11:46 pm: Nicholson-Smith reiterates that the international draft has become a key sticking point (Twitter links). He hears that the league considers it a crucial feature of any agreement but the union still has concerns about its inclusion in a deal.
11:26 pm: Jon Morosi of MLB.com tweets that the league has indeed received the MLBPA’s counterproposal and is currently reviewing it.
11:20 pm: Chelsea Janes of the Washington Post tweets that both the league and union are meeting amongst themselves at the moment. The plan is to continue negotiations even though MLB’s imposed midnight deadline has passed on the East Coast. It’s not known whether the union has yet officially made its counteroffer.
10:14 pm: Nicholson-Smith hears that the union has discussed the possibility of lowering its demand on the pre-arb bonus pool to $70MM this season, followed by $5MM raises annually. That’d still be a rather significant gap above the league’s proposed flat $40MM mark, although it’d be down $10MM — the same amount of MLB’s most recent move — from its last offer.
10:10 pm: Ben Nicholson-Smith and Shi Davidi of Sportsnet report (Twitter links) that some players are “encouraged” by the league’s movement on core economics. However, the union has expressed concern about the possibility of an international draft, which would inherently involve those players no longer getting a choice of their first employer. That’s been of particular concern to some Latin American players, according to Sportsnet.
Jon Heyman of the MLB Network reports that the union will soon send back a counteroffer, with multiple reports indicating tonight’s discussions could carry over into the early morning hours. Nicholson-Smith describes the international draft/qualifying offer as the biggest obstacle, hearing that the sides are “close” on the numbers for things like the CBT and pre-arb bonus pool (Twitter links).
9:35 pm: Sawchik adds that the “gap has closed” today, but he cautions there are “still issues to work through.” Michael Silverman of the Boston Globe tweets that some on the players’ side don’t believe a deal is close to being finalized. The union is still reviewing the terms of the league’s offer.
9:17 pm: MLB’s proposal contained a 12-team postseason field, reports Travis Sawchik of the Score (on Twitter). The union was only amenable to a 14-team playoff that would’ve introduced the “ghost win” for division winners, according to Sawchik, an idea that proved a non-starter for the league.
8:44 pm: Drellich and Ken Rosenthal report that the league has proposed a bonus pool that would hold flat at $40MM each season throughout the terms of the CBA. That’d involve a $1.33MM annual payment from each of the league’s 30 teams, which would be counted against every club’s luxury tax calculations. The Athletic also reports the year-over-year breakdown the league is offering on both the base tax threshold and the league minimum salary (annual CBT and minimums, respectively):
2022: $230MM, $700K
2023: $232MM, $715K
2024: $236MM, $730K
2025: $240MM, $750K
2026: $242MM, $770K
Additionally, Drellich and Rosenthal report a pair of the important conditions the league has attached to its most recent proposal (Twitter links). Most notably, MLB is hoping to introduce a fourth level of penalization to the luxury tax thresholds. Under the last CBA, there was a base tax threshold (set at $210MM in 2021) followed by levels of surcharge taxes for clubs that a) exceeded the tax by between $20MM and $40MM and for b) clubs that exceeded the tax by more than $40MM, with clubs greater penalties for reaching each tier. The league’s latest proposal would add a third surcharge level for teams that go more than $60MM above the base tax marker (with presumably even more penalties) in an obvious effort to curtail teams from blowing by the thresholds, as the Dodgers did last year and as many believe the Mets are prepared to do in 2022.
Additionally, MLB is tying the introduction of an international draft to the elimination of the qualifying offer. Removing draft pick compensation for signing free agents has been a goal of the union’s throughout the process. Drellich hears that MLB is also pursuing expedited authority for all rules changes, which would only be made over an offseason.
The Athletic reports a few more minor provisions of the league’s last offer. MLB is willing to make the first six picks of the domestic amateur draft determined by lottery — it had previously been at five — with limits on how many consecutive seasons a club could be eligible based on market size. The league’s proposal would also include a limit on the number of times a player can be optioned to the minors within a season (five), would grant a full year of service time to the top two finishers in Rookie of the Year voting and would award teams additional draft picks for carrying high-performing players on their Opening Day rosters.
7:57 pm: Yesterday, Major League Baseball set tonight as its latest deadline for a new collective bargaining agreement to preserve a 162-game schedule. The league and Players Association have been meeting throughout the day. The tenor and specifics of those conversations has been kept relatively quiet, although some details have begun to trickle out.
Most notably, Evan Drellich and Andy McCullough of the Athletic report (on Twitter) that the league has offered a small bump on the competitive balance tax. The league is now offering to set the base CBT threshold at $230MM in 2022 and would see that figure rise to $242MM by the end of a five-year CBA. That’s up $2MM in Year One and $4MM by 2026 relative to the league’s offer yesterday. Whether the union has moved on the tax today isn’t clear; previously, the MLBPA had sought a $238MM figure for the upcoming season that would rise as high as $263MM by the end of the CBA term.
That would appear to be a minor move in the players’ favor on the surface, although Drellich cautions the rest of the league’s offer is unclear. Yesterday’s proposal of a $228MM base tax marker was said to come with “major strings attached,” and The Athletic reports today that MLB’s offer contains “other issues players are concerned with.”
Without knowing the full terms of the league’s offer, it’s impossible to hypothesize whether the sides are making progress towards any sort of agreement. In addition to the CBT, prominent topics of discussion include the expanded playoff field, the extent of a bonus pool to award excellent pre-arbitration players, and the league’s desire to institute a draft for international amateurs. MLB has also pushed to expedite the process by which it could implement on-field rules changes.
The union agreed last week to give the league authority to more quickly implement a few specific changes — namely a restriction on defensive shifts, larger bases and a pitch clock. However, MLB is seeking broad autonomy to unilaterally implement any on-field rules alteration within 45 days of informing the union. Russell Dorsey of Bally Sports tweeted this afternoon that expedited window was among the conditions attached to the league’s willingness to move the luxury tax upwards (although it’s unlikely to be the only tradeoff).
Dorsey also adds that the league may be targeting some form of “penalty for excessive spending.” What form that would take isn’t clear, although the union adamantly pushed back against the league’s push earlier in negotiations for stricter penalties for teams that exceeded the luxury tax. MLB agreed to take those off the table, but it’s possible the league is hoping to reintroduce something to that effect in exchange for an increase in the thresholds themselves.
Regarding the bonus pool, there was an immediate $50MM gap at last check. MLB had offered to allocate $30MM annually to that system throughout the term of an agreement. The union sought $80MM for that pool in 2022 and wanted that figure to rise by a few million dollars each year thereafter. Dorsey hears the league could be willing to go to $50MM on the bonus pool but is tying that to the union signing off on a 14-team postseason. The MLBPA has expressed amenability to a 14-team playoff but would prefer a 12-team system, and it’s not clear MLB moving from $30MM to $50MM on the bonus pool would be a sufficient enough incentive in the union’s eyes.
The parties continue to discuss these issues in an attempt to close the gap tonight. The league has already canceled the first two series of the regular season. It indicated those games could be made up in the event of an agreement today, but MLB has suggested another week’s worth of games would be scrapped if the parties don’t come to terms in the coming hours.
Can’t hold my breath much longer . . .
About time. Why didn’t MLBTR start posting this before? Late as hell.
It’s funny MLBTR refers to everything the league offers as something like “a small move” and then states what the union wants like it’s normal. They talk about the union’s ask as if it’s a standard and when the league offers more money than any MLB player ever got in history it is “a small move.” I feel naive. I didn’t realize they were this biased until the last chat where Mark Polishuk said “MLB owners take on no financial risk by spending billions of dollars to buy a baseball team.” Good thing he’s a writer and not an investor. He would be screwed.
So what do you think these “risks” are exactly?
I think because the value of the team goes up every year. No exceptions. Some by $200M/yr
yuppp
You got banned so you started a new account?
MLB pushed the Deadline back again! Lol it’s honestly laughable as this point
C’mon players just take the deal and play. You guys got a lot and set yourself up for growth for the next CBA. It’s time to play ball and stop the finger pointing
C’mon owners just take the deal and start play. You guys got a lot and set yourself up for growth for the next CBA. It’s time to play ball and stop the finger pointing.
Owners originally set the CBT at 214-220. Players wanted 238-263. Looks like it is now 230-242. That’s bargaining. Give and take. Pre arb pool was non existent. Now, it’s at 30 million with the possibility of going to 50 million with a 14 team playoff. Take the deal players. You won. The owners are always going to make money and get over on you, but you won this round.
Depends on what other strings are attached.
If they add draft pick loss to exceeding luxury tax threshold than the union lost. Owners already get expanded playoffs and international draft. Those would be big wins for owners.
I have to agree. I’ve seen a lot more movement on the owners side than the union’s side recently. I think a poll of MLBTR users would have shown that none of us would have ever guessed the players would have received what MLB is offering right now.
Nebraska – That’s because the Union already gave up most of their biggest asks, like increasing super 2 to 75% of the pool and cutting arbitration from 6 years to 5 years. Those were big asks. What is being negotiated now is relatively small, and yet the owners are giving just an inch here and there. They aren’t moving much.
Also, minimum salary up from 570K to 700K. You won players. Sign the stupid deal.
I think they were going to sign until Boras showed up. I watched him show up and then everything fell apart when he left. He wasn’t even supposed to be there. He’s not part of the union.
LOL. The players were never going to win these negotiations.
Reds Fan In MS: “Also, minimum salary up from 570K to 700K. You won players. Sign the stupid deal.”
In 1994 MLB min salary was $109,000 and avg franchise value was $130 million.
The avg franchise today is worth $2.2 Billion.
If minimum salaries rose that fast, the minimum salary today would be almost $2 million.
The owners won. Why are they still fighting? Just pay the players and enjoy your victory.
He is a paid representative for the players.
The owners end game is to weaken the union.
Why would the salary of the players rise in lockstep with the market value of the team? That is an apples-to-oranges comparison. A better comparison would be league revenue, but that isn’t exactly right either.
If household income had increased at the same rate as MLB pay, the average household income would be $1.3M instead of $68K. If MLB pay had increased at the same rate as household income, the average pay for MLB players would be 5% of what it is today.
Letsplayball: “If household income had increased at the same rate as MLB pay, the average household income would be $1.3M instead of $68K. If MLB pay had increased at the same rate as household income, the average pay for MLB players would be 5% of what it is today.”
Anyone pretending like the connection between US average income and MLB player income is anywhere near as relevant as the connection between player salaries and rising team values is just being intentionally obtuse.
Not sure what year you are starting in, so lets start in 2017, the first year of the previous CBA. If the average household income of $60,336 in 2017 had moved at the same rate as player salaries it would have decreased by more than 20% to $48,268. If household incomes had increased at the same rate as MLB revenue the average household income would be $78,437. Those are real numbers. Not the make believe BS you posted. census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/publications…
It shouldn’t. It should rise in relation to the increases in league REVENUE.
What would your income have risen by if it rose with the value of your home? Guess you’re under paid!
I agree but he represents a number of players who are doing the negotiating.
The reason salaries increased is also league revenue increased. That is why we are here. How will the league and players split the extra income?
They all want a piece of it.
I’d prefer the players cave on the bonus pool and stay at $30M if it’s tied to further postseason expansion. It’s not worth selling out for an additional $20MM if it means expanding the postseason from 12 to 14 teams.
That’s the way the players were feeling until Boras showed up. He convinced them that only the CBT mattered and let the playoff expansion go because that is more money in his pocket. The two sides were close to a deal like you are talking about before Scott Boras decided to interfere with a negotiation he wasn’t even a part of.
You missed the entire point. What the negotiation is about went right over your head and you are looking at individual points instead of the big picture. Maybe big picture is too much for you to understand. So here is the bottom line. MLB revenue went UP 30% over the past 5 years. Player salaries went down 20% over the same period. Regardless of what the individual points are, what needs to happen is player salaries need to go UP to match the increases the owners received the past 5 years.
@outinlf
I suspect your revenue numbers were not adjusted for the effects of the pandemic. And again, you provide no info on rising costs or expenditures. You may be correct, but if this is what you are basing your argument on, don’t expect me to take your side. Its weak.
If they lose big again what growth can they have?
The fate of the free world hangs in the balance
there will be a coup in russia. even many generals do not want the war escalated knowing how unprepared the soldiers were before the war. if putin is really ready to use regional nuclear weapons there will be attack by the west on their homeland. and it is easier to get rid of a mad man than to fight a grand war.
I hope somebody takes him out, that is the quickest and best way. But Zelensky supposedly backed away from his NATO bid, which is part of what Russia wants. This war has been way, way tougher than Putin thought, beyond any doubt. So perhaps it can end sooner than later, without more needless bloodshed. My friend’s whole family is in Ukraine, what they are going through is horrible, everybody now homeless, happened almost overnight. If the war stopped tomorrow, will take years to rebuild the damage to their cities and infrastructure done in one week. Praying for peace.
I hope like hell you’re right, aragon, with every fiber of my being, but boy do I have my doubts that’ll happen – a coup, I mean. I’m worried that the madman has already anticipated something like that and taken multiple steps of various kinds to protect himself and his dictatorship from such an outcome.
I think the citizens will have to feel massive pain. They are not there yet. In fact, Russian polls show they back him. The propaganda machine is running OT in Russia right now. It will take time. I’m afraid Ukraine will be mostly rubble when it’s all said and done.
Yeah, and it’s absolutely sickening to behold.
Surprised the Owners have come up to 230mil with raises considering they were holding strong at 220mil.
Players have gotten many things like you said. They need to lower they’re ask on bonus pool. And let’s get playing bball
Owners should counter with $0 bonus pool. Then settle on $30M with possibility of going to $50M
That fits with the idea that the owners are using the CBT as a bargaining chip, knowing how important it is to the players.
There is real concern among owners about runaway spending, which is addressed in stiff penalties at the top of the scale. But if the Angels and Tigers get value elsewhere in the CBA, they’re not going to be too concerned about some other teams spending $220M or $230M.
Time for Tony Clark and Manfred to GO
Msnfred is a hired hand by the owners. Whatever he proposes it is coming from the owners on the negotiating committee.
The owners think that time is on their side bwecause the players don’t get paid until opening day and April is the slowest month for MLB.
April is not the slowest month. May, June most years, and September have both lower attendance on average and lower TV ratings on average. Some of that may be because the home opening series is the highest attended series of the year and it may be because in April most fans still have hope that their team will compete.
Also, Regional TV deals have a 25 game buffer in the contract. Teams can sit out 25 games without being penalized. Teams will get that money anyway.
From the team side TV revenue + non-payment to salaries > weak April ticket sale revenue.
Yes, the owners are out of touch misers who don’t really care about baseball… but this is way more movement in the union’s direction than I ever thought we’d see. It’s time for the players to figure out that the 2022 CBA changes are actually a decent amount of progress that they can try to build on in five years, and that they need to get out from under Boras’s thumb immediately. Otherwise, later tonight when we hear the predictable blame from MLB about how the cancellation of more games and potentially the entire season is the player’s fault, it’s the first time it’ll be absolutely true in my opinion.
Borass has nothing to do with this, MLB keeps trying to implement their little crap that is causing these negotiations to take so long. I’m tired of letting Manfraud get his way, even if it means losing the season I want the union to holdout till Manfraud breaks.
The Boras thing was an MLB leak. His involvement, which should be welcomed by players, is much less than some fans believe.
Bore Ass!
yours, my dear!
It’s not out of touch for a business owner to try to maximize profits and make as much money as possible. It’s literally the goal of every freakin business. Stop hating people for making a crap ton of money while also spending a crap to of money.
And it’s not out of touch for a worker/player to try to maximize earnings and make as much money as possible. It’s literally the goal of every freakin worker.
FSF – I have agreed with some of your posts, but when you say “It’s literally the goal of every freakin worker.” “to maximize earnings and make as much money as possible.”. that sweeping statement is just too much. It’s just not true. Not everyone is greedy or in love with money, my friend. I am not saying you are greedy. I am saying your view of the entire work force everywhere is not accurate as not all are constantly focused on making as much money as possible. Some people love their jobs, are content with the pay they receive, and are not excessively focused on money.
I agree. It’s a play on TT’s words. Just like not EVERY owner is filled with unbridled greed, though that side does tilt more that way. But make no mistake, the working world is filled with workers trying to compete and get ahead but there are plenty of exceptions.
You do realize that its the FANS that are spending a crap ton of money. Its OUR money that the owners are using to pay players. Its OUR money that is building ballparks. Its OUR money. All the owners are doing is acting as a middle man and taking a cut of OUR money.
Lol “excessive spreading tax” the cheap owners are a joke
There is real fear among some owners that Steve Cohen could blow them out of the water spending. In that case, a stiffer penalty on the upper CBT threshold might appease some of them. But it makes for an even harder salary cap.
Draft pick penalties might slow Cohen more than money.
It’s also possible that a contingent of owners are using the Cohen fear factor as a way to get stiffer penalties.
Three of the four owners who voted against increasing the CBT threshold from $214 to $220M, along with Renisdorf, also voted against the Mets’ sale to Cohen. So there’s that.
Let’s see if the Mets can win before worrying what Cohen spends. The low payroll Rays have been a consistent winner over the last 10-12 years, appearing in two WS while the mega payroll Yankees haven’t been able to.
To be fair, the Rays have appeared in 2 WS – in 2008 and recently. But the Yankees won the WS in 2009,. Since hasn’t proven to be the best stretch, but a winning record every year since the mid-90’s and playoffs almost every year as well is nothing to complain about.
I get many fans love to hate on the Yankees. That’s fine. But they are the biggest road draw in baseball and by far the biggest contributor to the Revenue sharing pool because of their success, which also helps every other club. .
The Rays have only been a consistent winner the last 4 seasons. They had a 4 year drought from 2014-2017 and lost more than 90 games a year from 1998 to 2007.
As I noted in a prior thread, the general quietness about tonight’s negotiations should be taken as a positive. MLB last week was leaking like crazy attempting to show there was momentum and to create some pressure on the MLBPA, which obviously didn’t work. I couldn’t help but notice (last week) that it was only MLB saying positive things and the MLBPA kept saying there were issues.
Tonight, both sides are quiet, so I’m sure that’s by agreement. Even MLBN, the mouthpiece for MLB, has decided to keep quiet for the time being.
The $230M in year one for the CBT is probably enough for the start, but I suspect the MLBPA wants to see a bit more growth between years 1 and 5. The additional strings attached are unknown, which are still likely a problem.
Still, this is probably more positive news than even last week. Can they pull it across the finish line sometime tonight?
And then MLB started leaking info like a sieve. But only part of the info.
I guess the union needs to leak their side better.
I think they’re close. $230 million CBT/$50 million bonus pool/14-team playoff is probably the path to resolution – Just need to work out the CBT increments, and I think the rest falls into place.
Question is, does it happen tonight?
If we are heading into a period of major continued inflation then not as good a deal for the players as it appears. Which I think will be the case.
Inflation isn’t really going to effect millionaires and billionaires
People often confuse the effects of inflation.
If you’re take-home pay is $50,000, and you spend all $50,000 on mortgage, food, car, etc., inflation hurts bad.
If you make $1M, and bank $500k, inflation is fine.
I thought this was about paying players what they are worth?
It’s not that easy for owners to increase the price of their product especially whelp consumers have less discretionary income.
I think all this talk of inflation is absurd. These long term deals are not going up in value.
Inflation affects the real value of money. Not talking about it would be absurd, IMO
It does affect the real value of money, but so what? This is about players getting paid what they feel they are worth. It’s not about cost of living raises. It’s about fair value, whatever that value might be. It’s not about inflation.
The owners keep their books close to the vest, so we all can do is guess. The players have no reason to trust the owners. The players don’t want to be exploited. I don’t blame them.
If the owners opened their books and the vast majority showed little or no gain. Do you think the players would be holding out? I don’t.
For the players, I don’t think it’s about money, I think it’s about what they believe is fair.
If you make $1 million and bank $500k, then the value or spending power of the $500k you banked just went down. Every day its in a bank earning less interest than inflation you are losing money. If inflation is high, spend ALL your income you make on things that are inflating in value like real estate. When inflation is low, then save your money. You said you are an accountant and didn’t know that? Something is not right about that.
Time for MLBPA to make a deal, owners have moved well on the CBT, and starting salaries. Don’t get greedy on the bonus pool, it is a new entity!
Having CBT 22 millions bigger that NFL’s salary cap is ridiculous. Baseball has one great chance to fix itself, but it feels like they decided to doom at least 1/3 of their markets. Well, say hello to even lower TV ratings and even more empty seats in your ballparks.
MLB has much more revenue than the NFL and that revenue is growing faster. Why shouldn’t the MLB CBT be higher? Also, the CBT is not designed to be a hard cap like it is in the NFL. There is no issue with competitive balance in MLB today and it will not be an issue with a higher CBT either. In 2019, the last season before the pandemic hit, MLB had more people watch a live game than any year in history. That includes in-person, on TV, and through streaming and subscription services. More games were televised than any year in history, too.
They need to come out feeling that they won and lost at the same time, if we keep focusing on who wins and who loses then this thing will never get resolved.
Seems like MLB is finally attempting to make some moves toward the players. I think we’ll have a deal tonight or by the morning. Didn’t have the belief last week.
Finally? They’ve been the more willing party all along.
Looks like the owners are moving a little bit finally. The players said they wouldn’t expand playoffs if any games were cancelled. Please stick to your guns on this. Owners have to get pinched somehow for the ram job they tried to force on the players.
Sounds like they’re getting close on the numbers. The big question is the issue on penalties for exceeding the CBT threshold. If it’s just money, that’s probably ok, but the draft pick penalties really seem to be the reason why teams make sure they stay under. So I think the players will push hard to minimize or eliminate draft pick penalties.
Ok, I may have to take back what I wrote above about “quietness” being a good sign. The leaks are now coming faster, which could be a sign MLB is getting nervous the players won’t accept. Hope I’m wrong. We’re hearing what MLB is giving; we’re not hearing what MLB is demanding.
Hey RM, I too felt the quietness was a good sign. It seems tweaks are possibly happening between sides…let’s hope. As far as posters blaming Boras? Weren’t Marvin Miller (now in HOF) and Donald Fehr integral in past labor beefs?
The Boras rumor, and who they leaked it through, was a classic PR tactic. Manfred is the face of MLB and disliked by fans. He’s the face of ownership on these negotiations. Tony Clark simply isn’t disliked enough as Miller and Fehr were by fans, so MLB wants to paint Boras as the face of the MLBPA, even though he’s simply an advisor. There’s a reason why Verducci and Sherman and Rosenthal, etc. have all ignored the story about “Boras stopping the deal.” They know it’s not true.
I do hope these increasing leaks as the night goes a long isn’t a bad sign. I’ll know a deal is near if MLBN goes live and they pull Brian Kenny back into the studio! Last week they were live all night. Tonight, repeats. Business as usual.
CBT at $230M with just a flat 10% on the overage and no loss of draft picks and no loss of draft pick or international spending, and no loss of draft pick on signing a free agent?
Along with those min salaries?
That would be a good agreement for players to take.
If owners going to screw it up with all kinds of major penalties for going over the CBT? Then should be a no-go.
The CBT, I mean salary cap should have been a non-starter anyway. But if they can get it to just a tax, as the words describe it? Then it could be acceptable.
No increases in the player pool money over four years should be a no. The MLBPA should learn from its past mistakes with the CBT, and even the league minimum. It should increase yearly. Another penalty threshold for the CBT seems excessive. It’s really hardening the salary cap of a different name.
I don’t, however, feel like they’re that far from an agreement if both sides will move just a little bit more. Giving Manfred unlimited power to change things could be the most scary element!
Look what the NBA does for teams that go over the cap. Back when Golden State won the title with Steph & Durant, they ended up paying over $300M for a team payroll of around $140M due to luxury tax penalties. They are facing a similar luxury tax bill again this year too. This is exactly what the baseball owners want to help curb their own spending. To be honest, I think this is unfair for the Mets as they spent before these rates were set. I hope they give them a one year grace period (pay overages based on last year’s rates) since they didn’t know this would be so punitive. But I can see why they want to add a 4th level of tax rates; they really want to make it hurt if owners decide to go that far over the CBT thresholds. Some of these CBT taxes are given back to the other owners too, so the greedy ones want to make as much as they can off of the owners who blow past the CBT.
The NBA salary cap seems to be softer than the MLB “salary cap.” Don’t they also allow each team to basically toss out the contracts of numerous players for calculation purposes?
This Dueling Banjos schtick has got to stop.
Outside observers will begin to think all baseball people are nuts!
And it doesn’t address the real problem, which is long and boring games. The universal DH will increase the length of the games, and elimination/modification of the shift will lead to more strikeouts.
You are not even a baseball fan.
Why are you here?
Go watch basketball…..
Sign on the line that is dotted fellas. I want to see where all the free agents sign before my next two fantasy drafts.
I’m with you. My fantasy team awaits but it’s AL only so we need to see where the players go.
Why does anyone ever do “AL only” or “NL only” fantasy teams? It sounds like the worst idea ever. Especially now with the universal DH. It sounded bad before that because players can switch leagues. Why pick one league?
@Steve, it’s personal choice. I play single-league fantasy because it rewards competence and knowledge. Building a roster of stars is boring. Figuring out who are secondary players, or the emerging prospects, or thinking two steps ahead of your competition by rostering a closer before he’s the closer is a lot fun to me.
What happens when a player gets traded to another league (starts in the AL but ends up in the NL)? Do you get to keep that player or do you have to give him up once he goes to the NL?
LordD9922 mins ago
@Steve, it’s personal choice. I play single-league fantasy because it rewards competence and knowledge.
===================================
It’s built for BB fanatics. In the old days, I knew just about every lineup, rotation and 2-3 BP guys for every team. Single league requires more than that, especially if it is 12-team.
I do fine with with regular roto, but I salute the guys that play single-league.
It used to be fairly straightforward. You lost the player, but you could claim the players he was traded for. This often could work out well, especially for in-season trades. As MLB trading practices evolved toward trading stars for prospects who may be a year or more away, we now allow league members to either claim the in-coming players from the other league, or they can continue to accumulate their stats in the other league for the remainder of the season, but they lose the player at the end of the season. Some league members were annoyed at this rule change because it changed the “purity” of the league and stats, but most now have grown to like it. Just as NL fans will grow to like the DH. 🙂
The offset to losing players in a trade was trading for NL players in an AL-only format. You sacrifice a roster spot by claiming someone like Schwarber, but you score big if you guess right.
@Joe, it’s not too difficult to play AL- or NL-only if you do it yearly as you’re simply building off your existing knowledge of players. It’s more difficult if you’re dropped into a single-league format after being away from it for a few years. Heck, we took the 2020 season off because it was too short, so I stopped paying attention to a lot of the depth charts. It presented a slight challenge on draft night 2021!
I’m in a league AL/NL through Cbs with keepers. We have a $270 cap prior to the draft. Players go up each year by $5 until hey reach a max – $20 for pitchers, $30 for batters. At that point you have to sign the player if you choose to keep him for however many years you want. Non drafted free agent pickups are $0, and go to $1 the following year to hold their value. During the season you can go over the cap so we usually have a ton of trades between contending teams and rebuilding teams. It’s a 5×5 roto, 13 team league. So if you win the league it’s a true measure of your team surviving the long season. So much fun, feels like youre really a GM.
I never understood AL/NL only. If you don’t want a roster full of stars, make your league deeper. MI, CI, 4 OFs, 2 Util, more pitchers. Choosing AL or NL seems so 1980s anyway. If you really want to reduce your player pool, make an animals only league and fight over Cubs, Marlins, etc
@dorothy
When I played AL only, if traded to the NL, you lost the player and had to call up someone or choose from the available FAs. This led to my favorite rule: Dead players will be treated as if traded to the NL.
You’re humped. You lose him.
The penalties proposed are a joke and hopefully the players reject this.
Think about what owners are really saying.
“Players, we can’t protect ourselves from ourselves, so will you do it for us?”
Imagine demanding a cap on how much you can spend! Mind you, this isn’t the players demanding how much the owners must spend. It’s the owners asking the players to agree to limit themselves on what they can spend. It’s utterly ridiculous!
Imagine playing a fantasy auction league when no team has a cap.
It’s called a Competitive Balance Tax. The goal is to slow down, not stop the three to five teams that are going to approach it.
Since few seem to understand what it suppose to do, no wonder people”s ideas how to resolve the issue are laughable.
If it affects more than five teams it’s too low. If it only affects a couple teams it’s too high And if the penalties stop teams from going too far beyond the threshold the penalties.are too severe. People need to remember what it is suppose to do.
Except there isn’t a competitive balance issue.
In a recent article:
15 of the 30 teams have won the World Series since 2000. That’s better then the other major sports.
26 of the 30 teams have made the playoffs since 2015. 29 of 30 since 2010.
Multiple playoff appearances since 2015 there were 19 of 30 teams, and 26 of 30 since 2010.
So there isn’t a competitive balance issue. The only issue is small markets having no incentive to spend but looking bad in the eyes of their fans despite the increased profitability they receive..
If you can make an enormous amount of money despite having a mediocre product due to lack of payroll spending? That’s the major problem that needs fixing in mlb. And you don’t fix that by limiting the teams who actually want to spend on payroll.
@Lefty2…bingo!
@lefty2 Holy mole!! Someone making sense. Preach it brother!!
No, its the small markets limiting how much more the bigger markets can out spend them. MLB chooses the largest markets to place teams, but there is a vast difference in market size between #1 and #30. Its there to prevent market #1 from out spending market #30 by 3 to 1, as market #30 cannot spend the $250 MM That market #1 can.
Looks like Cohen-ball will be a short-lived strategy.
This truly is as good as it’s going to get for the players. Sign the deal and save the season. I was surprised to hear that each team has to fund the player pool bonus though and this will count equally against the CBT for all teams. So one team is going to pay $1.33M and have no players who qualify for bonus payments, while another team pays the same $1.33M may have 5-6 players who qualify and earn $3M+ in bonuses but the CBT hit will be the same $1.33M for both clubs even if none of their players get paid? I guess that’s the easiest way to do it but it certainly provides a loophole for teams with a lot of young talent. Other teams will be paying for their players’ success and there won’t be any additional charges to their CBT calculation either. This may end up working against the union as some teams may elect to go with youngsters over mid-level veterans, saving significant payroll expense and allow other teams to pay their bonuses for their young players. There is nothing in this CBA to protect the mid-level veterans at all. Their salaries will go down as a result of this deal, so there will be a push 5 years from now on how to protect the 1.0 – 2.0 WAR players who have been in the league for 5+ seasons.
While MLB may have some strings attached to their offer, the players have clearly won this CBA negotiation. They need to quit while they’re ahead and finalize this deal tonight.
I can’t get past the pushback on paying good young players.
Out of all the groups in baseball, these players are the only ones who are almost always underpaid.
Well, you’d have to ask your buddy owners about that since they are the ones adamantly refusing to pay them.
My buddy owners? You have issues.
Don’t we all!
FSF, that was a good answer.
I’m not pro-owner, I’m not pro-player. I think I’ve made that abundantly clear.
I certainly wasn’t trying to be antagonistic. Based on our other back and forth (which is a limited sample admittedly), I did assume that your were on the owners’ side, but more as a quip than anything else.
@halo You have made it abundantly clear that you are pro-owner. At no point have you made any comments that were in favor of a player proposal.
@Halo11 – I hear you but all professional leagues take advantage of young, talented players because they are paid less and you can invest in other areas if you have a strong core of young, inexpensive players. The new year 1-3 salaries being proposed will help these young players a lot. It will never get to the point where all pre-Arb players are paid their true value though.
What surprised me is this pool is coming out of the revenue sharing, so while the players get more, the small markets get less in revenue sharing. As I said earlier, its not like these teams just have this money laying around. They moved it from an existing fund. It will likely have an effect on the payroll levels of the revenue sharing recipients. So its really just a shift in how the players get the same total amount.
2021 Revenue sharing = 2022 Revenue sharing + Bonus Pool. At least it will be equal unless the players reduce the revenue sharing.
So when is today’s “last last last chance for a full season,” and when do we get the “no kidding bestest and most finalest” offer?
The only major hangup that I have would be letting Manfred unilaterally change the rules at the end of each season for the next year. He has proven to be uniquely unqualified to make up his own rules.
I am thankful that owners didn’t bite on the utterly stupid idea of “ghost wins”. That’s almost as dumb as ghost runners.
I’m pretty sure it’s the owners that are changing the rules.
Except for the Covid rules. What rules do you have an issue with?
There are not going to be 7 inning DH. The enforcing the sticky stuff rule was done amazingly well.
And no one likes extra innings.. Not the players, not owners, not the stadium workers, fans, TV, umpires. Literally no one. Hard to pin that on Manfred.
The REAL FANS ABSOLUTELY DO!
Classic pitching duels, clutch hits, amazing comebacks…..
I think the REAL PROBLEM ARE PATHIC FANS WHO DO NOT TRULY LOVE OR RESPECT THE GAME THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE PLAYED.
its a pretty sissy thing to just change the rules to your liking anytime tou dmn well feel like……
162 games the long haul, the stickmtoitiveness , digging.your way back into it, still being relevant force even if you are out of it….. 14 teams playoff is load of carp! Means we really don’t have to give it our all… we’ll just loaf..
Working with specialist who have weaknesses, situational efforts…but you havento work with that weakness…..(DH, 3 batyer min)
The manager, the authority figure had the power to effect a game with many actions and choices…he understands the mechanisms, the weaknesses, the specialist’s strengths….he know how to make it work as a team…
Now its all about self grandizing and individual showboating….and mostly… Displays of arrogance…..sure they point their finger towards the sky, kiss a piece.of.gold…..but it all seams to be about their own glory…..
NEITHER THE PLAYERS,NOR THE OWNERS RESPECT THE GAME.
THE GAME TEACHES, THAT’S WHY IT IS AMERICA’S PAST TIME.
Thanks.to Manfred, baseball isn’t even a steady force.in.out.lives.anymore…it used.to be.dependable….
Has Manfred ever even played baseball? Did he play.little league? Was he ever on the All-star team as a kid? Or did he ride the.bench?
You know, it makes a difference, the amountnof.love.he has for the game itself..or does he hide a secret angst?
So, MLB wants 14 teams and The Players Union will go 14 if there is a ghost win.
More evidence both sides are the problem. A 14 team playoff format is just as absurd as a ghost win.
There’s been enough variety of teams in the playoffs lately that there’s really no need to go to even 12 teams. Ten is fine.
MLB had the highest percentage of different teams in the playoffs since 2001 of any major sport in the US. Expanded playoffs is JUST about lining the owners pockets, not about making the game better for fans.
Can’t believe it took them until last week to actually negotiate
This is the best deal the players will get. If they don’t sign now baseball is done for a while. Maybe for good.
Let’s not get hyperbolic. Baseball will be around for a long while whether 2022 gets played or not.
It may be around, but it will be dying a slow death
Isn’t that what has been going on and is going on? You think coming to an agreement will change that?
Not coming to one sure as hell won’t
Nor will coming to one.
Are you trying to claim that the sport that has seen a meteoric rise in revenue the past 5 years and prior to the pandemic had more people watch a live game in person, on TV, or via streaming or subscription services than ever in its history is dying?
I’ve seen a couple people saying this is the best deal the players will get, and it’s possible you are right. However I’m sure there were people saying the same thing a week ago and now the players have been offered a better deal simply by waiting a week. The players have been waiting years for this negotiation and aren’t going to agree until they’re pretty sure they’ve gotten everything they can possibly get. So even if they risk missing a week or two or salary I think they are waiting at least that amount of time to see if it gets better. I really hope I’m wrong on this, because there is nothing I want more than to wake up to a deal tomorrow morining.
That is hilarious.
Unless there is some unreported ticking time bomb in the proposal, this should be a done deal. The players didn’t get everything, but they got a lot. If this proposal fails, that’s it. Declare an impasse, get the courts involved and we’ll have baseball by 2025.
Some possible hangups for the players from what has been reported:
– The international draft, depending on the terms
– Authorizing Manfred to unilaterally change the rules without players’ consent
– Pre arb bonus pool staying flat for five years
Maybe some extra CBT penalties that the owners threw into the deal that haven’t been reported
MLB is asking for a return to the 50,75,100% penalties plus an undisclosed 4th level of penalties. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th levels would all also include draft pick losses. In other words the owners want a hard cap.
Where did you see that? The last I read was that they agreed to keep the same tax rates, with the exception of the new fourth tier.
When they proposed that scheme previously, there were no added penalties for second and third time violators. They crammed all the penalties into the first time.
MLB Network Radio. Much like trying to tie no draft pick compensation for QO’d free agents, something they had already agreed to do, to the Intl Draft, the owners are also tying draconian penalties to a higher CBT threshold once again.
Wow! That could be a big sticking point. They should at least add an $80-100M floor with escalators if they’re going to pull that BS.
An $80 million floor is to low. Not a single team has under $250 million in revenue and small market teams like the Pirates and Padres are at or over $300 million. As we saw with the Padres, those teams can afford to spend much, much more than $80-100 million. I think if the owners proposed a $120 million floor that the player’s union might be ok with a $230 million CBT threshold, but without these draconian penalties.
I completely agree $80M is too low. But using last year’s payroll that would add like $140M or something like that to payrolls. And I’m trying to work with numbers that the cheap shameless owners might actually buy off on. It’s important to get that stake in the ground IMO. But yes I would definitely pick around $100M to be fair to all parties if I was choosing.
Would an international draft get the Latin kids away from the buscones and other shady characters who take a decent chunk of their money, often for many years?
That’s difficult to answer. My guess, and purely a guess, is the buscones will still get their cut somehow.
I hate the idea of an international draft more than anything being discussed, particularly if it came before 2024. Players have built relationships and worked in specific academies for years. It would be terrible to take those away at the time they are ready to sign with those organizations. I also believe that a draft will hurt opportunity for the young Latin players in the long run.
Hard to see how an international draft would work in Latin America. Unlike the US, there is no high school baseball or travelling squads or even Little League beyond 12 year old level. Most kids there leave school for good at 15. Without the buscones coaching, training and often providing housing and schooling to these young Latin American players, how are they going to get these kids into baseball at all? Today Latin American players make up 27% of MLB. What happens when that pipeline of players dries up? So many questions.
Players need to close the gap on this pre-arb bonus stuff. Fund never even existed til now. Don’t hang up the deal over it.
All I can say is better be a deal when I wake up tomorrow .
Btw very uncool of mlb radio today.
The talking head interrupts and says “ we have breaking news” darn if I didn’t think we had a deal.
Then he tells me Aaron Rodgers signs with Green Bay. Had to make sure I wasn’t on nfl radio
Former Colorado Rockies draft pick, Russell Wilson was traded to the Denver Broncos today.
Maybe they could ask the fans for the 30 million to make up the difference. 1 million per team if fans donate 1 buck per game,. each team draws over 2 million fans., with big markets fans paying more.
So its solved im a genius. just thr0w 1$ on each ticket.
We already pay ALL the expenses.
“Just get it done” -baseball fans
I still don’t even know how the luxury tax works…and have no idea what the bonus pool is, or what difference an international draft makes
Then you can consider yourself lucky and count your blessings. You can just sit back and enjoy the games…you know…if they ever start playing them.
Not sure if this is included above, so I’ll include here for informational purposes. These are the most recent rumored CBT levels:
Base: $230
First: $250
Second: $270
Cohen level: $290
Those include penalties that start at 50% and go up and include draft pick losses for 1st, 2nd, and Cohen levels. Complete non-starter for the union.
You need a degree in advanced math or something to figure this stuff out
Quantum physics was easier than this
I’ve always said just put every team in one division, same schedule, and whoever wins the division is the champion
Let’s get it done!! I want the free agent frenzy to start for crying out loud!!!!
That would probably be the most interesting thing to this season. It will be a complete circus show and undoubtedly very entertaining.
@FSF
Agreed. I will have my hot wings and nachos ready.
It’s the players who are going to be hurt the most by this greed. The owners can own the teams indefinitely, but the players primes are being cut short and they will never get those games back. Settle now before there is regret.
You ever heard of bankruptcy? The owners cannot endure a full season lost.
MLB pushing the self-imposed deadline to Wed afternoon might be a good sign that this will get done tomorrow
Or they might be going for the Guiness world record of most deadlines set and then retracted.
It could be another pressure ploy sure, but given that it’s only an overnight (ie just a few hours) suggests they’re close this time. I’m not holding my breath though, already cancelled my season tickets.
Hurry up, Bryce Harper is going to need those 3 extra hits to get into the Hall of Fame
I’m not really happy the union is still trying to get the large annual increases in the pre arb pool. The owners know that whatever the number ends at in this CBA in a few years the new starting demand from the union will be way more than $5M more. If it ends at say $95 in this CBA the union will want it at $150M to start of the next CBA. This is all new money as well and should be considered as part of increases min salaries since it basically is a bonus for those players who play well. The union is getting a good size increase in min salary already, plus another 1.3M+ in spending from each team on those same players via the pre arb pool. So the union is already getting a huge increase on the min salary issue.
International draft has been a non-starter for the union from day one which is why MLB stopped asking for it in November. MLB had already agreed to no draft pick compensation for QO free agents. So why at the 11th hour are they trying t tie something they already agreed to do to something that is a complete non-starter for the union. Typical Manfred. Pathetic.
The climate has changed on the topic especially among Latin players who came up through that system, being cornered at age 14 and whisked away to baseball camps, already committed to one team.
The clincher could be that teams have to guarantee that they will pay the slot bonus for the players that they draft, so the kids aren’t left at the mercy of one team that says “here, take it or leave it” and they get a fraction of their slot value.
The players won’t agree to it unless their large contingent of latin players is on board.
They shouldn’t agree to it.
Increasing the minimum salary from $570,500 to $700,000
and adding a $40 million pre arbitration bonus pool
will cost each team an average of just under $3 million
Both players and owners get the satisfaction of making a large majority of the MLBPA membership happy with the immediate impact of the new agreement on their lives.
Other concessions to players are vastly overrated, IMO
– draft lottery
– no compensation for QO free agents (about 7 per year)
– two players per year get an extra year of service time
– slight bump in the CBT thresholds
– universal DH
It will be a crying shame if this whole CBA is held up over this international draft.
Yes. It’s unfortunate MLB reintroduced it as a “must have” yesterday and tied it to eliminating free agent compensation, which they had agreed to eliminate previously.
The MLBPA should reject.
Agree. They should’ve spent more time addressing the injustices of our own domestic draft (7 year minor league contracts, $20K cap for free agent amateurs for starters). That stunt MLB pulled in 2020 wherein they limited the draft to 5 rounds, then capped FA amateur signings at $20K was complete horse-crap. The union should’ve stepped in to do something to protect those players, but they rolled over. Their excuse? It’s not really related to MLB players (i.e., 40-man only), yet here they are fighting for the absence of an international draft that may, in fact, torpedo the entire CBA, if not cost us games. Head-scratching stuff.
You do the math:
Minimum salary increase to $700K = $129,500 per player x 13 players per team = 1,683,500 per team
$40 M bonus pool = $1.33M per team
Total $3.01M per team, $90 M total
MLB deal with ESPN +$85M 12 team playoff
Apple TV + 85M
NBC Peacock + 30M
Total $200M
MLB’s revenue from national TV deals now up to $1,96 billion per year, which is split between 30 teams equally. $65.3 million per team.
That’s more than the full 26 man payroll of four MLB teams just from national TV.
That doesn’t include MLB.tv, local TV, revenue sharing, gate receipts, licensing, merchandising, parking, or advertising