In June 2020, a New York district court ordered Major League Baseball and the Yankees to unseal a letter sent by commissioner Rob Manfred to New York general manager Brian Cashman in 2017 regarding rules violations by the club from 2015-16. The Yankees appealed that ruling, but the appeal was rejected by the 2nd Circuit last week, as Evan Drellich of the Athletic reported on Thursday.
The contents of the so-called “Yankee letter” — which is expected to be officially unsealed later this week — were reported by Andy Martino of SNY this afternoon. The letter revealed that MLB determined the Yankees had used the video replay room to decode signs during the 2015 and 2016 seasons. The letter also revealed the team occasionally improperly used the dugout phone to relay decoded signs from the replay room to the dugout. When New York had a runner on second base, that runner would pass along the forthcoming pitch type to the batter. (The Athletic had reported in January 2020 the Yankees had used the replay room to decode signs). Allegations by the Red Sox the Yankees were using cameras from the YES Network to steal signs were found unsubstantiated in Manfred’s letter.
Perhaps the most notable piece of new information from the release of the letter is that MLB fined the Yankees $100K for the misuse of the dugout phone. That the league had fined the Yankees was reported in September 2017, though the amount of the punishment was unknown until today.
All of the Yankees’ rules violations outlined in the letter occurred prior to September 15, 2017, when the league informed all 30 clubs it’d be cracking down on sign-stealing. That sets the Yankees’ violations apart from the Astros’ 2017-18 sign-stealing scandal (which was also far greater in scope than the league found the Yankees had orchestrated) and the Red Sox’s 2018 misuse of the video room.
The Yankees and MLB both released statements this afternoon (via Drellich) that delineated between pre-09/15/17 violations and those that occurred after MLB announced its crackdown. As part of its statement, the league stated the Yankees “were fined for improper use of the dugout phone because the Replay Review Regulations prohibited the use of the replay phone to transmit any information other than whether to challenge a play. The Yankees did not violate MLB’s rules at the time governing sign stealing.”
The Yankees stated they fought against the publication of the commissioner’s letter in part “to prevent the incorrect equating of events that occurred before the establishment of the Commissioner’s sign-stealing rules with those that took place after. What should be made vibrantly clear is this: the fine noted in Major League Baseball’s letter was imposed before MLB’s new regulations and standards were issued.”
Fans figure to make their own judgments about the moral implications of the Yankees’ actions. Even if one feels that sign-stealing before the league’s crackdown was fair game, there’s no question the New York organization broke the league’s rules regarding the dugout phone when they used it to pass along signs from the replay room to on-field personnel. That said, nothing within the contents of the commissioner’s letter come as a surprise relative to what had already been reported. It’s clear from the league’s statement on the matter it considered the issue final after levying the fine five years ago, and there won’t be any further discipline.
So basically everyone cheated but the Astros did it best. That means something right?!
Still annoys me watching these teams cheat on the field and yet the Braves are the ones to receive a hefty punishment for illegal communication .
Braves were probably doing the same thing.
Braves were punished far worse (in terms of draft capital and lifetime bans) for their cheating in 2015.
MLB league enforcement gives the Yankees a “pass” for
sign stealing worse and over a longer period of time than the Astros?!
Why am I not surprised?!
@mr0940 Can you show me where the Braves cheated in a game? Therefore, you should clarify what you’re asserting, as that’s a slur against players.
Someone didn’t read the article. It clearly says that the Astros’ scandal was worse, and unlike with the Yankees it took place after the rules had been tightened.
You missed, likely purposely, the part about the Astros cheating after the other teams stopped post Manfred’s letter. That’s the “equating” part referenced.
I somehow refuse to believe teams just stopped stealing signs. No one knew the Astros were cheating until after the season was over. Heck, who knows..maybe MLB knew teams were but they decided to withhold that info. The other teams were just not caught otherwise.
Not to mention that the Astros received far minor punishment relative to what they deserved especially knowing MLB apparently warned teams prior. So again, not buying it.
Speculation but my point is he knew other teams were cheating too so he reduced the punishment for the Astros.
Also didn’t the Red Sox get caught using Apple watch in 2018 – which is post warning? What punishment did they get?
If anything this further tempers Manfred’s reputation vs. the teams.
Probably not, though it would be a mistake to think every team was doing it. Plenty, maybe most, were not. But they were warned….
But you are wrong on the punishment. Astros were pretty severely punished. The punishment they received far exceeded what the Yankees got. And warranted given how much more severe their cheating was. In no way, shape, or form was baseball going to strip the Astros of their WS title. So if that was your idea of a just punishment, you need to just give that up.
The Red Sox lost their second round draft pick in 2019 as punishment for the Apple Watch issue. So yes, they were punished.
That is it? What a deterrence especially after apparently being warned. No wonder teams are still likely doing it in some form. No wonder Roberts guaranteed a WS for them.
“No one knew the Astros were cheating until after the season was over”
You really do stay asleep don’t you.
Idk, kinda basing it on the fact that no one stopped them before they won – especially given the methods they used. Of course, wouldn’t surprise me if it was just kept shut.
If players on 2nd can figure out signs and relay them that is gamesmanship. If they use video to do it I can’t see how anyone honestly would think it was OK.
If you get pulled over for doing 50 in a 35 on an unfamiliar road and you get a ticket whose fault is it? Ignorance used to not be an excuse but seems that has changed. I can’t see having to tell teams it is cheating to use cameras video binoculars etc It should be a given. Most cops on the speeding thing should give you a warning if you treat them with respect but it isn’t a given.
If you are doing something that you would be upset if they did it to you it is probably wrong. I don’t see how any of these teams wants us as fans to believe they didn’t know it is/was wrong. None of those teams cheating affected Seattle so I don’t care but just don’t kick me in the testis and tell me to like it.
No one PUBLICLY knew the Astros were cheating until the season was over.
Not Woke Spilling Truth: No, the Red Sox were not caught using an Apple Watch in 2018. Please read MLB’s report on the 2018 Red Sox.
Because why would the Pirates or Orioles cheat?
Have a few buddies who worked with different teams and they all knew when the Astros came into town that they would be cheating. Kinda like how you saw Angel Hernandez behind the plate and you roll your eyes. We all know its a joke but still gotta play.
But they cheated at home… your story needs work
kingken67: The Red Sox lost their 2020 second round draft pick. This happened after MLB’s investigation of the 2018 Red Sox. It was a punishment for being a second time offender – the first time being the 2017 Apple Watch incident. The interesting thing is MLB’s investigation of the 2018 Red Sox failed to document a single instance of cheating. Nothing in The Athletic’s accusation article was confirmed during the investigation. I recommend everyone read the report. It’s conclusion was unsupported by evidence and very unfair to the Red Sox and Red Sox fans.
That’s not the reason Manfred gave for not punishing the players. First of all, they were promised immunity in return for testifying. And later, Manfred said: “So we knew if we had disciplined the players in all likelihood we were going to have grievances and grievances that we were going to lose on the basis that we never properly informed them of the rules.”
espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28714873/mlb-commissioner-…
Astros punishment was overly severe compared to long time cheating teams like the Yankees and, Red Sox etc…
They didn’t just cheat at home though. Also don’t insult someone by saying “my story needs work” when most of these articles on here are full of grammar errors and incomplete data/stories.
If other teams were doing what Houston was doing (and MLB knew about it at the time) they were punished too much. It cost them their coach, their GM, $5 MM, and multiple draft picks. That isn’t a weak punishment at all.
The punishment given the Astros, in terms of financial considerations, was far worse than the Yankees’ fine. It was also the maximum allowed by the MLB rules at the time. The Yanks did not lose any future draft picks and were only fined 10% of what the Astros received.
Also, do you seriously think any team stopped stealing signs after all that just because the team and Manfred said they did? All they simply did was find a more sophisticated way to do it. It’s only a matter time before teams figure out a way to use the new PitchCom technology to steal and relay signs to the hitter.
Stealing signs was never against the rules, and still is not. It’s perfectly legal. It’s the specific mechanisms you use to steal the signs that may be prohibited.
No team has stopped trying to steal signs. They’ve just stopped using illegal means to do so.
Well, it’s a good thing that there’s no evidence that any other team was doing what the Astros did to the degree that they did it.
There wasn’t evidence until they offered immunity. After the way the Astros were treated nobody in their right mind would admit to doing anything like that again.
Where was the move to strip the Yankees of 3-4 World Series titles
“won” by a team full of roided up doping athletes?!
Yeah right! How does anyone know that.!?
I be they are still cheating and have refined their methods to cut down on detection by the MLB
The other teams like the Yankees and Red Sox never really stopped. They just got more sophisticated in their methods.
Of course they will not fully blame the Yankees. That is why baseball is in the toilet. God forbid we upset the Yankees and their fans. Let’s see Cashman continue to cry about the Astro’s. Also spare me Yankee fans, cheating is cheating and the Yankees CHEATED. 13 years and counting
Longer than that when you count the last 4 Yankees World Series Title’s
were “won” with a team that looked like many of the former Soviet
roided up weight lifters and roided up Olympians..
I think the interesting thing is MLB revealed to the public in 2017 that the Red Sox used electronics (Apple Watch) to relay stolen sign info, but did not reveal that the Yankees used electronics (dugout phone) to relay stolen sign info. The Red Sox got crucified in the media and the Yankees did not.
Interesting perhaps, but also inaccurate.
“Major League Baseball has concluded its investigation into the sign-stealing controversy that involved the Boston Red Sox, the New York Yankees and an Apple Watch. . . .
“Furthermore, the Yankees were fined after MLB found evidence that they’d inappropriately used the dugout phone during one of their past championship runs.” – Mike Oz, Yahoo Sports, September 15, 2017
sports.yahoo.com/red-sox-yankees-fined-mlbs-invest…
The Mandela Effect is operative in this thread.
Suit’s point is that they hid how/what the Yankees were doing with the phone, and yes, they did.
Fink: From the article you cited: “Furthermore, the Yankees were fined after MLB found evidence that they’d inappropriately used the dugout phone during one of their past championship runs. MLB wasn’t clear about which year or what exactly happened, only that the Yankees were fined a smaller amount than the Red Sox.”
Now we have clarity about how the Yankees misused the dugout phone and this supports what I said. In 2017, MLB disclosed that the Red Sox used electronics (Apple Watch) to relay stolen sign info, but did not disclosed that the Yankees used electronics (dugout phone) to relay stolen sign info. They fined the Red Sox and disclosed details. They fined the Yankees but did not disclosed the details. BTW, I doubt either the Yankees or Red Sox got much of an advantage from either as I mentioned below.
This is from Manfred’s 2017 statement regarding the use of the Apple watch and the dugout phone:
“At the outset, it is important to understand that the attempt to decode signs being used by an opposing catcher is not a violation of any Major League Baseball Rule or Regulation. Major League Baseball Regulations do, however, prohibit the use of electronic equipment during games and state that no such equipment ‘may be used for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a Club an advantage.’ Despite this clear Regulation, the prevalence of technology, especially the technology used in the replay process, has made it increasingly difficult to monitor appropriate and inappropriate uses of electronic equipment. Based on the investigation by my office, I have nonetheless concluded that during the 2017 season the Boston Red Sox violated the Regulation quoted above by sending electronic communications from their video replay room to an athletic trainer in the dugout. . . .
“In the wake of the Yankees’ complaint to the Commissioner’s Office, the Red Sox brought forward allegations that the Yankees had made improper use of the YES Network in an effort to decipher the Red Sox signs. The Commissioner’s Office also investigated this allegation and the Yankees fully cooperated with the investigation. During that investigation, we found insufficient evidence to support the allegation that the Yankees had made inappropriate use of the YES Network to gain a competitive advantage.
“In the course of our investigation, however, we learned that during an earlier championship season (prior to 2017) the Yankees had violated a rule governing the use of the dugout phone. No Club complained about the conduct in question at the time and, without prompting from another Club or my Office, the Yankees halted the conduct in question. Moreover, the substance of the communications that took place on the dugout phone was not a violation of any Rule or Regulation in and of itself. Rather, the violation occurred because the dugout phone technically cannot be used for such a communication.”
Thanks Fink. It will be interesting to see what the letter actually says about the Yankees use of the dugout phone. If it contradicts with this, then what?
Yankees always get favorable treatment by the MLB league.
I read that Charlie Finley, former owner of the Oakland A’s
who acted as his own GM and built a dynasty that won
3 straight World Series titles without cheating,
was disciplined by the Commissioners Office
when he moved the RF fence in in Kansas City to the same dimensions of the short RF home run porch in RF @ Yankee stadium?!
(before he moved the team to Oakland).
It seems that the Commissioner’s office, at the time, would only allow the Yankees the shortest home run porch in RF in baseball.
Other league owers were prohibited from moving their fences in to the same
distance as the RF home run porch @ Yankee stadium
The shortest distance to hit a home run in Major League Baseball is to the left of Pesky’s Pole in Fenway Park, just 302 feet from the plate.
The stadium where it’s easiest to hit a home run is Minute Maid Park:
mlb.com/news/which-is-easiest-ballpark-to-hit-a-ho…
Minute Maid Park in 2021 had the 12th most HR hit, Fenway was 15th in MLB. Overall the top 5 parks for most HR was Baltimore, Cincinnati, Wrigley, Minnesota and Dodger Stadium. The article you cited is at 5 years old. Parks and conditions can change over time, even year to year.
What changes when the parks remain the same is the ability of the players who play there in a given year to hit home runs and the ability of the pitchers who pitch there to suppress home runs. It’s always struck me as odd that there’s so little reference to this when people talk about park factors.
Yankee Stadium. Home of the New York Yankees.
Yankee Stadium gives up a ton of home runs and it’s not because the New York Yankees almost always have a high powered offense. Right field is very short at Yankee Stadium, standing 314 feet with an 8 foot wall. Like the old Yankee Stadium, new Yankee Stadium is a ballpark than benefits left handed hitters greatly. Yankee Stadium gave up 219 home runs in 2015 and 2.70 homes per game. The left field wall stands 318 feet from home plate and center field is 408 feet from home plate.
On that note, Yankee Stadium is also a terrible ballpark for extra base hits due to it’s short outfields. Routine pop fly’s at Petco Park, home of the San Diego Padres, would often be home runs at Yankee Stadium.
Curtis Granderson hit 43, 41 home runs in 2 of his Yankee years.
He hit in the mid 20’s home runs in Comerica Park and reached 30 home runs in only 1 year.
No, the Red Sox were fined for using a disallowed electronic device in the dugout. The fact that it was used specifically to steal signs was not a factor. The Yankees were using a device, the dugout phone, which was allowed in the dugout. They were found to be using it for a disallowed purpose. See the difference? Apple Watch– not allowed in the dugout. Dugout phone– allowed in the dugout, but not to call the replay room and get sign information.
Gasu1: That makes sense. Thanks. I do think that using an Apple Watch and using the dugout phone amounts to the same competitive advantage when relaying sign info. What do you think?
They are comparable. But both teams got fined. The big difference is that MLB went public with the Red Sox and not the Yankees. But there’s also a big difference in how these outcomes came about. The Red Sox were accused by other teams of using the Apple Watch, and these allegations were found to be true. The Yankees were accused of using the YES Network, by the Red Sox, and these allegations were determined to be false. In the course of investigating the Red Sox false claims, they turned up this old violation by the Yankees. But the fact that the Yankees were investigated at all stemmed from a false “whattabout” claim by the Red Sox. Since the only reason the Yankees were investigated at all was this false claim, the only fair thing to do was either to investigate EVERY team, or handle the Yankees case in a low key manner. The Yankees were willing to pay the fine, but didn’t really want to go through the Mitchell situation again, in which a Red Sox director was in charge of the investigation and spent 90% of his effort investigating just the Yankees.
I don’t recall reading a lot of what you are saying. However, I don’t agree that treating the Yankees different from the Red Sox is acceptable. Similar methods should have had similar consequences. How they were discovered shouldn’t matter in my opinion.
Stop saying “everyone cheated” three teams, the Astros, Red Sox and Yankees cheated. Either show evidence for the other 27 or stop saying that lie.
Except, it used to be “just the Red Sox and Astros cheated”. Notice how the letter turned that duo into a trio. You better hope there is no evidence and if there is, it’s not brought to light.
Dodgers got flagged during that time. Rumors mind you, but still.
No, not every team was cheating. Not every team that was had the same system, and I am sure they met with the same low rate of success. Also, not every pitcher was scuffing, but many of them were, during this same period.
This was an arms race, everyone needs to holster their righteousness and BS moral superiority, and breathe.
More teams than that have cheated according to the national sports media.
Orioles, Pirates, and Reds cheat!!!
They cheat their fans every season by not being competitive!!!
Oh, even if those three teams cheated they probably still finish last or near last because they most likely call the other team to tell them what is coming next…
“What the Braves did in 2015, according to a statement from Commissioner Rob Manfred, was to evade the pool limits by saying the prospects had signed for less than what the Braves actually paid. The difference was made up, Manfred said, by taking money from the purported bonus of a player not subject to those limits.
The Braves also evaded the limits in 2016 and 2017 by paying “inflated bonuses” to player agents for lesser prospects in exchange for desired prospects signing at a lower amount.”
They signed more prospects than they should have been allowed to and hid it for multiple years. Once found out, they released all those prospects since they cant just pick and choose at this point. As punishment they severely reduced their international pool for a couple of years.
Also for the record, if the team / player was caught cheating heinously and repeatedly then yes i think any accolades they received should be taken away.
Astros and Yanks aren’t everyone dork
@notwoke
The Yankees, Red Sox, and Astros does not equal “everyone”. 27 other teams were omitted from mention in the letter. It would be more appropriate to say “These few” cheated.
The letter was specifically about the Yankees not the other 29 teams.
Sounds like the Yankees cheated just as much as the Astros. I wonder what the punishment will be?
The league tried to make Astros The Whipping Boy for all of this but Boston New York la Atlanta, Etc. All we’re stealing signs and the Yankees got busted doing it and even at that they still couldn’t win. And they’re still crying about the Astros. This is the epitome of hypocrisy. In the end the Astros were the only ones who stood up and fessed up to what they did. The Yankees and the league as well, tried to cover up and bury their wrongdoing. What a joke!
Seems funny how much the Commissioner shows his favorites.
Money talk^^! Yankees Boston and Dodgers like 20 to 30% off MLB $$
yes which is why the Red Sox have never been punished for this sort of thing…oh wait.
So the commissioner’s favorites are the Yankees, Red Sox & Astros? He must’ve had a messed up childhood, man.
3,2,1… 87 billion misinterpretations of the actual facts
That means baseball is gaining popularity!
…or people have numerous misinterpretations.
*quick glance at the current demographic of baseball*
I see.
Had the league offered immunity to Yankee players the scope would be just as large as Houston’s.
That’s quite a speculation based on zero evidence. But if you’re an Astros fan, any false equivalence is naturally appealing.
Not really. It was all speculation and accusations after Fiers came out and forced the league to investigate. The only reason they learned the whole scope was due to players admitting what was happening. After how all you nutjobs have treated them, no chance any other team would do the same thing.
You poor thing… where did the bad man touch you?
Much bigger..
Yankees have mastered the art of cheating over the years in many areas,,
And still suck
Even greater. The Yankees have been cheating in various forms for a long, long time according to the Media reports…
Ordering pizzas and making prank calls. Now those are proper uses of a dugout phone.
We would call the bullpen (guys have their cells handy out there…) and have them order pizzas and stuff for the booth. Juvenile but so fun, especially to hear the stories post-game.
Caller ID put an end to good ole prank calls. It was fun to dial a random number, and call that person an Hasshole. Ah, the good ole days.
Girardi calling over to Francona to ask if his refrigerator is running.
Cheaters and hypocrites!
No, actually it specifically stipulates that it occurred prior to the crackdown “which sets them apart from the Astros cheating scandal.” It’s amazing how biased everyone is…
Is cheating okay in any form? NO. But this is in no way the same as what the Astros did. To say otherwise demonstrates your subjectivity. Why? Because the neutral article stipulates those facts.
They literally did the same thing, the only difference was how it was relayed to the hitter. You guys did it for two years.
No, they “literally” didn’t do the same thing. At all. And it was pre-letter v post-letter, and one did it to win a WS. How many other differences would you like to conveniently ignore?
Just shows how garbage the Yankees are, can’t even cheat right.
So the Yanks were not trying to win when they did it? That’s funny
I read your message and was going to ignore it hit its the dumbest comment I’ve seen so here is your reply.
I understand you are a giant Yankees homer, but how is there a difference? They got the signs in real time and gave them to a runner at second to relay to the hitter. Basically instead of a trashcan they used a runner. The tool to let the hitter know was the only difference. Just because you guys didn’t win s World Series doesn’t mean one was worse than the other.
Jjd002: If your reply is to me the mere fact that you start with an insult about the team I root for instead of staying on track invalidates any statement you make.
If I have to explain the differences to you AGAIN you’re not smart enough for me to do it for a third time because you simply won’t understand it…ever.
The differences are so readily apparent that you’re either choosing to ignore it because of your fandom, or so ignorant to basic facts that you won’t understand regardless of how many times anyone explains to you the delineated differences listed IN THE ARTICLE WRITTEN ABOVE.
But you can blame the article above, the letter from MLB, the investigation, & everything else on being a “Yankee homer” if you want. I mean, you can’t even insult me with an original insult. Your argument is weak, & if you had one, you would respond with facts instead of repeating the same question which was answered before we ever started conversing on this topic.
You’re blind to facts & it’s unbecoming sir.
Neutral article? It’s all reported by Andy Martino the biggest liar and Yankee kyssas there is.
The guy who wrote a book about the Astros but never interviewed an Astros player or official.
Okay, so your position is that it is biased the Astros cheated post-warning & Yankees cheated pre-warning? Not neutral? Explain, please.
And, keep in mind, I’ve already said that the Yankees should have been punished for cheating when this was discovered. Go on….
Martino is employed by SNY, the Mets network.
Why does it matter about pre/post warning. It was always illegal, the League just wanted to avoid the bad PR the Astros thing brought and reduce possible grievances.
Clipper, the ultimate homer who is always attempting to justify his non-homerism.
Reads just like the NY press
So feel free to correct any part that’s wrong… oh you can’t?
@Yankee Clipper
That this violation occurred before the LEAGUE’S Crackdown, does bring up the question of whether the Yankees’ violation was the reason behind the crackdown. Regardless of the when they got caught, getting caught can only make a team more obviously guilty.
Stymee: Yes, I agree with that & it’s a good question. I do think they should’ve been punished for any replay room violations, even if they were delayed signals. I know they were fined, but I’m okay with harsh punishments for that too.
It is very different than a post-warning, live relay system whereby the hitter gets live pitch-by-pitch signals, especially during the season they won the WS. Even more so when we can audibly count the number of signals from the dugout to the players and watch the fruition of that plan come to pass.
I don’t dispute the impropriety, I do dispute those who equate the two & cite the pre-warning – post-warning violations as the same. They are not. If the Yankees win a WS next year by using electronics to relay signs, ban them – all. I stand by that.
Also, I despise the Red Sox more than I ever did the Astros, naturally. So if this was simply a matter of allegiance I would say the Sox were the same or worse than the Astros, but it isn’t true. Although they cheated and deserved to be punished as well, I never read anything that was tantamount to live-signal-relay cheating. Astros take the cake.
Many of their fans just cannot accept it because they thought this letter was going to reveal the Yankees did the same thing during the post-warning epoch and are now doubling down.
The article repeats from a “sanitized” lawyer written letter that does not state the full scope and the full extent of Yankees cheating,
Correct! This is just an article about the letter, not the letter itself
It is worse than what the Astros did. At least the Astros admitted what they did and apologized. The Yankees and their lawyers appear to be still lying and covering up the team’s misdeeds.
Absolutely! That is the KEY difference between the Astros and the Yankees AND Dodgers.
You might not have enough going on in your life. I suggest meditation.
So because it’s before the crackdown it’s not cheating? GTFO! Why aren’t Barry and Mark in the Hall then?
No, but there is a definitive distinction here. It is certainly cheating. There certainly should’ve been punishments. But, if they wanted to say “it’s a league-wide issue” and send a letter of warning, the post-letter crackdown absolutely differentiates the two. Also, one team used live signals to the hitter from the dugout (garbage cans/buzzers) while the other was with runners on second. The former used signals all the way through winning the WS, the latter did not.
You can ignore the differences, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist. I never said it wasn’t cheating as you inappropriately assert, however.
You can continue to make things up also because that must be fun too…
Mark & Barry juicing up are completely different topics, so there’s nothing like comparing apples & oranges, but regardless, they tainted the whole reason they would’ve been eligible in the first place. I can’t help you if you don’t understand those things.
So because the Yankees weren’t good enough to win a WS it’s different. Got it.
If that’s what you got out of what I wrote then I’m sorry for you. At least be genuine.
I said it wasn’t the same thing for several reasons. Then listed several reasons. You took one, extrapolated it, & said it was the only point. Good try, mostly.
I agree the Astros did worse. All I’m saying is that both teams cheated and yet one is held accountable for all of it while the other hides and talks about how the Astros were the cheaters. That’s hypocrisy. I truly believe the Yankees and their fans are mad that they couldn’t win one with the cheating and someone else did. Another thing, this is only what Andy Martino is saying. We’ll see what the letter really says.
“The Yankees did not violate MLB’s rules at the time governing sign stealing.”
Okay, whiplash, I agree with you on that. I don’t think Yankees fans are mad they couldn’t win with cheating though. We’d prefer to win without cheating at all because we believe we should. I think most are upset at the moral equivalence of pre-& post-letter sign stealing, & the degree to which it was done. But that may just be those with whom I speak the most that few that way.
Again, both cheated, both should be punished. Yankees should’ve been punished immediately upon discovery as should any other team that cheated. To not have done so contributed, at least in part, to a continuation of it. I despise cheating, probably to a fault, but I acknowledge that. Cheating should be punished… that’s just how I feel.
“That feel that way” that sentence should read, naturally.
Right! And if you believe that the I have some oceanfront property in
the Mohave desert that I will sell you too!
Yankees cheated their way to multiple World Series titles.
Yankees are just mad that other teams, apparently, beat them at their own cheating games,
Exactly. A “‘lawyer written letter” is meant to down play the actions of their client and make them out to be innocent even as their hands were slammed in the proverbial cookie jars…
It’s already been established but the GM of the Astros did not communicate this information to the managers and the team so in essence, the Astros were just doing what the Yankees and the Red Sox were doing. Yet again,
the difference is that the Astros admitted it, fessed up to it took the punishment (what little there was) and moved on. They are not, 6 years later, still trying to lie and cover up their behavior.
“The Yankees did not violate MLB’s rules at the time governing sign stealing.”
Not even from the article. FROM THE LETTER ITSELF, BOO.
There’s your difference. Too easy.
And I dislike the Yankees. Reading too hard, dear?
You’re not reading enough. Misuse of the replay phone to use for signs when it was prohibited to be used for nothing other than replay to gain an advantage is cheating.
It sure is! Just like taking a candy bar from a gas station is stealing.
It’s probably not as egregious as stealing a car though.
Anyone is welcome to debate whether the punishments were deserved, but to claim to not understand how/why the Astros got it worse is a little bit… delusional? What would you call it?
You need to read the article again. The quote you stated isn’t from the letter, it’s from the statement from the league.
Mostly irrelevant.
It’s a statement of MLB’s findings. Letter, memo, it doesn’t really matter.
Now it doesn’t matter. You’re a waste of time.
I’m not sorry for your hurt feelings. Seems like a personal problem, really.
Feeling something strongly doesn’t make it true.
That what we’re saying about you.
The only feeling I have is a profound disappointment in the quality of commentary here. To that end, I’m going to mute your personal insults and attacks.
Did you not try to insult me by calling me a lost cause?
Pure rubbish! The only difference and the Red Sox stealing signs oh, the Yankees stealing signs oh, and the Astros stealing signs was the method that they used to get it to the players. To me, it’s worse that the coaches of the Yankees were the ones relaying the signs. Yet again everyone wants to cover up what the truth is about the Yankees
Sorry, dude, but that’s not from the letter that was just released.
@raisinsss
Read it again. The Yankees did violate MLB rules regarding the use of the replay phone. They did that to convey signs to the hitter. If you feel better because the rule they violated was under subsection D, rather than subsection C, good for you. Its still cheating, and they still got caught!
You’re right.
Still cheating.
Still caught.
But as I mentioned earlier, the extent of it really pales in comparison to the World Champion* Houston Astros. I’d be pretty embarrassed if I were an Astros fan, really.
You’re entirely welcome to fabricate my opinion on things so that you might better disagree with it.
Besides, the premise of this entire article and the justification for the different punishments is exactly that different rules were broken. So you’ve been able to identify that, which is a plus.
But it has nothing to do with feelings in any way. So that’s wrong.
Iwould be pretty embarrassed as a Yankees fan to think that they cheated and still couldn’t win
Then why were they fined?
Because they broke the rules.
Why were the Astros subject to much harsher penalties?
Because they aren’t the Yankees.
Plenty of players used PED prior to Vincent’s letter in 1990 prohibiting PED use.
It’s one thing to do something you feel is wrong vs doing something that is spelled out and deemed illegal by baseball.
What the Yankees did is one thing. What the Astros did was a spit in the face to Baseball who explicitly said STOP.
I’m no apologist for the Yankees, but it’s not the same thing.
Amen Halo, well said.
You actually think Houston was the only team still doing it after Manfred said to stop? Houston was the fall team. Weren’t going to make a blue blood team take the brunt.
JJ, that doesn’t make any sense. Is every murderer is prison?
It’s an illogical argument. You judge based on what you know. I have no idea why people use such a lame argument to dismiss bad behavior.
Not an illogical argument when multiple players have said the same thing. Houston was an easy team make the scapegoat. They weren’t MLB Royalty (like New York, LA, Boston, or Chicago), they had a very unlikeable GM, and an angry former player. Honestly Houston could have very well been any of the other 25 teams.
It is. Excusing bad behavior because others are not caught is a lame argument. If 25 other teams did what the Astros did then I will blast 25 other teams and not excuse any of them.
My mother use to say the same thing about Nixon. She would say “They all do it.” And even as a kid I knew it was a lame response to bad behavior.
Who said I excused anything? You putting words in my mouth. I simply stating they weren’t alone. You know damn well that it was a league wide issue. How many more players need to say the same thing?
Thank God there are those in our world who can see through the BS, Halo. It’s no wonder why you were successful as a businessman.
Yankees cheated much more and for a longer period of time with sign stealing
and prior to that “winning” multiple “tainted” World Series titles with players roided up worse than the Soviet hockey teams.
Why do you let a sports team make you so visibly miserable? Every comment you type is the same spew-age.
Practically every team in the league was cheating to some extent. You have more and more players admitting it now. The league is trying its best to keep it hush hush because it doesn’t want to be embarrassed. They would be better off admitting what was going on and turning the page.
They are too far in now. Can’t admit every team was doing it. But, eventually a player like Bauer will spill the beans on the whole league.
I refuse to believe the Mariners were cheating because that means if they weren’t they sucked at both.
So similar to the yankees. They had a large payroll and a cheating scheme and still couldn’t win a WS.
Hitting a baseball is still the hardest thing to do in sports, regardless of if you know what pitch is coming. Plenty of cheaters never win a thing.
And some cheaters break home run records and steal World Series.
Your moral compass is pointing in the wrong direction.
The Yankees stole 4-5 World Series titles cheating and fielding a team full of roided up players like the old Soviet hockey and weight lifting teams.
Your team ran a drug ring that killed a player. Let’s talk about moral compasses
Why do you think “practically every team in the league” was cheating? There was the punishment that members of the Astros received and the “Yankee Letter”. Seems like there would be more letters or punishment if almost everyone was cheating.
It’s common sense. It is a copycat league. If one team was doing something to gain an advantage they all were. And the fact multiple players keep saying the same thing. It’s only fans and certain media members that fail to realize it was a league wide issue.
There are plenty of articles quoting multiple players that state other teams or that it was a league wide issue. Heres a few examples. Brewers and mets both accused dodgers of cheating. Brewers accused rockies of cheating. Logan Morrison accused dodgers yanks red sox and astros. Dang 3 out of 4 whats the chances the Dodgers cheated? Look up chris Bassett and see his comments on the topic.
Also this makes the most sense when trying to explain why manfred gave immediate immunity to the Astros. I imagine He promised nothing would happen to them but needed them not to start pointing fingers around the league and drawing more attention to it.
And when you have evidence of who and how instead of a typical excuse used by a fourth grader, let me know.
@Puhl
Please post your sources. The article references 3, and only 3 teams. That does not meet the defn of “practically every team”. You may suspect it to be so, but don’t try to pass suspicions off as fact.
It is literally a Google search away for you. There has been at least 6 players stating the Astros weren’t alone. Not our fault you refuse to believe the players.
Yankees’ fans in their glass houses
Who cares the stupid f’n Yankees and the media with their east coast bias. I’m suprise that espn and other media outlets don’t report every time a Yankee or a Red Sox takes a dump. Every time these 2 play each other ESPN has to televise it. No wonder their ratings suck.
The fact that randy levine openly says the unsealing of the letter would cause irreparable harm to the yankees tells me everything i need to know. We were scapegoated and the league will do everything it can to protect its signature franchises. There’s no doubt in my mind the Letter will be watered down and attorney-ed to death before its release anyway.
What the Asterisks did was AFTER the cease and desist order came from the Commish’s office. Big difference dude.
It makes a difference where the severity of the punishment is concerned, but cheating is cheating. At least that’s what folks have been saying since the Astros scandal was brought to light. The Yankees are now in the same boat. They are cheaters….along with almost every club as player after players has now come out and said it was widespread. Time to turn the page.
And you believe that why? Cause Manfred said so? If you trust what anyone in power tells you than I feel bad for you. This country used to tell people cigarettes were safe bro. People in power are the biggest liars on the planet.
So you only believe the Astros cheated in one year, why? Because Manfred said so?
We can ask the same question about the Yankees. You actually believe the Red Sox and your Yankees stopped cheating after receiving the ‘strict’ letter. At the end of the day the Yankees had a scheme and a large payroll AND still were not able to beat the Astros in the 2015 WC game AT Yankee Stadium.
Not exactly one year, but close enough. For one, Beltran came to the Astros in 2017 and showed them what the Yankees were doing. The Astros took that a step further and started banging on trash cans. Those bangs have been analyzed and data shows that the bangs started around May of 2017 and continue until April or May of 2018 and then cease. So people believe it was one year because it has been proven to only be one year.
My point is you can’t argue both sides. You cannot argue (as many Astros fans do) that there’s no “proof” of cheating after 2017, but that “every team was doing it.” You also can’t say “it started with the Yankees” while simultaneously stating we must prove the Astros cheated beyond 2017 for it to be so. Likewise, how do you know the Astros started in 2017? There’s no “proof” as you like to frequently cite.
It’s such an overt bias you can’t be taken seriously. Your not even trying to come across as remotely objective.
But, overall, don’t let any facts detract from your goal of making a statement for the sake of doing so.
There is one issue here regarding the case and desist that nobody is talking about.
It was discovered in the investigation that Luhnow never forwarded the commissioner warning to the coaches or players.
It’s still wrong and as the GM he is part of the team and accountable.
However, to the coaches and players nothing had changed.
So the team is guilty of cheating but none of the current players or coaches are guilty of continuing after being warned.
Exactly Right!!!
MLB will do everything to protect the Yankees, Dodgers and its
marque, profit making machine franchises.
Scapegoating a smaller market team, “white washing” the investigation,
finding a “fall guy team” (Astros)
is standard operating procedure for MLB…
While before it was only speculation, this proves one thing without a shadow of a doubt for me. We now know where Beltran got the idea from. He just took the same scheme they were using in New York and worked the same scheme in Houston except with a trash can.
Exactly.
Yup. Banging the trash can doesn’t break any rules, it’s the using tech to decode signs and most were likely doing it. Astros were unwise to use a method so easily traced back!
So now NYY started the whole idea? That’s a huge jump… how do you knowBeltran didn’t start that even before the Yankees?
It amazes me what a clown show many anti-Yankees are with their postulations.
Lol. So now Beltran brought it to New York, who then took it to Houston?
I didn’t say that, I’m simply saying how quick you are to demand “hard facts” for all things Houston while jumping canyons to establish your opinions about NYY blame. You have no idea when/where it started or who brought it to Houston. Is Beltran unreasonable? No, he’s not. But to say it’s him & it started with NY is a gigantic leap….
I wouldn’t be surprised at all if he was (at least) partly responsible, but they could’ve been already doing it when he got there. You’re writing an assumption they were innocent until he arrived then became the worst violators – it’s a joke.
Astros players have been quoted as saying that Beltran brought it to the organization. Not only that, but the bangs started in May of 2017………which happens to be after Beltran joined the team.
Maybe that is true (about Beltran), my point was you cannot say is “started” with NY. Trash can banging didn’t. How do we know that wasn’t someone other than Beltran that used a system from another team?
If you want to work off assumptions, fine. But those assumptions are equally valid both ways for both teams. Again, you invalidate your own argument by assuming or concluding one opinion, while dismissing others because there’s no “proof.” It’s a faulty premise from which to pose an argument.
My assumption is the Astros cheated in ‘17, ‘18, & ‘19, because many factors point to that. But you’ll say, “there’s no proof.”
I haven’t postulated very much but you do have to agree there have been some pretty big a hole Yankee fans on here. I am not saying all are but many. You know like the guys who have said we have 475 (an exaggeration I know) championships. So you are going to add in the ones that had 6 teams the teams left the gloves on the field because not everyone could afford one and they didn’t bend. I could go on but you get my drift. Not all championships are equal. All teams have stupid fans and you need to wade through them. Anyway it is over Seattle is much improved so I am going to enjoy this season even more than last.
I remember scrolling through comments on Facebook and ESPN the day after the Astros won the 2017 World Series, and I saw people saying things like “The Astros win one world series and they think they can hang with the. boys?” Some of those comments were from Yankees fans. I’m sure Clipper knows full well that there are some awful Yankees fans, like the ones who throw stuff on the field. However, those few don’t represent the majority.
You mean like the Yankees fans that threw the bottles at Cleveland players? Yep. We have them. Unfortunately. I really believe they’re Boston fans posing as Yankee fans to damage our rep though … lol.
No, Boston fans couldn’t be bothered to waste their time to be a-holes
Kind of surprised the Yankees fought the release of the letter to such a degree. Beyond the fine, nothing really new here. Their resistance led many to believe there was more there.
The main reason teams were upset with the Astros wasn’t because they weren’t doing some questionable things themselves, it’s that the other teams stopped when MLB issued its letter. Everyone knew the rules. The Astros continued on, basically doubled down, teams knew it, and they were pissed. It was that arrogance from the Astros. It many ways, it makes it even more galling that none of the Astro players were punished for continuing the cheating, but I understand why it played out that way.
Lol. How many more players need to come out and said Houston wasn’t the only team doing it in 2017?
Rob, it shouldn’t surprise anyone if any team has information come out about using this pre-2017 letter. But, somehow this validates many Astros & anti-Yankees fans that dutifully claim this to be the same thing.
It’s incredible how they defend their team on one hand, while also talking about what’s can or can’t be proven regarding their continued cheating, while also claiming the pre-letter cheating from the Yankees indicates post-letter cheating from the Yankees.
Not to mention many players from that ‘16 team changed after 2016-2017.
I don’t think that letter or email went to players.
RobM: I think the new info here is that the Yankees relayed stolen signs to the dugout phone which is using electronics. When the sign stealing crackdown memo came out in 2017, the Red Sox were the only team known to have used electronics (Apple Watch). The Red Sox were crucified in the media for using the Apple Watch. The Yankees escaped criticism for using electronics and I could see them wanting to hide that they were doing the same thing as the Red Sox. I think the Red Sox using the Apple Watch gave little advantage compared to a person relaying the info as the video room was right next to the dugout. The same was probably true for the Yankees.
It’d be awesome if this got Cashman and/or Boone fired but I’m sure that’s wishful thinking.
Probably get a raise and an extension …
It actually explains Cashman’s decision to move away from Girardi after their 2017 season even though the team was coming together with talent. Remember, Boone wasn’t there yet.
Thank goodness we’ve learned that the difference between right and wrong is only discernible after someone tells you what’s wrong.
Wow.
Where’s Moses when you need him?
This is like second degree murder (Yankees) vs first degree murder (Astros): neither is ok and both are very wrong, but first degree is worse than second degree due to circumstances. That’s similar to how the Yankees technically, for all intents and purposes, stopped when told to. No one is giving the Yankees a pass for what they did because the actions of the Astros being worse doesn’t make what the Yankees did ok. All in all, I think this is bad for baseball around: 1. the Yankees are not to blame for Astros cheating and thumbing their nose at MLB, but this does give some credibility to the notion that Beltran brought the Yankees cheating system to Houston. After all, he played for the Yankees in 2015 and 2016. 2. I’m not saying other teams cheated, but if the Yankees aka MLB’s most historically important and top franchise cheated, who else cheated or will cheat in the future? That’s a scary thought.
I like what you said…
This is not good for baseball at all and, in my opinion, it raises a couple of questions that I know people will ignore: 1. who else would stop low to gain an unfair advantage? 2. What if the idea for such a system was passed around amongst free agents and/or traded players? Now, I’m still an Astros fan so the biased part of me thinks its funny the Astros took what the Yankees tried to do and succeeded. In other words, they did the Yankees better than the Yankees and beat them.
Yes, absolutely. It hurts the game overall. They should’ve clamped down on this immediately. It also begs the question: How many more of these are out there? How many more can/will come to light?
If they would just hand down hard punishments this would be stopped. The letter could have been sent with examples of punishments already handed down and a warning of more severe ones to follow if the rule is violated.
It’s sad, man. And Pete Rose is sitting at home going, “I didn’t even cheat!”
According to an article in USA Today, the Yankees have never stopped cheating. They just use more subtle methods.
The loud whistling of signals by the Yankees playing the Mets was not so sophisticated What was it?! Long loud whistle was for fastball. Shorter whistle was for breaking ball etc..?!!
Your Mom Cheated!
Would it be wrong to say your dad cheated and the lady had a daughter who you married? If it is wrong then forget I posted it. If not are family get togethers awkward? I didn’t mean your dad was your wife’s dad too. Just she had a daughter later. Or did I? Hmmm
I’m not a Yankee fan. I dislike what the Yankees did and I think their punishment should have been more severe. I still think what the Astros did is above and beyond. There are levels of cheating. None of them are great, but sending signs to baserunners is very different from sending signs to every hitter.
The baserunner would then relay the sign to the hitter. That part itself isn’t bad, but the use of tech to decode the sign as part 1 is, in my opinion.
yeah, you guys must know that very well!
I do think there should be higher punishments for this type of cheating. They should’ve addressed this immediately with suspensions if they were serious about stopping it. I get it though, that’s why they sent their letter, but even the post-letter punishments were not that harsh.
Even if these teams were docked draft picks, that’s would’ve hurt them pretty badly too. They handled the whole thing too lightly though, imo.
As I wrote above, it explains why they went to Boone and pivoted away from Girardi after ‘17. But he got another job without anyone knowing – it’s just…dirty.
It could also explain why none of the Astros were suspended.
Manfred’s office made it entirely clear that the reason no Astros were suspended was that they were given immunity in return for agreeing to testify. There’s no question that they cheated. They admitted it. The Commissioner’s office wouldn’t have suspended Luhnow and Hinch, and Crane wouldn’t have fired them, if the players hadn’t admitted to the scheme.
It was the players and some of the coaches Beltran, Cora etc..
None of the players were suspended because MLB AND The Players Association made a deal to scapegoat management and not the players. Management was charged with “failure to supervise properly” not any sign stealing and/or cheating,
Third base coaches send signs to every hitter.
Not after the pitcher has gotten the sign.
cheating is cheating is cheating!
Sign stealing isn’t cheating
The way the Astros, Yankees, and Red Sox did is cheating.
Can’t believe they called the Love Line with the dugout phone.
Nothing to be seen here. Move along.
thank god, the judge didn’t have to kiss junkees’ behind! mlb might as well form a north american super league with yankees, blooded undies and dodgers!
haha remember when Yankees fana said this was nothing?
This is far from nothing, but it’s also not what a lot of us Astros fans hoped it would be. Don’t get me wrong: the Yankees cheated in hindsight. I don’t see any one here on MLBTradeRumors excusing them, but I’ve seen some people excuse them on twitter.
Don’t you guys have the manager (Girardi) from that “cheating team?” Lol.
I don’t even want the man managing this team anyways. Bring it on.
I’m just kidding, man, but it is funny…
Maybe he should start cheating again, because he’s been horrendous.
So the bottom line is this. The New York Yankees were caught cheating. Because they were caught cheating is the reason for the rules and punishments we have seen handed out. For some reason the league thought it was important to attempt to try to keep the fact the Yankees cheated secret, and didn’t explain to anyone that the New York Yankees are the reason for the new rules and punishments. The Yankees wanted the letter sealed, because the cheated, are the reason for the new rules and punishments, and had the balls to play the victim. Here is the most open secret in baseball. The Yankees have been sign stealing for many, many, many years. It is the reason why every catcher in the league for so many years looked like they were playing air drums behind the plate at Yankee stadium. That catcher Varitek used to do tap signs for the Red Sox with no one on, and looked like he was having convulsions with a runner on second.
Its not “all teams” its the Yankees, Astros and Red Sox. Then there’s player acquisition cheating like the Braves did.
I demand everyone peddling this lie “All teams cheat not just my fave one”. Either put up or shut up. Tell us EXACTLY how all 30 teams have cheated, or else its just basically those 3 plus FA signing cheats.
Saying “put up or shut up” completely misses the point.
How many more players need to say it is a league wide issue before you realize it was a league wide issue?
jjd, I think that’s what A’sfan is asking for. Give us all the names, schemes, timetables, etc. for all this rampant cheating. Blanket statements don’t hold water. Back it up, dude!
Told you about the Yankees—dirtiest franchise in MLB history. And the league allowed it unchecked for decades.
Geez- Cashman couldn’t win by cheating either
Now that’s funny… he does kind of suck when you put it that way, lol. It also tells you that cheating doesn’t fix strikeouts!
For all those who want to yell about the Astros, just look at this line from MLB:
“The Yankees did not violate MLB’s rules at the time governing sign stealing.”
And that is how it is different from the Astros and one reason why the punishments were different.
If anyone has any issues understanding it, please try reading it again, aloud this time.
The punishments were right to be different, but the Yankees punishment was too light.
It’s awfully hard to punish someone for breaking a rule that didn’t really exist.
Your logic is the equivalent of a child doing something bad in class, and then saying “Teacher, you never told me not to do”. MLB should’ve punished the Yankees in 2016 as a warning to all the other teams, followed by sending a memo to all teams that using any kind of technology to decode signs is no longer allowed.
Pt.2
Yeah, we can disagree on that. I also don’t like the idea of it. But it’s kind of like the sticky stuff ban. Sure, it’s been accepted, widely used “cheating.”
But the league gave warning, started enforcing it, and punished people who defied the rule after the warning.
Btw, it seems I have found the Astros fan! Good luck 🙂
Yeah no. Though I appreciate you telling me what my “logic” is.
“Btw, it seems I have found the Astros fan! Good luck :)” – I don’t know what you mean by that. What I do know is my point is that something doesn’t have to be against the rules in order to be wrong. Yes, the Yankees effectively got away with it. MLB should’ve cracked down on this as soon as they knew about the Yankees using the replay room. Thanks for replying. Good luck. 🙂
Pt. 2 – I suggest you look up the definition of the word cheating. The Yankees cheated.
The hurt feelings run strong in you. The Astros are cheaters. Not just cheaters though, but really bad cheaters after they were warned not to cheat! Probably among the worst in recent history. Also the most blatant.
They got what they deserved, as we all do.
Wow. The Astros are cheaters?! Who knew!
“MLB should’ve punished the Yankees in 2016 as a warning to all the other teams, followed by sending a memo to all teams that using any kind of technology to decode signs is no longer allowed.”
You’re saying they should’ve first punished the Yankees, and THEN told the league that what they did wasn’t allowed.
That’s not how rules or laws work. The authority can’t say: “What you did wasn’t illegal when you did it, but it should’ve been illegal, so we’re going to punish you for violating a law that didn’t exist at the time.”
Don’t bother with this one.
Entirely lost cause.
“That’s not how rules or laws work. The authority can’t say: “What you did wasn’t illegal when you did it, but it should’ve been illegal, so we’re going to punish you for violating a law that didn’t exist at the time.”” – but what they can say is “Hey, we’ve thought about it and this isn’t good. Starting now, this is no longer allowed and here’s an example of how it will no longer be tolerated”. As for you, Raisinsss, you’re literally took a quote from a past memo and claimed it was from the letter just released today. Try again. Lol.
No, they can’t say that. That’s not how rules or laws work.
They were fined $100K for the thing that WAS illegal at the time: i.e., “the Replay Review Regulations prohibited the use of the replay phone to transmit any information other than whether to challenge a play.”
What they were fined for involved using technology for the purpose of decoding signs, which is what MLB told teams to stop doing in 2017. Do you know how laws are actually made? A bill is drafted from an idea of what shouldn’t be allowed and, to summarize the process, goes through a bunch of hoops and gets an opportunity to become a law. If MLB really wanted to, they could’ve decided that right there and then, using technology to decode signs will longer be tolerated. I admit they can’t punish the Yankees for doing it before it became illegal, but at the time, they absolutely could’ve revealed what they were doing and how teams better knock it off.
The Commissioner’s office did so, right after issuing the fines against the Red Sox and Yankees in 2017:
“All 30 clubs have been notified that future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks,” Manfred said in a statement.
nytimes.com/2017/09/15/sports/baseball/red-sox-fin…
Yep; they basically did what I said they should’ve done, the difference being it happened a year or so later and the Yankees got a slap-on-the-wrist.
No, you’re still trying to fault the league for not finding the Yankees guilty of violating a rule that didn’t exist at the time. It’s clear to me that to discuss this further with you is a waste of time. Have a nice evening anyway.
I’m faulting the league for not punishing them more severely for something they did that involved something that should’ve been illegal sooner. See ya.
The Yankees have been repeatedly caught cheating and much worse than the Astros..
That’s hysterical Fanooo. But, “much worse than the Astros” is a misstatement at best, lying at worst. Also, caught cheating multiple times is awful vague but I’m sure you could use some more opinion to fill that in.
No Just the Facts. The Yankees have mastered the art of cheating from sign stealing for decades to doctored balls, to “roided up” players who “won”
3-4 “tainted” World Series Titles with guys who looked like the Soviet hockey and weight lifting teams, to that short RF porch that no other MLB team was allowed to duplicate for decades..(Ask Charles O Finley) .the list is very long and only partially posted….
They were fined $100K for the thing that WAS illegal at the time: i.e., “the Replay Review Regulations prohibited the use of the replay phone to transmit any information other than whether to challenge a play.”
exactly right.
Now the Yankee fans that post here can offer in trade some old YES video cameras in addition to Miguel Andujar for 2 of your teams best players.
Like I said before the release of the letter, it was stupid of Randy Levine to fight its release. All he accomplished was to make a bigger story out of it and get more attention on it from the press before its inevitable release. And where’s the “irreparable harm” he claimed, now that the letter’s being made public? All it says is that the Yankees’ sign-stealing wasn’t against the rules at the time. Great job, Randy.
He fought the release because the “original letter” was much worse for the Yankees/
The released letter is a “white washed” letter written by lawyers
that “glosses over” and obfuscates the extent, length and severity of Yankees long term cheating..
If you have additional information about the first letter please let us know. The Yankees have been an open secret in MLB about sign stealing for many years, but if what you are saying is true, what was the content of the real letter. Do you have first hand knowledge, etc? How long, what methods?
Having read several of your comments, SportsFan0000, I have to say it appears that you make stuff up.
I’m sorry but the generic nametag of “SportsFan0000” just sounds like the very first Internet Troll off the assembly line… I read his posts as such and it all makes sense.
Oh, no, the Yankees are cheaters? Say it ain’t so! I mean, I know they had guys like Clemens and Pettitte taking steroids back when but stealing signals?? I’m shocked. Sell the team and burn their stadium to the ground.
“I know they had guys like Clemens and Pettitte taking steroids back when”
Back when, there wasn’t a team in Major League Baseball that could claim to have no players on drugs. including yours.
BTW, Pettitte didn’t use steroids. He used HGH. And he used it when pitching for the Astros, too. Roger also pitched for the Astros.
plus, he admitted it, and the only use found was exactly for a legit reason a person would use them (to heal up quicker via cell repair).
might not be a fan of his, but unless it ever comes out he was using it at any point besides while injured, i’m not lumping him in with the other roids guys (like arod, manny, ortiz, etc..).
And just like PEDs there wasn’t a team in baseball that wasn’t doing what Houston was doing.
Cora doesn’t have Covid 19! This is just a cover for being unvaccinated, and not allowed into Canada. The guy just doesn’t know how to be honest!
Wrong:
‘Per the Red Sox, manager Alex Cora tested positive for COVID-19 prior to today’s game. He is fully vaccinated and boosted. Mild symptoms.
‘Cora will not make the upcoming trip to Tampa Bay. Bench coach Will Venable will serve as the manager.’
— Bill Koch (@BillKoch25) April 21, 2022
so, if the government holds on to letters and stuff, does that mean they still have the stuff from the balco trial?
you know, the list of all the failed drugs in 03-04 that ortiz, manny, and over 100 others were on, but mlb said they destroyed the evidence, because reasons?
maybe release it already, let’s confirm who’s on it.
grow the pair the over 100 failed test takers no longer have thanks to roid use.
Like the NFL Commish’s office destroyed the evidence relating the the Patriots multiple cheating scandals and the cheating by Brady?!
Complete Double Standard and Hypocrisy by MLB league office
Headquartered in New York City by the way.
No surprise that the Yankees do not face severe discipline.
Why bite the hand that feeds you?!
Yankees get off virtually scot free for sophisticated sign stealing for perhaps years and years. Online baseball media reports say the Yankees cheating may have been going on for many years (10 or more).
Using the dugout phone, team video etc (even accusations of using their TV network
to facilitate cheating?!
This looks and sounds much worse than a little trash can banging to me and others.
Nothing will be done by MLB.
100K fine is peanuts (cab fare or parking fees) to a team raking in the big bucks in TV revenues.
But, hey, the league has no issues with scapegoating the Astros (who cheated 1-2 years) for a league wide problem stretching back decades?!
Same old “look the other way” treatment of the Yankees
who won 3-4 World Series titles with rosters loaded with illegal roided up players ?!?!?!
So much for league integrity and equal treatment of teams etc..
Eeeeeeasy, big fella!
The Astros weren’t “scapegoated.” MLB was forced to investigate them because Mike Fiers went public about their cheating scheme after he left the team.
BTW, Houston is one of the largest markets in the league. The city is the fourth-largest in the U.S.
The Astros have never been “baseball royalty”.
They are in Texas.
They were an expansion team.
They are treated much differently by the league than the Yankees, Mets, Dodgers etc…
Example: Astros prior owner had some business set backs financially.
MLB forced the Astros into bankruptcy Court and the sale of the team to the present ownership group.
Example: Mets Ownership had major financial setbacks and lost a ton of money to Bernie Madoff.
MLB did not force the team into bankruptcy Court and did not force the Wilpons to sell the team. In both cases the teams were in severe financial jeopardy
The Astros forced to sell.
The Mets allowed by the Commish’s office
to spend payroll like the A’s or Rays and to pocket all the profits and not put the money back into the team for years and years.
That is against the policies, procedures MLB has set up for MLB Ownership.
If the Mets had been located in Texas or KC or Detroit, then the league would have forced the sale of the team under similar circumstances.
Double standard much?!
Similar situation with the Astros and the sign stealing scandal.
L:arge market marque franchises like the Yankees and Red Sox get away with a long time pattern of cheating.
But, if an upstart team not in the “Baseball Royalty”
treatment by the league does something wrong, then they are severely punished, made an example of even for much lesser offenses than the New York and LA teams…
You can’t claim double standards and hypocrisy based on your own fabricated hypothetical scenarios.
That’s actually a little concerning and may hint at some paranoia disorder.
But:
1. Do you understand the irony of citing the Astros’ origination as an expansion team then contrasting them to the Mets?
2. The Mets never spent in the manner of the A’s or Rays. They’ve never regularly sent franchise players packing, and have always had a decent payroll, if not entirely commensurate with their market size.
Facts are facts…Mets did not previously spend to match their #1 Media market status because the owners, apparently, were diverting the profits into their own pockets as even many Mets fans have discussed repeatedly on public forums.(to make up for losses to Madoff).
The Mets owners squandered big money on Bernie Madoff situation because pf their bad business decisions.
MLB has publicly known rules for debt, capital, solvency etc…
Any other MLB Owner with the capital and cash flow problems the Mets Owners had under the declining years of the Wilpon family ownership would not have qualified to own or buy an MLB franchise.
They would have been forced to sell like the Astros were forced to sell,
The rules set out for Ownership were applied unequally to the Astros and not equally to the Mets…
Big difference between an expansion club in NYC and and expansion team in Texas.
MLB is headquartered in NYC.
Mets are headquartered in NYC.
Commish’s office, obviously, made an exception for the Mets.
Those are indisputable facts.
Exceptions also appear to have been made for the NY teams in regards to the breaking of other rules such as cheating in various ways….
If you read the league’s statement about the letter it should help clarify things for you:
“As previously made public in 2017, the New York Yankees were fined for improper use of the dugout phone because the replay review regulations prohibited the use of the replay phone to transmit any information other than whether to change a play. The Yankees did not violate MLB’s rules at the time governing sign stealing.
“At that time, use of the replay room to decode signs was not expressly prohibited by MLB rules as long as the information was not communicated electronically to the dugout. Because rules regarding use of replay had evolved, many clubs moved their video equipment to close proximity to the field, giving personnel the potential ability to quickly relay signs to the field.
“MLB clarified the rules regarding the use of electronic equipment on Sept. 15, 2017. MLB took further action on March 27, 2018, by drawing a clear line and making it explicit to all 30 clubs that any clubhouse or video room equipment could not be used to decode signs and that future violations of electronic sign stealing would be subject to serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks.”
mlb.com/news/mlb-yankees-statements-2017-letter
Fink: Thanks for posting this. Is the dugout phone and phone system electronic equipment? If yes, then the Yankees violated the rules by using the phone system to relay stolen sign info. If not, then they did not. I would say the phone system is electronic and this statement by the league that the Yankees did not violate the rules is inaccurate.
The rule itself clearly makes their action a violation. It isn’t in dispute that the rules in place were violated. I just think it was the first team CAUGHT. I would be surprised if some permutation of the same was either tried or implemented by other clubs over the years. Bullpen sign stealing has been around since the advent of fire. Clever runners on second figuring out signs, or non-clever ones just tipping location was first done by Adam. Using video, phones, etc was the logical next step. Teams had been complaining about Yankee stadium for the better part of 30 years. Some of it I am sure was real, other times paranoia. I don’t think it was paranoia that drove Varitek, and many other catchers to use multiple signs, hand signals and taps to frustrate the sign stealers from relaying to the hitters. Especially when you see that many teams playing in Yankee stadium going so far as to do it with no one on base.
Google it! MLB has been rampant with cheating recently and for a long time.
Here is a link to just one of many, many articles detailing cheating in MLB.
This article lists 17 MLB teams that have been found cheating at one point or another..
thethings.com/houston-astros-and-17-other-teams-th…
The Yankees cheated. They got caught. MLB said, “No more cheating.” They haven’t been caught since. In other words, “Get better at cheating so you don’t get caught, again.” Mission accomplished.
So the Red Sox didn’t?
They did, they violated that new Yankee cheating rule that was implemented by the league. The issue was that nobody was made aware that it was the new Yankee cheating rule, they all thought it was just a new rule.
Never said anything about any other team. I assume the other teams have also been encouraged to get better at cheating. MLB is willing to look the other way until it gets really ridiculous. Cheating, throwing at batters, etc. are all “part of the game” which means punishment is arbitrary and capricious.
Or, as is the proven case with the league, they look the other way and do not
enforce the rules against the Yankees.
Strange accusation to make on an article that is exactly about MLB enforcing rules against the Yankees.
It is actually refreshing to see that nearly no one thinks the Yankees cheating, using methods that were illegal at that time was a nothing burger, like some publications I am seeing are writing it up as. Nothing new to see here, seems to be the marching order. The Astros offense was worse and done after the YANKEES forced the league to implement new rules due to their cheating. What the Astros faced, was fairly steep, and very public. It should be. What the Yankees faced was a cover up. I have no idea what the motivation was for the league to not tell the fans what the Yankees did (BTW, the most open secret in MLB), or it’s incredibly lenient penalty. Sealing the investigation, findings, and penalty was a double standard that is shocking. It should have hurt a bit and been public. I remember the Red Sox a few years back losing draft picks and signings because the league found they had bundled signing. Fine, however the Yankees were doing the same. After what we just found out this begs the question. Were the Yankees ever investigated for the same infractions, if they were, were they punished? I did not read or hear about any punishment, nor did I see them lose draft picks. If they weren’t investigated, why? Is this double standard in place for just the Yankees, or are other teams getting a pass? This is beginning to look like the NBA scandal with the Lakers where a run of exemptions on signings, and trades became too much for the other teams to tolerate. The rules have to apply fairly, and the public airing of infractions must be shared in the same manner. There is not supposed to be a Yankee carve out..
You probably should’ve done some research before investing so much time and effort into posting all that. The Commissioner’s office circulated the warning to other clubs after finding the Red Sox guilty of using an Apple watch to steal signs:
“Taking all of these factors as well as past precedent into account, I have decided to fine the Red Sox an undisclosed amount which in turn will be donated by my office to hurricane relief efforts in Florida. Moreover, all 30 Clubs have been notified that future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks.”
sports.yahoo.com/red-sox-yankees-fined-mlbs-invest…
The Red Sox deliberately got caught on purpose to force MLB to do something. The explanation of how they were “cheating” was so utterly absurd. It would have been impossible to do what they were accused of doing in real time. There had to be multiple communications in rapid succession from someone in the outfield to someone in the dugout to a baserunner to the batter in the space of time between the pitcher nodding at the signal and throwing the pitch. Ridiculous to think that was actually happening. Fact is, it wasn’t. It was a ruse. MLB punished the Red Sox in a completely arbitrary and capricious manner when all they had done was they had called out MLB to punish the Yankees who WERE actually cheating.
Both were Beltran’s baby’s.
Yankee’s ….. This is ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING!!!! Take away ALL the Yankee’s rings!!! Outspend everybody AND you cheat??????????? Disgusting!!!!!
The yankmees would NEVER cheat. This is hogwash!
The biggest news to come from this was that the 100k fine was going toward hurricane Irma relief
Corked Bats, Steroids, Sand Paper, Embery Boards, Pine Tar, Illegal Bats, Sticky substance, Spit, Sign Stealing, Scuffed Baseball, Aggressive Slides, Watering Down Homeplate, Length of Infield Grass, Biased Umpires, Position Allignment, Juiced Baseball, Discrimination, etc. It’s all illegal, cheating, against the Rules. Been going on since first game. It’s the Game people! It’s Baseball!! GET OVER IT ALREADY. Just play the game!!!!
don’t forget the first and third baselines than make balls roll fair or foul
I can’t believe I am saying this… What the Yankees did in the past is old news…. the majority of teams were doing this stuff….move on people, nothing new to see here.
Lets talk about today….. and how the Sox blew another game last night… not looking good so far…. going to be a long season if they can’t figure out what to do with the Bullpen/closer. It should be Whitlock… and why they are using him for a 4 inning starter is beyond stupid.
Also it is time to bring up Casas and Duran…. JBJ is a defensive replacement bench player and Bobby D doesn’t make enough Contact to merit everyday player status.
The Yankees situation is very different from the Astros. I’m a diehard, lifelong Astros fan and I can see that clearly. I truly wish the Astros hadn’t cheated at all because they were good enough to win without it.
There have been many players that have said that the Astros aren’t the only team that cheated both before and after that memo was issued by Manfred. MLB has released some of this info (Yankees, Red Sox), but I have a feeling that it goes further than just 3 teams. Again, just an opinion.
It’s all bad for baseball and has spilled over into the stands and the streets. My wife and I were in Vegas last week on vacation and I was wearing an Astros hat. I received quite a few harsh comments and my reply was always a simple “I didn’t hit the trash can.”
I hope that the cheating stops and hope that all teams, players, cities and fans are able to move past this as some point.
Absolutely ridiculous. Cheating is as old as the game and fans are somehow trying to have this sanitized version of it? No wonder the game is so boring to watch, we’ve removed all the fun from the game and treating players like they are not capable of adjusting to the situations. Oh no! Pitchers are dominating the game so we better lower the mound so that hitters can hit instead of actually making adjustments. Oh no, someone is stealing our signs! Well, we better start using the same signs again and again. To think these are professional players and are so incapable of thinking outside of the box is not even logical. But, I will give MLB credit for adopting Analytics into their game and essentially turning their players into robots.
Until Mike Fiers spilled, it was (I assume) a suspicion.
government overreach by unsealing a private letter
More info in media stories about the Yankees cheating and ability to instantaneously relay the sequence of opposing teams signs to its players on the field in real time.
So Yankees had opposing teams signs and still could not win a World Series with all that info in advance?!
Full disclosure. I am a life long Astros fan.
I also try to be fair and open minded.
My take is that the Astros cheated and deserved what punishment they got.
Other teams cheated and didn’t get punished or were punished less severely.
In a perfect, just world there would be no hypocrisy and no cover ups.
Sucks. Life’s not fair. Move on.
Truth is this was 5 years ago.
Jose Altuve, who is widely supported to have not used the cheating system, is the only veteran hitter left from that team.
Bregman and Gurriel were both rookies. Do you expect them to stand up and stop the veterans when they are the new guys?
Let’s just let it be over with and enjoy baseball in 2022.
Nice post, except for this:
“Jose Altuve, who is widely supported to have not used the cheating system, is the only veteran hitter left from that team.”
This is simply not true. An Astros fan listened to and logged all the trashcan bangs, and “José Altuve had the least among regulars, with only 24 bangs in 866 pitches.”
Twenty-four is still using the trashcan cheating system, even if he used it less.
What’s more, Jose gave absurd, contradictory multiple excuses for why he didn’t want his jersey torn off, some of which excuses were given the lie by his own online posting of shirtless photos of himself on vacation.
And why should we accept the testimony of teammates attempting to exonerate Altuve, teammates like Correa, whom Manfred’s office said was testifying falsely when he said the cheating didn’t extend into the postseason. Correa forfeited his own credibility.
I’ll gladly move on, but I’m not going to accept falsehoods as truths.
Whatever.
So 2.8% of pitches thrown there was a bang on a trashcan. Cool.
Is it possible 24 out of 866 pitches someone banged the trashcan without knowing Altuve didn’t want to hear it? Or somebody simply wasn’t paying attention to who was batting but simply banging on specific pitches regardless?
Now tell me this:
Does a bang mean that Altuve used it? Can he stop someone banging while in the batters box?
There is a difference between actively doing something or using something and simply being someplace when a noise is made.
If you are someplace and overhear some important secret are you at fault for knowing the information?
And Altuve’s jersey in 2019 has nothing to do with 2017.
And I never brought up Carlos Correa, so I don’t know what his credibility or non credibility has to do with this conversation.
“Jose Altuve, who is widely supported to have not used the cheating system”
Supported by whom — his teammates? Astros fans?
I guess that’s the question.
We all have our own opinions. Things mean different things to different people.
None of this has any bearing on 2022 and nothing I say is going to change that.
And nothing will change either of our opinions
So I thank you for your time and insights.
Back at you, Astros fan.
For the record, I’ve forgiven all the Astros players who apologized. If there’s no forgiveness after repentance, we’re lost.
Very noble of you. You have my respect.
So who haven’t you forgiven because every single player apologized.
No, not every player apologized.
si.com/mlb/dodgers/news/josh-reddick-has-no-regret…
For those who still don’t understand, here’s the distinction:
‘That day, Manfred sent a memorandum to all 30 teams warning them about illegal sign-stealing and stating that club management, not players, would be held accountable for any such cheating. In March 2018, M.L.B. sent another memorandum to teams that made clear that replay rooms and video feeds were not allowed to be used for stealing signs during games.
‘(M.L.B. has since taken further steps to try to curb such behavior.)
‘This where the Yankees’ story, though, veers from those of the Astros and the Red Sox.
‘The Astros were found, according to a M.L.B. investigation released in January 2020, to have employed a scheme through the 2017 playoffs and for at least part of the 2018 season that involved using cameras and monitors to decode opposing teams’ signs and tip off Houston’s batters, often by banging on a trash can just outside the dugout.
‘Manfred punished the Astros by issuing one-year suspensions to General Manager Jeff Luhnow and Manager A.J. Hinch, both of whom were subsequently fired by the team owner Jim Crane, and by fining the team $5 million and docking a first- and second-round draft pick in 2020 and 2021.
‘The Red Sox were found, according to a separate M.L.B. investigation released in April 2020, to have used a scheme in 2018 that was more limited in scope than the Astros’ but still involved decoding opponents’ signs while watching live video during games and passing that information along to players.
Manfred punished the Red Sox by issuing one-year suspensions to Manager Alex Cora, who was also part of the 2017 Astros’ scheme, and J.T. Watkins, Boston’s video replay operator. The team also lost its second-round pick in 2020.’
nytimes.com/2022/04/26/sports/baseball/mlb-yankees…
The Yankees’ sign-stealing using a dugout phone occurred before the Memorandum was issued, and they weren’t found to have repeated it afterwards. The Astros and Red Sox both violated the terms of the Memorandum after it was issued.
All three stole signs. The Astros and Red Sox kept it up after being warned.
Fink: I am big on facts and evidence like you and I haven’t seen any evidence anywhere showing that the Red Sox broke any rules after the 2017 sign stealing crackdown memo came out. After investigating the 2018 Red Sox, MLB admitted in their report that they have a “factual dispute” and they “largely do not have direct evidence” of cheating. There was no evidence presented in the report and MLB relied on “inferences” (aka speculation) to conclude the Red Sox cheated. Nothing in The Athletic’s accusation article was confirmed during the investigation. The fact is that not a single instance of cheating could be documented. It was all just speculation to “find” that the Red Sox cheated “on at least some occasions”….even though they couldn’t document a single occasion. I can only guess that MLB based their conclusion on inferences instead of actual evidence in an attempt to not look dumb for having opened the investigation.
‘The baseball inquiry began about two weeks ago, after the Yankees’ general manager, Brian Cashman, filed a detailed complaint with the commissioner’s office that included video the Yankees shot of the Red Sox dugout during a three-game series between the two teams in Boston last month.
‘The Yankees, who had long been suspicious of the Red Sox’ stealing catchers’ signs in Fenway Park, contended the video showed a member of the Red Sox training staff looking at his Apple Watch in the dugout. The trainer then relayed a message to other players in the dugout, who, in turn, would signal teammates on the field about the type of pitch that was about to be thrown, according to the people familiar with the case.
‘Baseball investigators corroborated the Yankees’ claims based on video the commissioner’s office uses for instant replay and broadcasts, the people said. The commissioner’s office then confronted the Red Sox, who admitted that their trainers had received signals from video replay personnel and then relayed that information to Red Sox players — an operation that had been in place for at least several weeks.’
nytimes.com/2017/09/05/sports/baseball/boston-red-…
Fink: Thanks. That is a good bit of history which is all from before the 2017 sign stealing crackdown memo from MLB which was the warning from MLB. There was evidence of the Red Sox breaking rules before the memo. I don’t dispute that. I am saying that I have not seen any evidence of the Red Sox breaking rules after MLB’s warning memo and that MLB’s investigation of the 2018 Red Sox did not produce any evidence. I was shocked to read in MLB’s report on their investigation of the 2018 Red Sox that they did not have evidence and based their conclusion on inferences (as I discussed above) which they fully admit in their report.
So the Yankees are guilty of what Houston and Boston did in 2018 of abusing the use of the replay facility to help runners communicate signs when they were on second base.
The fines were levied on the team caught so end of story since the situation has been that allowed it to happen has been fixed.
From a size of infraction standpoint we’ll call this a misdemeanor. Punishment is some fines and that seems fair and based on games impacted the steroid usage by players in organizations that were condoning it in the 1990s should have been fined too since again the number of games impacted were comparable. and insignificant.
2017 – Is not similar. It’s a Felony what Houston did since in impacted the outcome of up to 90 games. That’s 85 more than the worst scandal in baseball history!!
Cora, Hinch and Beltran should be out of baseball for what they did but instead two of the three have MLB managerial jobs after 60 game suspensions. That second worst scandal ever? The guilty got banishment from the game for doing something 18 times less offensive with regard to changing the outcome of games.
Does that make sense in any context? NOPE.
And the players? Immunity from prosecution so they turn in their bosses. Watch any of the TV series where the government gives a known killer immunity so they can get his boss who is a terrorist and put him in prison for life.
The players got immunity so the manager and coaches could be banned for 60 games, 30 less than the amount they potentially impacted. Players take steroids which don’t change their performance or impact games and they are banned for 50 games and more if they break the rule multiple times.
I find this to be an odd weighting scale for punishment. I thought the integrity of the game was about not changing outcomes but apparently baseball sees stats as the most important thing to protect not outcomes from games. That makes no sense to me. Now they have gotten in bed with gambling. Does the direction of baseball make sense? It doesn’t to me.
From inside baseball the players, coaches, front offices and owners are happy for the leniency because who knows which one of them will caught on whatever else is going on and covered up by the MLB family.
So fans from Boston, Houston and Los Angeles who were impacted in the post season by the players and coaches and manager’s behavior, I say you have a right to be mad for many years to come since the felons were not truly prosecuted.
Remember, this was a felony due to games potentially impacted. The Yankee, Red Sox and Houston replay room issue was nowhere near as severe AND it was far more like steroids in that everyone was doing it and only 3 got caught. And like steroids, there is no evidence that it impacted outcomes of games or even home run totals.
Your post states that steroid use did not impact games. And you state it as if it were fact.
Your post also assumes that the Yankees only had this system and used it in games they were caught.
That’s your rationale for this being a “misdemeanor ” and the Astros transgressions being a “felony” correct? Because it impacted fewer games.
Astrosfn1979 – Yes. The degree of the infraction makes it a misdemeanor. If you are suggesting that the Yankees did this for many years and it impacted many more games then simply state that. I’ve read nothing that suggests that’s true but I am open minded to new information.
As far as steroids go, there is no data to link steroids to HRs. In fact the data suggests there is no impact. As steroid growth progressed from the 1970s or earlier nothing ever came up about the impact of steroids until in 1995 wjem the commissioner or powers that be consciously chose to bring back the game of baseball after the strike year by using the baseball accidentally used in 1987 when HRs jumped 26%. The JUICED BALL era not the steroid era should have been the appropriate name used for that era.
If Steroid use was significant for 20 years and nobody noticed then the ball significantly changes and suddenly steroids are effective? That makes no sense. I tracked the juice in the ball back to 1871 and can show you that the 1870s home run pattern, the 1920s home run patterns and the 1990s home run patterns were comparable. If steroids impacted the 1990s the HR pattern should have shown a growth not seen prior to then and it didn’t. The baseball, however, has had four dramatic changes since 1871 in the 1920s when the live ball era started, the 1950s when the post WWII ball was introduced, in 1995 when the Selig ball was introduced and again in 2015 when a far more alive ball was introduced. The jump in the 1920s was dramatic but the jump in the 1950s was by far the greatest because HRs jumped by 50%, the 90s HR jump was about 25% and the 2015 jump was about 25%.
Cheating with regard to knowing pitches had a far greater impact than steroids because the numbers show there was no impact from steroids or lets call it negligible since steroid use grew while home runs rose and fell based on the juice in the ball.
If you played baseball you know if a pitcher tells you he’s throwing you a fast ball or a curve it improves your chances for a hit significantly. When a player HAS TO BE on 2B to relay a signal decoded from the replay room it is a very specific situation when that works and many parties need to be on the same page. When a person in the stands watches the catcher and has a decoder that they use immediately to send to the dugout to have a can banged, the impact is on nearly every pitch not a few pitches a game as is the case of the replay room situation. Thus, the game impact is far, far less. That’s all I’m saying.
The 1919 CWS threw 5 games in the world series and lost. The 2017 Astros had the system in place to pass along all the pitches in every home game. They played 90 games at home counting the post season.
If you think that’s not a significantly larger advantage than the few pitches a game from the replay room then I don’t know what to say. To me, every pitch versus a few pitches significantly increases the chances of the outcome of the game to change. But to each his own. If you are an Astor fan I can understand why you want to rationalize that there was no difference but factually it was an enormous difference that deserved not just life time bans for Cora, Hinch and Beltran but the players that were documented as participants should have gotten no less than a 50 game suspension like they took PEDs which is an infraction of the rules but has a minimal impact on the outcome of games compared to the sign stealing.
I appreciate your detail.
I would say that I think it’s naive to think that ANY team’s cheating is limited to the times they were caught.
I also believe that intent is just as important as results.
If a person has the lack of character to cheat, whether it helps or not makes no difference.
Therefore, to me your argument that steroids didn’t help is immaterial. Whether I believed it or not..
And I’m not knowledgeable enough to dispute you.
Astrosfn1979 – You hit on a really important point. Does intent matter or is intent the only thing that matters? Also, are there degrees of cheating and if so should the punishment fit the degree of the crime. How do you define the degree of the crime.
Baseball has a very inconsistent history when it comes to what is ok and what is not. Also, who does it matters in baseball much like in corrupt cities where politics impact who goes to jail.
Cheating needs to be defined as well. Some bad assumptions were made in the 1990s about steroids and due to the ignorance of the decision makers and the public uproar over records being broken the steroid crime was completely misinterpreted. Fay Vincent wanted to ban steroids for their impact on the health of those taking them. It was never about records, it was a health risk. That’s why they were clustered with other dangerous drugs like cocaine, lsd, marijuana, hash and others
Once the track world labeled steroids as “performance enhancing” they gave them a negative connotation. When players took them in the 1970s they did it to build body mass faster. Being bigger, stronger and faster was something all athletes aspired to so they could be the best they could be but there were no short-cuts. They still had to lift weights but the growth happened faster. And here is the utmost important point:
If steroids had no negative impact on those taking them they would NEVER have been banned. Why? Because they follow the training ideology for improving in sports. Given a safe substance that was available to all athletes, steroids could have been an enhanced training system and wouldn’t have been associated with cheating. We allow players to have lasik eye surgery to improve their eyesight because there are no negative side effects from it. To be consistent, MLB should ban that too. After all, it’s a performance enhancer. And that’s my point!! Performance enhancing techniques, substances and procedures should be allowed if they can be made available to all athletes and they are safe.
So, is it cheating to find ways to improve your strength, stamina and recovery time? Personally, I don’t think so as long as it’s available to everyone, safe and not against the rules. Steroids were banned in 2004 officially so users prior to that time were not cheating according to the rules.
Thus the use of steroids is very different than a Manager, two coaches and most of a team using an illegal system to create a huge hitting advantage over their opponents. This is the most egregious cheating that has ever happened. Vacating their championship would have been a great first step to righting a huge wrong. Lifetime bans for Cora, Hinch and Beltran should have been assumed and implemented. The players involved, if it’s not the entire team should have all gotten not less than 50 day suspensions. That would have left the Houston Astro franchise devastated as they should have been. It wasn’t anything they couldn’t come back from but the message to all would have been much clearer. Cheating is cheating and deserves a 50 games suspension for the first offense. Then, a second offense punishment needs to be decided. I for one would like them banned from the game on the second incident. That would have ensured Cora would have gotten his fair punishment rather than a 60 day slap on the hand.
Your comment really hit home. Nice job.
You know why they aren’t out of baseball? It was because every team in the league was doing it
jjdoo2 – You might be right but Bonds got booted and nearly all players were on steroids in the 90s. In fact, they were prevalent in the 70s. The commissioner was willing to take exception to your logic with regard to steroids.
That’s why not following precedent is so aggravating!!! The commissioner now can assign any penalty to anything regardless of precedent. Based on that I think the commissioner should have been removed from his position. Selig should have been disgraced by his steroid actions and Manfred should have been fired too for his mishandling of the cheating scandal..
Everyone cheats a little. Not everyone is dumb enough to get caught. Do better, Yankees.
Here are the allegations of Yankees players telegraphing pitches by loud whistling
(by the Mets).
Then Lindor hits a booming home run and he runs by the Yankees dugout and lets out some loud whistling…benches clear.
Yankees were in a losing streak and the cheating wasn’t helping.
Former Yankees players say the Yankees have never stopped the cheating.
..
. There is a multi-year history of MLB downplaying cheating accusations against the Yankees. When The Athletic broke the story about the Red Sox using their video room to steal signs in 2018, there was also the nugget about the Yankees using the “video replay room to learn other teams’ sign sequences,” according to sources.
The Red Sox wound up being investigated, while the Yankees weren’t. In 2017, MLB issued fines to both the Red Sox and Yankees about using electronics to steal signs.
Yankees whistling; a breakdown..
Extended whistling- fastball
Single whistle- offspeed
audacy.com/weei/sports/red-sox/mlb-keeps-sweeping-…
Here are the allegations of Yankees players telegraphing pitches by loud whistling
(by the Mets).
Then Lindor hits a booming home run and he runs by the Yankees dugout and lets out some loud whistling…benches clear.
Yankees were in a losing streak and the cheating wasn’t helping.
Former Yankees players say the Yankees have never stopped the cheating.
..
. There is a multi-year history of MLB downplaying cheating accusations against the Yankees. When The Athletic broke the story about the Red Sox using their video room to steal signs in 2018, there was also the nugget about the Yankees using the “video replay room to learn other teams’ sign sequences,” according to sources.
The Red Sox wound up being investigated, while the Yankees weren’t. In 2017, MLB issued fines to both the Red Sox and Yankees about using electronics to steal signs.
audacy.com/weei/sports/red-sox/mlb-keeps-sweeping-…
Yankees whistling; a breakdown..
Extended whistling- fastball
Single whistle- offspeed
Former player accused Yankees and Dodgers of cheating.
No extensive investigation.by MLB.
No severe punishment by MLB.
Double Standard
elitesportsny.com/2020/01/16/mlb-hypocrisy-failing…
Pitchcom has some bugs to be worked out of it but when it works seems to be great. It should end any chance of stealing signs and from what I’ve seen when working properly it speeds up the game.
It does seem to work very well. What bugs are you aware of?
Mark Teixiera admitted the Yankees used video to get signs and pitch sequences but nvr in real time. Idk y the Yankees went so hard to hide something that was already out there.
The actual 2017 letter from Rob Manfred to Brian Cashman can be downloaded from this article:
nytimes.com/2022/04/26/sports/baseball/mlb-yankees…
From the 2017 letter:
“Based on the information we received, I have concluded that the Red Sox violated On- Field Regulation 1-2.A by using electronic equipment for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a Club an advantage I will address this violation of the On-Field Regulations directly with the Red Sox.”
“During our investigation into the Red Sox’s misconduct, _________ informed the Department of Investigations that the Yankees used a similar scheme to that of the Red Sox to decode opposing Clubs signs and relay them to the batter when a
runner was on second base. _________ who
initially noticed that the Red Sox were using a smart watch to pass information to their players admitted to the Department of Investigations that during the 2015 season and the first half of the 2016 season, provided information about opposing signs to players and members of the coaching staff in the replay room at Yankee Stadium, who then physically relayed the informationto the Yankees dugout. __________ also admitted that during that same time period, in certain stadiums on the road where the video room was not proximate to the dugout, _________ used the phone line in the replay room to orally provide real-time information about opposing Club’s signs to Yankee coaches on the bench.”
“The Yankees use of the dugout phone to relay information about an opposing signs during the 2015 season, and part of the 2016 season, constitutes a material violation of the Replay Review Regulations. By using the phone in the video review room to instantaneously transmit information regarding signs to the dugout in violation of the Regulations, the Yankees were able to provide real-time information to their players regarding an opposing Club’s sign sequence the same objective of the Red Sox’s scheme that was the subject of the Yankees complaint.”
So, in 2017….
1. Manfred found the Red Sox guilty of “using electronic equipment for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a Club an advantage” because they used an Apple Watch to relay stolen sign info.
2. The Yankees used the stadium phone system for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a Club an advantage, BUT Manfred only found the Yankees guilty of misusing the dugout phone….a different rule. This is outrageous unless a stadium phone system is somehow not electronic. The Yankees did the same thing as the Red Sox.
Manfred clearly protected the Yankees in 2017 and all statements by MLB and the Yankees saying that the Yankees did not violate any sign stealing rules in place at the time are FALSE.
Those are my conclusions after reading the actual letter. As always, read and decide for yourself.
It supports my previous statements that MLB gives the Yankees “special treatment” and has done that for a long, long time on various issues…
Why the coverup by MLB?!
Why not an extensive investigation of the Yankees with all the details made public?!
And, the Yankees sue to block the release of the letter and the report?!
Why would the Yankees spend so much time and money in Court to blcck
the letter and the report?!
Because it would expose the preferential treatment given the Yankees
and the lax and/or non investigation of the Yankees as compared to other teams?!
Ok I don’t see why this is so hard to understand but let’s give this a go … The Yankees were caught stealing signs and the height of the sign stealing era BEFORE MLB sent new rules out. The Red Sox and Astros were caught AFTER the new rules came out. The Yankees were not given a free pass. The offense of rule breaking was not the same. They cannot be compared just because you hate the Yankees sorry. This is such a non story. Move on
… and the century’s champions stealing sign winner are…… The Red Sox (clap, clap, clap)…