TODAY: The card-check agreement has been finalized, ESPN’s Jeff Passan and Jesse Rogers report, and a neutral arbiter will receive the MLBPA’s union authorization cards on Wednesday.
SEPTEMBER 9: Major League Baseball commissioner Rob Manfred announced today that the league is prepared to voluntarily recognize the MLBPA as the new collective bargaining representatives for minor league players. The announcement comes less than two weeks after the MLBPA sent authorization cards to minor leaguers seeking to represent them, and just days after the union received “significant” majority support and formally requested that the commissioner’s office voluntarily recognize the seismic shift in player representation. According to Evan Drellich of the Athletic (Twitter link), the recognition is pending agreement between the league and union on a card-check resolution — essentially an independent verification of the authorization cards sent last month.
MLBPA executive director Tony Clark released a statement in response to MLB’s announcement (relayed by James Wagner of the New York Times):
“We are pleased (MLB) is moving forward with this process in a productive manner. While there are significant steps remaining, we are confident discussions will reach a positive outcome.”
Had the league not agreed, the MLBPA would have engaged with the federal National Labor Relations Board to prompt an election among minor leaguers. Assuming a majority of those who voted approved of MLBPA representation, the NLRB could then have forced MLB’s hand in recognizing the unionization. Those extra steps won’t be necessary, following today’s announcement by Manfred.
An MLBPA official told MLBTR last week the proposed unionization efforts would give minor leaguers their own separate bargaining unit under the MLBPA umbrella, adding that any minor league CBA would be negotiated independently of the Major League CBA that was completed earlier this year. The MLBPA recently announced it had hired all members of the group Advocates For Minor Leaguers, a move which bolstered the union’s leadership ranks in preparation for the shift, which will see MLBPA membership grow from 1200 to more than 5000.
MLB’s announcement figures to accelerate the process for eventually getting minor league players under the MLBPA umbrella. League recognition would serve as an implicit acknowledgement that the majority of minor leaguers would likely have voted in favor of unionization had the PA petitioned the NLRB for an election.
It now seems all but certain minor leaguers will soon become members of the MLB Players Association. It’s completely uncharted territory for minor leaguers, who have never previously been part of a union. In a full post earlier this week, Drellich spoke to a handful of minor league players about the process. Drellich noted that players in the rookie level Dominican Summer League will not automatically be included because it’s based outside the United States, but the MLBPA is now likely to represent players from domestic complex ball up through Triple-A and plans to bargain over DSL working conditions despite those players not officially joining the Association.
Drellich wrote this evening that both the league and MLBPA believe it possible to hammer out a CBA for minor league players in time for the start of the 2023 season. Negotiations figure to start not long after MLB grants its formal recognition (assuming it transpires), and Drellich notes it’s possible the card-check agreement could be reached in the near future, barring setbacks.
As he points out, the expected recognition comes just a couple months after Congresspeople from both parties expressed an interest in reconsidering MLB’s antitrust exemption. Low rates of pay for minor leaguers has been one of many legislators’ critiques, but recognition of a union and signing a collective bargaining agreement with minor leaguers would take that issue outside the realm of antitrust law and into labor law territory.
It’s set to be a monumental change for the MLBPA, which also joined the AFL-CIO this week. The union’s efforts at both expanding its membership and increasing its communication with labor leaders in other industries comes on the heels of a few years of labor strife. Clark pointed to the contentious return-to-play negotiations after the 2020 COVID shutdown and last winter’s lockout as reasons for affiliating with the AFL-CIO.
Smart. Saves time, resources, and boosts the relationship between the two.
Coincidence, that this happens immediately after the rules changes?
I thought the same. I don’t know anything about this process or even the ramifications, but I did wonder if the timing was coincidence.
The top 1% of professional baseball players make really good money. In fact, I’d say at least the top 20% of professional baseball players make great money. You can’t apply the 1% to all people who play baseball—it has to be applied to professionals for it to be a point of argument.
ALL MLB-level players make FANTASTIC money. What’s the major league minimum? Over half-a-million bucks? Come on. Any minor leaguer who makes the majors will more than make up for the lean years he spent in the minors cutting his teeth. If he’s not good enough to make the Majors, he should be paid a salary commensurate with a career of playing a game for 6-8 months. $30k seems reasonable, especially considering they often get other jobs in the off-season to supplement that.
If they can get players a starting salary of $30k in the minors, that would be a big win.
It would be a more than 100% increase and would bring them up to about federal minimum wage.
It still would not be close to the minimum wage in the 30 states that have a minimum wage that is above the federal minimum. That number will increase to 37 of the 43 states that have minor league teams in 2023.
In states like California and Massachusetts it will still be less than half of the state minimum wage
I think you are right about the increase in wage that the union is going to ask for. Along with an increase in that area, the union is going to ask pay during other leagues like spring training, AFL, and winter league play, private accommodations, and 2 meals a day instead of one a while playing at home plus per diem on the road for players. (Currently they get two meals per day provided by the team on the road).
You have to compare what MLB players make to other highly skilled professionals that are in the top 780 in their profession in the world, not compared to entry level fast food employees make or at whatever you do for a living. There are tens of millions worldwide that can do most jobs and less than a thousand that can do what MLB players do.
Compared to the top 780 actors in the world, they don’t all make “FANTASTIC money”.
Most minor league players have apprenticed with no pay for 10-13 years (depending on if they signed out of high school or out of college) when they become a professional.
Minor league players don’t play the game for 6-8 months. They go to spring training in mid-February and most play through fall leagues that end in November and winter league ball which ends in January or February. They are only paid from when the minor league season starts in mid-April until the end of August.
If they are assigned to a complex league that starts in June and ends in late-August, what we used to call rookie leagues or short season ball, they are paid nothing for that time.
There is no offseason for more than 80% of minor league players today.
According to the UPC for minor leaguers, they are not allowed to get a job that would interfere with play in any of those leagues or that would keep them from baseball related training and activities or medical rehab. So no, most can’t hold other jobs.
During the season, minor league players are required to arrive at the ballpark between 10-11am depending on the game time for a night game. They leave when the games are over around 10pm. They play 6 games per week. Not including travel, that is a 70+ hour work week.
So $30k is not reasonable for all minor league players. Its the bare minimum that can be done for low level minor league players.
It might be reasonable IF they only were required to be at the park 6-7 hours per day and only play from April to August. That is not the case.
I think the fear here is that a raise in costs for the average fan to go to a minor league game will actually keep more people from going to the games. Part of the novelty of the minor league games is you can get a ticket for $10-$20. You get to see good baseball for a fraction of the cost of a major league game. If you double that cost they are going to start having ball parks that are even more empty than they are now.
Major league baseball teams pay minor league players salaries. Minor league team owners who more often than not are not owned by major league teams do not employ the baseball players who just unionized. They pay locals to serve food, beer ect.
Why this would effect minor league baseball teams is pure labor hysteria.
Low minor leaguers make $400.
400×25 players = $10,000. Even if they triple minor league pay, that’s just not that much money considering they are the product.
People at the same age, going to college make Zero dollars and walk away with a huge debt. They both offer experience for later in life. All in all, it isn’t that bad to chase your dream.
Also, where’d you get $400? Thats lower than any number I’m finding.
ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Minor-League-Baseball-Pl…
Poor analogy. If 90% of college graduates didn’t get jobs in their chosen profession and most of the ones who did worked for at most a year, then hardly anyone would take on the debt to get that degree.
It’s not an ‘analogy’, its a choice. No where did I call it an analogy. You choose to go to college, you choose to pursue a baseball career. They are aware of the cost of both, and the benefits of both. Sometimes you go to college for free, then go to minor league baseball. That is another choice.
‘College graduates’? You want to call out the minor league player who doesn’t succeed. What about the 47% who go to college and fail to complete. They come out with debt and no degree. Not to mention degrees in ‘Liberal Arts’ ‘Art’ ‘History’ ‘Business’. Good luck paying off those loans with some of those generic degrees.
There’s pros and cons to both. Its a choice. You could make the same argue for people going to hollywood looking for a movie career.
You compared these things. That’s called an analogy.
Unlike education, baseball is a completely closed and controlled system (with an antitrust law exemption besides). A person with a talent for playing the game can potentially benefit from their abilities only by entering that system. So yes it’s a “choice,” but not even a remotely free one. So that’s why it’s a poor analogy.
BTW, and not that it’s any of your business, but I happened to have made my living in history. So maybe you shouldn’t be so sure you know what constitutes “generic” degrees, or profess any knowledge of how people find their careers.
I compared choices. When someone leaves high school or other school (if they have the skills), they can go to college, just like they can become a rock star, just like they can become baseball player, etc. There’s no intention of an analogy there. I was comparing choices people make NOT the physical characteristics of both.
“can potentially benefit from their abilities only by entering that system”
I didn’t know that about college. So I can graduate and then go to Google and say this is the way I want the company to run? Every career, unless you try to be an entrepreneur, requires you to obey by their rules. And before you go with the entrepreneur angle, first mention their success rate. It cant be any better than baseball player.
You’re a history guy? Sorry mate. But, I’m in a Trade Union, no one seems to care about hurting my feelings here.
If you don’t like the word analogy, I will simply say your comparisons are poor comparisons. If you want to become a professional musician you aren’t limited to where you can practice that talent, you have an infinity of outlets. If you want to become professional actor, same. (But you might not want to quit your day job.) If your talent is accountancy, you can get one of those worthless degrees and work anywhere, or even for yourself. If your talent is playing baseball, not. You have one option, the one controlled by MLB. Maybe dealing with this antitrust exempt monolith is why ballplayers want to be represented collectively? Could be… if you’re a union guy, you’d get that I’d think.
Sorry your feelings are hurt (thought I’m not sure how), but mine certainly aren’t. I’m just pointing out that maybe you shouldn’t be making statements about value of someone else’s education, or how they make their livings.
What are you talking about? If youre a musician, you need clubs to hire you, you need a record label to sign you. If youre an actor, the same. You can’t say yeah, I’ll play your club/act in your movie but I want a million dollars, I want to do drugs while I work, and oh, I think I’ll only show up once a week.
Sure if you want to force the ‘analogy’ name on the choice. Okay, they’re the same. You have to be just as smart play baseball as college, you have to take out ‘baseball loans’ to go there and science nerds get just as many dates and just as famous as baseball players. Stupid, but whatever.
You love to put words in my mouth. I never said “my feelings were hurt” please reread. You seem truly true arrogant. And clearly your feelings ARE hurt. You got upset because I pointed out educators, or whatever youre doing in the history field generally don’t get paid crap. Why would this matter if youre in the field? Its a fact. Maybe you get paid well, I don’t know. It still doesnt change the fact that its a tough field to make a decent living. Starting pay is $46K if you can find a job. Thats not good with student debt to pay. Sorry you got upset.
Dude blocked me for saying I wasn’t insulted. Now there’s a new one. I guess I was supposed to be.
That he doesn’t understand what an analogy is, is a representation of how little education he has. He won’t understand your argument because its WAY over his head.
Most minor league markets can’t support anything over a $20 basic ticket for entertainment that is over a multiple event schedule. Big concert draw? Sure. A bunch of mid week week 7pm games? Nope. MiLB is in the same market as other local entertainment venues like the movie theater ls, zoo, etc. They aren’t destination visits as MLb parks are.
MLB/Players are negotiating the pay and will foot the costs. MILB wont pay.
The very essence of “exploitation” is that the victim has no choice in the matter. I’m not saying the MiL’s are getting a fair deal, but the hyperbole here is a bit much.
Wow, these all got out of order. The way this app operates sometimes makes me wonder if perhaps the IT maintenance crew should consider unionizing. (I’m sure you all do fine work. This was probably a feeble attempt at irony).
I’m sure if the IT unionized they would just become less accountable and more lazy.
They don’t have a choice at their chosen profession. They can play in the minor league and major league baseball system or they can not play at all. There are no other options.
I don’t think so. MLB had 10 working days to respond to the union and that was today.
MLB prepared for this with significant restructuring of MiLB last winter.
Yes.
Does this mean a hotdog will cost $12 in the minor games?
The tiny ones yes. The foot longs will be $22.50
A hot dog will continue to cost whatever the people eating hot dogs are willing to pay for a hot dog. S&D!
Cold hard truth…I agree.
If you are willing to pay that, then yes. MILB team owners don’t pay the players, so it won’t effect the costs to those teams, only to MLB owners. You hot dog will not go up based on the minor league players getting a raise to minimum wage.
Wow big win for Bill Fletcher Jr, good thing this won’t further bring politics into sports…
And big payday for the formerly non-profit activists at Advocates for Minor Leaguers
Say good bye to affordable minor league games or worse yet, say good bye to minor league teams in general.
In fact, one more step closer to saying goodbye to baseball.
So, you’d rather that MiLB players continue to earn next to nothing for their work?
Essentially, yes. Anytime labor has a voice, it is bad, bad, bad. This is classic, crypo-libertarian dogma.
They have options. Many take jobs in the off season in fact.
They aren’t being forced to play minor league ball. It’s there choice. They signed there contracts willingly and accepted the pay plan. Let them go work in another field if they are Not happy with the wages they are earning.
Should not be rewarded for feelings of entitlement.
Their labor is part of what earns MLB billions. Without it the players who go on to the MLB would not have adequate competition to develop the skills necessary to reach the MLB.. These players aren’t expenses to franchises. They are assets and should be compensated as such.
You can say they have a choice but MLB is a monopoly. If your best skill is baseball MLB is your only viable career option. And at that point your just telling people not to follow their dreams.
But let’s do some math. Let’s say there’s 5400 minor leaguers. Thirty teams times six minor league clubs times thirty players. Let’s say we want to give them a each $10,000 a year raise. That equates to $54M Sounds like a lot of money. MLB revenue last year was $9.56B. $54M is 0.56% of that. So let’s not pretend MLB can’t easily afford a much more modest increase in MiLB salaries.
@mule
Lets not confuse revenue and profit. Neither you or I know which teams can afford it and which ones cant. Ask Kmart the difference between revenue and profit. It didn’t matter the Millions they made, they went out of business for lack of profit. MLB is recognizing the Union, but it will be the individual teams paying the higher wages. That won’t be a problem for LA or NY, but Cincinnati and Kansas City may find it more difficult.
Here’s how we know they can afford it: The Florida Marlins, one would assume one of the least financially well-off teams, sold for $1.2B. They were purchased prior to that for $158M. So if one of the least popular teams in baseball appreciates by a billion dollars over 20 year period we know there is a lot of money in baseball without having to see any books.
No, we know there is demand for a franchise. It does not mean they are profitable. The previous owner, who is no longer paying the bills, got Jeter and a bunch of his cronies to buy the team, and his cronies were so happy with Jeter, they fired him. That’s not what a profitable franchise does. For teams that don’t sell, that appreciation only allows them to take on debt if they borrow against it. It means nothing for the day to day operations. The big market profitable teams are seldom the ones changing hands, unless the owner dies, or MLB gets involved with the sale. Even Disney felt it was not enough to keep it in their stable.
So your logic is because they fired the guy who was basically their spokesperson they are so finanically incompetent that they overpaid for a franchise by 500%?
Just because a franchise doesn’t change hands does not mean it does not increase in value. Obviously as anyone who’s ever had a cursory discussion with a homeowner knows.
But let’s take Jeter out of the equation. You know, strip the variables. The Atlanta Braves, which are a publcily traded company, are valued at $2.1B. Fifteen years ago they were valued at $400M. Is this another non-profitable company that somehow increases in value by almost $100M a year?
Why would Cincinnati or any other team find it difficult to spend a couple more million across their farm system on increased wages?
Greed
Lets say each MLB club has approximately 180 minor leaguers not on a 40 man roster. Roughly 30 at each level…AAA, AA, A+, A, and each RK level (ACL/FSL, and DSL).
Each team pays differently but according to reports the team I root for currently pays approximately $400 a week at ACL/DSL, $500 a week for at A/A+, $600 a week at AA, and $700 a week at AAA.
Let’s say a union CBA requires the minimums to rise for all levels above short season RK ball; too say a reasonable ~$550 a week at A/A+ (roughly $14,000 a season – just above the poverty line), ~$825 a week at AA (roughly $21,000 a season), and ~$1,100 a week at AAA (roughly $28,000 a season).
Note: I chose the ~$1,100 figure because it’s approximately half of what a 40 man roster player with 0.000 years of service on optional assignment makes on his MLB CBA minor league split guarantee.
That equates to an additional expenditure of about $600,000 per year on the 120 players effected on my A/A+/AA/AAA teams. Assuming my team pays similarly to everyone else, then all teams can easily afford this kind of raise.
Players would gladly accept it, even if they are paying ~10$ a day for union stewardship.
Muleor – franchise values are often cited but someone with a background in finance would not be overly-impressed with those numbers.. that Marlins sale, as example, comes out to about a 10% return (using CAGR method). That return is marginally better than you or I might expect from investing in index funds.
There is much more to the story than just franchise values though, which is not public info. I’m not saying the owners are broke or losing money.. just that the sales information does not support the idea that they are making a huge return on their investment.
What business that is basically ancient still acheives 10% growth year over year with no down years? MLB teams perform exceptionally well. I don’t know anyone who isn’t an clueless cryptobro who wouldn’t be happy with that return. Also, as I’m sure you know, index funds are sound investments so one has to conclude that MLB teams are as well if they outperform them. And as we all know, sound investments make money.
Bottom line, sports franchise values are a function of ROI. If we see franchises increasing in value, it’s because their net revenue is increasing proportionally.
I never said it didn’t change value. But its just paper value, only good for getting further in debt. Its not like MLB tells the Marlins their value went up half a mill and hands them cash. As to the only team that opens its books, look at the valuation, and look at the profit and tell me how many years to the break even mark. Then tell me how its a good investment. Its a status symbol. There’s a reason all the owners made there money in a different industry.
They don’t have the “couple more million.” Its why they waive a $10MM starting pitcher, coming off a career season. There was no revenue sharing during covid, because the big market teams cried poor. Small markets had to borrow. Which player should they cut to pay this new minor league cost?
No, they are a luxury purchase and their value is based on demand. It has little to do with ROI.
You have things kind of backwards. The market value for teams tracks their net revenues, or projected net revenues. They are investments, with an expected return on investment. When the Dodgers sold, most the estimates of the team’s value were well under $1B. When the team sold for $2.1B we heard the predicable “rich man’s hobby” explanations. Then they turned around and signed a new media deal worth over $8B. Oh, right. So I guess these smart investors who made big money elsewhere don’t get dumb all of a sudden because they’re buying a sports franchise.
We shouldn’t let our being fans of the game get in the way of understanding that the very rich people who bought our favorite team isn’t treating it like a business. Because that’s what it is.
@Stymee, are you speaking of Wade Miley and the Cincinnati Reds? If so, you are aware of the fact that they then replaced him in the rotation with another starter making 10M$ this season, aren’t you? – Mike Minor! You are incredibly naive if you believe Bob Castellini or any of the other 29 monopoly owners are losing money.
As for who should the Reds cut if they needed to find 1 million$ for increased minor league wages (LOL at this hypothetical)? As it is the team I’ve followed since age 5 and am the most well versed in – they could easily DFA/outright/nontender half their current 40 man roster – it’s full of AAAA players. They are terrible.
“There’s a reason all the owners made there money in a different industry.”
Well, duh. You can’t buy a mlb club unless you already have hundreds of millions of $.
Yep. Because the moment they make the big leagues they’re going to get paid such an absurd amount it’ll more than make up for it. And if they’re not good enough to make the big leagues, they shouldn’t be making a ton of money anyway.
Why shouldn’t minor leaguers make good money? In any other skilled profession the top 1% makes good money.
Maybe you should find out what minor leaguers actually get paid, and how small a percentage of them ever see even a day in the majors, before you talk “tons.” The vast majority of them are there to give the higher-level prospects someone to play. The ones who don’t make it are just as important to the development system as the ones who do.
I am pro labor and grew up in a Teamster household. But MiLB teams can’t increase prices and remain solvent. Concessions already faced inflation pressure. Teams struggle filling 10k seats at 10-20. MLB can pay their minor league employees more…it just can’t be absorbed by minor league franchises financially.
Why is “union” automatically associated with “increase prices”. The market will only pay what they can pay. Companies have to remain solvent. There is plenty of revenue sharing going on a MLB levels. Obviously this will have to be spread lower. MLB players will have to share the burden as well. Going out of business, is not a business model for unions.
Ridiculous logic, other than blindly faulting unions. Too many people think of Post Office, Police or Teacher’s Unions and apply it across the board. Trade, Manufacturing, Nurse’s Unions etc, are all private industry and those people make a good wage, but they also have to Bust Their Azzes. I’ve worked in both (private sector and government union), believe me their a HUGE difference.
Its not black and white as a few want to paint here, its gray.
It’s also a classic zero-sum fallacy argument. According to this theory if your burger flipper gets paid enough to feed himself, that cost comes right out of your pocket. Economics doesn’t really work that way, but then the argument isn’t actually economic, it’s ideological. The burger flipper is undeserving of a living wage, so we’re supposed to resent them for getting one.
So, the only way to have minor league baseball is to have 8 guys living in two bedroom apartments and eating nothing but Ramen and PBJ…?
Its the only way they have a Disneyland or Disneyworld, because of what they pay their employees. Actors work as waiters for small amounts before getting their big break. Many jobs require internships, before realizing the higher wages. Why should this be different because they can hit a ball with a stick?
Perhaps that means both jobs are economically non-viable and the situation requires a rebalancing of the system?
Nah let’s exploit people instead it’s easier
In reverse order…
Unpaid internships are BS on every level. Making people work for free is obvious exploitation but more so, since only people who can afford to work without getting paid (someone else pays their bills) it is basically systemic nepotism.
Waiters making less than actors is true, but potential future employers are not responsible for paying not yet employees, so comparing two entirely separate jobs makes no sense, even in your own comparisons.
Disney makes billions every year and can more than afford to pay their employees more than a pittance without having to close down the parks or lay off Goofy.
Are you suggesting service workers at Disney are the top .00001% at their jobs?
I’m saying actors, until they get their break, work a second job. As to Disney workers, I’m saying you should be more up in arms about their situation. Unlike a minor leaguer who hopes to make the majors and make the big bucks, service workers have no such hope. Baseball players are playing a game that most would expect they love playing. I am not against them being paid, but to feel indignation over them being paid less than a factory worker gets for a full year of 50 HR weeks, at a job with much less joy, seems a little misplaced.
Are you suggesting they arent? Some of them, just like minor leaguers, are probably among the best. Some of them may not be. They just don’t have the hope of “making the big leagues”.
If a business cant survive without exploiting its workers, maybe that business doesn’t deserve to survive. This is a massive exaggeration anyways
Exactly. I don’t see why “fans” think this is such a massive gotcha. Even accepting the ridiculous premise it means the practice is inherently broken.
@PhDPad- Your third point is ESPECIALLY grotesque. Let’s keep things affordable so you can go to games. That’s much more concerning than minor league players being able to survive their pursuit of the majors. What else would you like to do? Instead of helping with college debt we can triple it instead. Sound good to you?
@myth, such a stupid comment, doesn’t deserve a reply, but I’ll indulge. As salaries for 6-7 months of work go up, the prices of the games will go up. As minor leagues get bloated and increase fees as has happened in MLB, prices will go up. MLB is already not affordable, soon MiLB will follow. This downward spiral will continue until the whole system fails. The his has nothing to do with my attendance to MiLB or MLB. I have plenty of disposable income if I were to choose to use it on game attendance. I used to waste it on NBA, now I use it to help causes that might save America. And how is college debt related to people spending part of their time playing a game? College debt is a direct result of government intervention in higher education. Government ruins everything. Progressives ruin government, hence, well you get the picture.
“now I use it to help causes that might save America”
I sincerely hope that means you gave money to Bannon for his “wall”.
Do you think Apple makes the latest iPhone and says, “I know people are willing to pay two grand for this but it only costs us one sixth of that to make so let’s only charge $500.” Because that’s the logic on display here.
I’ll let you know when I concern myself with your garbage opinions. You are so concerned about prices rising yet you don’t seem to have the common sense to wonder where all the money is going. Yes, prices will go up and all the cost will be transferred to customers. I guess it doesn’t occur to you to wonder who’s pockets are getting lined.
I was using college debt as an analogy. Would you like a webster’s dictionary link to the word “analogy”?
Would you like to provide an example of government intervention making college debt worse?
You’re consistent, PhDPad, I’ll grant you that: consistently anti-labor.
Perhaps you’d enjoy watching the owners and front office suits of Major League Baseball teams take the field and play instead of the professional players.
What fun — 86-year-old Jerry Reinsdorf on the bump, pitching to Hal Steinbrenner behind the dish. Rob Manfred at shortstop, John Henry at third, Mark Walter at second, Tom Ricketts at first, Larry Dolan in left, Steve Cohen in center, Artie Moreno in right . . . and that’s just one team!
I want to see them trot out onto the field with their laptops and cell phones to watch them look at spreadsheets and take meetings. Do you think they’d mind having numbers sewed onto the backs of their Armani suits so we fans will know who’s who?
Arte would have to be a player/manager. He needs surpreme control. He would never be relegated to merely a Right Fielder.
Heats getting me again today fellas…**SUPREME***
@fink, hahaha, love your comment. I’d love to see that, it’d be hilarious. We’d have to have a hip surgeon on standby, though. I support labor and have no love lost for wealthy owners who exploit their workers. However, collective bargaining by ‘elites’ that drive up costs is not the best answer.
Even tripling minor league wages (which are paid by the big league clubs not the minor league team) shouldn’t raise the cost of a minor league game by even one penny. And the minor leagues aren’t going anywhere, as long as the average mlb debut age continues to stay steady at 25 (which it has for 25 years and counting) the mlb will continue to need the farm system.
No one is ‘tripling’ minor league pay. Stop repeating that made up number.
ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Minor-League-Baseball-Pl…
They currently make $18/hr. Do you seriously think its going to go to $56/hr? No one is going to pay the Armadillo Sod Poodle players that kind of money.
Incorrect, players in the minors get paid weekly – there is no hourly pay. And at no point did I even hint that their salaries would triple. I stated that they could triple and mlb clubs could still afford them.
No, because independent minor league teams (the majority) do not pay MiLB salaries.
And you assume that as players salaries rise, the agreement between MLB and its affiliates will not be changing?
Wait a minute Manfred did something right?
Love the Steal Your Face. You see any shows while Jerry was still alive?
Not that MLB had much choice but to voluntarily agree, but not fighting this is a step in the right direction on labor relations.
As much as I don’t care for MOST unions, this is a good move by MLB to not delay the inevitable. Credit in the bank.
MLB had 10 working days to respond to MLBPA, so they waited as long as possible.
“Sure, I’m against child labor and sweat shops and I like having a 40 hour work week, weekends off, vacations, vacation pay, sick pay and being able to retire, but…I HATE unions!!!”
The same people who hate all unions hate the alternative just as much which is to have government regulation to create a 40-hour work week, sick and maternity pay, etc. But you need one or the other give the unequal power.
There was a time when unions had much more of a purpose because of the conditions all over. That time has largely passed. As what unions fought for become the norm, even among nonunion businesses, the need for unions tends to decline. I worked in a grocery chain where the last 3 contracts resulted in lower wages. Then minimum wage went up in the state, but due to the negotiated agreement, many of the union workers continued at their current wage, which was below the new minimum. Will the minor leaguers end up better off once the union applies their dues to the new wages? Plus I question whether the MLBPA can negotiate separately for the two groups. Who should have a say in negotiations when it comes to the draft? Major Leaguers or Minor Leaguers?
Why do people spin this false narrative. The middle class is shirnking every year. The gap between rich and poor gets bigger every year. This idea that everything is now fine and corporations will never exploit labor again is silly.
Boomers who could buy houses on a janitor’s salary may not have needed unions but the world is a lot different today.
First and foremost, your comment that people were making less than the state minimum is absolutely BS, it’d be illegal – even with a prior union contract negotiated.
And LOL @ union dues, they are going to be tiny. Major leaguers who make a minimum of 700,000+ a year pay a max 2% due (the total $ amount is fixed so as salary goes up % due goes down)..
No, if negotiated by a union, the contract prevails. It was legally bargained. New hires being brought in had to be paid the new minimum, so crew members who were low on seniority were quitting. It was part of why MI became a right to work state, allowing individuals to opt out of joining the union.
You are completely misinformed if you think that grocery store unionized employees were being paid less than the new state minimum once the minimum went into effect. I don’t care if they were new hires or had been there a decade, didn’t happen.
That is what is happening in MILB. Players are required to show up at the stadium at 10-11 AM depending on game time (much earlier for day games) and leave after the game is over at 10pm or later. They play 6 days per week from April to the end of August (this year through mid September).
None of that includes travel time. I am required by law to pay my employees for the time they spend in job related travel.
Minor league players are not paid in spring training and they are not paid for being in complex leagues, fall leagues, or winter leagues. All of those are not optional. If the MLB team tells them to play in those leagues its a requirement, not a choice.
Unions in their previous iterations were essential in forging many of the laws we have today, but, currently they are not always so helpful.
I’ve been a union member in my industry before and have seen two different unions in that time. One was great and offered real value, one was a leech that existed to bleed dues from members.
Not all unions are good unions.
This is largely about trying to preserve the anti-trust exemption
I agree with this point. I also believe this will be the launching pad for MLB owners to demand a hard cap during the next negotiating period. As we’ve seen, they don’t readily give up millions of dollars to the MLBPA without a fight (and that’s not an indictment on MLB, rather an observation, as the MLBPA does the same).
The only way the owners get a hard cap is to open their books so the players can see exactly what 50% of gross revenue is. Do you think the owners will do that?
No, I don’t think they will. Nor do I believe they want to because, imho, they’ve downplayed their profits for years. But I’m not so certain they will have to. That’s what the Union’s retort usually is, but now they are dealing with two unions (albeit co-unions, but representing two distinct groups).
It’s an interesting dynamic taking shape, but I can guarantee that the owners & MLB aren’t simply giving in to unionizing MiLB players, after fighting against that very notion for so long, without definitive strategy for the coming years to compensate for losses. It’s just how they operate. They’ve also been vehemently opposed to opening their books, so I doubt that’s planned.
Honestly, I don’t know. It’s two sides, diametrically opposed in ideology, course of action, & objectives on nearly every single issue. If history is any indication, this move isn’t out of goodwill. But, again, that’s not intended to disparage owners, because MLBPA does the same, and for the same business reasons. It’s merely an observation.
The average salary for a minor league baseball player, whose contract is handled by Major League Baseball, ranged from around $6,000 in Single-A to around $9,350 in Double-A to nearly $15,000 in Triple-A in 2018, according to The Athletic. Those wages cover only the months of the regular season. Players are not paid during spring training or in fall leagues.
The poverty line in 2019 is $12,490, according to the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.
Congress and the NLRB were about to get involved, the only reason why MLB agreed.
Makes sense and I know their anti-trust exemption is a huge advantage for MLB. Anyone who believes otherwise isn’t viewing their status objectively. I hadn’t heard that anyone else was about to get involved as you cite here, but I wouldn’t doubt it either.
Good. No need to fight the inevitable when you can spend that time and those resources on solutions.
I’d think if I was an owner I’d want my athletes getting proper nutrition and rest.
Honestly I’d have bought condos in my minor league cities. Let the players use them during the season and AirBnB them out of season. Take the depreciation tax write offs on an asset that is actually appreciating, and have players want to play for me.
The owners didn’t do anything of the sort and now they can deal with a union.
I would have purchased small apartment complexes. The owners did agree in the settlement f the class action suits brought by minor league players that they would house the minor league players, but I have not seen that its been implemented anywhere. Have you? Are they just putting them up in hotels even during home stands?
Like minds, ha ha. Take a 10 or 20 year view at real estate in most AAA and AA markets. You’d have doubled your investment or more while being a good employer.
I have seen Angels minor league guys housing at the high a and double a levels.
They still can do this and they should. Nothing stopping the 30 owners from building 180 small apartment buildings near minor league stadiums. You can even set it up like most dorms – 2+ players to a room for all players not on a 40 man roster playing in the minors, communal room, a door man and security guard. Do short term rentals to the public when baseball is not in season. The real estate investment alone would more than make up for the costs longterm. Not to mention having the security in knowing all of your players are together each night under a single roof.
The problem today is that most players are living 2+ to a room. That is not a solution they would agree to going forward. Another problem with setting it up like dorms is that 40% of minor league players are married. I am sure that they are going to want to live with their spouses. Apartment buildings give them that opportunity, The real estate investment is almost always a good one.
Here’s the problem with your Pollyanna suggestions: no matter how much resources you “invest” in minor leaguers to give them proper nutrition/rest, etc., it won’t change the equation of how many of them will “make it”. You can only have 40 guys on the roster, 25 active. There just aren’t enough spots available- it’s happening even now: teams (ALL of them) go through much greater roster churn than at any time in the history of the game; when one player gets called up and added to the roster, another is DFA to make room – ok teams can use IL, but there is a finite number of ML jobs. If expenses for minor leaguers go up – and they are- the easy answer is to simply eliminate a number of jobs. Currently every team is allowed to have 180 players under contract in their system – that number will go down now.
Negative, the hope isn’t that the added investment returns more players to the bigs but that it returns better players to the bigs. If you have the proper nutrition, the proper weight rooms, medical staff, pay, etc. players can focus on their primary job better.
Additionally, MLB already saw this coming when they eliminated 42 minor league teams. These added expenses have already been taken into account. They assuredly run cost/benefit analysis on every move they make and realized they needed to get rid of the filler because their costs were about to go up some.
Costs are about to go up for MLB team owners. They will be paying an increase for the remaining 120 minor league teams and start paying players for time in the complex league, fall league, and winter league.
Over on the Athletic they are talking about a $4 million increase in costs per MLB team.
Additionally, MLB already saw this coming when they eliminated 42 minor league teams. These added expenses have already been taken into account. They assuredly run cost/benefit analysis on every move they make and realized they needed to get rid of the filler because their costs were about to go up some.
Of course only a handful will make it. That’s how the math works.
But the ones who do will be better off. And the ones who don’t would’ve been able to push the true prospects harder.
If your worst case scenario is people being treated like actual human beings while your real estate investments doubled in value, that’s a good thing.
This is NOT the fault of the unions, but it is likely a precursor to the further shrinkage of the number of minor league teams. The word “shrinkage” reminds me to offer my sympathy to Keibert Ruiz. Balls and strikes are a delicate thing and require protection.
Great article on that in Baseball Prospectus. Apparently from this point forward, contraction would require the input of the union. Once the CBA is agreed to, contraction or expansion can only happen if its included in the CBA. Pretty sure that MLB contracted the 42 teams they did prior to this season because they knew this was coming and they would have to pay minor league players a living wage. Meaning more than twice what they are paying them now. The article said that they estimate the increase in cost to MLB owners will be $3-4 million per team.
Of course they contracted teams to minimize costs! 10% of players drafted (minor leaguers) make it to MLB even if only for a day. If ANY industry had: a) a finite number of jobs within their industry that could not increase (ok expansion could add jobs, but it happens every 20+ years b) a 10% success rate of your “internship” program, then as a rational person you would: eliminate jobs/overhead, etc.
Of the 600 players drafted each year approximately 180 of them will make it to the bigs. An additional 60 or so IFA’s each year will make it to the bigs. The players who don’t make it are still needed too fill out the rosters and “assist” those 240 to grow into big leaguers.
A bit over 35% of all players that are taken in the draft (323 in 2022) or signed as free agents (231 international and US based in 2021) make it to the majors in some capacity.
In past years there were as many as 40 rounds of the draft. I am using the first 10 rounds of those drafts because that is how many rounds there will be going forward.
Less than 20% of 1st round draft picks ever become MLB average. players for even a single season.
MLB didn’t cut those teams because of the success rate of the minor league players. They NEED those players to help develop the 30-40% that will make it to the majors. They did it because now they can require them to play in complex leagues and pay them absolutely nothing. That will change with them being unionized.
@josh, yep all the rank and file individuals are incompetent boobs who would never have been able to accomplish these things by themselves. They needed brilliant minds like Hoffa and Trumka to take care of their weak fragile lives for them.
And of course you forgot to thank public sector unions that bargain against management for money that neither side has a reason to limit as they soak the taxpayers all the way to their cushy salaries and benefits.
Oh and while we’re at it, tell your namesake to start hitting the ball better!
@PhDPad
You can be brilliant and hard-working, but a single blue collar laborer does not have equal power to a billionaire who can make numerous large political contributions to influence legislation.
Of course, there are plenty of people connected to both labor and management who were corrupt. I bet there are more convictions of employers for violating wage and hour laws than there are convictions of union organizers.
Unions are not the answer for everything or everyone. But the threat of a possible union often helps level the playing field even for those who choose not to unionize.
Just study the labor movement 100 years ago to see what happens when you don’t have collective bargaining power.
It doesn’t matter whether one is competent or not, the structure of the market is such that disproportionate power rests in the hands of management. Even Adam Smith recognized how markets get skewed and distorted by unequal power distribution. Smith wrote before the creation of the modern corporation which skewed power even more.
Does the PhD in your handle mean “piled higher and deeper”?
@manny and @skeptical. I agree with everything you’ve both wrote. Still disagree that MiLB should be unionized. It will be a net negative for the sport.
Because nobody offers degrees in ideological claptrap.
Will this be retro active to when MLB destroyed all of those teams for the small towns that depend on that business. More are coming into baseball now and you cut teams. I don’t understand why MLB destroyed those teams. In no way does any of those small town teams affect the Majors. The Majors are not affected by unless he looked at them as competing with the MLB teams for viewers. So the only reason I can see why Major League Baseball would cut all of those teams, is because they competed against them. He keeps making these decisions, this was a monopoly move by Rob Manfred to destroy competition. He will be the one credited for destroying baseball as we’ve known it. MLB seems to think it has gotten so big it is untouchable.
I assume the downsizing occurred because of an assumption that this outcome was inevitable
As you referenced, that really sucked for the towns that have enjoyed and relied on their MiLB teams for a little revenue and entertainment.
I agree, he knew it was coming so he knocked out a quarter of the businesses that would soon be arguing against him if they were still there. A nuke them before they can complain kinda thing.
Had to have been collectively over a billion is profit lost by losing the partnerships and players, these teams and towns had deals with other companies. Soda, food, alcohol, hotels, grass seed, fencing, all kinds of business. I really hope they find a way to pressure him to bring back the lower leagues for these towns. The stadiums are just sitting there. Wasting away to time thanks to him.
I’m just saying…
Manfred waited until the last minute, but at least he did the right thing. So now they have 30 days after the end of the minor league season to start negotiating a CBA with the players. Should be interesting.
I’m sure I don’t have to remind you about who employs the commissioner and that he isn’t going to take any action that isn’t supported by at least 16 team owners.
Mute one guy, PHD Phool, and the whole thread becomes sane. If you responded to that troll I won’t be seeing your response even if it was sane, but so worth not seeing his trolling posts.
Someone tell @outinleftfield he made a lot of good points re: buying apartments and renting them to players, owners not likely getting a hard cap since they won’t open their books and CBA discussions that will influence future contraction. I agree with all these.
Too bad he won’t see these supportive comments because he’s too fragile to see comments that he doesn’t agree with.
You and the point aren’t in the same state.
Don’t worry about him. He comments from multiple accounts to “agree” with himself. And he said that Blake Snell is a sunk cost for the Padres.
I looked it up and dues are 70.00 a day. They say how that’s going to work? Lot of money for minor leaguers.
Lee………………………
That’s an old figure….dues for the 2021 season for MLB players was $85/day per the MLBPA website. They don’t list the 2022 rate nor do they link the new CBA or JDA mlbplayers.com/faq
That figure is for MLB players and since they are negotiating a separate CBA for the MiLB players chances are slim to none that the dues will be the same unless the get massive raises
Cat Mando, I don’t know who you are sir, but your name and profile pic are truly impressive/awesome. Thought I was the only Cat Fan on here.
TrumboJumbo………
Thanks.
Been a cat fan ever since my first ex-wife found a stray sitting on her parents front step. We were not yet married and her family had several cats and a dog. I got custody of the cat. I love dogs as well… big dogs…like St. Bernard or Irish Wolfhound big…. but cats are easier (especially when you work and/or travel a lot like I used to) and cheaper.
Could not decide what to name her (the future ex wanted some name like Cupcake…can’t really remember…just remember saying NO WAY). Bob Segar came on the radio playing Katmandu. Problem solved.
Years later I was watching Two and a half Men on TV and one of the jokes was a cat named Mandu and i busted up
Haha Katmandu is just too perfect. Finding out that Tony Gonsolin was a big O’l cat fan a few years ago definitely helped ease me into my Dodger fandom. And Irish Wolfhounds are super neat. Seen 1 or 2 somewhat up close but never got to pet one. They look like very friendly giants.
For a player on a major league minimum deal, that is 2% of their salary. Minor league players will probably pay a similar percentage That is typical of union shops around the country too.
There are going to be two seperate bargaining units within the same union. One for minor leaguers and one for major leaguers. I think it’s pretty safe to assume the minor leaguers won’t be paying more than they make in dues. It’s doubtful many players would have signed their cards if that were the case.
The dues for a big leaguer are 85$ a day, it’ll probably be 1/10th of that for a minor leaguer when all is said and done. A couple grand a season max, which will be more than worth it to a minor leaguer if their salary is about to double.
I would think that it will be much less than 1/10th of what the major league players pay unless the lowest level minor league players are getting a raise to around $70k per season.
Just spitballing, but I am thinking that minor league players will see increases that take rookie league and A and A+ ball players that play 132 games(?) to around $36k per season, AA players that play 144 games to around $60k per year, and AAA players that play 150 games increasing to about $90k per season.
I also think that complex league, formerly called rookie leagues, will start getting paid. Currently they are paid nothing other than housing and 2 meals per day.
Not sure why there is so much anger here. It will cost a few million more for owners and a few million more from the union. This isn’t moving the needle on cost to the consumer much if at all.
C’mon Darkside….you know that .common sense posts are not allowed.
Well I say my own fair share of wacky stuff. I’m only trying to balance it out?
LMAO….epic reply.
So….do you think our Fightin’s will make the post season?
as long as the Brewers keep stinking. SP needs to step up and get the BP arms a break.
Wow a common sense labor decision my MLB. Will wonders never cease (not Dylan)
but he has been a wonder this year?
I’ve sat in many half empty minor league parks watching minor league players play. And I’ve watched guys rounding the bases wondering exactly what is their financial value. It’s basically in future potential. A local McDonald’s franchise likely generates more daily revenue than most minor league teams. A Walmart store on avg generates 2 million per day.
They’re subsidized by the MLB teams. Very few are independent. So the MLB teams/players would bear the majority of the costs. After all, they are the ones negotiating the deal.
Also, what does Walmart’s “revenue” have to do with anything? Sounds like its just put it in to exaggerate a number. If the 2M per day employee is selling products that cost 3M after costs, he’s losing the company money. Profit is what matters. And everyone knows, Walmart operates on a very low profit margin.
So, if a CBA isn’t finalized and players are locked out or strike, then that means MLB will also be locked out or strike, even if not formally. MLB teams need the minors to fill the rosters of the MLB teams. There are players being recalled and sent back down daily. Perhaps this is why MLB created the partner leagues. Will they then use those players? Will MLB players welcome those “scans”? This could get…interesting.
“…welcome those *scabs*?”
The partner leagues agreed to honor the MLB CBA, so unless the players are on strike, which can only happen after the regular season starts, I don’t think there will be any scabs.
If the owners lock the players out like they did the MLB players this past offseason, there can be no replacement players,
Fans need a recognized union to be able to afford tickets.
The last two years of fighting have been very contentious. However, I actually love the progress. Baseball seems to be going in a good direction.
If they can just fix the Tampa/Oakland situations and add two teams, baseball will be doing well.
Big mistake. Unions = shakedown artists. I predict this is the beginning of the end of minor league baseball.
The key is whether the Union will not risk the cutting of affiliations of 25-30% of the minor league teams. Nobody needs skyrocketing minor league tickets either. It has to be in small equitable steps or ownership is prepared to go back to the old ways when there were 50-75 minor league teams in the system and annual tryouts. The key to remember is the majority of the minor league teams are not owned by MLB owners. Only about 25%…But it is a good thing to get the minor league system in tip top shape.