6:27pm: Jeff Jones of the Belleville News-Democrat tweets that Arenado is continuing with his pre-game routine, indicating he’s appealing his suspension. The Cards announced that Cabrera has accepted his suspension and will serve it tonight; he’d likely not have been available anyhow after throwing 29 pitches yesterday.
6:15pm: Major League Baseball announced this evening that Cardinals star third baseman Nolan Arenado and reliever Génesis Cabrera have each been suspended for their roles in yesterday’s bench-clearing incident with the Mets at Busch Stadium. Arenado was suspended for two games, while Cabrera received a one-game ban. Arenado and Cabrera are set to serve their suspensions beginning with tonight’s game against the D-Backs, although each player could delay that by appealing. It isn’t yet clear whether either plans to do so.
Arenado took exception to a first-pitch fastball from Mets’ reliever Yoan López that sailed up-and-in. He and López began jawing and the dugouts and bullpens emptied, with the teams coming together at home plate. That came a half-inning after Cabrera hit J.D. Davis on the foot with an offering. Arenado and St. Louis first base coach Stubby Clapp were ejected for their roles in the scrum. (Cabrera was suspended “for his actions during the incident,” not because the league determined he’d thrown at Davis intentionally).
No Mets were ejected or suspended. López was handed an undisclosed fine for contributing to the benches clearing. St. Louis starter Jack Flaherty and Mets starter Taijuan Walker were each hit with fines for participating in the argument while on the injured list.
Well it was over the top to be sure
St. Louis is pond scum
And you’re not?
Most cities are not sure what point you are trying to make
By “St. Louis” do you mean the team or the city . . . or the saint?
@Al Hirschen
Considering that the Mets are the ones that love Keith Hernandez, let’s ask Whitey Herzog which city is “pond scum”.
Whitey Herzog is my all time favorite so I’m a bit torn here
@Cosmo2
You know, I learned so much about baseball and how to utilize speed when I was a kid due to watching how Herzog managed his Cardinals. I have been a ‘Small Ball’ advocate in baseball ever since.
Definitely the most exciting and fun way to approach the sport. Watching the 1985 Cardinals was a dream! I wish someone could figure out how to do that today.
@Cosmo2
Definitely. Baseball is losing a lot of strategy and philosophy differential as every team keeps going with cookie-cutter styles of baseball. Teams rarely have the personality of a style of play.
With Small Ball, we see some teams try it, but definitely Small Ball today is nothing close to what Herzog did. The last team I remember came closest to it with a lot of the same approaches, but nowhere close overall, was the Royals in 2014 and 2015. Before that, the 2003 Marlins. But both teams, far from the Cardinals of the mid-80s.
Fun stuff to remember!
Man, Cosmo & Marlins, you guys are so right. And if they would continue playing real baseball, it wouldn’t need nearly as many adjustments to make the game more active. I despise TTO offenses, and I have been punished by watching the Yankees’ TTO poster boys for years now. Thankfully, they’re playing small(er) ball, finally, and surprise, they actually move runners & score when they do!
Last nights game showed some signs of the “small ball” mentality. A lot of first to third, taking advantage of opportunities for an extra base. By no means am I comparing this team to the 85′ but it was enjoyable to see.
Al Hisrchen, that is a pretty scummy thing to say.
So basically an off day or two.
MLBTR- it would be great if you could start another app where interested fans could comment on other aspects of the game as easily as we can here. As fans we are constantly frustrated and looking for an outlet for our thoughts.
What you mean?
I think he’s talking about a forum or message board where we talk about things other than just the posts themselves.
A thread for all of the trolls would be welcomed. They know who they are.
The reason so many trolls are here is because other sports sites shut down their comment section.
The Athletic and Fangraph comment sections have always been open and readable.
Fangraphs appeals to a more stats-based audience, so they’re less likely to draw trolls. The regulars there basically make trolls uncomfortable, but they still exist there too. The Athletic is a for-pay site, so that keeps some of it under control depending on the topic.
I’d add Defector to that list. The comment section there is lovely, and sometimes the best part of an article.
have a thread dedicated to how bad Manfred is
They might have to add a dedicated server to handle the volume.
if you’re on the internet commenting, consider yourself a troll
I aspire to be an internet troll but right now all real estate under bridges is taken.
I mean in reality if the Cardinals were to try and hit someone, they wouldn’t ask Cabrera to do it. He throws hard and looks intimidating, but he would probably miss if he were trying to hit someone. His reputation as a head hunter is misguided. He just doesn’t know where any of his pitches are going.
Hopefully Flaherty didn’t get injured while arguing.
No, but he did get fined for leaving the dugout as a player on the injured list.
He hit Pete Alonso in their first meeting in 2019 too. Probably has some beef with him.
My life is better having been reminded of Stubby Clapp.
Great baseball name. Not quite as good (or bad, depending on your perspective) as Dick Pole, but great nonetheless.
This user formerly known as Pete LaCock would like to argue.
Johnny Dickshot for the win.
Don’t forget about Rusty Kunz.
Rusty Kuntz still wins it for me
Dick Pole still doesn’t hold a candle to Rusty Kuntz
Exactly to all of you that mentioned Rusty Kuntz. The only one that I see close to him was Kosuke Fukudome.
Wasn’t Fukudome and Fukudomi in the 1st Austin Powers movie?
They were Fookyu and Fookmi
Most of those ailments will clear up with Penicillin.
I remember when my stubby got the clap… …
For the record, I’d like to mention that the pitch to Arenado was as close to being a strike as it was to hitting him.
Thats why the Mets pitcher remained in the game.
In fact, I’m willing to bet that if you took data from all pitches at least as high and at least as close to a RHH as the one to Arenado, more than 98% occur without hurt feelings.
I guess now it’s safe to say we can add “tremendous (98th percentile) pussboi” to Arenado’s already exceptional skillset.
100% correct.
Absolutely wrong. I have no skin in the game but it almost hit him in the head. Just because the Mets can’t hit a barn door don’t try to play this off
Sorry @Cobi, but the umpires AND the League both disagree with you. Thanks for playing though, we have some nice parting gifts for you.
LMAO!
This is wrong. It wouldn’t have hit hands if he hadn’t moved them.
Do me a favor and look up the pitch to Brandon Nimmo in the top of the second. MLB game day logs have it.
Let’s compare the two, shall we?
Wasn’t even close to his head. You weren’t watching the same game lol
Are you serious? If so you are blind as hell.
This coming from the person somehow blaming the Mets for being hit 19 times thus far (see below).
Statcast pitch data doesn’t lie. Do you need a link?
What are your thoughts on the pitch to Brandon Nimmo in the top of the 2nd?
There was an article written on a Yankee site pertaining to the change in baseballs and the resulting factors that plays on pitchers gripping them, especially coupled with the lack of available sticky stuff. I thought it was pretty stand up when Chris Bassitt came out and basically said the baseballs are, in his opinion, just as responsible for the HBPs – in effect, he took the blame off the Cards pitchers.
That said, Alonso was been hit in the head twice, if I’m not mistaken, and accident or not, that’s just not a good look. It’s not like he’s right on top of the plate like Rizzo is either.
I don’t blame Arenado for being upset because it’s natural to have some response. But, I don’t think there was any intent to hit him & he let his emotions get the better of him.
Absolutely embarrassing take
add pete alonso into the pussification mix
Retaliation by the Mets was fine, but up and in fastballs when intentional are dangerous. Would’ve been over if Arenado was just plunked properly.
It wasn’t retaliation.
We can call it intentional, but it’s an intentional up and in fastball. Wasn’t exactly close to hitting him. Several fastballs were thrown much closer to hitters throughout the night/series/history of baseball without incident.
It was an intentional pitch towards his head in a situation where the entire ballpark knew he was getting hit. I have absolutely no problem with the intent. It was the location that was troublesome. It didn’t hit him, but it was meant to. Alonso had a scary moment with a changeup. That was awful. Arenado was thrown an up and in fastball. That hits his face and he’s seriously injured. Mets anger was justified, but in my opinion so was Arenado’s. There is a proper way to plunk someone. This wasn’t it.
Scary moment @Von? The Mets have had two guys get hit in the face with fastballs already. They have been hit 19 times overall, 6 more than the next highest total (Bal). Don’t talk about scary moments to the guys that have actually been hit.
If you read what I wrote you would see that that’s exactly what I was talking about. Alonso was hit with a changeup and it was a scary moment. If Arenado got hit with a fastball in the head his career could have been over. And we need to stop throwing around 19 like they were all the same level. The Mets got hit up and in 3 times, which is scary and problematic. I have no issue when some dude wearing body armor gets hit in the toe or elbow. But when players are getting hit in the head, we have problems. This isn’t me calling out the Cards or Mets. I don’t want to see players hurt over nonsense. No one should intentionally throw at someone’s head ever.
Well have to disagree as to whether it was towards his head.
The umpires didn’t seem to think it was.
If you get hit that much more than the next team it’s probably you. For example if you have had 5 ex wives its probably you thats doing something.
It’s a function of scouting reports steering pitchers to throw inside more to the Mets hitters.
@mattm-13
I won’t go as far to say that, and I can’t say that I can say what’s happening because my Marlins haven’t faced the Mets this year yet. But I can state what I’ve seen from some of their players for the last couple of years.
Yes, you may have something about them being hit so much being their fault because all of us fans of division rivals do know there are quite a few Mets that crowd the plate. That’s a factor. But I will not justify any of the head-hunting by any team.
With that stated, I’ll have a better observation when I see the Marlins pitchers against the Mets. But in advanced, I do know from the last couple of years games, Nimmo, Lindor, Alonso, Dom Smith, McNeil, Cano, McCann, and a couple of others do crowd the plate. Conforto did too, but is not with them this year (yet). Marte did it when he was with us. It’s what analytics-led teams tend to do to spike up their OBP. To remedy the problem, teams need to complain to the umpires prior to games to assure that any pitch over the plate is called a strike, even if Mets players get plunked because their leaning over it or sticking their elbows out.
The pitch was not egregious in any way. Arenado approached that at bat expecting to get hit. He overreacted because of his presupposition.
When you plunk someone, it needs to be down or behind the batter. Arenado’s overreaction was because it was up and in. I disagree that it wasn’t egregious.
To each their own; however, the League disagrees with you via not suspending Lopez.
Lopez was fined. So he was punished. Had Arenado actually been hit, the punishment would have been far more severe.
Lopez was “fined an undisclosed amount for contributing to the benches clearing”. Twist it how you want to @Von. But he wasn’t fined for the pitch. He was fined for jawing back at Arenado. Your being blinded by Mets hatred.
you’re*
I’m not being blinded by Mets hatred. The Mets have nothing to do with it. There’s no way Showalter told Lopez to throw at someone’s head. Lopez did that on his own. I think that was dumb, and I think aball to the ribs or backside ends the conflict while sending a proper message. Instead, we get more drama next time these two teams play. Again no problem at all with the Mets anger. Just a problem with intentional pitches up and in. That goes beyond fandom for any team. I just don’t want to see anyone crippled ovee drama.
I hear you, @Von. I misunderstood your point.
did you see where the pitch actually landed vs where arenado was actually standing that was a bigger distance than an angel hernandez ball called a strike.
The pitch landed just above the left middlish of the S in the sign behind the catcher while arrenados head was over a full letter maybe even a letter half away where the H is in the back.. Was it a message pitch 110% but was he aiming for the head i dont think so but it was a pitch telling them we can do that too after alonso got hit.in the head.
When a pitch is coming close to 100mph near your head, it’s tough to tell exactly where it lands. The issue was, Arenado knew he was getting thrown at, and Lopez cheekily through up and in. I think he should just plunked him in the ribs. No need to mess with anyone’s head literally and figuratively.
baseball needs more bob gibson’s
More Bob Gibson’s what?
the high and tight
Ah
The Mets almost never retaliate, and the very few times they do, they eff it up and it’s extremely awkward. In my 45 years of watching their games, I’ve never known them to ever initiate that kind of b.s. Say whatever you want about the Mets, but don’t ever say that they play dirty.
This whole situation is weird. At somes points it seems like complete bush league on both sides, then Bassitt comes out and rips MLB about the baseballs.
I have to say that there is something off about the baseballs. I won’t bash Bassitt or any of the hitters either for some of the comments.
Here’s my observations. I’ve been around baseball my entire life from t-ball all the way until playing in college…and of course a fan of MLB along the way. I, like many of us that have watched these games forever, know what a HR sounds like off the bat (aluminum, composite and wood) when a ball is tagged pretty good. So far this year, I’ve seen HRs barely get over or hit off the fences that sounded like no-doubters, and I’ve seen balls that have been fairly deep flies that had the HR torque explosion sound off the bat. We’ve all seen guys that have been surprised that certain balls they hit have not been HRs.
So, yeah, I think there’s something wrong with the balls this year. It’s either a problem with the surface of the cover or the inner core and padding. I can understand how a pitcher would be bothered as well. Pitchers know the feel of a ball the minute they pick it up. Hitters know something is off when they get their full torque onto a ball and see it do something out of the ordinary. It’s like the differential between the types of softballs that certain beer leagues use. Some are high offense while others are not. In baseball, it’s like the change of baseballs from one rec league level to another when kids are first starting (wrap, material, core, padding, etc.). These are what this is reminding me of.
Excellent summation, Marlins. I didn’t see this before I wrote my response below.
@Yankee Clipper
Agreed on all parts of the discussion. – the balls, the HBPs, etc. I’m not sure what to make of the game this year. I’m wondering if MLB will switch out the balls mid-season if enough players (both pitchers and hitters) keep complaining.
As for the HBPs, my remedy would be hardcore by disallowing use of the body armor. I’m pretty sure that would decrease HBPs by about half…but of course, our game would start having soccer scores.
The Athletic had a recent piece about hitters complaining about the ball. There is increased drag and sufficient data evidence to support their claims.
Man, you ain’t kidding. I think some may not want to even get in the box… The most concerning is the fact that MLB bought Rawlings (from what I read) in 2018, & immediately started screwing with ball construction – hence, 2019 HR explosion & this year’s counter effect.
They should have a third-party group develop a neutral baseball & use only that ball, which is tackier for the pitchers for safety, yet launches the pre-2019 speeds, on average.
The studies should be available for review, and MLB’s isn’t.
Honestly the worst thing in baseball is that the actual ball is tinkered with.
I hate it. Just effing leave it the hell alone.
Once the weather starts to pick up, MLB will switch the balls back to the juiced ones and just say the offensive outburst is due to the warm weather.
John Rocker: Yeah, or with an important game for MLB to draw attendance due to marketing (TV viewership included) like the Yankees/ChiSox game last season on the Field of Dreams.
Once basketball ends more people will watch the FOX and ESPN night games so I expect around then
pitchers have been using sticky stuff to throw, some of them can’t get used to pitching without mlb changing the cover to accommodate them.
I agree completely.
In the KBO, there is a mandatory automatic ejection and suspension for any pitcher who hits a batter in the head, regardless of intent.
What’s the objection to that here?
Had no idea that was the case over there. I really would have no issue with such a rule and the more I think about it the more in favor of it. I have no issue with a pitcher pushing a guy off the plate and pitching inside but if you don’t have control of the up and in fastball then you shouldn’t be throwing it.
Absolutely.
The whole retaliation thing is nonsense. Since when could an intentional fastball to the hip/back = several unintentional pitches to the face/head/neck? That seems to be the case here and the old unwritten rules of baseball don’t have an answer for it.
Ultimately the pitcher is the only one capable of hitting or not hitting the batter according to his will/ability (or lack thereof).
It’s been part of the game but so were runners once barrelling over catchers. These days hitters wear so many body guards so I guess the league deems it OK until a star player gets some crippling injury.
Fine with me.
I see no issue with it.
Arenado came to the plate with a guilty conscience knowing his own pitching staff put him in a bad spot of likely being hit in retaliation. But he already had his mind made up about what his reaction to getting hit would be and put on quite the production. Problem is it never came close to hitting him and he looks like an absolute bozo now and took a step down in the eyes of a lot of savvy baseball peeps. His rep definitely took a big hit from this incident.
Any effect this slight overreaction has on his “rep” will be forgotten by the All-Star break.
100% correct, @Yanks
Everyone is just sick of whiny Mets reflecting whiny crybaby showalter.
Exactly they are whiny. In one game Marte gets hit with the bases loaded in a 2 to 0 game and he acted like they hit him on purpose. That started the whole fiasco.
It’s not like this is the first time Arenado threw a hissy fit at being thrown at and instigated a benches clearing brawl.
he’s looking more like a manny machado every day
Bench clearing brawls are an embarrassment. These are grown men. Ridiculous behavior. Can you imagine if it were acceptable for a riot to break out in your office once in a while? It’s completely unjustifiable.
I am able to confirm that I can imagine that.
It’s hilarious.
Can you imagine if one team just didn’t come out? What would they do? Beat one guy up? Stand around yelling?
I’d pay money to see that.
Haha. Now I really want this to happen.
See the movie Major League 2.
I imagine it would look something like the ‘Anchorman’ newscaster brawl scene.
Does any other sport allow players to get off the bench without penalty?
I was at a college basketball once when half of one teams bench left their seats to participate in the shoving on the court. They spent the rest of the game in the locker room.
The only thing hurt is Arenado’s ego. That was still fairly close to the strike zone.
MLB did say it wanted to appeal to the younger generation with more excitement…
For the season Cardinal pitchers have hit 10 batters, Mets pitchers have hit 7. Those totals put both teams in the middle of the team totals for the year. All you St Louis Cardinal haters need to find some real facts to get ugly about.
And, the HBPs have gone up steadily over the past 5 seasons. That’s a correlation to velo, perhaps. Perhaps amplified by no sticky stuff with max velo & max spin? Either way, the pitch to Arenado was uncomfortable because from his perspective it looked like it was coming toward his head. Objectively viewing the game, I think it was an emotional response based on an expected outcome, due to several Mets being hit by pitches, rather than what actually happened, which was a routine pitch that got a bit higher & more inside than what the pitcher intended.
Don’t forget that HBPs also are impacted by guys wearing elbow guards that allow them to crowd or lean over the plate…and occasionally stick their elbows out into one (interestingly “former Met” Conforto for example).
@MFB It’s been over a year and you still haven’t let that one go?! The mental health impacts of holding a grudge are well documented…
Marlins: I do understand that as well. Rizzo for the Yankees is probably the best example of a plate-crowder, although he doesn’t wear all the armor. He’s been hit a record-high 182 times in his career thus far.
So, to your point, I agree, there are many factors at play. I do think Bassitt has a point that cannot be ignored though. He’s a good pitcher and gains no advantage from saying the baseballs are different and can’t be gripped as well in the past. There’s no motive for him & he’s not the only pitcher to say so.
Join us for Michael Conforto Bobblehead Day on June 23rd at loadDepot park!
We could only afford a run of 25 bobbleheads, so they will be given to the first 25 children to volunteer to lean into an 84 mph Anthony Bass slider!
#MakeItMiami
I guess that’s sort of clever
Sensitive bunch in the MLB. Players get all worked up about stuff that testosterone carrying men really shouldn’t get all worked up about. Need to learn to let a few of the more traditional contentious issues pass on through to the catcher without a reaction.
As Buck said, “I’ll let them (STL) worry about their players. I know our guy (Alonso) got hit in the head and went down to first base.”
Scary moment for Alonso,but keep in mind that was an 84mph changeup. The pitch to Arenado was a high 90s fastball. Getting hit in the head by one of those is life threatening. Luckily he wasn’t hit.
Yes, we’re in total agreement. The element you are possibly overlooking is that Alonso was already hit in the face with a fastball which, despite only being a changeup, adds a level of frustration. To me, it’s more admirable that he dusted himself off like a professional and ran down to first. To have the Cardinals players target him and rip him to the ground for no reason is another story. The Mets are winning and teams are clearly gunning for them.
Yes. Alonso did nothing wrong here. I don’t really think oeople are gunning for the Mets because if you look at the pitches that hit the Mets, tgey were clearly unintentional and in some cases helped the Mets win games. But, Alonso and the Mets are justifiably frustrated and I thought Alonso handled everything like a class act.
Anybody watching the Cards tonight? Ollie Marmol pulls his pitcher with 2 outs in the 9th in an 8-2 game. Only to watch Wittgren give up a GR double and then a walk. D-Backs end up with the bases loaded and the top of the order coming up. Marmol had to get Gallegos up just in case. Ridiculous. Just remember the computer is NEVER wrong. And neither is Mo.
They should have brought Cabrera in… oh, I forgot…
Who is the majors current Ron Hunt? I can’t think of a guy out there trying to get hit this day and age.
Edmundo Sosa. Look up the hit by pitch numbers.
Something else noteworthy I saw in this game was Oliver Marmol leaving Matz in the game, even when he clearly struggled, with 70P in the 2nd, and gave up 4 runs. Oliver not only conferred with Matz & left him in for that inning plus, but he also checked with Yadi.
That seems counter to the prototypical analytics-driven managers of today who pivot to the ‘pen at the first signs of struggle by the SPs. Also, O”Neill made a great catch to save more runs with the bases jammed.
Cards fans: Is that normal for Oliver to do that? If so, that awesome to have in today’s game.
He’s only managed I think 16 games up to this point (I think he missed two when he was sick). Nobody has any idea what will be normal for him.
Also, a very good point. I wasn’t sure if he’s made similar decisions (to trust his pitcher’s performance) in other games too. If so, that’s great to see & the Cards are lucky to have someone that can actually make a decision without looking at a stat sheet. Time will tell, nonetheless. Cards have a good team though, for sure. Their defensive capabilities are almost unmatched.
Clapp should be suspended for being stubby
Angel Hernadez would of called that a strike on Arenado’s high and tight pitch!
Arenado should be suspended at least 10. 5 for inciting a riot and 5 just for being a jag.