The Pirates have made an extension offer to young third baseman Ke’Bryan Hayes, to no avail. This is not the first time that the Pirates have explored an extension with Hayes, but this time, they are “making a serious effort,” per Jon Heyman of the MLB Network (via Twitter).
MLBTR’s Steve Adams took a look at the potential of a Hayes extension back in August. There aren’t a lot of great recent comps for a Hayes extension. That said, the Pirates should have what it takes financially to make Hayes the first cornerstone of this current iteration of Pirates baseball. They have zero guaranteed contracts on the books for next season and beyond.
To this point, however, the Pirates have not shown signs of turning the corner into a competitive structure. An extension for Hayes would represent that sort of step. As of now, Hayes will not be arbitration eligible until after the 2023 season, and he won’t head to free agency until after 2026.
I would think it would be in the Bucs best interest to extend Bryan Reynolds lst.
Reynolds may not want to consider an extension unless it is for crazy money. He will be heading into his age 32:season when he hits FaA for the first and probably his only chance at big money because of his age. I can see him just not really wanting to lose that FA opportunity..
I don’t know about that. The age of 32 isn’t all that easy to get crazy money.
Marte just got 4/78 from the Mets at 32 I would imagine Reynolds could get 5-100 in free agency might even get a 200 million contract
Ketel extension is what I would offer Hayes
He will be 30 about to turn 31 when he becomes a free agent but I get the point. No reason for him to want one of those team friendly 2 extra year deals. Pay the man until his 36 37.
Are teams necessarily going to be willing to pay him well past his prime though?
He would have to agree. Ever think maybe he doesn’t want to sign an extension?
If I were hayes, I’d get as much money as I can but no free agent years. Get the hell out of Pirates organization as soon as possible.
Hitting- Nothing like taking the money and running.That is the American way to a lot of people.
Hayes has never proven himself to be more than a 280 hitter with maybe 15 HR potential.He is a fine fielder.
His hitting last year was no better than that.
Why would the Pirates guarantee him a fair amount of money before he has proven himself?
Why would they give him a guarantee if they do not get free agent years in return?
I do not think that BC is stupid enough to do what you said.,
@Mendoza. Taking the money and running isn’t simply the American way. It’s exactly how the owners behave too. The only difference is they take the production and run. Hays wants to get as much money as he can and the owners want to pay as little as they can. If that’s what Hays is doing then he is just playing the game by the rules established.
The rules were pre established before baseball.That statement applies to all different types of people not just owners and players.
Sometimes these players make the wrong decisions.
For instance,most posters on here denigrate the Braves for paying Acuna “peanuts” in his contract.
I have two questions.
Did he sign it with a gun to his head?
What would have happened if he did not and his injury last year was career threatening.
Hayes has not proven himself to be any more than an average hitter at the ML level.
What happens if he never gets better?
It really depends on how much they are offering and whether he thinks that the chances are very good that he can clearly do better,Let’s face it,for good players who reach free agency the question is not whether or not their kids will be set for life but will their grandkids will be set for life.
Of course it was established before baseball. I didn’t disagree with you saying it was the “American way”. I simply narrowed in on the owners the way you did with Hays. While neither side created the system they don’t have to embrace it either. They have just decided too.
Your next statements seem completely unrelated to what we are discussing here. Yes, sometimes players make the “wrong” decision concerning contract opportunities. I think so many of us call it wrong because we make the narrow minded decision that the only thing all players want is money and so they should have waited to make more. Therefore, if they could have made more they than made the “wrong” decision. Talk about projection.
Anyway, I digress. There is no contradiction in saying that both players and owners perform this time honored American practice of making money. There is no good reason to call out one above the other.
I acknowledge that I should have said then instead of “than” at the end of my middle paragraph. I made a lot of grammatical errors in my rush to post and simply didn’t get all of them at the end of my allotted time limit.
Who would have thought there are so many English professors on a baseball site. =))
@SalaryCapMyth
Idk man. Have you / do you own a business? I do, employing a decent number of people, and as an owner, I like the fact that I can offer GOOD employees health, dental, vision, retirement plan (one that requires an equal percentage of annual salary/income as we in the Ownership and Executive positions receive) and I actually enjoy getting to offer employees more money because it means they’ve added value to the company. What I can’t stand, is when an employee comes in half demanding/half pleading for more money or worse, that they attempt to negotiate away a portion of their benefits for cash, citing only the raised scale market conditions and what have you. Mind you, we offer a 2.5% annual bump across the board to cover (normal) annual inflation.
While I’m not running an MLB Team, MLB Owners are in the business of people, and framing them as being cold and nearly inhumane to those they employ I think says more about you than it ever could about them. Because they ARE billionaires, they’ve seen the way money can change the lives of people and if you hustle and do your best to further establish the company (team) name, and better yourself, they likely take joy in seeing the elation of a huge deal bestowed on such a player. No way these guys are all begrudgingly signing checks for generational wealth to people they feel aren’t worth it. There’s zero chance.
Salary-Actually I was not calling out Hayes.Please reread.
If I was calling out anybody,it was the poster “hitting null”. He was using Hayes as an example.
I think that when I digressed it was more in answer to other posters comments on how much Hayes should make now,and that the Pirates were “finally serious” about negotiating with him.The amounts of money proposed by some of the same posters in my opinion is ludicrous at this point.My point was that if Hayes was offered life changing money like Cutch and Marte were( and he is not the player that either were),he would be remiss if he did not at least seriously consider it.
You are right,I did not elucidate that point in any clear manner.
“…they likely take joy in seeing the elation of a huge deal bestowed on such a player.”
Why did the owners fight to keep salaries low during the recent CBA negotiations?
@szielinski
I think realistically, the owners are aware they will not be keeping salaries ‘low.’ They are highly successful people who recognize that they are choosing to pay elite level athletes and as such will need to be paying them as if they are among the top 780-1200 people in the world who do their respective jobs,.
The owners more appropriately put, negotiated to keep salaries at such level that these side hustles of their’s would remain independently sustainable, viable, and better yet, profit turning so that when they are ready to make a push for a World Series , or to make some big additions or lock some guys up to maintain a Championship window, they the business will have some powder in the keg ready to throw at that team or window.
These are the passions of most of these owners (even among ownership groups), not their daily money maker. To think they’re being cut throat every day of their lives in this medium defies logic.
Also, not every guy you employ proves himself worthy of the guy whom you DO feel that sense of joy in giving the big extension. So naturally you’re going to protect capital to better preserve it for those whom make the team, company, and product stand out.
@hittingnull No reason for the Pirates to provide him financial security unless it’s a chunk less than his projected arbitration or they get a couple team options.
I seen a interview with him and he didn’t seem confident his wrist is back to normal. So I would definitely be open to an extension if I was him.
It’s not a great reflection that a franchise has to clarify a “serious” effort is being made. Is there another way?
30 parks, are the Bucs “clarifying” or is this writer?
Who do you suppose the writer spoke to on this matter? It is Heyman, so possibly no one, but the point stands. “Serious” suggests the Pirates are not taken all that seriously around MLB.
‘No, I’m serious this time. I mean it. Watch me. Here I go. I’m serious. This is it! Trust me. No, no, I’m seriously going to do it this time. Give me a count. 10-9-8, here we go, baby! 7-6-5, yes, sir, today’s the day. 4-3-2 …” and so on.
Great ballpark. Great city. Lousy owner.
I don’t know who said the word “serious” but I still agree with Parks sentiment. I looked at the title and wondered what “serious” specifically means for the Pirates. If I read that about the Dodgers, Yankees, Mets and so on “serious” wouldnt need so much interpretation.
The Pirates are serious about contending in 2024 to 2 30.
Might wanna wait and see how he does this season before giving him 8-9 figures.
True, but then you risk the price only going up….like Reynolds.
Bucs have all leverage w Reynolds he doesn’t hit FA until past his prime.
Would you say they have a plethora of leverage?
9 figures lol will have to see it before I believe Bob would ever authorize 9 figures.
This “serious offer” is buying out his arbitration with a 12 and 15 million team option. Maybe a 15 and 18. Trying to take advantage of Hayes having doubts about his wrist.
Can we please see if Hayes can be productive and healthy for a season or two before backing up the Brinks truck to his doorstep?
Bucsfan- That would make too much sense.
I’ll believe Nutting spends a dime the moment he actually does so.
Halos-Nutting spends money,but in a businesslike manner.
No Arte Moreno here.
Hayes has not proven himself other than fielding.
Even with Reynolds,I will believe that he is Mickey Mantle if he has another year like his first and third.Could this year be like his second?
The Pirates method was to sign young proven players like Cutch and Marte to guarantee them lots of money but to get something in return.It worked with them.It did not work with Gregory Polanco nor Jose Tabata.
The 50% return rate is probably better than that of free agent signings for way more money.
If the price goes way up for either of these players because they did not sign now then they are probably too expensive for a small market team anyway.
He’s spent tens of millions less than he’s received in revenue sharing year after year.
His last notable spending was half a decade ago.
Dude could rock $200 million payrolls off the money he’s pocketed from other owners.
They get revenue sharing money because of the lopsided deal that MLB has with the big market owners of teams from LA,NY,Chicago,and Boston.Those cities are where most of the people are,and where 17 of the last 29 WS winners have come from.
I personally believe that there should be a substantial return for poached players,and that small and lower mid market teams should have a healthier share of draft choices so that if they do have a fine drafting and developing organization they will be much more able to compete with the wealthy teams.
I find it interesting that you must know about Nutting’s economic situation regarding the Pirates based on your strong belief that he could afford $200M payrolls.
I looked at pre pandemic revenue sharing vs reported payrolls. Nutting pocketed a about $50 million per year for several years in a row.
He couldn’t do it long, but he’s billed fellow owners and the players out of a good $200 million that was supposed to go to payroll.
Hence the lawsuit.
Hopefully he spends now. Pittsburgh is a great sports city. They deserve a good team.
He will spend when he has a decent team.
Otherwise,he would be throwing it away.
They went from mediocre to terrible almost overnight.
It happened after the all star break in 2019.
Many of these posters here think that spending big money on free agents is wise.
The best teams develop their own talent and augment the roster with key free agents.
Why should Nutting spend an extra $50M a year on free agents now?To go from fifth place to third?
Every city deserves to have a good team.Every city has good sports fans.But even the large city teams go into troughs where they do not win as much as they normally do.The problem with the small market teams is that the crests only last for a relatively short while,and that is only if they have their act in gear otherwise.The lack of good drafting and teaching hurt the Pirates and they had to pay the piper after they realized it.This constant criticism of Nutting will be justified if and when they develop a good team and do not augment in the proper manner.Maybe that is the reason that he is “saving his pennies” in hopes that that day will soon come.
One thing that you may not realize but the Yinzers in Pittsburgh should is that the last two ownership teams in Pittsburgh were not viable.Nutting has brought much more of a business like atmosphere and that alone may have saved this team from moving elsewhere.And for that Pirate fans should be eternally grateful
You are a Nutting family member or employee paid to boost Nutting’s reputation online?
Nutting has never spent and largely pocketed the large annual ticket increases from the lack playoff run the Pirates had several years ago.
I am actually Bob Nutting.
I have so much money that I can waste my time spending it by occasionally corresponding with knuckleheads like you.
Youre on drugs. You have to be.
We will see how the grievances play out. The fact that Manfred tried to get them dropped and the owners refusing to limit revenue sharing tells me the owners who are giving Nutting their money don’t have a problem with whatever he is doing with it. You are way way off with your 200 million number. You never seen his revenue.
The Nuttings are billionaires. They could pay $200m to Hayes. But I would advise Cherrington to hold on to Nutting’s money.
To say BN’s cheapness is the reason the Pirates have been bad of late does a disservice to the atrocious job former GM NH did in developing players. Not too mention pulling the trigger on a trade for Archer that set the franchise back for years.
In the middle of the last decade, the Pirates won 98 games and had the top ranked farm system. NH orchestrated this enviable position into a losing team with a well below average farm system by failing to finish the development of players like Glasnow and Meadows.
So in essence you’re making a lazy argument.
Scott- How atrocious was NH if he could develop a small market team with the second best record record in baseball over a three year period?
The problem with the Pirates was that they relied on their laurels and quit developing the good young players like Walker,Alvarez,Polanco,Cutch,and Marte.
The team would have been bad even with Glasgow and Meadows.
The problem with your atrocious statement is that it is just not correct.
It sounds like a very negative Yinzer statement to me.
He has spent money in the past. Extended Marte, Polanco, Cutch among others…….
True. Hopefully he does again.
You forgot Tabata.
you go, bucs! there seems to be efforts by revenue share receiving teams to spend a little more money this offseason.
Why does the Bucs making a “serious effort” make me think of the Omegas being put on “double secret probation”? And then Cherington turns to look at them, and Hayes has pencils dangling from his nostrils.
So the previous time they weren’t serious?
Correct. They were facetious contract offers.
Extend Hayes to placate the fans, then ship Reynolds to Padres for a prospect haul. Just a hunch.
So tempting not to trade Reynolds while preller is desperate.
@ElGuapo
What would ya want for him?
RP M. Gore
SS Abrams
C Alfaro
P Lizarraga
That checks out as even value at BBall Trade Values…
ElGaupo- I would rephrase your statement to read “while Preller is still in San Diego”.
I doubt that he lasts past this year with last year’s second half bust and if they do not have a fine year with an established manager.
@Mendoza Line 215 Just little over a year ago they not only extended his contract but promoted him to president. They obviously like his awful player signings and over paying trades.
Dream- Except as you know 80% of the posters on this site said that the Hosmer deal was ridiculous when it was signed.
Other than you,nobody has a GM moniker.
I do not doubt that you are correct about Preller’s status,but my guess is the collapse last year may have changed a few important people’s minds since the deal was made with him.Somebody seems to be after him to cut the losses.And people in power can change their minds very quickly if they see too many losing propositions.
@Mendoza Line 215 Owner is the problem. The front office just doesn’t give out hundreds of millions without the owner being involved. Even if ownership has a change of opinion, it’s not fun to eat millions of dollars to pay the guy to sit at home. Even less fun to admit you were wrong with not only not letting him go but promoting him.
I do not know the owner so I I’ll take your word for it.
But when Jethro told Granpa Jones on Hee Haw every week that “it hurts when I do that” and he was smacking his head with his fist.Granpa simply said “then don’t do that”.
And the money that they would waste on Preller is minuscule compared to what is paid on players.
And yes,it could very well mean that the owner did a dumb thing in extending him,and those type of personalities generally would not want to admit that.
My point is that even the dumbest of owners eventually figure it out.
On the other hand,someone finally figured out that an experienced and proven manager would be much conducive to winning.Was that AJ,or someone else?As luck would have it,Mr Melvin suddenly became available.So I do not doubt that if the Padres win at least 90 games this year that AJ will indeed keep his job.
We shall see.
I don’t know the owner either. I just know owners don’t say here’s 200 million do what you please with it. Is AJ convincing ownership to make these moves or does ownership see they have the only team in town so lets make a splash? I am not saying you are wrong. I don’t know. Just saying his bad contracts and questionable trades were known and they still promoted him. If your theory os right he might be gone this year because I see them fighting for that last wild card at best.
I think that they had a good year in 2020,the first in many many years,and that may have spurred ownership to do what they did in extending him.
He seemed to me to be a cat with nine lives after his first barrage did not work out after he was newly hired.He then got the minor leagues in good shape then began trading those fruits.These owners may very trust him to make the best baseball decisions,But results are results and his string may be running out soon.
Its a hard price to pay and so far nobody has come close.
He wants out the second he can. Who wants to play for the Pirates?
7 year old me did.
Michael-And we still would if our playing abilities were any good.
Hell, a 25 year old me does lol screw the normal 9-5
I don’t think it as easy as you might think though.Even the young guys get injured,especially if you are a pitcher.Someone always wants your job.Some organizations are better than others at developing you as a player.
I loved all of the jobs in my career and got out when I somewhat stopped doing that.
But I would have played baseball for nothing.
Every baseball player wants to play for the Pirates as long as they pay them the most money. Same as any other team.
Aj Burnett did. He turned down a mutual option with the Phillies to play with the Pirates for about half of what the Phillies were paying him.
Hayes would be a fool to stay in Pittsburgh any longer than he has to. Not with this owner.
If they give him 150 million he will love being in Pittsburgh.
The financial empire known as the Yankees are making a serious effort to sign the great Error in Judgement to a cheap extension while the cheap Pirates are trying to extend one of their sort of decent young players. Nothing to see here folks.
If the Judge extension is cheap well there won’t be any extension.
Pirates will offer Hayes a 10 year $5 million dollar contract
With half of it deferred.
Pirates have “zero guaranteed contracts after this season”? That’s extraordinary.. Question for Pirate’s fans: Do you think ownership is looking to sell with a stripped down salary structure?
Mike-That is a very good question.
I should hope not.
But Nutting is enough of a businessman in that if he sees baseball heading downward,and the team value not increasing,I think that he would certainly consider it.
I really do think that he wants to win,but I am not sure that he loves the game and City enough to be in it for the long haul if it does not bring his money.
And that can probably be said for almost all of the owners.
Thanks for the reply…and you are probably right about “almost all of the owners”.
MIke-Your question made me think,which may or may not be a good thing for me to do.
Many people do not realize that these owners are first and foremost businessmen,many of whom had to work very hard to get where they are.
Owning a baseball team for many could also be like having a large wonderful home,a fleet of sports cars,or a great looking wife.It makes them proud,and they want to see it win.
Look at Cohen and the Mets.It is his new toy,and he has so much money that he can do what he wants with it.
I would hope that Nutting will follow through with this rebuild and if BC did his job Nutting will sign some free agents to bring the Pirates back to where they were in 2013,2014,and 2015.
But your question does make me wonder.
Why would Nutting sell an asset that kicks off a ton of free annual cash flow, has little downside profit risk, subsidizes his less profitable/unprofitable business ventures, and is in a league that just signed a 5-year labor agreement favorable to owners & the status quo?
Nutting has been clear he has absolutely no intention of ever selling and plans on passing the team down to his daughters. He’s only even entertained an offer once, and I think it was just to be polite. The same group headlined by Mario Lemieux who owned the Pens until recently tried to buy the Pirates. Nutting met with them. A number was slid across the table. Nutting immediately politely declined and ended the meeting. That was that. Since that time, the value of the team has increased nearly 400%.
Payroll and owners intentions are not related. Pirates will only give out team friendly contracts. Team friendly contracts only add to the value of a franchise. There’s no contracts because anyone of value nearing free agency was traded. And Hayes and Reynolds are too old and too smart to sign the way team friendly extensions the Pirates are looking to do.
Methinks that both Reynolds and Hayes have long term reservations about playing in Pittsburgh,for whatever reason or reasons.
It may be,and probably is the money,but it could be that they want to play in a different area of the country or with a larger market team who is going to be good every year.
I do fault Nutting for not paying Reynolds more money this year.An extra $400,000 should not have a deleterious effect on anything when you want that player to be the face of the franchise and want to sign him long term.
This exact thing was one of the things that soured Cole on the Pirates.Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
You’re half right. Yes, Cole was insulted by the Pirates only giving him an extra $10,000 raise after having a great season in 2014. However, you’re wrong in thinking this soured Cole on Pittsburgh. Cole always saw himself playing on the biggest stage. That’s why even Houston wasn’t big enough for him and his ego.
Cole and his big ego was soured on the Pirates.NH knew that there was no chance that he would sign with the Pirates.
But your statement is correct in that it did not matter as the number one pick in the draft in 2011 wanted the big stage all along.I cannot blame him as he was always a very good pitcher but who was always cocky.
Anyone who puts a Scott Boras hat on immediately after he had been on a team that had just lost the World Series has a pretty large ego.
The Nutting consider the Pirates the home town team. The family won’t sell the team unless someone overpays for the team.
Bucs are gonna offer Hayes and Reynolds like 7 years/$30M each and they could easily get $35M each over standard arbitration years and then hit free agency and each get at least 3 years/$50-60M, so I don’t see what’s realistically gonna happen with any kind of extension efforts.
It’s unpleasant to say the Pirates are like an extended farm system for better clubs, but the only way they can realistically compete is to offer their core players market value to stay and then sign the occasional big ticket free agent…. exactly the kind of things they don’t do.
Hayes and Reynolds should both cost at least 8 years/$120M to lock up, realistically- and this is largely just as a basic concept that the Pirates can’t ask their players to play for pennies on the dollar compared to the rest of the league if they want them to stick around.
No. Offers will be full arbitration with 2 team options. Easy no for Reynolds. Little more interesting for Hayes. Who wants to be a free agent at 32 33 when they can be at 30?
Outside of some Public Relations gains (in an organization that could use it), I can’t see a reason for going ga-ga over Hayes. Decent player but hasn’t shown anything beyond (actually slightly less than ) “meh:. Bad teams have to glorify mediocrity, and really that’s all Hayes has shown. But I suppose it will show a “commitment”.
Bob- And hence the reason for the probably meh offers before now.
He has to play for a few years and at a higher level to be compared to Mike Schmidt or Brooks Robinson.
He really is a fine fielder.
But his hitting,as you say,has been meh.
It boggles my mind that many of these posters do not understand that.
Or does it just give them a reason to knock Nutting and or the Pirates?
a 1.5fWAR in in 96 games isn’t that bad. he isn’t a power hitting corner IF you may like to see but Meh isn’t a good description
his only real question is his health.
He showed a lot until he hurt his wrist. Doesn’t even look like the same player. My guess the Pirates think he just needs time and ot could be a bargain.
True, but also keeping in mind they talked about extending before, it isn’t new thing but probably in peoples heads to take the money now just in case.
Why is this so hard to understand for some people? Pirates are attempting to invest in a product that is potentially undervalued currently. Realizing that Hayes lack of power last year could disappear this year if his injured wrist is completely healed. And this is their last real opportunity to have a 5+ WAR player for many years be locked up at a price they can afford to pay?
Hayes hits free agency at age 30 Reynolds it’s free agency at age 31. Pirates have much more leverage than the national media is letting on.
Pittsburgh media doesn’t understand baseball arbitration/contracts so you won’t be getting good information out of them either.
Pirates can’t lose unless a freak injury happens. Either get a team friendly extension or trade them for prospects.
At this point they cannot trade them for prospects.
You have to take a stand at a certain point.
Tomorrow never comes.
That is probably the biggest reason why they wanted to sign these guys so that they could show their fans that this rebuild will not last forever.
Prospects are just that.Prospects.
Not traded now but good chance they will be in a few years. Most players won’t sign team friendly extensions. Pirates won’t allow players to leave without reloading their farm system if they don’t have to. Tomorrow always comes for Cleveland and Tampa.
But eventually the execs and drafting and development staffs of the Cleveland’s and Rays are poached by the wealthy teams.
So their lifelines will dry up at a certain point and they will have to start again.
I think that to seriously contend for a WS you have to have at least two or three outstanding players,almost HOF types.I think that they give the other players confidence that the team has a chance to win.
With the salaries now for that type of player the Cleveland’s and the Rays of the league have to get really lucky to win a WS.
You’re forgetting about another possible outcome, diminished skills. Baseball is hard and it’s not uncommon for “good” players to stop being “good” for no apparent reason. Bellinger, Hosmer, and Heyward are just a few examples to cite. Now all of these once really good players have negative value.
So don’t suggest teams can’t lose, even if players sign team friendly deals. Tabata and Polanco are two recent Pirate players who were bad bargains even at team friendly prices.
Scott- You’re forgetting another possible reason
Once some guys get a big money contract,their impetus to grow as a player becomes constrained.Willie Shoemaker said everything was different once you can afford to sleep in silk pajamas.The pressure is off once they are set for life.
In general I’m opposed to extensions; history has shown that they’re just not a very good idea (ya, I know Mad Max; how many of him are out there?). The same folks screaming about extending Reynolds are likely to be screaming “How do we get out of this?” in a couple of years.
I realize these guys are athletes, but there’s no way, when you’re standing there on a 95 degree night in PNC during August, and there’s so few fans you can here the fat guy in the 5th row every time he farts, and you know that nothing you do has any effect on anything (including your paycheck), that you’re at optimum effort; athletes are human, first. And that’s nothing against Reynolds or Hayes; like ’em both. but you have to put players in a position to maximize their talents.
The ONLY extension I’d consider for Hayes (who I agree is a plus fielder) would be to front load a deal that buys out his first year of arbitration; give the man some money now, instead of making him wait and play 2 more years for minimum. He’s done enough to deserve that.
You are thinking of different extensions than the Pirates. They aren’t giving out 200 300 million contracts.
With the state of Pirates farm system, specifically it’s depth of 45+ and higher prospects, if they can’t field a good team in a couple years, everyone in management needs to be fired.
This organization has shown, they will not spend any legitimate money on FA’s or In the playoff hunt at trade deadline when they do have a solid core. So what is the reason for any of these player’s in the Pirate’s organization to sign an extension or any long term deal with this organization?? Go play, build your stock, get traded, sign in FA with a legit contender. Bottom Dollar Bob is a joke, save your money fans, go spend it at away games if you want to see the player’s.
They spend when needed. That’s only been 4 or 5 years out of the last 30. They haven’t spent more than 60 million though. And why should they when they were able to get 20 million production out of players making less than 10.
In all seriousness, the Pirate’s have never spent when they had a core of talent 1990-92 & 2013-15. What they do is sign fringe bounce back player’s, and trade talent that are tied to team friendly contract’s when they run out of time on those contracts. Nothing with change.
So you believe they should spend a lot more money even though they can get almost as good, the same, or better production for a lot less. And instead of trading expiring assets they should either extend the old declining player or just let them leave for nothing in return. Got it. We agree to disagree.
Central-A lot of the “fringe bounce back players” that NH signed worked out well.
They spent over $90M on the two last years of their last mid decade run.They kept the best players in the early 90 run until they lost them in free agency.
Their plan was to trade players a year or two before free agency to get near ready ML players in return.The problem was that their drafting and development teams were mediocre.That is not good for a small market team.
Do you think that you are being a bit negative on your review of the Pirates?
If they extend one of Hayes, Cruz or Reynolds the others may follow suit showing commitment to players and to win.
I believe it would be in their best interest to lock all three up though 2028.
I would also do a front loaded deal. Especially now with the pirates payroll so low they could easily afford it. With more performance bonuses going down the contract.
would also carry extra insurance on hayes. in his short mlb time hes been hurt a lot.
And each one you listed again, doesn’t need to sign with this organization. They all have the talent to make $$ as FA’s , and two Hayes/Cruz father’s were in MLB/MILB players. So they all know from family and their agents telling them, look FA sign with contender who will keep signing the best players and trading for FA to win WS or this Pirates org. That won’t give out big contracts and in 2yrs of signing a team friendly you’re stuck even in trade at this #$$$$ and you might not be going to a legit contender.
Player’s just want payed. They don’t care what other players are doing. All 3 will sign if all 3 are offered extensions that are beneficial to them.
Reynolds needs to see 6/$120… Hayes needs 6/$100, I wouldn’t pay Cruz until 2023 winter 6/$80. And I do not see Nutting shelling those contracts and signing +3 War tier FA’s…what I see is Reynolds being moved within next 1yr. I don’t believe the Pirate’s will ever get the concept like Tampa has. Draft quality, upgrade through trades even if you are trading top prospects, sign veteran quality FA’s $$ to flip, those same trades, trade again upgrading and if it takes +15 trades to get you into the WS & stay competitive so be it.
Owners Like Nutting don’t get overly involved in the baseball decisions unless they think it is something crazy. I wouldn’t think committing “big” money to these players would fit that bill as it isn’t crazy depending on what it takes to do it.
They give a budget and let the front office handle it, if the FO needs more then they go to the owner.
Also the Pirates were trying to do exactly what you said under Neal and it failed miserably. The idea is sound in fact most teams do similar it just didn’t work when they had their big chance and had to give up on that and get another core to build around.
I get that the Pirates are poorly run and cheap. I actually think the extent of their misery (at least over the last decade) is overstated. Everyone acts like there’s zero history of this owner extending players. That’s not true. They may be traded later, but when ownership sees a core group of prospects ready to emerge, they are willing to commit to players. The Pirates extended McCutchen, Marte, Polanco, Morton, etc during the last run. Also, if you excluded last years abysmal record, the Pirates have more total wins over the previous 10 seasons than the MAJORITY of MLB teams including the Astros and Mets. Are they bad? Yes. Still, people conveniently forget when they actually do something decent.
Pirates aren’t poorly run with Travis Williams and Ben Cherington. You are going to see them in the playoffs a lot the next dozen years. Not cheap either. Thrifty and smart.
So what kind of dollar figures should Hayes and reynolds get. Obviously they are not acuna, tatis type. But reynolds has proven to be a star at cf and Hayes hasn’t proved anything but defense
20 some million a year during age 30 through 36 37. With Reynolds being around 25 and hayes around 20.
No.
Reynolds is controlled for 4 years and will get $60 M in Arb. He becomes a FA at 31. Best he does is 4/120 in FA. So if pirates offer him 7/125 he jumps at it.
reynolds 20-25m/year average adding two years at the end and maybe options. Given Reynolds Arb is going to go way up the next couple years it is less of a hit against his payroll hit.
Hayes right now 15-20m/year average with bonuses. After the season, more if he can get 20hrs, stay healthy and show that gold glove defense we expect. Hayes hasn’t had extended looks at the MLB yet with his injuries.
By “serious” they mean they are trying harder to convince him to take less money on a team friendly deal.
Pirates Opening Day Payroll:
2014: $71,929,333
2015: $90,053,000
2016: $99,945,000
2014-2016: 38.9% increase
The average MLB payroll increased 19.7% during that same time period. Nutting has spent money when they were a contending team and if not for running into the best pitchers in the wildcard games (Arrieta, MadBum) the Pirates could’ve made a legit run. Money isn’t the reason the Pirates have been in the basement the last few years. It was the poor drafting and developing from the last regime, as well as an awful trade.
Extend his prison sentence? What crime did he commit?
NOTE: He would still be much better off in Pittsburgh than he would be in Queens.
Nuck-I mainly agree with you,and you bring up points that many other posters miss.
Poor drafting and development I think may be a little too strong,but a small market team needs to be way better than mediocre at best.
Due to the vicissitudes of life,they were kept from either winning the division or getting into five game playoff series.Their record over that three year period was the second best in baseball.The best was St Louis who was their division winner every year.
They had the best NL non division winner record each year.The second wild card and the one game playoff was instituted just a year or two before.
And as you say they had the luck to draw arguably the best pitchers in baseball for those two particular years that they lost the wild card game.
This only shows that the best laid plans of mice and men can go astray,I am a biased observer,but it is a shame that that long and bad twenty year nightmare ended in the luck of the draw.
Meh not sure he’s proven to be worth it.