With Alejandro Kirk, Danny Jansen, and top prospect Gabriel Moreno all vying for playing time in 2023, there has been constant speculation over which of these catchers could be dealt to help the Blue Jays address other needs. However, a trade isn’t necessarily a sure thing, as one (at least temporary) answer could be to move Moreno out from behind the plate, as noted by Shi Davidi in a piece for Baseball America. Moreno played in a handful of games at first and third base in the minors, and the final game of the Blue Jays’ 2022 season saw him play as a second baseman and left fielder for the first time in his pro career.
“We have to be open to everything. That’s why you’ve seen him play in different positions,” Toronto GM Ross Atkins told Davidi and other reporters. “But we have to be open to any way to maximize our 40-man roster at this point, and (catching) is clearly an area of depth.”
A catcher athletic enough to play other positions carries extra value, and depending on how well Moreno adapts, his ultimate future might not even be behind the plate. For instance, the Diamondbacks find themselves looking for catching help since former catcher-of-the-future Daulton Varsho has delivered such strong glovework in the outfield. Finding a way to fit Moreno, Kirk, and Jansen into the same lineup would be a boon for the Jays, as Moreno doesn’t have much left to prove at Triple-A. Returning Moreno to the minors “is not our best outcome, most likely, given his progress,” Atkins said.
More from around the AL East…
- Orioles GM Mike Elias has already stated that his team plans to spend more in 2023, though the size and nature of the payroll boost will naturally only be determined as the offseason progresses. Not all of the Orioles’ expenditures would have to be on new talent, as The Baltimore Sun’s Nathan Ruiz opines that “arguably no move made this winter would benefit [the team’s] future more than ensuring [Adley] Rutschman is a part of it.” Locking up Rutschman to a big multi-year extension would follow the pattern of teams looking to lock up star young talents, as we’ve seen with the Mariners’ Julio Rodriguez and the Braves’ Michael Harris II and Spencer Strider just within the last couple of months. There isn’t necessarily any rush for the O’s to make a deal since Rutschman only just finished his rookie season, yet extending the catcher or any of Baltimore’s many up-and-coming young stars would seem like a logical next step in the front office’s process.
- The Red Sox are one of many teams facing some tough 40-man roster decisions this winter, and NBC Sports Boston’s John Tomase takes a look at some of the prospects under consideration to receive roster spots. Some decisions are easier than others, as shortstop/center fielder Ceddanne Rafaela will certainly be added to the 40-man following a great season at the high-A and Double-A levels. Rafaela hit .299/.342/.539 with 21 homers and 28 steals over 522 combined plate appearances at the two levels in 2022, and also flashed some excellent defense at multiple positions.
Logistics Guy
I hope that Baltimore Orioles follow the same foot steps that Atlanta Braves follow. And that adding free agent only to complete your roster.
Not to use FA as a way to get quick wins. The O’s are about 2 years away from be a other good club In AL East
hiflew
They just finished 7th in the AL. They are not 2 years away. Next year could be their time. Especially if Judge opts to go elsewhere.
jdgoat
And now the league is going to be using a balanced schedule. They probably would have won the central and finished second in the west had they been in those divisions.
Fever Pitch Guy
jd – Yep, and let’s not forget the O’s lost two of their better players at the trade deadline including an All-Star closer and clubhouse leader.
If the O’s had added at the deadline, or even just kept what they had, they likely would have made the postseason.
AverageCommenter
Jd: Red Sox fall into a similar boat in that regard
LordD99
The balanced schedule could make it more difficult for AL Central teams to fluff up their records.
RegularEd 2
Bautista filled the Orioles closer role just fine.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
O’s nearly made the postseason so how are they two years away. As a Sox fan, the O’s give us a bigger headache in the East more than any team not named the Blue Jays.
miltpappas
Sox were 13-25 against NY and Tampa.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Yes they lost to everyone in the East but we were like 5 and 14 against Toronto and the Orioles played us pretty tough for being expected to be a last place team.
rocky7
Opps! Always the narrative!
hiflew
What some teams are not understanding is that for the majority of catchers, their most value IS behind the plate. A good hitting catcher stands out as an asset. You move him to the outfield or corner infield and he is generally middle-of-the-pack at best. You’d get much better valiue by trading a catcher to a needy team.
Poster formerly known as . . .
I’m confident that the professionals in MLB front offices understand how to appraise positional value.
For a recent example of a converted catcher who’s been more valuable elsewhere, I’ll mention Isiah Kiner-Falefa, who won a Gold Glove at third base. For past examples, I’ll save myself some typing with cut-and-paste:
‘The proponents for moving a catcher out from behind the plate point to successful conversions from the past. At the age of 28, Cardinals’ slugger Joe Torre looked like he was in decline, having posted his two worst seasons since becoming a regular catcher in 1963. Torre spent most of the 1969 season as a first baseman, then took up third base on a part-time basis in 1970. A year after the switch, he had his best season, winning the 1971 NL MVP Award with a .363/.421/.555 performance. Torre would remain a productive hitter through 1974.
‘Some guys move out from behind the plate much earlier in their careers. Dale Murphy came up with the Braves as a catcher, playing 85 games behind the plate in his first four seasons. By 1980, though, it was clear that Murphy’s future was in fair territory, not foul. The Braves made him their primary center fielder in 1980, then watched as he became the best player in baseball, winning back-to-back MVP Awards in 1982 and 1983.
. . .
‘More recently, B.J. Surhoff, Todd Zeile, and Craig Biggio gave up catching at a young age. Surhoff went on have a long career as a third baseman and left fielder, while Biggio has built a reasonable Hall of Fame case as a cornerstone second baseman for the Astros for the last 10 years. Zeile has been a workmanlike corner infielder for a decade.’
espn.com/mlb/columns/bp/1363304.html
KamKid
You’re right on front offices generally being better than most fans and writers at assessing talent. But I’m with hiflew on this one. A bat first catcher who is not a great catcher moving out from behind the plate makes sense. But in the case of Moreno who’s at the top of prospect lists because of his defensive tools behind the plate, I don’t see a scenario where there’s more value to the Jays to turn him into a bench utility player at a non premium position than to trade him while he’s one of the top prospects in the league, or at least trade one of the other catchers so he’s at least the backup catcher among the other positions he can play to get him in the lineup.
Poster formerly known as . . .
“I don’t see a scenario where there’s more value to the Jays to turn him into a bench utility player at a non premium position than to trade him while he’s one of the top prospects in the league”
KamKid, depending on the team’s needs, trading an elite catcher could easily be a justifiable move that upgrades the team as a whole. I have no argument with that. One can’t evaluate players without considering how they fit in the context of a roster (although plenty of people do).
KamKid
The context of the roster is a big one for the Jays. Jansen is their most advanced catcher. Moving him ahead of their last chance to win with a few of their important players seems risky. Especially given Kirk doesn’t catch a big workload. Plus, with just two arb years left, you are more likely trading him to a team who is more likely to give you prospects in return and the Jays are kind of trying to win now.
Kirk is maybe one of the most important hitters in the lineup because he offers a different approach in a lineup that too often can feature similar types of hitters. He’s improving defensively but still seems unable to handle a big catcher’s workload so he’s more of a DH/backup catcher. That’s fine if not for 33 year old Springer finishing the season with a concussion, shoulder injury, and needing surgery to get rid of bone spurs in his throwing elbow. I’m not sure how many DH PAs will be available to Kirk or others next year and beyond.
Moreno is the least advanced in terms of handling a staff, but he’s got the highest ceiling defensively and is ready now with a full six years of control. That’s pretty important for sustainability given the Jays don’t really have any position player prospects of note that have any combination of floor and ceiling likely to graduate to the majors in the next couple of years.
I can see them getting stuck in not wanting to make that decision because all of them come with downside for at least one of their goals. Doing nothing and forcing the best long term catcher off the position because the two others who are both worthy of the lion’s share of playing time can’t play another position just seems like a poor outcome to me. Shi Davidi is right that they don’t have to trade a catcher and probably don’t want to. But it’s an obvious route to addressing other needs and without many headlining type prospects for trade and an escalating payroll, it’s probably their best one.
hiflew
Thanks for those “recent” examples from 30 years ago. I did say generally. I didn’t say it was impossible. But considering you listed 5 examples from a 50 year period, I think I am going to stick with my original opinion.
Poster formerly known as . . .
‘Thanks for those “recent” examples from 30 years ago.’
I mentioned Kiner-Falefa, who’s the Yankees’ starting shortstop right now.
Two more examples of converted catchers: Carlos Delgado and Eddie Murray, the latter a Hall of Fame inductee. Neither were middle-of-the-pack at their positions.
I do agree that trading a catcher to fill a team’s other needs is a viable option. And I don’t dispute that, in the absence of that option, a catcher who’s above-average on both sides of the ball is more valuable at that position than if he were middle-of-the-pack elsewhere. But, again, I’m confident that front offices are aware of that and organize their rosters accordingly. I doubt that it’s for lack of understanding that they convert a catcher to a different position.
Poster formerly known as . . .
P.S.
Kenley Jansen is another converted catcher who’s still around.
desertball
Kyle Farmer of the Reds. Came up as a C in Dodgers Org
JoeBrady
But all that is not quite the same as the author’s point. Those players simply switched positions. They didn’t add value by being flexible. I know some team will DH a catcher occasionally, but how many catchers spend their off-days playing a skill position?
Poster formerly known as . . .
“Those players simply switched positions. They didn’t add value by being flexible.”
Murphy didn’t increase his value with back-to-back MVP awards?
hiflew
He didn’t catch a single game in his back to back MVP seasons. How was that flexible?
Poster formerly known as . . .
I don’t know what JoeBrady meant by “being flexible,” but I assumed he was talking about their shifting from catcher to different positions. I said nothing about Murphy being flexible after he changed positions. He was flexible in that he was able to convert to center field. That’s pretty flexible. Maybe not as flexible as Kenley Jansen converting from catcher to a top-tier closer — but still pretty flexible.
JoeBrady
Sure, but that has nothing to do with increasing his value by being more flexible. You’re either a catcher, or you aren’t. You don’t really add any value by being a catcher that can play 3rd for ten games.
JoeBrady
That’s pretty flexible.
===========================
No, it is not being flexible because he cannot play catcher. Flexibility means being able to play multiple positions. What you’re referring to is nothing more than a position switch.
How many catchers have been a team’s primary catcher (say 100+ GS), and also played 15 games at anything else besides 1B or DH?
Poster formerly known as . . .
The author of the article, Mr. Polishuk, spoke of a catcher playing other positions simultaneously. I didn’t. I simply addressed the notion that a player who’s capable of serving as a backstop couldn’t be more valuable if moved to a different position.
If one isn’t athletically flexible, one can’t function effectively at more than one position. If being able to function as a viable catcher and then switch to being a top-tier reliever isn’t flexibility, I don’t what is.
Poster formerly known as . . .
“How many catchers have been a team’s primary catcher (say 100+ GS), and also played 15 games at anything else besides 1B or DH?”
You seem to be saying that being able to play both catcher and first base doesn’t require flexibility. Mike Piazza, for one, couldn’t. Playing first base is very different from catching.
JoeBrady
hiflew2 hours ago
What some teams are not understanding is that for the majority of catchers, their most value IS behind the plate.
====================================
“A catcher athletic enough to play other positions carries extra value,”
I was going to say something similar. If you are good enough defensively to play catcher, then you play catcher. Varsho gets mentioned, but pretty much stopped playing catcher in maybe June. Guys like Posey hit well enough to give your regular 1B a little rest, but I almost never see a catcher that will catch 120x and play a skill position for another 20.
More flexibility is always better than less, but I think 98% of a catcher’s value is simply catching. As a RS fan, I wouldn’t expect us to pay extra for a catcher because he can play 10 games at 3rd.
Happyfoolsteve
Locking up Rutchsman and possibly Gunnar Henderson would make so much sense for the O’s. They definitely have the funds and both players are good fits. They have the plate discipline their lineup desperately needs, they hustle, play hard and they’re quality people. Follow them in the lineup with a run producer like Jose Abreu or JD Martinez and watch the O’s take off.
Edp007
No you don’t want old and slow declining dh’s that clog the lineup spot … Os needs younger talent with upside
Happyfoolsteve
I agree and they have young talent with upside. But I also think they need a proven veteran bat. Maybe not Abreu or Martinez, but someone who has been consistently clutch.
Edp007
Correa
C Yards Jeff
Extend Mullins too. Locking him up long term after a down year offensively, gets him cheap?
Yanks4life22
There really is no excuse for Baltimore not to spend and compete next year. The talent is there, they just need some complimentary pieces to work with now. They honestly should have been in the playoffs this year but it was as if they were actively trying to avoid them by trading off their assets while being a couple games out.
AverageCommenter
I imagine the concern is not wanting to make the push too early and lose too much in trades. I suspect they mostly lean into FA rather than trades
miltpappas
The Orioles don’t need to “sell” their players on the team’s direction. They have to somehow convince a player that living in the area of that horrendous hellhole called Baltimore will be worth the headaches.
JoeBrady
That’s what car services are for. The Yankees play in the South Bronx, but I doubt any of the players actually live there. And it’s not like folks don’t play for Detroit, Chicago, StL, etc.
Melchez17
The mighty al East… Hmm… Could they all be eliminated from post season? Will the mighty Yankees lose to the lowly AL Central Guardians?
Hey, at least the east had 3 in the playoffs. Nice…
Poster formerly known as . . .
What was “lowly” about the Guardians? They had the 7th-best record in the majors, tied with the Blue Jays. Their pitching staff was sixth in ERA.
Melchez17
Lowly AL Central
Poster formerly known as . . .
The Guardians had a .500 W-L% vs. >.500 teams, which is more than the Blue Jays, the Rays, the Cardinals or the Phillies can say.
Dustyslambchops23
Didn’t the Guardians have the last amount of games Vs +.500 teams in the entire league? I believe it was only 50 games, that is certainly a factor
Poster formerly known as . . .
It was 68 games. The White Sox had 67. Your point is valid, that it’s a factor. But I think the fact that they didn’t have a losing record vs. winning teams is relevant too, and likewise that they won the season series vs. the Blue Jays and Rays.
User 3595123227
The Orioles will not be spending like some people think they will. They will start off griping about budget restraints then explain how they wouldn’t spend because they couldn’t find “the right fit for what we are trying to do here.” They’ve kept onfield payroll at the bare minimum for awhile under the guise of complete tear down and rebuild. Yeah they are coming back to life but wait until the middle of February and see what they did during the winter.
jbigz12
I hope the orioles don’t do too much this off-season. There’s still young guys to figure out. We need another high leverage reliever and a TOR starter.
That’s all I want the team to do. Let the young guys fill in the rest.
User 3595123227
If they add the right pieces they will be a pretty good team. I’m not talking no big time free agents either. They need to compliment these younger guys with a few guys that have been around the block. I question their want to do it.
jnorthey
As a Jay fan I’ve seen a few C to other position changes over the years, such as Delgado, Sprague, and Phelps. Meanwhile WS MVP Borders converted from 3B to C. Often players show they have the skills for a position and a team tries them there and later learn he is better elsewhere. With Kirk who is limited to C-DH Moreno pretty much has to be traded or moved to another position. Just the way it is.
Darthyen
Why would you move a high quality catcher out from the position when the market is far from flush with them? Also they need another catcher to work with Kirk and Moreno fits that bill perfectly.
The Blue Jays need to move Jansen now while his value is high (from his offense) because his defense is no where near what the Blue Jays brass say it is. Jansen actually draws poor defensive marks in most defensive categories.
There is a reason that Ross Atkins said in late June “We value our catchers more than others” well he wasn’t talking about the all star Kirk or number 5 overall ranked prospect (at that time) Gabriel Moreno so that leaves Jansen and Collins. They thought so much of Collins they DFAed him.
jnorthey
I think you answered why in your response – the Jays value their own catchers higher than others do thus Jansen wouldn’t be valued as highly by others thus making him a tougher trade than Moreno or Kirk would be. Kirk would be tough to deal as he is locked in with the team ace Manoah (has caught all but 1 or 2 of his starts I think). Moreno has TONS of value in the trade market potentially (strong arm, highly rated with 6 years of team control to go with a solid bat). It’ll be interesting to see what happens. But if no deal happens then Moreno needs to play in LF/3B/2B/1B/wherever to get playing time in the majors. The Jays need an upgrade in LF (Gurriel isn’t all that) and backups at 3B/1B (Biggio isn’t a good choice for that) which Moreno could fill. Rotate him around LF/3B/1B/DH/C and you should get him a lot of PA (mix into 2B/RF and maybe even CF too – really SS & P are the only spots I can’t see him playing)..
Darthyen
We will have to disagree. I think Biggio needs more consistent playing time and he will be the Blue Jays version of Ben Zobrist. Playing
Jansen behind the plate is a mistake for the Blue Jays as he does not get the pitchers as deep into games as the other catchers……..maybe due to his poor pitch framing (causing more pitches to be thrown) or his poor game calling, not to mention his poor fielding percentage, his 7 errors in only 63 games or his way to many catcher interference….especially at key moments..
Taking a really good defensive catcher like Moreno and putting him in the outfield where outfielders are a dime a dozen is a hugh mistake.!!! The Blue Jays already have locks at first,and third along with three players fighting for at bats at second. So moving Moreno away from catcher full time makes no sense.
They should just trade Jansen and watch him slowly disappear from baseball ala JPA, Russ Adams, Brett Lawry and so many others the Jays tend to over rate and hang on to way to long.
ARC 2
Red Sox looks like the team in the east on a big downfall next year. Unless they spend money on a few free agents it will be a long year. Not much left of quality players on the team.
Melchez17
Red Sox future depends on if Bogaerts walks. If they can keep him, extend Devers then sign some veteran pitching and they are back in it.
YankeesBleacherCreature
They also have to address their bullpen.
Bruin1012
YankeesBleacher they have to one of the two with pitching. Bullpens can vary greatly year to year. Boston has the makings of an real solid pen with Whitlock, Houck, Schreiber and Barnes. If they think the free agent pitchers are easier to address with relievers and they think Whitlock and Houck can be stretched out as starters then they can go that route. I think they should try and sign a guy like Bassitt and then make a run at tor arm. The bullpen will get better if it is used less if the starters go more then 4 innings by default.
rhswanzey
The NLCS is going to feature teams with 89 and 87 wins. I think the Red Sox don’t have to grab headlines. They need – after resigning Xander – to add a starting outfielder and a couple of pitchers. Getting healthier will go a long way. They need to be 10-15 wins better, it’s not like they’re trying to go from 62 wins to 92.
jnorthey
Except the Sox have this bad habit of being really good one year, really bad the next lately. At least it seems that way. 15+ out in 2022, 2020, 2019 but in the playoffs in 2021, winning the WS in 2018. The most variable team around. As a Jays fan I’d love them to go into an extended slump but odds are against it.
JoeBrady
They’ve only been “really bad” twice, if that. In 2012, they played .426, but they were over .500 at the trade deadline and decided to dump Gonzo, Beckett & Crawford. It was a decent team otherwise.
2014 was pretty much a wash the entire season, but that was when we were bridging to Bogaerts, Betts, JBJ, and Vazquez.
SportsFan0000
Red Sox are letting their free agents walk: Xander Bogaerts, Rafael Devers.
They are tanking for high draft picks.
They already drafted Marcelo Mayer for SS.
Next Draft they go for another hitter.
Boom!
Replacing both Bogaerts and Devers with newly drafted players.
The Red Sox could easily be very competitive every year.
It is the Red Sox way
Be competitive. wins a few Division titles and a World Series, then tank for draft picks.
They do it ever time they win a title in the last 10+ years.
BashBroJoe
Orioles should be on Pablo Lopez or one of the Marlins other young pitchers. Santander is a great fit for Miami. Shouldn’t be too hard to figure out a deal. Also, maybe add an Andrew Chafin if he opts out. 2nd base is a need. Vavra is better suited as a utility guy. Maybe they believe Westburg is ready for reps next year. If not, a veteran for a year like Adam Frazier. Mateo deserves to stay at SS. Outfield is fine especially with Cowser on the way. Heston finally playing and on the way. Stowers can get a shot to prove himself. Also wouldn’t mind JD Martinez coming in. Nice veteran leader. O’s shouldn’t really bust the bank yet imo. Rodon would be nice though. 4/100 is the best I’d do there. Won’t get it done though.
jnorthey
The O’s are where the Jays were after 2019 – the pieces are coming up (Jays were Bo Bichette & Vlad Guerrero) so it is time to start filling in the obvious holes the system won’t fill. One big free agent to gain confidence for the kids and put the team in a position to sneak into the playoffs (ala the Jays in 2020 with Ryu) would be good for them. Going nuts and signing, say, Aaron Judge wouldn’t be the wise move though. Their #1 focus still needs to be on bringing up the kids and letting them play.
BashBroJoe
I agree. Just think the acquisition should be pitching. These short stops and their 35-40 mill a year just isn’t needed right now. JD would be great for this team and Segura would be awesome for a year. Not huge signings but I think the impact would be phenomenal. Other than that I’d check in with the Marlins pitchers and Rodons market. Eovaldi is an option. Bassitt is a good fit. Lyles would be fine to bring back. Bullpen piece or two if it makes sense. Don’t see the splash on free agent market that makes sense unless the price is right. Trade market possibly.
Rsox
Rafaela could play his way on to the Red Sox roster next season. Especially if Bogaerts leaves.
Jays probably trade Jansen. Kirk hits better and can DH more than Catch and selling Moreno would be silly unless a team is willing to pay top dollar in trade
cgallant
I don’t see low level top prospects as being targets in the rule 5 draft. Red Sox shouldn’t have much problem protecting theirs.
AverageCommenter
Agreed, it’s very hard, even for a non competing team, to hold on to someone who hasn’t played above a-ball on an MLB roster all year.
MLB-1971
Cgallant – Reggie Harris was a first round draft choice by the Red Sox, and was drafted in Rule 5 in 1990 by Oakland even though he had not pitched above A ball. He had one good year (1990). He pitched very well against the Red Sox that year. He pitch one more year with Oakland, and he finished his career with a -0.1 WAR. He is the only Red Sox player that I recall drafted away from the Red Sox who had never at least reached at least AA.
UWPSUPERFAN77
Best 2 combined catchers in BB! One should be traded for a lot in return. Bring the prospect up as depth. Do not waste either all star quality catcher on the bench. They both deserve to play 140 games!
UWPSUPERFAN77
Sorry!: I was talking about Toronto in my previous comment!
SportsFan0000
Where are all the bitter Red Sox Dombrowski haters now?!
Those who were scapegoating DD for Red Sox problems
after Dombrowski won multiple Division Titles and
a World Series in Boston?!
Let me be the first to tell you “I told you so”.
Dombrowski is a winner whose teams just win, win, win whichever Team/City/Front Office he leads.
Just Two years ago, Dombrowski took over a Phillies team struggling to play 500 ball.
Many were saying the Phillies rebuild was a failure and they should tear it down, again.
Dombrowski fixed one of the worst bullpens in baseball.
Dombrowski convinced JT Realmuto to sign a contract extension.
Dombrowski beefed up the rotation, the bullpen the OF with trades and free agent signings. Dombrowski traded for young Angels CF and rising star Brandon Marsh.
Dombrowski did not gut the farm system. He gave up one top prospect in catcher O’hoppe, but refused to deal the Phillies 3 top pitching prospects.
Dombrowski signed Schwarver and Castellanos.(Realmuto has the catching job locked up).
Dombrowski reorganized the Phillies Front Office, Scouting, Drafting, Player Development and Field Manager.
And, Dombrowski moved on from Joe Girardi, Didi Gregorious, CF Herrrea and others.
Dombrowski hired a new Manager Rob Thomson.to change the culture, to play the Phillies young players, to get the players all on the same page, relaxed and producing,
Now the Phillies are in the NLCS and only 4 wins away from the 2022 World Series?!
Dombrowski can write his own ticket. Any team would be happy to have Dombrowski leading their Front Office.
User 1580013680
Y