TODAY: The league and the MLBPA have scheduled a meeting for tomorrow, according to Ken Rosenthal (Twitter links). The union will be presenting responses, in writing, to the league’s last proposals.
MARCH 4, 8:55 pm: Jeff Passan of ESPN writes that the union’s “ghost win” proposal would actually function as akin to starting a three-game series up 1-0. Under that scenario, the division winner would only need to win one game to move on to the Division Series, while the Wild Card club would need to win two straight games.
4:58 pm: In an effort to finalize a new collective bargaining agreement before the league’s imposed deadline to avoid regular season game cancelations, MLB and the Players Association reportedly agreed to move forward with the framework for a 12-team postseason field. With that deadline having passed with no overarching agreement and the league having since scrapped the first two regular season series, the union is apparently willing to reconsider a more expansive field.
Buster Olney of ESPN reports (Twitter link) that the MLBPA has informed the league it’s amenable to reopening talks on a possible 14-team playoff. That has been an important initiative of MLB’s throughout negotiations, with a broader field giving the league more postseason games it can sell to television providers. Andrew Marchand of the New York Post reported this week that a 14-team playoff would see MLB recoup an extra $100MM annually as part of its broadcasting agreement with ESPN.
That makes the 14-team playoff an enticing carrot for the league, one the union would no doubt make contingent on movement from MLB in other key areas. Where to set the competitive balance tax thresholds has been perhaps the biggest sticking point in negotiations. The league is reluctant to go beyond a $220MM base tax marker next season, while the union’s latest offer included a $238MM CBT base. That $18MM gap would only widen over the course of the potential agreement, with the MLBPA seeking more rapid increases in future seasons than the league has proposed. The parties also disagree on the amount of money that should go towards the pre-arbitration bonus pool and the league minimum salary, among other issues.
Reopening talks on the 14-team playoff could serve to kickstart talks as the parties regroup following MLB’s game cancelations. However, it’s worth noting that the 12-team postseason framework already marked a notable concession by the union. The status quo, of course, had been a 10-team field. Merely agreeing to bump from 10 to 12 teams created the possibility for extra playoff rounds and a corresponding windfall for the league. Marchand reported that a 12-team format would itself have led to around $85MM per season in extra revenue for MLB, again per the terms of the league’s broadcasting agreement with ESPN.
Approximately $85MM per season isn’t $100MM per season, though, so it’s little surprise the league had sought a 14-team playoff for most of negotiations. The union has maintained that it’d prefer a 12-team field. The MLBPA has expressed concerns that allowing 14 teams in would disincentivize clubs from ardently upgrading their rosters. The MLB postseason is more variable than those of other leagues — the playoff team with the worst regular season record won the World Series just last season, as an example — and the union fears those fluctuations could allow teams with already-strong rosters to be content not to push hard for further upgrades. That could have a trickle-down effect of limiting teams’ urgency to spend in free agency, a behavior the MLBPA wants to avoid.
The previous 10-team format offered a powerful incentive for clubs to try to win their division. Wild Card qualifiers were tossed into a one-game playoff, leaving little more than a 50-50 shot for any Wild Card team to advance to the Division Series. MLB’s proposed 14-team playoff setup would offer a first-round bye to the team with the best record in both the AL and NL (as in the case with the NFL’s system). However, the relatively minor favors for the other two division winners over the four Wild Card qualifiers — the division winners would get home field advantage and have the right to choose their first round opponents from among the bottom three Wild Card teams — weren’t significant enough needle-movers, in the players’ eyes.
Max Scherzer, a member of the union’s executive subcommittee, expressed reservations with that setup earlier this week. “It really came down to a format issue,” he told reporters (including Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch). “In a 14-team playoff structure we felt that competition could be eroded in that area. … (When one team gets a bye), solely home-field advantage was not going to be the advantage to go out and win the division.”
Scherzer’s comments leave open the possibility for alterations to the league’s playoff format that could still see 14 clubs qualify. During earlier stages of negotiations, the union floated the concept of a “ghost win” for the first round. Under that system, the two division winners per league that did not receive a bye would automatically get the equivalent of a 1-0 advantage in a best-of-five series against the bottom two Wild Card qualifiers. Thus, the division winner would only need to win two out of a potential four games to advance to the second round; the Wild Card club would need to win three out of four to move on. The top two Wild Card teams in each league, meanwhile, would face one another in a standard best-of-three set (via Ken Rosenthal of the Athletic).
There’s no indication the league was on-board with the “ghost win” idea, but it highlights the possibilities for the sides to find a mutually-agreeable solution in this area. The MLBPA would likely prefer a standard 12-team playoff group, but agreeing to 14 teams seems to be the best way to get the league to move on other issues the union considers important. It stands to reason the MLBPA will push for strong bonuses (like the “ghost win” concept) for division winners as the parties reengage on the 14-team postseason.
That might reinvigorate talks between MLB and the union, but the league’s call to cancel regular season games now looms over all discussions. Rosenthal tweeted this morning that the MLBPA is preparing a response to the league’s final pre-cancelation offer, which the union rejected on Tuesday to end a stretch of nine consecutive days of negotiation in Jupiter, Florida. The parties are expected to schedule their next talks fairly soon, but they’ll face a whole host of new challenges whenever they do meet again.
Commissioner Rob Manfred is on record as saying the league is of the opinion that players shouldn’t be compensated for lost regular season games. MLB has been adamant those games are officially canceled and won’t be made up. Union lead negotiator Bruce Meyer has unsurprisingly argued that the MLBPA will pursue compensation for salary lost to game cancelations. As MLBTR’s Steve Adams wrote yesterday, the union figures to take an especially hard-line approach to making sure players aren’t forfeiting service days as a result of the lockout. The MLBPA has also previously indicated they’d refuse to expand the playoff field in 2022 if the league cancels games and strips players of any salary (as it since has). That all sets up even more difficulties for leadership on both sides to work through, but the hope is that the union’s willingness to reconsider a 14-team postseason could be a catalyst for progress on those issues.
Say it ain’t so!!! 14 of 30 teams make the playoffs!!! (3 mind blowing emojis)
This is a clear sign the players are getting desperate. Going from 12 to 14 was supposed to be in their back pocket until at least the next CBA, and now they are willing to give it up just like that? An immediate 40% increase in postseason teams without any league expansion?
There’s pretty much nothing else the owners want from the players right now, and yet the players are willing to fork it over?
Players are showing their weakness, owners are gonna come out as big winners. They will get everything they want including no April games.
Thoughts and prayers for a speedy recovery
“The union will be presenting responses, in writing, to the league’s last proposals.”
Just “responses?” Does that mean counteroffer? Why don’t they finally just make an actual counteroffer so we can get this thing moving along? If all they are doing is providing written “responses” explaining why they turned the league’s offer down instead of making a legitimate counteroffer this is going to take a lot longer than it needs to. It sounds like they are just going to tell the league things they don’t like. That’s not nearly as productive as a counteroffer. The league definitely took way too long to do this and the timing is almost entirely the league’s fault but now it seems the players are also taking their sweet time with everything. The league’s last proposal came almost a week ago and it’s taken the union that long to just come up with “written responses” and still no counteroffer? This is what Manfred was talking about when he said “the league has made the last offer in every meeting we have had.” The ball is in the union’s court and has been for almost a week. But still no counteroffer. Written responses? I know people who write calculus text books for graduate students faster than this. I’m hoping “written responses” was just a poorly worded phrase for counteroffer. Otherwise, a lot more regular season games are going to be cancelled again very soon.
Hammer — I think “responses” is just another way of saying “counter proposals.”
Pete- I hope you’re right. They had a meeting on Thursday that got nowhere. I don’t even know what to expect anymore. I optimistically hoping you are right. I’m used to going back and forth between the civil system and the criminal system. Bearaucracy let’s them take forever some times. Let’s hope I’m looking too much into it.
Fever, did you read the piece? They haven’t agreed to anything yet they are reconsidering it and won’t agree to it unless MLB concedes in other areas.
But what brought them to this epiphany? They’ve had 3 months to offer up the 14-team playoff. More on this later.
vt – Yes I read the whole thing, not sure what’s your point?
My points are:
1) I can’t stand the idea of nearly half the teams making the postseason.
2) MLB’s desire to immediately increase the postseason participation by 40% and their need to get MLBPA’s approval is pretty much the only leverage the MLBPA has over the owners.
The players already conceded from 10 to 12. To now say “Sure, we’ll concede even more” is a sign of weakness. You mean to tell me they have no other way to make progress in negotiations? And what about 5 years from now when the next CBA expires? MLB will probably not want to pursue expansion beyond 14, which means the MLBPA has no bargaining chip saved for next time. It just reeks of desperation, and is further indication the MLBPA is getting out-negotiated.
Joe – It’s just laziness on the union’s part, they’re incapable of getting anywhere without pulling out the one thing that had been earmarked for future CBA negotiations.
It’s like local governments who can’t figure out how to balance the budget, so they simply decide to raise taxes and fees. The easiest, laziest approach with total disregard for how it will impact the future.
MLBPA was always bluffing about 14-team playoffs and their bluff got called. So now they are crawling on their bellies to MLB to try to get a fast deal because players are losing money, the union is losing money, and pretty soon a lot of players will be losing service.
Personally, much as I like baseball I like watching the MLBPA Clown Show do the Humiliation Dance. Could watch it all season.
It’s a clear sign that neither sign gives two craps about the fans. All the polls are against such a move, and yet they go for it anyway. I don’t believe they’re this tone deaf, so the only conclusion is they don’t respect the fans at all.
padre – I completely agree. When it comes to MLB, it’s never about the fans. It’s always about one thing – mo money. They are watering down their own product and turning off fans just for the instant gratification of postseason television revenue.
And before you know it, players will start looking like Nascar drivers with advertisements all over their MLB uniforms.
Will you and everyone stop talking about how they don’t care about the fans. I’ve been hearing that for decades now. What are you 10?
Yes, THEY DON’T CARE ABOUT FANS!
Neither does the NFL, NBA, NHL, the Olympics. And when it comes down to it, neither do YOU!
Of course I don’t care about the fans personally, but the fans are the ones that make the game viable, so I care about what they want. MLB should do so too if they know what is good for them. Fans are the purchasers of the product. To consistently ignore them is stupid. And for you to think it doesn’t matter what the fans think is idiotic too.
What’s idiotic is your naivety in this world where every business is all about money. They don’t care about fans and never have. They care about the money that fans own. To think otherwise is unbridled stupidity.
FSF, slow down and read what they guy just wrote. He basically said what you are saying just in a different way. Fans=money, owners care about money therefore owners should care about fans. Without the fans the money will dry up. Personally, I don’t see the fans ever leaving en masse but, a slow trickle? With the way shitbird manfred operates and his lack of vision for the game? It’s inevitable.
Yes, we all understand that. It’s beyond a trite phrase though especially in light of the fact that such comments presume that it is some sort of epiphany for the players or the owners. They ALL get what you are saying, and still don’t care because they’re obviously of the opinion that the fans aren’t going anywhere in the foreseeable future. For my part, I would love for you and your buddy to prove MLB wrong but the results would take years and more like decades to play out.
No way will 14 playoff teams work. I don’t mind 12. I assume the the 2 division winners with best record get a bye. The 3rd division winner plays vs the 6th seed,and 4 vs 5. This set up just like the old NFL playoff. The first round must be a best of 3. The second is the question. Will the 2nd rd be a best of 5? Or 7? Or is the wild card round a 1 game winner take all? If so, then rounds 2 (divisional rd) and the 3rd round (Alcs) is best of 5? I’m asking
The players have treated this whole bargaining like a begging session and not a negotiation. Truly sad. Suck it up and publicly declare that you will not play the 2022 season for anything less than full pay.
No play=NO pay.
12 is the number not 14
8-10 was the number as far as I’m concerned.
Don’t do it boys. You said if any games were cancelled no expanded playoffs. Stick to your guns.
Birdie – I’m 100% with you. How is MLB supposed to take anything the MLBPA says seriously when what they say turns out to be total crap?
MLBPA has lost credibility by giving up their leverage on expanded playoffs.
I’m with you 100%. I want to watch MLBPA sit and beg all summer. Stick to your ‘guns’, popguns though they may be.
Almost half of the teams getting into the playoffs is absurd. I can tell you right now which teams are in the top half of the league. Why even have a season, just start the playoffs right away. As a season ticket holder this will be my last season, why bother going to regular season games, that are becoming meaningless. Baseball is being ruined by greed.
All division winners need a bye. That will give the regular season value and and teams incentive to spend. Ghost win could provide this but sounds gimmicky. Wild cards can play a 1 game then the remaining 2 play a 3 game series.
The old system should have been changed long ago. Should have always been 3 game wild card and 7 game divisional.
I agree. 14 actually makes more sense than 12 if the 6 division winners go straight to the DS. Let the other 8 play a mini one game play in tournament to get the last 2 DS spots. If the owners need to sell more content than that, make the DSs 7 game series. A system like that can protect the integrity of 162, give more markets hope for a post season run which will increase the value of September games you can sell in your national broadcast deals, provide a few games more content in the post season, and not get overly long. I don’t want to watch important baseball in the snow. They’re supposed to be the “boys of summer”.
If you followed baseball at all you’d know division winners already get a bye. Right now only wildcard teams play in the first round of the postseason. Total ignorance.
@Remove: I think you are being a little harsh on him for calling “total ignorance.” You are talking about a 10 team playoff system and that’s not an option anymore. He was comparing the potential 12 teams vs. 14 teams. If you are talking to the other guy that’s still a little harsh, too. Technically the division winners get a bye already but that’s only because the 2 wildcard winners only play a one game playoff. That’s nothing. That’s not even really a bye because they just schedule the 1 game to squeeze it in there with the knowledge that they don’t have to worry about the series lasting longer. It’s 1 extra off day at best for division winners and maybe not even that. I would hardly call one game a “first round bye” for anyone. They just added one more game and squeezed it into the schedule. For the record I am against bye rounds in baseball because I don’t think they are as good for baseball teams as they are for football teams. I think baseball teams have a much better chance of losing momentum or getting rusty by taking an entire series off. I still think you were a little harsh by saying “total ignorance” though. The 10 team playoff system is no longer an option and I would hardly call skipping an entire playoff round that lasts all of 4 hours worthy of being considered anywhere near as beneficial as a typical “first round bye.” Based on what happened with the Dodgers last year it looks like they just force the wild card team’s to play a game during what would have been an off day for the division winners anyway. Kinda rude, bro.
Confirming this whole lockout was about money and not “competition” or the “good of the game”…Not that anybody with commmon sense thought otherwise.
Without a real commissioner, nothing is “for the good of the game”.
You’d think as a requirement for maintaining their anti-trust exemption, they’d have to be governed by a truly independent commissioner. Not some puppet commissioner who is a total shill for the owners.
@prospectnvstr- Yes, definitely the dumbest thing ever, 14 teams out of 30 making the playoffs. I’m ok with the division winners and the 2 wild card teams making the playoffs. Let’s just leave it alone people.
I want a higher CBT, and don’t care so much about the pre arbitration bonus pool or wherever they come down in that 700 to 725K minimum salary.
But do they really have to dilute the regular season and the playoffs so much?
Maybe the owners say that it’s not worth an extra $15 million, plus whatever increased gate that they get from having six teams in each league instead of seven in the playoffs. I suspect though, that’s it’s about having a better shot at the playoffs for more than a few of the cheap owners who want to go 82-80 and play in October.
$100 million for 14 teams
$85 million for 12 teams per estimate
$15 million difference divided by 30 teams = $ 500K each per team per season. Seems like not a lot by itself.
I feel the luxury tax should be set at $275-280 for the next 3 years. These owners need to be forced to spend more on their ball clubs to become more competitive. If they don’t, these clubs need to be relocated. There are other cities that would love to have their own ball club and would fill up the stadiums to make that happen. A salary cap is not needed in baseball, especially if these owners spent more $ on their ball club, which their fans deserve.
As if it wasn’t bad enough that last season ELEVEN teams were better than the Braves. 88 wins to be in the playoffs. Pathetic!
Prospectnvstr — Why bother to play 162 games? What a joke. The owners are squeezing the game into mediocrity. I wish the players would hold out on this one.
@Pete’sView
Which team do you root for?
Giants #1, Mets & Tigers #2, but I watch a lot of teams, and like some of them too.
@Pete’sView
You are a hypocrite. Your 2014 Giants won the World Series with 88 wins. They were a Wild Card. At least the Braves won their division.
@Pete’sView
Also, the 2012 Tigers reached the World Series with 88 wins while the 1973 Mets reached the World Series with 82 wins. The 2015 Mets reached the World Series with only 90 wins. None of these teams won it all but they all won the pennant and they all cement your hypocrisy even more.
@Pete’sView
Teams also don’t play balanced schedules so you can’t say that a team with two more wins in a completely different division or even the other league is more deserving of a postseason spot.
48-team MLB — No. I’ll stick with my statement. I loved watching my Giants win in 2014, but that doesn’t mean I thought they were the best team in MLB. There were 9 other teams equal or better.
But to be clear, that year there were only 4 teams who were considerably better by record than the Giants (Orioles, Angels, Nats & Dodgers).
By the same comparison, in 2021, there were 9 teams who were considerably better by winning record. But those 9 teams were MUCH better than the Braves.
I’m not taking anything away from the 2021 Braves. I’m just saying that I think watered down playoffs will be the ruin of the game and that there should be a benchmark number of wins for a team to even be playing for the World Series. Especially, after a 162-game season.
The Braves had won three consecutive division titles already and were only in the position they were in because of injuries. They did what they had to do at the deadline. Don’t blame them for making a run at it when the Mets and Phillies had every chance to bury Atlanta with their enormous payrolls. I do think it’s stupid that the Dodgers had to play a one-game playoff but you need incentive to win your division. I would be fine with changing the Wild Card Game to a best-of-three.
The Nationals were only two games behind the Braves on July 30. They could have gone for it like Atlanta did. No one forced them to trade eight players and give up on the season.
You’re right that it might water it down but the 2021 Braves are not a valid example because they WON THEIR DIVISION.
I “don’t blame the (Braves) for making a run at it. I congratulate them for being smart. But injuries were significant for a number of teams, and I don’t think the Braves can be seen as unique.
My comments are not to defend any of my favorite teams or even the teams I dislike. It’s about maintaining the quality of the playoffs, which I already think are watered down. With MLB pushing playoffs to almost half the league, I think they turn the season into a mockery. And like the HOF, which has become a joke, so will the World Series.
The Marlins finished about 10 games behind the Braves in both of their World Championship years. No one says anything about that.
I love the 14 team concept, that happens the Rockies can make the playoffs once in awhile.
I actually like more playoff teams. I know it means the “most talented and best” team won’t always win but it brings a lot more parity. I love parity. 90% of the time I don’t care who wins as long as it’s not the same teams every time. 14 playoff teams makes it more likely we see less dynasty’s and more variety in world champions. I find that to be a good thing. I’m not even opposed to 16 team playoffs with no bye’s. If your biggest fear is getting upset by an inferior team in the playoffs you probably are much better off than most fans. I do think the series are too short, though. They should bring back the 9 game world series and the wild card round should last no less than 3 games. I think the fact they shortened the world series is lame and a think 1 game playoffs are even lamer. Just go 3 games, 5 games, 7 games then 9 games. For anyone who doesn’t know: Yes. There have been teams who won 4 games in the world series but still lost. It used to be 9 games. Why they shortened it, I will never know.
They are idiots.
12 is too many!
They are just determined to destroy MLB.
Bound, you forgot to add the bound
And you forgot to add the “and”. 😉
You know, I could hear Hank Hill saying something like that.
Yes, but he’d add “I tell you hwat”
I don’t think additional playoff teams will destroy baseball, by any means. I love playoff season, even when my team isn’t involved.
Destroy it? Probably not, but will make the playoffs much LESS exciting and more watered down. The regular season would also mean less. 14 teams in the playoffs might very well be the nail in the coffin for me.
Newman – There is no valid argument for allowing teams with records around .500 to play in the postseason.
If you can’t win at least 53% of your games, you’re not worthy.
IMO, not when you play over 160 reg season games. Which, I am also okay with. And if they’re not worthy, they will be knocked out early.
I understand where you and others are coming from.
With 14 teams making the playoffs owners will be incentivized to just spend an avg amount to try and squeak in the playoffs. Then they can tout we are a playoff team, or we just missed the playoffs year after year.
14 team playoffs are a water downed product. You will have playoff games that won’t even sell out.
The death of baseball won’t be quick, it’ll be done through many tiny little nails in the coffin like this, slowly bleeding it out until nobody is interested any more. It started with expanding the w/c to 2 teams, then adding a runner on 2nd in extras, next it’ll be bigger bases, no shifts, multi-ball and the Philly fanatic riding around the outfield in a golf cart taking liners to the face for an automatic win.
The ironic thing is Manfred claims his whacky rule changes will draw in more fans
And it will.
@sfes / When Manfred says it’s a sunny day, make sure you pack an umbrella.
Manfred is the Ultimate Shill.
8 ft diameter bases, with sponsor adds on them
Every time a player hits the bag, it’s time for a 10 or 20-second “commercial break.”
You’re young. It started with going from 2 divisions to 4, taking the playoffs from 4 teams to 8. Since then, it’s all been downhill.
I’m far from young, but haven’t been here as long as some admittedly. 4 to 8 I think was fine as there was still enough late season drama. Now it’s just boring games between mediocre teams to see who will fall ass backwards into a playoff place.
IMO 5 teams per league is fine. I’d like to see the Wild Card game be best-of-three, though.
14 Teams for Playoffs? why don’t they just hand out participation trophies to everyone.. what a joke imo
How is that much different from 12?
It will give the team with the best record an easier path. If a team wants to go for that best record, they’ll spend and the players will be happy.
Less teams will tank, and the players will be happy.
More teams that think they are close will spend and that will make the players happy.
The owners get more revenue from playoffs and that makes them happy.
Everyone wins but the fans. But the owners and players don’t care. It was never about the fans.
And the fools that picked one side over the other are still fools.
Very sad for true baseball fans. First two then four. The league expands and they bring the playoffs up to eight teams. No more expansion yet there now is 12 to 14 teams. Why not make it an NCAA type tourney but have games just once every week so you only need one starter?
Stop with the “true baseball fans.” “True baseball fans” want to see baseball. I’d actually be more disappointed about the NL getting the DH (and that is coming from a Mets’ fan who knows they can use it) than I’d be about expanded playoffs. If the ML gives the MLBPA a team salary floor that arrives at $100M after 10 years with 2% annually compounded interest, the players will probably be more willing to accept their CBT structure.
But on average teams will spend less because they will only spend up to being a wildcard instead of spending to win the World Series. I think average will become the norm. The only winners would be good teams who get hit with injuries and get healthy late.
A CBT floor would be much more impactful on overall spending, although I think the players determined early on that they weren’t getting that done.
if the last team/two teams arent good enough to be in the playoffs then they will lose early. why does that bother people so much?
It’s baseball. The best teams lose a third of their games. The worst teams win a 3rd of their games. And any team can come up and bite you on any given day.
1988 Dodgers vs the 1988 As.
come on Dark, you know better. How often does the BEST team, going by to the regular season record, actually win it all? Rarely. Adding two extra teams just add more possibilities for the division winners to be taken down. I guess some think that’s why the playoffs are exciting, but for me it just really takes away the benefit of going through the 162 grind and winning the division.
16 out of 30 make playoffs in NBA. And 8th seed is pretty pumped to play 1 seed. So are the fans. WE BELIEVE Warriors, 8th, beat Mavs at 1. And it was awesome, tho mavs would disagree. To me, a team would want to “buy” at trade deadline even if sub500. 830, if mavs couldn’t beat those warriors then maybe they had no chance even in the next round. And likewise, if Warriors hadn’t beat Mavs, then that would have been expected. BUT, that upset has happened JUST ONCE in nba history. So your point 830 was spot on. AND, there’s always that slim chance that 7 seed could pull it off. it’s exciting and imo would lead to teams spending more or being more active in off-season. My giants were not expected to even make the wild card. But excellent front office/coaching led to 107 wins. Gee, you think other teams will follow suit? SF had expected to compete last year and then spend this year when $ came off the books. More teams, imo, will plan that way.
How can anyone not see the harm 4 extra playoff teams does?
It devalues division championships and eliminates playoff races.
Look at the AL last year, with 14 teams both the Jays and Mariners would have been guaranteed playoff spots. All the excitement surrounding the last week of the 2021 regular season would have been gone. Nobody would have been talking about the possibility of a 2-team or 3-team tiebreaker.
Look at the NL last year, with 14 teams both the 82-80 Phillies and 83-79 Reds would have made the playoffs. Why on earth would anybody want to see mediocre teams like that in the postseason.
With 14 playoff teams, the casual fan will be saying “Wake me when it’s the LCS”.
I really hope this watered down version of playoff baseball comes back to bite the owners in the butt. In the first round there will be plenty of empty seats and low ratings, that’s what happens when you take an achievement that was once special and turn it into something that is no big deal.
raltongo 2013, 16,18,20 … 4 out of last 9 years
In the first round there will be plenty of empty seats and low ratings,
================================
If the Tigers make the playoffs in the #7 team in the AL, they will sell out.
“The American League Wild Card game between the New York Yankees and Boston Red Sox peaked at 8.4 million viewers on Tuesday night.
It’s the most number of people to watch a baseball game on ESPN since 1998.”
Great point. Just like the 2021 Atlanta Brav… oh, wait…
Not necessarily true, Dark. A team that goes 4-3 every 7 games wins 93 over a full season…. and a team that goes 3-4 every 7 games wins 69. Put those 2 teams in a short series and it can go either way. Hell, even the worst teams can rip 4 in a row against the best.
How often does the 8th seed beat the 1 seed? The NBA’s playoff system is a joke that often makes regular season games meaningless.
Thats because it was the yankees and Red Sox, they always draw. And it was a one game playoff. Having all these extra teams waters it down and devalues the long regular season.
“Wednesday’s Cardinals-Dodgers National League Wild Card game averaged 6.67 million viewers on TBS, trailing only Cubs-Pirates in 2015 (8.30M) as the network’s largest audience ever for the Wild Card round.”
I’m surprised the players aren’t pushing for a shorter season but insist that they still get full season pay., if the owners expand the playoffs. They don’t think the fans care when they change things about the game. The fans put up with Atlanta and Cincinatti being in the NL west, the DH in only the AL, the four team AL west and 6 team NL central, Interleague play during the regular season, moving Houston to the AL when they could have easily just put Milwaukee back to the AL, runner on 2nd in extra innings and the fans still watch the game so I guess that they are right. ,
Yes, a ‘grind’ is very exciting.
The players will be pushing to be paid their salary for the season. They didn’t cancel any games or cause the work stoppage. If the owners decide that they’re better off expanding playoffs and paying the players for a full season, then they will cut that deal. The determining factor will be money, which means it probably needs to come together pretty quickly.
Joe – I don’t doubt that a small number of teams in long postseason droughts would draw well. Any type of postseason participation by the Pirates, Mariners, Orioles, Tigers would likely be exciting for their fans … when they finally break through. But after that? Not likely.
And using Boston/Yankees as a ratings barometer? C’mon Joe,
Two of the most popular teams in MLB, the sport’s biggest rivalry, playing on a night when there were no games played in the NFL, NHL or NBA.
raltongo — Just look at the Braves last season. 88 wins = mediocrity = World Series Champs. Disgraceful. And it’s only going to get worse.
They couldn’t have just easily put Milwaukee back in the AL. The AL West was the division that needed another team. Houston was the best fit in terms of geography. It’s still not ideal but, considering the other options, it was the best choice. Besides, it put them in the same division as the Rangers.
@Pete’sView
How many times do people have to tell you that the Braves WON THEIR DIVISION? They would have made the postseason under the 8-team format.
Moving Milwaukee to the NL was done to appease Bud Selig.
Kansas City is closer to the west coast than Houston is.
Milwaukee is closer to the AL central teams than KC is.
At some point, MLB will expand to 32 teams and there will be four divisions of four teams in each league, giving consideration to market size as well as geography.
The NBA revised the format for their Playoffs last year. 1st through 6th in each conference are guaranteed a spot. 7th through 10th go into a play-in to fill the 7 and 8 seeds. This is not insignificant — as it stands the Lakers are 9th in the West and would have to qualify through the play-in.
FSF, slow down and read what they guy just wrote. He basically said what you are saying just in a different way. Fans=money, owners care about money therefore owners should care about fans. Without the fans the money will dry up. Personally, I don’t see the fans ever leaving en masse but, a slow trickle? With the way shitbird manfred operates and his lack of vision for the game? It’s inevitable.
Kansas City had first refusal on moving to the NL and chose not to move. Kansas City is also not closer to the west coast than Houston.
It is the classic NSEW problem. Houston is slightly further west, but KC is closer to the west cost teams. However, I think Houston is closer to the Texas Rangers than KC is.
I’m not sure how distance is measured. Plane miles…they’re virtually equal distance.
And
..I DON’T WATCH BASKETBALL…..I also don’t think mind has to jacked up all the time. An afternoon at the ballpark was a relaxing experience with it’s “Wow” moments.
Baseball is America’s past time, no matter what the ratings say. Baseball teaches some real deep things. They have no business changing the rules. The fact that they are, and so no chalantly, proves to.me they do not respect the game.
Accepting the results of a 162 game season says something, something about life. They have diminished the authority of the manager. I could go on and on.
If you think about these things, you uwill understand WHY baseball is Americas game….
And how horrifying Manfred, the owners and the players are…..
What do these.new.rules and pleasant arrangements teach?
You its.more than basic.math
The baseball fan: 12 team playoffs w the same format as the NFL 6 from each lg. The top 2 get 1st rd bye, 6 vs 3 & 5 vs 4 in the wildcard round (best of 3 w the division winner having all 3 games at home). Follow that up w best of 5 division series, 7 game LCS & World Series.
Theres a big difference. It could mean the difference between a below .500 team getting in or not, and gives owners incentive to not spend since they’re “playoff contenders” at 82 wins… imagine a 106 win team getting bounced in the 1st round by a 79-83 win team… disaster
It may not get the favorite to spend more, but it could entice teams around .500 more willing to spend sooner coming out of a rebuild, or to delay a rebuild by adding players, knowing it could make a difference. There are more teams in the middle ground, than at the top or bottom of the standings. Giving them a reason to spend can only help the players.
It almost happened in 1994 before the strike Texas led the AL west with a losing record. And it did happen in the Co-vid shortened 2020 season. Houston make the ALCS with a losing record. So it is quite likely it will happen with a 14 team playoff. All it takes is one team to get hot. it doesn’t matter in the playoffs what your record was in the regular season.
1o sucked. 12 sucked worse. I am so sick of the owners.
With 14 teams making the playoffs, then let the big market teams blow off the luxury threshold and buy playoff births. With that many playoff teams, the playoffs are the big equalizer. I don’t like that many playoff teams. It’s not good for baseball, but something has to give.
Nobody gets everything. Not the players, not the owners, not the fans. The faster everyone comes to terms with that, the better.
Arte Moreno’s burner
Even better, just let MLB pre-select the teams in the playoffs based on which games would bring in the most Tv revenue and end the charade once and for all.
I’m most concerned about the devaluation of the 162 game regular season.
My best baseball memories are from 1968, when the Tigers and Cardinals won their respective Pennants and went straight to the World Series.
That was the last time that happened, as MLB added four teams in 1969 and split each league into two divisions. Funny enough, the American league east had the top five teams from 1968 and the west had the five worst teams. Even the LCS was an adjustment.
I would like to see MLB honor the teams with the best record in each league by awarding them “The Pennant”. It used to be a big deal to win the pennant.
I would also like to see a rule that no team with a record of .500 or worse can qualify for the playoffs. Either give another bye or let a team from the other league take the playoff spot. Losers don’t belong in the post season.
This would completely ruin the sport
Not having games completely ruins the sport.
Think the sport has all but ruined itself. Between the greedy owners, greedy players, cheating scandal, overpriced long term contracts that almost always underperform, skyrocketing ticket prices, declining attendance since 2012, declining tv ratings, illegal substances on the ball, steroid era, HOF debacle, longer games, massive shifts, not changing to the times, fans all but being ignored, lockout and bickering during a war, lockout and bickering while inflation skyrockets, etc…
More teams making the playoffs is pretty far down on the list of issues these greedy sons of guns need to worry about
No one will stop watching the MLB because of the Hall of Fame. They will stop watching the regular season if it becomes a glorified exhibition.
Fred. How many baseball fans don’t play fantasy baseball?
I’m really curious. That keeps them watching baseball.
You really believe this? I think it’s the opposite personally as teams will stay alive further into the season which keeps fans engaged.
I quit playing fantasy after the 1994 strike.
Probably a lot don’t play, especially the older fans.
I’m in my 60s and I play.
I haven’t played recreationally for 15 years and use to play it for money hardcore for 5 years. I did quite well in it but it sucked my enjoyment of real game for me. I barely watched baseball during that time.
I think you’re right, Buddy Boy. It’s not the same in all markets, though. For a team like the Yankees, who are almost always in contention, a season that they’re just squeaking into a 14 team field wouldn’t feel very exciting, but there are many more cities where fans would be glad to add some relevance to their season. I’m just concerned that there will be teams that don’t really deserve to be relevant that are playing into October.
Not many baseball fans play fantasy baseball. And from experience many just like to draft and orphan their team.
Baseball is such a beautiful game that I don’t think the players or owners can ruin it. But they both have tried very very hard.
I think historians are going to look back and see Matt Parker and Trey Stone as psychics of their time, with the intro to Baseketball being a documentary.
2 man sack race would add excitement imo.
Too long.
There is nothing exciting about the game anymore. They’ve used analytics to get rid of risk taking plays, like the stolen base, away. No more strategic moves on the field, like when to take your pitcher out because you have a run scoring chance in a tight game. Closer fences so we can have HR derby instead of legging out triples. I’d love longer games, if they were interesting. But there isn’t anything interesting happening in MLB anymore.
i have been thinking of the same thing. but for me games are exciting no matter what. just no base runner on second and 3 hitters minimum.
Jdt – Good comment. Good points.
Yeah it’s all Homer strikeout or flyout.. Everyone throws in the 90s or tries to hit everything out. Analytics are great to a degree but not when teams use them as an excuse not to go for it. I hate that no teams seem to have a fifth starter anymore its four starters then a bullpen game. Starters rarely go more than 5 innings unless there is a no hitter involved and some managers won’t even keep a starter in who’s throwing one. Teams don’t run anymore. The leader in SB had what 47. That’s an injury year for a guy like Vince Coleman or Rickey Henderson. Rickey led the AL once with 42 caught stealing. Guys hit 230 with 170 strikeouts but no one cares cause he had 25 homers. .
Or reinvigorate it with more cities and fan bases staying involved throughout the season? I don’t get this feeling it destroys the regular season. It’s baseball, there’s still going to outcomes determined on the field in a series format.
10 works!
Four worked. But with teams being able to have 5 times the payroll, what are you going to do?
No small market team would aim higher than constructing a roster that could conceivably win 83-84 games. “Look we made the playoffs!” while sporting a payroll south of 1.5 Max Scherzer AAVs. “We are contenders!!” but don’t sign free agents or take on salary on trades. Cleveland, Oakland, Tampa would love this.
This would be horrible for competitive balance and getting teams to spend more.
Possibly. Just to have fun, I’ll take an opposing view.
Attendance down the stretch plummets when a team is out of contention. At least in most places. TV ratings go down. Basically everyone flips on the NFL and waits to watch other teams in the playoffs.
However, if by getting an extra $5 million bullpen piece or adding a $10 million bat an owner could both increase revenue down the stretch but also get a piece of some playoff money, that sounds pretty attractive.
HalosHeavenJJ3 hours ago
Possibly. Just to have fun, I’ll take an opposing view.
=================================
I think that’s almost an automatic thing. Of course more fans will tune in if they are in contention. And even a single playoff game could mean millions. Except for that extra playoff slot last year, SD, StL, the Phils, and NYMs wouldn’t have added anything.
I do think it would significantly alter the trade market. Very few teams could get away with selling off pieces, the few obvious sellers would be at a big advantage.
I am not saying your general comment is way off, but, clearly, Tampa and Oakland are already above-average at making the playoffs even with the present format.
But a massive increase in the CBT would be good for competitive balance? Get real
@BuddyBoy not what I said. I’m no expert but I’d rather have my Guardians forced to hit a salary floor. I fantasize about their current core getting $100M payroll
Players should get behind the salary floor. More than anything that will keep competition at least at a respectable level and the players well paid. Even if there’s a CBT. BUT ABSOLUTELY NO TO 12 and 14 postseason teams. A mockery!
Those teams don’t aim high anyway and will likely never spend much.
I’d settle for spending wiser. I really don’t care how much they spend. It’s actually kinda fun seeing the Rays get further into the playoffs than the Yankees, and Red Sox. It’s all teams trying to win every year, no matter the payroll that I want to see. I mean, you can have a team that spends, but if it doesn’t spend wisely, what good is spending all that money?
@Jdt8312 agree on spending wiser, but teams like Cleveland are always looking for excuses to spend less. Look at last years payroll. They could get away with $50M payroll and periodically hit 83 wins for a crapshoot shot in the playoffs with a mediocre roster trying to catch fire. Not a good product for the sport
Agreed. But at least Cleveland was in the playoffs in 2020. I’m looking at the Pittsburghs of the world, who really don’t make any attempt at being good, and epitomize “wait till next year”.
Pittsburgh will be in playoffs just about every year for the next 10 years. Money wasn’t their problem. Player development was.
@Jdt8312, welcome to baseball, nice to have a new fan. FYI, in 2015, the Pirates were 98-64, the second best record in MLB that year. Are you suggesting they were able to do that without trying to be good? They also made the playoffs in 2013 and 2014. In 2018, in an attempt to extend their window, the Pirates’ GM panicked, went out of character and make the boneheaded Chris Archer trade. Seems like they were trying to win within a window. When that window closes, you shed veterans, build up on prospects and develop for the next window.
Cleveland, Oakland and Tampa are competitive on a regular basis with the existing rules. I doubt they will change their strategy because of any CBA changes.
But they definitely don’t want cheap, controlled players making more. Part of their business model is trading anyone making decent $ in arb 2. Imagine their horror if more players got arb earlier or pre-arb salary went up significantly
Why is it such a big deal to everyone if it’s 14 teams, doesn’t every other major pro sports league use a 16 team format?
NHL and NBA have an 82 game schedule. Which is half of a normal MLB season, so is the # of games the deciding factor for the outrage? Does it really make the regular season “meaningless”
Even in those leagues it’s rare for a #5-8 team to even make it to, nonetheless win a championship. But doesn’t it captivate everyone when it does happen?
I’d say expand by 2 teams and go for 16 team playoffs in the following CBA.
I don’t watch basketball or hockey until the playoffs. Their regular seasons are absolutely meaningless. Now, I’m just one guy so it counts for nothing. But I actually find a pennant race down the last 6 weeks to be as interesting as a playoff series.
So you don’t really like watching the games for the sport, I guess. It sounds like you don’t really like watching basketball or hockey for the enjoyment of it. All you seem to be interested in is finding out the results first hand.
I for one like seeing Steph Curry toss in 3’s, and Alex Ovechkin score goals, even if it isn’t the playoffs.
I with super2. My family loves playing hockey and basketball. Won’t watch basketball at all but love hockey playoffs. 1st they play much faster and harder in playoffs. But main reason is if you can’t make the playoffs you aren’t worth watching. Used to be over half the teams made it. Now half. Seeding doesn’t matter. Higher seeds should win more because they are better teams. I also don’t watch college basketball. Used to watch March Madness. Regular season doesn’t matter.
Bet the owners are already thinking about this.
@Jaysfam1981: if it’s rare that a 5-8 team wins a championship, what’s the point? Why does Baseball have to be exactly like every other sport? Most teams play outside. In some cities it’s not uncommon to have snow during October. This is a summer, outdoor sport. Adding another playoff series would push the envelope with the weather. And for what? Because the owners want us to watch t4eams that don’t belong in the playoffs lose the series so they can make more money? C’mon…
Because baseball is not about flash in the pan showboating and individualism.
Jaysfan1981 — I’m sorry, but that is a terrible take. If you’ve ardently watched baseball for more than 15 years, I’m appalled. But I’ll bet it’s less.
There is more luck involved in the MLB playoffs than either NBA or NHL.. All of the playoff series in both the NBA and NHL are best of seven. With MLB, in a best of three or five game series, a worse team has a much better chance of winning. The NBA is especially coherent with expanded playoffs bc of how the game is structured. Since there are so many possessions by both teams, the better team will more often win a game than not.
IMO ten teams is already too much – having fluky champions like the Braves makes the game less meaningful.
I’m not a fan of watering down the playoffs. Rewards should be earned.
That said I’d 100% watch them on TV and buy tickets if the Angels are in them so the owners and players are right, there will be more money.
Exactly this. 100% my take, as a fan of the East Coast version of the Angels–the Phillies. The only path for them to break the decade-long playoff drought is to expand it to 14 teams, but I do hate the idea in general. But if players can push up the CBT while ‘losing’ on the 14 teams, then maybe this thing can finally end
Exactly the opposite of what I’d like to see happen. Owners should be firm on the CBT so that hedge funders like Mets and Dodgers don’t dominate. MLB already gave up too much on raising the CB tax minimum at all.
On playoffs, focus on earned rewards for regular season performance. Expand the Divisional to 4 of 7 to add more TV games. The longer the series, the more likely the better team with deeper starting pitching will prevail.
Make playoff life hard for wild cards. If we must expand to three wild cards in each league, do it this way: a single game elimination between the two WC’s in each league with the worst records; then, as the second game of a day/night doubleheader that day in the same ballpark, the winner of the first wild card game against best record wild card. Play this doubleheader on the home field of the team with the best record in the league, and commence game one of the seven game Divisional Series game in that same ballpark on the following day. Play all seven games in the home field of the team with the best regular season records in each league.
How are the playoffs watered down when you have more games and better series setups (no one game loser out junk)?
Because you get worse teams participating.
Does anyone really believe these reports, any longer…journalist hacks!
I tend to admire journalists. Add to it that this is a free site and I find your vitriol nauseating.
Vitriol? Really, snowflake? My comment had nothing to do with this site. This site, was reporting what journalists from a different entity were reporting, the hacks…
You admire journalists? Current year journalists? Considering your response, I suppose you might be the type that does…
Thank you mlbpa!! For being the better group and giving a little to the other side to reopen negotiations. I realize 14 teams isn’t ideal but being adverse to it doesn’t really fit the mold of what they’re trying to do which is “make the game better for the younger players”. So bravo! And personally as a fan I like having more teams in the playoffs as it gives my team a better chance to win and make it to the postseason!!
Watered down.
That’s it!!! Bring in the replacement players. A 52 year old Todd Van Poppel start is better than reading about rich people complain about not getting their way.
Then do you favor bringing in replacement owners? They’re the problem here. The union has given, and given. The owners didn’t even come to the table for weeks.
They’re called “owners” because they own the team. That means they get to decide who gets to play. That’s why they can lock out the players. The players can’t bring in new owners because they don’t own the team. The owners hold all the cards here. I don’t know why this is so hard to understand. I’m not saying thee owners are doing the right thing, but these are facts.
Except they’re about as useful to playing baseball as any random person off the street. They’re nothing more than common shareholders in something that they themselves have almost nothing to do with, they’re only real value in baseball is to not screw things up, something they’re not good at.
Maybe all those TVP rookie cards I have will substantially raise in value finally lol
Every team could make the playoffs. Start them in April. 162 game playoff, 30 teams, best out of 162.
That’s as good an idea as a stupid “ghost” win.
How is this different than other leagues?
NFL 14
NBA 16
NHL 16
Has it ruined those leagues?
“Has it ruined those leagues?”
I’m guessing no… but I never watch any of those leagues. The # of playoff teams is not the reason though.
I only care about the MLB regular season now. The playoffs are just a crapshoot. I haven’t watched many post-season games in years. Very much doubt that is true for others though.
The playoffs are the best baseball of the year. The regular season is a very long grind, and somewhat boring at times.
Its really kjust because of the sports /bar/ restaurant tv viewers….not the homebodies…..
You may not watch them but the NFL and NBA both have better or equal ratings
Yes, it has.
Teams under .500 win NFL divisions.
The NBA regular season is meaningless. If you’re not rebuilding, you’re almost assured to make the playoffs. Seeding is all that’s at stake.
They both seem to be doing very well financially.
I agree that the NBA regular season is almost meaningless but only 3 teams have won their division in the NFL with a losing record and each time it was 7-9 (2010 seahawks, 2020 washington) or 7-8-1 (2014 panthers). That can happen when they only play 16 (or 17 now) games. But it also tells you that maybe divisions aren’t the way to do things anymore. If the MLB wants 14 teams making the play offs I’d rather just see the top 14 teams overall based on win-loss record.
Yes, the NBA playoffs are a joke. The Lakers rest James and Davis and it waters down the game.
If there have to be 14 teams, how about three division winners per league and the the four wild cards have a 4 team play in for the last spot.
WC1 versus WC 4 at WC 1.
WC 2 versus WC 3 at WC 2.
Highest seed of two winning WC hosts the other two days later.
Surviving wild card plays top division winner best of seven.
2nd best division winner plays third best division winner best of seven.
Manny, I could go along with your format. At least it lets the wildcards fight it out with each other before getting to the division series.
No I wouldn’t say it ruined those leagues but it is ridiculous, especially in the NBA. There are really 20 play off teams if you count the 7th through 10 seeds that participate in the play-in tournament (basically their version of the wild card series which is considered play offs in MLB). You end up with the issue of awful teams like the Lakers and Pelicans making it in.
If they want 14 teams making the play offs in the MLB, I’d rather see them do away with divisions and just put the top 7 teams from each league in the play offs based on win-loss record. Or better yet the top 14 teams overall and do away with the leagues too. I think it’s an unpopular opinion certainly and one that would never be implemented but it would prevent bad teams with negative win-loss records making it as was the case in 2020 under the expanded play offs (Astros and Brewers were both negative).
@Davro: NFL played outside in all weather. NBA played inside. NHL played inside on ice during the summer, and be played outside during the colder months, if it’s cold enough to freeze the ice solid. MLB is a summer sport, played outside, for the most part, and isn’t a lot of fun to play when it’s cold out…for players, or for fans. More playoff series= more time in October/November. Even the NFL moves it’s championship game to warmer climates, instead of a home field for one of the participants. The other sports have options that Baseball really doesn’t.
I know people who only watch playoffs. They used to watch NFL until the latest expanded playoffs. Most people will watch anything though so it didn’t hurt.
Davro — You do realized that Major League players and teams play 162 games, a far longer and more grueling schedule than the NFL, the NBA and the NHL. They do so to see who are the best teams. Why should that suddenly be flushed down the toilet for a 14-team watered-down playoff of mediocrity?
Bad enough the braves won the WS last year with a pathetic 88-win season. ELEVEN TEAMS were better than Atlanta.
Owners could get everything they want and still reject the deal and ask for more.
Insert players for owners and you’d be more accurate. The players are already far ahead of the previous CBA
What’s next green baseballs?
The precious NFL has a 14 team playoff field and everyone thinks it’s great. You hear no complaints about it whatsoever. But baseball does the same thing and everyone is up in arms about it. If it gets them back on the field then I say do it.
I hardly watch the NFL, and THAT is why I don’t complain about it.
You’re the minority then as the NFL and MLB viewership isn’t remotely close
That’s not how majority/minority work.
You hear complaints when teams go negative and win the division in the NFL but it’s only happened 3 times (2010 seahawks, 2014 panthers, 2020 redskins).
Giants went 10-6 in 2010 yet didn’t qualify for the playoffs. Instead, the 7-9 Seahawks did. I generally move on from stuff pretty quick, but that still pisses me off a little.
The NFL plays in all weather. And did you watch any of the games in the first round of the NFL playoffs? There might have been one that wasn’t boring.
Ham, the NFL is 16 now 17 games. Each game has meaning. I don’t love the 14 teams in NFL because the 7 seeds are usually garbage or mediocre, but he season is short so I can tolerate it. For MLB having that my teams get in while playing 162 devalues the season.
MLBTR writes “However, it’s worth noting that the 12-team postseason framework already marked a notable concession by the union.”
What makes a chance for more players in the post season with a chance to get hot and win a Championship a concession?
Yes, the Owners make more money. Are the playbabies mad because someone else is making money? Someone else getting something you’re not getting is not a “concession”!
BTW, they do get paid, and the more they advance the more thy make.
See quora.com/Do-MLB-players-get-paid-for-playoff-game…
Have a downvote, simpleton.
Coming from you, it’s a compliment.
Too bad that you don’t understand it.
“playbabies?” How long did you spend coming up with that one?
You liked it! Probably not.
Two divisions per league, division winners play for league pennant and no interleague play. Reward teams for being excellent, not being barely above average and lucky at the right time. As a culture we need to reward hard work and excellence, not luck.
No interleague play to increase the suspense of the World Series. No interleague play also means that teams that do play each other would do so more often so rivalries would be better.
You’re missing the point. More playoff games, more revenue for owners, higher salaries for players.
You’re missing the point. More teams in playoffs, lower average quality. Strive for excellence, not merely being good enough.
As the results of the last CBA showed, that hasn’t been the case. Revenue far outstripped salary.
Sounds like 1972. Things were much better then,.
The game was great in the early 70s. It was a much better game than it is today. But it’s still a great game.
SF 107 wins
LA 106 wins
One in, 1 out?
2 divisions might be good but with 15 teams?
The hyperbole about the effect is hilarious. I’m not a fan of a 14-team playoff, but it isn’t going to ruin baseball. So far, stupid rules like the tie game crap, and the 3 hitter minimum haven’t ruined the sport. The DH in one league and not in the other for decades didn’t ruin the sport.
There are negatives to 14 teams, but there are some positives as well. I’m guessing the overall effect to be slightly negative, but that’s debatable. No one can know for sure what the overall impact will be. I’m guessing that the players weren’t really that opposed to the idea, but have resisted purely as a bargaining chip.
I agree. Fourteen teams sucks but baseball will survive.
Tad2b13, you are my friend for the day.
@tad2b13 –
This is a really good post. I’d rather not see a 14 team field myself. But give us a couple seasons & we’ll be used to it. & it’ll increase attendance & revenue, etc, etc.
Tell ya.
The 3 team pile-up between the Yanks, Jay’s, & sox last summer was pretty exciting. Although I fear some of my fellow Yankee fans reading that & giving it to me with both barrels over being excited about a WC game.
But it sure seemed a lot more fun than playing out meaningless games down the stretch.
How long has it been since they added the second wildcard team, like a decade? I still hate that.
I like the 2nd wild card better than single wild card. Instead of just giving a wild card a divisional series it made them earn it. Kept more teams in hunt. If only 1 wild card no need to try and contend if you can’t win division when you have a giants dodgers situation. Should have had 3 game wild card though if they wanted more games.
I was surprised that the players insisted so strongly on a 12 team format to begin with.
But Ghost wins are an utterly stupid idea that should be discarded immediately.
I’d like to see a ghost win go to a team with a significantly better regular season record (7+ wins?) in the first two postseason rounds.
So long as the three division winners get byes while the other four with the non division winner best records whittle down to the one wild card, who cares?
The three division winners would be waiting ten days for the four wild cards to whittle down to one.
No off days. Wild cards play 1 game. Then 3 game series for the winners. Division winners wait 5 days. Have 7 game divisional. Neither side has mentioned this. Lots of incentive to win division.
Ghost win would provide incentive to win division. A fre win, not bad.
Just home field advantage and pick opponent though. As a fan I wouldn’t care what seed my team was.
The whole idea is to create another round of playoffs that they can sell to ESPN for $100 million per season.
Seed 1 Bye
WC4 at Division winner 2
WC3 at Division winner 3
WC2 at WC1
All 3 game series at the higher seed’s park
How bout this: Play 162-game schedule. The winner of each division gets in the playoffs, with the two teams with the weakest records playing each other. Everyone else go the f#ck home.
The ball is in the owners court, there is a deal to be done. Players give the owners a 14 team playoff. The owners increase the CBT and lower the tax.
Not gonna happen!
Playbabies need to accept:
2022: $122M, 25% rate to $126M, 35% to $130M, then 60%
2023: $124M, 25% rate to $128M, 35% to $132M, then 60%
2024: $126M, 25% rate to $130M, 35% to $134M, then 60%
2025: $128M, 25% rate to $132M, 35% to $136M, then 60%
2026: $130M, 25% rate to $134M, 35% to $138M, then 60%
If quick, MLB will pay for games not played and grant service time.
Anything with higher thresholds, we’re looking at Mothers Day or 4th of July with no pay for games not played and no service time or no season: NO PAY, NO SERVICE TIME
Then Sherzer can be another year older without $43,333,333,33 and still trying to be King
F__k it make it 32 teams that make the playoffs. Let AAA teams make the MLB playoffs as well.
You all don’t get it. Players and owners don’t care what fans want. Players want to get paid as much as possible, and owners want to generate as much revenue as possible. If the rules, playoffs, expansion has to change to make this happen, then that’s what will happen eventually. Fans have zero input.
A business and it’s employees want to make the most money possible? What a bizarre concept.
I assume they think people will get over it, but if you’re driving away your revenue base, then it is kind of bizarre. That’d probably be a more long term issue though
Exactly.
14 teams are too many… that will allow .500 teams to make playoffs or worse… that will cheapen the excitement of the trading deadline as well…and first round byes always hurts the team who has the bye because of the “down” time. Perhaps there should be a floor where if you don’t win at least 85 games you cannot qualify for the playoffs
There is no evidence first-round byes hurt teams. It’s just confirmation bias when it does happen, ignored when it doesn’t.
Big time how would they do that? If seeds 6 and 7 don’t win 85, that means only 5 teams make the playoffs that given year?
Bigtimeyankeefan — I think you’re on to something. But let’s raise the level you suggest to 90-win teams. Then we start to see high-caliber teams. Some years there will be more teams in the playoffs, some years less. But the QUALITY will be there.
And if the teams are uneven in numbers, a schedule can still be worked out.
They need to have every team in the playoffs. Those who do not win will get a participation trophy.
Just make it 30 and skip the regular season
In case we had any doubt just how dumb the people negotiating this thing are, we have a “ghost win” proposal. Where you can make the playoffs but be down 1-0 in a series without ever playing a game.
These are the men negotiating the future of MLB. LOL
SMASH THE MLBPA UNION TO PIECES!
With Extreme Prejudice!
Why are these absolute IDIOTS continuing to negotiate against themselves? The owners haven’t given an inch and the players keep giving up a mile.
Owners raised minimum salaries from $570k to $700k and they “haven’t given an inch?” . Seriously? We have no baseball because of the players greed.
The best way to solve this impasse is to immediately bar Boris from the state and tell Scherzer that he isn’t allowed in the room as he is a Scotty boy lackey. Madden says he has 7 people in the room when they had the last best offer … 3 by the player side and 4 by the owner side that confirmed they had an agreement (with nice increases for the young players) until Boris who wasn’t in the room got ahold of Scherzer and threw a fit when he heard because his players couldn’t get big time increases. hmm
youtube.com/watch?v=lUSY-hLjzBM
I didn’t bother spending 30 minutes listening to that, but I don’t believe Boras nixed the deal.
I also don’t think the owners’ latest proposal was good enough, and I don’t think the players and their negotiators needed Boras to tell that.
Fine but madden is a hall of fame baseball writer and he said it was
Boras getting Scherzer to try to nix it,;. I think he knows more about it then either of us! Seeing how he says he is over there covering this.
The other thing I want baseball back period! I watch the red sox (for obvious reasons) and if they aren’t playing in the playoffs i don’t watch the other teams on the tube but I do keep checking in to follow the winners from a far. I believe a lot of us here do the same with their favorite teams. . . .
Confirmation bias much?
I highly recommend people watch at least the first 20 minutes of the video.
More playoff teams gives less incentive for teams to spend.. The team that is hot wins in the playoffs.
James:
The hot team doesn’t always win. Remember the 2007 Rockies? Swept the Phillies, swept the D’backs, undefeated in the PS until they got swept by the RSox.
And, actually, it might be just the opposite of what you say. A stronger roster means a better chance against a hot team. So teams will need to strengthen their rosters to defend against more teams.
I doubt it. As we saw with the shortened season, teams seemed less likely to push the chips in for the expanded playoffs.
IDK, I don’t like the fact that MLB wants to expand playoffs, but I get it, a lot of money to be made. I hate the idea of a ghost win, but maybe have the division winners have the entire series as a home series. That makes more sense to me, and could help eliminate some of the travel days so that maybe we can finish before Thanksgiving. Would prefer 12 vs 14 but I do applaud the players for their willingness to reconsider this. It isn’t a weakness or desperation, it is an honest attempt by the players to see if it will jump start negotiations and see if the owners will given on some of issues important to the players like the CBT threshold. It can be retracted if the owners don’t respond in kind.
While I inotially disagreed with a 14 team playoff, I looked at the standings since 2018 and the 13-14 teams had around a .520 winning percentage. Not pathetic or pedestrian. Say you go NBA route and do a mini play-in tournament with the bottom 4 teams each league at 1 neutral location. That could be exciting. #1 gets bye and the rest duke it out. I feel baseball needs change and some new excitement. Games are longer and there’re a ton of shifts and changes. This brings a different wrinkle if I were to consider it.
At this point I wouldn’t mind seeing a new league be formed altogether. Enough of this nonsense
man. The American League was a new league that was formed in 1900.
Manfraud — Exactly! And strip MLB of their absurd anti-trust exemption.
There are very few things baseball could do that would cause me to fall away from the game.
I’ve been an Angel fan my entire life… It’s part of my identity.
Nothing baseball has done here is as offensive to me as changing the name of Cleveland Indians. I can live with 14 teams in the playoffs much easier than I can with The Angels changing their name to the Los Angeles Rockets.
Screw baseball for changing the Indians name. That makes me mad. This is nothing.
Changing from a name that offends many people to one that is admittedly about as bland and inoffensive as can be is the most offensive thing baseball has done to you? That’s…different.
I feel bad for people whose identity is wrapped up around the Indians. I’ve been an Angel fan for 60 years. It’s part of who I am.
My back yard is Indian land. I can literally throw a stone from my upstairs widow and have it land on Indian Land. Native Americans live on Indian Land. That’s what it’s called, Indian Land. They don’t care. It doesn’t offend Native Americans.
My High School team was called the Warriors. Not anymore.
This is nothing but politically correct garbage.
You got that right Halo. i live just off the edge of the reservation here in MT. The Indians I talked to are proud of the teams supporting their heritage names.
Another thing the NFL Redskins were attacked by an activist but the Washington residents who were Indian were polled there and the majority liked the name AND the team. Seems there is no difference and people everywhere are proud of there team if they have one!
“It doesn’t offend Native Americans.” Have you asked them all? It offends a significant number of them.
Have I asked them all? Who gives a leap? Everything offends somebody.
So what do we do about it?
have you asked all the native americans? if not, as usual, you are acting omniscient!
Right. Because it even offends one, the name has to be changed.
You do realize wokeness is going out of style… right?
I would bet big money people are more offended by the wokeness in American today more than the name Indians.
So let’s ban wokeness and call it a day.
I just decided because I’m Irish I can object to Notre Dame’s football team name and declare it’s racist.
You don’t have anything to say on the matter. Even if you are Irish.
Wait a second. You don’t have to be Irish to be offended by the name, you can be offended for me. Even if no other Irish person I know is offended by it… it doesn’t matter.
Thanks for clearing that up for me. All is a few of us and a few of you.
You must have missed the decades of opening day protests by Native Americans in Cleveland…the name did not have the support of the Native American community
By the way GBs42. It is interesting what gets people worked up.
“It’s interesting what gets people worked up.
It sure is, like a sports team name change.
So you don’t care if your favorite team changes it’s name to the Trash Pandas. Or maybe just change your last name to Schmuck. Who cares? It’s just a name change.
What ever happeded to sticks and stones, sometimes change is for the better, and sometimes change is for the worse. I say, put your wallet wear your mouth is and support the Indians. They are the true victims in the U.S. while activists spin it another way!
Many things offend many people, do you want to change all of them? Please save your virtue signaling. Those that get outraged on behalf of others have no place making sarcastic comments about things working people up.
Cleveland MLB is going to be the Cavaliers and the NBA team is going to be the Point Guardians…
Going from 10 to 12 playoff teams brings in another $85M, but going from 12 to 14 only brings in another $15M? Why bother?
If perfect world priorities existed, players would be all over expanded playoffs. More of them get a chance at the Holy Grail every year. But alas, it’s just something that effects how much they get paid.
I don’t particularly care but would prefer the 6 division winners to be guaranteed a spot in the final 8. So 14 would somehow require 6 non division winners teams beating themselves up for 2 spots.
Rob Manfred hates baseball and also eats puppies
I will absolutely quit baseball forever if there is a 14 team playoff, even one year.
Bye don’t let the door hit you in the “rear” on the way out! Baseball is the game for most of us on here and when this is over it will still be.
Well it was for me too. I don’t care about the lockout, I care about the rule changes destroying the history and ruining the value of baseball. I’ve had season tickets for 12 years, and when working from home, I would have 3 different games on 3 different TVs at a time, and would listen even to the spring training games on the app for teams I didn’t follow. When they made rule changes and playoff expansion in ‘20, I didn’t watch a single inning all season. But I’m not interested in Rob Manfred’s or the owners’ gimmicky, clown show, marketing version of baseball. A 14 team playoff for even one year, for me is total and permanent cancellation of baseball for life, even if they change it back. I’ve already emailed my season ticket rep telling her that in the last two hours since this news broke.
That’s fine … so I assume your done here too then!
bencole — I don’t think I’ll ever quit baseball entirely, but if MLB goes to 12 or even 14-team playoffs, I just won’t watch . . . unless it’s my team.
Any team that wins its division deserves credit. After that, no.
Get back to 2 teams making the playoffs and a best of 9 series. Like the good ‘ol days of the first series of 1903 (and 1919, 1920, and 1921).
Forget all this nonsense. 12, 14 teams. Ghost wins.. that is a good one. Let me offer a suggestion they just let everyone into the playoffs that wins half their games or more.
Teams can not even find reasonable nick names.
Maybe we can have a three league trade where the NFL Washington team is the Cavaliers, The MLB Cleveland team is called the Commanders and the NBA Cleveland team can be called the Point Guardians.
The 4 owners who voted against the CBA offer should be put in the Hall of Fame.
I HATE the one-game playoff but in this scenario I would actually prefer it. The three division winners go straight to the Division Series like they do now.
#4 plays #7. #5 plays #6.
The two winners play to determine which team advances to the Division Series.
3 division winners then the next 2 best teams and the 2 worst teams. Best team gets a bye the other 2 division winners play best of 3 against the 2 worst teams all at home. Will prevent tanking because if you bottom out you get playoff spot and move up in the draft with little chance to win a playoff round and no home playoff game.
Be silent. Keep your forked tongue behind your teeth.
I think the 14-team playoff format will be a great idea for both MLB and the MLBPA. That format will start with the best-of-3 League Wild Card Series where the team with a higher seed will host Games 1 and 3 and the team with a lower seed will only host Game 2 while the team with the No. 1 seed in each league will earn the 1st-round bye.
I have no problem with 14 team playoff. This probably insures expansion in the next few years.
Do we want expansion? We already have plenty of teams that do not care to spend or compete. I’d rather see contraction, and or relocation.
BigB — The talent in MLB is already watered down. You want to add more teams????
Just give the plantation owners whatever they demand. As a player you have very limited time to earn and if you’re not a star financial security while achievable it is not guaranteed.
Of course I’ll still love the watching and the game itself, but man, not a fan of nearly half the league reaching the postseason.
No!
What are the chances the players pull what the owners did last minute and put a stipulation like just for 2022? lol
14 is too much. I think 12 is a little over the top but some sort of tweak is happening.
Instead of this ghost win for the 14 team or even the 12 team playoff opening round, let Manfred get his wish and for the higher seeded teams put a runner on 2nd to start the inning for innings 1-3 in the opening round only. That sounds like something Mangina has had cooking in his head.
I’d actually rather have ghost runners than entire ghost wins. Ghost wins has to be the worst idea i’ve ever heard
“the union fears those fluctuations could allow teams with already-strong rosters to be content not to push hard for further upgrades. ”
================================================
And, of course, this could allow teams with mediocre rosters to push harder if .525 can get you to the playoffs.
But please continue the one-sided coverage.
B.S. !! If the union agrees to this they don’t amount to a fart in a whirl wind! Why take the greatest game in the land and ruin it?? It already sucks that a balanced schedule was lost and inter league play is in place! Quit tinkering around dammit!
Stop ruining baseball. Why bother with 162 games if you’re going to allow mediocrity to make the play-offs.
Last year (2021), the team with the tenth-of-ten best records won the World Series and the teams with the two best records played one another in the first round of divisional play. Playoffs crown the good to excellent team that plays well and catches a lot of breaks in October the champion. This is horsepucky.
@Beldar J. Conehead
The Braves won their division, they didn’t get into the playoffs via a wildcard or some lottery. The Braves division NL East was more evenly balanced, and don’t forget Scherzer was with Washington 80% of the season and they also have one Juan Soto. Don’t forget the Mets have one of the best pitchers(DeGrom) in baseball until he got hurt last season. The Braves were not beating up on the DBacks and Colorado every other day. It’s called analysis and facts. But find a reason to demean the Braves winning the World Series when they went through the Dodgers and Houston, and were clearly the best team-without Acuna. A World Series win says so.
They had a good month of October. Winning a 7-game series doesn’t make a team better than teams that won a 162-game season.
@Beldar J. Conehead
The Braves played .667 baseball over the last two months of the season. You completely ignore the injuries they had and the fact that they had won their division three consecutive years already.
Also, they didn’t just win one seven-game series. They won three consecutive postseason series against teams with 95 wins or more without ever facing a single elimination game.
Besides, as Fred McGriff has already stated, the Dodgers got to play the Rockies and Diamondbacks 19 times each.
Fred McGriff — Eleven teams were better than the 88-win Braves over the 162-game schedule. I’m not dumping on Atlanta, but please, let’s look at this objectively.
48-team MLB — Almost every team had substantial injuries last season, many even more damaging than Atlanta.
@Pete’s view
“11 teams were better than the Braves” at what? Their win percentage over 162 games? You are not being objective at all. Have no play offs then, just award it to the side with the best win percentage over the year, never mind what other teams are in their respective divisions. The goal is to win your division (which the Braves did-and have done so for the past few years) and make the play offs. You are making straw man arguments. How many games did the Dbacks and Rockies win? Yet somehow you want to try and assert that other teams were ‘better’. The teams you have attempted to claim were better, lost to the Braves. You’re attempting to demean the Braves, but it didn’t work because your argument bears no weight whatsoever.
@Pete’s view
Yeah sure they did, how many teams lost a player like Acuna and lost Soroka for the season.
The Braves had to battle losing a player like Morton in the World Series, and Fried having his ankle stomped on at first base, and they still won it all. Find another excuse. Your excuses are quite pathetic.
Might as well get rid of the leagues or reform them into west and east like the NBA. That’s who’s ball sac they are dangling from anyway.
Actually, isn’t that believed to be the format that may come with the next expansion?
Just give all crybabies a Participant Ribbon.
In MLB, one of those “participants” can actually go on a run and win it all. Would anyone really count out the #7 seed in either league? This isn’t the NBA where there are sacrificial lamb teams making the playoffs. This is MLB where all you have to do is make the playoffs.
I guess whoever the first #7 seed to win a championship is, they can put together a book titled “Participant to World Series Champion”.
Oh yeah…Go Marlins!!!
Ghost wins? Oh brother…
14 teams!?!
Go Marlins!!!
Here’s my guess. The players are open to the 14-team playoffs as a result of Boras blowing up the last agreement. Right, wrong or otherwise, the owners were never going to allow Boras to dictate terms. Probably not any agent, but particularly Boras.
The Boras blowup, which MLB-R refuses to even discuss, provided the perfect coverage for the owners to walk. And the next day, they cancel another week of ST games, just as a warning that another week of regular game cancellations will be next.
Otherwise, why did the players make this offer?
14? Sure, the winners of the KBO and Japanese leagues, plus the U.S. and international Little League World Series Champs get automatic berths.
ok, so half of MLB can make the playoffs. yes, that’ll be incentive to spend. How G○dd@mn dumb are these guys? At least the Pirates and their 36 dollar payroll have a shot!!
Playbabies: If you’re shooting for the Moon and can’t even get in Orbit, you look silly.
Get back on Earth and enjoy your $MILLION$.
14 is much better than 12 teams with a ghost win or bye. The players concerns make no sense. However with 14 teams I’d like to see a shorter regular season around 150 games. I’d also like to see them seed the playoff teams by record and adjusted each round. LA and SF shouldn’t have played each other before the NLCS last year. THAT was the true disappointment from last year’s playoff
I think in the interest of equality and fairness to the LGBTQ fans, each and every team should make the playoffs
Love this lol
You know what they say about people that obsess over an issue to where they have to bring it everywhere…even if it has absolutely no correlation or bearing to a discussion.
I guess it explains what is in that spoonful when it’s stored in the closet.
Don’t cry Miss Marlin – here, take a free base – I wouldn’t want to offend anybody with my opinion
why would any team go ALL IN if making the playoffs only gives them an 8% (or whatever) chance of winning it all?
All things being equal, the Yankees had a 1:16 chance of winning the WS, once they were relegated to a WC game. Had they come in 1st, they would be 1:8.
That’s why they spend.
One thing I didn’t see anyone mention is in a 14 team playoff format, the stronger teams that are coasting along will likely end up sitting their players more and more games than they do now. This could hurt attendance, tv ratings, gambling, fantasy etc. All forms of revenue.
Teams already coast if they have a comfortable lead, and don’t coast if it is close.
This is a terrible idea. This means half of the league makes the playoffs? Man no, the playoff are supposed to be for the biggest and baddest teams..: not mediocre teams
Only works when all of the owners spend like they should. Half do not.
Hear me out… wouldn’t it be insane if somehow the owners snd commish snd players association just said **** it and every MLB and minor league player becomes a free agent. I know it would never happen, but that would be awesome. Like some real MLB the show franchise mode stuff lol
To Hell With Play Offs & Divisions
One American League
……………-N-……………
One National League
The Winners Of Each League Go To The Worl Series, Everyone Else Goes Home
Enough Of The BS
Now Teams Must Build To Get To The World Series!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So 26 of the 30 teams would have no rooting interest? Brilliant!
Happened with 16 teams for more than half a century. Not saying it’s a good idea, but I bet a higher percentage of people were interested in the World Series then,
But the ratings in a 7-game WS, will be a fraction of the revenue from the 50-game playoff series we currently have. And boosting attendance for the 4-5-6 teams in contention will be a fraction of the attendance that we’ll have if 20 teams are in contention.
Past that, if you go to a 2-team playoff, then you’re telling every small market team that they have no chance.
There are no “small market” teams in baseball, just owners that refuse to put money into their teams.
Owning an MLB franchise is like printing your own money, don’t let the billionaires fool you.
Like the ghost win idea. Make the “wild card series” a double header on day 1. If the higher seed/division winner wins one of the two games, no day two.
That also eliminates the issues of a bye actually hurting the top seed because of “rust.” The shorter the series the less time off.
My belief has been that the MLBPA will agree to a 14-team postseason if it helps get them to their preferred CBT and bonus pool. MLB knows this, so they’re playing a game. MLB will get it’s 14-team post his and the MLBPA will get their $230M CBT with increases.
We know this is where it’s going, yet we’ll still have to wait several weeks for a deal.
I’m in the minority on this one. I welcome the additional; craziness at the trade deadline, meaningful games in August/September and playoff games in October – all compliments of the expanded playoff field.
As a side note, the “ghost win” may be the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard. And I doubt the MLBPA really believes in its merits. I continue to believe the MLBPA negotiators are having a good laugh that the “ghost win” idea has been taken seriously and reporters have run with it.
The term “ghost win” just sounds so bizarre and outlandish that it’s automatically off-putting. I’ve warmed a little (and I do mean ONLY a little) to the concept of weighting things, such that the higher seed/division winner would be given an ostensibly “deserved” extra-advantage – one that goes beyond the kind we’re used to. But I think the terminology for it should be something else. Like, “The lower seed team needs to win both games of the series.” Period.
Or it’s equivalent, “The higher seed team (only) needs to win one game of a the series.” Period.
Yeah, it’s the exact same thing, however it’s phrased, but to me it just sounds way less hinky than calling it a “win” – “ghost” or otherwise – for a game that wasn’t ever played.
*”the” series (not “a” series) in that equivalent version
The higher seed should have a position called “10th man.” They will select one random fan to play the bleachers. Any ball caught by that fan in the air is an out. There’s your advantage for the higher seed.
Extended playoffs will NOT increase meaningful games. It will just make it so that the meaningful games late in the season will be played by mediocre teams. The really good teams long since having clinched. So we’ll get to watch Boston play NY not for a spot but for a seed. Yawn.
The game feels tarnished at this point. Accept the universal DH and move on
This one confuses me…
Not the concept, but the fan reaction.
I mean, I love the sport of baseball and ideas like automatic runners and ghost wins (heck, even inter-league play and an NL DH) sadden me and make me feel further removed from the game I once shared with my grandparents.
But, the expanded playoff field?
Maybe others here watch MLB for different reasons (and I’d love to hear what those are) but I watch because I want to see my favorite team win … or at least be in the mix down the stretch.
So if they now have a better chance of making the post-season, I’m all for it.
14 team playoff is way too many.
The World Series itself has lost a lot of shine in the past 20 years. Quite literally half it’s viewership. Adding more teams to a boring game and a prolonged system doesn’t make it more exciting….and it’s probably wrong to believe fans on the local level will get excited about their sub .500 team for much of any reason.
Fewer games…and make the playoffs worthwhile. All this proposal does is to make the regular season mean less…a LONG regular season…and give MLB the chance of having a “World Champion” of the 14th best team in baseball. Without narrative that’s just absurd and doesn’t help credibility.
It’s time for a complete overhaul. Its a bad game where bad publicity is the market driver. MLB has become the Kmart of sports.
No US sports team has ever been “World Champion” of anything other than “MURICA, F@%$ YEAH!”
(2004 bonus points if you know the origin of that phrase.)
Dock_Elvis — I am a rabid baseball fan, and have been for so many decades I can barely count them anymore. But I used to be glued to the TV for the Gillette commercial that began every World Series game; wouldn’t miss an inning. Now, if my team isn’t in it, I might watch one or two games. A 12 or 14-team playoff will probably end my watching the playoffs all together.
And I don’t think younger fans are anymore enamored with this watered-down crap than I am.
In light of the subject if this article, is there a better reason to support Minor League baseball in small town America? The beauty of the sport has been converted to white noise
The players actually have all the power, they just have no way to wield it, because most guys need to get paid. Only a small minority makes a gazillion dollars. The owners have no such problem. The players will hold out a couple of months, they’ll cave, and that will be that. Baseball will start on or about Memorial Day.
Baseball will start on or about Memorial Day.
====================================
The problem with Memorial Day is that it simply adds on one more problem. The owners are never going to pay the players for the two months of missed work, not will they give them service time.
So if the owners are offering ‘x’, and won’t go any higher, then asking the owners aren’t going to offer x + two months pay. And conversely, if the players declined “y”, how are they going to feel about accepting “y” plus losing two months pay and service time.
Players and the union have been saving up for at least a few years to prepare for this. The union will start paying players 15k a month in april. I don’t imagine the likes of trout are included with that, I could be wrong. I think they’ll be able to hold out longer than we think.
14 teams in the playoffs will give cheap owners like Reinsdorf their ideal – they will be able to compete for a playoff spot with like a 20th ranked payroll. It’s all about greed, the players do not see how much of a loss this would be for them. Many team payrolls would go down with the idea that their attendance will still be good if they are in the “playoff hunt”. MLB has lost about all the intergity that it had when I was growing up. There is little reason to care whether this labor disupte will be resolved, or to watch baseball when it has. I can’t wait for the first sub-.500 team to win a World Series. One thing is for sure – MLB is not going to get a dime from me, and I highly doubt I am the only fan who is sick of this nonsense and will ultimately go to less games, if not lose interest in the sport entirely. This group of players and owners are literally ruining the sport.
14 playoff teams!?
What’s the point of the regular season then?
STOP RUINING BASEBALL greedy owners!
STOP RUINING BASEBALL greedy players!
I guess that the people complaining about 14 playoff teams aren’t thinking about how, when MLB expands again to 32 teams, it will include 4 divisions in each regionalized league, thus 4 division champions, and then the 3 best remainders as the Wild Card teams.
This was coming no matter what.
I get the 3 game series with the better team getting a ghost win and only needing 1 win to move on but after that I seen a paragraph that said a potential 4th game.
Same scenario with a ghost win with the better team needing 2 wins while the other team would need 3 wins.
But what happens if the series goes 2-2? I mean there is no mention of a game 5.
Disregard. After re-reading it I see that it is best of 5 with the division winner starting off 1-0. So the division winner would need 2 wins while the WC team would need 3 wins of the 4 Remaining games in the series.
Better team wins with 2
What happens if the “better” team is an 88 win division winner going against a 106 win wild card team?
That scenario likely won’t happen but I corrected my verbiage in my 2nd post just below my 1st post stating division winners get the ghost win and I refrained from using “better team” because it isn’t always the case.
took em long enough
So Boras has finished putting together the players counter offer.
Here we go again.
foppert, you are correct on Boras. That piece of garbage helped destroy the negotiations on Tuesday. I despise that load of crap.
Yes. The old guy came across as honest and believable, and it fitted the “going well, going well, suddenly fell in a heap” timeline.
Here’s hoping the reps stick to their lines this time. That false hope is a killer.
If the MLBPA, MLB and Commissioner really care about the fans they’ll lock themselves in a room and not come out until the deal is done. Don’t hold your breath. Speculation and talking means nothing until a new CBA is finalized.
Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
Spending more on free agents does not a good team make. It just rewards mediocre bench players. The difference makes, the true stars, deserve more. The interchangeable parts who hang on too long only for the money do not. And young players? Give them a performance bonus if they are great. Otherwise no.
Half the league in the playoffs and half the teams down 1-0 to start? Sounds terrible…
Here’s a fun idea. Since MLB has an anti-trust exemption courtesy of the government, one not granted to other sports leagues, how about if Congress dictates that the game’s Commissioner moving forward has to be elected by both MLB and the MLBPA, representing what fans wrongly believes he does now–the game. He represents the owners. We’ll call this the Landis Legislation. A Commissioner with power above the owners and the players to do what’s good for the game.
I’m not serious. Mostly.
There will be a deal soon. The players moving toward the 14-team postseason format means ownership should move toward the higher CBT.
I’ve had the same idea and can’t for the life of me figure out how it wouldn’t be the best plan for all parties.
If the game is strong, everyone gets a better, more profitable product. Simple.
It’s only blind greed that keeps things the way they are.
It appears You are assuming the owners objection with a higher CBT is that it would cost them more and the added revenue would cost them more.. It costs the vast majority of teams absolutely nothing because they don’t come close to the spending limit now. It will cost the teams that do exceed the threshold more. So why would they object based on cost? The evidence would suggest they object based on the fact it will increase the spending advantage for the few teams that already have a considerable spending advantage. The real question is why would fans outside the very top revenue markets want to expand that advantage?
“Ghost wins” don’t do the owners, or their network partners, any good. TV rights fees paid to the owners would be adjusted accordingly to recognize “ghost win” games that are never played. That said, I still believe “ghost wins” are an absurd proposal the MLBPA never expected to gain any traction.
Just for fun, does it seem odd to anyone else that one of the players primary spokesmen makes $40+ million for 30 days of work per year?
I guess it’s a bit odd that a guy making $40M is the primary spokesman. If you mean what is really odd is that he is livid in preaching that players are not being compensated adequately, then yes it’s odd. If he makes 32 starts, he gets $1.34M per game. Now, that seems odd, especially when he gets $43M if he starts 16 games or if he blows out his arm in Spring training and does not play at all. Having a guy that will make $350M lead the chant about the plight of players certainly is something. I am not sure I would be so nice to as to call it “odd” but maybe it’s just me.
More PR crap from the union. Will they be meeting at church?
But if MLB owners pay their employees they’re awesome? At least they’re doing something…. The owners did nothing for their own employees but put them out of work – classy move
Ugh…
3 game series. Division winner hosts the first and third games. Why make this harder than it has to be? Ghost games??? Seriously?!
Three games in different cities. Lots of travel for three game series if this is a west coast/east coast series.
How bout a “Ghost League?” That’s what MLB is well on its way to becoming.
Players want to dictate schedule now. Smh. I hope their schedule ends up being that they sit at home while their wives pester them about the millions they’re losing.
For every million a player loses, an owner lose $40 million.
My playoff proposal:
Restructure back to 4 divisions and 2 leagues
Rotate home field advantage, playoffs against cosist of NLCS, ALCS, World Series. Detonate divisional series.
Reduce fees paid to networks for less games, require distributors lower rates
Owner & player valuations reduced to appropriate levels
Top salaries reduce to $5m range, which should still be more than enough for a player to support generations of their families.
@Craig So, in other words, just wind it all back to 1991?
I like it!
It doesn’t matter to me whether it’s 12 or 14 , let’s get it settled !!
Please no ghost
Fire Tony Clark!
The owners will probably take a hit out on you for making such a statement.
Black Santa is delivering coal to stockings of baseball fans everywhere!
Okay: 29 out of 30 teams make the playoffs, and 23 teams get anywhere from 1-9 ghost wins depending on an infinite number of factors.
Any appeal will be decided by a subsequent series played between the two teams in a neutral state, with no voter rights issues, and with the possibility of gaining a ghost win and starting with ghost runners on second base in every inning.
If that fails, the small-market teams get even more money to not spend on improving their rosters for non-competitive balanced super-tanking.
I like your idea but it still needs a few tweaks. Maybe they can lower the mound in extra innings and allow for the players to get a manicure at 1st base so they don’t have to be ashamed of wearing those ugly oven mittens.
Yes, and the pitchers have to throw underhand….if they pitch for a large-market team of course.
This is the only solution for competitive balance.
Bring baseball back to 2 leagues where the BEST 2 go to the World Series.
Keep the 12 team playoff structure but just add games to it.Make the Wildcard round 2 out of 3.Make the Division round 4 out of 7.This adds Playoff games for added TV revenue without watering down the Playoffs any further.
I’m out. Dumped my RSN and MLB tv so if they decide to play I won’t be watching. The strategy seems to be to bilk more and more money from fewer and fewer people. Slow death spiral it would seem. Probably be crawling in bed with China soon
How about 28 teams make playoffs. Two teams who are out get all the draft picks they want. Skip the regular season and play 7 game series for top 8 places. Then typical playoff grid. Done.
If the goal is to expand the playoffs, at least, considering we’re moving to DH in both leagues, rank all the teams again based on record. Instead of having the Dodgers and Giants play each other in the first round, it should have been Giants & Reds, going by the 14-tream playoffs. Or, if we assume the first two teams get a by-series, then it should have been TBR vs. CIN, etc.
By-Series: San Francisco Giants – Los Angeles Dodgers
* —
Tampa Bay Rays vs. Cincinnati Reds
Milwaukee Brewers vs. Oakland Athletics
Houston Astros vs. Atlanta Braves
Chicago White Sox vs. Seattle Mariners
Boston Red Sox – St. Louis Cardinals
New York Yankees vs. Toronto Blue Jays
Then they get ranked again based on their Regular Season Record.
As it stands, quite ridiculous that a 91 W Toronto & a 20 W Seattle didn’t make the playoffs but an 88 W Atlanta & 90 W St. Louis made it to the playoffs.
Sorry, should say 90 W Seattle.
Wonder since going to dh…we get rid of al and nl..top 14 teams make playoffs. 1 play 14..13 play 2 etc. Just like a ncaa bb bracket..in the end the 2 remaining would play each other for title. Would eliminate the issues like we see with teams having better record than division champ…just a idea.
How about 81 games, every team makes the playoffs, 7 inning games, players make more money than ever before!!
“In a 14-team playoff structure we felt that competition could be eroded in that area. … (When one team gets a bye), solely home-field advantage was not going to be the advantage to go out and win the division.”
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It’s time Scherzer stops parroting lines that no one believes, The players don’t give a rat’s a$$ about competition. They care about money. So do the owners, but at least the owners don’ pretend otherwise.
And 5 days since Boras blew up the contract and still not a word from MLB-R about it.
Boras blew up the contract? First of all there was no contract, nor were the two sides close to an agreement.
As long as MLB is proposing only a 5% increase in the CBT thresholds, zero increase for two more years, they’ll have an even harder de facto salary cap- while doing nothing whatsoever to inspire teams to spend on the lower end of the scale. There is absolutely no way in hell that the players will ever agree to that, nor should they.
As for Scherzer, I’ve followed his career since he spent six years with the Tigers. He has always been outspoken and puts in his two cents on whatever issues may come up. I take his comments as sincere in trying to give an advantage to division winners.
That being said, the idea of a “ghost win” is about the stupidest thing I’ve heard from the players since these negotiations began. I hope that’s rejected immediately.
I agree that the “ghost win” is absurd. I don’t think the MLBPA believes the idea has merit. It’s a throwaway to be negotiated away for something the MLBPA actually values.
I find it sad, maybe a little funny, that the MLBPA negotiators made Scherzer the face of the “ghost win” idea. He comes off as a bit of a chump doing their bidding.
Here is how I read it from the players’ side
They’ve always viewed the expanded playoffs with suspicion, but they didn’t have very many bargaining chips and this was their biggest one. They held out for as much as they could get, but the owners weren’t giving them anything that they didn’t want to give.
Raising the minimum salary will cost a team $129,500 per player. If half of their 26 man roster is in that wage class, that’s 1.68 million per team. They get five times that much just for uniform patches.
The owners accepted the idea of a pre arbitration bonus pool because $30 million is just $1 million per team, and it comes from the central fund (i.e. MLB.tv) Even if it’s $60 million, that’s just 2 million per team.
AND, they are immediately improving the lives of a majority of players. It’s good business to do these things.
Owners said they were willing to take 12 playoff teams because they still get about $85 million of the $100 million that they could get from ESPN, plus what’s left of the gate after the players’ share. They’d like 14, but mostly because it gives two of the lower payroll teams another shot at October revenue (and the huge boost in season tickets the following winter).
Max and the Players have some legit suspicions about whether expanding playoffs is a good idea. But having hit a brick wall and no games, they still have the card to play, so they’re doing that now. Max is just stating his own opinion, which he always does. Nobody made him the spokesman and nobody can stop him from speaking out. That’s just Max.
Hopefully, whatever they come up with will get enough owners on board a CBT threshold of $225- 230 million with reasonable increases each year, because there won’t be an agreement if they don’t. The owners last offer was disingenuous, not intended to get an agreement. They chose canceling opening day over an agreement.
The CBT IS a de facto salary cap with how the owners are treating it. So it’s just a matter of the thresholds now.
The CBT IS a de facto salary cap with how the owners are treating it. So it’s just a matter of the thresholds now.
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That’s what the CBT is designed for-to be a soft cap. It’s not really a matter of how the owners are treating it.
Patrick OKennedy2 hours ago
Boras blew up the contract? First of all there was no contract, nor were the two sides close to an agreement
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And yet Maddon and Maddog insist both sides had agreed. And they say that they talked with people in the room, and on both sides. And both of these guys are big-time sports media, not someone no one ever heard of.
But that’s not the important part. The important part is that no one in the media will even admit that this happened. They won’t even admit that there is a rumor that this happened.
And like I’ve said before; sports reporting is not real reporting. But if these guys had even a shred of journalistic integrity, they’d report on it.
Why would Scherzer be the one to be so antagonistic if it was about money for him? He’s made all his money and is basically signed up to earn as much as he reasonably could have expected for the remainder of his career. If anything, I would think he would want to get on the field and not let $43M or some prorated portion of it get away. Obviously, whatever he’s fighting for isn’t money or himself.
Why would Scherzer be the one to be so antagonistic
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From what I’ve heard, Scherzer says whatever Boras tells him to say. Much like the sports media in general.
Once again, are you claiming that he is so stupid that he doesn’t understand that this is costing himself money? Why the heck would Scherzer need to do anything Boras tells him. Scherzer is one of the few Boras clients who has been worth the money (and arguably the best FA signing of all time) adding some credibility to the BS Boras likes to shop around when duping owners into overpaying.
You have no basis for your comments and you’re declaring Scherzer as someone who is not is own man. That’s a bold accusation to just throw around. But that’s want the internet does, throw around unsubstantiated BS.
“Madden says he has 7 people in the room when they had the last best offer … 3 by the player side and 4 by the owner side that confirmed they had an agreement (with nice increases for the young players) until Boris who wasn’t in the room got ahold of Scherzer and threw a fit when he heard because his players couldn’t get big time increases. hmm”
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This is what one of the other posters wrote. Just watch/listen to the Youtube video.
Is there any reason for guys with the reputation and background of Maddog & Madden to lie about all of this?
I don’t give a rat’s a$$ how they split the money, but all of us have a vested interest in the press being honest and unbiased.
I’m not disputing those claims, but the notion that Scherzer just bends to Boras’ will is laughable to me. Scherzer has been a very outspoken guy his whole career. If they changed their minds because Boras made some compelling arguments (still yet to be truly confirmed), then so be it.
But what is your basis for thinking that Scherzer is some sort of puppet of Boras. You think he’s intimidated by him? Do you think he feels he personally owes him anything?
I’m not arguing that Boras didn’t blow up the “deal”. But quite frankly, the deal that they were going to sign is pretty much status quo which would bring up a much larger question of what this whole lock0ut and players combatively demanding change was all about.
But quite frankly, the deal that they were going to sign is pretty much status quo which would bring up a much larger question of what this whole lock0ut and players combatively demanding change was all about.
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I’m wondering the same thing.
On the CBT, in rough terms, the owners are offering 2% pa (too low) and the players want 25% ( a little high). Meet in the middle for a 17.5% increase over 5 years seems fair.
On the minimum wage, I thin the offers are 30%/5 by the owners and 41%/5 by the players. That’s a heck of a raise.
On the pre-arb pool, I believe the two offers are $30M and $85M, and this is all new money for the players.
And the players concession is a 12-team playoff, reportedly worth $85-95M.
If they met in the middle of everything, then the players would be getting 17.5%/5, 36%/5, and giving the owners $90M of playoff money in exchange for maybe $60M in pre-arb money.
That seems like a pretty decent set of raises for the players. If the owners get the patches they want (depending on how you calculate revenue), then the owners will do fairly well.
Either way, it just doesn’t seem like they are far enough apart to fight over.
You’re assuming a lot there. We have no idea what this supposedly agreed to deal looked like. If it is as you say, then yes, I feel that the players did get something worthwhile out of all this but that is wild speculation at this point.
If there is no baseball by the beginning of May then the MLB may lose a lot of fans. I am alright with the baseball season starting in May, especially April can be brutally cold in cities like Chicago to Minneapolis to Detroit to New York to Boston. As a White Sox fan I know many opening days in Chicago were brutally cold to sit outside or games were postponed due to bad weather. Heck, I remember one year it was snowing during the White Sox’s home opener in 2013.
If the season is shortened around one month then the players’ prorated. Needless to say, a lot of guys are being paid a ton of money.
I think at this point, we will be lucky to see regular season games being played by June. I’m just having thoughts of the ’94-’95 lockout.. and the way both sides are acting now. I’m not holding my breath for even May baseball at this point. As to losing fans, Baseball was/is already losing fans, and that likely started with the whole steroid fiasco, and recently with this ‘runner on second for extra innings’ garbage, and now this stuff. Labor strive is not needed now. I’m all for people getting their fair share, and I have heard all the numbers thrown around, but really Baseball players salaries being compared to other pro league salaries as an argument is ridiculous IMO, and the owners crying no revenue is BS when they are literally building their own networks to be the only ones to broadcast their games (which further frustrates fans by the way).. However, the owners also pay for trainers, pay for facilities (well maybe not all the facilities), pay the concession people, pay for all the concessions, pay for all the travel and travel plans. I get without players the game would suffer, but then again you see thousands of people go to hundreds of ‘A’ ball games even though those guys are not WS champs. The players should realize that even the minimum salary players are likely to make far more in their lifetimes than many regular folk and they do it to play a game. Owners should realize that they can stuff their greed where the sun don’t shine and actually throw the MLBPA a bone from time to time. There is plenty of blame to go around, but again the fan loses regardless of who ‘wins this round of labor strife.. and the ‘good news’ is since both sides have such malice vs the other (unless they are winning a championship of course) that they will want to do this all over again in 5 years or less, instead of trying to ensure continuity for at least a decade.