Since the end of the lockout, the Guardians have had “on and off” discussions with the representatives for star third baseman José Ramírez, reports Paul Hoynes of Cleveland.com. Hoynes characterizes the talks as exchanging ideas about players who could be considered comparable to Ramírez as opposed to floating actual frameworks for a deal.
It’s not surprising to hear the Cleveland front office has gotten in touch with Ramírez’s reps. The three-time All-Star is controllable for two more seasons, but it stands to reason the Guardians would want some idea about the kind of money it’d take to keep him around for the long haul. Ramírez is, after all, one of the game’s best players. The switch-hitting third baseman broke out as a superstar in 2017, and he’s been among the most valuable players in the sport over the past half-decade.
Going back to the beginning of the 2017 campaign, only Mike Trout and Mookie Betts edge out Ramírez among position players by FanGraphs’ measure of Wins Above Replacement. Ramírez owns a .280/.365/.547 line in that time, offensive production that checks in checks in 39 percentage points above average by measure of wRC+. That’s the 15th-highest mark among qualifiers, and Ramírez pairs that offensive damage with excellent marks for both his baserunning and defense at the hot corner.
Cleveland signed Ramírez to an incredibly team-friendly deal just before he took his game to new heights. In March 2017, they inked him to a $26MM guarantee that extended their window of team control by three seasons. He’ll play this season on an $11MM salary and is controllable in 2023 via a $13MM club option that’s a lock to be exercised barring catastrophic injury.
That extension delayed Ramírez’s path to the open market, and he’s not slated to hit free agency (assuming next year’s option is picked up) until the advance of his age-31 campaign. Accordingly, he won’t command a decade-long commitment in the Corey Seager mold, but teams have still paid a fair amount for slightly older star position players in recent offseasons. George Springer landed a six-year, $150MM deal from the Blue Jays heading into his age-31 season last winter; Marcus Semien picked up $175MM over seven years from the Rangers this offseason at the same age.
If he keeps playing at his current form over the next couple years, Ramírez would quite likely beat those deals in free agency. His camp could justifiably argue he’s a better player than either Springer or Semien, and the overall market could be more robust as teams move further away from the lost revenues in 2020. Draft pick compensation for free agents, which applied to both Springer and Semien, could also be pulled from the collective bargaining agreement depending on the status of an international draft.
The Guardians wouldn’t pay an open market price for Ramírez two years in advance, but it’d still register as a surprise if they went to the level it’d take to keep him in Cleveland long-term. The franchise has never gone above $60MM in guarantees on any individual player. A Ramírez extension would probably cost more than double that amount. Cleveland has had a bottom five player payroll in each of the past two years, and they’re currently slated to head into 2022 with around a $56MM mark, in the calculation of Jason Martinez of Roster Resource.
Owner Paul Dolan would probably have to greenlight more spending in the future to keep Ramírez around. The post-2023 payroll slate is wide open, but it’s tough to imagine the Guardians allocating 40-50% of their annual payroll to a single player. Hoynes writes that the front office is conferring with Dolan about the long-term spending plans and that no further negotiations with Ramírez have presently been scheduled. It stands to reason the front office will reengage with their star player once they have a better understanding about the kind of resources that’ll be at their disposal.
With their two years of club control, the Guardians don’t have to hammer out a deal with Ramírez in the coming weeks or months. So long as no extension is in place, however, chatter figures to mount about his future. That’s particularly true if the Guardians struggle early in the season.
Ramírez’s name was floated briefly in trade rumors this winter, with the Blue Jays among the teams to inquire about his availability, but it never seemed likely Cleveland would ship him out over the offseason. A rough first half for the team would probably result in increased speculation about a Ramírez trade as the deadline gets closer. Cleveland would surely prefer to avoid that situation — either by keeping him for the long haul or playing well enough in the season’s first couple months there’s no question about their direction come July.
It doesn’t look like they’re gonna trade him. Cleveland is looking for the right year to really build a super team considering their depth. Not a fan, but I respect that
Super team? Cleveland?
All being paid under 5M and then JRam
He means super bad. Ahahahaha!
So LeBron, Kyrie Irving, and Kevin Love will be joining JRam on the Guardians?
Guardians really need to do something to start branding their new name. Hell. I’d take Puig at this point.
The Cleveland puigs
I’ll take it over Guardians!
sell the team
Avery was on here a few days ago explaining the situation with the past minority owner. It’s to the point where the Dolan’s will have to sell the franchise as they’ve been underfinanced since the day they bought the franchise.
Once Terry Francona retires that entire organization is going to have problems. Not a knock on anyone there, but he’s been more than just he best manager in MLB, he’s had a great influence in all of Baseball Ops.
As for Rameriz, he seems to love the team and the area. But he can get so much more elsewhere that I can’t see how he stays if he’s still playing at the level he is today.
P.S. Their new name fits Arena Football. he new owner needs to get a major league nickname.
I wonder how many former Tribe players are advising him to leave for “green”er pastures?
Wonder how many on the starting rotation are thinking the same thing. Why waste your most productive years for a team that clearly does not have postseason as a goal for the foreseeable future? I bash this organization all the time, and rightfully so, but I feel awful for these players who might as well playing for the early 80’s Expos teams.
Clearly doesn’t have postseason as a goal? Have you not paid any attention to the success they’ve had the past few years?
70 and 92 this year. Book it.
@WoOBle
Well, you’ve certainly outed yourself with that sorry prediction.
Anybody who paid the least bit of attention to the play of the youngest team in the majors last year would know know that, despite the complete decimation of its rotation, numerous injuries/issues affecting key members of the pen, the loss of the starting catcher, clean-up hitter, right fielder (to a gruesome injury), their best platoon bat, and their hall of fame manager all lost for extensive portions of the season (and did I mention the youngest team in the game?) this team still battled within one game of .500. A prognostication that doesn’t take all that into account, discounts ANY growth in the young talent, and the likelihood of better luck on the injury front, then declares this team is going to lose ten more games than last year based on nothing other than “dislike” is worthless indeed.
Completely agree about the Francona thing. We all know that when he retires the FO will cycle through 4 or 5 managers over the next decade who are either first time managers or failed managers willing to work for a pittance. We’ve seen it before. Odds of extending Ramirez are maybe 10%. They don’t extend their stars at anywhere near market value. He’ll be traded within the next year.
Go back to Cleveland spiders!
I picture them all wearing Hawaiian shirts
I knew the Cleveland baseball team always kept a close eye on the margins, but had no idea they were only spending 56 million.
That’s a complete disgrace. A 40 man roster comprised entirely of players on the major league minimum would be exactly half that number.
The team is valued by Forbes at 1.3 billion, and it’s a great baseball town. I visited a few years ago (admittedly, pre-pandemic) and the place was packed, with everyone having a great time, despite the team being thumped that night. Even the surrounding area was full of fans, asking if we’d been to the game that day, eating/drinking, being friendly, and just having a great time overall.
I wish there was some mechanism in place to dispose of these revenue sharing collecting owners who just hoard the checks and hang their teams and fans out to dry. But I guess once you’re in the club, you’re in it for life.
@ ccsilvia;
They’re not “hoarding the checks”. You have no idea of how much it costs today to run a MLB franchise each year.
They need a new minority owner and haven’t found one in over 2 years. If they were hoarding so much money that’d have had a buyer by now.
That’s ludicrous.
I may not know how much it costs to run an MLB franchise each year (not sure how you do, but congrats on the CPA license/amazing job you landed!)
I do know that when you own a property worth 1.3 billion, it’s not all that hard to drum up interest. Or to sell, which is what they probably should do, if they’re not interested in spending more than roughly 4% of their team’s net worth on, you know, the product that they have to present and sell to the public.
It’s not ludicrous. What is ludicrous is mixing up operating expenses with asset values.
Not a CPA, but I was an accountant before going into computer work.
You seem not to grasp what I wrote. The owner of the Royals was a minority owner in the Cleveland franchise. His shares – which have gone up substantially in value – have been in escrow for 2 years. He wants his money. He’s obviously been pressuring both the Dolan’s and the Commissioners office to get it. They can’t find a buyer. A few months ago they thought they had a guy. The told him he could take control of the entire franchise in 4-5 years. He must have looked at the financials because he hasn’t been heard from since.
Anyone can put a value on a property. But if no one want so buy it for that amount…….
But since you think the public wants to buy it – take the ball and run with it!
Well, that’s not at all what you wrote in your initial post, so you might see how I was not able to “grasp it” lol
If that really is the situation (which I have no reason to doubt, as I do not follow the team nor it’s financials) I can’t believe that MLB allowed that sort of interest conflict, within the same division no less! But that’s very interesting, I’ll have to look into it further.
My point remains, if they’re going to continue owning a 1.3 billion property, and they’re only willing to invest 4% of that value into their product, they should get out of the business (perhaps by diluting and taking on further minority stakeholders) or their product isn’t going to be worth 1.3 billion for much longer.
@Samuel
Excellent synopsis, guy. Thanks for stepping in and setting this guy straight. The funny thing to me is there has never been a whisper of a complaint from any player, coach, or member of the front office staff present or past that the organization was “cheap,” “not trying to win,” or “pocketing money” at the expense of the fortunes of the team. Why? Because it’s not happening! Under-capitalized as it is, ownership has NEVER cut corners in areas that are fundamental to an excellent operation. And yet, that’s exactly where–if the owners were charlatans–it would cut corners and “pocket money.” Now I ask you, if the owners don’t short shrift the part of the organization we DON’T see, the easiest place to pull money from if they were so inclined, why would anyone conclude they are cheapskates in the area everyone DOES see? But that’s exactly what fans claim. The ONLY truly discretionary part of a team budget is any addition to team payroll beyond what is already contracted. And to be frank, after everything else required in any quality organization, in Cleveland, there just isn’t that much revenue left over.. You don’t want to accept that, fine, but beware of any new owner who takes over. He may not have local ties and may conclude that another locale will provide the revenue that allows him to be a big player in major league baseball. Maybe then you’ll remember your “cheapskate” owner more fondly instead of saying–as some outrageously have–that the Dolans are worse than Art Modell. Yes, that gives you an idea of the quality of many of our so-called “fans.”
Me, I enjoy the David vs. Goliath quality of being a CLE fan and knowing that when we beat the big boys, it embarrasses them tremendously, because they know they have no business losing with all the advantages they have. Don’t think for a moment that those big markets don’t “pocket money” far in excess of whatever cut the Dolans take. Don’t listen for a moment to the Yankees and Red Sox, for instance, when they self-righteously complain about Tampa.’s payroll…the only reason they do is because they’re ashamed of their own performance and need to deflect from their own incompetence and sloppy spending.
@ccsilvia
Your “point” remains immaterial. Franchise values have zero affect on team operations anywhere in baseball because the wealthy fellows who run sports teams run them like any other business: they project next year’s revenues, calculate recurring costs, and set a budget for the year. They don’t say, hey, I’m going to borrow on my equity to sign Carlos Correa. If you believe that, you need to go back to school, because your analytical abilities are in need of remediation. You don’t borrow on the value of your house to pay for groceries, do you? Well, rich people don’t borrow on the value of their team to pay for ballplayers, I assure you. If revenues can’t support the expenditures, it doesn’t happen. If you honestly think owners reach in their pockets to fund their playtoys, you don’t understand wealthy people at all. Because that’s not how most of them got wealthy in the first place, spending big bucks with the possibility of no return of investment. Spending on free agent ballplayers does NOTHING to add to a team’s value; it anything, such obligations reduce the value of a team. Any financial analyst will tell you, if you’re planning to sell, get rid of long term obligations, don’t add to them. Which is exactly what Cleveland is doing in an effort to attract interest in a minority buyer, and I don’t blame them one bit. Long-term contracts on ballplayers have proven to be one of the worst investments you can make.
Whoa, bud. I’m not here to “set you straight” about anything. You’re a Cleveland fan, and I support that, fully. It was kind of the entire genesis for my initial post.
I just objectively loathe, as a baseball fan, that the Dolans are worth 4.6 billion (more than the Steinbrenners, the Ricketts, and my own John Henry – who I have plenty so say about) but they don’t seem willing to invest, whatsoever, into their little baseball hobby, which is obviously a tiny percentage point of their vast empire. You don’t seem to mind that. But bully for you, I guess? You’re a better fan/person than I would be, given like circumstances.
@ccsilvia
They’re NOT worth $4.6 billion! NOT EVEN CLOSE.
They are relatively “poor” compared to most owners. They are NOT the Dolans of New York, the Cablevision moguls who run the Knicks. The Dolans of Cleveland are locals who love the Cleveland baseball team, borrowed from a trust to purchase it (have to pay it back) and made what money they have from running a local law firm. They have zero access to operating capital outside of whatever wealth they have, and trust me, it’s meager compared to most in MLB. They certainly don’t have access to money that enables them to obligate millions to ballplayers. They operate within the revenues the team generates and that’s it. Sorry to burst your bubble, but these are just “run of the mill” rich people who are only guilty of being undercapitalized. Oh, and they are really, really lousy at talking to the average joe fan. But then, what rich person isn’t?
If your owner can’t afford it, time to play in a different hobby.
Run a local baseball league or buy a minor league team. Stop holding up major league teams and expecting everyone else to play down to your team’s level…. Can’t afford it, sell the team.
calltothepen.com/2022/01/02/the-cleveland-guardian…
Only takes a couple of quick searches regarding Lawrence Dolan to ascertain his personal net worth. Also, not like anyone in that family is hurting for money. Maybe he should ask for a loan from one? I don’t think he’s going to need to hold a bake sale or car wash any time soon.
No one is “obliged” or “obligated” to spend money on a ballplayer or any employee, for that matter. But what you are, as an owner of a franchise, is a steward. The team will be sold eventually, as almost all are eventually. But you owe it to the city you operate in (and take millions of dollars from) to put the best product on the field that you can.
I don’t believe that the Cleveland organization does that every year, and I don’t think that it’s because their ownership can’t afford to. I believe it’s a deliberate, fiscal choice. And the wrong one.
Well, that’s hilarious, since they beat the Yankees rather regularly, including embarrassing them again in the Bronx this past September.. Seems to me, we play UP to you rather well…and how exactly are we “holding you up” again? Man, what an arrogant post. Cleveland’s no different than Tampa or Oakland, or many other teams you evidently :”allow” to be in your league….you guys play within your revenues and we play within ours. The truly embarrassing thing is you can’t even take out the Rays….tsk, tsk.
@ccsilvia
You know, that’s the problem with the “few clicks” syndrome of research. You land on an Fansided piece (and a self-serving Yankee portion of Fansided to boot, hardly a reputable place to begin with) and think you’ve found the answers. Well, of course you haven’t, but hey, you throw a couple of spades of dirt, and think you just dug a grave. Pretty pathetic, really. Did you ever think that maybe, just maybe, they have an agenda? And that agenda is continuing to disparage small markets because of how often they embarrass Yankee fan.
You might want to dig a little deeper next time, and come up with a real writer at an authoritative site. Then you’d come up with the real story, not something made up by kids playing reporter on the internet.
“Team president Chris Antonetti and general manager Mike Chernoff have been transparent about the catastrophic losses facing the Indians and all of baseball in this pandemic. Now the bill is coming due, and the Dolans don’t have enough cash to cover the check.
Don’t conflate Cleveland’s Larry and Paul Dolan with New York’s father-son duo of Charles and James. Charles is Larry’s billionaire brother and the founder of Cablevision. Larry is a retired Cleveland attorney. The blood might be the same, but the money sure ain’t.
The Cleveland Indians are these Dolans’ primary source of income. This isn’t a family that made billions in tech or real estate. They aren’t business moguls. There is no empire of wealth. They’re Clevelanders and huge sports fans who did well as attorneys and bought a team 20 years ago when there was a little more room for mom and pop stands in professional sports. But in that time, the game has changed for ownership groups, and now baseball is pricing them out of their own neighborhood.”
theathletic.com/2309730/2021/01/08/dolans-clevelan…
This was fun reading this pissing contest. Guardians roster is pathetic, and their fans are some of the biggest crybabies around. See you out there!
Are you not reading? There are currently shares of the team from the KC owner that they are actively trying to sell. No takers to this point. Why do you feel the Dolans shares would sell any faster?
Avory, you cant argue with ignorance. My favorite are yankee fans and red sox fans who know how to operate and spend small budgets. Completely clueless. They live in their little center of the universe world and feel entitled.
They have little to no understanding of how merchandising sales are shared, % of tickets sales to total revenue, disparity in tv contracts and more importantly, what drives tv contract disparity, and how revenue sharing really works, let alone if there is any parking or other local revenues.
I think my favorite are emboldened Angel fans. A large market franchise who is completely mismanaged. A relatively barren farm system, underperforming MLB roster, and when you get down to cost to get a win, all the small market teams, or the “cheap” owners are somehow getting their wins at a much lower cost than the Angels.
@Yankee Clipper
Cleveland’s 2017 payroll-$144MM
Cleveland’s 2018 payroll-$157MM
Cleveland’s 2019 payroll-$136MM
This team will spend again on their own time, like they have in the recent seasons above, but their re-tooling on the fly and unlike your team isn’t wasting their resources and eliminating their financial flexibility. Oh, and will contend on a payroll less than a fourth of your teams.
Forbes in 2020 confirmed the are among the richest MLB ownera at 4.6 Billion. You are kind of painting the Dolans as do-gooders, and they may have been, after all they vastly overpaid for the team at the time of purchase at over 300 million. They had a run, didn’t win, so be it. However, nowadays, real fans don’t accept the poverty gimmick from people who have billions. They will draw this year, hell even Baltimore draws, and some of that will be post pandemic excitement. Eventually, people will stop buying because they will realize the profit taking going on here. That’s all it is. Not even 1 mid-level talent signing this off-season. Minor leaguers at best and this team will lose in the high 90’s this year because they have a bottom third offense in all of baseball.
WoOB, net value of owners is not same as net value of the team. They do have other assets and businesses.
And your guess on profit taking is just that, your guess. And it us supported by zero hard evidence.
Why’s avory so angry at a normal conversation…
@ WoOBle;
Again…..
Forbes lumped the Dolans of Cleveland in with the Dolans of NYC to get to that figure.
The Dolan’s of NYC have almost all of that net worth, and they’re not in any way associated with the Cleveland baseball team.
When you go to Divorce Court, think the Judge will grant your alimony payments based on the net worth of a brother, Uncle, and/or cousins that live elsewhere in America?
LOL
There is a major critical thinking problem in America. Ready…..
THE MEDIA LIES……all the time.
@ SpendNuttinWinNuttin;
Why are you so concerned with Avory?
Is this another “I can’t argue facts so I’ll accuse the person of something”?
LOL
@ THE downvoter;
Arguing with Yankee fans about spending money?
LOL
Of course they’re resentful.
They last appeared in a WS 12 years ago.
Since that time AL small market teams in KC, Cleveland and Tampa have all been to the WS – KC twice, and winning one.
They want to go back to bullying their way with unequal revenues to win. because they don’t understand the sport. When the field is level NYC baseball teams are as successful as their NFL and NBA teams.
ccsilvia
I just objectively loathe, as a baseball fan, that the Dolans are worth 4.6 billion but they don’t seem willing to invest,
=====================================
Virtually anyone that runs a business will only invest based on an expected return. Just locally, I’m guessing Stew Leonard, Frank Pepe, and Rory Dolan are all millionaires many times over. But none of them are giving me anything for free. Their personal wealth is their personal wealth.
Two clicks directed me to this site, where the net worth of the owners of the Guardians was stated to be $4.6 billion:
mlbtraderumors.com/2021/12/mlb-owners-net-worth.ht…
That article linked to this in the LA Times:
Cleveland Guardians
Principal owner: Lawrence J. Dolan
Controlling owner: Paul J. Dolan
Net worth: $4.6 billion (2020)
Purchase price: $323 million (2000)
Current franchise valuation: $1.16 billion
Value appreciation: 258%
Annualized appreciation: 6.0%
“How they made their billions: Family patriarch Charles Dolan, the brother of Larry Dolan and the uncle of Paul Dolan, was a cable television pioneer who launched Cablevision on Long Island in 1973 and sold the company to Altice for $17.7 billion in 2016.
“Fast fact: The Guardians (formerly Indians) have been a picture of stability under the Dolans, with four primary managers (Charlie Manuel, Eric Wedge, Manny Acta and Terry Francona) and three general managers (Mark Shapiro, Chris Antonetti and Mike Chernoff) in 20 years.”
How much does it cost then to run an MLB Franchise? Like actual dollar amount…
I’ve heard a minimum of $50m a year.
@SpendNuttinWinNuttin
Because it’s not “normal” when the basic facts are wrong and there is constant criticism where it isn’t warranted. There are always plenty of things to question in an organization without making things up just because one has a personal animus.
An excellent, but more over, truthful, response.
Did the Blitzer deal never get finalized?
I think that the Blitzer minority ownership is currently going through channels. I would expect an announcement some time during this season.
Many people don’t realize that there was no revenue sharing in 2020 due to the pandemic and there. was only partial revenue sharing in 2021.. Cleveland has never been one of the small market teams pocketing the money. Look back at their salaries in the late 2010′.
Samuel and Avory have been very correct with their comment here.
Yeah that’s a really low payroll. I think the Orioles are in the same boat. I heard one announcer say that the total Orioles team payroll is less than what Max Scherzer will make. I didn’t investigate it on my own so I don’t know how true it is, it’s just what I heard during the Phillies-Orioles game today.
Cleveland has lead the AL in attendance 4 times since 1901. That’s 120 seasons, many of those in the stadium with the largest seating capacity. Support has be spotty at best.
Don’t do it Jose. Get paid what you’re worth.
…and informal they’ll remain.
They saw the Marte deal and think, “There’s a chance!”
Could be the first step to trading him if his asking price is too high
In fact they could have a tentative deal in hand and now want to compare that to his price
Baloney. CLE has never dealt a player like Ramirez unless one of these things applies 1) the team wasn’t expected to be competitive; 2) the player isn’t worth what he’s being paid or 3) he’s viewed as an imminent injury risk.
NONE of those things apply to Ramirez. If you paid less attention to uniformed national writers and more attention to the actual behavior of the astute CLE organization, you’d know not to pay attention to idiotic speculation (or contribute to it).
#1 seems very suspect.
From your view in the bleachers, sure, but maybe you might want to review the Tribe’s sojourn to the Bronx last September. The team is, like it was then, better than you think.
@Avory “Cleveland has never dealt a player like Ramirez unless they weren’t going to be competitive” —- Forgetting they did it with the OTHER Ramirez. And then won 91 games and went to the ALDS… Just false
Lots of us still fondly remember “Manny being Manny” when after signing with the Red Sox, reportedly told his agent that he changed his mind & wanted to stay in Cleveland. Agent rolled his eyes & said you can’t do that, you already signed all the papers! Team never traded him & Ramirez regretted it for a moment. Expecting Jose to be more careful in thinking it thru
Which of those things applied to Lindor?
Is Lindor worth his contract in New York. Lindor also did not want to stay. Ramirez reportedly does. Huge points to consider.
Unfortunately, Cookie wanted to stay too and took a team friendly contract and yet eventually was dealt anyway. So for as much as I defend their tactics I’d also be gone if I was JRam.
Cookie, unfortunately, was a victim of the pandemic losses. That one bothered me.
Lol. Shots fired for someone just offering some discussion points. Why so personal? Just had to lay out your thoughts without accusing me. I’d respect that. So you know, I have watched the Indians play as far back as the 80s when on channel 43.
They should trade him to the Jays..they could get back Kirk, Biggio, Gurriel, Pearson and a top draft pick..if they wait until next year their leverage will drop as he will only have one year of control left and if they wait until FA they could end up with nothing
A DH, a reliever, another infielder that Cleveland does not need, and Gurriel. Cleveland would easily say no to that.
Kirk is a hitter first catcher. Yes plays DH so his bat is in the lineup when other catchers play. Pearson is an interesting one. Reminds me when Montreal traded Randy Johnson to Seattle because he could not control his fastball. Not saying Pearson is Johnson, but it reminds me of it.
@sffblddt;
Since you’ve been watching since the 80’s, have you noticed that under Antonetti / Francona the team has been built around pitching? Have you noticed that they’re not interested in offensive Catcher’s? They want Catchers that can call a game, handle a pitching staff and block balls in the dirt. They aren’t undermining their pitching staff for a guy that bats 3-5 times a game
Can’t see it getting done. Dolan has never paid anyone the kind of money Ramirez is worth.
I believe Francona leaves after this season. They will be lucky to hold off KC to finish fourth in the division. Detroit much improved and Twins have reloaded. White Sox will repeat as division winner.
Twins are a mess. White Sox are not that good. I believe that Cleveland has a very good chance to win the ALC in 2022. They obviously are holding some cash in reserve to buy a player or two at the trade deadline if they’re in contention. They’ve done that numerous times before. They did play in the WS in 2016.
Yet another uninformed individual spouting off about Cleveland’s future without any clue whatsoever about them. Every year people read headlines and get all excited about what other teams are doing, and every year CLE confounds expectations. This year is no different. Be prepared to be wrong for about them for the tenth year in a row.
Hi Paul. How are things in Dolan land today?
Francona is only part of the Cleveland front office. The team will survive fine when Francona decides to retire.
I am not a Cleveland fan but I feel bad for those folks. Just when it’s getting good they cut your legs out from underneath.
Fortunately for them, spiders have a lot more legs than humans have.
48, nice historic reference!
@tigerg
You feel bad for a team that has averaged 90 wins over the last 9 years? My word, what are your feelings about the the 26 teams who haven’t done that?
*SPIDERS
*Tribe
*Not Cleveland fans
Lofton, Baerga, Belle , et al that era , the whole crew , always stacked lineups …was so much fun.
It was very fun shutting them down in the 1995 World Series.
Who would’ve thought we would have a celebrity player responding? Welcome aboard Tom Glavine, and congrats on shutting them down.
Third-lowest 2022 payroll in MLB, above only the Pirates and Orioles. Maybe ownership should have focused more on opening their wallets than a name change.
Says a Marlins fan, a team running a AAAA operation that scammed the baseball world by opening up the checkbook to win and then blow up the roster. Also scammed the local fans to pay for a stadium and again blew up the roster.
Congrats, Marlins. You win “Stupidest Comment of the Day”. High points were awarded in the categories in hypocrisy, spouting out without the facts, and lack of originality.
Congratulations – You earned it! Your “L” will be sent in the mail to the address of record. Thank you for living the “type first, read zero, research never!” lifestyle.
What people forget is that Cleveland is in the middle of their rebuild. So, like the Pirates and Orioles, they have a low payroll.. but Cleveland is still managing to put an exciting team on the field and being relevant in the playoff discussion. They aren’t simply tanking, like so many other clubs do.
Cleveland has one player on their roster that is not on a pre-arbitration or arbitration contract. A young roster will always cost less than a veteran team. Simple logic.
Ramirez and Bieber need to be locked down as soon as possible. This team is not far off from becoming the horrible dysfunctional joke that was parodied in the movie “Major League”. As someone mentioned above when Francona retires this team is going to have problems
HIlarious. Another ridiculous comment. If “horrible and dysfunctional” is an average of 90 wins over the past 9 years, please, MORE dysfunction, stat!
Excluding the 2020 season, the Guardians have averaged 86.6 wins in their 10 previous seasons. That’s a marked difference from 90 wins per season you’ve noted. Why are you so triggered when someone disagrees with you?
@YankeesBleacherCreature
No, it’s not, because I said quite clearly the last NINE seasons, not ten, and used the winning percentage of the incomplete 2020 season to adjust the calculation properly. I think you can take it from there, guy, now, please, I’d appreciate it if you would perform your audit correctly.
@Avory
Are you old enough to remember Indians Baseball before 1994?
@ Rsox;
LOL
I am…….
Forget winning a division. That was a franchise that wasn’t even in a pennant race come August between 1959 and 1993.
All the national medias crocodile tears for the Res Sox and Cubs because they didn’t win a pennant – at least at times they competed and sometimes got to the playoffs. Cleveland was like the Washington Senators before they moved to Minnesota……but they did it for decades – i.e. generations.
@Rsox
Yes, that’s why I have a proper perspective on things. No one could have been a fan during the dark ages (circa 1963-1993) as bleak a 30 year period as any fan could possibly experience and not be appreciative for the last 30 years. It’s why I have little patience for those who think these are bleak days in the history of franchise…they act like not making the playoffs is a crime and losing the World Series is a capital offense. Try going 30 years and not contending one single year! NOT ONE TIME!
@Avory Lol. It’s not that serious. You need a hug.
Mad max makes 40 mill which is only 16 mill less than the guardians whole payroll ! How is this possible ????
Rameriez is awesome to watch, someone that size taking these pitchers deep like they’re still in high school
so, the small market, small payroll guardians are asking JRam what he feels he’s worth, right before the start of the season, when he still has two years of control left which would further buoy his trade value?
hmm…
I’ll never understand this “extend or trade” mentality, especially with a great (and I mean great; he’s still under-rated) player like Ramirez. Why not just appreciate what he can do for you the next couple of years, and then make the HARD choice of keeping him or letting him go. Mid-market teams face this all the time; it’s a balancing act that they all have to navigate.
I believe what they are really asking is will you take another discount contract and if so how much of a discount. No doubt they want him here, he wants to play here…just can he leave enough on the table that they can’t not sign him. No ill will if he doesn’t, he deserves every penny he gets and more. He has been amazing on the field, in the clubhouse and in the community. And already given the the team millions in value.
No, I think they will try to find a fair contract that meets both Cleveland’s budget and Jose’s needs. Small market teams have to be careful with long term contracts. They don’t have the big market resources to overcome a huge mistake. The Yankees can spend past an Ellsbury contract, small markets can’t.
True, one bad contract can bury a team like Cleveland, look at what Hafner did to them years ago. The rich teams can get out of bad contracts much easier.
For all the people complaining they aren’t spending, they should take that fight up with the MLBPA. Those clowns had a chance to put a true salary cap in with a ceiling and floor but they failed.
he’s worth more now to the future of the team if he’s traded. the earlier they move him the more he’s worth as his years of control are a factor.
if they let him run out his existing deal, and let him walk they get basically nothing. where does that leave them in 2 years?
for small market / small cap teams it’s abt evolution and planning the best course for the future. that’s the only way they can remain competitive.
this spawns another conversation altogether but in this current environment of have and have nots it’s a simple fact.
Cleveland just added 11 prospects from their strong farm system to their 40 man roster and face another roster crunch this December. Trading Ramirez for more prospects would likely cause Cleveland to lose more value than just Ramirez.
There are times when trading for more prospects just doesn’t make sense for an organization.
It almost never does; while your tanking/rebuilding, the other teams in your division aren’t just sitting there. Enjoy the player’s ability while you’ve got him; move on.
Speaking of the Guardians. interesting that they apparently weren’t “in on” Haseley. I’m sure they could have come up with something better than the 27th ranked prospect in a system that’s almost historically awful (No knock on the ChiSox; when the window opens, you try to plow right through it).
Bob – but why would they want a guy like Haseley? He has never really hit since being drafted. Former first-rounder with a good glove but a bat that has been below average.. that pretty much describes Bradley Zimmer, without the speed.
If they had an open roster spot, maybe a guy like Haseley is worth taking a chance on.
But why not, right? They’re obviously not going to spend to generate some runs. No guarantee on Haseley, and everything you say is true. Nonetheless, he was once highly regarded, and stranger things have happened.
Bob – who would you DFA to get Haseley? The most obvious candidates would probably be Zimmer or Mercado. Both have similar profiles to Haseley but have had more success offensively as professionals. Haseley is young but just hasn’t hit yet as a pro. Zimmer and Merc aren’t great but at least they have shown flashes of offense
@bobtillman
I completely agree. It’s never just extend or trade. When you’re good, like CLE is, there is a completely logical third option: play him out! Get two more years of exemplary performance, then let some other team take the risk of paying him deep into his 30s.
If CLE and Jose can’t arrive on an extension that shares the risk properly between player and team, the best thing to do is watch him go crazy over the next two years in an effort to maximize his free agent opportunity.
He should be demanding to be traded to the Yankees. The baseball Mecca in NY. The best fans on the planet. It’s every players dream to wear pinstripes
Why? Trade him and keep building til there is an elite core of youngsters.
Cleveland’s 40-man roster is full of prospects. If they went out and spent money on FAs, they’d have to waive a lot of those prospects. Then we’d be hearing of how dumb it was to lose the next Joey Wendle of Anthony Santander for little or nothing. In time, they’ll spend money. They’ve got a plethora of intriguing prospects and they’ll pounce on the guy that are willing to sign a team-friendly extension. It’s what they’ve done recently. It’s been their m.o. since the 90’s and it’ll continue when the time is right.
Agreed but the never hit on position players. Pitching yes, they know how to developing the, but position players they suck at
Cue the “hey, we tried to sign him” excuse before they unload him at the deadline.
It’s inevitable, so do you think they’d trade him without trying to resign him? Just a dumb comment.
Cleveland: Would you like to discuss an extension?
Ramirez: No.
Talks termed “informal.”
The point, Rob, is reportedly Jose wants to stay.
Cleveland: Would you like to discuss an extension?
Ramirez: I would — except all these old fans who can’t get past the name change are kinda bumming me out.
I just wanted them to add 1 MLB OF to start in LF.
Some have said Amed Rosario will play left and to be happy with that, but that means Gimenez plays short and Yu Chang likely plays 2B. A backup or minor leaguer has to start any way you slice it. Mercado is cheap so he’ll stick around. Zimmer shouldn’t be on the team any longer, he makes over 1 million (highest paid OF on the roster), and has enough playing time to know what you have. Yes, I’d rather Oscar Gonzalez and Kwan in the OF over Zimmer and Mercado, but they need another year in AAA or as a reserve. With a 50 million payroll thought they could add 1 major league OF to the roster, nope. Naylor won’t be ready for opening day so the OF is even more depleted to begin the year.
I was so wrong to think they’d sign ONE GOOD PLAYER, to boost the offense especially with a fanbase dealing with a name change. You go woke, you go broke, but in their case, they’re already broke I guess.