It’s been a Cardinals-heavy day in the news, with the team agreeing to re-sign Adam Wainwright for what will be his 18th Major League season. St. Louis also announced that a trio of coaches will not return for the 2023 season — one day after losing bench coach Skip Schumaker, who’ll become the new Marlins manager. Beyond that pair of headlines, president of baseball operations John Mozeliak held court with the Cardinals beat, revealing in an extensive press conference that he recently met in person with Nolan Arenado about the third baseman’s looming opt-out (link via Jeff Jones of the Belleville News-Democrat). Beyond that, Mozeliak pledged that the Cardinals’ payroll will increase and unsurprisingly acknowledged he’ll be on the lookout for a successor to Yadier Molina this offseason.
Chief among those details is the team’s recent meeting with Arenado, who can opt out of the remaining five years and $144MM on his contract this winter. Mozeliak indicated there’s a sense of optimism regarding a resolution on that front, though there’s nothing official between the two parties just yet.
A year ago, that opt-out provision was far from a lock to come into play. Arenado chose to forego an opt-out clause last winter, when he could’ve returned to the market and sought a larger guarantee than the six years and $179MM he had remaining on the contract. Arenado was coming off a strong season but far from his best year, having batted .255/.312/.494 in his first season following a trade from the Rockies.
One year can make quite a difference, however. A sensational 2022 campaign has Arenado among the front-runners for National League MVP honors (alongside teammate Paul Goldschmidt), and with $144MM remaining on the deal, an opt-out now looks far likelier. The nine-time Gold Glove winner and five-time Platinum Glover turned in a sensational .293/.358/.533 batting line with 30 home runs, 42 doubles, a triple, a career-low 11.6% strikeout rate and his typical brand of elite defense at the hot corner. Despite the fact that he’ll turn 32 next April, Arenado suddenly has an easy case to eclipse the remaining money on his contract.
Granted, it’s rare for players of this age to secure contracts of more than five years in length, although exceptions are often made for the game’s top stars. One need only look to this past March, when Freddie Freeman inked a six-year deal with the Dodgers — one that, as will be the case with Arenado, begins in his age-32 season. Even if the market were to draw a hard line at five years for Arenado, there’d surely be a greater annual value than his current $28.8MM waiting for him in free agency. Annual salaries in excess of $30MM have become increasingly common, and Arenado himself at one point held the record for position player AAV ($32.5MM). That AAV took a hit when the Cardinals tacked on an additional year and $15MM at the time of the trade — but also granted Arenado a second opt-out opportunity.
Since Arenado signed his extension, Anthony Rendon ($35MM), Mike Trout ($36MM), Carlos Correa ($35.1MM), Corey Seager ($32.5MM) Francisco Lindor ($34.1MM) have all inked deals with annual salaries equal to or in excess of Arenado’s original AAV (to say nothing of Gerrit Cole’s $36MM annual value with the Yankees and Max Scherzer’s $43.33MM with the Mets). On the heels of such a brilliant season, Arenado could well find an AAV in the mid-30s over a five- or six-year term.
Understandably, the Cardinals appear to have little interest in allowing things to reach that point. Arenado’s opt-out decision is due five days after the World Series draws to a close, but the Cardinals can spend the interim trying to persuade him to stay. Tacking on an additional year or perhaps restructuring the deal to pay him at an annual rate more commensurate with the sport’s top hitters could well be in play over the next couple weeks.
All of that dovetails with Mozeliak’s comments about a forthcoming payroll hike. The Cardinals already have $105MM in guaranteed salary between Arenado, Goldschmidt, Miles Mikolas, Steven Matz, Giovanny Gallegos, Paul DeJong and Drew VerHagen (though the Rockies are reportedly covering $21MM of Arenado’s 2023 salary under the terms of the trade). Whatever salary Wainwright agreed to will add to that figure, and MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz projects just shy of $40MM in salary for the team’s 11 arbitration-eligible players. There are some non-tender candidates within — Mozeliak mentioned Alex Reyes’ name when discussing looming 40-man roster decisions, per Jones — but the majority of that arbitration class is a lock to return.
That gives the Cardinals more than $150MM on the books before even factoring in a slate of pre-arbitration players to round out the payroll. Jones notes that last year’s payroll, following trade deadline acquisitions, clocked in around $170MM. Extending or restructuring Arenado’s contract won’t necessarily impact the 2023 payroll on its own — he’s owed $35MM and the Rockies are paying that $21MM to the Cardinals even if Arenado were to opt out — but there are clearly other needs to consider.
Catching help, as Mozeliak acknowledged, figures to be among the most critical needs. Molina, a franchise icon, has played the final game of his Major League career, but the win-now Cardinals unsurprisingly aren’t content to merely hand the reins over to Andrew Knizner or prospect Ivan Herrera. Jones notes that the team will likely be looking for a starting-caliber option and not a part-time player.
The free-agent market has a handful of starting options, headlined by longtime division rival Willson Contreras but also including Christian Vazquez and Omar Narvaez. On the trade market, Oakland’s Sean Murphy will be available as the A’s continue their rebuild, and the Blue Jays have a surplus at backstop with Danny Jansen, Alejandro Kirk and Gabriel Moreno all on the 40-man roster and capable of shouldering a starter’s workload at the MLB level. Other options, of course, will emerge.
With Wainwright back, the rotation doesn’t figure to be a dire need, though depth could be pursued. The Cards will have Wainwright, Mikolas, Matz, Jack Flaherty and Jordan Montgomery as the likely top five, with Dakota Hudson, Matthew Liberatore, Zack Thompson and Jake Woodford serving as depth. Mozeliak and his staff will still likely be on the hunt for upgrades at some combination of shortstop, outfield and designated hitter, however, as the Cardinals look to inject more force into the lineup. Bullpen help is a near-annual need for every contending club.
For the time being, now that Wainwright’s status has been resolved, all roads will point to Arenado. Whether he and the Cardinals are able to reach a middle ground will not only shape the long-term outlook of the organization as we know it but also the very fabric of the 2022-23 offseason. If Arenado were to reach free agency, he’d join the likes of Aaron Judge, Trea Turner and Correa atop another star-studded open market.
bucsfan0004
It would be stupid and greedy for Arenado to opt out of that sweet deal he has for the next 5 years.
seamaholic 2
Greedy, sure. Stupid, of course not. When (not if) he opts out or signs an extension he is guaranteed to sign a bigger contract, whether with the Cards or someone else. Why on earth would he not do that?
iH8PaperStraws
He is only guaranteed a bigger contract if he resigns with the cardinals before opting out. Otherwise, he is likely but not guaranteed. His age could scare off a lot of clubs. He is very reminiscent of Rendon when he signed with the Angels.
seamaholic 2
He’ll know that before his decision date. He already knows most likely. Think of it this way. If the Cards want him to opt in so badly, they’d certainly be willing to sign him to the same contract after he opts out. There is literally no down side for him, and lots of up.
avenger65
minus the injuries.
Sunday Lasagna
@seamaholic because he will sign an even better deal with the Cardinals before the opt out date to forego opting out, that’s why.
Cosmo2
I wouldn’t sign Arenado for much more than he’s already owed. How many more seasons like 2022 you really think he has left in him? And he’s bound to show his age at some point.
DonOsbourne
Ya, but the timing is perfect for Arenado. Cards have another unexpected coaching exodus and now Mo has to do something PR-wise. Throwing money at Arenado is likely to be popular. I’ve said it before. Mo is a natural born politician..
FrontOfficeStan
I’ve thought about responding to this multiple times with reasons why you’re wrong, but you’re probably right. He will perform at a very high level for 3-4 more seasons, after that who knows but the odds are father time will get him.
It’s hard for third basemen to stay elite into their upper 30s. Scott Rolen really tapered off after 32-33 or so. I guess there was Chipper Jones who still played really well until he retired. A lot of value comes from Arenado’s defense, so I would expect as he ages, his range will decline.
I love Arenado but not sure I would love to see a contract that adds another 2 years at a higher AAV. Not sure what they do here, maybe beef up the 2025 and 2026 amount?
avenger65
32 is not old even in baseball terms. His below par season in 2021 could be because he was adjusting to a new team. I think this year he showed the player that he is. Instead of the pessimistic additude of se posters, maybe they can be optimistic that he will continue to have seasons loke he did this season, hopefully with the Cardinals.
Ma4170
He already has at times, but he’s coming off a big year, and too many people look at “what have you done for me lately”… I agree I think 5/144 is fine and wouldn’t go beyond that
Cosmo2
32 is old in baseball terms. I don’t understand why so many fans don’t get this. Most players start rapid decline at age 31. This delusion that players don’t show their age until they are 35 or so is baseless. Arenado seems likely to age better than most but in general 32 is quite old for baseball.
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It’s a case by case basis type thing Cosmo.
avenger65
“The delusion that some players don’t show their age until 35” is not, as you say, delusional. Players keep themselves in better shape these days so they can back from injuries that much sooner. Which brings me to something that’bothered me about players in the past few years:they don’t play through injuries. I can recall three players on the IL because of injuries to their pinkies. Luis Robert couldn’play.through a sprained wrist. If he wasn’t already an established major leaguer I’m betting he would play through it. I played in the streets of Chicago. I broke a finger while catching. I didn’t stop playing. I found a couple of popsicle sticks and a rag. I made a splint, shoved my hand back into my mitt and kept playing because I loved playing the game.
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avenger, I have had similar injuries. I know precisely what you are saying. But I gotta give most of them the benefit of the doubt. I figure if they could play they would be. We can’t know for sure who is calling the shots. Maybe the FO demands that these guys sit a certain length of time based on their situation. Even if a player has an “injury” and is confident enough to say “I can play skip!” He doesn’t have impunity. The manager/FO has the final say.
JAG from CF
No it is NOT case by case…take a look at Baseball Reference and position player WAR:
2022 – 82 players accumulated 3.0 WAR or>, and
EIGHT of them were older than 31
Feel free to go back and look in the past few years or decades, it’s ALWAYS been the case – except during the steroid era (and it becomes obvious when that began in earnest when you examine production of players >age 31)
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JAG, take your meds pal.
Cosmo2
Do you not understand the concept of general trends? MOST players decline around 31. Something to take into account if you’re considering signing a player older than 30. Generally November is a cold month in NY. Generally players decline at 31. Is this to difficult for you to grasp? Yes, there are exceptions but USUALLY decline hits at 31. I was responding to someone who said 32 isn’t old for baseball. 32 is generally old for baseball. This is not difficult, I’m sorry.
Cosmo2
It is a delusion. Players stats generally decline well before 34. This is statistically a general fact. It’s a pretty obvious and apparent fact if you look at stats.
Cosmo2
JAG: thank you. You’re explaining it better than I am.
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Cosmo, who are you responding to? If me, I am too uninterested to reply…Next…
Cosmo2
Ummmm, but you DID reply. You DID reply, Trumbo.
Baseball Purist
*goldschmidt enters the room.
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Guess you just got me dead bang Cosmo. I meant reply as in “addressing your remarks” in your comment.
Cosmo2
Lol, who are the two idiots that liked a post responding to say they aren’t going to respond?
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English Cosmo….English buddy…..Please…
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You should probably shut your mouth about now Cosmo.
avenger65
zI think of players like Tim Anderson.He was ready to come back in mid-September, but instead he sat out the rest of the season. if the Sox were in contention, I wonder if that would have changed his mind.
avenger65
Verlander, Scherzer, Pujoles, Wainwright, etc.
Cosmo2
So Trumbo, after saying he wasn’t going to reply, replied four times, including 3 pure insults and then muted me. What a loser. Just because he doesn’t get the concept of generalizations.
Ma4170
It’s funny how people use the few exceptions to the rule to make a point and ignore the broader data… most players decline as they age into their mid 30s… some have 1-2 “bounceback” seasons if they’re lucky
I think the bigger delusion is to think many players still aren’t using some kind of banned substance to help w performance or injury recovery as they age… they’re just better at not getting caught as often (especially those whose performance dipped considerably for a couple of years and miraculously came back to levels even better than when younger)
Deleted Userr
Greedy? Son, this is a business. He has every right to squeeze every last dollar out of the Cardinals.
Skeptical
Business or not, it is still greed. Unfortunately, greed, one of Christianity’s seven deadly sins, is not condoned and encouraged in our society. Sorry, raised as an old school Christian.
Deleted Userr
Separation of church and state. Arenado might not leave STL for another team but he will at the very least use the opt-out to leverage them into giving him more years/AAV.
jbigz12
Arenado at this point can get them to tack on 2 more years at 30MM a year easily.
They’ll probably be open to it because as long as he doesn’t opt out they’ll get more cash from the hapless Rockies.
Deleted Userr
Is that true if the Cardinals renegotiate the contract? If so it was pretty stupid of the Rockies to not get it written in that if the Cardinals renegotiate the contract they’re on their own.
FrontOfficeStan
They get more cash even if he does opt out if I remember it right.
WubbaLubbaDubDub
So it’s a sin to exercise a contractual right that was negotiated in good faith and enter the market? Do “old school Christians” happily accept below market salaries because to accept what the market hears is a sin?
amk1920
Not when his hometown Dodgers need a 3B coming off an embarrassing NLDS exit
seamaholic 2
Justin Turner has another year of control and he turned out to have a great year. They could play him at DH however.
iH8PaperStraws
The dodgers have a $16mm club option on Justin Turner.
User 2079935927
LA Times thought he was coming to the Dodgers via trade last year.
Bill Platzke wrote about it.
seamaholic 2
For the record, the team he has said (long before he want to St Louis) he’d love to play for is the Yankees, not the Dodgers. For what it’s worth, which is probably nothing.
avenger65
How many stars can the Dodgers have before realizing it doesn’buy you a world series? If they add Judge, they might win 120 games next year and again not win the wd. It reminds me of when the Yankees loaded up on superstars (Reggie Jackson, etc.) and didn’t win the wd either.
Holy Cow!
The Yanks won a couple with Reggie.
avenger65
You’re right. Apologies.
GarryHarris
Nolan Gorman will be the Cards 3B if Nolan Arenado walks. I think they’ll be alright.
Moonlight Graham
Or Jordan Walker.
GarryHarris
Jordan Walker is being fast tracked but he might be moving away from 3B. He’s not very steady at 3B at this point but his bat and base running speed look promising.
Moonlight Graham
Send Nolan Gorman to the Blue Jays for Gabriel Moreno.
The Cards get their catcher, and the Jays get a badly needed lefty bat.
TheGreatBaseballMind
Arenado bats right-handed.
JeffreyChungus
But Gorman doesn’t
TheGreatBaseballMind
Ack! I am stupid. I read Gorman but processed Arenado. Thank you, FletcherFan69. And sorry, Moonlight Graham. Actually an interesting trade idea.
crshbng
Gorman doesn’t get moreno, try liberatore instead
Holy Cow!
Try Walker for Moreno. Now that is interesting.
crshbng
Interesting, but if the jays, and its a big if, move moreno, it will be for pitching. Sounds like the jays have no problem having 3 catchers on the mlb roster. Moreno is a converted infielder, and can play at 3rd or 2nd. Maybe even LF in a pinch. If they move him, its to adress one of their 3 biggest weaknesses, 1)pitching, 2) pitching, 3) pitching.
DonOsbourne
I’d trade Liberatore for Moreno in the blink of an eye. Done. I’ll throw in Drew VerHagen too. You like Chris Stratton?
crshbng
VerHagen and Stratton, nope. Maybe Thompson and or Wooford. Or maybe prospects, but Liberatore is a nice start.
DonOsbourne
Here’s my opinion. Blue Jays fans would end up happier with any of VerHagen, Stratton, Thompson, or Woodford over Liberatore. Liberatore will break your heart. You’ll want Moreno back. But….to each their own.
jbigz12
Matt Liberatore won’t get you Moreno or Kirk.
Jansen? Sure
Cardsfanatik redux
You’re not getting Walker for anyone on Torontos roster.
iH8PaperStraws
I’d help Walker pack his bags for Bo Bichette
Deleted Userr
Not that the Blue Jays would ever do this but Alek Manoah gets them Walker easily.
drasco036
I get Gorman is a highly regarded prospect but arrogantly implying the Cardinals won’t miss Arenado if he opts out and they cannot re-sign is extremely short sighted.
I’m not sure if you noticed it but that line up without Goldie and Arenado is not that good.
Holy Cow!
Even with them they will have a hard time meeting this year’s production.
seamaholic 2
They’d essentially be trading left sides of the infield. Arenado and de Jong/Edman-out-of-position for Gorman/Trea Turner or Gorman/Bogaerts or something. That’s not a loss at all, not least because it makes them younger. Much younger.
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Cardinals to pursue baseball players.
baseballpun
Big, if true.
drasco036
I don’t understand… everyone told me Arenado was a product of Coors Field…-
Sunday Lasagna
@Drascoo36. They weren’t altogether wrong, Arenado in his career to date has slashed .321/.376/.609 at Coors, .258/.319/.477 at Busch and .270/.328/.488 everywhere else. He is an absolute monster MVP level batter when hitting at coors and a solid all star level batter everywhere else.
seamaholic 2
That’s why park adjustments exist. He’s hit in St Louis (average over his two seasons) about as well as he hit in Colorado, once you use the park adjustment. Actually a bit better, which is typical for Rockies hitters who leave Colorado.
drasco036
Interesting you would use that argument the year that Arenado stands an excellent chance of winning the NL MVP.
DarkSide830
gotta wonder exactly what Arenado is going to get. Maybe more at the backend of his contract, but probably no more than the $35 at the front end, great player or not.
Holy Cow!
Yeah, I think they will give him an additional $15-20 million at the backend of the deal when he is making “just” $27 million and $15 million in the last couple of years of the contract.
seamaholic 2
Plus another year. Otherwise if I’m him I’m a no and I’ll take my chances on the market.
whiplash
Christian Vasquez will be available.
Samuel
I loved, respected and admired the Cardinals for decades. They continuously played Branch Rickey fundamental baseball, had a pipeline to the majors from a farm system that taught players how to play correctly, and the sum of their teams play always outperformed the individual players statistics.
Jeff Luhnow – an engineer – was brought in during the early 2000’s to build an analytic department. He and his department (including Mike Elias and Sig Mejdal) had some unbelievable drafts, as well as provided information to bring in players in trade, waiver wire, etc.
Astros owner Jim Crane was searching around for a Baseball Ops guy. Most people following MLB FO operations felt that Luhnow and his group were the brains behind the Cardinals success. Mr. Crane hired Luhnow away. Luthnow took Elias, Mejdal and implemented a high-tech Cardinal organization.
Somewhere in there John Mozeliak became the chief Cardinals Baseball Ops guy. While I didn’t understand what was happening with the Astros at the time, I could see that the Cardinals were getting away from the Branch Rickey style of play that they’d done for over half-a-century.
I admire the Astros as the best overall organization in MLB – one that took Branch Rickey’s style of team building (strong defense – particularly the catcher, pitching, a balance of hitters -RH/LH, guys that got on base, guys that knocked them in, the use of speed) and used high-tech equipment to go further in sophisticating coaching methods to maximize the players production.
For a long time I’ve watched John Mozeliak, yet have no idea what he’s trying to do – much the same as Cashman with the Yankees. Both have a lot of money to spend, and both build teams that fall a buck short.
The real St. Louis Cardinals have gone high-tech and play in Houston.
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Sam, is that why St. Louis hacked Houston back in 2014/2015? You are the computer guy….What did they stand to gain? Sounds like Houston had the goods..
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P.S. Sam, I was re-reading my comment and I was typing fast. Didn’t mean to come off so brash. Just wanted your insight.
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Sam, I appreciate you being so thorough. I am going to read this about 4-12 more times in order to properly ascertain it all….I am a layman after all…This was juicy thank you…I’ll follow up with ya later!
Samuel
TrumboJumbo;
LOL
I’m the one that comes off as brash. You come off as a loud guy having a lot of fun.
–
This was serious stuff. Am a retired computer person. I wasn’t there, and all I know is what was in the media…and the media in America that writes and talks about a subject usually knows nothing about it – only what people that want to build some sort of narrative tell them.
I do know that the Cardinals had some files ranking players – probably overseen by Sig Mejdal (he’s a physics whiz…ran the Astros drafts, and now runs the Orioles drafts). As a draft was approaching some Cardinals FO personnel wanted to see those rankings. The files disappeared – apparently the people that went to Houston took them.
Data ownership is complicated. There are different federal and state laws that are ever evolving. What it boils down to is that companies own the data and work that employees do – AS LONG AS they make them aware of it, AND put in measures to secure that data (ex-employees taking company data with them is a major problem).
I don’t know why the Cardinals couldn’t have kept that data via legal means. Had they taken routine steps such as having all employees sign a confidentiality agreement. They also should have taken “reasonable” (American law is based on “Reasonableness”) steps to assure that their employees could not export company data to a temporary medium. Very probably Luthnow and his people were the only ones there that knew anything basic about as to how computer systems worked.
The publicity of the disagreement got the MLB Commissionaire’s office involved. The commonality with this and numerous scandal’s – steroids, sign stealing using portable wi-fi devices, etc. – is that MLB seems to constantly be behind times in preserving the integrity of the game until a scandal breaks. However, it seems they’re getting better at it.
iH8PaperStraws
That’s not how it happened. The guy from Houston “hacked” into the cardinals system because he knew the username and password. He did jail time for the crime and Houston was penalized via loss international money and draft pics.
Samuel
guest678;
Not the way I heard it.
Eliteb43
You are wrong. Go do your research
Eliteb43
The CARDINALS employee went to jail. The CARDINALS were the ones who were penalized
Samuel
Department of Justice
Office of Public Affairs
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Monday, July 18, 2016
Former Cardinals Official Sentenced to Prison for Astros Computer Intrusions
The former director of Baseball Development for the St. Louis Cardinals has been ordered to federal prison following his conviction of accessing the Houston Astros’ computers without authorization, announced U.S. Attorney Kenneth Magidson for the Southern District of Texas and Special Agent in Charge Perrye K. Turner of the FBI. Christopher Correa, 36, of St. Louis, Missouri, pleaded guilty Jan. 8, to five counts of unauthorized access of a protected computer.
DonOsbourne
Unfortunately, that’s pretty much how I see it Sam. Luhnow was the brains. Mo is good, Luhnow is/was better.
The only argument I would make is that I mostly blame Matheny for moving away from a fundamental style of play. As soon as Shildt was hired, the fundamental execution improved dramatically. This years’ team was very strong in terms of defense, base running, doing the “little things”, and the young players who came up exhibited the same traits.
There are plenty of times where I think Mo’s moves are more about ego and vanity than wins and losses, but he has held the title for a long time and the wins keep piling up. Obviously everyone prefers pennants, but the regular season really is the ultimate test of roster construction.
CujoMarlin
Samuel – How do you think Mo and Randy Flores would fair if they tanked and were at the top of the for several years like the Astros? It is not fair to compare the two teams at least from a draft perspective.
Samuel
CujoMarlin;
The tanked thing is old and irrelevant.
The Astros started winning in 2015. In their 8th year of constant contention they’re in the WS again this year.
The immortal, legendary Theo Epstein tanked for 5 years. His team won a WS and was competitive for 3 years…they’ve been rebuilding for 3-4 years now.
Don’t dismiss what Jeff Luhnow did in Houston….and watch what Mike Elias, Sig Mejdal and others have done in Baltimore; because they have put together a remarkable organization and ML team.
It’s a sign of the decline of America that so many spend their lives dismissing the accomplishments of others, instead of learning from what they did and working to take that a step further.
Holy Cow!
I think it’s more like Theo tanked for three years, Cubs were competitive for six years, and Jed has been rebuilding for two years.
CujoMarlin
Sam – I am surprised you wrote that, which I infer to mean that you think thier draft position has nothing to do with Mr. Luhnow’s success. If that is accurate, then okay, that’s fine. Everyone has their opinion. Luhnow’s best draft pick in the first round when picking in the mid-to-late 20’s with STL is Colby Rasmus. The rest were a bunch of replacement level guys. Meanwhile, in HOU, he picked 1, 1, 1, 2 and 5 in 2012-2015. That produced Correa, Berman and Tucker. I contend this alone is a big factor in the success HOU has had. It isn’t the only factor, but you have a much better chance of finding multiple core players in the draft by drafting at the top for several years. Mo hasn’t had that luxury, but I suspect he could be as successful. His success later in the first round has been modest, but arguably better than Luhnow (in STL or HOU).
As far as the rest of the operation, obviously HOU has built a good team, but my comments have been limited to the draft, which is what I thought you were touting in your first message.
iH8PaperStraws
I see your points but I believe it was always LaRussa calling the shots. I think Luhnow studied TLR and took his foundation the HOU. Once Mozalak got the reigns he wanted to do it his own way almost out of spite to completely to the reverse of TLR. And the team has progressively gotten worse every year after 2011 as the TLR players cycled out. They luckily play in a perpetually bad division so they stil are in a playoff stop contention every year.
Samuel
guest678;
My point about Mr. Luhnow is that he took The Cardinals Way’ (really the ‘Branch Rickey Way’ – used by the Dodgers and Orioles as well) that he learned in St. Louis as the Cardinals were his only other baseball employer. Made it high tech and took it to Houston.
They play the exact same style of baseball. Defense first led by the Catcher – and who cares if he can hit…he’s there to run the game and work with the pitcher(s). Work to make the pitchers better. Strong fundamentals. Give the manager a roster with multiple ways to win a game.
Samuel
DonOsbourne;
MLB is a playoff league – like the other 3.
Roster construction includes flexibility. Players get hurt, have down years, etc. Come late July PoBO’s need to begin to make moves to fill the Post-Season roster. Some players in AAA and AA can contribute, but usually teams have to get players from other organizations.
How many times do people look back a few years later at the NFL, NBA, NHL, and/or MLB and cite a teams regular season record?
I believe the Cardinals are already too top heavy.
EricTheBat
arenado 6 years $200 million
seamaholic 2
Yup. About right. Maybe a bit rich but in the right ballpark.
CalcetinesBlancos
If he opts out, let him walk. Good excuse to get younger and use the money somewhere else.
seamaholic 2
Then he’s gone. He 100% will opt out.
avenger65
They should keep Arenado. Why get younger and use prospects when the team is good enough to contend again next year
PapiShango
Then if he’s gone that would all but guarantee they use that money to lure Contreras there. I have a feeling he’s going to be a Cardinal.
avenger65
I would love that! A cub going to their biggest rivals? As a Cardinal fan and a cub hater,I would enjoy that very much. Another reason is because it would help the cards win the division again.
TheGreatBaseballMind
Ack! I am stupid. I read Gorman but processed Arenado. Thank you, FletcherFan69. And sorry, Moonlight Graham. Actually an interesting trade idea.
zachary08
All about the stupid Cardinals, today you know there’s more teams
FrontOfficeStan
Don’t worry, when all the good FAs are getting signed it won’t be about the Cardinals.
gbs42
Cardinals making lots of news and getting lots of coverage because of it. Shocking! It’s almost like that’s how reporting works.
Did another team do something big that didn’t get covered?
toycannon
Here’s a catcher. Tom Murphy, along with Chris Flexen for Tyler O’Neill.
seamaholic 2
Get all the ex-Rockies!
Rsox
I think the Cards are happy to go into next season with O’Neill/Carlson/Nootbar in the Outfield. Also Murphy is 31 and a non-tender candidate for the Mariners so they could just wait and sign him if/when the Mariners cut him
Rsox
Vazquez is a good short term option. Narvaez as a platoon with Knizner. Or bring Carson Kelly back when Arizona non-tenders him
DonOsbourne
I’m advocating for Kelly and Narvaez.
bhambrave
Manny Pina is available.
msqboxer
I’m sure the meeting from Arenado’s side was the gauge if the Cardinals were going to spend top 10 franchise money which would be that $190M+. He’s in the worst division in baseball and having a shot at the playoffs every year for players like him is important.
avenger65
The AL central is the weakest division in baseball. The wild cards are never from the central and the division winner never gets past the first round of the PO.
iH8PaperStraws
The exact same can be said about the NL central. The AL central had three playoff teams in 2020.
avenger65
But none of them won a PO series, did they? (I’m asking. I don’t know.) I’m not sure the 2020 season counts for anything. And will the twins ever beat the Yankees?
gbs42
Both Central divisions are weak, and it’s not exactly a badge of honor worth arguing over.
Interim GM
But who will be on the coaching staff?
raulp
The early bird catches the worm
Codeeg
Lol may be just a gentlemens handshake but wonder if cardinals could agree to sign an extension after his current deal so Rockies keep bleeding part of his current contract.
seamaholic 2
Apparently only a very small bit of the $50m going from Denver to St Louis is affected by his opt out decision, Most of what’s remaining goes this year and in fact might be transferred before Arenado even opts out.
gbs42
$20M, $5M per year ’24-’27. That’s not nothing.
weaselpuppy
This is the obvious landing spot for Contreras, right?
Gorman will come around at 2b, pay Arenado his $5M a year increase
Walker will play OF as they move out/DH/bench bat the losers in the O’Neill/Carlson/Burleson/Nootbar/Yepez /Donovan logjam over the first half of 23
Scary lineup, good pen and starters that can get the job done. but maybe need an Ace on top to make it competitive with LA/NYY/Hou/NYM etc
DonOsbourne
No way on Contreras. Gorman is unlikely to stick at 2B. The Cardinals like leather. Contreras and Gorman don’t offer enough.
seamaholic 2
If they like leather they sure don’t like Gorman at 2B. That would be Edman’s spot, with a new SS, which is the direction I expect them to take.
avenger65
Correa would look nice in a cards uniform.
88dodgers
Friedman will pounce at this opportunity,.
positively_broad_st
Arenado is scheduled to make salaries of $35M, $35M, $32M, $27M and $15M. I wonder if he’ll accept making all five seasons $35M per season, plus add an option for $20-$25M with a buyout of $10M. This would increase his guarantee up another $41M.
bpskelly
My feeling is if they have no intent of really letting Gorman play 2nd base, they should trade him.
His upside power is obvious, he’s less than defensively at 2nd base, he’s a natural 3rd baseman. But most importantly is is power.
I can’t guess as to what way the Cardinals are going with what and where — I’d trade for Sean Murphy as soon as it’s viable to do so — and whom they won’t are will sign.
They need another core player and I believe they can spend to do so. However, that would be completely out of character. I’d go after Correa or Turner personally. The outfielder they should have sign was last year — Schwarber. But obviously that ship / HR ball has sailed and is now in the World Series.
Samuel
bpskelly;
Agree about Murphy, although that will cost a few top prospects. Christian Vázquez would work, but he’s 31 and probably needs a strong back-up to catch at least once a week.
However, while I believe SS is a major position – getting one of the top SS’s on a multi-year contract will make that team dangerously top heavy (actually, they already are), resulting in having to play secondary players at times (as they now have to do at SS). You want a glove – get Newman from the Pirates.
Pitching is the name of the game. I’d look to improve there. If SS remains a problem they can make an in-season trade in July-August with a team falling out of contention.
SimbaHOF2019
I think Gorman showed he was athletic enough to play 2nd. Just hasnt had enough time there. Has a cannon.
Ma4170
Would they get a comp pick if he opts out?
TrillionaireTeamOperator
I think it gets restructured with a year tacked on and he stays with the Cards. 5 years/$144M will become 5 years/$175M or 6 years/$200M- basically he’s going to want his current day salary of $35M to become the AAV across the whole of the contract, plus a year at a discounted rate, just like the last deal, but with additional money even for a discount. 5 years at $35M flat and a 6th year at $25M instead of $15M in the 5th year like his current deal. I think that gets it done and that’s what he’s effectively looking for. It’s not much of a bump in salary year to year, but it’s an additional $31M over the same period of time and an additional $56M overall, which are both significant additional money to an individual in the prime of their earning years.
Roberto Gee
I suspect Christian Vasquez will be the Cards’ 2023 #1 catcher.
He’s got a good reputation in Boston, his hitting had come around the past few years, when younger he had a cannon (and now his arm is ok to good), and he’s a friend and protege of Yadier Molina, which can’t hurt if he wants to sign with St.L.
iH8PaperStraws
I’ve always heard Arenado want to play on a team that has a real chance to win the WS. I think after two years, he has realized the Cardinals aren’t that. The ‘21 team was better than the ‘22 team, but the NL central was also strong that year. And asking as Mozalak is in charge the ‘23 team will be worse than the ‘22. Couple that with the coaches leaving, the inevitable decline of Arenado’s ability, it isn’t hard to see him leaving while he can still perform and pick his destination where he believes he’ll have the best chance at the WS.
dano62
He’d be doing them a favour by exercising that opt-out; team needs a shakeup in a big way. That rotation is nowhere near what we saw in the league championships, and doubling down on a 32-year old third baseman.