One of the major storylines of this past offseason was the extent to which the Reds would cut spending. General manager Nick Krall’s November quote about “aligning our payroll to our resources” became oft-repeated as Cincinnati parted with notable players like Sonny Gray, Wade Miley and Jesse Winker in money-saving moves while making virtually no effort to retain free agent slugger Nick Castellanos.
The Reds did reinvest some of the saved funds into modest one-year deals with free agents Tommy Pham, Donovan Solano, Hunter Strickland, and Colin Moran, plus took on more than $7MM of payroll expenses in the Amir Garrett–Mike Minor swap with the Royals. These present-minded moves, coupled with a Cincinnati farm system that has seen its stock rise over recent years, factored into Reds President and COO Phil Castellini’s March decree for fans to “have a little bit of faith in what we’re doing with your Cincinnati Reds.”
Fans were none too pleased with Castellini’s comments, as the on-paper unit the Reds are rolling out in 2022 houses considerably less star power than the 2021 team. The team also entered the new season with a payroll $9MM lighter than the previous year (per Cot’s Baseball Contracts). With several young pitchers forcing their way onto the team’s roster at eminently affordable rates, an argument can be made to have kept at least one of the team’s departed stars.
Early Tuesday, Phil Castellini joined WLW 700’s Scott Sloan and Mo Egger and was asked why fans should maintain trust in Reds leadership. Addressing this question, as well some fans’ calls to sell the team, Castellini replied:
“Well where are you gonna go? Let’s start there. I mean, sell the team to who? That’s the other thing – you want to have this debate? If you want to look at what would you do with this team to have it be more profitable, make more money, compete more in the current economic system that this game exists – it would be to pick it up and move it somewhere else. And so be careful what you ask for […] we’re doing the best we can do with the resources that we have.”
It’s bizarre to see an ownership figure take such a defensive stance to criticism and all but threaten the fans, particularly on Opening Day when the Reds sold more than 43,000 tickets. (Wednesday’s attendance, per Charlie Goldsmith of the Cincinnati Enquirer, was 10,976 — though weather surely impacted that total.)
Castellini’s comments also come on the heels of a second straight offseason punctuated by transactions more oriented toward cutting payroll than toward improving the on-field product. Asking Reds fans for patience is particularly brazen given that the team’s most recent rebuilding effort is still fresh in the minds of fans. The Reds, from 2015-16, traded away the likes of Aroldis Chapman, Todd Frazier, Johnny Cueto and Mike Leake — generally coming up empty on the vast majority of those deals.
What followed was a series of three straight last-place finishes in the National League Central from 2016-18, followed by a fourth-place finish in 2019. The Reds averaged a $95MM payroll during that string of last-place finishes, ranking 25th, 25th and 22nd in leaguewide payroll along the way. Cincinnati emerged from that rebuild/retooling process and spent aggressively in the 2019-20 offseason, signing Mike Moustakas, Nick Castellanos, Shogo Akiyama and Wade Miley. The stage appeared set for the Reds, buoyed by a strong rotation and a collection of impressive sluggers, to shift back into a prolonged win-now mindset.
Instead, the Reds went 31-29 during the pandemic-shortened 2020 season, got swept in the postseason without scoring a run, and immediately began taking another step back. Raisel Iglesias was traded to the Angels in a pure salary dump, and the Reds non-tendered their two main trade-deadline acquisitions: Archie Bradley and Brian Goodwin. Krall spoke of reallocating those resources to other areas of need. Months later, on Opening Day, Sean Doolittle proved to be the Reds’ lone Major League signing — at one year and $1.5MM. The 2021-22 offseason subsequently commenced with the aforementioned “align payroll to resources” comments from Krall that preceded further payroll reduction.
Despite that frustrating sequence, Castellini further preached fan patience and loyalty throughout the day yesterday, drawing comparisons to the NFL’s Cincinnati Bengals who surprisingly emerged from a string of losing seasons en route to a Super Bowl appearance (and ignited fanbase) two months ago. In regards to the team’s payroll, Castellini also added that it “is still significantly more than the revenues we’re generating to produce it. […] For the last 16 years [we’ve] invested beyond our market size every single year.”
Those comments caused a stir among Reds fans who haven’t seen their team win a playoff series since 1995, and Castellini has since walked them back. They also come in conjunction with comments from Castellanos to ESPN’s Jesse Rogers, wherein he blasts Reds ownership for “suffocating” baseball in a “great city like Cincinnati.” Castellanos made those comments for a piece that ran before Castellini made his comments Tuesday, but even though they’re not a direct reaction, the timing is nevertheless impeccable.
Beyond riling the fanbase though, the club president’s comments potentially shed some light onto the team’s plans moving forward. If the team is indeed operating at a deficit while in Cincinnati, then it’s unlikely the payroll is set to rise much any time soon. Of course, there’s no way to verify the veracity of Castellini’s claims, as teams choose not to open their books to the public. But it’s worth noting that following MLB’s offseason streaming agreements with Apple and Peacock, each club is now set to receive roughly $65MM in national television/streaming revenue alone. That doesn’t account for gate revenue, local broadcast deals and myriad other revenue sources for Major League clubs.
Perhaps further signaling the organization’s future direction, Castellini name-checked the club’s “Big Red Machine” days of the 1970’s, indicating the way to best emulate that successful era of Reds baseball was to invest in the team’s talent pipeline and grow from within. Placing an emphasis on internal development is certainly a practical approach, but it’s sure to draw skepticism from the fanbase in context of the Reds curtailing payroll at a time when they’d already graduated a significant amount of young talent to the majors. Cincinnati has just $44.5MM on the books in 2023 and does not have any guaranteed contracts for the 2024 season.
Nice start to the season by Tommy Pham. What a shame. He’s such a likable guy.
Reds ownership spews this garbage, and you focus on one single player’s performance a few games in?
Reds ownership speed garbage. Reds players play like garbage. It’s beautiful.
*spews
Reds ownership has been like this a long time and is highly unlikely to change. At least Pham has been good before and has about 25 weeks to play better.
Good luck with THAT!
Sincerely,
The last 104 weeks.
Bro, did Pham hook up with your girl?
That’s mature and typical.
So three of the first four notes are off-topic garbage from VilleHusso35.
Why is everyone here trying to come up with numbers to break down the books for the Reds? That’s unreliable. The books aren’t open. You can’t figure it out for yourself. One thing is without question: The Reds owner, Castellini, is the poorest owner in baseball. I saw someone try to compare him to the Rays and other teams. Nope. He’s poorer. $400 million is what he is worth. Less than Alex Rodriguez. Don’t try to pretend you can open unopen books yourself. Forbes tells you he’s worth $400 million. I promise they are better at breaking down his worth than you are. Forbes gets rich by doing that for a living. The Tampa Bay owner is worth $100 million more than him. A-Rod is worth even more. Castellini should sell the team because he is too poor compared to every other owner to compete with the actual billionaire owners when he isn’t even worth close to half a billion. That doesn’t mean all this crap about people trying to interpret books that aren’t open to make it seem like he has more money than he does is true. Castellini should sell the team because he is too poor to keep up with anyone else and the money he did spend was on stupid deals like Moustakas. That doesn’t mean all this rhetoric from people who CAN’T read the books is true. Some people are too obsessed with telling every single MLB owner that they make too much money to realize that same owner is only doing a bad job because he is the poorest owner in MLB. Castellini has noticeably less money than some athletes. If you are going to say that’s untrue, you are also going to have to explain why people should trust you enough to think you know more than Forbes does about his income. You don’t. Everyone has heard of Forbes. No one has heard of you. Castellini isn’t a bad owner because he is swindling away money somewhere. He is a bad owner because he IS the poorest owner in baseball and doesn’t have nearly enough to compete. He also makes terrible baseball decisions.
Look at this list from MLBTR and try to tell me that Castellini of all owners has tons of money laying around.
mlbtraderumors.com/2021/12/mlb-owners-net-worth.ht…
Steve Cohen: $15.9 Billion
Castellini: $400 Million (dead worst in the league by at least $100 million less than any other team. Castellini is worth 20% LESS than the 2nd POOREST team in MLB.)
Also the others in the Castellini group that purchased the Reds, weren’t crazy rich. I think around 100 mil each. When a team sells for $270 million to a group worth a collective $600 million or so, you can’t really expect a high payroll.
Ohio shouldn’t be able to have two baseball teams.
@BeansforJesus: You are precisely right. These small groups of people who don’t have much money alone but can maybe pool up enough to buy a sports franchise never work. Corporations rarely work and they are far better than these small groups. The small groups inevitably disagree on things. and then it ends up all being decided by Castellini. BTW. Castellini’s net worth of $400 million INCLUDES the asset of the team. And he is the majority owner. Or at least the biggest owner and primary decision maker. This guy isn’t some super greedy multi-billionaire. He’s someone who is in way above his head. He’s never seen a billion dollars in his life and he’s trying to compete against owners whose grandchildren will die with $10 Billion in the bank. Say he should sell for that reason? Sure. Call him super greedy MLB owner elite? Take your political opinions about wealth distribution somewhere else because this is the one case where players are actually richer than the owner.
An owner’s net worth probably isn’t that important when it comes to payroll, since very few of them are dipping into their own finances to bankroll the team. It’s about the revenue the team generates each season and to that extent, I’d say he has a pretty fair point.
This isn’t a team that never spends, they tried to spend a few years ago, perhaps the ROI wasn’t there.
@Steve well put. It really forces them to tie payroll to profit. The Braves are forced to be transparent so it seems like people give them a break because “it’s a corporation”, but the Reds have to have an even tighter budget tied to the teams revenue. Not to mention when a small group of individuals without billions buy a team, they will (like most of us) prefer to get some payout from their investment. They can’t sit on the asset forever since you can’t always spend “net worth”.
Also Castellini was involved in multiple ownership groups. I believe the orioles and cardinals at some point. It seems like more of a business move/point of bragging more than putting a super competing effort team on the field. Which is perfectly fine, but you have to take the grief.
Oof *competitive* not *competing effort*
Owners’ individual worth means little when trying to run a business like a baseball franchise. Every owner is in it to make a profit without investing their personal wealth beyond what it takes to buy the team in the first place.
The issue is why the Reds are supposed having so much trouble making a profit compared to what they spent last season and especially what they had planned to spend the year before that, even after considering the huge hit taken by the pandemic, when their competitive window was finally open after a number of previous years spent rebuilding.. Even if they needed to cut their profits so that they make very little money this year, this would’ve been the time to do so, especially since they could then get a significant revenue boost from a potential playoff appearance.
Basically, their comparative levels of spending over the last few years just don’t make sense. If they were willing to spend so much in 2020, they should still have more money available now than they claim even after the pandemic.
Has nothing to do with owner wealth. Castellini was 100% correct;. Cincy is a small market, very small.. They cannot handle a sustained 150M payroll without being a top team every year. Truth hurts sometimes, deal with it.
Lesson: the Lerners are multi-billionaires, so is Fisher. Payroll depends on revenue.
I don’t think his $400 million net worth includes the equity he has in the Reds. I suspect after that is added in he will be close to a billion.
I have read published reports that the Reds would sell for as much as $1.2 billion and Castellini paid $270 million for the franchise. I don’t see it is possible Castellini’s net worth is only $400 million. The $400 million must not include his equity in the Reds.
Maybe he isnt as one-sided worldly as you are GBS? Maybe instead of referencing “spewing garbage” which is a subjective statement, by the way, you do a little research and understanding on various challenges unique to small markets, and the obvious slant, due to sources, that comes from writers at ESPN.
Maybe he just knows a little more than you?
downvoter, who is the “he” you are referring to, Castellini or Ville?
Here’s a subjective statement, “we’re doing the best we can do with the resources that we have.” Really? The Rays and A’s have done better with a lot less, so he’s wrong there.
Sportrac shows the Reds’ player obligations at just under $132M:
spotrac.com/mlb/cincinnati-reds/payroll/2022/
Half of that is covered by national TV deals, per this article. Their local TV deal gave them a “nice increase” over the previous $30M per year:
redreporter.com/2016/10/19/13338086/cincinnati-red…
That has to be *at least* $35M, so that’s $100M from TV.
They sold 1.5M tickets last year at over $21 per ticket, so that’s $32M.
Add it up, and the player payroll is covered before food, merchandise, parking, other ad revenue, etc. are considered.
After 5-10 minutes of research, I feel confident that…
‘the team’s payroll, Castellini also added that it “is still significantly more than the revenues we’re generating to produce it. […] For the last 16 years [we’ve] invested beyond our market size every single year.”’
…is garbage being spewed forth.
The new national TV and sponsorship deals are bringing in $3.75 billion. All have been publicly announced so there is no question of the amounts. Divide by 30 teams. Before a single ticket is sold or their local TV deal pays them one penny, the Reds are bringing in $125 million. In 2021, 1.5 million tickets were sold at an average of $21.14 each so that is another $31.7 million. The Reds TV deal that started in the 2018 season pays an average of $75 million per season over its 15 years in length according to the Cincinnati Business Courier. That means they are at a bare minimum of $230 million before you count all the local sponsorships, their radio deal, luxury boxes, advertising (like the ones on the outfield wall and other places in the ballpark), and concessions. Castellini is lying and is also an incompetent jerk of epic proportions.
The Reds spent a number of years previous to 2022 – as encouraged and applauded by writers at MLBTR (a least one that wrote this article) and others. They didn’t win much of anything and it financially blew up in their faces. Make no mistake, had the recent fire sale not been held that owner would facing personal bankruptcy. As for selling the team, the COO was correct – there is no market to sell small, and even some mid-market MLB franchises.
Yes it was not right to compare the Reds to the Bengals, but not for the reasons stated in the article – which was (as usual) pure demagoguery. The NFL shares most major revenues evenly between all franchises. The Bengals can compete pretty much on a level financial field with the NY, Boston, and other large market teams in the NFL. One sided-arguments like “each club is now set to receive roughly $65MM in national television/streaming revenue alone.”. – that’s for kids. Questions – .who marketed that package to Apple? How much were their commissions? How much were the legal fees all teams had to pay to get that revenue? How much did they have to pay for technical hooupos and salaries for people ton implement and maintain them? Taxes, etc.? This is just more irresponsible journalism – quoting a gross amount as if that’s what teams net. For the last 35 years I’ve wanted relatives kids thinking they were getting $x,xxx.xx a month at their first job, only to receive their initial paycheck and be in shock as the Net amount was so much lower than the Gross amount.
–
The issue with Cincinnati Reds for decades has been ownership interference. They need to hire a competent Baseball Ops person give them a budget, let them hire people that can within that budget, and leave them alone. They need to do what Cleveland recently did and Baltimore, Pittsburgh and Oakland are now doing – ignore the attacks and backstabbing ridicule by the ESPN’s and MLBTR’s that follow baseball as if each year is a rotisserie league where each participant gets to spent the same amount of money and all player are up to be drafted, and can’t tell Gross from Net. Build up a core of young, quality, trained, inexpensive players and compete.
They may still not win, but it’s the only chance they have.
@ gbs42;
I responded to your comment.
MLBTR blocked it.
Let me do it simply….
1. Gross amount does not begin to equal Net amount.
2. The NFL (and NBA) equally share most major revenues. The disparity in revenue in MLB between major market franchises and small market franchises is outrageous. The field is nowhere near level.
3. Because of #2, there is no buyers market for small market MLB franchises as well and for many mid-market franchises.
4. The Reds need to ignore the attacks from baseball media and do what Milwaukee, Tampa, Cleveland (now just blooming), Oakland, Baltimore and Pittsburgh have done and are doing – build a strong Baseball Ops system and produce a cache of quality young players.
GBS, you know, a hat tip for at least putting together a reasonable arguement. A true hat tip not sarcasm.
I would question the accuracy of the sources you cited, but at least you supported your thought process unlike most of type-first morons on here.
Here is a hole in your arguement: payroll, money for draft signings, international drafts, electricity, rent, and general business expenses all have to come from those revenues you cited. Operating an AZ training site, and 4 minor league staffs as well.
2nd gap: in no way shape or form are Reds getting $100M from tv revenue. Maybe, on a good day, 75% of that. You dont have enough population in the Cincy metro and surrounding areas to support that.
Merchandising, along with MLB.TV which you dont have listed is shared 1/30 with the league, as Reds get 1/30 of a Votto jersey sale or Aaron Judge jersey sale.
However parking, and concessions DO NOT cover player salaries. I suspect, if they fet these revenues is slightly below the ticket revenue. You go to a game, do you spend more in parking and food than tickets? Most do not.
If Cincy wanted to blow their wad and go all in….and I mean save up and blow all of it in one or 2 years….you max out at what?? $150M? Let me know when $150M competes with $250-300M annually from the Dodgers and other large markets. Castellini might be a pompous hind end, but what he said is not spewed garbage. This CBA did little to fix the main issue. And on this site, or from beat writers like Heyman, NightenTale, you will not hear such speak, for risk of losing insider status with agents.
The Padres are a small market team. They had multiple offers and no problem selling. The Marlins are a small market team. They had multiple offers and no problem selling. The Reds need to start by firing Castellini and then sell the team.
@outinleftfield;
The Padres are a small market team?
Seriously?
Do you know the cost of living in San Diego vs. Cincinnati? It’s how teams charge for tickets and how TV advertisers pay for each minute of broadcasting:
–
Cincinnati, OH
$50k income
To maintain your standard of living in San Diego, CA, you’ll need a household income of:
$76,305
The cost of living is 53% higher in San Diego, CA
–
Cincinnati, OH
Median 2-bedroom apartment rent
$968
Median home price (3BR, 2BA)
$267,608
San Diego, CA
Median 2-bedroom apartment rent
$2,393
Median home price (3BR, 2BA)
$798,964
@braingoingdownhill The Reds get an average of $75 million per season for their local TV deal that started in 2018 according to the Cincinnati Business Courier. Already showed the national numbers. $125 million per team per season including Fox, ESPN, TBS, Apple TV+, NBC/Peacock, MLB.tv, and MLB Extra Innings. Parking in Cincinnati is $20-30 in the 3 prepaid team lots. mlb.com/reds/ballpark/transportation/parking-direc… Tickets averaged $21.14 in 2021. The Rays spent $76 million last season. The Braves spent $148 million last season. Castellini and you are both spewing garbage.
@sammyboy 27th in 2021. 29th in 2020. oaaa.org/Portals/0/Public%20PDFs/OAAA%202021%20NIE… Its why they receive revenue sharing and a competitive balance pick from MLB every season. NOTHING you posted means squat in terms of market size. It’s completely irrelevant to the discussion.
outinleftfield;
People that call people names in conversations do it because they have no arguments.
You continue to cherry pick arguments.
As for the Reds spending – you continue to cherry pick.
The Reds payroll last year in MLB ranked 16th out of 30. hat was due by “trying to win” and playing out large salaries in one of the lowers]=t revenue markets of the 30 (no stats for revenue).
You want to talk “parking revenue”? List it for all 30 franchises.
#@outinleftfield;
I asked you nicely, please don’t call me names.
With every post you keep moving the goal posts.
To respond in kind to your argument: In 2003 one could buy a hamburger at McDonalds for 62 cents. In 2015 there were an average of 310 days of sunshine in northern Colorado.
The current owner of the Pirates acquired the franchise in bankruptcy court. Posters like you were making the same arguments about the previous owners of the Pirates.
Calling names? Citing the facts is moving the goal posts? I guess they are in your world. You are clutching at straws. Trying to make up stuff that is not relevant. Nutting didn’t buy the team in bankruptcy court. He was part of the ownership since 1996 and bought a controlling interest from McClatchy between 2005 and 2007.
What does the Reds ranking in payroll have to do with the fact that they are not paying out nearly 50% of their revenue in payroll so they are NOT doing all they can to win? The fact is, Castellini lied. Why are YOU trying in vain to defend him?
Now say goodbye @sammmyboy. Trolls should not be fed and I have given you far too many facts to waste any more of my time on you. Welcome to mute.
Do we know that the national broadcast rights are split evenly between the teams or is there a possibility that MLB itself takes a sizeable cut?
@Samuel They all think money grows on trees and that player payroll is the only cost that teams have. It’s laughable how some of these fans think. Can you imagine how much it costs just for the utilities to keep a park open on a daily basis? I can only guess and even my guess would probably be so far under the actual cost. Let’s talk about the amount of food and amenities that players receive from their respective clubs that’s not included in their pay. If I’m not mistaken they still get a stipend for food on the daily as well. I think it went down quite a bit but the fact that there is even still an allowance with all the money they make is insane.
Was it 310 actual days? If so,how do you average it?
All MLB owners took big losses during the pandemic with all the guaranteed baseball contracts. I wonder if insurance paid some of those deals?!
Castellini is running the Reds team like the Wilpons ran the Mets after
they stupidly “invested” with Bernie Madoff.
He appears to be using shared MLB revenues, including TV, and local TV revenues to stuff his and his partners’ pockets.
There must be a billionaire baseball fan in Cincy or close by
or a largely profitable corporation that can buy the Reds, keep them in Cincy and run a competitive ballclub.
The business model being used by the Castellini ownership group is obsolete & will never allow for Reds to provide meaningful competition to the rest of MLB. The treatment of MILB players should be criminal! Congress has given the owners a pass to pay less than minimum wage! Players earn $10 a day in spring training and average about $50 a day in season! All of this while the Castellini Owership group will be putting $800 million in their pockets, plus the salaries & benefits that are paid to their family & friends that are employed by the Reds!
Castellini should be fired for his comments. The fans want a competitive team not worried about profitability. Wins = $$…instead he wants to threaten the very people that make his career possible? This guy is trash!
Most fans don’t care that much. They just like going to games and watching baseball. Big bias here toward the fans that hang out on baseball blogs and write letters to the editor. But that’s a tiny minority. 95% of attendees don’t give a poop about wins and losses but still consider themselves fans.and more importantly send their dollars to the team.
Fans absolutely care about winning. That is why attendance is nearly always way up after a pennant winning season. YOU obviously don’t care about wins and losses.
Fans want to be entertained. Case in point: the ’62 Mets. The Rusty Staub era Expos. Most minor league games. Winning is helpful, sure, but if you love your team you love them in spite of themselves.
After going 0 for 15, Pham may end up on the IL with a hand injury?
Honestly I like the winker deal, low on gray deal and just hate the idea of giving away Miley for free. They just need to hit on whatever position players they get for Castillo and Mahle, cuz lodolo, Greene, Williamson is nice.
Hopefully their young studs bring in a new era within the next few years.
Good luck bringing in free agents. Where are they gonna go?
Okay did this guy just transport himself from the late 70’s to now to take this picture. Feels like I’m watching a mob flick haha
LOL
Phil Castellini looks like he wears cheap cologne
If Castellini is all about investing in the draft, international signings, and player development, then please show me where he’s investing in those things. I know a couple people who work for the Reds and they only talk about people leaving jobs in those parts of the organization, not investments in more people, better people, more analytics, etc. If Castellini wants to manage the Reds like the Rays, then show the fans how he’s doing that.
Of course they’re leaving.
The Reds did what the writers on this site and most posters want – they spent on FA’s “trying to win”.
Do you realize what a quality MLB franchise’s FO can do with just one of those FA’s salaries over the years they signed for?
Are the Reds a “quality” MLB franchise?
No….
And THAT’s the problem! Not the player payroll!!
reading this just makes me more proud knowing my team is owned by a multi billionare who ALWAYS spends and the team ALWAYS wins,
still, i did laugh reading they havent won a playoff series since 1995, what an utter and complete disaster of an organization, it probaly didnt help either that their old owner was a women who defended Hitler.
As bad of an owner/person as she was, they did win ws.
With all due respect, the Reds won a World Series in 1990 under Marge. And in fact she didn’t sell the team until 99, so she has all of our recent playoff wins.
You guys dumped Betts to get out of the price deal and will see devers and Bogarts walk
This aged well. Always spends huh, seems they’re more than $100 million apart on their offers to Bogaerts and Devers. I’m glad you got your laugh because now the rest of us can have ours.
they played this clip on McAfee today. i’m always going to be on the side of anyone but ownership but this rant was pretty hilarious
That is the most tone deaf pronouncement by a team official I have read in decades. Telling your fans that you are focused on how to “have it be more profitable” and to “make more money” is not great PR. Especially when fans know that between new national TV deals and sponsorships, each team has had a $125 million increase in revenue over the past 2 seasons and NO team has less than $250 million in total revenue. So crying poor at a $90 million payroll simply doesn’t cut it. PLEASE sell the Reds before you create irreparable harm Castellini.
Please cite a reliable news source on $125M per year per team. See key word “reliable”.
Do not post again until you do, or until you retact this ridiculously false statement.
So how outinleftfield is full of it and thedownvoter is full of himself. Got it.
@thedown Google MLB national TV deals. At least try to keep up with the sport you are commenting on. Its really not that hard. That is unless the only thing you do is comment on the articles here instead of actually READING them and clicking on the links that they refer you to.
I said cite. Show me the revenues per team.
…waiting.
Gross revenue is not Net revenue.
Gross Income is not Net Income. Look at your paycheck stub.
FYI, your $100M source you are going to post is classic. A Dodger blogger…..nice. From a team that has the highest local tv deal by a mile…
Yea, real persepctive you got there.
READ! Then comment. That way you don’t look so bad. .
LMFAO. If you think a baseball team calculates revenue like you do your net pay, then you are seriously deficient in knowledge.
Craig Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus is the source. Its too bad you don’t have the ability to read with even a modicum of comprehension.
According to Craig Goldstein of Baseball Prospectus on 2/1/2022, from just the Fox, TBS, and ESPN deals every team will earn at least $60 million. That is before before the Apple TV (“Friday Night Baseball”) and NBC/Peacock (Monday and Wednesday nights) deals that adds $115 million total or $3.8 million per team. It also doesn’t include the over 100 million MLB.tv and MLB Extra Innings subscriptions. That you had to ask shows how little you pay attention to the articles linked in the articles on this website.
Took 2 seconds and already found your numbers are wrong. Whybdont you actually research the apple deal again?
@ outinleftfield;
Fine, lets’ talk about that……
Who marketed that package to Apple? How much were their commissions? How much up front money was spent in those negotiations: Lawyers, negotiators, accounting and tax experts, etc.; travel costs; housing; meals; staffs doing research and technical people gathering information along with hardware and software costs to disseminate that information to said negotiators and their staffs…as well as other expenses? Taxes etc.
Gross income does not equal Net income. And none of the people noted above work for $30k a year.
Nope. You found nothing or YOU would have posted a link during your 2 seconds of Googling. Try again.
The Apple deal and the NBC/Peacock deal add up to $115 million. Try again.
@sammyboy Now you are clutching at straws. 2 multi-year deals at $115 million per year did not cost 1% in total admin and legal costs. Look at what the Braves spent on legal and on administration. Its public information.
outinleftfield;
You sure picked an appropriate handle!
1% in admin and legal costs isn’t a whole helluva lot.
Revenue in MLB has risen each season outside of 2020 and set a record $10.7 billion in 2019, according to Forbes.
THAT IS 357M per team if it was divided equally?!
Is that counting local TV revenues or no?!
It is not clear from the article.
forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2019/12/21/mlb-sees-re…
It’s the trueth teams can operate at a loss and still miss the playoffs. Players turning down 350/10 year deals because of greed. No small market team has won a World Series outside of KC in 30 years.
MLB will make $12 billion. Until player payroll and benefits grow to $6 billion, then the players are not earning what they are worth. They got just over $4 billion in 2021, so there is a long way to go.
What does this have to do with accurate tv contract numbers that still seems to elude us all.
No. It just eludes YOU. Any person with a 3rd grade education can add the numbers up or do simple multiplication and division. YOU can’t seem to do that.
You still haven’t provided accurate numbers that substantiate your original claim and just dismiss the very relevant point that gross =/= net. If you choose to just ignore the reality that costs exist, then sure, you might be on to something.
The Marlins won twice. (Yes, the Florida teams do count as small market considering how many fans, or lack thereof, they actually have.)
You should also consider the times small market teams have won the Pennant over that period, including three times for the Indians (as they were known back then), twice for the Rays, and another time for the Royals.
The small market teams from years ago were Pirates,Brewers,Reds,Guardians,Twins,Royals,Rays,and As.The Marlins were about the next closest in the mid market areas.
Of those eight the Rays and Royals have two pennants each and the Guardians three.That is a total of 7 in 58 league seasons which is 12% which divided by 8 gives a average of 1.5% chance to win a pennant for a particular small market team every year.
The chance to win a pennant is obviously much higher than winning the WS and I think that that may be reflected in the fact that the small market teams generally do not have the superstars needed to win that far deep into the playoffs.Otherwise,on average,three or four of these teams would have also won the WS.
Detroit is also a small to medium market team
whose previous owner over spent his local revenues to win.
That was because he was in his middle 80’s and he had plenty of money to do so by selling a lot of pizzas.
My problem isn’t so much that we have to remain trim and nimble. It is that when money is spent it is done with little care, like signing Moustakas when no corner (‘cept the corner of the bench) was open. And when make trades, we are merely dumping contract with no care for what we get in return. Miley, Barnhart, and Iglesias immediately come to mind but there are many more missed opportunities at the trade deadline.
dude sounds and looks just like a douchebag
There goes Phil saying the quiet part out loud. It makes you feel for Reds fans. Can’t really tell if Phil is just dumb or ignorant. Regardless, it would give me little/no faith in the club, and if they want the benefit of the doubt about operating expenses. Open your books and show everyone, what would you be afraid of?
Some moves I think were prudent but as noted, they have just dumped guys who would really help this team. If they kept around Gray & Iglesias, they may have the best staff in the division. So much so, they could compete for the WC at least, maybe even the division.
It’s most insulting that when a business struggles or fails, we’re told they need to innovate, draw eyes to their service/product, they need to be different. But when a business or owner whose “too big” for the system experiences loss, they pass it onto those under them and cut costs. Maybe making it more appealing to come to games or maybe even just getting a lottery ticket back for guys like Miley/Iglesias/etc. would earn some good will.
If you’re worth billions and you cannot make a success or even a minimal profit with your baseball club. That’s a you/organizational problem, not one your players, staff, or fans should pay for. In the world of streaming, fans have more options than these guys think. Whether it’s hubris or stupidity, it shouldn’t have a place on a team that you’re a fan of.
Derek Thompson of The Atlantic had a great article on why it’s fair to be a fair-weather fan. Stupid quotes by organization leaders like this are why fans should be allowed to be fickle and not pledge undying loyalty to a franchise.
Phil Castellini can take his comments and shove them you know where
Well, where are they gonna go?
They have to go anywhere. They can stay home and watch real MLB teams on TV.
I was just being sarcastic and making fun of Castellini’s comments lol
Oligarchs running the world in Russia and right here. The arrogance of these fs! “Well where are you gonna go? Let’s start there. I mean, sell the team to who? That’s the other thing – you want to have this debate? Let’s have the debate.” The team and every team is taken over by fans/cities/regions. Simple. That’s the who. If Tampa (and all oligarchs) can take free taxpayer cash — to the tune of 350 mil to build half a stadium that taxpayers will not even own when the whole team was bought for 200 mil — why not have taxpayers take that cash and purchase the teams? Let’s end socialism for a handful of rich guys who then take free taxpayer cash, cut teams up, give the finger to fans and threaten fans, and then bankroll super yachts and super nuts running for the WH. Enough! If the Packers can be run successfully with fan ownership certainly the Reds and every other team can be too. Debate now over. Round these socialist oligarchs up and ship ’em to Putin’s Russia!
TLDR?
Copy pasta?
Whatever success this team realizes this year – large or small – will be despite the fact that ownership and the FO manages to step in a hot, steaming pile of crap with every move they make. I thought the Rockies brain trust was inept. Castellini will not be underperformed.
Why is it that most fans scream about “socialists” and then have no problem with taxpayers giving guys like this HUNDREDS of millions in taxpayer cash and public (and private) land to build stadiums and then millions more to build roads, rail, sewer, etc. to support the owners of so-called private businesses? Do you not see the absurdity of this? If taxpayers are going to give such free cash to a handful of guys who then piss on taxpayers and threaten to move teams then taxpayers should actually be the owners of what they pay for, no? Check out the Packers and many, many soccer teams that are controlled by fans/cities/regions. Let’s end socialism for rich oligarchs! Keep taxpayer cash with teams and fans!
I think most people that scream about socialists also think that tax payer funded stadiums are BS…but you go ahead and show that strawman who’s boss!
As a Guardians fan, this feels incredibly familiar. Cleveland’s ownership group hasn’t really been this outspoken, but the comment about telling fans to “enjoy” Lindor definitely didn’t go over well and ownership (mostly speaking through the front office) has insisted that the team keeps losing money year after year, even though there’s no proof of that just like there’s no proof to Castellini’s claims.
Otherwise, the only difference is that Cleveland’s front office is better. I’m 24 and they’ve done this kind of retool more than a few times in my lifetime, and they usually seem to come out of it successfully. The Reds haven’t necessarily ever tanked either, but Cleveland has had more recent success. Either way, it’s frustrating for sure — so Reds fans, I feel your pain.
Yeah, the song and dance is never ending for some franchises. Look, if you’re operating at a loss year after year, and nothing you do seems to change that, maybe you’re in the wrong business. Either that or you need to open your books and prove to us you’re losing your shirt.
Sure……
Which is why the Nationals ownership is looking to sell the franchise.
Yeah that’s how I feel. No smart businessman would continue to operate a business that’s losing money (if profitability is the primary objective, which for most owners it is). The Dolans (and others like the Castellinis and the DeWitts in St. Louis if I recall) continue to cry poor and insist that they’re losing money, yet they still own their teams.
The Cardinals don’t usually have a massive payroll but for the most part they’re middle of the pack, while the Guardians and Reds are typically below average or near the bottom. So if they’re still “losing money” but also don’t care about spending to put a winning product on the field, then which is it? Both arguments can’t be true, so they’re either not actually losing money or they just don’t care about winning. Otherwise, any smart businessman would end that investment and sell the team.
They don’t claim to be “losing money.” They basically claim that they would lose money if they spent significantly more on payroll than they are.
Paul Dolan has gone on record saying that the team loses money almost every year.
mlb.com/news/paul-dolan-talks-cutting-indians-payr…
Why do they need to prove it to a bunch of people on a baseball site? Get over yourself.
Guardians have been the second best run organization in the majors last decade. Solid ml team, great system, low payroll. Year in year out.
I’d agree. I wonder a lot about what they could do with a bigger payroll. 2017 was a brief look at that, but they ended that experiment pretty quickly even though I think that core definitely could have won a title.
Smart organization, but they’ve mostly sucked the life out of the fanbase by consistently cutting since they were in the World Series. The recent extension of Ramirez to a below-market deal is a rarity, which is why the Guardians slowing eroding fanbase was so surprised. Hopefully the next owner will combine being smart while also being willing to spend. Cleveland is not a small market. Somehow MLB owners have convinced fans that there are two big markets and every one else is a small market.
The Guardians have been around since 2022.
At least the Guardians are actually consistent in what they spend. They don’t finally start spending more once their competitive window starts opening only to immediately and heavily slash payrolls immediately afterwards (even after accounting for the pandemic)..
They called up Nick Lodolo, the season is saved!! Hahaha
Anyone else notice how Phil Castellini looks like some old school mafia don in that pic??
He looks more suited to be “COO” of a concrete or waste management company.
Between the obvious lies and looking like stole wealth Joey Buttafucco, this guy is pretty unlikeable.
I’m wondering if he did the interview on a remote from Bada Bing!
I feel bad for Red fans that are stuck with this clown of an owner.
Phil needs to learn how real baseball economics work Reds fan doesn’t want the team to move we want them to sell to a owner that has deeper pockets the what the Castalinis have because it is clear they are not capable of having the money to compete #Selltheteam
How many owners do you think come in and lose money to compete long term?
Just remember when’s Castillini left the st Louis the following year they won the WS
What is this now?
My two cents coming from a Pirates fan.I think that the Reds increased spending a couple of years ago gave Reds fans hope that they would crawl out from the bottom and compete again.That they did briefly.But it seems that they quickly and abruptly changed that position,thus signaling a change of ownership heart in spending.Maybe they dipped their toe in the water and did not like the feel.
Inconsistency is not a good thing though.
I think that very large size contracts like Votto’s can hold down a small market team even if they are for a future HOF er like he is.But he is only one player.
At least with the Pirates and Ben Cherington they seem to have plotted a course and are keeping to it.Some Pirate fans may not like it but it is a plan,and probably a reasonable one.
I always get all kick out of the comments from the fans of the large market teams like the Red Sox.God bless them.
Castellini was stupid to say these comments,and subsequently eventually apologized.Did someone tell him to do so?
MLB likes to think that they are a competitive sport but in reality they are not.And the massive amounts of money in the game will not allow it to be with these ownership groups in charge.
“They changed that position”, that’s why Dick Williams GM quit.
I’m going to guess that they increased spending, didn’t see the ROI they expected + Covid. I agree that being as inconsistent as they are is `counter productive though.
I feel for the Reds, to be honest. Small market team, one of if not the “poorest” owners in baseball.
I wouldn’t be shocked if Hunter Greene and, let’s say Nick Lodolo put up as good or better numbers as Sonny Gray and Wade Miley…for a fraction of the cost. I think the team is trying to thread the needle, and there’s certainly reason to bash them for the little to no return theyve gotten for guys like Chapman and R. Iglesias and Miley, but they may be doing as much as their resources allow.
It seems to me though that they wanted to get rid of the salaries rather than to get something equal in young players in return.They seem to have made those changes fairly quickly as if the ultimatum was just to cut costs.Small market teams have limited resources and good players are a resource.
“Small market teams have limited resources”
No such thing, only lying scammer billionaires who absolutely have the resources, but winning gets in the way of them making the maximum possible money for themselves. MLB has to vett all 30 owners as soon as possible, because many own teams and have no desire to win games – thats bad for the product.
I have decided to do what Phil recommended I do and find a new team.
Thanks for the memories Phil, good luck in filling GABP now that you’ve alienated your fan base.
“I am going to take your money and actively make the team worse. I hate baseball, I am here to make money for myself only.” – all these scammer MLB team owners like Fisher, Nutting and the Reds owner.
Moving my loyalties to the Seattle Mariners. Go Winker, Suarez & Trammel.
*CANTON CATERPILLARS
*Canton Wantons… and the Brewers stay in Wisconsin but become the Milwaukee Talkies (sponsored by Motorola)
This is what I come to MLBTR for, thanks for the good content.
LOL
Did the Reds really believe sending out their COO Castellini was going to help?
So this clown is literally copying the John Fisher way of owning a team? Be as cheap as possible, then threaten the fans when they call you out for being penny pinching scum?
“Sell the team? To who?” Oh I dunno, any one of the HUNDREDS of billionaires out there like Steve Cohen?? Jeez these owners are all the worst people in the country and the worst people to own a pro sports team – these old money cheapskate billionaires only know how to scam people, and MLB has so much press and media they can’t openly make their teams worse and expect no criticism.
MLB should boot all 30 team owners and make them all require fan votes to take over teams. Pull the bandaid off, these talentless scamming billionaires have ripped us all of long enough.
Just cause someone buys the ye doesn’t mean they will spend more money. Cincinnati was 17th in payroll going back to 2017 and still only had 1 playoff run to show for it. Not everyone is going to be like the Padres who are spending but not getting to the playoffs. Phillies Angels Mets are proof of this
The MLB’s Commissioner gets his power through the MLB owners. They can put pressure on a team, 29 to 1 type of scenario. It happened with the Reds with Marge, and a few years back with LA.
I made a comment above proving that Castellini isn’t just some greedy guy that’s tanking the team for money. This is happening because he is very literally the poorest owner in baseball and has less money than many athletes do. I also believe he should sell the team. Not because he is greedy but because he is too poor to be a good MLB owner. His comments about “sell the team to who” and “where will the team go” are total nonsense. He doesn’t realize that there is some Reds fan out there who would quadruple the money he spent on the team to buy it from him and spend more money and make better baseball decisions. I’m normally suspect of new owners making good decisions but the Reds have made so many bad ones recently that it seems likely a new owner would make better decisions and have more money to spend than the poorest owner in baseball. Castellini paid $270 million for the team and he is worth $400 million now. It would be better for the Reds baseball team and the Reds fans if he sold. I’m not some anti-owner guy. I’m a pro-fan guy. No reason for this guy to keep this team anymore. Not if the good of baseball and it’s fans are what’s most important.
Steve-You have a real nice post with one caveat. I am not sure that the term”poor” fits Mr Castellini.( I realize that you use it comparatively)And you are right,the team could have been run better,but for the good of the Reds he needs to sell.And I say it with all due respect to him.
And it is a shame that one can have $400M and be the least wealthy of all of the owners.
And that tells you all you need to know about MLB and how much wealth controls it.
To paraphrase: Better to be silent and be thought a bad front office than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
This is absurd. Remember my paragraph trashing bad organizations on the Jon Gray post the other day? Put the Reds in a similar category with the Rockies.
Compare this rebuild to the 2015 one, they are, admittedly in better shape. More potential superstar prospects than last time. That said, once again, they aren’t getting any value for any of the guys that they’re dumping. They could have gotten something for Wade Miley, Rasiel Iglesias, possibly Archie. Just those three dumps alone could have meant about 4 more prospects.
Analyzing the main trades of the 2015
– The Leake trade wasn’t that bad, to be honest. He wasn’t going to re-sign and proved to be a player who they were smart not to re-sign. They got 6.4 WAR out of Duvall and then shipped him to Atlanta and got Lucas Sims out of the deal, who has been a good reliever for them. They also got Wisler who they traded for Diomar Lopez, who’s still in the system and at just 25, could be a middle relief guy if necessary.
– The Cueto trade was bad, although he likely would have left as a free agent as well, and Finnegan was a good pitcher before he got hurt. I’d chalk that up to bad luck more than anything.. They likely severed the last connection to the trade with Riley hitting DFA limbo today. Meanwhile, Cueto went on to win a ring in KC.
– The Frazier trade was a disaster. The saddest part is, they gave up the biggest piece in the deal, and the Dodgers got the best prospect in Frankie Montas (who was traded for Hill, who became a valuable member of the Dodgers for a few years).
AND THEN WE HAVE THE CHAPMAN DEAL
All they had to do was wait a little bit for the controversy surrounding Chapman to subside. He had a full year left of control! They were impatient though, and gave him to the Yankees for one of the most pathetic prospect packages ever traded for a superstar. Then the Yankees traded him a few months later and got Gleyber Torres!
Stop this “We’re a small market team” nonsense. Minor’s salary is VERY CLOSE to Miley’s and Castellanos came off of the books. Meanwhile, Miley was coming off of a great year, and Minor hasn’t been good since 2019 and is getting older, which makes a comeback less likely. Also, there were quite a few outfielders way better than Pham who made less in free agency. Like they could have gotten Kevin Pillar for a third of that, and would have gotten equal to better production. None of their moves have made any sense and I feel bad for the fans in Cincy, as it’s a great baseball town and deserves better.
The one move they made recently that actually turned out well was letting Zach Cozart walk into FA. They could have gotten something for him by trading him, but getting nothing at all was far better than if they’d extended him. The FO just kinda stumbled into that one, but even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.
Threat? He’s being realistic.
Phil C has $43m on the 2023 books? I’d hate to follow his stock market advice. ‘Loser’
No mention of Bauer in that recent history? Kind of weak.
I wonder if “aligning our payroll to our resources” includes front office personnel and the owners son?
Wow, this is a circus. It’s like the wife who spends too much on the credit card and then looks back and blames her husband and kids for the family being broke.
Here is the top portion of the 2019 payroll (went back pre-pandemic for proper reference). This was the year of the famous trade with the Dodgers where the Reds generously helped LA get out of the horrible contracts of Matt Kemp, Alex Wood, and Yasiel Puig (see below)…LA took on Homer Bailey, but then also released him immediately…
Joey Votto, $25,000,000
Matt Kemp, $14,750,000
Tanner Roark, $10,000,000
Scooter Gennett, $9,775,000
Yasiel Puig, $9,700,000
Alex Wood, $9,650,000
Sonny Gray, $7,500,000
Did they find the masked man that forced the Reds into that horrific swap?
Now this year, getting rid of Winker and then sign Tommy Pham for $6M a year? Sign a 34 year old infielder in Solano for $4.5M and he’s already missing all of April? I could go on and on…there are plenty more…
I’m not a fan of the Reds, a baseball fan chiming in, but I appreciate their history within the game and I would be confused (and pissed) at where this ownership group (and jumbled front office) has been taking this team.
A tale of a incomprehensible front office.
Cutting payroll after 2020 was completely expected, and the Reds were hardly the only team to do so.
The issue fans have is why they would need to cut payroll even further after 2021 when they had a pretty competitive team in place. It shouldn’t be that hard to cut into your usual profits for the next year or two in an attempt to win while the window is open.
How could their finances be this bad after how much they were able to spend in the 2019-20 offseason?! It also raises heavy suspicions that they were irresponsibly spending more money than they should have over that one offseason and wouldn’t have been able to maintain even close to that level of spending even if the pandemic never happened.
Nice to see Rick “The Model” Martel getting a COO position in the bigs.
This is why I am done with MLB. It isn’t just the Reds, Pirates, Orioles, Athletics, Marlins, Diamondback or Ray’s it is the whole entitled aura of all the owners along with thencheap owners. NOBODY owns a jersey with owner’s name on it. The CBA and new rule changes will further change this sport into an entertainment group. I gave up the WWE a long time ago for a reason and now MLB has gotten beyond jumping a shark imo. Silliness that I don’t have the extra money to fund nor do I need the drama of never having a winning franchise(s) in my state or neighboring states. This is suppose to be World Class Athletes playing a SPORT in a wolrd class facilities. I dont know what they think the product is on field and MLB experience is within these behemoths of stadiums but these days but id say out of touch is a phrase that could sum it up. I have turned off my subscription here and have no intention of visiting my local dilapidated MLB stadium with a roster full of AAAA players in 2022.
Last one out needs to turn the lights off
Yeahhh people should really study what socialism is before tossing it around. Capitalism IS a kind of socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the vast majority. It’s a system that reinforces perpetual class warfare, unable to reconcile it’s split personality. MLB is a monopoly that is somehow legal, and lacking any salary cap or floor it panders to large market teams and grows more top-heavy every year.
As a life-long Reds fan I’ll just say, when Votto leaves so will I. He’s now the last and only reason I’m still tuning in. MLB and owners have forsaken smaller markets, and dozens upon dozens of small towns which treasured their minor league teams, and it’s all pointing to a sport that refuses to adapt and is dying.
Dude looks like he belongs in WWE
Reads like the Reds Front Office and Ownership Group needs to be “broomed out”.
Some Ohio wealthy business tycoon(s) should take over the iconic Reds franchise.
Front Office, team , farm system could use a complete over haul.
Even with a lower payroll, they can still win like the Rays and other clubs on the lower payroll tiers.