in this deal.
Looking forward to seeing Moreno in the NL West. Toronto fans will be crying about this for years to come.
jdgoat
He was 10% better than league average offensively last season… you’re just writing words based on a narrative you made up.
Best Screenname Ever
Not sure why I’d be writing words on a narrative someone else made up. But look at the numbers my friend. Here are the reverse OBP leaders in MLB for outfielders.
espn.com/mlb/stats/player/_/position/of/table/batt…
Kiermaier’s .281 OBP doesn’t make the list because he can’t play enough to get an official BA. Otherwise, he’s second-worst in MLB behind only Belli. 4 spots up is your 4th outfielder, Merrifield. And 4 spots up from him is your new acquisition Varsho. That’s 3 Blue Jays outfielders in the worst ten OBP’s among MLB outfielders. No other team is nearly as bad. To get there your team traded a middle of the order slugger, it’s best prospect and an outfield regular.
Good luck this year!
ericl
I don’t like including Moreno in this trade as a Jays fan, but trading him straight up for Pivetta would’ve been downright stupid.
MarkoRock68
Screen you must have started your Xmas drinking early. Your comments on Jays threads usually little more then nonsensical trolling but tonight you are outdoing the nonsense factor even for you. Still bitter you got so little for Bogaerts. Imagine what they could have gotten for him this time last years ( pre lockout ). The Jays gave up 2-3War on offense and gained 4-5War on defense. Net gain. Plus both the outfielders they lost were in their walk year.
PhiladelphiaCollins
If the Jays can somehow pawn off Kikuchi on someone that would be a real magic act and nice to see.
ericl
Definitely an overpay by the Jays. I understand you want to get better defensively, but trading Moreno & Gurriel Jr. for just Varsho isn’t the way to do it. Yes, Varsho is an upgrade defensively & has more power than Gurriel, but he isn’t the type of player you usually trade your top prospect for. I feel like there needed to be another piece headed to Toronto in this deal to justify trading both Moreno & Gurriel
Jal179
Completely agree. The offence lost from Lourdes and Teo is SIGNIFICANT.
Prevention in the bullpen needed to be the focus not OF defence.
Desparateyrade by Shatkins.
Jaysfan1981
Jays still have above average hitters in
Springer
Bichette
Vlad
Kirk
Jansen
Probably Varsho
You have Chapman who’s probably slightly above average and Merrifield who’s slightly above average
Only starter below average odds Keirmier and with the shift ban, he’s probably going to see a few extra hits
Jal179
Very upset Jays fan here. Moreno AVG and OBP skills are going to elite for years to come.
Shatkins infatuation with run prevention and LH OFers has gutted the Jays offence and farm system.
This is deal going to look very bad in a year or two. Varsho sample size is less than robust to part with the one true trade chip you had left to get them into elite contender status.
zuffahd
Keep moreno out of it and just vasho for Gurriel Jr.
zuffahd
This should be 1 for 1 trade Vasho for Gurriel Jr
Best Screenname Ever
I ‘liked’ your comment because it’s funny. Presumably Toronto’s GM didn’t think of not offering their top prospect in the deal or else your suggestion would have happened! LOL1
jdgoat
And on what earth does Arizona accept that deal? You don’t just get good players with control for one year rental coming off a down year.
RGR
Agreed 100% but imho Moreno alone would have been a fair return, why Gurriel was included is beyond me
GB85
Jays are in Win-Now mode, and Varsho moves the needle. Moreno is unproven at the major league level and Gurriel was a distraction. Have you seen Varsho play? Or his fWar? He makes this team instantly better.
Poster formerly known as . . .
“Moreno AVG and OBP skills are going to elite for years to come.”
You know this how?
That’s probably what Baseball America thought of Jesus Montero, the Yankee catching prospect, whom they ranked the #3 prospect in 2011. He ended up playing a total of 226 major league games in 5 years with a sub-par OPS+ of 94. Goodbye, Cooperstown.
Jal179
I’ve watched hundreds of Moreno’s at bats. This kid can flat out hit to all parts of the field and grades out positively on the defensive side.
He’s going to be very good for a long time.
towinagain
Having seen enough of Varsho against the Padres, he’s a stud. This may end up an even trade.
Poster formerly known as . . .
Great get for the Jays. Cashman whiffs again.
LetThereBeLux
Varsho is incrementally better. Worth it for the jays.
Skebinx
Once again the 2 stooges running the Blue Jays got ripped off. While would they trade Moreno?? Fire these clowns befor they do any more damage.
Best Screenname Ever
These are the Blue Jay fans we’ve come to know and love in the offseason. LOL!
rememberthecoop
Not to pick on you Darragh, but you would think a Canadian of all people would know it’s George Springer (not Spring). Also, this sentence – “For the Diamondbacks, they are acquiring one of the top catching prospects in the sport, regardless of position…” is wrong and clunky at best. Just remove the word “catching” and it makes more sense.
I never applied to be a writer here because Tim scared me away by stating that one of the requirements was well written articles, since you do not have editors. So, when I see him making repeated mistakes, it does make me smh.
revolver
You should cancel your paid subscription.
west212
That is a terrible trade for the Jays. Lourdes is by far the best player in the trade and I can’t begin to imagine what they were thinking♂️
Poster formerly known as . . .
Gurriel posted 2.2 bWAR and 1.0 fWAR in 2022. Varsho posted 4.9 bWAR and 4.6 fWAR.
Varsho was tied for second among outfielders in Defensive Runs Saved and led the league in Outs Above Average. His 27 home runs tied him with Juan Soto, Adolis Garcia and Bryan Reynolds in the 9th rank among outfielders. He was also tied with Rafael Devers, Matt Chapman and Nate Lowe.
Golfsucks
Wow!
Great trade for both. Toronto easily wins at this point in time. Moreno is a prospect & might take a couple of years to get going.
The hilarious part about this trade is that Varsho is a catcher as well.
He is a great outfielder. He is also a potential 30 homer guy and bats left handed.
Gourriel was going to be gone next year.
If Arizona took his full salary then this a huge win for Toronto.
That 6 million basically pays the first couple years of Varsho’s salary.
Toronto is still in the same need for another outfielder predicament after trading Gurriel.
There is probably more coming.
Exciting times.
Best Screenname Ever
Hard to see Toronto trading their top prospect and it mattering who pays $6MM of salary.
Digdugler
his full salary!!!!! $6M! Rogers is saved!
JJ Putz's Soul Patch
Would rather have seen the Snakes trade McCarthy. Vasho’s still young and proven himself at the major league level, while Thomas and Carroll both have higher ceilings.
Digdugler
This offseason is so confusing..
Lost: Teoscar, Gurriel and top prospect and MLB ready Moreno.
Gained: 32 year old Kevin Kiermaier and 26 year old Kevin Kiermaier.
Poster formerly known as . . .
That is confusing. How they acquired Kiermaier at 32 years of age as well as his 26-year-old self is baffling. Have the Jays discovered a worm hole in the clubhouse?
mikeyny
A lot of you are sleeping on Varsho. This guy is the complete package. His best years are coming. Future All Star. Moreno will be Carson Kelly 2.0
Augusto Barojas
@mikey Yeah, Varsho is going to be a beast in that lineup, and likely his best days are ahead. They gave up a lot but they are just stacked. Vlad, Springer, and Bichette can all rake vs RHP, as can Varsho. Jays are built to go deep into the postseason, have as good a chance as anybody. Maybe they are behind the Astros still, but not by much. Yankees, Jays, and Astros leaving the other AL teams in the dust.
RGR
What happens now if Springer gets injured? Oops did i say if!!! They need 4 outfielders with KK and Springer equally injury prone, so this still leaves them 1 short, Merrifield and Biggio are not every day outfielders, and both are likely needed in the infield, this really affects their depth!
Jaysfan1981
You could do WAY worse than Whit covering CF as now the projected 4th string CF. Yea we have 4 legit CF. ( Varsho KK Springer for at least 1 more season and same for Whit)
Whit can handle CF for 60ish games, which is what was actually expected before Varsho came along.
I REALLY hope Varsho just Murders baseballs and forces Keirmier out of CF and into retirement. It’s what’s best for Jays fans lol.
Oh yea back to your comment.
Biggio is just fine as the super utility. He sucked for a while because of injuries, but when he’s healthy he plays adequate D at alot of positions (5th OF – LF, some RF, 2nd and 1st backup roles even 3rd if asked) AND is an On Base machine
So to answer your question. If Springer gets injured for all 162……
Keirmier takes RF duties FT, Varsho in CF FT, (maybe vice versa because arm strength] Whit becomes the majority LF instead of starting 2nd, Biggio is still a 4th OF and backup 2nd to Espinal who’d now FT 2nd.
That’s also not mentioning a signing or trade to fill a RHH part time OF now (AJ pollack is a FA currently) or trade if injuries occured
nosake
Well, I USED to be a Blue Jays fan. Bye bye Lourdes, bye bye Teoscar, bye bye me.
LordD99
Your fandom was based on two flawed OFers?
Jaysfan1981
Don’t let the door hit you on the way out
Hopefully you bought good seats that will now be available for me to sit in and watch Varsho hit bombs
desertdawg
Looks like Hasen the GM for AZ has had an early Christmas present in Moreno. He has been talking about acquiring a good young catcher for the past year. Knew he would have to give up an outfielder, did not want to sign Contreas to a big contract, Still say he may pull off another trade for a 3rd baseman, Hazen has said he wanted to build a solid farm system to not only build the ML roster but also use in trade scenarios.
Cohens_Wallet
Nice pickup by the Jays. Varsho is going to be a really good and versatile player for a team with postseason aspirations. Not sure how some people sleep on the Jays, solid organization.
RGR
Agreed 100% about Varsho, but not about the price tbh…..am i the only one who was under the impression that catchers were more valuable than most positions, according to most teams at least?? To me Varsho and Moreno are nearly equal in terms of prospect levels, Moreno is very elite prospect (No 1 is some rankings) whilst Varsho is a former top prospect himself who’s taken the final step to the majors fairly successfully, so one for one i could see, and Varsho being a 3rd string catcher is a bonus, but why is Gurriel included unless its a salary drop by a supposedly unaffected by the luxury tax, contending team??
Ricetto
Gurriel sucked on defense. No hustle. Gotta think they moved him and Teo to get vladdy to be more serious in the dugout.
BStrowman
The shoe dropped!
leftykoufax
Wow,the Jay’s gave up alot of talent.I guess time will tell.
dsett75
I have a feeling that Carson Kelly will go to Detroit for Soto.
Busterking
Love this trade! We get to keep Kirk and Jansen, get rid of a dugout clown and in return a power left handed bat, good outfielder + catcher. (Moreno top prospect but you got to pay the piper)
Atkins is a genius!
OilCanLloyd
Yup! Prospects are cool. Parades are cooler!
Jaysfan1981
I miss Guzman. He was so fun for like 2 years
hiflew
Kinda cool that Daulton Varsho now gets to join all the other second generation Blue Jays. Gary Varsho was not as good a player as Vlad Sr, Dante Bichette, or Craig Biggio, but he was a very good pinch hitter that had a decent career.
hiflew
It does seem odd that Arizona solved their outfield glut by acquiring another outfielder. Getting the catcher was smart, but they still have more starting quality outfielders than space.
LordD99
They got a righty hitting OFer (they’re lefty heavy). I do wonder if maybe they plan to trade another one of their lefty OFers.
TennVol
Not overly thrilled with trading Moreno, but, the Jays should have a much improved overall defense this year. Keirmeir, Chapman, Vladdy, Varsho, Espinal and Springer in RF as well as both both Catchers are all above average or elite defenders. Only weak point defensively is SS and I have hopes he can improve.
Darthyen
Is this front office complete morons? Under no circumstance should they have traded Moreno. They should have dumped Jansen. Now not only do they weaken the offense further they weaken the catching too by keeping Jansen meaning they will use Jansen, the worst defender of the three.
Trading Gurriel is also a mistake not only for what he brings but you risk upsetting some of the chemistry. Many reports have come out about Gurriel Jr. being like the guy that gets after other guys for slacking/not being professional (can’t prove it just going by the reports from others that are not Rogers media). This may also effect Vladdy but that’s the life of playing baseball.
I Want to Believe
I feel like the Jays should have just resigned Tapia or someone like Tyler Naquin. Varsho is definitely an upgrade, but for a top prospect like that? You gotta cash those in better than that. Perhaps this should have been a three team deal….
leftcoaster
Varsho was the Diamondbacks #1 prospect just a couple years ago and is a proven commodity. The Jays know what they’re doing.
kenly0
Somehow the D backs get the 2 best players in the trade. Varsho is a nice 4th OF with more years of control.
Poster formerly known as . . .
Over the past two seasons, Varsho is credited with 6.9 fWAR to Gurriel’s 2.8 fWAR.
If the D-backs got a better player than Varsho, it wasn’t Gurriel.
Moreno might prove to be the best player, but it remains to be seen.
Back in 2017, Yankee fans thought Gary Sanchez might be Mike Piazza 2.0. Turns out, he wasn’t.
Best Screenname Ever
Exactly. Toronto has Springer and 3 fourth outfielders in Keirmaier, Varsho and Merrifield, all 3 of whom are in the bottom 10 major league outfilelders in OBP. That lineup has gotten a lot less scary this offseason. Lot of easy outs.
Projected Standings AL East,, December 23, 2022
Yankees
Rays
Orioles
Red Sox
Bue Jays
Poster formerly known as . . .
MLB.com’s Anthony Castrovince ranked the Jays the 4th-best offense in the majors when they still had Gurriel, whose OPS+ was just four points higher than Varsho’s, and Varsho greatly improves the outfield defense.
mlb.com/news/best-mlb-lineups-in-2023-predictions
I think you should avoid putting money on your projected standings.
Best Screenname Ever
ESPN has graded this trade. espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/34978963/2022-23-m…
Arizona gets an ‘A’ not surprisingly given how one-sided the deal is. Toronto gets a ‘C’, which is generous but I think they error on the side of generosity wihen dealing with clubs, not to make enemies by making teams look stupid. Varsho is the worst player in the trade, though because of his years of control he’s got as much or more value than Gurriel. But he’s still a 4th outfielder playing in the AL East. Sox this year got Yoshida, a huge upgrade on Varsho, without giving up their farm system to do it.
Poster formerly known as . . .
David Shoenfield grades the trade. Big deal. He predicted the Jays’ record in 2021 would be 80-82. It was 91-71. He predicted the Red Sox’ record would be 79-83. It was 92-70. He predicted the Rays’ record would be 86-76. It was 100-62.
You’re calling Varsho a fourth outfielder when he ranked 8th in fWAR among qualified outfielders:
fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=of&stats=bat…
I mean, if you want to feel depressed, don’t let me stop you, bro. But I can tell you of two Yankee catchers who were supposed to be all that and weren’t: Gary Sanchez most recently, and before him, Jesus Montero, whom Baseball America ranked the #3 prospect. Montero was a complete bust.
Moreno might turn out to be Johnny Bench, but he’s just a prospect so far, and his debut was good, but it doesn’t begin to compare with Sanchez’s debut when he hit 20 home runs in 53 games and put up this line: .299/.376/.657/1.032 with a 168 OPS+
Augusto Barojas
@bestscreen
I’d bet you any money you wanted that the Jays finish no lower than 2nd. I’m from Chicago, totally unbiased but think the Jays have a great, great team!
DogDays2
How the hell do you look at the Blue Jays roster as a last place team?
Jesse Chavez enthusiast
This is a massive win for the blue jays, you get a player that hits lefty, puts up above average numbers, plays tremendous defense in outfield and a decent catcher too and he has tons of control. Y’all need to stop panicking, some jays fans are massively over hyping Moreno and Lourdes.
RGR
This trade would hv made more sense for the Jays if they had held out for Alek Thomas to be included imho…….i thought they’d eventually cave and trade Moreno straight up for Varsho, they’re nearly equal level prospects but including Gurriel for no return makes little to no sense to me…..you’re in essence saying a catcher you have over valued for years and have talked openly about keeping as a 3rd catcher is now worth less than an equivalent value outfielder, mind you one who plays all 3 outfield positions excellently and is a promising young hitter, but isnt Moreno a great defensive catcher with offensive possibilities? What changed for the Jays? Is it a lot of lies to their fans about payroll and no fear about the luxury tax??
Poster formerly known as . . .
Varsho isn’t a prospect. He’s been in the majors since 2020.
Murphy NFLD
Totally agree. Id guess they were in on conforto and once he went elsewhere they pivoted here. I didnt like Moreno for Varasho stright up, Var is about a league average bat in the desert so his number prob drop when he leaves. Basically the jays traded hernandes gurrel and moreno for Swanson and 2 kevin Keirmiers. I would have rathered play Moreno in the grass thwn this And tgis still leaves the jays needing an Ofer. Now they have Varasho, KK, Biggio and Whit as an outfield seems pretty sus to me
Murphy NFLD
Im a jays fan and you always over value your own guys but the snakes made out like bandits here
Murphy NFLD
I totally forgot about springer loo but im still pissed
MarlinsFanBase
Kim Ng, where are you!?!?
King Floch
Awesome deal for Arizona and probably worth it for the Jays. Giving up Varsho hurts but the Dbacks filled 2 roster spots with 1 player, and while giving up Moreno hurts for the Jays, they still have a better catching situation than most teams and they added an elite defensive OF with good pop and speed and a ton of control remaining.
sufferforsnakes
I am very happy with this trade.
Diggydugler
I am not (Jays)
Jaysfan1981
I am not elated, I am happy we filled a need and will be his biggest fan when he’s successful
Usually good trades hurt both teams, AZ fans didn’t want Varsho to go. They wanted McCarthy gone. Most Jays fans wanted Jansen and for some reason the best one Kirk gone instead
R.D.
Seems like a lot of people are out here undervaluing Varsho. He’s like a poor man’s Grady Sizemore and I wish the Braves had the farm to have gone after him.
Hank Murphy
No, they aren’t undervaluing him. He’s a big meh.
Brendition90
Wow, I haven’t heard that name since my high-school days. I had to refresh my notes on him! Yeah, I agree, if he can be anywhere near Sizemore’s prime production,or even Mr. Vernon Wells… we will be very ok!
DTD/ATL1313
The rare trade that actually makes sense and benefits both teams in the short term and future. Great job Tor and Ari.
patricktroen
Have you see varsho AAA numbers?? Their is also a offensive upside. Seiously varsho could become the mvp of jays
Jaysfan1981
If history repeats itself, Donaldson did something very similar
JoeBrady
I like this for AZ but TO won’t miss Moreno for a couple of years.
But for the TO fans, what is the alignment?
It has to be Varsho in CF, and Springer in RF, right. So then it has to KK/Merrifield in LF?
Diggydugler
KK CF, Varsho RF, Springer LF? I don’t know the whole offseason was just randomly put together with no plan.
JoeBrady
Because that was my rather minor objection. I’m not sure it makes too much difference, but I am not sure Springer has ever played LF before.
Jaysfan1981
Here’s what I can surmise, and your “word” is supposed to mean something.
Keirmier was told the CF Job is his to lose. Not sure if that included a Caveat if a trade with AZ was made.
The plan all along was Springer to move to RF in the last 2 years of the deal, this being slightly early but probably best
Varsho can play any OF spot and play it extremely well.
So. It looks like.
Keirmier CF
Springer RF
Varsho LF.
With Whit playing any 3 as the 4th OF
Biggio playing LF while Vasho moves to RF if Springer and Espinal are off or hurt
JoeBrady
That again is one of my minor quibbles. Springer loses value moving to LF, where he’s never played. But Varsho also loses a bit of value since it is not as important as CF or RF.
Jays_Jen
I can’t believe we didn’t at least get something back for Gurriel Jr. I am excited to see Varsho, and losing Moreno stings, but it seems like we should have gotten more in the trade. Unless there’s more to come – but it seems this is the deal. Will be interesting to see how it shakes out!
Poster formerly known as . . .
Jays fans bemoaning this trade seem to be forgetting that trades are based on a team’s needs. The Jays still have Kirk (129 wRC+) and Jansen (140 wRC+), who’ve proven themselves in the majors.
Moreno might, but 69 at-bats proves nothing. He hit one home run and one double in 25 games. In 2016, Gary Sanchez hit 12 doubles and 20 home runs in 53 games. He’s still a good catcher, but nobody’s idea of elite.
Some here, while greatly underestimated Varsho’s offense, have said that the defensive improvement he brings is of negligible importance. Tell that to the pitching staff.
Poster formerly known as . . .
typo should read: “while greatly underestimating Varsho’s offense”
Even if you discount Varhso’s WAR and go by old school stats instead, he ranked 16th in runs and RBI among all outfielders in 2022. The Jays had one outfielder (Springer) with more runs in 2022 and two with more RBI (Hernandez and Springer) — two more RBI and three more RBI, respectively. And no Jays outfielder came close to saving as many runs as Varsho.
“I don’t like them fellas who drive in two runs and let in three.” – Casey Stengel
Some of you fans seem to need to be reminded that there’s two halves to an inning and both count.
KamKid
Fink, all good points. Here’s where I struggle to understand the pieces though. Don’t you want your elite defense up the middle? C, SS , CF in that order. The Blue Jays have Jansen who is good behind the plate but many people suggest his sequencing is too text book and predictable. Kirk can frame the bottom of the zone and has gotten better, but I think the gains he made are overblown because the minute they started asking him to catch on back to back days, his defense started to look pretty bad again. Moreno is a top prospect in the game because of his elite defensive tools. Sure, still a prospect, but a pretty high floor one with a ceiling that could make him one of the best. They just signed Kiermaier for the defense and promised him the CF job so even if it’s unlikely Kiermaier is going to be elite defensively, as long as he’s above average, it’s hard to see the team moving him for a guy who played RF in deference to a guy who couldn’t hang on to his major league roster spot for the year. I’m fine with looking to get better defensively and would have welcomed Nick Ahmed in the trade. But trying to get better defensively on the corners and giving up offense is a risky proposition. It could work, but it’s counterintuitive.
Moreover, the team themselves have talked about sameness and acknowledged that while they have a good offence overall, they do not perform well in leverage and are prone to team wide slumps. Atkins’ comments last offseason made me think they would be in hot pursuit of Conforto or similar (they had tried for Grossman the previous deadline). They didn’t get there last offseason or last deadline. They said similar things entering this offseason and when they actually traded one of their best hitters in Teo, I thought it really was a signal that they were going to look for diversity. Nimmo might have been a realistic possibility. So to end up with another guy who has an aggressive approach that leads to lots of strikeouts and poor quality contact is concerning. Since making comments acknowledging the sameness of the lineup that featured aggressive hitters, they added Tapia, Merrifield, Kiermaier, and Varsho. All fairly extreme cases of swing at everything in pursuit of poor quality contact and making a lot of outs. Chapman is the only addition they made with a decent plate approach but even then, his contact skills aren’t great so his OBPs are dragged down by the low averages. I’m not dumping on Varsho himself. He would have made a decent complement to Conforto as opposed to Kiermaier. It’s the profile I can’t understand. They say it repeatedly that they want guys who can control the zone, they drafted all high BB/low K position players last year, preach discipline in the minors, try to transform poor plate approach guys at the major league level. Why not just target guys with that skill already instead of trying to remake a guy hoping for upside?
The only way I can make sense of it is if they believe the shift rules are going to have substantial impacts on BABIPS as well as a deadened ball shifting the balance towards balls in play over selectiveness (though I wouldn’t make bets on what type of ball will be used).
SODOMOJO
Carson is French toast
leftcoaster
Diamondbacks traded a sure fire major league player for a prospect and an outfielder who crushed a mere 5hr’s last year. Most of us have discovered that prospects frequently flame out. I’d take the sure thing. Nice Job Jays.
Jaysfan1981
I’ll be surprised if Moreno isn’t at minimum a Craig Biggio clone who has a HOF career at 2nd after starting as a C.
Best of luck, hopefully he’s better than Pudge or Bench.
Hank Murphy
I literally facepalmed when I heard this joke of a trade.
I really hope the Blue Jays implode this season just to get a housecleaning in the front office.
They actually think roundboy is going to be a real catching option going forward.
I was hoping they would have found some team to take his pudgy butt off the Blue Jays this off season, instead they deal a young catcher who is an athlete with the tools and who looks like his knees won’t be gone by age 24 (unlike Mr Stayputf) to get a guy who is a better fielding version of Teo, who they gave away for a middle reliever.
I paraphrase Bubbles, “I’m done, Blue Jays getting ripped off, Craziness.”
smuzqwpdmx
I don’t agree with the trade. But I’ll never understand fans who root for their team to lose so they can enjoy being right about condemning their team’s management and look forward to years of rebuilding. Is that really a more enjoyable way to spend the season than, ya know, actually supporting rather than insulting the players you’ve got and rooting for your team to win?
Jaysfan1981
Well said.
I’ll root for Varsho until he’s cut. I’ll believe he can be what he’s projected to be until he’s not wearing our uniform.
Fan is short for Fanatic.
But he has as good a chance as any to be something better than most
Angels & NL West
You knew one of the lefty hitting OFs was going to go, but it still stings when it happens… even if you get a nice return.
Ron Hayes
Well they finally got their left handed batting outfielder. It just took the roster spots of Grichuk Hernandez and Gurriel to get there
big tee
Gurriel was going to leave at year end and if they were out at the deadline he’d have been gone then. He will also walk on Arizona for the open market I’m sure. Moreno is tough to lose but the return is terrific. Varsho is a legit defender and hitter with team control and more upsides.
To see blind support for the signing of a dilapidated Kevin Kiermaier on a steep decline for 9M because casual fans remember his dives and bloop singles from 2016 then have the same fans get angry about having to trade a prospect for a legit outfielder just because they don’t follow the NL is all sad. Good players cost good players, Jansen wasn’t getting them a legit starting outfielder.
I hate to point it out but they do still need a solid 4th outfielder ready to play 100+ games because we know Kiermaier and/or Springer will be hurt enough to need it.
Jaysfan1981
Whit Merrifield says HI!!
AJ Pollack also needs a job
jaysfansince1977
Nathan Lukes is also on the 40man roster and with a strong ST’ing could well force his way onto the 26man roster as the 4th OF’er
big tee
Hard pass at Merrifield playing everyday in the outfield. Get rid of Biggio and a prospect for Michael A Taylor and force that plug Kiermaier to a bench role.
RGR
The problem is they really dont just need what most teams consider a 4th outfielder though!! Remember we’ve got Springer and KK as regulars now, tbh to me that doesnt count for a lot more than 1 full season to maybe a season and half if we’re extremely lucky, right? So u need a guy who’s capable of being a healthy regular for a good portion of the season!! And god forbid if both Springer and KK go down in the first week, as it stands we’d have Espinal at 2nd, Biggio, Merrifield and Springer in the outfield and NO bench whatsoever…..thats not a win now formula!! I know its not likely, but to say both are injury prone is truly an understatement
revpar35
I thought Moreno would have brought a better return than Varsho. WTF?
Jaysfan1981
If Player X in the trade was an Elite Defense CF who could legitimately produce 270/350/800 with 30 HR and boatload of RBI hitting with runners in a protected lineup on almost every at bat. And throw in he’s also your emergency Catcher because your starter and backup hit so well they’ll split DH and C duties.
Who cares what his name is, Rose, Varsho, Griffey,
Jaysfansince92
He also has a legitimate chance of stealing 30 bases with the bigger bases. He seemed to get more comfortable stealing bases as the year went on as he went 8 for 8 in steals in last 28 days of season.
Any Dback fans that can verify this? Was he just taking advantage of bad catchers that can’t throw or was he stealing off legitimate back catchers in the last month of the season?
YourDreamGM
Fair trade that accomplishes both teams goal. Jays get 4 years of a proven outfielder although looking like a platoon. Arz gets 6 years of a potential starting catcher and whatever they can get from Gurriel.
KamKid
Okay D’Backs fans. I need someone to help me interpret Varsho’s offensive numbers. He hit 27 home runs yet doesn’t hit the ball hard (bad avg. exit velo and hard hit rates) though he can (decent max exit velo). I thought that might be a plate discipline thing and he certainly strikes out a bit more than you’d like but the walk rates aren’t that far below average. Pulling the ball into the shift too much? He does have low BABIPs but then that doesn’t hold true because his actual stats outweighed his expected. To me it seems like a guy with decent natural abilities who gives in too much and puts pitcher’s pitches in play? Is this the case with him?
The Jays haven’t had a ton of success in transforming these types of guys. Justin Smoak is the one success story I can think of where they had that kind of plate discipline breakthrough with. In other instances like Randal Grichuk the attempt came at the expense of power and he still didn’t get on base. Gurriel and Moreno themselves saw their power evaporate this past season as the Jays tried to tinker with their plate approach. They’ve had quite a few guys ascend through their system with a good plate approach to lean on (Biggio is one of those) but hose guys seemed to have that as a foundation already. Please calm my fears of a repeat of the Randal Grichuk experience.
Jaysfan1981
Im not an AZ fan obviously. But ill help.
Grichuk has zero to do in comparison to any of the players in this trade.
Anything can happen but Varsho looks like he’s gonna be the real thing. Will he be the #1 new Trout NOOOOO. but he doesn’t have to be.
He just needs to be what the Jays were missing. Slot into the 5th hole, maybe Cleanup eventually. Even if he starts in the 6th or 7th spot until he forces a move up, I don’t care.
Even if he is a younger KK. KK gone by the deadline or end of year if he doesn’t outperform his value anyway.
Could this be a bad trade in 7 years when Moreno is the best C in baseball and no ones seen Varsho in 2 years. Yea.
Could it work the other way around too. Yea.
Enjoy it for what it is, get in on the Ground floor. Go get a Varsho Jersey, he’s gonna be around at least 3 years.
Hopefully he finds a different gear and pops 45, hitting 3rd in front of Vlad
zack novotny
I’ve watched Varsho for a long time and I’m pissed that we traded him but I think we won the trade. But saying that, Varsho will benefit from the new shift rules as well. Also Varsho batted about .250 the entire year and ended the last 2 weeks horribly. I would reasonably expect him to probably hit .250/.320/.490 25hr/80rbi/15sb. That’s what you’ll get from Varsho.
scottaz
KamKid,
I agree that Varsho’s season numbers invite more questions than they provide answers. Here is my take.
Look at/unpack Varsho’s hitting chart from September 20 to the end of the season instead of looking at the season stats as a whole. Here is the context. By September 20, the Dbacks had 4 young left handed hitting OF. The team’s right handed hitting OF subs had all tanked and become automatic outs. The utility backups were all also left handed hitters. This was the Dbacks second worst problem. They were vulnerable to left handed pitching, and teams threw every left handed starter and reliever on their rosters at the Dbacks down the stretch with great success.
The Dbacks were also committed to the youth movement by this time, so they wanted to give these 4 young left handed hitting OF the experience of hitting against same sided pitching to enhance their development. Like almost all young players, hitting against major league same sided pitching is a challenge and requires constant adjustments. So all 4, including Varsho struggled offensively down the stretch. Thomas was even demoted because he handled the challenge worse than the other three.
Varsho showed the most promise that he could soon make the necessary adjustments, but he still struggled and his batting average and hard hit ball rates plummeted in those last few weeks.
My take is that the hard hit ball rate and batting averages will continue to improve, probably taking another big jump in 2023. I think Varsho is a stud with a great career ahead of him. It hurts to lose him, but the team was so vulnerable, one or two left handed bats had to go in the next two years.
KamKid
Scottaz, this is exactly the kind of answer I was looking for to give context to the numbers. Thanks.
Looking at the splits, it looks as though he would benefit from having a platoon partner (hmm, could we have Lourdes back?), though that just creates a positive feedback cycle where his splits become more pronounced and his defense should keep him in the starting lineup. Seems like with the 3 batter minimum, some lineup construction could help protect him a bit (especially as the Jays might have a more right handed lineup than Arizona to place him in) and having a right handed bench bat to protect against really unfavourable late game matchups could bring out more in him.
scottaz
KamKid
If you would like to salivate over one of Varsho’s defensive highlight reels, go to the Dbacks site on MLB and scroll down to “Dback’s Top 5 Catches of 2022”. They are all Varsho and at least one HR robbing catch is missing from that reel!
sidewinder11
Gurriel only has 4 years of service time. He should be controllable for 2 more years, right?
Jaysfan1981
Well spotted. Some outlets have him as a FA to start 2024 at contracts expiration.
Others have him as Arb eligible for 2024. FA after that.
Not sure which is correct. Appears Jays assumed FA after the 2023 season, no Arb
Digdugler
He has 1 more year. I dont know why but it has been confirmed by multiple sources.
sidewinder11
Except that Myers is a defensive liability and Varsho was the best defensive outfielder in the league last year.
Moneyballer
This was NOT an overpay by the jays. Moreno was expendable, varsho is a flat stud. The impact he will have on this team will be enormous. Kirk will not stop hitting, to add a big bat in varsho that can saves runs on defense, its a no-brainer. Blue Jays have improved quite a bit this offseason.
Poster formerly known as . . .
I’ll hazard a guess here: the next addition to the Jays will be Jurickson Profar.
abc123baseball
Varsho going to the team that kept his namesake from a championship.
Saskatchewan Jaysfan
I thought the same thing at first, but then I started thinking that Varsho is still young,his true power/speed totals r exciting, and not to mention that some LHH should do better this year with the shift. Gurriel is also in his last year. We’re still a tad thin in the outfield though..but this was a big win for the Jays….nah..both teams won..but the Jays did hahaha
Jal179
Saskatoon!
Whyme
Diamondbacks won this trade hands down. They get a catcher mlb ready and a quality OF for Randall Grichuk with better defense. Atkins is in over his head. We still need a 3rd OF put Varsho at CF as KK is washed.
Gwynning's Anal Lover
This is a win-win trade for both teams. Nice move.
MagRupe
Varsho WAR: 4.9
Grichuk WAR: 0.3
etex211
I almost missed this story. Why doesn’t it appear in the feed?
scottaz
From the Dbacks perspective: Their number 1 priority was to trade a left handed hitting OF for a right handed hitting OF (or 3b). Getting catching help was much lower on the priority list, probably #6 or #7 in priority.
So from the Dback’s perspective this was a trade for Gurriel and Moreno was thrown in to get best trade value for the Dbacks from Varsho’s talent.
Dbacks could have traded with the Marlins to get a package including OFs Soler ($24M) or Avi ($42M). But that was a ton of money.
The Dbacks could have traded with the White Sox for Closer Hendriks ($40M) and 3b Moncada ($37M), but that too was a ton of salary.
There were other alternative trade options to get priority pieces (OF, 3b, Closer, Starting pitcher) for one of the 4 CFers, but this is the one Hazen settled on.
Dbacks fans didn’t want to lose any of the Top 4 studs. Corbin Carroll was/is untouchable. I thought Varsho was nearly untouchable too. Trading Thomas would have been selling low on him and not get the impact piece the Dbacks wanted. McCarthy doesn’t have the elite pedigree of the other three, so his breakout season was/is suspect. So, ultimately it came down to Varsho. Congrats to the Jays! You got a stud!
Again from the Dbacks perspective, they probably need to trade another of these studs this off-season or next.
JoeBrady
Trading Thomas would have been selling low on him and not get the impact piece the Dbacks wanted.
==============================
That’s why I liked Thomas for the RS. We didn’t really match up well, but I was still hoping for a steal.
Varsho is kind of the opposite. He’s better than Thomas by a lot, currently, but AZ is still trading him at the top of the market.
SweetBabyRayKingsThickThighs
Jay’s fixing the outfield defense
scottaz
What’s next for the Dbacks?
They might be done.
They might sign a FA right handed 3b.
They might trade another CF for a 3b, Closer or Starter.
In the OF: Gurriel is the place holder for Kristian Robinson. Lewis is the place holder for Druw Jones.
5 young Starters Will jockey for two or 3 rotation slots and 1 may be switched to the bullpen as the Closer of the near future. Tommy Henry, Ryan Nelson and Drey Jameson already debuted last season. Brandon Pfaadt is probably better than any of those 3. And Blake Walston should be ready sometime after the All-Star break. Jameson has been speculatively offered as a high level conversion to the backend of the bullpen.
BTW Blaze Alexander might bring his canon SS arm and great baseball name to the Dbacks soon.
highheat
I’m much higher an Blaze than most; was hoping to see his howitzer get some play time in the COF, but getting Gurriel Jr. is better initial results.
scottaz
highheat
What do you think about Blaze as a right handed hitting Utility INF this year instead of Pavin? Since Gurriel can backup Walker at 1b, even though both are right handed? With Lewis and Gurriel in the outfield against lefties, it would be nice to have a right handed Utility guy against lefties so 2 of the 3 starting OF aren’t forced to face left handed pitching.
highheat
Like I said, I’m higher on Blaze than most lol. Even if he’s just a short side platoon bat that gives you decent to good defense at multiple spots, that’s a player that did fit onto the DBacks MLB roster prior to the Varsho deal.
However, Pavin is going to occupy that active roster spot until they deem Thomas ready to run it back and the addition of Moreno makes it difficult to play Blaze at 2B against LHP, because Kelly/Moreno should be good enough in that situation for one to occupy the DH spot.
Since we already have Marte, Rojas, Ahmed, Rivera, and Perdomo that we know for sure are at the very least decent bench pieces, there wouldn’t be too many PAs available for him in the IF (hence getting him some COF time to take advantage of his arm strength).
I do believe that he’s just shy of beating out Perdomo for a roster spot and he could probably jump 1:1 into whatever role Ahmed vacates at season’s end. He’s most likely first man up if any of the IFs go down to injury.
highheat
As it stands right now, the LHP lineup is:
-C/DH: Kelly/Moreno
-1B: Walker
-2B: Marte
-3B: Rivera
-SS: Ahmed
-LF: Gurriel Jr.
-CF: McCarthy
-RF: Lewis
That’s only one LHH against LHP as is.
scottaz
Gurriel becomes a Free Agent at the end of his contract in 2023 under Free Agent XX(B) according to Cots Contracts.
analyzer87
Good trade for both teams. bluejays desperately needed a better outfield. Too many errors and catches not made. Doesnt get much better then kiermaier and varsho.D’backs did good here too. Guerriel can be flipped either this year or next year at the deadline if not in contention. Moreno is the hugh piece here. His hitting is already mlb ready. But his play calling needs work. D’backs can afford to let him work on it at the mlb level right away
RGR
The issue to me now with the Jays is this, they only have 3 true outfielders on the active roster and 2 of those are injury prone (and thats being exceedingly kind to their histories). Also both LH outfiielders, KK and Varsho, have shown no ability whatsoever to be able to hit LHP, so of course teams are gonna bring in solid LH relievers to pitch to them late in games, and the Jays will have to scramble their lineup to get Merrifield in to pinch-hit. To me, they now have an incredibly thin bench for a win now team. Maybe more is coming, but it seems to me, they now need a solid 4th RH outfielder who can play fairly regularly, so why give up Gurriel in this trade?