Click here to read a transcript of Thursday’s chat with MLBTR’s Steve Adams.
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By Steve Adams | at
Click here to read a transcript of Thursday’s chat with MLBTR’s Steve Adams.
MLB Trade Rumors is not affiliated with Major League Baseball, MLB or MLB.com
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It’s INSANE to think that home run totals are affected by anything as much or more than steroids (except maybe segregation). From 1998-2001 you had 6 instances of a player topping 60 homers (and hitting 70+). In 120+ years of history you had 2 total instances of a player reaching 60. Give me a break.
Which is why you only compare baseball players to their contemporaries. I don’t like the idea of “chasing history” because baseball in 1933 is completely different from baseball in 2022. Barry Bonds was significantly better than his contemporaries…even those on steroids.
I have nothing against him being in the HOF. And whether you consider Ruth or Maris or Bonds or Judge (if he gets there) to be the “true” single season HR king is a matter of personal opinion and is ultimately meaningless. But the notion that the steroids didn’t matter because everyone was juicing, or people cheated in the past before, or ballpark size makes a bigger difference, or the type of ball makes a bigger difference….the eras keep changing but one thing remains constant: Babe Ruth is the only player to hit 60 homeruns in 154 games without using steroids (that we know of) and Roger Maris is the only player to eclipse that, in 162 games, without using steroids (that we know of). Yet during the height of the steroid era, the 60-homer threshold was eclipsed 6 times in three years.
Everyone can have their own opinion on steroid use but I take issue with pretending that its impact is overstated.
Also, it was 6 times in 4 years (1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001).
Yes. I agree with you and to some extent that’s what I meant. Breaking 60 in an era where multiple people broke 60 is less impressive than breaking 60 when everyone else only hit in the 40s.
Really now. Maris is the rightful single season HR record holder and Aaron holds the career record.
Done! Full stop!
All time high in HR, in both leagues was in 2019 and it wasn’t even close. I understand why people are upset about changing the ball every year. It definitely made a big difference in the league wide statistics. I think steroids required players to stay in the gym to maximize the results and the individual statistics show that.
Eras do change, and we are in an era where more players are purposely trying to hit homers (sometimes that’s all they’re doing) and ballparks are smaller than they used to be, and the ball changes, etc. But you aren’t seeing anyone flirting with 70 homers. Judge may well get past 60 but that guy is clearly a freak of nature. If they didn’t have drug testing in place I would almost have to assume he’s chugging HGH by the gallon.
I just don’t think you can compare 2019 to 1999 and come to the conclusion that the steroid use in the late 90s/early 2000s isn’t the sole reason Maris’s record was broken.
Baseball was using a juiced ball as well… I believe it had a much bigger factor than the steroids. Players were using steroids in the 80s as well and never broke the home run record… according to canseco, who has been proven right again and again, Big Mac was using it his entire career and didn’t come close to the record until he hit 70.
It’s not the sole reason, pun. Expansion had a lot to do with it, too.
Baseball parks are smaller than they were in the era of multi-use stadiums, but for the most part, aren’t smaller that they were for the first part of the 20th century. The only reason parks are smaller now is because they saw the mistake of the big stadiums of the ’60s, and are trying to duplicate the parks from the golden age of baseball.
almost entire career, maybe.
remember, jose in his book said about 1987, if mac was on something, he (canseco) didn’t know (since he only started injecting mac in 1988).
Rafael Palmeiero wasn’t muscular, yet steroids certainly helped him. I would point to many pitchers that did it and except for a few, I don’t recall anyone looking like they were bulking up. Sure, perhaps Bonds worked harder in the gym, but to me that’s not why he was so great. He was very good before his head became the size of a hot air balloon. So, taking roids – and if his gf was not lying he took some serious amounts – elevated him from very good to all-time great. And roids probably would take a mediocre player and make him good. I say let the cheaters is because there are already guys in the Hall who benefited from PEDs, so to keep some out arbitrarily is just unfair. That said, Sammy Sosa is one guy who I just don’t feel would have been HoF material w/o the juice and may not even have been a very good player, cuz as a Cubs fan, I watched almost every AB prior to his becoming the Hulk. Meanwhile, there’s some guys who would really surprise me if they did roids – I’m thinking of guys like Maddux, Big Frank, etc. – but most wouldn’t surprise me because I have a personal copy of the original 104 that admitted to doing it in that (supposedly) anonymous survey they did. Everyone would be surprised, if not downright shocked, at a couple of the names.
Steve was a little too accepting of steroids in his chat. That type of acceptance is what led to steroid abuse and the bastardization of HR records. I mean, Sammy Sosa had three 60+ HR seasons and didn’t even lead the league in HRs two of them. (Going off memory, so apologies if I’m slightly off there.) Right now, we should be marveling at Pujols joining on Aaron and Ruth in the 700+ career HR club, and gripped daily to see if Judge can finally break 61 in 61. Instead, we’re interested but the meaning has been reduced.
I can hold two thoughts. Bonds statistically is the single-season HR champ, even if tainted, while recognizing that Judge is attempting to break what should be the real record. We’ve all been kind of robbed.
Steve does not approve of steroid use. He just mentioned that it is a part of MLB history. The reason Steroid use was so rampant was largely due to inaction by MLB. Revenue was far too important to MLB.
The Athletic article Steve referenced is fascinating. A must read. Cheating in MLB is evolving – despite MLB’s presence in every club house, teams are still doing what they can to gain a competitive advantage.
Despite a temporary drop once MLB started enforcement, Spin rates in MLB have now returned to pre-enforcement numbers.
Cheaters in MLB are innovative that is for sure. Too bad MLB can’t stay out in front of the crap,
I would have read The Athletic article but I can’t get past their pay-wall.
Well, he’s a child of that Era. But no, he made certain to say that he doesn’t endorse the use of steroids.
baseballpun;
This writer is a graduate of the school of ……
“Anything that went on before my generation started following anything in America doesn’t matter because all those people were dinosaurs and it’s a new world today” thinking.
As well as…..
“FACTS MATTER!”…unless we don’t like them…then it’s a right wing conspiracy.”
P.S. In retirement people usually put on weight.
Those power hitters have not only lost weight in retirement…even their hat sizes shrunk…to the surprise of no one with any common sense.
Not to mention that when steroid testing began HR totals immediately diminished…..even with smaller parks being built.
Spam
I don’t foresee Perry giving up five years control of Detmers and Adell for two years of Woodruff. I wouldn’t be opposed to trading Adell, but I wouldn’t trade Detmers, Sandoval or Suarez.
Regarding Adell, the Angels should have capitalized on his high prospect rating a few years ago before it was obvious to everyone else he is incredibly athletic but lacking in baseball skills. They Angels worked with him and saw him play everyday. They should have been the first to see his limitations and take advantage of his over-hyped prospect rating – lost opportunity.
Angels & NL West;
Agree with you.
As I wrote under another article today……
If the Brewers want to trade one of their starters, the 2 teams to look at are the Orioles and Guardians. Both have an excess of young, controlled position players and need a veteran starting pitcher.
The Brewers can develop starting pitchers. What they need are more position players – particularly infielders.
As for the Angels – Perry Minasian has created a situation with their coaches and scouts where they have brought along their pitchers this year to a point that the team ranks 9th in MLB ERA and 6th in AL ERA (despite letting Syndergaard and Iglesias go). Additionally Mr. Minasian has been signing and drafting pitchers since he got there, so even more controlled pitchers will be there to work with in 2023.
The Angels are going in a direction with pitching. The above trade proposal is going the wrong way. MLB is not rotisserie baseball.
And you just forgot about the Rangers.
I have never been a fan of Barry Bonds with or without steroids, but we cannot sit here 21 years later and still say Maris is the single season Home Run leader and Aaron is the all time leader. Remember people didn’t want to acknowledge Maris as the leader because there were 8 more games in the season than when Ruth did it, and people didn’t want to acknowledge Aaron because he got significantly more AB’s than Ruth.
Everytime a record is challenged people seem to focus more on the detractors. I do wonder if Judge played for anyone but the Yankees would this even be a discussion
I’ve grown to be a fan of Bonds, the guy was just an amazing hitter… saying he was an amazing hitter actually doesn’t even do him justice.
@drasco036
I am a Bonds fan too. For me, the most complete baseball player I’ve witnessed playing the game. IMO, whether fielding, throwing or hitting, he applied the minimum of mechanics, and the proper ones, to accomplish these tasks and regularly. And amazingly, to me, these mechanics didn’t seem to tail off all that much when he decided to bulk up. A true freak of baseball nature.
I didn’t see his godfather play in his prime, but I hear Mays was like that as well. Barry is in my HOF and always will be.
Yeah, I dont understand Steve’s comment about the changing baseball. He made it sound like changing the ball doesn’t matter. It doesnt? Why were the early days called the “Dead Ball” era, and why did they stick balls in a humidor in Colorado ?
I love how people act like Steroids were not in baseball until the late 90’s and early 2000’s.
Canseco broke into the league in 1985 and has spoken at length that he used steroids in the minor leagues. Big Mac joined him a year later.
Steroids were only brought into the lime light because of the home run chase in 1998 but people also tend to forget that Sosa, McGwire and Griffey were chasing the record before the strike. Expansion, lowering the mound and a juiced ball all had as much as a part to play as steroids did.
***I could be wrong, but I don’t think the “dead ball era” refereed to the ball being different but to it being a time that was dominated by pitchers (higher mound)
Didnt make a comment about steroids, but anyway…
Dead Ball era is due to a few factors.. I always thought the construction of the ball changed, but after having gone to the negro leagues, I learned its not really changed much.. what happened was that the balls were used for far longer of a time (100 pitches?), so they softened, making them harder to hit for distance.. and apparently spitballs made them harder to hit, as well.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead-ball_era
yep.
and that’s also why mlb used to have a rule, home team could elect to bat first if they wanted and give up home ups.
that rule didn’t get dropped until the 1950’s, but had gone out of style by the mid 1910’s (you’d elect to go first because with only 1 or 2 baseballs in play for the whole game, if you hit early, you could mess up the ball enough by the time you came to pitch that it’d be much harder to both see the ball and hit it where you wanted to).
drasco036;
The “Dead Ball Era” did refer to the ball.
It was mushy (they kept reusing the same ball as long as they could as balls were expensive ) and it didn’t travel.
The mounds were not lowered substantially until 1968.
Timed out……
MLB mounds were not standardized until 1950. Until then the home team could change the height as they felt each day. In fact most mounds were kept low to facilitate hitting as that’s what customers wanted to see (revenue primarily came from attendance).
Mounds were actually lowered in 1969 after pitchers dominated so in 1968.
Bob Gibson can be thanked for them lowering the mound. Him and his dominant self…
Hi Steve. Agree that Os should move on from Mateo. In addition to that dreadful OBP, he misses the ball often (36% of his at bats are strikeouts). If I was Elias, if he can’t get Turner this off season, let Gunnar or Westburg have at it.
Hey everyone – I used to be very anti-steroid HoF. But I, too, have changed my opinion & the simple reason why is this: there are already players in the Hall that did roids. It’s a fact people. So how can you keep anyone out for that reason when guys are already guilty in the museum? C’ mon how is that even remotely fair? It pisses me off that everyone looked the other way despite Big Papi being caught more than once. Just because he’s one of the faces of the game? That alone makes me willing to let them all in. Plus, if you don’t think that speed greatly helps players then you don’t understand how they work. They improve focus and energy levels. And the exemptions for Adderoll is the same thing as speed. No way is Pete Rose the player he was without “greenies”. Charley Hustle alright! And the pitchers were using too. I strongly suspect that the Big Unit did roids. As did Pedro. And we all know that Piazza with his bacne used PEDs. I-Rod too. And probably lots of others we wouldn’t even think at least tried them. It’s ridiculous to not put Bonds and Clemens in the Hall. C’mon…
In general way too much subjectivity is involved in who gets in the HOF and who’s left out. To me, the media has too much bias in it’s decision logic.
Dig that the game is chock full of stats. I’d love to see someone/entity start a HOF that elects members based on straight data/formulas. I’m sure easier said then done but unrealistic?
I dig stats too. Big time. My personal fav for offense is wRC+ But under thr current regulations, there is some stuff that can’t be measured easily (if at all). Used to be “unofficial” rules, such as 500 HRs 3000 hits, 300 wins for a pitcher, etc. But those guys are obvious (yes I realize there are one or two guys with 500+ HRs not in the Hall even thp they are eligible). In addition to those stats being somewhat obsolete now, I think the most challenging part is how do you separate the next tier of players, who didn’t quite reach those lofty heights yet may deserve enshrinement.
rememberthecoop, any advice for someone who is new-/wanting to familiarize themselves with advanced stats? WAR etc..? Appreciate the guidance. As far as ‘seperating” the tiers, it’s kinda like you said, they seperate themselves. Stats are one thing but the “whole player” must be assessed when you are talking the HOF. Not an easy task, and some are easier than others. Take Fred Mcgriff as an example. How is HE not in the hall? The sports writers and veteran committee are weird ducks. Everyone has an opinion.
I highly recommend perusing the FanGraphs website. Their stuff is still free, and they have a glossary that explains what the metrics mean.
Appreciate it. I see WAR all the time and WAR+ so I’ll start there perhaps.
FanGraphs. I’m on it. Thanks Coop.
Really enjoyed watching so many commenters get dunked on in the chat today. Between the Trea Turner only will play on the east coast, the spin rate isn’t up you are making things up dude, and the what would Willie “The Amphetamine King of Baseball” Mays say about his actual godson Barry Bonds it was a good day for fools getting roasted
Trea is staying in LA. Already laid money on it with Johnny the bookie.
Someone should have offered The Mick some of this stuff. He could have used it with his bandaged up/injured self.
Micheal Grove recalled from triple AAA yesterday but it might only be a spot start. His stuff looked good enough to stick around. I think Roberts likes the 6th man rotation lately.
Assuming Cat Man gets back what do you think the rotation will be next month?
Urias, Gonsolin, Anderson, May, Kershaw? No specific order.
Yeah, if everyone is healthy. Heaney is probably the odd man out and sent to the bullpen.
Figured about the same. We need Treinen too.
Unfortunately, at this point,, I would not count on Treinen. : (
Imagine giving Nimmo $100 plus million. What could go wrong?
Maybe Steve can do a poll next chat.
“Was EVERYONE juicing in the “steroid era?”
“Was EVERYONE aware EVERYONE in the “steroid era was juicing?”
“Is EVERYONE still juicing?”
Is “EVERYONE aware that EVERYONE is still juicing?”
“Everyone” was not juicing then, and “everyone” is not juicing now? Be specific you say? Ok, I say there are only a “handful” of guys doing it these days, and back in the roid era, I think maybe “a couple handfuls” of guys were doing it. Thats MY opinion. 1200 players, we are talking about a micro-minority. Factor in the minor-leaguers, my opinion still stands.
Maybe 2-3% juiced in the roid era, maybe 1% (likely much under) now. Hard facts.
I’ve known enough people in and around the show to say these things with absolute confidence.
No you haven’t and no you don’t
I want to mute you so badly, but you are the cheapest form of entertainment my friend, and I know better than to lick a gift horse anywhere…That alludes to an expression far before your time young one, don’t spend too much time on it.
That’s just ridiculous my friend. Do they have ‘hot takss’ in comment sections now?
You lost me…I don’t understand even one iota what you mean….friendo…
Yeah, I didn’t communicate that thought very well. I was referring to your very low estimate on # of roiders
Haha I am tired man. I don’t have much left in the tank. Always up for a friendly debate. Thanks for the stat info.(fangraphs). We’ll get into it another time most definitely
My opinion is that at least 25% of players used roids. I’m basing that partially on the 104 guys who voluntarily admitted usage in that survey. Thats almost 20% and I’m guessing some refused or were afraid to admit it even tho they were cheating. Probably closer to 35-45%,.
Not even close. Those guys were cherry picked. Nowhere near that high.
Every player was sent the survey. Of those that responded (and not everyone did), 104 said they had juiced. Why would they lie? We know they all lie the other way but not this way.
I understand. Are we gonna base our #’s/predictions solely and squarely on that though? Who SAYS they didn’t fudge the #’s? I mean, we really don’t have much solid evidence to go on. We are about 15-17% apart right now my man. We are almost on the same page..almost..
Too small of a focus group
If anyone wants to talk juice, lets start naming names and being specific. I’ve seen the Mitchell Report just like everyone else. Anyone wanna name “CURRENT” players in the show they suspect of being on “Michael’s Secret Stuff?” Sure hope you have a good argument/proof…..Biggest fallacy in the game. An ELITE FEW CHEAT! Nothing more! This is not widespread and was NEVER as “widspread” as it was made to seem in the roid era.
Wrong about the past, correct about today. We know for a fact that at least 104 playees were using because of that ‘anonymous’ survey MLB conducted. That’s already close to 20% and that’s not counting the many guys who either refused or were afraid to admit use. I actually have a copy of that list from a guy at a radio station in Denver while I was with Bleacher Report. Some shocking names on there.
20% is too high. 2 out of every 10 players were not using roids. This seems to be the only point of our contention. And I would love to see your list. No joke. I almost want to offer you $ for it. We are brothers on here right? We are on the same team…I want the truth like everyone else.
Face it bro, neither one of us knows. But at least I’m basing my guess on something whereas your just being 100% subjective. You know what I mean?
Agreed. Neither of us know. But you can’t say I am being 100% subjective. I am not and you know thats not true. Give me a little credit for brains, as I have shown you the same courtesy. Maybe I just “know” things and have sources just like you. We are hardly enemies…
Alex A- What an absolutely moronic “question.” Use Google. The numbers on spin rates are easy accessible and are right there. Goofy.
I agree with Steve Adams glad he gave his responses. And he never said he’s ok with steroid use. Some people need better reading comprehension.
THE COMMISSIONER, COACHES, OWNERS and to an extent even writers all turn a blind eye and made money off some way or another. The biggest KNOWN steroid users saved and revived baseball from the strike.
Like he said a museum is about history. Those guys were part of a meaningful history and need to be there even if you disagree with such history.
What an array of bonehead questions this week. Kudos to Steve Adams for dealing with so many idiots in these chats and providing well thought-out answers.