All off-season it’s seemed a matter of when not if the Blue Jays trade one of their three catchers – Alejandro Kirk, Danny Jansen and Gabriel Moreno. According to Mark Feinsand of MLB.com, the Blue Jays were open to trading Jansen to bring in a starting pitcher, but after landing Chris Bassitt on a three-year, $63MM deal Feinsand reports that a trade is no certainty now.
In any event, Toronto is in a strong negotiating position as there’s a few paths they could go down. The clear top two free agent options – Willson Contreras and Christian Vazquez – are off the board, while the Braves have acquired Sean Murphy, making the Blue Jays the clear and obvious fit for any catcher-hungry teams. They could also opt to carry three catchers on the active roster, cycling players through the DH spot, or option Moreno back to Triple-A and go with a Kirk-Jansen tandem to begin the year at least.
The additions of Bassitt to the rotation and Kevin Kiermaier to the outfield decrease the clear needs for the Blue Jays to address this winter, but in a competitive AL East, it wouldn’t be surprising to see them ultimately opt to pursue further upgrades, whether via trade or free agency. As Jon Heyman of the New York Post notes, the Jays were finalists for Masataka Yoshida (the Dodgers were the other finalist) before he signed for the Red Sox. It’s not clear whether the Kiermaier signing arose because they missed out on Yoshida, or whether they tried to sign both, but given the former’s injury history and declining production it wouldn’t be a surprise to see them seek another outfielder.
Boston’s signing of Yoshida addressed the need to upgrade their offense following the departure of Xander Bogaerts to San Diego. It also likely spelled the end of any chance of Eric Hosmer, who was DFA’d yesterday, receiving regular at bats. The Red Sox look to have locked in youngster Triston Casas as their everyday first-baseman moving forward, while Yoshida (and others) could well take a few DH at bats as the Red Sox cycle through their outfielders. Boston’s chief baseball officer Chaim Bloom addressed the DFA of Hosmer to Chris Cotillo of MassLive.
“Our roster isn’t complete yet, but as we build our club, we feel it’s important to give Triston a clear lane, and that carrying two left-handed hitting first basemen would leave us short in other areas. Given that, it’s important to do right by Eric and give him time to find his next opportunity. We knew when we first got him that this day would come at some point, and wanted to make sure we treated him right.”
Cotillo also reports that the Red Sox tried hard to trade Hosmer prior to DFA’ing him, but found minimal interest in the league. Hosmer did receive a full no-trade clause as part of the trade that sent him from San Diego to Boston at the deadline, but Cotillo’s report said that the lack of trade interest meant the no-trade clause didn’t even come into play. The Red Sox can still trade him while he’s on waivers, but it seems likely he’d be released onto the open market.
While an outgoing trade of Hosmer seems unlikely, the team is working on incomings, and recently asked the Marlins about Miguel Rojas, according to Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic. Rojas was one of the top defensive shortstops in the sport last season, and as Rosenthal notes, the Marlins value that defense and rebuffed Boston’s inquiry. Rojas is under contract for one more year at an affordable $5MM salary.
I guess I am the weird guy, but I was kind of hoping they would keep him around for his leader ship and other qualities, I wonder what a Cassas trade would look like? Is there enough value there to trade him for some pitching? I know last year the problem was not scoring runs it was preventing them
I don’t see the Sox having any interest in trading Casas at all. He’s their long term answer at 1B. And not just for his offensive potential but also defensively. One of the issues the team has had the past couple of years is the group of players they’ve put over there (Dalbec, Cordero and Schwarber) have all been pretty bad especially at catching throws that bounce short in the dirt. Casas is much better than any of that trio at that, so will likely improve the team’s entire infield defense.
The teams rebuilding, why trade an up and coming 1B for an SP. Just trading one weakness for another. Plus, Since Casas is still unproven, his value would not warrant much in return.
Teams trade established veterans for minor leaguers all the time, what are you talking about?
Yeah that was the dumbest thing I’ve read in a long time that prospects don’t have value because they are unproven. If they are proven then they aren’t a prospect anymore mo ron.
Sure, but they rarely trade underachieving prospects and get back veterans with any value. Cassas alone won’t get you Reynolds or Lopez or Jansen. Which veterans could be traded for a prospect first baseman with missing power.
Casas gets Lopez easy. Steal for Miami and fills a need for them.
To RemoveManger: Whats your problem? Dumbest thing Ive read is someone who cant read and response to it with “mor on”.
What I said: “Casas is still unproven, his value would not warrant. . .”
What you claim I said: “prospects don’t have value because they are unproven”
BIG DIFFERENCE.
Seek mental help. Oh and go F yourself.
Wow what a weird-guy….hahaha JK
Generally, bat-first, 1B/DH types don’t hold high trade value.
Casas has a good glove too. he WOULD bring back a good return but there is NO way Bloom trades him. these are the kind of players bloom covets–young guys on entry level contracts.
For many years now the Sox have not prioritized pitching.
He showed no leadership in the SD clubhouse so why would he provide it in Boston? And what are his other qualities, besides being cheap? The guy does not want to be a part time player.
nonetheless Bloom just handed SD a pretty good pitching prospect for a guy they had for a month. Bloom = STUPID !!
Randy: The pitching prospect (Groome) is likely going nowhere. His stuff did not come back after Tommy John surgery.
If you’re talking about Jay Groome, he’s barely a prospect anymore. His ceiling has plummeted the last few years to the point where a 5th starter is probably the best you can hope for.
Seriously Marlins. Let me see. How about Rojasnd Lopez for Duran, Casas, Rafaela, Lugo and Binelas nd Downs. Please think for once out of the box. This can be done at at the end of the you are a better team. Also for extra assurance get one of the free agents shortstop
There’s no way the Red Sox would move Casas and Rafaela in a trade for Lopez
I was thinking Rojas and Lopez for Dalbec, Duran and cash.
And people say Yankees fans come up with ridiculous trade proposals
Are you talking to me or frank? Because mine is sarcastic, in response to a ridiculous 6 prospects for 2 players with 3 years of control between them. And he doesn’t even know Downs was DFA’d.
Downs was dfa’d on Thursday. Nobody’s trading anything of even minimal value for him
We’ll see how long Casas’s attitude and work ethic allow for him to keep the position he currently holds.
Weird comment. There’s never been any evidence to suggest his attitude or work ethic are anything remotely problematic
Who said that there had been issues?
“ We’ll see how long Casas’s attitude and work ethic”
Literally you did
You have used the word “literally”, but appear confused by its meaning. Where in what you quoted does it say there is an issue?
Perhaps it came out differently than you expected, but it did sound like you thought it was a problem.
I stated that his success is contingent upon his work ethic and attitude as is the case for any player. I’m unclear why this has caused outrage.
Nottingham working as a waiter “Would you like some bread, that didnt fall on the floor and get kicked under the fridge?”
Patron “Did the bread fall on the floor?”
Nottingham “No, I said it DID NOT fall on the floor, why would you think that?”
Kirk to Arizona for Thomas and Ryne Nelson. Get this done DBacks
If you want Kirk, it’s gotta be Varsho at minimum
T.O. probably wants more
AZ probably wants Toronto to throw in more
Probably why a trade hasn’t and might not happen
Which is why I suggested 2 players that aren’t Varsho, who fit needs for both teams. I’m sure the Jays would love Varsho, but I’m also pretty sure they aren’t trading him
But those are not players I feel interest the Jays front office unfortunately.
At least not for Kirk.
Jansen maybe
A good young starting pitcher with mid rotation potential and a young CF’er with long term potential are players the Jays wouldn’t be interested in.
Perhaps TOR would like a hard throwing lefty for their pen? Could Soto perhaps get back a C for Detroit?
Jaysfan1981;
How long ar3e you and other Jays fans going to come on here discussing the same trades for the Jays catchers that aren’t happening?
A 25 year old “prospect” with an ERA of five and a half in AAA whose realistic ceiling is the bullpen… well, that isn’t something any team is particularly interested in trading a young All-Star for. Thomas looks like more of a prospect, but the Jays aren’t really in prospect acquisition mode and it takes a lot more than one prospect for a guy who’s already a star but not yet paid like one.
No the Jay’s aren’t interested in adding potential for one of their catchers. Jays will want an established player
1981, as a fellow Jays’ fan, I feel much more inclined to take Thomas and a genuine MLB ready SP prospect with all his options remaining than Varsho. Varsho is more valuable than Thomas right now, but Thomas is much more the profile they are seeking as a guy who is known to control the strike zone. To get another piece like Nelson that helps immediately would be great in any catcher trade. Unless you think Thomas Hatch taking the ball every five days when one of the Starters goes down is a formula for getting to 95 wins?
I like the thinking. I’d rather underpay a little, and hope for improvement, than overpay for past results and hope they don’t revert.
I like Varsho a whole lot, but he’s going to be real expensive.
Thomas Hatch had a better year than Ryne Nelson. Just because Nelson throws harder and fooled hitters who’d never seen him for three starts, that doesn’t make him “a genuine MLB ready SP prospect.” Guys like him inevitably end up in the bullpen where it’s hoped their velocity plays up more and their ineffective secondary pitches matter less.
Mystery
The mystery is where is your brain? Dbacks shouldn’t trade either one of these players to get a backup catcher, let alone both of them!
Kirk is way overhyped, he’s nothing more than a backup catcher. And backup catchers have zero or negative value.
Maybe the Jays think they are in a strong bargaining position because they have the luxury of 3 catchers, but the Dbacks have even more luxury with 6 left handed batting CF. And both the Jays and Dbacks don’t have to trade any of their luxury because they can both find AtBats for all of these players.
So don’t look at this from only the Jays perspective and say they are in the strongest bargaining position. Actually the Dbacks are in the strongest position. Which would you rather have? A backup catcher? Or a premium talented player at a premium position, CF? If you were a GM, would you trade a CF for a backup catcher? I absolutely would not!
A realistic trade offer is Pavin Smith for Kirk.
Good thing that both backup catcher and the DH spot are open in Arizona, and Kirk is better than the current starting catcher in Arizona. So I guess he’s not a back up catcher in Arizona.
Explain how the DBacks are supposed to get at bats for 6 CF’ers, especially when Carroll gets called up and inevitably gets the bulk of playing time.
Thomas’s value only goes down as he gets less playing time.
I am looking at this from the DBacks position who are looking for a catcher and have the assets to make it happen
Mystery
A backup catcher is the lowest want/priority for the Dbacks. They have 3 catchers on their 40 man roster. If they trade one of their CF assets, it won’t be for a backup catcher, it will be for:
1. Power, right handed hitting corner OF
2. Power, right handed hitting 3b
3. Closer
4. Maybe an established young starter with several remaining years of control, like Pablo Lopez of the Marlins.
If they trade for any other positions, including or especially for a backup catcher, they won’t use their top 4 CF studs, instead they will trade other assets.
The same goes for starting pitchers like Ryne Nelson. The Dbacks have 5 or 6 young starters, 3 successfully debuted last year. The Dbacks firmly believe you can never have too much starting pitching. So none of these will be traded, especially not for backup catchers.
The Dbacks have 4 CF (Carroll, Varsho, Thomas and McCarthy) for OF/DH duty. BTW, Carroll was already called up last September. The 5th is Pavin Smith who is a 1b/Corner OF who can and has played CF. Smith is the backup 1b, who also slots in at LF, DH and CF. The sixth is Dominic Fletcher who is also on the 40 man roster, but is still blocked by the first 4 so is in AAA and has not yet cracked the Active 26 man roster. Fletcher has already proven all he needs to at the AAA level, hitting over .300 last year entirely at AAA.
You commented that both backup catcher and DH spots are open in AZ. What you don’t understand is that the Dbacks use 2 catchers on their active roster, not 3 catchers like the Jays. With 3 catchers, the Jays can use 1 as DH and still have a backup on the bench for emergencies. The Dbacks don’t do that, they never have one catcher start and the other DH. That’s because Varsho can catch in a pinch, so he is their theoretic 3rd active roster catcher, but he is already in the OF lineup.
Your constant assertions of the Jays catchers being back up catchers are ridiculous. All three of them are better than anything Arizona has by a large margin. In fact all three of them are better than anything quite a few teams have at catcher.
As a DBacks fan, agreed. They’re all tremendously valuable, but none of them is enough to be traded for AZ’s best CFs; those two things can be true at the same time.
Maybe there could be a 1:1 deal for Thomas or McCarthy at current value, but the DBacks are also well equipped to hold them and build value.
Kirk got the majority of ABs in TOR, so that really makes him the starter. Regardless, he would be the starter in AZ. Actually, any team that acquires him will have the intent of him starting for them. No team will be trying to acquire him to be the backup. I have to say the only thing more rare than a C who can hit, or a CF who can hit, is probably a LH reliever who can hit 100 mph (Soto).
Cool, thanks for writing a novel. I was joking, Kirk is not a back up catcher.
I agree that the Jays would need to add to the deal on their end for someone like Varsho, but if that’s not in the cards then there probably isn’t a good match. A win now club should not be trading established Major Leaguers for prospects.
Trade value for them are high atm but I can’t be the only one expecting steep regression from them right?
Jaysfansince92, In theory a win now club isn’t trading established major leaguers for prospects, but circumstances might call for it. And really, are the Jays a win now club? I know they want to be competitive this year, but I’m not sure they are confident in this roster enough to sacrifice their self proclaimed goal of sustained competitiveness. Think about their trades over the last couple of seasons. They’ve spread their returns out rather than consolidating the talent. Teo’s one remaining year of condensed impact turned into multiple years of Swanson and a prospect. Instead of a rental starter, they traded for 5 years of White and 6 of De Jesus. They’ve collected secondary longer term pieces in most of their trades: Francis, Pop, De Jesus, Pinto, Macko. Even their primary pieces were more than just rentals. Mystery’s proposal is exactly the kind of return the Blue Jays front office has been seeking in trades.
I’d also say that any team that really wants to be a win now team needs to feel good about their number 6-10 starters because they will be needed. Nelson would be an upgrade on their number 7 and easily on merit could be given the ball ahead of White and Kikuchi when a need arises. Maybe it’s not Nelson himself, but someone like him who is ready now but has options remaining and has a legitimately good chance of being a mid rotation starter. They need someone like that because they haven’t developed guy.
None of the deals you mentioned were established major leaguers for prospects. Except for Teoscar they were all prospects who were farther out than the players they got back. Even in the Teoscar trade they got back a releiver with an ERA under 2.00 at the mlb level.
Also Thomas was horrible at the plate last year. What little damage he did do was when he first got called up and once the pitchers got the book on him he showed no sign of being able to adjust. He got considerably worse as the year went on hitting .205 on his last 75 games. If you look at his stat cast page pretty much every offensive category is dark blue and between the 9th and 20th percentile. He also had a 58% ground ball rate and his launch angle was 2.6°.
I guess the point I was making is that they made a bunch of trades while in contention and rather than taking the return in condensed win now value, they diversified the return and spread the value out over several years. That suggests to me that they are less likely to trade Moreno and Tiedemann for say Bryan Reynolds and more likely to do something like the suggested trade here. Even if we focus on the D’Backs specifically, I think it’s more likely they target a Thomas and Nelson type move than consolidating the return into Varsho or Carroll.
On Thomas himself, I don’t know. He was 22 last year. I’m mostly going on scouting grades and reports and what seems to be his trade value. Personally, I think I had a preference of the Brewers’ lefty OFs (Frelick and Mitchell) to Arizona’s (unless Carroll is on the table). But with Milwaukee trading Ruiz and getting Contreras, that ship seems to have sailed. I do know Toronto doesn’t have an outfield beyond this season so adding Happ or Kepler types seems silly to me after the Kiermaier signing. They need control.
On Nelson and the pitching end, I hadn’t considered him until this proposal but he’s the type of guy they really need. Who is their number 7 SP right now? In ‘21 it was Manoah. Last year it was some unclear combination of Francis, Lawrence, Castillo, and Hatch. 3 of those guys are no longer on the 40 man and 2 of them not even in the organization. They were really lucky to have had good health outcomes and Stripling as their 6. I was looking at Cleveland’s pitching prospects like Williams, Bibee, Curry as guys who might be a nice return for Jansen, but Cleveland has addressed their catching situation too. Your team’s floor is only as strong as its depth and you have to trade for it if you aren’t developing it. The expanded playoffs I think are also blurring the buyer/seller lines. Mystery’s trade proposal is the type of framework I see as reasonable to expect even if the exact players aren’t the end ones.
Moreno can also play some OF so the Jay’s might not be inclined either.
Lmao, I hope this is a joke. Kirk’s not great defensively, but he was one of the best offensive catchers in baseball. There isn’t a lineup in the league he wouldn’t be a starter in, even if it was mostly at DH. Only Varsho and Christian Walker had more fWAR in Arizona’s lineup last year.
Varsho might be a little steep for just Kirk, but a package consisting of Jake McCarthy and some decent secondary pieces would be more than fair.
Not great defensively? He was one of the best framing catchers in baseball last year, while grading slightly above average in both blocking and throwing (accuracy over pop time). He’s actually a very good defensive C.
roiste, et al
From the Dback’s perspective, they are looking for a backup catcher, but they have several higher priorities, so they would never trade a premium CF for a backup catcher, they would use those assets for higher priorities.
Jays fans are trying to get maximum return for one of their catchers. I get that. What Jays fans don’t get is that the Dbacks are also looking to get maximum return for trading one of their CF, and a backup catcher is about as far from maximum return as you can get on a major league roster, maybe middle reliever is slightly lower.
@scottaz, you know I’m a DBacks fan too; even I strongly disagree with the take that any of the Jays Catchers are backups. I agree that the DBacks won’t deal without getting good value (which I don’t believe straight up dealing would be), but underevaluating other teams players is exactly what we’ve been complaining about.
The fan space is a much better place when fans objectively analyze players; it actually contributes something to the discussion.
Scottaz, Arizona already has their backup catcher; his name is Carson Kelly with his 0.8 WAR. What they need is a starting catcher. Any team that has designs on contending should probably look to upgrade on that.
Agreed that anything the Jays have at C is better than Carson, but FWIW Carson has a projection from Steamer for 2.0 WAR in under 400 PA and ZiPS has him for 1.9 WAR in the same number of PA.
He’s been dealing with injury issues for the last couple seasons, and both systems see him returning closer to historical norms.
The Jays have better Cs, but Carson is not necessarily a backup; both things are true.
Any Catcher you get get from the Jay’s would instantly be your starter. Dback fans need to realize that just because backup C is your need it doesn’t make upgrade Catchers a backup…
LOL
That ‘backup’ catcher finished 4th in overall catcher value as a 23 year old, while walking more than he struck out and was personal catcher to third place AL cy finalist
Honestly one of the dumbest things I’ve read on this site that features Samuel and A’sfanninUk, so that’s saying a lot.
Lol yeah the Blue Jay’s are gonna trade Kirk who posted a OPS+ of 126 for a guy with a OPS+ of 89.
Backup Cathers dont get 500+ plate attempts in a season. He split time as a DH because the Jay’s have Jansen as well.
Next time try harder with your trolling.
In what world is Kirk a backup catcher lol? Unless you mean he’s a 4 game per week catcher/ 2 game per week DH. But that’s a pretty disingenuous take considering the backup catcher might possibly the least important position on the team. Kirk alone brings back one of your good outfielders, not Pavin Smith.
How is that a fair offer? Smtih is a so-so platoon 1B/OF. Kirk would start behind the dish for pretty much every team in the league. Only ones I wouldn’t see him starting for are the Braves and Phillies.
Pavin Smith has $0 in surplus value per btv and Kirk has 50 million+, but sure that’s a realistic trade…
> Kirk is way overhyped, he’s nothing more than a backup catcher. And backup catchers have zero or negative value.
Kirk started in the All Star Game in 2022. You’re completely out to lunch on Kirk’s value.
Mystery, would Arizona want Kirk over Moreno? They have similar value but I had always assumed Arizona would prefer the longer control and higher ceiling of Moreno over the more immediate impact of Kirk.
Either way, that’s a good start on a framework. I’ve thought about bigger packages that include Thomas, Pfaadt, Mantiply and Moreno + some of the Jays’ high floor prospects like Otto Lopez. Nelson is interesting though. Exactly the kind of player the Jays really need. I like your framework from the Jays’ perspective.
I don’t think the jays are trading Moreno and I don’t think I would if I was them even if it was Varsho coming back. A catcher with Morenos potential just doesn’t come along very often
Cant speak for the Jays, but I wouldnt want Thomas for one of their catchers. His stat cast page is a sea of blue. Maybe that changes down the road but that’s not really something a win now club should be looking for.
Especially not for a player that is already a a major contributor and can help the team win now. Acquiring a player like Kirk is going to hurt you can’t just send whichever player you don’t think is going to be in the starting lineup.
I will admit however that I don’t know much about the other players you mentioned so maybe it’s not as lopsided as I think
I agree that that’s not a trade that should be pursued. The majority of Thomas’s current trade value comes from the high floor his defense brings, his team control, and his age related upside; which you are absolutely right to say a win now shouldn’t be pursuing, unless they’re higher on his baseline production or ceiling.
It was more a suggestion that they might be able to trade from the lower end of their talent pools, but high end is highly unlikely.
Alex Thomas is already a great defender in cente field, he put up a 1.5 bwar last year. Varsho had a bad bat for 2 seasons.
Varsho had a bad bat for two seasons? He had a below average line in 2020 because he was learning OF on the fly (while still playing C).
In 2021 he was (literally) a tick below average by wRC+, but was worth 2.3 fWAR in 315 PA; that’s an above average player easily.
In 2022 he was a few ticks above average by wRC+ while playing plus defense in multiple OF spots and moonlighting at C. He was worth 4.3 fWAR in 592 PA; that’s a WELL above average player.
And he’s under 4 more seasons of control with the shift banned? Varsho’s gonna be worth close to 5 WAR this season (you’re welcome to bookmark and tell me I’m wrong at the end of the season).
Mystery133 hours ago
Varsho had a bad bat for 2 seasons.
=======================
Y’all need to become more familiar with Baseball Reference before posting stuff that is obviously incorrect. He has 3 seasons:
2020 76 OPS+
2021 102
2022 109
Just for fun, let me know which of those two are the bad seasons.
Jays would have no interest in what is basically a prospect outfielder. They have guys like Thomas at AAA. If they trade a C it will be for an upgrade with an established player.
Does Moreno have any value as a utility guy ala Russell Martin? He’s fit and has (very limited) time at 2B, 3B, and LF. I didn’t get any sense for his abilities last year though.
A dozen games at 2B would help with the logjam somewhat.
Not really.
Merrifield is probably the starter at 2nd and backup CF to keep Keirmier off his feet
Espinal is probably the backup everything on the IF except 1st
Biggio is the 5th OF/3rd string 2B/backup 1B
Moreno probably starts in AAA barring injury
Sure he could play a utility role. But it’s probably a terrible idea for his development.
TY, as Scott Kingery has entered the chat…….
Moreno for Matt Mclain
I realize that the Jays don’t want to give up valuable catching for nothing, but if they go into 2023 with Gurriel, Kiermaier, and Springer as the starting OFs and potentially their best catcher in AAA I’m going to be disappointed. Huge opportunity to upgrade a win-now team and get the greatest number of games out of the best players you can put on the field.
Their best current Catcher is Jansen.
If what Jansen was doing in the last 2 years, injuries and all, but you were able to change his age to 23 or 24. He’d be the keeper for sure.
He still has 2 years, he’s not lame duck. He may even want to stay at a reasonable contract.
Kirk is the Incumbent, he has an Elite bat, but doesn’t fit anywhere else on the diamond including first because his short and puggy with zero speed. He’s likely always gonna need a 60/40split with DH only being his last few years but will excel at the C position for 6-8 more years or longer who knows
Moreno is the unicorn except he has 0 power which long term relegate him to C or 2nd. C probably creates the best long term value for him especially given his pop time/arm plus elite bat to ball profile and good speed (elite for a C) and the versatility isn’t nothing, but probably not as useful as people want to think, it’ll just get him a dozen extra at bats once he’s full time
Everything in this comment is wrong.
???
All of the names are correct …?
Thank you for saying it Dusty…….I say you beat about 10 others to that comment.
If Kirk was an elite bat that’d be one thing, but he looks like a very good bat at best. He OPSd 661 in the second half last year. Thats not sustainable for someone getting DH at bats.
Ted;
Good point.
Kirk is a fan favorite for obvious reasons. But those reasons start with the fact that he’s a terrible physical specimen (they love the roly poly aspect as the Giants fans did Pablo Sandoval until he suddenly imploded). And he’s a catcher – the most physically challenging position on a team.
The fact that the man ran down after catching about half their games in spite of being 24 years-old does not bode well for his future as a full-time ML catcher. Sure maybe he can do some DH’ing. But the fact is that I believe all 3 Jays catchers are being overvalued not just by their fans, but by their FO as well.
If they don’t have a primary DH the Jays should just keep the 3 of them – DH’ing one each game – and MLBTR should stop writing the same article every 2 days about their catchers being up for trade. Teams needing catchers this year have been signing them the past
4-5 days.
Samuel there is no evidence to suggest Kirk will break down as a catcher or any other position (if he played any). The fact that he has a certain body type means nothing as there have been others that were of similar body type and had long careers.
As for him breaking down in the second half one need to look no farther than Santiago Espinal. Espinal has a body that only some men dream of obtaining , yet he to broke down in the second half while playing less games (not by much) than Kirk.
Another thing to consider is Kirk is a very good defender (ranking in top 10 of a lot of defensive categories) that often gets overlooked because he is so good on offense.
Moreno is a top 10 baseball prospect and was number 5 for most of 2022.
If the Blue Jays are overvaluing any of the catchers it is Jansen. Sure he has experience but his defense is below average. His offense is ok but very streaky, So yeah the Blue Jays tend to over value him
@Sammy
Kirk is a fan favorite because he’s good, not because he’s puggy (and lacks personality) he’s good, really good. His weight means little, so many “oversized” players succeed (Hello Cecile and Prince) and as we’ve seen with Vlad who was encouraged to bulk up and watch his waist, Kirk will likely at minimum stay as is, he’s not going to arrive next year 100bs overweight.
“Ran down”. No, slumps are a thing, regression to the means is real and sometimes other people get the best of you and you tip your hat. Kirk was never gonna hit 330 over the year but certainly will give you 3 or 4 over 290.
Jays can and should keep all 3 until someone decides to overpay before the deadline, and/or maximize at deadline for Jansen if it gets that far, at that point we’re looking at a single AA pitcher who’s got a good report, ready for action in 2-3 years or or a few AAA OF who will profile as regulars in a lineup to replace Gurriel
Darthyen,
Jansen had +5 drs in 63 games at catcher last year. That is not below average. That is above average. In previous posts you cherry picked a few things he isn’t great at and ignored the good parts. He was 5th in blocked runs saved last year despite having around half the opportunities of the players near the top of the leader board.
Also he has 32 homeruns in his last 600 PA and got stronger as the year went on in 2022 despite suffering multiple injuries. The Blue Jays value him because they should. Only 2 or 3 catchers produced more WAR per game last year.
Oh the team can get better by signing Hosmer and Turner. But the trade with Boston should and must be revisit ASAP. Do something productive for once.
So much for the “trade Hosmer” posters from a few weeks ago on MLBTR. When pointed out he has a no-trade clause and not much value, they kept insisting he would be traded.
Just another head scratcher of Chaim Bloom. Why trade for him then? You gave up Jay Groome who I get isn’t solid and hasn’t put it together but you would of had an arm and you have him up for Hosmer for League minimum. It’s a trade that absolutely makes no sense in retrospect.
Didn’t the Red Sox get back 2 minor in the deal?
don’t remind me what we gave up to get a month of Hosmer
Jays fans
Who is your starting catcher? Whoever that is, the other two are by definition “backup catchers”.
If you say two of your catchers are time share, there is no 1 starter, then I say “So none of your 3 catchers is good enough to win the starting job over the other two, therefore job share catchers equal backup catchers!”
Starting catchers don’t have major flaws in their all around game, like many of you have already admitted all 3 of your catchers have on your posts in this thread!
Therefore, all 3 Jays catchers are backup catchers.
Your post is like a fantasy world.
Ohtani isn’t perfect
Trout isn’t perfect
Judge isn’t perfect
Vlad isn’t perfect
So by your logic, none of those players have value.
If a team had say 6 SS on their roster, that also by your logic makes the other 5 backups, even if they play out of position because they are just that good
AZ fans, come get ya boy! Someone needs to make sure whatever concussion he’s suffering from isn’t as bad as it seems
I won’t apologize for another man’s opinions, but yeah, that’s quite the leap of logic (or from it, I guess).
Carson Kelly 0.8 WAR, Jansen 2.9 WAR (in 72 games), Kirk 3.8 WAR. If they are not starting caliber catchers than what is Kelly?
Your assertions that they will be backups on Arizona is ridiculous. Maybe come out from under your bridge every once in awhile and watch a baseball game now and then.
Jaysfan
I never said the Jays catchers would be backups in AZ. What I wrote was that the Dbacks are in the market for a backup catcher.
The Jays fans started posting about trading with AZ, and overvaluing their catchers and undervaluing the Dbacks CF.
If you want a good player at arguably the most premium position on the diamond, it’s gonna take a lot. Look at what each of Kirk, Jansen, and Moreno did last season. Kirk was arguably the best hitting catcher in the league last season and provided value defensively. He had the second highest fWAR among AL catchers. Danny Jansen had a 140 wRC+ in 248 plate appearances. That’s the 12th highest single-season mark for catchers in the last decade (min. 200 PA). Gabriel Moreno entered the 2022 season as one of baseball’s premier prospects, batted over .300 wtih a 113 wRC+ in his first taste of major league play, and flashed plus defense behind the dish. All three of these guys would start on about 25 of the 30 major league teams. Jansen is the only one of that trio in arbitration too.
Now consider that the catching market is now a seller’s market and the Jays have the monopoly on the catching trade market. The best FA options are Roberto Perez, Austin Hedges, Tucker Barnhart, and Jorge Alfaro. Now with Sean Murphy and both Contreras brothers off the market, now all you’re left with is Moreno, Jansen, or Kirk, unless you really want James McCann.
Hey Dbacks fan
If a team has 3 catchers better than your starter, any convo about them in a trade is you trading for a STARTER.
Your welcome.
There’s a good case to be made that Jansen and Kirk are currently both better than any other catcher in Blue Jays history, and that Moreno will be by 2023.
Who would you say was better? Ernie Whitt? Russ Martin? Neither of them hit as well, their only advantage was maintaining the steady production for more years… and getting more ABs because their competing catcher wasn’t as good.
Are you going to argue that the Blue Jays have never had a starting catcher in franchise history?
So miffed at the Red Sox off-season that I hope Hosmer lands in TB and makes them pay every time they meet. Are they serious about going into the season with that battery? If they don’t get Swanson I’m writing the season off…
You’re talking about a position while everybody else is referring to the actual evaluation of the talent.
You’d be correct to state that they could only play 2 at most at any given time so the Jays aren’t optimally situated to leverage current value, but having an inability to leverage value and lacking value are two tremendously different things.
Yoshida makes up for Bogaerts ? Are you kidding me. He has no experience in the Major Leagues. You lost JD Martinez and his production. You are counting on a rookie at first base. We already went through this a season ago in 2021 when they anointed Bobby Dalbac the position and that bombed last year! Your catching is mediocre at best and you do not have a shortstop or are you going to move Story over, then you need a second baseman. Hey Chaim, are you seriously depending on Chris Sale and James Paxton to be the top guys in the rotation ? Are you kidding me? You need starting pitching desperately and not 4 and 5 type guys. This team has major holes all over it and he is patting himself on the back for an untested Japanese League player. Bloom is pathetic as well as this team.
Henry should fire this guy now!
“Our roster isn’t complete yet, but as we build our club, we feel it’s important to give Triston a clear lane, and that carrying two left-handed hitting first basemen would leave us short in other areas. Given that, it’s important to do right by Eric and give him time to find his next opportunity. We knew when we first got him that this day would come at some point, and wanted to make sure we treated him right.”
How in God’s green world is he patting himself on the back?
You actually think Yoshida makes up for Bogaerts offense ? The good players are gone. Swanson signed with Cubs. You think he did a good job in the offseason here? Who plays second, Arroyo a guy who is hurt all the time, or do you move Kike there, then who plays centerfield? You have no top line starters. He built the bullpen up but you are never going to have leads! You depending on Sale and Paxton? Two guys who missed all of last year except a few games by Sale. Are you depending on Pivetta to be your top guy? Are you impressed with any of our rookie pitchers? Is Houke coming back from a back surgery? Are you going to move Whitlock back and forth from the bullpen again?
Now you anointed a rookie who struggled last year, Casas to man first base with Dalbac who should not be allowed anywhere near a baseball diamond with that hole in his swing. We have one of the worst productions of any team at first base last year. You think Story is good? A Coors field hitter ? He was one of the reasons this team got off to a horrid start last year.
You honestly think Bloom won the offseason here? This team is going to be awful this year. Bloom should be fired for this fiasco
You actually think Yoshida makes up for Bogaerts offense ? The good players are gone. Swanson signed with Cubs. You think he did a good job in the offseason here? Who plays second, Arroyo a guy who is hurt all the time, or do you move Kike there, then who plays centerfield? You have no top line starters. He built the bullpen up but you are never going to have leads! You depending on Sale and Paxton? Two guys who missed all of last year except a few games by Sale. Are you depending on Pivetta to be your top guy? Are you impressed with any of our rookie pitchers? Is Houke coming back from a back surgery? Are you going to move Whitlock back and forth from the bullpen again?
Now you anointed a rookie who struggled last year, Casas to man first base with Dalbac who should not be allowed anywhere near a baseball diamond with that hole in his swing. We have one of the worst productions of any team at first base last year. You think Story is good? A Coors field hitter ? He was one of the reasons this team got off to a horrid start last year.
You honestly think Bloom won the offseason here? This team is going to be awful this year. Bloom should be fired for this fiasco
Read the beginning of the article where it says he is going to make up the offense lost by Bogaerts. This team lost offense in JD Martinez and Bogaerts and you are depending on a player from
the Japanese Leagues who has never played in the majors before. You are depending on a rookie at first base in Casas? Didn’t you see Dalbac flop last year there ? Who plays second base Arroyo, a guy who is constantly hurt? Do you move Kike to second and then who plays Centerfield ? Sho pitches on this team as the 1 & 2 Paxton and Sale? Neither had pitched last year except Sale for a few starts. You going to sign Hill and Wacha again? Who is the starting catcher Reese McGuire and No Hit Wong as your backup? This team finished 5th last year and is worse this year. You have a Small Market Baseball Ops guy in a major baseball market acting like a beggar/pauper!
Its not surprising they couldn’t find a taker for Hosmer when he has a full no-trade clause and why give up anything, even a lotto ticket when they can sign him outright shortly after
Toronto’s problem is that no one is as desperate to trade for a catcher as they are desperate to trade one. I’ve read their fans on the internet who think there’s some great haul coming. Disappointment looms.
I think this might be the case. Who knows, somebody big might go down around the league in spring training and make there three even more valuable. Or one of the three catchers could get injured making it important to still have two on the roster.
Screenname
I totally agree on your concept of desperation. Jays fans I’ve interacted with think the Dbacks are desperate for a catcher. I’ve written what a low priority finding a backup catcher is for the Dbacks and the fact that they already have 3 catchers on their 40 man roster. But Jays fans desperately over sell and over hype their 3 catchers, thinking they can get one of the Dbacks premium CF. I just don’t see the two teams as good trade partners, if Jays management is as deluded as these fans.
Dude, you are the last person that should be commenting on other fanbases making ridiculous claims.
I don’t think they’re desperate to trade one though. Toronto doesn’t have a DH, and filled the holes they had already. They can use the DH spot for whichever of Kirk/Jansen isn’t catching and fill in with Moreno. They may prefer an extra outfielder but there is hardly a reason to be desperate
The Kiermaier signing is the all-out most confusing deal in recent memory for the Jays. They were forced to use a collection of bad/past-prime players to fill a lot of games/ABs last season and so to remedy that, they sign a guy that cannot stay healthy, cannot hit and has been on a steep defensive decline for the last three seasons. A guy that just came off major hip surgery from turf injuries…to play on more turf? A starting CF on a competitive team needs to play 140+ games which he cannot and will not do. Even as a 4th, he will have to play a lot of baseball and they could aim for him to play mostly on the road on grass but he’s been told he will start so RIP KK. Who they sign as their official 4th better be a reliable, healthy player that can play CF, that’s for sure. I love every other move so far, Swanson will bring balance to the late innings, Bassitt to the middle of the rotation so now let’s see how they fill the other holes.
Jays screwed up, got greedy, and are left holding the bag.
Heyman’s an idiot.
Please stop listening to him, MLBTR.