Steve, you’re right on with the Cards. I get good development, but when you follow prospects a lot and aren’t well familiar with the dudes making noise, you start to wonder just how they do it.
I’d love to see Josh Thole and R.A. Dickey go out there today, straight off the couch, and pitch a shutout. Dickey was the most underrated signing of Omar Minaya’s tenure with the Mets.
I asked Steve if he could run a poll on Molina being 1st ballot. I doubt the BBWAA puts him in, much less 1st ballot. Only two C have ever went 1st ballot, and he’s no Bench or Pudge, nor near the calibre of many guys who didn’t get in right away, like Piazza or Berra.
Posey should definitely be a first ballot guy. The problem is. The BBWAA gives the hall of fame about as much validity as the AllStar Game… if you’re popular, you’re in and we will look past your lack of numbers and/or failed drug test. If you are popular, you’ll never get in despite being generational players.
Until the hall includes Bonds, Clemens and Schilling or boots guys like Ortiz and Pudge, the Hall of Fame has no validity
Posey was the best catcher hands down during his career. In 11 seasons he posted a 44 WAR and he missed a large portion of time due to his injury. He won ROY, MVP and 5 silver sluggers, 2 come back player of the year awards and the Hank Aaron award. His 36.6 7 year peak puts him in hall of fame range as does his 5.5/162.
Molina has never won an MVP, he had two outlier seasons that put him in the top 10. His 7 year peak WAR is no where near hall of fame worthy, his war per 162 is not hall of fame worthy, nor is his over all WAR, his over all war is a little better than 2 war per season.
It’s not a serious disconnect, Molina has had longevity and a name, Posey has a higher career war in about half as many games because Posey was vastly superior as a player to Molina.
And defense, again I’m about half as many games Posey posted a 117 DRS to 177. Molina is a great defensive catcher but he’s been a one trick pony the majority of his career. Two great seasons does not make you a hall of famer
Molina is borderline at best, what is his career WAR? 56 or so? Gold gloves are meaningless… just look at all the GG jeter has and he was awful defensively.
But, when I think about what makes a Hall of Fame player I ask myself, “Was he clearly the best player at his position for a good chunk of his career?” If you don’t think Molina has been the best, you aren’t being objective.
He came into the league and clearly wasn’t on piazza or pudges level… he wasn’t better than posey or mauer. Has he even been better than salvy Perez since 2011?
Fact is, Molina has never been the best at his position for any portion of his career. He’s been good but he wasn’t even better than Jason Kendal and their careers crossed over.
So ask yourself again the same question.
And I was WAY too generous on the WAR… 42 WAR in 19 seasons?
By the trade simulator, it’s close to a fair trade. The Padres guys have a value of 53.6, while Mullins alone is worth 52.3. Most of the Padres value is with Grisham, 45.8.
So the question is do the rest sweeten the deal enough for the O’s. Weathers is the only one of them with much value at 7.7. But Azocar has a value of only 0.1, and Lamet has 0 value. If I’m the O’s I think I can get a better return elsewhere.
If Grisham was playing to that value, Padre fans would not be wanting to trade him. One also has to consider 40 man roster issues now and in December. Would the spare parts here be of any interest to Baltimore? I doubt it. Baltimore is not likely to trade Mullins, but if they would, they could do so much better than this uninspiring package. Baltimore easily says no.
We don’t necessarily want to trade Grish, we just realize Ced would be an upgrade. Great points all around by both of you; I certainly don’t know Baltimore’s 40 Man well enough to say that they need these players and/or extra parts. Perhaps a more delectable 3-man package built around Grish & Weathers isn’t too far fetched, but this is just a fantastical internet proposal. Enjoy!
Steve, you’re right on with the Cards. I get good development, but when you follow prospects a lot and aren’t well familiar with the dudes making noise, you start to wonder just how they do it.
I’d love to see Josh Thole and R.A. Dickey go out there today, straight off the couch, and pitch a shutout. Dickey was the most underrated signing of Omar Minaya’s tenure with the Mets.
Wainwright and Molina are not hall of fame players.
I asked Steve if he could run a poll on Molina being 1st ballot. I doubt the BBWAA puts him in, much less 1st ballot. Only two C have ever went 1st ballot, and he’s no Bench or Pudge, nor near the calibre of many guys who didn’t get in right away, like Piazza or Berra.
Posey should definitely be a first ballot guy. The problem is. The BBWAA gives the hall of fame about as much validity as the AllStar Game… if you’re popular, you’re in and we will look past your lack of numbers and/or failed drug test. If you are popular, you’ll never get in despite being generational players.
Until the hall includes Bonds, Clemens and Schilling or boots guys like Ortiz and Pudge, the Hall of Fame has no validity
Posey will get in eventually. I doubt it’s first ballot either because of the short career, but he will.
drasco, Posey should be first ballot but Molina isn’t even a Hall of Famer? That’s a serious disconnect.
Posey was the best catcher hands down during his career. In 11 seasons he posted a 44 WAR and he missed a large portion of time due to his injury. He won ROY, MVP and 5 silver sluggers, 2 come back player of the year awards and the Hank Aaron award. His 36.6 7 year peak puts him in hall of fame range as does his 5.5/162.
Molina has never won an MVP, he had two outlier seasons that put him in the top 10. His 7 year peak WAR is no where near hall of fame worthy, his war per 162 is not hall of fame worthy, nor is his over all WAR, his over all war is a little better than 2 war per season.
It’s not a serious disconnect, Molina has had longevity and a name, Posey has a higher career war in about half as many games because Posey was vastly superior as a player to Molina.
And defense, again I’m about half as many games Posey posted a 117 DRS to 177. Molina is a great defensive catcher but he’s been a one trick pony the majority of his career. Two great seasons does not make you a hall of famer
I agree with you on Wainwright. But Molina with 9 gold gloves, 2 World Series, 2k+ hits is a sure fire hall of famer.
Molina is borderline at best, what is his career WAR? 56 or so? Gold gloves are meaningless… just look at all the GG jeter has and he was awful defensively.
Don’t disagree on Jeter.
But, when I think about what makes a Hall of Fame player I ask myself, “Was he clearly the best player at his position for a good chunk of his career?” If you don’t think Molina has been the best, you aren’t being objective.
Was he?
He came into the league and clearly wasn’t on piazza or pudges level… he wasn’t better than posey or mauer. Has he even been better than salvy Perez since 2011?
Fact is, Molina has never been the best at his position for any portion of his career. He’s been good but he wasn’t even better than Jason Kendal and their careers crossed over.
So ask yourself again the same question.
And I was WAY too generous on the WAR… 42 WAR in 19 seasons?
I’ll let you do your own research, but he’s pretty widely considered a sure fire hall of famer.
Yup he’s a hall of famer no question.
by a lot of people who aren’t BBWAA members
Grisham, Azocar, Lamet and Weathers for Ced Mullins.
Baltimore laughs and hangs up.
…and then, upon reflecting on their recent history, they call back frantically and counteroffer.
So long as we’re sending garbage to Baltimore, Preller should send a few bus loads of the Gaslamp’s finest unsheltered population over as well.
Swing and a miss! Oh and one to the batter…
I thought it was pretty funny. I’ll see myself out.
By the trade simulator, it’s close to a fair trade. The Padres guys have a value of 53.6, while Mullins alone is worth 52.3. Most of the Padres value is with Grisham, 45.8.
So the question is do the rest sweeten the deal enough for the O’s. Weathers is the only one of them with much value at 7.7. But Azocar has a value of only 0.1, and Lamet has 0 value. If I’m the O’s I think I can get a better return elsewhere.
If Grisham was playing to that value, Padre fans would not be wanting to trade him. One also has to consider 40 man roster issues now and in December. Would the spare parts here be of any interest to Baltimore? I doubt it. Baltimore is not likely to trade Mullins, but if they would, they could do so much better than this uninspiring package. Baltimore easily says no.
We don’t necessarily want to trade Grish, we just realize Ced would be an upgrade. Great points all around by both of you; I certainly don’t know Baltimore’s 40 Man well enough to say that they need these players and/or extra parts. Perhaps a more delectable 3-man package built around Grish & Weathers isn’t too far fetched, but this is just a fantastical internet proposal. Enjoy!
If Waino is a HOF’er, (and I’m not saying he’s not) it puts about 10-15 more retired pitchers squarerly in the HOF conversation.
Mussina comes to mind
Mussina is in the HOF – inducted in 2019.