Major League Baseball announced it has postponed the start of the regular season for at least another week. A statement from Commissioner Rob Manfred reads:
“In a last-ditch effort to preserve a 162-game season, this week we have made good-faith proposals that address the specific concerns voiced by the MLBPA and would have allowed the players to return to the field immediately. The Clubs went to extraordinary lengths to meet the substantial demands of the MLBPA. On the key economic issues that have posed stumbling blocks, the Clubs proposed ways to bridge gaps to preserve a full schedule. Regrettably, after our second late-night bargaining session in a week, we remain without a deal.
Because of the logistical realities of the calendar, another two series are being removed from the schedule, meaning that Opening Day is postponed until April 14th. We worked hard to reach an agreement and offered a fair deal with significant improvements for the players and our fans. I am saddened by this situation’s continued impact on our game and all those who are a part of it, especially our loyal fans.
“We have the utmost respect for our players and hope they will ultimately choose to accept the fair agreement they have been offered.”
The MLBPA offered a statement of its own in response (via Twitter):
“The owners’ decision to cancel additional games is completely unnecessary. After making a set of comprehensive proposals to the league earlier this afternoon, and being told substantive responses were forthcoming, Players have yet to hear back. Players want to play, and we cannot wait to get back on the field for the best fans in the world. Our top priority remains the finalization of a fair contract for all Players, and we will continue negotiations toward that end.”
The league and union had seemingly closed the gap on core economics issues in an effort to hammer out a new CBA. However, the league’s efforts to tie the introduction of a draft for international amateurs to the elimination of the qualifying offer proved a sticking point in discussions. MLB had offered the union three proposals on the matter: 1) accept an international draft in exchange for the elimination of the QO, 2) leave both the QO and international signing period in place as they’d previously been or 3) agree to the elimination of the QO with the chance to reconsider the draft next offseason; taking the third route would’ve given the league the right to unilaterally reopen the CBA after the 2024 season if the union continued to object to the draft.
MLB tabled all discussions on other matters beyond that decision, presenting the MLBPA with an ultimatum — choose one of those courses of action or break off negotiations, which would result in another week’s worth of game cancelations. The MLBPA rejected the league’s proposals, instead putting forth a counteroffer. Jeff Passan of ESPN reports (Twitter link) the union proposed the elimination of the qualifying offer for next offseason with a November deadline for a final decision on the international draft. In the event the union rejected a draft at that point, the QO would return the following winter.
MLB declined to counter that proposal, maintaining that their three presented choices were the only scenarios on the table. The league then moved forward with another week of game cancelations. It’s not clear when the parties will reengage in negotiations, but future discussions now figure to be tinged with a whole host of new complications.
The league’s decision today appears to wipe out the possibility of playing a 162-game season. With the shortened schedule are likely to come debates regarding player pay and service time. Manfred has previously stated it’s the league’s position that players shouldn’t be paid for canceled games. MLBPA lead negotiator Bruce Meyer indicated the union would fight any efforts to prorate pay, noting that the game cancelations have been the sole decision of the league.
It’s frankly baffling that the league and union ended up where they did, given how much ground they’d closed on issues like the competitive balance tax, minimum salary and (to a lesser extent) the bonus pool for pre-arbitration players. Those topics hadn’t been formally settled, but the gaps between the parties’ respective asks on each seemed manageable enough to close with further discussions. Despite the movement on core economics, the international draft and indirectly, the qualifying offer, proved a bizarre roadblock.
The MLBPA has continually maintained an unwillingness to implement an international draft, suggesting that players from Latin America are particularly opposed. However, the league’s offers to take the international draft off the table in exchange for the continued existence of the QO make clear that compensation for signing free agents was an equally important issue. The qualifying offer hasn’t garnered a ton of attention as a contentious problem throughout negotiations.
That’s in part because the league agreed early on to its removal before later tying that to the implementation of the draft. However, it’s also because the union has focused much of its attention on a desire to improve compensation for players earlier in their careers. The qualifying offer isn’t related to those efforts, as it only comes into play for around 10-20 free agents (all of whom are at least quality players with six-plus years of service time) each winter. The MLBPA’s decision to draw a line on the qualifying offer is odd, as is the league’s immediate refusal to continue negotiations and cancel more games after the union’s small modification.
The players’ offer to eliminate the QO for one winter and then reevaluate the international draft in November wasn’t all that different than the league’s proposal to maintain the status quo on both topics. Were the union to refuse the international draft and reimpose the QO in 2023-24, the only benefit beyond what the league had been offering would have been one year of free agency without compensation: a matter that would have affected around a dozen players.
Given how close the parties are, it makes both the union’s decision to introduce this counteroffer and the league’s call to end negotiations look like the creation of an avoidable problem. Now, they’ll have to deal with the new issues of player pay and service time on top of whatever gaps remained in the actual questions of substance on the CBA. How long today’s setback will linger can’t be known, but it’s another blow to fans who’d gotten their hopes up at reports of progress over the past two days.
Andy Martino of SNY first reported the upcoming cancelation of games before the league announcement.
Players are so effin dumb and greedy
I have to agree. Pro athletes are getting more and more ridiculous. It appears the owners have increased their offers but the union is trying to act like they haven’t.
Latin players, who represent basically 30% of the league, don’t want an international draft.
Because they know an international draft will forever dampen the talent pool.
I keep imagining players going around speaking Latin. Ha. I know you meant Latino.
Well too bad. I am sure the other 70 percent don’t want a draft for US players but a draft exists.
I’m sure they wish everyone could be a free agent. I’d have more respect for the players if that was their position.
Latin means born in Latin America.
Latino means Hispanic males born in the US.
At least until they decide to change yet again what is considered to be politically correct.
According to Merriam-Webster;
Definition of Latino
1: a native or inhabitant of Latin America.
2: a person of Latin American origin living in the U.S.
But it was instituted unilaterally by the owners before the PA existed. They’ve since negotiated plenty of its details, but not its existence.
So because the domestic draft was already imposed, the players should just say oh well?
Damn straight
“After making a set of comprehensive proposals to the league earlier THIS AFTERNOON, and being told substantive responses were forthcoming, Players have yet to hear back.”
It took the players over a week to even respond to the owners last offer. Now the are pretending the owners are taking too much time on their proposal they offered a couple hours ago? Way to play media games and not rise to the occasion. It’s been 3 hours. The players took 7 days to look at the last league proposal before they did anything.
That IS the player’s position. The owners have an anti-trust exemption that makes a free market impossible.
Show me where the players said the owners were taking too long? They didn’t even consider the proposal after they said they would have a comprehensive counter offer today.
Instead, they made an other ultimatum as a precondition to talking further. Same thing they did in December.
Latino is a politically correct Spanish word that began being used in the US in the 1990’s to replace words such as Chicano and Mexican American.
It is no different than the Spanish word Latina to describe female Latins, Americano to describe male Americans, Americana to describe female Americans, Italiano to describe male Italians, Italiana to describe female Italians, etc.
Because Spanish is the most spoken language in Latin America, those in Latin America who speak Spanish refer to each other as Latino/Latina. Translated to English, it’s Latins.
tl;dr – It’s not incorrect to call those born in Latin America Latins.
lol @ “the dictionary is wrong and I am right”. Your wisdom doesn’t even include Hispanic, which is a term used in US demographics, and as an identity words for many.
Here is a 2013 Pew Research survey analysis of pan-ethnic terms used by people you wish to describe: pewresearch.org/hispanic/2013/10/22/3-hispanic-ide…
The survey found that most people identify with their own country of origin, or use the term American. Only 20% of respondents used either Latino or Hispanic.
Holds up for minor leaguers but not MLBPA.
Your insistence that this usage is not wrong doesn’t seem to include any data or reflections about what the people you are labeling call themselves.
It also doesn’t include Hispanic, which is a term used in US demographics/US Census Bureau, and as an identity word for some.
Here is a 2013 Pew Research survey analysis of pan-ethnic terms used by people in this country: pewresearch.org/hispanic/2013/10/22/3-hispanic-ide…
The survey found that most people identify with their own/family’s country of origin, or use the term American. Only 20% of respondents used either Latino or Hispanic.
As for people born in Latin America, the same sentiment, with no- to little use as an endonym and instead using a demonym associated with their country of nationality or origin. There is a general sentiment to reject pan-ethnic labeling from outside. The etymology is likely an abbreviation of latinoamericano which has origins in American Spanish, more specifically from early California.
I cannot find any supporting governmental, linguistic, or scholarly literature for the use of “Latin” (without the terminal vowel) as a pan-ethnic endonym, demonym, or identity word for people that isn’t externally applied or derogatory. Maybe pre-Civil Rights Era?
I did find it as an elliptical construction (the elimination of words that are implied by context) for “Latin American”, but typically only to describe food, music, or dance…not usually people.
history.com/.amp/news/hispanic-latino-latinx-chica…
ketchum.com/hispanic-latino-latinx-spanish-clarify…
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis_(linguistics)
xtra- There’s a lot more I could have written, but I’m not gonna write a wall of text about a subject that has really nothing to do with baseball. 2013 was a long time ago, times have changed. The word “Latinx” wasn’t even a known word until a couple years ago. Dictionaries become outdated, just like the names of organizations such as the NAACP and UNCF.
2013? Give me a break. I employ 70 people and contract with another 42 and our familial countries of origin are from the US and 5 different Latin American countries. ALL of us that our country of origin for our family is a Latin American country call ourselves Hispanics as a group. Its our cultural bond. Hispanos por siempre. Not all of my employees or contractors are Hispanic, but in my industry people most are.
Current Latin player can care less about a draft, most if not all Latin player just want to play. The ones that are against the draft are the retired ones link to baseball academies.
Current Latin player can care less about a draft, most if not all Latin player just want to play. The ones that are against the draft are the retired ones linked to baseball academies.
Señor Sapingo Sabelotodo
Miriam Webster — I went to High School with her.
So what? Drafted or signed as FA, the union doesn’t represent minor league players. So why is the union even involved in this?
language and cultural identity are dynamic and constantly changing, from decade to decade and from region to region. What is “correct” here and now may not be correct there and then. The concept of “strategic essentialism” by Gayatri Spivak will help make sense of the Latino/Hispanic/Country of origin/Spanish Speaking identity stuff. Never thought postcolonial theory would make into a MLBTR comment section, but here we are.
Latino means anyone in New York who hates the Jets. Which is a lot of people on GameDay Sundays. Amirite?
@bucsfan0004
“Hoc pactum stercore!”
@runningwithnailclippers
“Hoc pactum stercore!”
Just today
Players made a complete proposal
Owners agreed to make a complete counter proposal
Owners issue an ultimatum instead, not addressing several issues
Players make a counter proposal almost identical to one of owners offers
Owners walk away, don’t respond, and cancel more games
That is exactly what happened and some of you guys blame the players?
For not accepting the ultimatum ver batim?
Amazing
If what you wrote reflected what actually happened then I would be in agreement.
How about this.
— Owners made a proposal.
— Players rejected the proposal.
— Owners state clearly that if the players don’t accept the beginning of the season will be canceled.
— Players decide that they would rather have the season canceled than give up the QO for 10 players in next years FA class. Read that again, the PLAYERS decided to delay the season on an issue that slightly impacts 10 or so players in a single year.
Not happening. How about this?
– Owners will make a proposal.
– Players will accept a proposal.
– The 150-game-shortened 2022 season schedule beginning on April 14th.
How about this.
— Owners made a proposal.
— Players rejected the proposal.
FACT- the players countered every single proposal that the owners made
— Owners state clearly that if the players don’t accept the beginning of the season will be canceled.
THAT’S WHAT WE CALL AN ULTIMATUM
YOU SKIP THE FACT THAT OWNERS DIDN’T MAKE THE FULL COUNTER THAT THEY SAID THEY WOULD. THEY DID THE SAME ON DEC 1 AND FEB 1
— Players decide that they would rather have the season canceled than give up the QO for 10 players in next years FA class. Read that again, the PLAYERS decided to delay the season on an issue that slightly impacts 10 or so players in a single year.
NOT EVEN CLOSE. THE PLAYERS MADE A COUNTER OFFER, VERY SIMILAR TO ONE OF THE OWNERS’ ULTIMATUMS. OWNERS WALKED AWAY AND CANCELED MORE GAMES.
(caps are to distinguish my comments, since we don’t have bold or italics to play with)
lololololol
Jon Heyman
@JonHeyman
·
5m
Players made an offer late today: They’d spend the season working on a world draft and if it didn’t work out, qualifying offers/free agent comp would be re-installed at year’s end. This was Manfred’s idea Tuesday night but was rejected because it came after MLB’s 6 pm deadline.
That ultimatum had three choices, all reasonable.
If players want to prolong a work stoppage to give greater benefits to Foreign Nationals more power to them,
But don’t tell me you care about spring training and baseball stadium workers.
This is about power.
I’ve never said this… HOLD STRONG OWNERS, and let baseball fans realize what this work stoppage is really about.
Foreign Nationals need to remain free agents while American born players must be subject to a draft.
How about this:
– Players decided a draft that could affect hundreds of non union members each year was something they had to discuss with those closer to the issue. The conjunction of the QO with that was an owners construct. The players then offered to put the QO back in force if their membership couldn’t agree the international draft was in their interest by another deadline (next November) the owners threw in.
I refuse to read all caps. Scrolled on.
The work stoppage is not on the players. They were locked out. Remember that MLB stated they instituted the lock out to get negotiations going but then didn’t negotiate. Can’t blame the players for that. Now, as things get closer to agreement, New items are brought up. IMO, The owners want to avoid April baseball because it is the least profitable. What perturbs me is that neither Players or Owners are making any concessions to us the fans the true engine drives the money for both. Of course there will be the comments of don’t watch-buy etc etc. That’s the same as saying don’t vote or pay attention to our leaders when they inevitably wait to the last minute to resolve budgets.
@bjs Wow! You don’t even know what this is all about and STILL feel compelled to tell someone else they are wrong. This is 100% about an international draft that the players have said no to since 2002 and that the owners had not even mentioned since November 15th.
Halo, You have said that in every single one of your comments, even if you have never before said those exact words. You have been steadfastly pro-owner even when it meant you had to deliberately spread false information. So why stop lying or spreading hateful things now.
Patrick, they won’t get it because they are trolls. They are not hear to discuss anything logically and they don’t care what the facts are. You are 100% correct, but that won’t matter to them. Idiots will be idiots and they are certainly that.
Just cancel the season… Nobody wants to play or pay
@Patrick OKennedy
LOL this framing is bats*** insane
I think that the owners or even the players need to simply walk away and say they are calling it a year. That may well be the only a deal may get done.
PS–Google can shove it and just post my comment please
BREAK THE UNION!
BREAK THE MONOPOLY!
FK EM ALL SUPPORT YOUR LOCAL INDEPENDENT BASEBALL OR HIGHSCHOOL OR COLLEGE TEAMS.
Both sides are disgusting. There’s no right side in this bickering. I’d be fine with them never agreeing and both going empty handed. Would serve them right tbh
the money stuff seems to have reached a compromise. the issue is the int’l draft which publicly has barely been mentioned until recently. Though I thought the owners proposal to revisit it next year was fair
Owners are dumb and greedy and ultimatums are not how negotiating works.
Bull! They are business people.
Owners get most of their revenue in post season. April is low attendance month. Seems smart to me. Players will get less the longer they wait,
OWNERS RICH AND BAD. PLAYERS POOR AND GOOD. GIB PLAYERS EVERYTHING THEY ASK FOR OR UR BAD AND GREEDY.
Lovin’it
What’s also dumb is the owners lockout, and not negotiating for 40 days, now we have this. They are equally to blame for this stupidity!
Both sides could have negotiated during those 40 days, but NEITHER SIDE did. If it was my job being put on hold, I would have been in contact with my employer.
No bro…mlb chose to lock the players out instead of coming to the table. That’s a bad way to start off a negotiation. Don’t you think? But like I said, they are equally to blame for this stupidity.
The only reason MLB triggered the lockout now is because everyone knew the players were going to strike in August, September, October if they didn’t. This is as much the players fault if not more.
Be ready now to be attacked. Logic and telling the truth about the players and how baseball has gotten to where it’s at doesn’t go over well here.
the owners need to stop bringing last minute stuff.
You want effin dumb just look in a mirror
Crazies … just look at numbers of thumbs up, then take one and stick it
You know first hand they aren’t from real people
Well, considering there are 250+ comments on this article, why do you think the likes aren’t from real people?
@Crazies in Camden….not sure who your talking to, but your comment is dumb.
@Balk “you’re talking to”
That’s not even up for debate after today. Losing games because of the qualified offer is so bad. Completely inexcusable. The QO effects maybe 1-2 free agents a year if that
If you want to understand how wrong you are, imagine if the players proposed eliminating the Rule 5 draft and replacing it with the current international system, and made that a mandatory part of any deal.
Huh? How is that similar to anything happening?
This is on the players now, that’s clear
Major league ball players have ruined the game of baseball Star players making $30 million a year even a catcher Who’s batting average in the 200s and utility players make a good living baseball is no longer the number one beloved sport Where else can you play a game and make enough money to be set for life the integrity of the Game of baseball has declined Listen here major league ball players I’ll Go on living without baseball you guys are hurting the fans
you guys make enough money I have worked all my life working 9 to 5 to make a living I’d give anything to be in your shoes
Keep on speaking truth . I love it. If you haven’t tried following your local independent or college team I suggest you try. It’s a great experience. You’ll fall in love with the game all over again.
It’s funny how flat payrolls produce rising ticket and beer prices. Those greedy players indeed…
It’s funny that people think that running a club only includes costs associated with player payroll. EVERYTHING is more expensive.
The owners are so effin dumb and greedy
MLB had offered the union three proposals on the matter:
1) accept an international draft in exchange for the elimination of the QO,
2) leave both the QO and international signing period in place as they’d previously been or
3) agree to the elimination of the QO with the chance to reconsider the draft next offseason;
taking the third route would’ve given the league the right to unilaterally reopen the CBA after the 2024 season if the union continued to object to the draft.
This is 100 percent on the players. How can a clear thinking person not understand that?
Ultimatums often backfire.
Ken Rosenthal
@Ken_Rosenthal
· 3h
Per union source, MLB told PA it would counter on all issues today, but now league is saying it will do that only if union agrees to one of three options regarding int’l draft. League source disputes that account.
As many have said here, no one wants to see this process again next year – so the 3rd option has a poison pill built into it.
The players offer was that if their members couldn’t agree to the draft in November the QO would go back into effect. That was the trade off the owners were offering. Players can say no thinks. Saying the players are standing on the QO is completely off base.
It seems some lack of clear thinking here may be on the part of someone railing about foreign nationals. I’ll state it very simply 1 more time – so it sinks into your clear thinking mind. The international draft is subject to collective bargaining. The domestic draft wasn’t – it predated the PA and was imposed by the owners because bonus demands by players to sign were starting to rise significantly.
Players made an offer
Owners said they’d have a full counter offer
Instead, they deliver an ultimatum, not countering much of the players’ offer
Setting preconditions for further talks
Players make a counter proposal
Owners shut it down and cancel more games
This is 100 percent on the owners. How can a clear thinking person not understand that?
Imagine how disgusting an organization MLBPA is, that because some its members have buddies who make money off 12 year old children, to want to go to the wall to continue exploiting those kids. Bottom of the human barrel.
MLBPA (Boras’ minions) will never be satisfied even if the owners agreed to every proposal presented by the players. It’s all about GREED!
It’s not the players at all. It’s all on the owners who threw a curveball into the negotiations at last moment by forcing the international draft. This is an extremely dirty tactic and the players are right in standing firm. At this point it’s obvious the owners are unwilling to negotiate in good faith
Agreed. However the OWNERS are so effin dumber AND greedier than the players. Spellcheck didn’t correct me so I take it that my spelling is grammatically correct.
Break the union to smithereens!
Break the monopoly to smithereens!
Bigtimey, cannot disagree. We all have our opinions on who is holding up the deal and that’s fine. However, the league made it clear that there were three options on the international draft. Choose one. The players did not choose one and said that they had not heard back from MLB on their counteroffer. That is a total BS reply.
One hopes that those who want to hold the owners solely accountable for the lack of agreement will at least recognize there is plenty of blame to go around.
I’ll just never get it. Fans of the game of baseball, supporting billionaires who wouldn’t hire you to shine their shoes, over the players who make us love this game. It’s so fascinating.
pc – What I’ll never get is people taking sides. Do you give upvotes based on the poster, or what was posted? The right thing to do is support certain stances, because both sides have embarrassed themselves on certain issues.
And BTW it’s billionaires that tend to overspend on players. Billionaire Steve Cohen has supported huge player salaries more than anyone. Bruce Sherman, who is not a billionaire, has been very frugal with his team’s payroll.
Billionaire Steinbrenner has always had massive payrolls, non-billionaire Stuart Sternberg has always had low payrolls.
Billionaire John Henry’s Red Sox has been at or near the top in team payroll almost every year, Bob Castellini is worth just $400M and his Reds hardly spend.
Sure there are some billionaires who are cheap and don’t spend, but overall they are the ones most responsible for figuring out how to generate enough revenue so that they can go crazy spending on player contracts.
@pc01
So…the players would hire us to shine their shoes? How much do they pay you?
@pc01
The reason you’ll. never get it is because of your smooth-brained, overly simplistic, black and white perspective on the issue.
How a grown adult can still hold it in their mind that the owners are simply these rich, greedy, bad men and the players are a bunch of poor, exploited, downtrodden victims boggles the mind.
The owners already pay upwards of 45% of total profits to the players. Do you know any industry other than sports where employees are making that much money? Almost half of all profits and millions of dollars a year to play a game?
I’m certain that there is no conceivable split that people like you or the MLBPA would be satisfied with. The poor, humble players will always be exploited and oppressed in your eyes. Anything the players demand is immediately deemed the new common sense standard of what is just and fair. And then it will change again the next time the CBA expires.
So when Rothschild aka Jeter sells his portion of the team first and everyone follows suit who’s gonna be to blame for the crashed market and Rothschild owning the bank if Britain cause Napoleon won the war even though he lost it? Space Jam
Yawn.
It used to be that there were two major sports, football and baseball, and two almost major sports, hockey and basketball. Now there’s only one major sport, football. Baseball is unwatchable now, even on DVR delay. If the entire season is cancelled, would anyone notice?
Yes
and yet, the owners locked them out.
course, most of the owners didn’t exactly make their cash ethically and are greedy, but you couldn’t point one out if any walked in front of you with a sign saying who they are and what they own.
but hey, the 95 stable geniuses upvoting you are the types who hate working for less than what your worth, but have zero problem with others doing it, because folks like you are massive hypocrites.
Watching and keeping up with my favorite baseball team has been an addiction all of my 71 years.
With ticket and concession prices already so high now—— I can just imagine what a fan will have yo pay in the future.
I don’t know about the rest of you—— I’ve reached the point where I’m disgusted with both the multi-millionaire ballplayers and the Billionaire Owners bickering back and forth on money——— while making it practically impossible for a working middle-class family or even retired individuals to attend a ballgame and witnessing a live game.
So disgusted!!! Let them battle each other for years to come —- while living in their mansions.
I’m with you. I’m 51 and been a fan since my earliest memories and have up on MLB for my local independent team. Much more affordable and the teams play for the love of the game and it’s much more like the game I fell in love with as a child.
I hear Walmart is hiring.
I am sure the stance of union reps already kazillionaires sits well with those players who fight every season for a starting job to pay the bills.
Well with you managing the Walmart at least they’ll have a genius they can report to.
Stupid is as stupid does
PBA is king (oh crap)
I am a retired millionaire.
How are those scratch-off tickets coming along for your career?
*classless, insecure retired millionaire
A millionaire? That ain’t much nowadays. I’m a multi-millionaire worth $3.2M, but I’m going to keep working until I’m 62.
sure you are, dude.
so, assuming legit, slip and fall you lied about, offed family to get it, or got touched over and over again by a bunch of republican christians and scoutmasters and took a settlement?
you put the “S:” in stupid and you can put that in the books
Walmart ain’t got a union and they only hire idiots, and if your not play dough you’ll never make management even though you have the entire store memorized and put away 7 pallets to 4 peoples 1? No thanks I’ll bet on myself and die trying if I have to. Been there not stupid enough to get used again
Baseball is dumb now
I would suggest meeting everyday but that’ll be argued in negotiations too
They would probably spend a week arguging where theyre gonna negotiate
This is squarely on the players. Dumbarses.
ya, while I tend to side with the players overall, the negotiations have seemingly reached the point where the owners have moved considerably and the players are just unwilling to compromise. They seem to expect to have a drastic overhaul immediatley, but instead they should be happy for the gains they have made for future players.
You’ve said that since the beginning, Reds, soooooo saying at every single step in the negotiation process creates the framework for the broken clock theorem, depending on what “this” is.
Yes, you finally {may} be correct. But owners still have everyone locked out, so there is that small little obstacle to overcome that was created as the ultimate power play to coerce specific provisions in the first place.
Are you joking? Everyone knows the reason they triggered the lockout is because a player strike in August, September, October was inevitable just like they did in 94. And they specifically chose to do it then to make it hurt more for the owners without a care in the world about the fans. Frankly, you should be thanking the owners for locking out and avoiding a player strike right before playoffs.
So, the owners preemptively locked everyone (not just players, but all employees) out for their own good because of a future event that you say would’ve certainly happened, even though it didn’t certainly happen in two actual season in the past? That’s a lot of mental gymnastics to convince yourself of your argument. That’s a poor objective argument though.
Saying you made a bad decision because someone else was going to make a future bad decision (most likely) does not make it the other person’s fault. It’s called circular reasoning.
So it’s wrong for the players to strike in the Fall, but right for the owners to lock them out in the Spring? Crazy Man Crazy!
Man I know if I locked myself out I’d feel really stupid especially if it was because I knew I’d end up with less pennies in my piggy bank
Can anyone fill me in on why the MLBPA does not want an international draft?
The money some international players make in their signing bonus is literally generational wealth at the time of signing.
Yeah, but they have to pay a ton to their “agents” who recruited them at age 12 and the first round pick slot was going to be something like $5 million.
It seems that some of the Latin players don’t want to the corrupt system to be upset.
A draft would undoubtedly cause there to be less MLB players coming from latin America
I’m dumb stuck. Players have a singular focus it would seem. Sure, big signing bonuses for some are life changing, but how about a safe, secure, controllable recruiting environment for…..let me get this right….. children.
Nope. It’s all about the money.
Ummm … that’s some flawed analysis.
The draft, in NO way, would limit the number of players that can come into MLB. Those players that are eligible for the draft can either get drafted OR they can sign as a FA. The quantity of players will have zero bearing on the draft.
What changes? The first few picks probably get a little less money than they would get today. The vast majority of picks would get a little more money than they would get today.
The same is true of the money received by draftees under the current U.S. draft system, too. Why assume that the players in an international draft would not also receive sizable bonuses?
They would still get the money,
That’s why the braves got such a good deal
It would suppress the earning power of international free agents who can sign for big money (Moncada, Robert, etc).
Maybe the MLBPA should have had some diversity in the negotiations last week in Florida instead of just rich white (and black) guys, who could have addressed how Latino players felt about the International Draft.
There was never any doubt about that, but the owners kept forcing the issue, starting at the last minute, after the CBT was almost resolved.
Then, they tied it to a concession that they had already made.
Last minute? They have been talking about an international draft for 20 years.
So if you are born outside the United States you have more worker rights than people born in the United States?
This has always been about fairness to me, and holding out for this is absurd.
Of course much of this work stoppage has been absurd.
LAST.
MINUTE.
Max Scherzer
@Max_Scherzer
·
13m
I was in FL. We never offered the Int’l Draft. We did discuss it, but MLB told us they were NOT going to offer anything for it. At that point, we informed all players & agreed to no draft.
This is MLB muddying the waters & deflecting blame. Fans, pls hang in there with us.
—————————————————————————-
Jon Heyman
@JonHeyman
·
5m
Players made an offer late today: They’d spend the season working on a world draft and if it didn’t work out, qualifying offers/free agent comp would be re-installed at year’s end. This was Manfred’s idea Tuesday night but was rejected because it came after MLB’s 6 pm deadline.
But maybe there’s hope?
Max Putin
@bucsfan0004
LOL stfu race baiter
That system that allowed Moncada and Robert to get those bonus amounts was already changed. Each team now gets a budget to apply to international signings.
Because it limits who will have access the the international market.
it creates a signing bonus cap/slotting system – rejecting this aligns with the union’s goal of getting players paid earlier since the vast majority of players do not get paid later.
also i’m assuming the structure of the draft is inverse order of standings, so the international draft would reward teams that tank/don’t spend.
The owners want to control labor costs throughout baseball, from bottom to top. No mystery why the people who do the actual work of baseball aren’t in favor.
Because apparently the players that it would have affected in the past were it in place are pretty universally opposed to it.
It seems people aren’t thinking of what the players give up here – at this point Caribbean players at least get some ability to pick who they will work for over the following 6 or more years. A draft ends that.
Beyond that, how prominent was the discussion of the international draft in the negotiations before last night? Hardly at all. We all focus on the tangible details, the dollar amounts being bandied about – the quids – without much discussion of the pro quos which seem to be the points that throw a monkey wrench into things.
I agree MLB / owners have made positive moves, particularly on the minimum salary where the players had the public’s support, but they also seem to be the source of most of the info we hear in public as well. And don’t forget, the players initially wanted some earlier access to Free agency, which they put aside, and far more guys reaching arbitration sooner, which they put aside. Those are also concessions, and larger ones than $10 million bonus pool moves here or minimal CBT increases there. And progress has been ,made in those areas too. But MLB moving form a $30 to $40 mil bonus pool is somehow more meaningful than the players moving form $100 mil to $65. Frankly I think the players should take something close to the owners number there too.
Just remember there’s 2 sides to this coin.
Rusney Castillo
The players are demanding a big win on every single point. At this point, this is all on them, 100%.
A lot of this is based (predictably) on Tony Clark allowing MLBPA to get hosed on the last CBA. He feels like he has to make up for that, so you’re right – he wants all Ws every step of the way. The result is another week goes in the dumpster
As frustrating as it is, I know most of us here will not be turning away from baseball completely because of this. However, I think it would be an awesome middle finger to these guys if Opening Day around baseball this year looked like 2020 with no fans. Better dust off those cardboard cutouts, fellas. Would be a nice gesture to symbolize the fan sentiment, even if it were just one game.
Not completely, but like in ‘94 I lost interest for a few years, didn’t pay for anything, canceled streaming for MLB like many others, etc. In greater numbers, that will hurt MLB. They will feel this financially, just as they did in the 90’s.
Etex: I cannot understand the logic that it’s “all them” when the owners created this problem by locking everyone out when they didn’t need to.
Oh you cancelled your MLB streaming in 1994? Wow
How do people still not get this? The owners triggered a lockout now to avoid a player strike in August, September, October like in ’94.
In ’94 the players specifically struck in August to make it hurt more and apply as much pressure as possible to the owners. They didn’t care that it would ruin the season and hurt the fans more than anyone. As long as it applied more pressure to the owners. The reason the MLB locked them out is to avoid another strike like that. Frankly, you should be thanking them.
Yes, I was way ahead then, just like now.
MLBPA totally at fault in this one. Their egos have just led them down the wrong path this time. Hard to believe they found a way to make owners look reasonable.
Owners bringing stuff at the last minute!!!
Nonsense! They tried to fix something under discussion, tenten. Pay attention!
This one is on the players. I have been on their side all along but the actions today are beyond ludicrous
The owners has a proposal on their hands, the players answered!!!
Exactly. Well I am sure they will change their tune when their checks stop coming in.
The players are a joke!! I hope the season gets canceled!!
More great writing. Thanks Anthony- appreciate it. Owners: please just cancel the season. Thanks.
I think we’ll see Opening Day sometime in April. Then I’ll do a little dance on yourass.
Cap and floor or cancel the season. Present that now and the players will accept present deal before the morning.
Cap and gown or cancel graduation
I am disgusted. I really believe the owners tried. I don’t even care anymore. I wish the owners had the guts to cancel the season
Why would you wish for season to be canceled smh
A Yankee fan since 1954 – actually wouldn’t mind taking this year off. We would be rid of Chapman, Britton and other high priced “stars” AND Gardner who I would never have to watch ground out or pop up again. I went and watched some Yankee players in the AFL this past winter – way more fun than these past 10 years Yankee games!!! Let the MLBPA take their members home with them and we’ll be happy watching MILB for a year.
Dodger fan since 1953 and I want to see MLB. Enough with the “cancel the season” bs.
People saying cancel mlb are the same ones checking in every 5 mins for updates about negotiations.
Harko: If the owners got there way the Yankees would not only be capped in spending but also not get upper draft picks, and have their ability to tap into top international talent removed from that draft as well. Which means the Yankees of the future would be the Pirates/O’s/DBacks/Mets of the past, through MLB regulations prohibiting them from acquiring top-tier personnel. So, you may want to rethink that position, unless you like seeing the Yankees artificially handicapped so they lose.
Cub fan since 2015. Go Cubs Go!
Cub fan since 2015. Look at my pink hat! Cubs are the greatest.
It might be a nice change to see the Yankees not make the playoffs, but they seem to be moving that direction w/o any help.
@Dumpster Divin Theo
You’re embarrassing us.
Stymee: That’s actually not true. They are handicapped in both CBT & draft picks & international spending. It will only get worse though. Which is precisely my point. They’re making this the exact inverse of the 50’s which is equally bad for baseball.
I am look at it this way if it’s just gonna be a half a season I figure might as well just cancel the whole dog gone thing All that major league money down the drain
“We worked hard to reach an agreement and offered a fair deal with significant improvements for the players and our fans.”
Oh, okay.
Not gonna dispute the players part. But exactly what are the significant improvements offered to fans? The opportunity to pay subscription fees to 2 additional media companies or watch fewer games?
takes 2 to ruin the game that was already on its way to ruin congratulations to the millionaires and the billionaires you’re almost there!
This is so ridiculous
Everyone blaming the players seems to be forgetting that this is a lockout and not a strike. Many of you really don’t understand what that means and entails.
Chris G., if there wasn’t a lockout the players would strike most likely in August and ruin the postseason and World Series.
This is the problem I have with you blaming the players. It’s incredibly disingenuous to blame them for an action you believe they would have taken 5 months from now if a series of hypothetical events takes place. That’s Minority Report stuff, man. At least be honest.
Owners locked them out. You can’t blame the players because IF the weren’t locked out AND they didn’t come to an agreement THEN they would’ve come to a position where they would’ve gone on strike, in your opinion. That’s such a weak position of argument it’s laughable & reflects a complete lack of perspective and objectivity in current matters. None of what you said is fact. And it’s a circular argument to boot. I don’t get the dishonesty to try to fool yourself. It’s….weird.
Obviously you don’t either. The players proved in 94 that playing a season without a CBA would not work. They simply waited until the end of the year and went on strike, cancelling the playoffs and World Series.
Chris was in diapers in ’94 and doesn’t remember.
That doesn’t mean they would go on Strike this Year. That’s just an assumption by you and others to include the Owners.
Well, it is an assumption. One the players could easily disprove. The owners would happily agree to work under the current CBA adjusted for inflation until next offseason if the players agreed not to strike. Of course, the players would never agree to that. All of their leverage comes at the end of the year.
From Dan Szymborski
“The players happily played without a CBA for two entire seasons, 1995 and 1996, without using a strike as leverage. There was a 1994/1995 midseason strike debacle because the owners stiffed the MLBPA on their previously agreed to pension contributions and then negotiated in such bad faith that a federal court had to stop them”.
But playing without a CBA isn’t being discussed here. What happened 28 years ago doesn’t automatically mean it happens again. Apples and oranges.
It would definitely happen.
It would?
Couldn’t the players simply say that they only struck in ‘94 because the owners locked them out in the 80’s? Your logic is disconnected.
Yes it means the owners beat the players from striking
Many of us do, cupcake. Many of us do not want to see a rerun of 1994. Without the lockout, the players could and probably would go on strike right before the playoffs.
FoxDave: I agree with nearly everything I’ve seen that you’ve posted / responded to on various topics. But, how is locking the players out, at this current juncture without an agreement, not a repeat of ‘94? There is no season as of yet. Maybe it will prevent a repeat, and if it does, that’s a good thing; but, if the season’s canceled they’ve simply repeated ‘94 with a much earlier start.
Yes Chris I understand it means the season is canceled
Since I’m from Los Angeles I’m a huge Los Angeles Rams fan and one of my dreams have come true Rams winning the Super Bowl At this point I’m disgusted with baseball
How do people still not get this? The owners triggered a lockout now to avoid a player strike in August, September, October like in ’94.
In ’94 the players specifically struck in August to make it hurt more and apply as much pressure as possible to the owners. They didn’t care that it would ruin the season and hurt the fans more than anyone. As long as it applied more pressure to the owners. The reason the MLB locked them out is to avoid another strike like that. Frankly, you should be thanking them.
Players walked the plank. They had fans on their side but not now. Most fans are moving on. This was the last hope. Enjoy it players you most likely just shot off your foot to save your pinky toe. Flippin idiots.
Once again, as a reminder, a billion is a thousand times bigger than a million. Not even remotely comparable. Unless you think 1,000 is comparable to both 1,000,000 and 1. Those three zeros are a big deal.
Thanks for the math lesson professor. Will this be on the final?
That’s cool and all, but so what?
Sounds kinda actuarial.
Yeah MLB players are basically poor. I don’t even know how they feed their families. Poor, meek, humble workers.
I’m done.
Me to, players crossed the line yesterday. Fans leave faster the people in Ukraine.
Now watching golf and NASCAR.
“Our second late night bargaining session in a week…” oh cry me a river!!! You could have been working to fix this in December but you sat on your thumbs and spun. You got work to do. Stop looking for a pat on the back. Put the time in and get it done!
Well, you have to have both sides at the table and the players refused to budge any back then … also they still haven’t budged near as much as they should have to be fair and the owners are working to get this done with different scenarios. The players have just whined they want more and more instead of looking out for the game. Heck three options to compromise and fair ones at that. heck the draft didn’t even have to be set til 24 either way!
This is how negotiations work. Progress is rarely made until everyone has their backs against the wall. Certainly is bad optics from the owners perspective but the players were always going to try and maximize their position. And they knew that owners weren’t offering the best deal back in December.
To the Owners: BS. We are not idiots.
Players: C’mon. Was it really just the International Draft?
Some are.
So you think foreign born players should be free agents but players who are born in America be subject to the draft.
Because no one in their right mind agrees with you.
This is what I can’t understand.
Halo11Fan – I don’t know if your post was meant for me, but NO, I don’t think foreign born players should be free agents but players who are born in America be subject to the draft.
No one in their right mind?
Wow!! So you’re speaking for the entire players union now are you?
The MLBPA is a union for all its members. Not just the ones born in the United States.
Perhaps, and this might be hard for you to understand, but perhaps all those American born players are showing their support for their foreign born brothers. Just a thought.
Nah! You’re right! None of them would be in their right mind if they did that!
The owners offered a deal to the players where the international draft could be revisited after two years. The players refused.
If the players refused because of this, then yes, it’s about the international draft.
If that’s the case, the players are going to get skewered. Because no one in their right mind thinks foreign born players should have more rights than American born players.
The system (baseball, socioeconomic, all of it) is not the same in the Latin countries as it is here. The league is trying to stick their grimy paws into international affairs because Manfred is a control freak. It’s not about teams and fans having equitable access to talent, it’s about Manfred and the owners having complete control over the lives and earnings of foreign teenagers.
That’s not true. The owners offered to forget about the draft showing it’s not really important to them, if the players would keep the profit keeping qualifying offer mechanism designed to keep costs down.and more money in owners pockets and hurting players chances at signing with some teams they might want to play for.
Quit acting like this was only about the draft.
Owners could have dropped the draft and kept the qualifying offer on the table and just remove the penalties for signing a free agent like they do in the NFL.
Tony Clark?
The game is played in the United States. The owners are Predominantly owned by Americans. The players are need a Visa to come to the United States to play baseball.
How on Earth is this an international affair? You think Japanese players go on strikes because Japan limits the number of American players on each team.
How on Earth do foreign born players have more rights than American born players? If you don’t see that, you are beyond hope.
The owners said they were going to give up draft compensation last December.
According to this site, the owners would have signed an agreement, where the international draft could be placed on hold and revisited in two years.
The players hated the idea.
This sounds like it’s all about the draft. If data comes out to the contrary, I will change my opinion, however my guess is you will NEVER change your opinion.
11:46 pm: Nicholson-Smith reiterates that the international draft has become a key sticking point (Twitter links). He hears that the league considers it a crucial feature of any agreement but the union still has concerns about its inclusion in a deal.
What do you think this about? Meal money?
LOL they don’t care about minor league players. I am guessing the agents are controlling the players. Agents lose out of there is a draft.
Perhaps if there was a Players Union in 1965 when the domestic draft was unilaterally instituted by the teams, there wouldn’t have been what we see now either.
Now the players have greater ability to negotiate such. They have every right to exercise it.
Do you think the companies that hire you should be able to keep you for 6 years if they want? Yeah baseball players are paid far more than almost all of us, but that wasn’t always the case.
“Do you think the companies that hire you should be able to keep you for 6 years if they want? ”
That would be a good argument except for one thing. That’s EXACTLY what the players and Marvin Miller wanted.
They didn’t want a flooded market.
The foreign born players will have whatever is collectively bargained for. Nothing more and nothing less.
But since you seem to be so fixated on them having more rights than American born players, then let’s say the players accept the QO and the owners agree with no draft.
Now in that situation, not only would the players have done this, but the owners would be agreeing to it too.
Man that’s even more people not in their right mind! According to you that is.
If the owners offered that scenario which they did, how important really, is the international draft to them?
There is a work stoppage. To fall on your sword because you refuse one of the three options is screwed up.
I don’t see why foreign-born players should have more rights than American born players. I’ve never liked it, I’ve always wanted an international draft, but it is what it is.
But when you hand the players three options, and they can’t pick one, they are being unreasonable. They are not bargaining in good faith.
If you can’t see the players are wrong, then I don’t think you are in your right mind.
I wish those American born players would show a little bit of concern for their American born brothers who are minor leaguers. But no, they get thrown under the bus at every opportunity.
The three options are called an ultimatum.
The owners said that they would make a complete counter proposal, but they didn’t. They made another ultimatum instead.
The players countered with an offer almost identical to one of the owners proposals, and MLB walked away and canceled two more series of games.
You make it sound draconian but plenty of people work under non-compete clauses which effectively locks them into a particular company by restricting movement to competitors in the same industry. Heck, a bunch of my bonus compensation is deferred as long-term incentives. My bonus this year was paid partially in cash, with the rest paid out in 25% increments over the next 4 years. If I choose to leave, I forfeit my long-term incentive cash pool. So while I can technically leave at any time, the whole point of LTI is to make moving on so painful that it rarely happens.
Oh … and players are free to quit playing ball at any time. They can cash out and do whatever the heck they want to do.
Well….everyone? Even Biden?
Hallo
The Owners tied this into the negotiation
“taking the third route would’ve given the league the right to unilaterally reopen the CBA after the 2024 season if the union continued to object to the draft.”
Therefore this CBA would have become Void & would have to be renegotiated.
They also, along with the owners, openly acknowledged & agreed that the CBT would never be a cap…. And look how that’s going.
Yankee, how is that going. When the Yankees outbid the Angels for Cole, didn’t that show it wasn’t a cap. When the Dodgers slowed down bidding for Rendon, and the Angels were able to add him, didn’t that show its working?
Isn’t the above scenario an example of exactly how we believe the CBT should work?
In this negotiation they were quite literally held up based on the owners trying to harden the CBT as an effectual cap. My point is that it works both ways. Many people here are so quick to point out what players have agreed to, or didn’t have in prior contracts while ignoring the owner side, but the contractual agreements work both ways, ie, the agreement that the CBT would never serve as a cap and would only be instituted, as you and I have agreed it should be, as a means to curb runaway spending.
I’ve been saying it this whole time Tony Clark and Max Scherzer are completely out of line. At this point the only thing I care about is that the players lose service time and pay for refusing to come to terms is the league
Don’t forget puppet master Boras
Do the players expect the owners to give them EVERYTHING they want? This is getting sad
If the players want to get paid i’m sure they think that
I am sure that Max Scherzer is one of the hardloners on this thing, based on what he said before negotiations started. Think about it. He is making $43,000,000 this year. If he loses a few million while he is virtue signaling, why does he care?
Hardliners!
Owners are being just as stupid. They could easily come up with a proposal, like the third option, but without the unilateral right to open the entire contract in two years again, which is unnecessary. Yet, they keep adding those extra management autonomy clauses in there. They’re doing it purposely to force this issue and you seem fine with that for some reason. The sword cuts both ways.
Yes they literally do and there are somehow millions of baseball fans who think that way too; that the only just or fair deal is to give the players everything they want. To the smooth brains in here, it’s as simple as:
“owners rich and bad. players poor and good. not fair.”
Anything the MLBPA asks for, they think they should get and will think the same at every CBA negotiation in the future. There is no benchmark for them that is considered fair. They think ball players who play a game for a living should be billionaires.
MLB has consistently fed the media a sense of false hope just hours before a meeting, but they continue to add in last-minute BS demands, then cancel games and point the finger at the players, and some of you swallow it hook, line, and sinker.
Manfred and the owners want your anger directed at the players in an attempt to pressure the PA into an unfavorable deal.
spot on Stevil, and the MLBPA is onto it. But as onto it as they may be, they should also consider at this point accepting the compromises that have been made by MLB. Time to stop the chest-beating on both sides.
I’m both sad and glad I dropped my season tickets this year, purely out of principle, but I still want the game to be played, full season preferably. The inability of both sides to find an equitable division of the massive wealth is hurting the greatest sport and it’s hard to fathom. Reminds me of US Congress, lacking leadership, throwing it all away.
So, you’re acknowledging that the owners are being deceptive, but think the players should just accept that because they’re close(r) on everything else?
This international draft issue is about the future of every single young foreign-born player that doesn’t have access to US schools or the Rule-4 draft. It’s not something you just settle in a last-minute toss-in where the owners dictate the limits without contest.
This deserves time and research. It doesn’t have to be in this CBA, either. Heck, nothing would even go into place until 2024 at the earliest, anyway.
No not saying that at all. The owners are locking the players out after all. What I am saying is that if the players and owners don’t budge then we don’t have MLB. And the prideful owners and players can sit with me in the stands of my boys LL games instead, and contemplate yachts past.
The PA has budged–a lot. MLB hasn’t made any major concessions without trying to include something new that benefits them, and an international draft isn’t a small issue that should be handled lightly.
This ultimatum was yet another ploy by MLB to direct fans’ anger at the players. The blame isn’t equal and I’m not interested in arguing this any further.
Especially when you’re arguing with yourself?
Yes, it’s almost as if both sides are trying to use PR leaks to their advantage. Shocking.
The league knew full well they wouldn’t agree to the draft and wouldn’t agree to keeping draft pick compensation
They tried to use the international draft against the draft pick compensation
This is the owners fault. They’re not getting rid of draft pick compensation,’which by the way, everyone hates
because the League wants to use it as leverage to get what they want with the CBT
Napoleon Dynamite said it best about the players: IDIOTS!!!
Owners*
Is that where you ran out of gas, right after the asterisk? Thanks for playing.
FoxDave, that made me laugh, man. Lol…
“the league’s efforts to tie the introduction of a draft for international amateurs to the elimination of the qualifying offer proved a sticking point in discussions.”
If the players are going are not agreeing to a deal because they want foreign born players to have more rights than American born players, this is going to get ugly for the players very quickly.
So much billionaire anti-worker anti-labor boot-licking in the MLBTR comment section. The League instituted this lockout, they’re setting the arbitrary deadlines, and they’re the ones withholding baseball from its fans.
If they cared about the fans, they’d make seeing a game affordable and accessible — growing MLB’s audience while still making absurd amounts of money; but they choose to optimize ticket prices so that partially-filled stadiums with pricey tickets and concessions is better for the bottom line than full stadiums with reasonable ticket prices.
Not saying the MLBPA are a bunch of saints or that many MLB players don’t have a great life with financial security (the minor leaguers are the ones who are really getting shafted in professional baseball). But to hate on the players for wanting to reverse the owners’ increasing proportion of the profits is silly… especially considering the players are both the product and the workforce.
The 1981 season was a joke because the two best records in the NL didn’t make the playoffs yet a team under 500 in the AL did.
The 1972 Red Sox finished 1/2 game back, because they played one less games than the Tigers because of a players strike.
1994 Season was cancelled.
Anyone who doesn’t realize why the owners had to lockout to prevent a perverted season is a lost cause.
Oh please – this is just completely over the top.
The owners said they had to do a lockout to add urgency to the negotiating process – then didn’t schedule a negotiation for 6 weeks. Saying the strikes of over 25 years ago determine what needs to happen today makes you a lost cause.
And apparently your team’s owner Arte needed to paly hardball on the CBT threshold to protect baseball – against him signing Pujols to another 10 year contract disaster?
It is not 1981 or 1994. The players are not on strike. The owners locked them out. The owners added thing to the negotiations at the last minute that they dropped 3 months ago because the player’s union had said unequivocally, NO!! The owners agreed to drop the draft pick compensation for QO players a month ago and didn’t tie it to the international draft then. Basically, they lied and reneged on their agreement. That you support people like that says a lot about your own character.
There is a federal court ruling that the owners bargained in bad faith, in a suit brought by the NLRB. Blame can not be shifted on that one.
MLB did not “have” to lock out the players. They wanted to lock out the players, wanted to cancel games, and wanted to delay six weeks in order to gain leverage. It’s all tactics over baseball.
The boot licking rhetoric was tiresome months ago. Come up with something better to say.
“boot licking rhetoric”
Thank you for providing an example for the word rhetoric.
Sorry cursed rangers or whatever, halo is absolutely right.
I might agree, if certain players weren’t making upwards of $60,000 per plate appearance.
BoOt-LiCkInG
Lol you believe in the false assumption that the players somehow own the league…
I believe the players can refuse to sign an agreement. I don’t believe they are slaves and therefore forced to work.
And if they didn’t sign the agreement because they want foreign born players to have more rights than American born players, then the players are in the wrong.
I think everyone in their right mind would think the same thing.
Your hate for the foreign born is pathetic. Don’t you realize that except for a few that are 100% from a North American aboriginal nation, EVERYONE here is either foreign born or descended from foreign born. Do you really hate yourself and your parents that much?
Stop projecting your own issues on everyone else
Talk about licking the players boots! You believe the false assumption that the players should own the league!
The players are PART of the workforce.
Look, owners are at fault for this work stoppage. Players were at fault in ‘94 and I had no sympathy for them. They stopped the work by locking everyone out. But, the owner group provided three options to the players. Players haven’t accepted terms. I don’t agree with the options, personally, but the players have an opportunity here nonetheless, and they aren’t prohibitive options.
Owners had several instances of definitive fault here. To say otherwise is to deny facts. The players are now returning those decisions by trying to leverage this scenario because MLB doesn’t want to lose that TV money.
MLB shouldn’t have instituted the lockout
MLB shouldn’t have committed a hardline stance to the CBT
Players shouldn’t have committed such a hardline stance to the player pool amount
Players are drawing the lien in the sand on the wrong issue here – not because I agree with any of the options – I don’t. But because it’s an un-winnable position, imo.
As I said in the beginning, no matter how this plays out, owners lose in the long run. Publicly, with fandom, and the long-term health of the sport.
Hahahaha. Funny, I feel the exact opposite way. I find leftists like yourself utterly insufferable. There is literally no benchmark that people like you will be satisfied with. In your eyes, the owners will always be the evil, greedy, Marxist caricature of the capitalist pig, and the players will always be the poor, downtrodden, oppressed and exploited workers.
The owners are billionaire businessmen and women who purchased baseball teams.
The players
Catuli Carl — I just don’t see the need to be projecting anything about people’s political views in this forum. It just weakens your stance as a commenter.
I’m interested in everyone’s view, though I don’t agree with everyone. But I don’t need to call them names or presuppose their motivation.
I see the need very clearly.
OP claimed anyone who doesn’t think the players should get everything they want is an “anti-worker anti-labor bootlicker.” This absurd and asinine mischaracterization is borne from a warped, delusional leftist sociopolitical mindset that is rampant in conversations like these and especially among left wing sports journalists who would despise the owners and cry oppression even if the owners were paying players billions and giving them an 80/20 split of profits.
Yes the leftist, Marxist sentiment is at the root of the problem and is the main stumbling block keeping people from reason and common sense.
Hyperbole alert, first and last warning.
My comment apparently got cut off and for some reason it won’t let me edit it.
…The players are millionaires or near millionaires who play a game for a living. They are entertainers. The framing of a bunch of millionaire men who play a game for a living as being the trodden-upon workers of the world is beyond asinine.
The players want win because they screwed up the last one. Both are to blame but the players are being ridiculous and if this is considered late in the day to figure out the labour agreement why should anyone care?
The owners should simply say this was there last offer. Take it or cancel the season indefinitely. That’s it
They’ll never do that. They won’t get their billions from ESPN, Apple, NBC, TBS, Fox, etc.
And then the owners also know the will lose the later court battle. They aren’t stupid.
Boycott MLB whenever it begins (and that includes watching games on TV). Show the players and the owners that the REAL POWER belongs to the people who previously: bought game tickets, bought concessions, bought merchandise and watched games on TV.
And just for good measure – Boycott the NFL, NBA, & NHL. There are better ways to spend your time. Get out the “Honey Do list. Exercise. Go for a walk. Spend time with your kids. Reconnect with your significant other, Read a book. Resume or begin a hobby.. I’m DONE !!
Bye-bye!
Had MLB Extra Innings since 2008. Going to cancel tonight. I’m tired of this crap. Go frick yourselves owners and players.
With what was offered, anyone would think that it was a done deal. Then the players pulled the I-draft out.
Everyone else (highschool and college) gets drafted. What makes one group think they’re above that?!
David Ortiz objected and what Steroid Dave wants, Steroid Dave gets!
Seems to me there is enough wiggle room on the international draft proposals from MLB and the MLBPA.
I believe we will have an agreement within the next 24 hours.
LordD99 drop it dude. I’ve been thinking the same thing, but it’s over man. Give it up. Watch March Madness, the new USFL, or anything else. It’s over.
Thank God for the NHL.
We’d better get a 24 hour settlement.. One of the national reporters said the most influential voice on the players side was Boras. He represents all the agents, and trusting him and his cronies was the mistake that caused these failures. At this stage get an arbitrator in the future to work out a few issues in two years, book the rest now and start the season.
Why is Boras even in the room?
Boras is not even in the room negotiating. No “national reporter” said any such thing. You may hate Boras yourself, but why lie about that? Its too easy to fact check. Some of us actually are reading everything that is said about this negotiation and we know what you said is not true. Not even Heyman, who is the mouthpiece for MLB on this., said anything close to that
Why are you in love with Boras he is the root of all this madness
So you’re saying when the player meet among themselves, Boras is not among them? He doesn’t have the ears of any of these players? I don’t believe that.
I was pro player, but this delay/cancelled games is clearly on the MLBPA. They could have easily “punted” the international draft issue and gotten back to business but no, they couldn’t agree even to that. The fans should be royally pi$$ed! Royally!
beyouo2215 — Yeah, but there’s this:
“3:48pm: Rosenthal tweets that the players find the possibility of allowing the league to unilaterally reopen the CBA if no international draft is in place by 2024 unappealing.”
Can you imagine he players wanting to go through this again in 2024.
I know I don’t.
That line alone is a non-starter. I understand why the players said, “Go f#@k yourselves, owners.”
Owners gave them three options, but players insist on winning both. Now they miss another week’s pay. Brilliant move!
People keep trying to say that, but its just not true. If the players had gone out on strike, then MLB could prorate their salary. Because the owners locked out the players, they cannot prorate the players salary without an agreement from the players. It doesn’t matter if the season is 2 months or 6 months. That is the law.
That wasn’t the only option. Frankly, I think that not getting the CBA done to preserve the QO system is just plain asinine, as is scuttling a deal because of the international draft when that issue could have been dealt with later. We may disagree, but the point is that there were many ways to get a deal done today and as stupefying as it is, there is somehow no deal. So at this point, I hope the whole season is lost. And I hope the fans punish both MLB and the MLBPA severely. I know that I am going to make a conscious effort to spend far far far less on MLB after these joke negotiations which have made one thing crystal clear – neither side gives a single hoot about the fans. And any lip-service to the contrary is just plain insulting.
You wouldn’t miss any games so why not just kick it down the road two years.
Do you really want to go through all this again in 2 years? Obviously, the players don’t want to.
Pete, I don’t think they would go through this. Two years from now it would be crystal clear why the players wouldn’t agree to the CBA changes.
Could you imagine the players striking for an issue that I doubt would garner a 10% fan approval rating?
It was a brilliant move by the owners.
And it’s now more of a strike than a lockout. The players could have agreed to play and gotten everything they wanted and refused.
Halo, you are pathetic, Its a lockout by the owners. Its not a strike. None of your spin will change that.
They could have left the draft and the QO as is, then, much better option than what you say they did.
You were never a pro player or you would know that the MLBPA has consistently said no to the international draft for 20 years. There was no punting the issue, because it has not even been mentioned since November because the player’s union said no then. That MLB tried at the last minute to tie it to something that they had already agreed to a month ago is simply slimy. If you are pissed at the players, you are not paying attention or you are just a troll.
I’ve been on the players side this entire time until today. The owners really did negotiate in good faith, granted past their fake deadlines but they truly were eager to get a deal done. The players seem content to take an extended vacation. I’m so over it all, at this point just rip the band aid off and cancel the season. I’m sure Boras has his fingerprints all over this as others have said. Baseball took a major hit today as many fans (myself included) saw the greed of our favorite players lead to cancelled games. It’s a unique place to be as a sport.
Bring back Bud Selig! Bud wouldn’t have allowed this crap under his watch. Baseball would have been his top priority, not lockdowns and strikes.
Wasting another year of spring training is in who’s best interest Mr Commissioner?
All Selig would have done is say, “What, wait a minute, there’s an impasse over getting a new CBA..? I had absolutely no idea!!”
Mlb and mlbpa really trying their best to lose fans lmao.
“3:48pm: Rosenthal tweets that the players find the possibility of allowing the league to unilaterally reopen the CBA if no international draft is in place by 2024 unappealing.”
Ya think?
Players are a bunch of idiots, they claim to be looking out for the future of their game yet they pull this crap. No wonder baseball’s popularity has been plummeting the last 25 years, ask anyone under the age of 18 and it’s probably not in their top 3 favorite sports. They’re killing their future and don’t care a lick, why should we????
I think owners today have enough to players.. if this is going to hold up a deal now cancel the whole season ..I don’t honestly give a darn if this isn’t done by today
April 15th will be the 75th anniversary of Jackie Robinson’s first game. Would be a shame if that can’t be properly recognized and celebrated.
Baseball has lost me. After all the BS of covid and empty stadiums mask wearing they had to make things right this year, but that didn’t happen
The owners suck, but I don’t understand why the players care so much about the QO. It only affects a handful of players.
The agents control what the players think. It Affects the agents.
They have a mind control device? Tell us more! I can think of some even better ways to put it to good use.
Propagandish is the new global language
The players don’t. They care about the international draft that the owners tried to link to draft pick compensation for QO players.
Where are all of the people that said that the 2020 WS was fake? Will you root for your team to win this “fake” season?
Asking for a friend.
This season will only count if my favorite team wins the chip otherwise it’ll be a Mickey Mouse ring. – the twitter generation
While an agreement doesn’t appear close, the season would still be 150 games if it started on April 14. That would be 90 more games than they played in 2020. Teams would actually play the other divisions in their own league (to some extent) and the postseason wouldn’t be played at neutral sites with no fans. The reason for this shortened season is beyond idiotic…but it would still be a far more legitimate championship than 2020 as of right now.
There were still some attendance and covid restrictions last season. It doesn’t really count in my book either. /eyeroll
I hope you’re trolling because last year was a full 162-game season and the postseason was 100 percent normal. They didn’t play at neutral sites, the stadiums were packed and they didn’t have over half of the league getting in the postseason.
Not trolling. A lot of teams had attendance restrictions at the start of last season. Plus there were still positive cases and players missing time which affected the standings. Therefore last year doesn’t count in my book. 2019 was the last real season. But that’s my opinion and we’ll have to submit it to the championship validity experts on twitter.
Players miss games due to injury every single year and the postseason had full crowds. Most teams don’t sell out most regular season games anyway. You have lost this argument.
Still on target for my 4-6 weeks lost guess, I’m which the players will still want to be paid for the whole season. Whiny millionaires playing a game for a living. It’s disgusting and they are losing the fans.
The players WILL get paid for a full season unless they vote to take a prorated salary because that is the law. They didn’t strike. They were locked out by the owners. What is disgusting is your take on this subject. It is almost like you are trying to say you pay to go see the owners of the teams.
Union’s need to be amended for the reason that they’re bullies to the members that are further down the line in the union. Agendas become more important than the “small soldiers” at the bottom. Lively hood of people further down the line is not a priority.
So the fact that the main points they’ve stood up for are an increase in the minimum salary, a bonus pool for those very same minimum players, and holding off on a draft for players that aren’t even in the union yet, makes them bullies to those down the line?
No change in free agency qualification (which they were angling for at the outset), no change in the arbitration qualification rules (which they started out demanding).. There’s really not much of anything in this for the top paid guys. You might argue the increase in the CBT is targeted for them, but this affects FAs and arbs across the pay scale.
Yeah yeah. Owners lost all credibility. Deadlines mean nothing. Don’t believe a word you say. Don’t care when baseball comes back. Just know that when it does I won’t be watching as much. Not in protest or anything. But with a less meaningful regular season I will just wait for the October madness tournament.
This is all on the players getting greedy. Let them sit and not get paid.
How do you feel sorry for the players minimum salary to be 700k which translates into $4230 per game. Whether their career is long or short they will make more than the average fan. Players talk about more money for newer players, if they really cared they would be fighting for the minor leaguers making 800 a month.
Can’t feel sorry for the owners who pass the cost to the fans with ridiculous ticket prices, $12 beers, $8 dollar hotdogs etc.
Both sides are screwing the fans and the economy’s of Arizona and Florida who for the 3rd year in a row are getting cheated out of a full spring training. Tired of millionaires and billionaires crying poor mouth.
Get rid of the antitrust exemption and the lock out would end almost immediately. Baseball is a business. Treat it like all other businesses.
I believe it’s time for the union to fire Tony Clark and to tell Max Scherzer to just go wait at home until this is all over.
I have backed the MLBPA’s play the whole way through, but this borders on asinine. The MLB made a fair offer and the only sticking point is the international draft. That was not even a point of contention until a day ago. Really, the owners made moves I did not see coming and the player move the line back five yards. The owners blinked, but that was not enough. This is on the players now.
Max Scherzer
@Max_Scherzer
·
2m
I was in FL. We never offered the Int’l Draft. We did discuss it, but MLB told us they were NOT going to offer anything for it. At that point, we informed all players & agreed to no draft.
This is MLB muddying the waters & deflecting blame. Fans, pls hang in there with us.
he forgot to add that we want more more more…. Max is Boras minion and in this instance he is wrong completely. So the players want no draft so the owners upped their offer and also added we want the draft to go any higher. they then gave three options to get to the middle of the road! Stop believing Scherzer as he is just a spin freak!
It’s been consistently reported the owners want the international draft and the players don’t. They haven’t agreed on it, but it’s been part of the talks all along and didn’t appear to be a red line until just this week. And MLB offered to take it off the table in exchange for a relatively minor concession on the union’s side, and instead the players said (after deliberately stalling past another deadline) they want to have their cake and eat it too.
Wrong Sao. An international draft has been a red line since 2002. The players have consistently said no to it every time it has been brought up in discussion since then. The owners have not mentioned it once in a proposal in these negotiations since Nov 15th. It hasn’t BEEN on the table at all since then. The owners agreed on Feb 10th to drop draft pick compensation QO free agents and suddenly they are demanding an international draft t “give” that up? You are completely and consistently wrong about everything, so either you are a troll just trying to get people’s emotions up or you are on someone’s payroll, because I cannot believe anyone is that obtuse. So which is it?
There are multiple stories on this website and others between December and last week mentioning MLB wants and has proposed the international draft. You are wrong. You are, in fact, the only person I’ve seen today on any site claiming the international draft hadn’t been proposed since before the lockout. That simply isn’t the case.
Final offer… sit and wait is fine with me. You don’t want to be paid… ok, we’ll wait and see who runs out of patience.
Just cancel the season already
It’s the only way the Mets will avoid 90 losses.
Ehhh I would say at most 89, Herb.
How do you like it?
How do you like it?
MORE MORE MORE…..
#mlbfansonstrike
This.
Both sides suck.
Why so many are living and dying which each failure is hard to understand. Weren’t so many of you saying that there was no chance a deal would be done now? That many games were destined to be missed at the very least? Well, that’s exactly how things are playing out, no?
I’m not suggesting that watching this unfold, even from afar, is fun and there has been plenty of blame to go around from the start. But there’s also no sense in drowning yourselves in it. It’s just sports.
Eventually, baseball will be back and life will go on as before. Plenty of other things to do in the meantime.
MiLB is just around the corner. *uck these *ucking * uckers!
MiLB which is owned by the very same MLB owners. Go see your local college teams play. Games have already started.
Is it a “Y”, Alec?
I think I’d care more if there weren’t going to be pitch clocks, a universal dh and half the league in the playoffs.
I don’t mind the first two as the game does need to speed up. And we were already headed to universal DH. But I definitely do not like half the league in the playoffs. That is awful and devalues the regular season.
And hopefully they get rid of the ghost runner, and 7 inning doubleheader’s. We don’t need carnival baseball.
December 1- with a counter offer due, MLB instead gives an ultimatum, take three issues off the table or it’s a lockout. They locked the players out and made no counter for over 6 weeks.
February 1- with a counter offer due, MLB instead demanded mediation. No counter offer for 2 more weeks.
March 1- MLB proposes “last best offer”, cancels two series when players don’t accept their ultimatum.
March 9- After promising a full counter offer, MLB instead issues another ultimatum. Players counter with a very similar proposal. Owners refuse to counter, cancel two more series.
MLB pulled the same crap in 2020, which is the subject of a grievance for $500 million right now.
This is exactly what bargaining in bad faith looks like. It’s time for MLBPA to file another grievance.
Dude did you drink the Koolaid
They are more than welcome to file another one. They will lose, of course, as they should.
The 1st one has been put on hold until this negotiation is over.
@Patrick, You have the facts 100% correct. The trolls on here won’t care. They will just keep on being trolls. Its sad, but true.
You have a really poor understanding of what, “facts”, means.
I don’t think they are trolls. If you notice there are a few that have posted before. Some I respect very much & have very good perspectives. But most interestingly, the most ardent hardliners, the ones who refuse to acknowledge any fault in the part of the owners at all, even when it’s blatantly obvious and unavoidable, seem to get……What? About 30-35?! It can’t be….~30 thumbs up, in each one!
Wow, that’s almost…. Add the 3, carry the 1, multiply…hm, and the total is….yep, there are in fact 30 MLB teams. That is some coincidence.
Summary of current ownership position: “We respect our players, but it’s our way or the highway, and if they don’t accept that then it’s all their fault.”
I mean, it’s just so easy.
Summary of the current player position: “We respect the owners, but it’s our way or the highway, and if they don’t accept that then it’s all their fault.”
The difference is some of us can read.
Whoosh.
Max Putin
Comparing a union rep of MLB to a violent socialist dictator, who just invaded an adjacent country, seems a tad hyperbolic.
Maybe tomorrow, the owners and the players union will meet again in New York in order to settle the labor dispute, ratify a new CBA and lift the lockout once and for all, so the 150-game-shortened 2022 season will begin with Opening Day on April 14.
All public relations, no substance. The members of each side seem not to be on the same page with one another. That won’t help.
The oligarchs are destroying the world. We have to remove this handful of rich criminals from control of our national sport. Why do we let them continue to take taxpayer cash — Tampa owner wants 350 million from taxpayers for HALF a stadium that taxpayers will not even own! — and shut down the game?! It is time to gain control of teams for the fans/cities/regions and remove these criminals. Just like the Packers and countless soccer teams the fans/cities/regions should own baseball teams. We can lift the monopoly and have the teams taken over (owners bought out at purchase prices) immediately. Then the money will flow back to taxpayers for all the taxpayer dollars (“socialism” for the rich we have been forced to live with!) we gave to a handful of rich guys and the game will belong to the fans and players. End socialism for the rich! End the oligarchs who are killing democracy, our economy and baseball!
Ga! You okay, man?
Am I missing something, or was the MLBPA counter proposal going to be either option 1, or option 2 come decision time in November? The players essentially said we will agree to the international draft or keep the qualifying offer, we will let you know which in November. What’s the owners objection to that?
Other way around. MLB offered the MLBPA that, and you’re right… I’m not sure I understand the objection.
“union proposed the elimination of the qualifying offer for next offseason with a November deadline for a final decision on the international draft.”
I don’t think they object to that at all, they just have an excuse now to not pay salaries for another week.
It came after Manfred’s arbitrary 6 pm deadline
Don’t worry, expect ticket prices to up whenever this gets resolved to make up for the lost revenue. Not even the Apple/NBC and uniform sponsor patches will stop that. It’s a shame a game so long passed on by tradition is dying.
Slept through Econ 101?
So? The fans are more than welcome to not purchase those tickets. If they do, ticket prices will drop.
I don’t know why so many folks seem to think that sports prices aren’t based on market forces. All the cries about how expensive things have become are a waste of time and energy. It is the lack of commitment to expressing one’s feelings through the market that is the problem.
Not that that wouldn’t come with its own tradeoff, but there’s no mystery here. The market will be exactly as it should be.
Something, like SOSDD, tells me that there’s more to this than the draft/QO. Trusting Manfreds statements has been a mistake up till now so why are we trusting him now? Next up, MLBPA giving statement saying this isn’t JUST ABOUT the international draft and QO.
Of course it’s not just the QO and the draft. Owners said they wouldn’t discuss other items until they had a deal in place on the draft or QO.
Players countered with drop the QO for this year and we negotiate the draft from now till November. If no deal on draft? Then QO is back in.
So essentially, owners cancelled 2 more series because of one “potential” year of no QO.
They might have come to a draft agreement and there would have been no QO anyway.
My guess is owners would have rejected other parts of player counter proposal too and this was a way to make it look like it’s all on the players.
My reason for my post, Lefty. Manfred smoke screen
Seriously guys. Such a bad read on the situation. If you only see things through the player’s eyes then nothing other than capitulation by the owners will ever be good enough.
Here is a quick recap of what happened through a different lens.
“So essentially, PLAYERS canceled 2 more series because of one potential year of having a QO.”
Both groups are being bozos about this. For the players, the cries for around “the little” guys is hard to stomach. The QO has nothing to do with anyone who isn’t in line for a $20M/year paycheck. The International Draft is likely to pay more players more money than the current system. The handful of players hurt by this is the international superstars. Finally, the league offered to do a floor, which undoubtedly would have helped those on the lower end but hurt the players on the higher end.
Owners whining is nauseating. But let’s not pretend that the players are virtuous. Their PR machine is cranking at 100% trying to make it look like they only care about the those on the low end of the pay scale.
Exactly. Players wasted all day saying “no” to everything, then MLB gave them three options to keep negotiations (which have been moving significantly in the players’ favor for the past several days) going and asked them to respond by 6 p.m., then the players deliberately waited until after 6 p.m. and said “no” again. Petty.
Instead of taking time to consider how to respond to the union refusing to pick one of its three options and instead offering what was, on its face, a player-friendly but not wholly unreasonable counterproposal, MLB got mad, shut down negotiations, and canceled games. Petty.
Both sides are clearly negotiating, and have been for a while, in anger rather than dispassionately. Bad blood and ego is far more responsible for holding up a deal than the international draft or the qualifying offer or a miniscule gap in CBT thresholds or the owners not creating a large enough brand-new bonus pool. They don’t want to say “yes”.
Pride kills
Deadly sin it is….
Have been almost entirely pro-player throughout this process, but this is irritating. They’re being overly stubborn now.
Sounds to me the MLBPA promised the International Draft for doing away with the QO. When they heard the backlash from Latin players they pulled the deal, or acted like it was never discussed. Owners then gave them 3 options, MLBPA came up with a 4th, owners said frick it and sit awhile.
NO. At no time in history did MLBPA ever agree to an international draft. Not a chance
And for what seems to me 5.5M for the 1 player is higher than the last 2 years anyway… And not one Dominican player reached close to that heck it was either a high profile Cuban or Japanese who was already playing that ever got those prices.
spotrac.com/mlb/international/
Reds, Not at all. The MLBPA has consistently said no to an international draft since 2002. The owners had not even brought it up at all since November 15th because they know that it is a complete non-starter. The union would not even discuss it because of the long standing position of the Latin American players that make up 27% of MLB. The owners had already agreed to get rid of draft pick compensation for QO players on February 10th, baseballamerica.com/stories/mlb-agrees-to-universa… and then they suddenly tied an international draft to something they had already agreed to do. Slimy move by the MLB owners and Manfred. Completely and unequivocally slimy.
From a MLBPA perspective… can they even vote on a non USA draft for people not in the Union? Seems to me that a court might say otherwise. Especially for foreign players.
Yes they can. Drafts are part of the CBA and thus can be negotiated.
It’s a permissive rather than a mandatory subject of bargaining.
The players are not required to negotiate the subject and MLB can not declare an impasse over the topic
A plague o’ both your houses ! Shakespeare
The amount of people in this thread blaming this on the players is absolutely shocking to me. Just goes to show how easy it is to sway opinions when you control the narrative. Sign of the times I guess.
maybe it’s you.
“you don’t share my opinion, so you must be wrong”…yup, that mindset certainly is a sign of the times.
Lot of player-hating on this site. People have a right to negotiate for the best deal they can get. They owe us nothing, except effort on the field, Owners have a right to negotiate the best deal they can get. They owe us nothing, except to deliver a quality product.. The fans owe nothing to either the players or the owners. We can choose to go, to empty our wallets at the concession stands, and to either support or hold responsible the pols who give away more of our money to the owners.
When this is finally settled, none of the above will change. And neither will we. The owners and players are counting on that.
They owe us nothing? The fans are the reason why they make the money they make. If no one paid for tickets, concessions, merchandise and cable then there would be no money coming in.
You didn’t read the whole sentences: Effort on the field from the players, and fielding a quality product from the owners. That, they owe.
Max is just a puppet of Scott Boras
The MLBPA is annoying me to no end. With that said, do the owners not realize that they could simply approve anywhere between two and six new franchises (obviously has to be an even number) and make money from the expansion fees?
That’s coming 48, but before they do that, they want to use every possible location for an expansion team to leverage taxpayers to buy them new stadiums in Oakland and Tampa
I’m fully aware but they’ve been saying that for YEARS. How long does it take for them to settle those issues for those two franchises? It’s absurd.
The players union isn’t fight the international draft, the agents are. You’re getting in their pocket. This has Boras written all over. Just keep the QO in place and no int’l draft…status quo on those two items. Let the players vote on this.
Yeah obviously the agents are tricking the players.
The players have consistently said no to the international draft since 2002. This has nothing to do with Boras.
Boras has everything to do with all of this, he controls the agents and players,heis evil for the game and has way to much power
Both sides are idiots. Plain and Simple. What’s a 1st yr player salary? 700,000? Do the owners rake in cash??? Yes.
All money grabbing idiots
Owners taking the risk. If the sport fades away, owners still have to pay their 3.60 ERA, 12-10, 150 Innings starter on DL with TommyJohn his 90mil/4yr contract
Whatever. They both need to feel the pinch of losing money since that’s all they care about at this point.
We need baseball now more then ever. Can’t let one thing like this stop the whole industry when all the other boxes are checked off. The MLBPA hasn’t had a chance to respond in full to one of the three options they have been offered. While the announcement happened, there is still hope!
“It’s frankly baffling that the league and union ended up where they did, given how much ground they’d closed on issues like the competitive balance tax, minimum salary and (to a lesser extent) the bonus pool for pre-arbitration players.“
Not really. The owners suddenly wanting to tie elimination of the QO system to an International draft put us where we are. While it is something I and a lot of people favor, the owners knew it was a non-starter with the players. Then they basically gave them 3 unappealing options knowing the players would not take any of them. That is not good faith bargaining and Manfraud’s statement is a bald face lie.
I don’t care if we lose more games at this juncture. I support the players and if we have to lose a season for them to get a fair offer from the owners so be it.
27 days til MILB starts. I know where my $ will be spent this year.
So you will be giving your money to major league owners who now also own the minor leagues? How about your local college team instead. They are already playing now.
This is all trash.
Cancel the whole season. If the whole season goes in the trash can, the owners can leverage that ability for at least 20 years. The players will realize, “ya know, $10 million is not as big as $12 million a year, but it’s better than $0”. No 162 games, we’ll now I’m advocating for 0 games. If they salvage the season, I won’t attend games. Baseball is too expensive. This is 100% the players fault and greed. They are pricing themselves out of the sport and it’s gonna tank. Players too concerned with social issues, huge turnoff. Players too greedy.
Or maybe I got it wrong. Maybe the players should all get $20 million base salary, stars get $60 million and best players in game over $100 million, CY bonus of a quarter billion, pass the increases to the fans cause they are suckers and will feed at the trough whatever scraps grace our narcissistic hands.
Owners fronting the dough, they take the risk. If players want to put up the risk then do insensitive laymen contracts. Their contracts are guaranteed!!!!!! This is your kid getting $300 bucks allowance for vacuuming and half-ass cleaning the kitchen, yet he’s still complaining he needs more.
Dumb greedy players!
Dumb woke players!
Dumb dying sport!
Dumb overrated skill with no contribution to society!
The players wrecked the sport
MLB will likely fire Rob Manfred and name deputy commissioner Dan Halem their new permanent commissioner and the MLBPA will likely fire Tony Clark and name senior director of collective bargaining and legal Bruce Meyer their new executive director, so both sides will ratify a new CBA and lift the lockout under Halem and Meyer and the 150-game-shortened 2022 season will start April 14.
lolololololol
Likely, as in, not a chance?
Players were responsible for the loss of the playoffs and World Series in 1994 and they’re responsible for this mess. Their greed has no end.
What part of the owners locked out the players do you not understand?
The CBA ended on December 1. Regardless of who did what, the season was not going to begin until a new CBA was in place.
The fans again suffer because both sides let greed and ego dictate the negotiations. Let’s face it the MLBPA and MLB could care less about the fan and they continue to demonstrate that all the time. When they finally get an agreement and I am sure they will then we will all go back to park because we love the sport but this lockout etc. has really made me think twice for sure.
What is the reason for the players to not want an international draft?
How about agreeing to everything they have so far. Revisit the int”l draft issues later. Twice a month throughout the season. No stoppage of play necessary
That would make too much sense.
owners win.
they’ve win their entire life, smart business people that make you blink.
players will crawl back and spin it, of course
So true. The owners not going to get hosed by greedy players. More risk running a business and gambling your wealth. Players don’t gamble nothing, they get paid while injured
The players have guaranteed contracts, no risk.
Owners don’t have guaranteed ticket sales.
I think that the ultimatum attached to the MLB offer is the hurdle. No one likes to get an ultimatum and will focus on that rather than what’s being offered. That’s where the pride and stubbornness that I commented on yesterday play a role. That’s my two cents, which is worth about half of a cent in this economy.
So now the millionaires are squabbling with the billionaires about splitting up the take? It’s difficult for me to work up much sympathy for those in an occupation in which the MINIMUM salary last year was $570,500.
… and will get to $700k this year.
You’re right. The longer this goes on the more I think why would I continue to go to these games. They’re just going to raise ticket/concession prices to counter the salary increase. Glad both the owners and players “care” about us.
Two weeks ago, out of principle, I cancelled the season tickets I’ve had for past 12 years. Will enjoy the game at other levels.
The really sad thing is this is shaping up to be by far the most pro-player CBA in years. And it just isn’t enough for a union that is (or at least its leadership is) still seething over being taken for a ride in the past couple rounds and determined to exact some sort of vengeance this time. They’ve already gotten so many massive concessions (an all-new draft lottery system, the universal designated hitter, millions of dollars annually in an all-new bonus system for pre-arb players, the largest one-year increase to minimum salaries ever with generous step increases, retroactive service time for high-performing rookies) and they just will not say “yes”. Now two weeks of the season have been scrapped and they are still demanding more concessions.
How awesome would it be for them to work out something and then all the fans refused to attend the games. Citing the total, complete half assery of how these “negotiations” were handled. Fans locked out mlb.
Fortunately MiLB-TV is auto renewing subscriptions’,Can’t wait for the Kannapolis Cannon Ballers!!!!!
The players should be careful. If this drags on too long there will come a time when owners would rather lose the whole year than to pay players a full salary for a shortened season..
George Brett hit .390 and struck out 22 times, still had to humiliate himself in hemroid commercials for extra dough
Joey Gallo gonna make $10 million for a measly 40 good swings
Dude, the players are overpaid
George Brett was underpaid.
It was funny watching George’s home run trot in 1980.
Owner revenue went up 30% over the last 5 years. Player salaries went down 20%. Player salaries are at a historic low percentage of revenue since FA started. Players are underpaid.
Won’t really matter if Russia decides to drop nukes or some other world war three provocation. We won’t have time for this petty bull*hit then.
Since there is no baseball, here is every team’s last championship…
Braves: 2021
Dodgers: 2020 (FAKE)
Nationals: 2019
Red Sox: 2018
Astros: 2017 (tainted)
Cubs: 2016
Royals: 2015
Giants: 2014
Cardinals: 2011
Yankees: 2009
Phillies: 2008
White Sox: 2005
Marlins: 2003
Angels: 2002
Diamondbacks: 2001
Blue Jays: 1993
Twins: 1991
Reds: 1990
Athletics: 1989
Mets: 1986
Tigers: 1984
Orioles: 1983
Pirates: 1979
SPIDERS: 1948
Brewers, Mariners, Padres, Rangers, Rays and Rockies have never won
Dodgers’ win is not fake. Favorite going into the season. Best record. Had to win 13 games over four series. Legit in my book.
They Dodgers have been the “favorite” and won 106 games a couple times now and lost. They won due to the shortened season, neutral sites and no hostile crowds.
Did the rest of the other teams not play in a shortened season, neutral sites or none hostile crowds? You’re saying only the Dodgers those benefits??
@LAD28
I’m saying that they didn’t go through the same grind that other World Series champions did. They played the best that year but it wasn’t a legitimate season.
Say what you will about 1995 being shortened because it was but the Braves won their division by more games (21) than the season was shortened by (18). They also played against all three divisions in their own league and played the postseason in hostile environments with full crowds in Denver, Cincinnati and Cleveland. Atlanta won 90 games that year. In 2020 the season was shortened by 102 games. While the Dodgers had a very good winning percentage, they only won a total of 43 games. It’s not a legitimate sample size.
Is a 17 game NFL season a legitimate sample size?
I’m a Giants fan and—as much as I dislike the Dodgers—I think their championship is legit. All teams played under those rules. The Dodgers came out on top.
I’ve lurked this site for years and you’re the only poster still crying about the 2020 season. Get over it. If your favorite team had won in 2020 you’d be the first one gloating about how difficult it was.
He must be a Braves fan. See him get defensive without any provocation over 1995.
I hope they fold the league and create a new one that isn’t run solely by the large market teams.
Or maybe they should split the league into two tiers and have promotion and relegation. Yeah, I know owners and players won’t go for that.
Most guys or gals here have no clue about EPL and the beauty of relegation. But yes, Donny, you are right on the money…
I love that idea. Minimum requirements financially to join & must be in a large market. I’m in. I’m just as tired of of structuring the entire MLB rules & regulations to generate artificial wins, and/or winning potential, for these teams as I am of these contract negotiations.
Strip MLB of its absurd anti-trust exemption ad we’ll see real changes that benefit all markets, large and small. Maybe even competitive leagues.
Very true. I do foresee that happening in the future. Too many issues for them to continue arguing to keep it, imo.
No deal…loss for both MLB and MLBPA.
Sad sad sad. And really stupid!
The bottom line to the draft is that every major sport has a draft incl. mlb … the only part of any sport not subject to a draft are intl mlb players… so let’s see now… Americans are subject to a draft in America, but foreign players are not…. Hmmm, plus they are fighting for amateur players who are not and may not ever be part of the union if they don’t make the big leagues… plus… if you are going to fight for someone to have a better quality of life , how about the minor league players, who live many to an apt , eat McDonald’s or ramen for dinner, and have to get jobs besides baseball to attempt to make ends meet… for those of you who think this is still an owner driven problem, look more carefully… players got almost everything they wanted… and more… the 40 million dollar pool wasn’t even a player idea… the owners thought it up… so 40 million to split amongst top 100 players not yet arbitration eligible os great, players don’t need to push for 70 million… the min salary going up almost 200,000 a year is great, sry I work 60 hrs a week and don’t make 100,000 let alone 700,000 for 8 months PLAYING a game… guys, face reality, the players are absolutely ridiculous and should be ripped by all media and fans
Its not a good faith negotiation when MLB adds a piece to the last minute proposals that the union has consistently been saying no to since 2002. Something that MLB has not once included in a proposal since November 15th. Manfred is a liar. Straight up.
Yep
It’s been in every proposal, consistently, and while the players haven’t agreed to it, nor has it been something they’ve threatened to blow everything up over. And then MLB said, “Fine, if you want to take it off the table, we’ll exchange it for the QO, or we can come back to this in three years. Let us know by 6.” And the players then waited until after the deadline before finally responding, “We don’t want any of that, give us what we want at least for this year.”
The owners waiting weeks to actually open negotiations was garbage, the owners turning up their noses when the players finally made a serious offer a couple weeks ago was cynical, the owners sending the players a nonstarter as their fake “last best offer” last week was just plain dumb. I am not, repeat, not, pro-ownership;. But for a change, they’ve been the ones making serious, substantive proposals this week, and the players seem determined to pay them back for past slights by refusing to deal in good faith, even if it means cutting off their own nose to spite their face.
It has not been in a single proposal from the owners since November 15th. Don’t you actually read the articles and tweets referenced on this website?
That simply isn’t true: mlbtraderumors.com/2022/03/mlb-negotiation-rumors-…
Did you bother READING the article you linked to? Obviously not.
“Talk of an international draft has been ongoing in various capacities for more than a decade, although it has not, to this point, been a feature of the current wave of collective bargaining.”
That’s very clever! Of course you know I *did* read it and I know you changed that quote, which is actually (emphasis mine): “Talk of an international draft has been ongoing in various capacities for more than a decade, although it has not, to this point, been a *prominent* feature of the current wave of collective bargaining.”
Hm. I guess it actually *wasn’t* that clever, huh?
Anyway, here are more links for you to make things up about:
mlbtraderumors.com/2022/01/collective-bargaining-i…
cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlb-international-signing-p…
yardbarker.com/mlb/articles/mlb_mlbpa_differ_on_in…
redsminorleagues.com/2022/01/14/mlb-owners-propose…
detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2022/01/14…
spotrac.com/mlb/international/
Says this is all a farce by the players as no 16 yr old Latino players are getting that 5.5M bonus anyway.
The Players like Scherzer and the other minions are liar over this not the owners!
So far down on the problem list now, sad to say.
The owners could offer each player 72 virgins and a kingdom in paradise and the players would probably still say “no”…
Cancel the whole season. If the players think they don’t make enough, then they shouldn’t play. These arguments about how much the owners make and the players want a bigger price is bogus. Owners put up the risk, players don’t. Players should be happy with the millions they get, they shouldn’t be pointing at how much the owners make. The players should want the owners to make big money. Dying sport, pandemic, fan base is broke, players woke.
Baseball will die
I usually feel like the Players should be happy with the enormous Money they get to make if they are Good Enough to make MLB and stay there.
However, I’m looking at the other side now. There is a Big difference with the Players that most of us working folks don’t get and it makes a difference. We go to work and make or provide a service to the Company’s Customers and we get paid for that and the profit made by the Owners isn’t really our business.
Ball Players like other Entertainers are in the Unique position of being both the worker and the actual product. Basically they provide 2 levels of work to the Owners. They provide the service of delivering the Product (Games) and what’s needed to Play the Game(Player). With that in mind they are entitled to more of what they generate then an average worker.
They also are right in drawing a line in the Sand regarding selling off the rights to kids in another Country that they don’t actually represent. If MLB wants to institute a Int’l Draft they should go to those Countries and Negotiate with those Players or the Organizations that represent them. They are trying to Back Door those Players in those Country’s by trying to control the Cost of them using the MLBPA as the Scape Goat. JMO
They’re both the same thing what are you talking about? Have you ever owned a business with actual employees? These guys are paid better than 99% of the population to PLAY a game. If player salaries weren’t so high ticket prices and food prices wouldn’t be so high. We as fans need to stop thinking the players are getting screwed here because they’re far from that. Greed has taken over all sports but this one is over the top. These dudes work the least as far as all sports go beside golf yet they make the most. In what world is Corey Seager worth over $30 million a year? He’s been a good player not great. The same goes for Correa. Mike Trout pocketed $37 million last year and only played around 20% of the season due to a strained calf. I said strained calf not torn not a broken bone a strain. He literally made the comment that if the Angels were in the race he could have played through the pain. Why did no one mention to him that maybe if he got his ass off the IL and actually played maybe his team could have had a shot? Yeah let’s give these guys more money.
I guess you have never been to a Disney World? The ticket, merchandise and food prices are ridiculous. Do they pay their employees millions? MLB prices are what people are willing to pay, not to cover player salaries. The owners would charge those prices anyway, and just pocket more. The players just want their fair share of the skyrocketing revenues.
The players make the money, just like an actor, musician, or investment banker. Those types of professions directly generate revenue, so they are not like the general population.
Squirt guns, jump ropes, horseshoes, cartoons, coloring books, paddle ball, yo-yo, and now baseball…
Things I no longer care about as I enter manhood.
Black&white TV, floppy disks, Blockbuster video, Disco, greedy celebrities, dial-up internet, and now baseball…
Things most people don’t care about anymore as they find other things to do.
Jump rope is still really good exercise.
No play=NO PAY
Yeah, at this point anyone who is still pro union is a total moron.
Hey owners, please explain why you impose the lockout, then wait 6 weeks to make a proposal, and now seem surprised that games are being cancelled. You could be right now, where you’ll eventually be in 6 weeks, and maybe gotten your full season. I hope both sides go hungry.
Hey Birdie
Because we have all the money and take on all the risk. And when push comes to shove we are better at Poker than the players…
What risks exactly do the owners take?
The one where they get voted into the group with a not-so-secret monopoly where there’s guaranteed profit. That risk.
All y’all backing the owners 100% are bots
Thanks, cupcake!
A brand new account that is backing the owners. Suspicious? Yup.
I’m sure you know all about creating new accounts to back an argument.
Y ‘all backin the bots?
It honestly just seems like neither side actually wants to be the one to say “yes” to the other’s proposal. They’re just going to haggle to death until one of them gives in, even though there’s barely anything left to haggle over. Where and when does it stop?
Everyone here is right. We’re all pissed. I say when they do start playing, no one go. to watch them in their expensive stadiums. There is a sense of rebellion going on in this country, and I say bring it to the MLB. We all have big HD tvs now.Watch it on the patio, invite friends, barbeque. Tailgate in your own yard. If we don’t make a stand now we never will.
The teams make most of their money off TV. You want to hurt them, stop watching MLB games and send emails to the advertisers and stations telling them that you refuse to watch.
All those $27+ trips to the beer stand at the ballpark last year convinced me that I can no longer afford to see MLB in person.
They picked a really bad time to get in a pissin match. I have followed baseball since the 65 World Series and have always watched, coached and been a big fan. Now, not so much…
Hire Scab players already! I’ll watch them.
They can’t and you won’t.
Who the heck are you to tell Bartis what they will or won’t do?
It’s absolutely unconscionable that we are here looking at more lost games without a CBA when all of this was so easily avoidable. I hope people do as I am going to do, which is plan to spend significantly less money on MLB. This ridiculous process has shown that neither side cares about the fans and that we are taken for granted. So, sure, people can still watch games and follow the sport. But we can also choose to not buy those overpriced tickets, or that MLB merchandise, etc., and to always remain conscious of the fact that every dollar spent on MLB is ultimately going directly or indirectly to the players and/or owners who have treated us like crap and who have jerked us around for the last 3 plus months while paying empty lip-service to the lie that both sides ‘care about the fans’. Bologna.
Tigers still tied for 1st place until 15th. WOOHOO
Just cancel the entire season.
Manfred is destroying baseball!
Yesterday, I paid $4.29 for a gallon of gas. Each time my wife goes food shopping it seems cashing in a small CD is a prerequisite. And these baseball players want more money added to their already top-of-the-chart salaries!
Whenever Opening Day arrives, baseball and its players may find fans all across the country greeting it and them with a raised middle finger.
You would think the players representing their teammates during these negotiations were a little smart or had a little bit of sense but the reality is that they don’t and the lawyers are just trying to pile up hrs to collect their fees when this is over. The draft is a good thing, specifically for the players coming out the Dominican Republic, the amount of corruption and lack of care for prospects under the current system is laughable.
One constant that both owners and players seem to forget is the fans. I will not be going to games and buying the overpriced food and beverages this year. Hell you can’t even watch on tv anymore without paying additional money for a subscription to a service
They will never agree as long as MLB keeps giving concession after concession. We are almost there and maybe then next offer will convince the players this is the final offer. Then the players can decide what they want to do.
Just have one draft.
Hockey does it and hockey is as or more international of a game than baseball.
They can figure it out if they stop trying to game the system.
One draft……based on winning? Sure.
Losing? No. Market size? No.
Any other rigged system of handicap-based structure to leverage large markets out of wins? No.
Pure lottery every year, every selection position? Sure, I’m in.
It is a shame when the Yankees don’t get everything.
“Fair” seems to have a very jaded definition amongst fans. They don’t need everything, but to remove everything is stupid. That leaves them at a complete disadvantage all the way around. That doesn’t seem right either.
it’s definitely time for an old baseball rule league
Can someone explain why the players are protecting non union members by their opposition to the draft. They refused to speak out out about the conditions affecting minor league players because they said they weren’t union members. We have a draft for American prospects why not for foreign prospects
Baseball used to be referred to as hard ball. This cliche was to emphasize that it was as tough as it gets. The players are getting schooled in hard ball. Time to become star pupils instead of the teacher’s pet.
WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITE!
You have to wonder where the tipping point for the fans will be. I suspect if the season doesn’t start by May 1st I can see attendance and ratings taking a hit with people being disgusted.
I wonder how much both groups are factoring the massive recession on the horizon with the record inflation and gas prices. This has the potential to make the 1994 season look like the good ole’ days.
Cheap advice to both sides: Fewer statements (and leaks) to the press, more negotiating. As to the fans…fewer pronouncements about who is greedy, and how we will never ever return, and more acting on it when they do. How about a National Baseball Boycott Week? One week, don’t watch, don’t go to games, don’t buy merchandise. Just a week. Spend some time with your family, go jogging or biking, read a book, hang out with friends.
I’d propose something more substantial, like a month, to really get both sides’ attention. Unfortunately, I don’t think we could ever organize the fan base like this.
Just play the game… they cant make money if the teams arent making money due to empty stadiums
This is beyond absurd now. I am so sick of hearing them both try to placate the fans. Neither side truly cares about us or they would have a deal by now. The way they keep digging in is really p!$$!ng me off. Latin players are around 40% of the baseball population and if they don’t want an international draft at this point. The QO affects less than 1% of the population and it currently exists.
The players should have taken all their wins and chosen option 2 and then worked on a joint committee with MLB and especially the Latin and other international players on details of what an international draft would look like and how it would work. Do this outside of the CBA and then if it is feasible, throw it into the next CBA.
This should be over now and they should be on their way to spring training tomorrow. The fact they reached a roadblock on something that wouldn’t happen for two years at a minimum is just ridiculous. Again, if they really cared about the fans they would have done this. Players have achieved their main objectives to increase compensation for 0-3 year players in a substantial way through $130k raises to the minimum salary and $40M to award for superb performance of pre-arb players like a Tatis, Acuna Jr or Vlad Jr. They kept the increased playoff field at 12 and have universal DH.
As far as free agent spending, they are raising the first year CBT threshold by 15% and there were 5 teams within $5M of the first tax threshold. Presumably, those 5 teams would be willing to spend the additional $20 now available before the first penalty amount. That is an additional $100M in spending by owners on that group alone. Plus the increase of $130k for about 500 players on active rosters is $65M and the pre-arb pool is $40M. If my calculations are correct, that is a minimum increase of $205M per year for the players or $1.025B over the term of the CBA.
Enough is enough. Let’s get back to playing ball and not hanging this up for 10-15 players annually. (especially when it can only impact a player one year at most in their careers).
No matter whose side you’re on (if any) it seems clear to me the owners are using cancelled games to their advantage. They always wanted to cut the season short.
Players should counter with refusing to expand the playoffs this year if the owners cut any games. If they’re going to stand up for themselves, let them mean it. But overall, with the huge increase in minimum salary and any sort of sizable bonus pool, the players have already gotten a better deal than in either of the last two CBAs.
Of course. The owners use the April games as a threat and the players use the playoff games as a threat. And, since I’d prefer to lose April, rather than October, I’m with the owners on this one.
I’d rather lose the expanded playoffs for one more year. Getting there ought to mean something. That said, I’m just saying that if the owners use this stick without any counter from the players, the owners have no reason to budge any more on a deal, which means it’ll take longer to reach one. I just want baseball back.
The players have shown they don’t care about competitive balance, it was all a lie. They don’t care about the worker at the ballpark, another lie.
And they proved in 1981 and 1994 they don’t care about the integrity of the game when they went out on strike in the Summer instead of the Spring.
I could live with this when I thought it was about the money, but this isn’t about the money. To lose games because of a qualifying offer, or worse, an international draft, should prove to everyone that the players are not the good guys. It doesn’t mean the owners are, but the players sure aren’t.
Games are lost ONLY because the owners canceled them.
Players made a good faith offer in response to the owners’ ultimatum.
It was almost identical to the owners’ own proposal.
The owners WANT to cancel more games because they WANT the leverage of adding a year of service time.
Nothing in this agreement seriously addresses service time manipulation.
Now, the owners bargaining tactics are an attempt to manipulate service time, in itself.
Can both sides please stop with comments like “best fans in the world”? First, baseball fans aren’t as dedicated as soccer fans in many parts of the world or American football fans in parts of the US. Second, and much more importantly, nobody believes them and nobody is placated by these comments. I’d have more respect for both sides if they just came out and said, “Look, there’s a ton of money on the table and we think we deserve more of it than what the other party is offering. We want to get a deal done, but it’s really so we can start making s%*&-tons of money again.” The honesty would be refreshing.
for everyone commenting one the owners initiated lockout, they did it to remove the leverage the players would have used later on in the season as they did in 1994 when baseball played with an expired CBA, and then the players went on strike in August.
without the lockout or a new CBA the players would have gone on strike. this year.
At least get that part right when making an argument.
Even if MLB could justify the lockout, they can not justify refusing to make an offer on December 1 unless the players took three key issues off the table
They can not justify claiming that the lockout would spur negotiations, and then don’t make a counter offer for more than six weeks
They can not justify not making a counter offer on February 1 and demanding mediation instead- they could still make an offer
They can not justify putting forth one proposal after another that hardened the de facto salary cap, knowing that those offers would never, ever lead to an agreement
They can not justify canceling opening day when they could have kept negotiating
They can not justify failing to make a counter offer yesterday, instead delivering an ultimatum, and then canceling games when the players proposed almost the same thing one minute after 6 pm
You can criticize the players’ positions on any issue, from the international draft to free agency compensation, but the owners’ tactics are the reason that we are at a stalemate right now. There is no excuse for the ultimatum yesterday and no excuse for canceling more games.
The owners WANT to cancel more games because they WANT the leverage of adding a year of service time.
Nothing in this agreement seriously addresses service time manipulation.
Now, the owners bargaining tactics are an attempt to manipulate service time, in itself.
If you still think the players are good guys, then your opinion is so clouded in bias it’s not to be valued.
Here it has become incredibly obvious the players are no better than the owners and all you can is go back in time and blame the owners.
It’s March, March forward.
There are no good guys here. Lots of issues I don’t agree with both sides on.
But the owners’ tactics are the worst we’ve seen.
Back in time? YESTERDAY the owners refused to make the counter offer that they agreed to make, and issued an ultimatum that was INTENDED to lead to more games being canceled.
It’s coming. They will now use service time as leverage.
There are no good guys, I’m glad we agree with that. The players had four choices, accept the status quo QO. Get rid of the international draft., table the topic, or cancel games.
The players, not owners, the players chose to cancel games. We are not having baseball because of the players.
This is March, not December. And I think everyone need to question how reasonable the players were being in December. My guess is not very.
Halo, that is just absurd.
The ultimatum given by the owners was to either accept an international draft that the players have steadfastly opposed since 2002
or give up on eliminating free agent compensation which they had been promised all along during these negotiations.
The two issues are not inherently related and were never linked until MLB linked them just yesterday.
The players never chose to cancel games. That is just absurd.
It’s coming. Manfred will start using service time in 2022 as leverage.
No, it’s exactly how I described. Table it was an option. The chose to cancel games.
I know why. When it became obvious what the issues were the players would have lost virtually all their support. It’s always been about disguising the issues.
And since the players chose the chance games option, it should be apparent to every clear thinking person if the owners didn’t lockout this Spring, the players would have gone out on strike this Summer.
First of all, the players are not obliged to accept the owners attempt to bully them with an ultimatum.
Second, they are not required to link free agent compensation, which they have agreed on since December, with an international draft.
Third, the players did respond with a very fair offer. One that did not give the owners ability to blow up the entire CBA if the players didn’t agree to an international draft.
It should be apparent to every clear thinking person that the owners bullied their way into canceling more games.
The players didn’t strike in 1995 or 1996, when there was no salary cap being threatened. They may or may not have struck later this summer, but the owners would not have their leverage. That’s the reason for the lockout.
Ownership turned over that card when they said at the very start of the lockout that its purpose was to put pressure on the players. They began the entire bargaining process with the idea that they could roll the union and force the players to accept yet another unfavorable CBA. Though a lot of fans will refuse to understand, the beat of bad faith has gone on from there. Ironically these highhanded tactics have backfired. The players remain remarkably unified, and ownership does not seem to have a Plan B for dealing with the union.
The sentiment that the union is at fault because the owners locked them out, preempting their presumed future strike, is such a bizarre position it’s so hard to believe it’s garnered this much support on this thread.
the Union would have gone on strike there is no “presume” otherwise the owners would not have locked them out.
The owners took away the leverage of letting them build a war chest.
They played with an expired CBA in 94 and the players went on strike in august of that year
The players will not finish a season without a new CBA, anyone not understanding that by now should step out of the conversation.
Seems you’ve stepped out of the conversation yourself, by not acknowledging the simple fact that ownership’s strategy from day one was to pressurize the players into taking another bad deal. The way to avoid a strike is to bargain in good faith. Ownership has a long, sad history of dealing with the players in bad faith. This is just a continuation of that history.
I’m addition to BlueSkies comments about negotiating in good faith, you argued that you’re not presuming by stating, “I’m not presuming” then proceeding to presume they would’ve gone on strike. It speaks volumes about your premise which is severely flawed.
They played on an expired CBA in ‘95 & ‘96 and didn’t go on strike…. So, your point is that you can select specific, arbitrary facts from 27 years ago to support a hypothetical event you believe would have taken place in the future, if ownership didn’t take such aggressive negotiating tactics already?
Yikes, dude, that pretty much undergirds the entire extreme pro-ownership argument on this thread and why it’s so comically flawed. It’s also why it’s a lose-lose no matter what happens while there is a lockout, and how their groupthink is losing them this PR battle.
Manfred is very good at his job, keeping in mind that his job isn’t caretaker for the game. He represents the owners and their money. He’s going to get another raise once negotiations are done and his deal comes up for renewal. The international draft has always been one of Manfred’s key wants for owners, so it shouldn’t have been a surprise it got elevated as part of the endgame and attached to one of the players’ key wants this CBA. I believe both sides made missteps yesterday. The players should have accepted Manfred’s offer to make a decision on the international draft by November, effectively calling the league’s bluff, and forcing the owners to lock them out over an international draft. They won’t. They’d have waited another two years for the next regular CBA cycle instead of locking out the players over a single issue when business will be booming. Perhaps both sides will come to their senses today and close these seemingly small gaps.
PLAYERS SHOULD HAVE TAKEN THAT LAST DEAL.
Papi, (god love him), is absolutely and utterly wrong about the Dominican and the International draft. It would be soooooo much better than the current system. And even he admits this. Literally his only protestation is a vague “it’s too sudden”… 2024 is not too sudden and frankly it should start next year.
If that’s the only thing that kept them from taking that last deal, that is a tragedy and Papi has wronged the fans and the players alike.
The players don’t care about competitive balance, they have been lying for years.
It’s all about the benjamins!!! Asked anyone who’s linked to baseball in the DR when was the last time Big Papi showed up and gave back to the community. The only reason why Big Papi is against this draft is that it has the potential to affect his deep pockets…. That is it!!!
Ortiz was pictures on ESPN saying just take it slow on the draft.
I think there’s a lot of historical opposition from the days when MLB wanted to have players at the mercy of the one team that selected them. The guaranteed bonus slots change all that.
The players last proposal to delay a decision was fair
This issue should not be linked to free agent compensation in any way. Owners just linked them yesterday, then canceled games over it. It’s BS
You and I agree for a change. Take it slow.
Which was one of the options the players rejected.
The players wanted to delay the decision? Is that like saying the Owners wanted to delay the decision on a pre-arbitration pool?
That option would have given the owners the ability to blow up the entire deal if the players didn’t bow to their demand by November. It was the biggest non starter of the group.
Bill Shaikin
@BillShaikin
·
2m
What blew up the MLB talks yesterday: if owners give players 8 months to decide on an international draft, what happens if players say no?
Can that seriously be a season-stopping question? The two sides are talking again today:
THIS! Blowing up the CBA if they don’t get their way is not an answer, or a viable option
What happens if the players say no.
We have 8 months of baseball, everyone can see what the owners’ concessions were and were not, and then everyone can see the players are full of crap when they talk about competitive balance.
That what happens then.
The last thing the players want is fans to have clarity.
Burning. It. All. Down.
They should
I’ll say it again…the only players complaining about the draft are “Retired Players” ask yourself why? When was the last time these players went back to their home countries and gave back to the community? I’ve been in this business for over 10years and what happens in the DR at the amateur level is sickening!!!
That hollow thudding echo? That’s America not caring.
Jon Heyman
@JonHeyman
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There’s optimism back in the baseball talks today. We’ve been here before, but the deal where the sides work on an equitable world draft throughout the year, then eliminate the qualifying offer once they get it done, makes perfect sense. As for the $, they aren’t that far apart.
Maybe there is some sanity left in the world of baseball
For the first time Patrick, I don’t care. This is the first time I’ve been upset.
If I’ve reached my threshold, I’m sure millions of other fans have reached theirs.
I was there yesterday when Manfred made the announcement.
This morning, I felt like- “this can’t be”. They’re not all that stupid.
When our local Food market (Albertsons) went on strike the workers who were so nice the day before stood outside heckling us as we simply went in to buy groceries. They even called us names. A month later the strike was settled and those same employees would greet you with a smile and say “thank you for shopping there.” I feel like this is how MLB is going to be. F them.
Owners are directly responsible for the lockout.
Both sides are equally or nearly equally responsible for the current lack of an agreement.
The owners are business men who want to get the best deal they can.
Their priorities are
1) profit
2) profit
3) profit
187) the future of the game so he can profit
287) Fans, the game, and players
The players play this game as a way to make a living. It may have been a game once but no longer
Their priorities are
1) make money
2) make money
3) make money
187) make up for bad deal last time
287) Fans and the game.
The owners are absolutely NOT negotiating in good faith.
However, the players demands have been beyond reasonable from the beginning. They want to make up for bad previous deals by demanding an increase beyond normal increases for a single CBA
If the players cared about Fans and the game they would ask for reasonable increases and benefits and negotiate accordingly instead of refusing to trade off one benefit for another and NEEDING to win each and every point.
If owners cared about Fans and the game they would negotiate in good faith and not try to stonewall the players and force them to accept a deal with a higher profit for themselves by giving ultimatems and threatening and canceling games
The problem is both groups only care about themselves and money.
Neither consider Fans or the good of the game a priority
Yeah, that’s exactly on-point for nearly all of your delineated reasons. It’s a very fair and objective assessment of this negotiation from the beginning, imo.
There is no old CBA, Neither side is obligated to it anymore and can unilaterally do what they want.
The players would not have finished the season without a new CBA.
If you don’t get that part of it at least, please step out of the conversation.
April ballgames don’t bring in much money? The Yankees’ home opener and first home series was to have been against the Red Sox. Even those who don’t follow baseball know a Yankees-Red Sox series is money in the bank.
And please, for the love of God, STOP IT with this whining and crying about “the fans”! If you want the season to start that bad, why don’t YOU get personally involved in the contract negotiations? Oh that’s right, it’s easier to have both labor and management stripped of their Constitutional rights just to please a noisy few who think they’re entitled to watch baseball. That’s how things work in authoritarian countries such as Russia.
Seriously, some teams make money in April, and some don’t.
Obviously, Yankees—Red Sox always makes money.
One-off result does not mean much.
Opening day is also fairly good if it’s not snowing or winter conditions.
Weekdays in Miami or Tampa Bay not so much. Snow in Baltimore and Pittsburgh don’t draw well either.
Overheard conversation today:
CBA negotiator: OK, Stud, we could have a deal with the Greedy Owners, want to hear the details?
Player: Naw, just how much more money will I get?
Be interesting to see how fans react once they start playing again. I know several of us have attended opening day and there is a lot of planning that goes into it. Vacation time off from work, traveling, people coming to meet together from different locations. Taking the kids to Spring Training during Spring break. Why wasn’t this all settled in the Winter? Baseball is going to suffer from this and when the butts aren’t in the seats the owners and players will be to blame.
I wish that would be the case.
Sure you are right many fans will not attend what was previously rescheduled because fans aren’t independently wealthy and have private jets.
But by fall attendance will be back and owners will be raking in cash.