Prior to the start of the season, the Red Sox and third baseman Rafael Devers engaged in some extension talks that didn’t yield much progress, as the two sides were reportedly around $100MM apart in their floated prices. Some more details on the negotiations were shared by The Boston Globe’s Alex Speier, who reports that the Sox viewed Matt Olson’s extension with the Braves as a possible model for a Devers deal.
Olson signed his eight-year, $168MM extension (with a $20MM club option for 2030) just a day after Atlanta landed the first baseman in a blockbuster trade with the Athletics. Both Devers and Olson are in the same service-time class, and were under control through the 2023 via a final year of arbitration eligibility. Back in April, MLBTR’s Anthony Franco looked at Devers through the lens of the Olson extension, but also made the point that “obviously, Olson and Devers don’t make for an apples-to-apples comparison.”
From Boston’s perspective, eight years and $168MM had been established as the market rate for a star first baseman, and Speier writes that the Sox were looking for an extension in that range “citing the likelihood that Devers would spend much of the contract either at first base or designated hitter.”
There have long been questions about Devers’ long-term viability as a third baseman, as (depending on the defensive metric of choice) his glovework has generally been subpar for his entire career. This year, Devers has a -6.6 UZR/150, -2 Defensive Runs Saved, and an even 0 in Outs Above Average, indicating some small improvement from his previous numbers. For what it’s worth, OAA is the metric that has been most favorable to Devers, as his glovework in 2019 received a whopping +17 OAA (with a more modest +2.4 UZR/150 and -5 DRS).
Olson happens to be one of the league’s better defensive first basemen, which undoubtedly also figured into the argument the Red Sox put forth to Devers’ agents at Rep 1 Baseball. However, it is also pretty easy to understand the counter-arguments that Devers’ camp could make. Devers is over two and a half years younger than Olson, third base is the more difficult position, and Devers has more upside at the plate.
From 2017-2021, Devers hit .279/.338/.509 with 112 home runs over 2344 plate appearances. Over that same stretch, Olson hit .254/.348/.515 with 142 homers in 2341 PA, with Olson also playing his home games in the pitcher-friendly Coliseum while Devers hit at Fenway Park. Of course, Devers also began his MLB career at age 20, and he has already been a significant contributor to a World Series champion.
The 2022 season has done more to enhance Devers’ case for a huge contractual investment. Devers leads all AL batters with 112 hits at the All-Star break, with 22 homers and a .324/.379/.601 slash line in 377 PA. A below-average walk rate (a consistent issue for Devers throughout his career) is pretty much the only blemish on an otherwise strong Statcast page, as while Devers’ whiff rate and chase rate are both mediocre, he is in the 70th percentile for strikeout rate — his 18% K% is the second-lowest of his career. Devers’ 170 wRC+ is the fourth-best of any qualified batter in the league, topped by only Yordan Alvarez, Paul Goldschmidt, and Aaron Judge.
Devers is scheduled to reach free agency in advance of his age-27 season, and this earlier entry to the open market carries the promises of more prime years under contract, and thus a bigger asking price for any interested team. Devers avoided arbitration with the Sox and is playing the 2022 season on an $11.2MM salary, so it is easy to project that his 2023 arb salary will be in the $16MM range. Assuming that Boston’s extension offer covered the 2023 campaign and assuming an offer in the neighborhood of Olson’s deal, that would’ve priced Devers’ first seven free agent years (his age-27-33 years) at roughly $152MM.
Beyond trying to find a magic salary number that is acceptable to both sides, the larger question could be whether the Red Sox have interest in locking up Devers at anything that isn’t a semi-bargain price. On paper, there’s plenty of long-term room in Boston’s payroll for a Devers mega-deal. A lot of money is coming off the books after the season, with the likes of Xander Bogaerts, J.D. Martinez, Nathan Eovaldi, Christian Vazquez, Michael Wacha, Enrique Hernandez, Jackie Bradley Jr., and James Paxton all either scheduled for free agency, or potential free agents based on contractual options (such as Bogaerts’ opt-out clause, which he is widely expected to exercise).
Locking up Devers would be a way to reinforce the lineup should some or all of those batters depart, and essentially make him the face of the franchise for the remainder of the decade. Trevor Story’s six-year, $140MM free agent deal is the largest contract given to any Red Sox player since Chaim Bloom was hired as the organization’s chief baseball officer. On the extension front, the Sox gave an early-career deal to Garrett Whitlock and short-term extensions to Matt Barnes and Andrew Benintendi, but nothing remotely in the realm of what a Devers extension would cost. It remains to be seen how Bloom is planning to remodel Boston’s roster during what could be a rather transformative offseason, and of course, there is still plenty of time for further negotiations with Devers before the third baseman hits the open market.
Sideline Redwine
All I know is he crushes the Rays, and I hope he goes to the NL West. The guy rakes.
Captain Judge99
@Sideline Redwine- Yeah I feel the same way. He destroys the Yankees with his bat, and his gold glove defense at 3rd base. Lol. Whatever it takes to get Mr. Rake out of the AL East. I’m definitely game. Maybe Machado opts out, and he goes to San Diego with Tatis? I hope so.
eferrer1
He does not have gold glove defense. Not even close. I watch him everyday and his defense is suspect.
KyleT
Devers defense is much better this season. He’s showing improvement. Its at least passable.
Redsoxx_62
I may never recover if we let Devers walk
Captain Judge99
@Redsoxx_62- Nah Devers is your franchise player, you can’t let him get away. It seems like you guys never really recovered after trading Mookie Betts. Trading Devers you’ll never get his true worth back as far as prospects. You got to pay the man.
Redsoxx_62
I think you misunderstood what I said, I agree that we cannot let Devers leave
KyleT
“Never really recovered after trading Mookie Betts”
That was only 3 years ago. A whole 3 years without a Championship. Its a Curse!!!— How about this, the Yankees havent recovered since Melky Cabrera left.
Pads Fans
Was going to say Matsui, but Cabrera works.
traderumors
Also the Red Sox ownership group and front office may never recover with their fan base if they let Devers walk.
KyleT
Are we going to say that every three years? The fans weren’t suppose to recover after losing Betts. Now its Devers.
Can you give me one example of this ever happening in the history of sports? Where a fan base stopped following a team due to one player leaving. Red Sox survived Babe Ruth leaving, I dont think Devers is anywhere near that level. The Melodrama here is extreme.
BoSoxGuy
One… ONE?!?! Jon Lester, Mookie Betts, Andrew Benintendi, Kyle Schwarber.. Now Devers AND Xander….. and who do they bring in when they lose these guys… PUDS.
KyleT
That is a really weak list:
-Schwarber was a three month rental.
-Benintendi had a .442 OPS when he left Boston
How about Eduardo Rodriguez, Jacoby Ellsbury, Johnny Damon and Jonathan Papelbon? They didn’t make your list, because they didnt play well after they left.
What about Chris Sale, Mike Lowell and Dustin Pedroia? Red Sox did lock those guys up. How’d that work out.
So what your saying is the Red Sox need a crystal ball, to know when it will be a good contract or bad, before they pay them. Got it. Because throwing 300 Million at Devers and another 220 Million at Bogaerts couldn’t possibly go wrong.
What I’m saying is every player needs to be evaluated separately, and based on how much it will be cost has to be factored in. This drama of “never recover” if they let players x and y leave is nonsense.
BoSoxGuy
I will give you E-Rod, I forgot that one (although glad they aren’t dealing with that debacle)..
Ellsbury couldn’t stay healthy and the Yankees OVERPAID him..
Benintendi – funny how you bring up his only down year lol. what about the other FIVE YEARS of his career..
You can turn a rental like Schwarber into a mainstay, especially when he performs and brings attitude and personality to the clubhouse.
The overarching point is NONE OF THE ABOVE ARE FACES OF THE FRANCHISE. But ya know what they do, they keep the all-stars & faces of the franchise happy and motivated. You back up the truck when franchise altering guys are due. Even if it means biting the bullet in the final year or two like with Pedroia.
But no Chaim, lets surround the all-stars with BUMS so you can expose their few deficiencies and drive the price down on them because they “underperformed”. I’d want to leave a franchise/corporation that operates that way. Teams are foaming at the mouth for the Red Sox to not resign Xander and/or Rafi
KyleT
1) “OVERPAID” — But at the same time your saying sign Devers at any cost. Do you hear yourself? Devers will easily cost 300M, 26yo – 10 years at 30mil. What if someone comes in and says 320M? Do you match it? If not, is the franchise “never going to recover” or not? Because that is what my comments are based on. If you want to alter it, start a new thread.
2) NONE OF THE PLAYER ARE . . .FACES . . . Damon helped win Boston’s first WS in 86 years, Papelbon smoking cigars in the clubhouse, Ellsbury was my favorite player — Everyone of those players were more the franchise face than Schwarber or Benintendi. Are you kidding me.
3) Bogaerts will be the 3rd best Shortstop on the market this year. Slow your roll with “teams foaming at the mouth” for him. I would love to see them let him walk, only to turn around and sign Trea Turner.
4) I didn’t pick Benintendi’s worst year for no reason. It was the season that sparked the trade. His stats were trending down for 3 straight years. It was time for him to move on. I doubt he wouldve had this kind of success in Boston, that he’s had in KC.
BoSoxGuy
Not at any cost for Devers, just show the league and your Team you understand the importance of certain guys.. If you have to overextend by a couple million – well, as the Boston Red Sox you have that luxury. This isn’t some baron small mkt sports town.
Schwarber and Beni not the faces I was talking about (Rafi & X are).
Teams will be foaming at the mouth for all 3 (Turner, Correa, & Xander).
A 25 yr old with one or two down years (one of which was when he played FOURTEEN GAMES and Roenicke was the Skip) is not cause to sell. In fact, good case to be made if you wanted to compare Beni and Damon
KyleT
No one will disagree if youre “a couple million” apart. Come on. Its when your 50 million apart.
Reminder of your first post:
” Red Sox ownership group and front office may never recover with their fan base if they let Devers walk.”
That means at ‘any cost’. Theres no other way to take that.
You cant have it both way. “they’ll never recover if they dont sign him” and now youre saying “not at any costs”. Sounds like your trying to change your position to me.
BoSoxGuy
If it is compounded by losing Xander, they cannot recover. Two all-star caliber players in one off-season is a problem. So if X is as good as gone, then yes – Rafi needs to be retained @ any cost
kingbum
We can get away with not re-signing Xander pretty easily actually if they re-sign both Devers and JD. Move Story to short put Keke at 2nd and let Duran play CF everyday. I’m Boston I’m throwing a QO on Bogaerts so when somebody else signs him I get those draft picks.
KyleT
If it were me, I’d let JD, Xander, Kiki all walk. And try to sign Trea Turner. — Turner, Story, Devers, Casas would be best infield in majors, IMO. But, I dont think Red Sox management will break the bank for Turner.
Pads Fans
So you are saying that the offer the Red Sox made in spring training with 2 years left on Dever’s deal was an underpay?
It doesn’t seem to me like now is the time to panic about them not signing him in spring training. Devers is making $11 million this season and is only expected to make $16-17 million in arbitration this coming off season, so going straight to a $30+ million AAV extension prior to 2022 is a reach.
If he can continue to play league average defense by way of OAA then he will get another offer this offseason and it will be bigger. Probably in the range of 8/240 to 256. Maybe an extra year tacked on.
So BREATHE, The Red Sox have time to sign him
Pads Fans
They were $100 million apart in spring training. With 2 years left in arbitration and set to make less than $12 million in 2022, that was a huge reach for Devers’ representation.
Devers will make $27-28 million in 2022-2023 combined. If he doesn’t sign and becomes a free agent after 2023 then he will probably get a deal with a $30 million AAV, but not before the 2022 season with 2 years left in arbitration. Certainly not the $36 million AAV he was asking for.
Think about what Devers was asking for. $288 million over 8 years.
Subtract the $28 million max he will make in 2022-2023 and that leaves $260 million over 6 years. That is more than $43 million AAV for his free agent years.
Not just no, “F” no for a guy that will be a full time 1B or a DH in 3 or 4 years.
Fever Pitch Guy
Really don’t have time for this nonsense now, but to say guys like Damon didn’t play well after leaving Boston is comical. He had a better OPS and OPS+ in his 4 years with the Yanks than he did in his 4 years with the Sox.
And Pap’s 4 years in Philly were very similar to his 7 years in Boston.
Bos = 2.33 ERA and 1.02 WHIP
Philly = 2.31 ERA and 1.02 WHIP
And you’re really gonna write off ERod after just 8 games? Seriously?
What about Lester’s numbers with Oakland and the Cubs?
What about Boggs with the Yanks?
kingbum
If I’m getting Trea Turner I would do the same, but John Henry wants to either shed or keep payroll where it is at. You could let Keke go and just bring up Yorke but given what Keke did in the playoffs last year and how he hasn’t had a full season to determine how much of a fluke that was I thought ya give him a chance like Dalbec (great 2020) to prove it. Dalbec has shown he’s a bum with power like Gallo but without the walks.
yourfathersmeltofellsburys
$300M for ten (including the arb year)?
Pads Fans
Do the math. He will make $16-17 next season in arbitration. $300 million minus $177 million is $283 million. Divided by 9 = $31.44 million for his FA years.
That is definitely in line with what he will be offered in free agency,
Its also far less than the $36 million AAV he was asking for in spring training prior to 2022 and that included 2 arbitration years in which the maximum he will make is $28 million.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Out of Bogaerts, Martinez, and Devers, this is the one we need to keep. This isn’t a Betts situation. Lock him up for years to come.
Sad to say if we do get him, Bogaerts goes to the Yankees.
You Can Put It In The Books
It’s kind of early to make a proclamation about where Bogaerts will sign lol
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Just a bold prediction but the main point is to sign Devers. Bogaerts is just about gone with Story and doubtful Bloom signs JD.
YankeesBleacherCreature
Why would the Yankees sign Bogaerts? to play at what position?
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
I read it somewhere. Yankees just sign the best players. They could easily improve at SS by signing Bogaerts
YankeesBleacherCreature
IKF occupies SS for the next 2+ years and has done a decent job. We all know about Xander’s defense. They also have two SS prospects waiting in the wings. I can only see him signing to play 1B AND that’s IF Rizzo decides to opt-out. I’d be shock if XB is on the Yankees’ radar.
Captain Judge99
@pwndroia- Nah we’ll pass on Xander Bogaerts. I have my heart set on Trea Turner. With Judge due for that extension, and Soto going somewhere for top prospects, thinking Turner’s not coming to the Yankees. How much is Trea Turner getting annually as a free agent? My guess is $30-35 million.
YankeesBleacherCreature
That’s unlikely to happen with Gleyber at 2nd and playing well. DJL also needs ABs.
KyleT
How many teams have the money and the need for a SS? Turner, Correa and Bogaerts. Sounds like someone is going to be disappointed. My guess is Bogaerts doesn’t get the $$$ he thinks, unless he moves off SS, and he’s been against that for a while.
PipptyPoppitygivemetheZoppity
The Red Sox don’t deserve any respect any longer its sad
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
Why?
Samuel
pwndroia;
LOL
The same people that complain about Chris Sale’s contract.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
I never complained about his contract. Just answer the question.
PipptyPoppitygivemetheZoppity
They charge ridiculous amount to get into the home games and then let their best players walk
LordD99
Do I hear $460MM?
rhswanzey
They tried to pay him less than 200m?
This penny wise, pound foolish front office is lucky that either Devers or Bogaerts is still willing to talk to them imo.
stymeedone
How much are power hitting 1B getting these days? Most teams would not play him at 3B.
rhswanzey
A legitimate playoff contender is starting both of Kyle Schwarber and Nick Castellanos with neither one at DH. It just takes one team; there are *certainly* more than a couple that would keep Devers at third in the short and medium term.
Pads Fans
Devers’ defense had been atrocious up through 2021 ( -38 DRS), so prior to this season the consensus was he would move to 1B or DH almost immediately.
Now let’s do the math.
At the time the Red Sox made their offer in spring training Devers was set to earn $11.2 million. (They had already settled to avoid arbitration) He will make $16-17 million in 2023. So this is what we are looking at with the Red Sox offer.:
2022 – $11.2 million
2023 – $17 million max
2024-2029 – $160 million or $26.67 million AAV for 6 free agent years.
Devers’ agent countered with $288 million over 8 years
Same $28 million for Devers’ 2 arbitration years
$260 million or $43.3 million AAV for 6 free agent years.
The Red Sox came in a little low and Devers’ agent came in ridiculously high for a guy that everyone expected to have to move off 3B before 2024. Even if he stays on 3B, there is no way he gets $43 million AAV in free agency or anything close.
Even if he played above average SS or CF, its doubtful he would get that kind of money. Knowing he will eventually have to move off 3B its laughable
So what do YOU think would be reasonable for a 1B or DH that hits as well as Devers?
kingbum
For Devers I’d go as high as $30M AAV over 6 years. That’s in the ballpark of Trevor Story who doesn’t hit as well as Devers but defensively they don’t compare Story is better. I’m paying Devers as a 1B/DH because I’m moving him to DH once Martinez is gone. Anything more than that is over paying his impact on the game. Anything more than $30 million a year it has to be either a two-way player like Ohtani, an Ace, A SS, or CF to make sense.
cubsmetsbrewers
Whoops. These guys are creaks. If Devers made the play yesterday chris sale wouldn’t have a broken finger
Poster formerly known as . . .
I don’t think that’s exactly how probability works.
whyhayzee
Actually, it’s called conditional probability. There’s the probability given Devers does make the play and there’s the probability given that Devers doesn’t make the play. Your conjecture is that they are independent events. You’re probably right. I’ve been learning, applying and teaching probability since 1975. I still haven’t gotten it all figured out yet. But getting hit by a line drive sort of always has the same probability regardless of what happens around it.
cubsmetsbrewers
Matt c would have been the third out of the inning u putz
whyhayzee
But getting hit by a line drive sort of always has the same probability regardless of what happens around it.
It’s just bad luck, not somebody’s fault.
Red Sox fan since 1963. Been through a lot.
You want to blame Tony C’s getting hit in the head because some jerk ran on the field? The whole time the pitcher just stood there? No warmups or anything. Then BAM, the end of a great career in the making. That may have some merit.
You want to blame Bucky Dent’s home run on his faking an injury after fouling it off his foot instead of stepping right back in like a man? And Mike Torrez standing there like a statue? And the next pitch, BAM, a brand new middle name.
cubsmetsbrewers
Boys for you hazy
Poster formerly known as . . .
“Matt c would have been the third out of the inning u putz”
Which doesn’t in any way negate the possibility of Hicks drilling Sale in his next at-bat.
Pads Fans
His logic is sound, even if his way of putting it was not.
That line drive would have not been hit and Sale would not have been hurt, because the previous batter was the 3rd out if Devers makes a relatively easy play instead of an error.
rmullig2
It’s not like Aaron Hicks would have come up to the plate in the second inning and broken Sale;s hand.
Poster formerly known as . . .
And you know that, how?
Bobby smac9
100 million off? ….So does 8/240 put them in the ball park?
BoSoxGuy
8 @ 310-320. Face of the franchise reason you can sell jersey’s and tickets. 30M – 40M is NOTHING to this team in 5-8 years
Pads Fans
So you are saying Devers should get $47 million AAV or more for the 6 free agent years of that 8 year deal?
Lets do the math.
$310 million
– the $28 million he will make in 2022-2023 in arbitration
($11.2 million in 2022 which they had agreed upon before making him an offer and $16-17 million in 2023)
= $282 million
$282 million divided by 6 free agent years = $47 million AAV
That is insane. Even Devers’ agent was not asking for that much. People really need to do the math first before throwing numbers out.
rmullig2
If they had offered that before the season maybe. After what he’s done so far this year his price has definitely gone up just like Judge’s.
Pads Fans
Wow. You think he should get more than $47 million AAV for his FA years?
Bruin1012
I think 10/300 is about right for Devers. Xander is gone but they should lock up Devers who is much younger. Lock the kid up he can flat out rake and if he’s a DH on the back half of that contract it’s ok with inflation and all.
Samuel
I understand pulling stats from previous years for comparison, but….
1. Defensive statistics are pretty off-base.
2. Devers has improved quite a bit at 3B based on his play this year. He makes difficult plays look routine. The man has obviously done a lot of hard work. Good chance he even gets better in the future as he’s only 25.
As for the contracts coming off the books – that’s true but there’s more to building a contending team then dumping 8 contracts to pay one guy. As Boras stated about Soto 6-7 months ago – he and Soto wanted to see what sort of team would be put around him.
It’s pretty clear that both Henry and Bloom are putting a priority on a new core of young players. Some won’t be up from the minors for a year or two….maybe longer. It appears the objective is to have Devers be one of the star players they build around. Story as well, although he’s more of a quality veteran than a star.
It’s obviously up to Devers if he wants to stay. Rest assured the Mets and possibly the Dodgers will probably pay his ask….maybe the Yankees as well. Giants might cough up the money. Artie may fall off the wagon. A team like the Brewers might figure his bat gets them back in the WS and starts unloading salary in preparation.
At this point my take is that Devers and his agents wait a year and see where team are at that might be interested in him. He’s not a FA until 2024.
rhswanzey
I always find it curious when people treat Devers like he’s a DH playing third base. It’s pretty clearly folks who are scouting the stat line. He has good hands and can make some really impressive picks over there. Many of his errors are on throws. The organization had him work on first step this past offseason. He didn’t make his first error until May.
There’s defensive tools here. One thing we’ve seen is that Devers is hard on himself, and sometimes he carries a strikeout or a misplay into the next inning, or the next game. He’s gotten better about that. This isn’t a case of a guy who has five feet of lateral range and bad hands. I don’t think it’s out of the question at all that he will still be playing third base in his thirties.
Bobby smac9
He does sometimes make the incredible play and has improved with the glove, no doubt. One could speculate that he will continue to improve in the field and be able to remain at third for at least most of his remaining career. With JD being in his last contract year, the shift of Devers to DH makes sense for next season. At least sharing that role would benefit the club.
Pads Fans
He is slightly below average defensively at -1 so far this season according to OAA. He is below average in the other defensive metrics, -3 DRS and -4.1 UZR.
ALL of the defensive metrics, including OAA tell you that you need approximately 3 full seasons of games to make any comparative measurements about defensive capability.
Over the last 450 games played, about 3 full time seasons, Devers has a -32 DRS and a -8 OAA. Far below average.
By no stretch of the imagination is he a good defensive 3B and every article written about him says that he is expected to be at 1B or DH starting next season. The Red Sox have also indicated that they see him as a 1B going forward.
When everyone that gets paid to offer their opinions about baseball agree, then they are most likely correct.
KyleT
“By no stretch of the imagination is he a good defensive 3B”— No one said that, please reread the earlier posts in the thread.
Devers was a terrible defensive 3B, but has shown great strides this year, to the point he’s average. To use a 3 year average is just disguising his progress. He may regress, but usually defense doesnt regress, certainly not like hitting can.
Reminds me of Wade Boggs, he came into the league as a terrible defensive 3rd baseman, but around 3rd season he made great strides and was one of the better defensive 3Bs for the rest of his playing days. However, once he got that poor glove reputation at third, it stuck with him his whole career.
Pads Fans
To use a 450 game average is what the developers of all the defensive metrics say is necessary to get an accurate gauge of defensive performance.
If you just take this years stats, he is not getting much better. Devers has 12 errors in 2 months (He didn’t have one the first 3 weeks of the season). He is 21st in OAA among everyday 3B, 14 outs behind the best 3B. Remember, OAA is outs above AVERAGE, not a measure of how good a player actually is in terms of runs saved.
Devers is far from good on defense. 14 outs and 10 runs saved from good so far this season.
Boggs had one season that was below average on defense until he turned 40 and that was in 1990. Every other season he was above average in both rTOT and dWAR.
Devers is not Boggs with the glove and will spend the majority of his career, whether its with the Red Sox or another team, at 1B or DH,
KyleT
You rely far too much on statistics. Youre judging Boggs on stats that werent even invented yet. (rTOT and dWAR)
“21st in OAA among everyday 3B” I see he’s 21st out of 36. With 30 teams, how exactly are the other 6 playing everyday?
KyleT
For example Bobby Witt makes the “everyday 3B” list ahead of Devers. Witt has played 61 games at SS and 30 games at 3B. He obviously should be listed as a SS not a 3B. Since shortstops are usually better defenders than 3Bers, wouldnt this change the “average” for “outs above average”. Thus Devers -1 isnt really that. You follow stats too blindly.
KyleT
Sorry for the multiple posts, but I keep finding flaws in your look at statstics not the games logic:
Wade Boggs, 1983, his first full season in the Bigs:
DWar 1.o, Rtot 7.0, Errors 27
Do you see something inconsistent in those numbers? He was Above average in Rtot, above replacement in DWar, yet among 3Bs, he LED THE LEAGUE IN ERRORS! You can’t trust stats retroactively put on players after they’ve retired. No one is going back and watching every single game, to determine which plays are playable. Someone said, yeah he’s in the hall of fame and was a good defender, give him 1 DWar for the ’83 season.
rhswanzey
I find it interesting that three years of defensive data is needed for stabilization, yet when calculating single season WAR, single season defensive data is input without second thought
I also find it interesting that defensive metrics were developed before rampant shifting
Defensive metrics are data points but not the entirety of what is going on on the field
KyleT
Spot on rh.
kingbum
To MudyChicken’s point out of 36 15-24 would be in the average range and Devers is 21st. That is average.
jimthegoat
Just because one gets paid to offer their opinions about baseball doesn’t mean they have any idea what they are talking about (I’m looking at you Michael Wilbon).
mikedickinson
I have zero faith in Bloom to get this right. Both Bogaerts and Devers should be resigned. As a Sox fan, I always hear how hard it is to adjust to Boston (Price, Crawford, Panda, etc). Well, these guys have proven that they can play in Boston. Sign them.
KyleT
Bogaerts and Devers will cost around 500 to 600 million combined. And they have to think about getting another Ace or at least a #2 for the rotation. If you believe the new management is going to continue on its course of not breaking the bank and crippling their player development, you have to assume one of them is gone.
I’d take Devers over Bogaerts. Devers has the better bat, is 4 years younger, and is showing improvement in his defense. Bogaerts refusal to change positions plus the declining power numbers, scares me away from offering a long-term deal.
BoSoxGuy
MAYBE 500M.. and FSG can effing afford it! Acting like a bag of trash. One of the top AMERICAN SPORT FRANCHISES and they don’t care. Pretty clear considering nobody knows wtf they are doing
KyleT
“nobody knows wtf they are doing”
Step 1) Develop Farm System
Step 2) Supplement Farm System with trades, instead of depleting
Step 3) Bring in Free Agents to fill positions that weren’t covered by homegrown players
Step 4) Always keep Team Salary around max, so as not to cause penalties to kick in, yet still field the most competitive team, without hurting farm.
There, written so that even you can understand.
BoSoxGuy
Who cares about the Farm when they sell the farm guys off 4-5 yrs later. Ellsbury, Papelbon, Benintendi, Lester, E-Rod, Mookie.. shall I go on….
If they paid/kept their guys it would make sense.. when they don’t care to resign or pay their Farm guys, it becomes contradictory.
A farm full of chicks isn’t gonna lay eggs pal. You need to have some chickens you know will produce to have a productive Farm.
KyleT
Everyone one of those players you mentioned helped bring Championships to Boston. Boston has the most WS rings of any team this Century. They won those championships spread out using new players along the way. Are you saying its not working? Who’s doing it better, since the current ownership took over?
Bobby smac9
It will be interesting to see if step 4 is kept around max at the end of spring training next year.
JoeBrady
Ellsbury, Papelbon, Benintendi, Lester, E-Rod, Mookie.. shall I go on….
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You probably shouldn’t. The combined salary of those guys is about (22+26+12+7+30+15) $112M. And you’d need a lot more than that to win. Those guys might’ve averaged 11-12 WAR on average for their new teams.
stymeedone
Ok, how many year are you comfortable paying them. Its not just the AAV, it the years. Dever’s basically a 1B/DH hiding at 3B. He may be on his prime, but he will want a contract that takes him past his prime. Bogaerts will want to be paid like a SS, when he’s one of the worst defensively. If you want a taste of what the back ends will be like, Detroit will trade you Miggy, now. You can play him at 3B if you like.
kingbum
Gotta pay Nate he’s gonna want Ace money and he deserves it he’s an Ace. Bogaerts is more replaceable than Eovaldi.
JoeBrady
I don’t think we gotta. I wouldn’t mind paying him, but he is too risky. He’s only had one good season with us in 2021. The other three seasons have combined for a 2.5 bWAR. Someone will likely offer him three years, and I just don’t see him staying healthy for three years.
Assuming a decent second half, I’d offer him a QO and would be fine if he accepted or if we got the draft pick.
Bobby smac9
They would love to keep Devers, but want him at what they perceive as an affordable price. So the question begs, what is affordable in their eyes for a great hitting, glove challenged player? What is the top dollar figure for a DH?
kingbum
About what Boston already offered really….
Bobby smac9
Agreed, I think they let him walk after 23
Poster formerly known as . . .
Olson is three years older. I get why the Sox want to base the negotiation on that comparison, but it’s not really supportable.
deweybelongsinthehall
During negotiations comps that “fit” your argument are always used. “Fit” is subject to interpretation. I love Devers but he’s not a true two way superstar. His glove work has looked at times better but remains inconsistent. His value will always be with the stick. I believe they will work it out. As for Bogie, the team agreed to the opt out so the idea of him leaving was always there. Sports contracts continue to outpace inflation and will always be an issue. Look at Sale and Strassberg for reasons why teams remain concerned.
Pads Fans
Olson plays exceptional defense. Devers is bad at 3B and the Red Sox plan on playing him at 1B starting in 2023.
So the comparison has to be the bat. Since 2018 Olson has played 599 games while putting up a 131 OPS+. Over that same period Devers has played 576 games and put up a 127 OPS+.
They are comparable bats. Olson signed for 8/168. Devers will get slightly more than that because he is 3 years younger.
He will definitely not get the $43 million AAV his agent was asking for his free agent years when they made a counter offer to the Red Sox prior to the start of this season.
all in the suit that you wear
You and Chicken are making good points. I’m somewhat hesitant to give Devers a huge contract because I’m not sure he works hard at staying in shape. He can get away with it now when he is young, but maybe not later. Also, I think the Red Sox see Triston Casas as their future first baseman, not Devers. So, Devers may be limited to DH long term. Maybe Casas could move to left field or something, but I’ve heard no talk of him moving so far.
Poster formerly known as . . .
There may come a day when defensive metrics agree and can be relied upon for accuracy, but, as my good friend Aragorn says, it is not this day.
Shawn W.
Sox have to choose extending Devers over Bogaerts so they short changed their offer(s) to Bogaerts. 25 other teams would have just extended Bogaerts but he is #2 priority in Boston.
Pads Fans
Bogaerts is probably priority 4 or 5 in Boston. They need to replace their 10 free agents (4 of which have been regulars when healthy), add an Ace or at least a #2 starter, extend Devers, and then after all those things are done to extend Bogaerts.
Along with extending Bogaerts, they have to convince him to move off SS. He is simply terrible defensively. If he won’t do that, its not worth extending him. Let him walk and get the draft pick from the QO. If there is still a QO.
Goose
Bogaerts, and Devers should be no brainers. They can play and perform in Boston, which gets overlooked where a lot of guys wilt in Boston, New York and Philly.
Devers is super young. Even if his D drops off in the next few years, if Mayer is the real deal your infield becomes Bogaerts at 3B, Mayers at SS, Story at 2B and Devers at 1B.
It makes no sense because Martinez and Eovaldi are coming off the books as well as other dead money. Price and Bradley are off next year. You get to shift dead money to better players and keeping your foundation.
deweybelongsinthehall
Sale is a question mark and pitching is still key. The team will always spend it’s just a question of do you want to have $100m tied up on the infield? I’m not counting on Mayer yet but you build a team and players you lose also have to be replaced. I’d love to see the team extend JBJ but at a big time lower AAV, more representative of his great glove value.
Cooperdooper7
I posted this in another thread yesterday…. its relevant to this coming out.
I love Bogey…. but this week alone his defense on at least 3 or four occasions has cost them runs and ultimately games… Its not blatant errors, but it’s not making plays on balls in the hole( Tampa 6th inning last Tuesday Harold Ramirez grounder — perfect example of not making a play that should been made). Botching a DP ball that they only get 1 out instead of two. If they bring him back… he needs to play 3B. Move Devers to 1st (The majority of all his errors are throwing). Keep Story at second and bring in a defensive short stop until Marcelo Mayer is ready. They can let Jeter Downs play a bunch in the second half to see if he can cut it. They need to trade JD at the deadline as well as Kiki. Then they should throw a boat load of cash on the Table for Judge (just to drive up the price) and sign Raffy to a 8 year deal for around 256 mill.. (32..5 mill per season
JoeBrady
I fear you are correct. I think we can still make the playoffs, but likely as the #3 WC instead of the #1 WC. And without Sale, it is hard to imagine any playoff success. In addition to JD and Kiki, we should also offload Eovaldi. If he can maintain his 3.34 (a big if), he’ll have good value at the deadline.
And unless we can convince Bogaerts to sign, we might have to cut bait with him. I like the guy a lot, but I don’t want to go into the off-season not knowing whether he’ll still be with us. And we can still re-sign him in the off-season.
But if we do that, it would be hugely helpful to lock in Devers. We need to throw something to the fans.
Bobby smac9
They signed Story as insurance in the event Bogaerts was going to opt out of his contract. Bogaerts is at present, not a major league defender as SS. He doesn’t want to move to 3B. What do they do? Let him walk and attach a QO to him. He’ll refuse and the sox payroll obligation will be under 100 million for 23. That will allow for Devers to get his payday.
all in the suit that you wear
If I’m the Red Sox and Bogaerts is saying he will never move off shortstop, I am definitely not giving him a long-term contract.
KyleT
Let him walk, try to sign Trea Turner. Better SS, but a bit pricier. Bogaerts declining power numbers worry me. — I doubt they’ll do that though, they have so many high draft pick middle infielders in the minors. (Matthew Lugo, Nick Yorke, Marcelo Mathew, Brainer Bonaci), plus they drafted 3 in the first 4 rounds this week.
all in the suit that you wear
Yes. Plus they have Story. I guess they could eat a lot of his salary and trade him eventually.
Cooperdooper7
Another point…. Has Raffy’s Defense improved because Dave O’Brien repeats it 3 x every broadcast? He is still making key errors (throwing for the most part) which has cost them games. (Versus Cincy at home in beginning of June for example).
The improvement has been slight IMO.
JoeBrady
He has a lot of defensive talent, but just loses focus too often. He started out errorless thru May 2nd. So that’s 12 errors in 62 games. No matter how good you are on the highlight reel, you cannot keep making errors.
Claydagoat
I hate to say it, but trade Bogey for whatever you can get and pay Devers whatever he wants..
Cost of doing bidness.
Bobby smac9
They come out of the break with games against >..500 teams. Must add arms if they’re going to compete. No two ways about it.