March 4: Angels owner Arte Moreno, D-backs owner Ken Kendrick, Reds owner Bob Castellini and Tigers owner Chris Ilitch were all opposed to proposing a $220MM CBT threshold, per Evan Drellich and Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic. Drellich and Rosenthal add that some concerned owners have pointed to the spending of the Dodgers and the Mets as reasons for trepidation with pushing the luxury tax threshold further north. Martino tweets, rather unsurprisingly, that the Mets and the Yankees are among the teams open to a “less punitive” CBT setup.
The Athletic report also indicates that the players were particularly irritated when MLB proposed counting the cost of player meals against the luxury tax. Whether that’s among the issues recently raised by Blue Jays righty Ross Stripling isn’t clear, but Stripling contended that the league “tried to sneak some shit past us” in the proposal’s “fine print” during the wee hours of Monday night/Tuesday morning negotiations. Health insurance and other player benefits already count toward the luxury tax under the terms of the prior CBA. League special assistant Glen Caplin called reports of MLB trying to include meal money within the CBT “grossly mischaracterized” as part of a statement included in Drellich’s article.
March 3: Major League Baseball’s most recent offer in collective bargaining proved unpalatable to the Players Association, which rejected it despite knowing the league was likely to follow by canceling some regular season games. Various members of union leadership described that as an easy decision, with the MLBPA particularly dissatisfied with the league’s proposals on the competitive balance tax thresholds and the amount of money that would be allotted for the pre-arbitration bonus pool.
While the union found the offer too slanted in favor of the league, some on the MLB side apparently viewed the proposal as going too far towards the players’ asks. Andy Martino of SNY reports that during a video call between all 30 ownership groups and MLB leadership, four owners voted against the terms of the league’s final offer to the union on Tuesday. MLB needs approval from 23 of the 30 ownership groups to agree to their end of a new CBA, so the league was able to proceed with its offer with the assent of the other 26 owners.
Obviously, the terms of that deal weren’t sufficient to get the union’s approval. Yet some of the owners who were on-board with the league’s proposal Tuesday are evidently hesitant to move any further in the players’ direction. Martino writes that the call “made it clear” that more owners would oppose any offer that pushes the base CBT threshold above the $220MM mark the league put forth. The MLBPA, meanwhile, proposed a $238MM base tax marker in 2022. Martino writes that the union refuses to entertain any offer with a 2022 tax threshold lower than $230MM.
There’s currently an $18MM gap on the luxury tax for 2022, and the parties are even more divided on the marker’s long-term future. The MLBPA has sought more rapid escalation of the threshold over the term of a potential CBA than the league has offered. Under the parties’ latest terms, the $18MM gap would rise to a $33MM divide by 2026 — the players were looking to set that year’s figure at $263MM, while MLB proposed $230MM for that season.
Martino’s report sheds some light on the challenges that remain for finding a mutually agreeable settlement on the CBT, which has proven perhaps the biggest sticking point in negotiations. The union has pursued a rapid expansion of the threshold, pointing to team spending habits suggesting the CBT has served as a de facto salary cap for clubs. Last season, five teams finished with CBT payrolls within $5MM of the $210MM base threshold. Two clubs, the Dodgers and Padres, pushed their CBT number above $210MM. Given the union’s longstanding opposition to any form of salary cap, it’s little surprise they’ve sought to dramatically increase the numbers this time around.
The league, meanwhile, has pursued the opposite initiative. MLB’s early CBA proposals included harsher penalties for tax payors, provisions that would’ve presumably made clubs even more reluctant to do so. It dropped the push for tougher penalties this week, but it hasn’t shown the appetite for the kind of higher thresholds the union seeks.
As MLBTR’s Tim Dierkes explored in December, the past two collective bargaining agreements have seen limited growth in the CBT thresholds. From the time of the tax’s introduction in 1997 through 2011, it wasn’t uncommon to see the CBT jump by more than 4% year over year. Since 2012, however, that growth has slowed considerably. The base CBT marker has moved from $178MM that year to $210MM last season, an average hike of less than 2% per year.
The league’s offer to move from $210MM to $220MM would represent a 4.8% year-over-year jump. MLB would presumably posit that’s a meaningful enough increase to be favorable to the players. However, it was followed by no movement on the tax in each of the following two years and minor increases in each of the two seasons thereafter. The union, meanwhile, seems intent on pulling in a more dramatic spike in the tax threshold to somewhat compensate for its slowed progression between 2012-21.
It’s not clear how many owners are inherently opposed to pushing that number beyond $220MM. Martino’s report hints at the conflicted interests that can arise among the ownership groups themselves. Presumably, some large-market clubs that are planning to exceed the CBT anyhow would be on-board with the union’s efforts to encourage penalty-free spending. Others could be anxious to draw a harder line, particularly with the league reportedly content to miss a month’s worth of regular season games in order to pressure the union to move in their direction.
If more than three of the owners who voted yes on MLB’s latest proposal are stringently opposed to going further, the league may be hard-pressed to find the votes to go past $220MM this year. That’d seemingly be unacceptable to the union. If there’s that kind of fundamental disagreement on the luxury tax, it’ll be essentially impossible for the sides to put a new CBA in place.
FSF
Hold STRONG players and don’t give those weasels an inch!
BuddyBoy
The players already won as everything is significantly better than before or completely new. Both sides are at fault at this point and neither care about the fans.
ChapmansVacuum
Players never striked this is a LOCKOUT! We could be having ST right now playing under the old CBA if not for that while they negotiated…
This is all the owners blame them!
phantomofdb
Owners are being cheap, and players are suggesting things that would ruin competitive balance in the game for the sake of $. It’s genuinely foolish to be fully on one side
Halo11Fan
We could have Spring Training now and a then a strike this Summer. How’d that work out in 1981 and 1994?
ksoze
@phantom Well put, people are quick to side with the players or the owners. Truth is both sides are to blame. If the Players really wanted a competitive league, they’d support a salary cap and floor. If the owners were not just as money hungry as the players, they’d also agree to a floor, and keep teams from pocketing millions that should go to building a competitive team.
BuddyBoy
The players are locked out because the last time they had a CBA expire and they weren’t locked out, they did strike and cost us the World Series.
roguesaw
And when the lock out costs us a World Series, what then?
Reds Fan In MS
Thing about it is the players are pissed at small market tanking and want to stop it, yet they want to raise the CBT so high that only the richest 4 or 5 franchises will buy up the best players.If that happens what do you think the other teams will do? They know they won’t be able to compete so they won’t spend crap. Scherzer made the comment that the Padres outspent the Yankees because of last year’s CBT, and that should never happen. So, Max do you want the Padres to spend or tank? Can’t have it both ways. As Harold Reynolds stated the players don’t really know what they want. I know who is advising the players. The scumbag, piece of crap Scott Boras.
User 4245925809
Eliminating the CBT, cease giving out cash to teams/owners complaining would show exactly who is being cheap and how free enterprise is supposed to work.
Let’s see these same teams get cut off from all financial support and see how much they complain about what is good for the game. Everyone who can think knows it’s the Pirates/Oaklands etc of the league who have been the issue with negotiations. Time to cut them out and get this done.
Patrick OKennedy
This is utter nonsense. If the CBT kept pace with MLB revenue, it would be near $300 M by now. The owners’ proposal of $220M is less than a 5% increase, and then 0 increase for two years after. Merely keeping pace with inflation would put it at $225M.
The players proposed $238M with the exact same tax rates as in the last CBA. That’s more than reasonable.
Harold Reynolds is full of crap, as usual. Another Kissass for the owners.
Prospectnvstr
How about the owners institute a salary floor on their own w/o the players (union) getting involved? That’d solve a good bit of the animosity from the players (and the fans).
The Saber-toothed Superfife
There is a floor. 26 x min. Salary
Elroy Tate
The owners proposed a $100million salary floor back in August.
si.com/mlb/2021/08/18/mlb-proposes-salary-floor-lo…
FSF
With a $180M cap and stiff penalties for going over. Let’s tell whole truth.
Patrick OKennedy
The 100M floor with what tax rate?
And only a 180M cap, with a 50% tax rate that would have immediately put the nine biggest spending teams over the tax threshold.
The players should have seized the salary floor and proposed it with the same $245M cap. See if they could get something reasonable.
Owners know damn well that there was a de facto salary cap in 2021 at 210M and just a 7% increase would put it at 225M, so anything less is an even harder de facto cap. Complete non starter. WANTING to miss games.
Yankee Clipper
Reds Fan: I’ve seen this idea posited several times (only post-lockout, of course) and nobody is willing to answer my question(s): Do the Rays run their team better than big-markets?
Can a team buy a championship?
ChapmansVacuum
So what your really saying is the only way the owners will agree to a fair deal is if the players make it hurt!
Redstitch108* 2
The owners are being cheap? Players are grossly overpaid. The economics of the game is broken because of the players’ crazy salaries. Tgis os the owners wanting to fix what is broken.
Yankee Clipper
Is it only okay then if the owners are grossly overpaid? And how does one define grossly overpaid – what’s the metric used? The only way to figure that out is to use percentages I presume. The only way to do that is for owners to open their books and they patently refuse – back to square one.
WooMai55
No, the players are pissed as the game is making money and those with the hands on that money hide behind a theoretical threshold …..(the CBT) as reason not to share it.
There is NOBODY that doesnt agree that the richer spenders should be taxed, but where does does that tax go, BACK TO THE OWNERS (not the players).
This is a petty argument by certain (money first and baseball second) owners who want an excuse not to spend.
gdjohnson
200M dollar cap. 190m dollar floor. Let’s see if the owners would accept that.
Katahdan
The players being greedy? Owners experience capital valuations that approach absurdity with TV contracts, advertising, gate revenues, and, not-to-mention, their “hard work” using tax payer dollars to build stadiums while using their own funds to snatch up housing so that we pay rent.
This is the players showing they aren’t stupid. The owners have already wrecked baseball.
Albert Belle's corked bat
And how do you know that the players would not have striked if there had never been a lockout to begin with?
Peg2
How’s it working out now?
Best Screenname Ever
Exactly. MLBPA and their internet fan club have tried to lie their way through. Pretending they want ‘competitiveness’ when what they want is the ability of big market teams to buy the WS every year. Pretending it was about pre-arb players when it was about busting the CBT.
Happy to see them locked out for the year.
Oh, and how’s that service time working out?
CleaverGreene
I would say handing out 10 year contracts to 28 year olds is not a sustainable business model, unless you have an offset of 5 pre-arb salary players for each 25M+ contract. That’s for your middle of the pack revenue teams.
Tomahawk Takeover
Woo, all business owners everywhere are money first. If you take all the risk, you have to know you’re going to make a certain amount of money. Stop whining about people making who are making a butt ton of money that are also spending butt ton of money.
speysideG
Harold Reynolds is a breath of fresh air in regards to the baseball media. 95% of the baseball media take the player’s union side because they need to kiss the ass of the players to gain access to interviews and scoops.
kingken67
“This is utter nonsense. If the CBT kept pace with MLB revenue, it would be near $300 M by now. ”
That’s misleading though. The LA Dodgers just signed a deal with Time Warner Cable to pay them $334M per year for the next 25 years for a local media contract. So that increases “MLB’s” revenue by $334M per year, but that’s not split among the 30 MLB teams with each getting $11.1M per year. That total amount goes to the Dodgers and ONLY the Dodgers, so raising the CBT threshold as if every team is benefiting from that deal is never going to work. The only way that works is if MLB goes to a complete revenue sharing model, where ALL the individual media deals for all teams are put into one pot and split evenly. But the owners will only go with that if it also comes with a hard salary cap and floor, and the players don’t want that. So they can’t sit there and act as if all the revenue increases in MLB in recent years have been evenly distributed and therefore should be making their way down to the players. They are as much of a block to that happening as the owners are.
ukpadre
I agree, neither side has the good of the game at heart. They’re just shredding it to bits for their own gain. It’s disgusting.
I speak the truth
Why do you want a floor? That’s insane in my opinion. What prudent baseball owner wants to pay someone like Colin Moran $15 million or more a year? The Pirates cut him when the was projected to get over $4 million in arbitration. Why? Not because they are unable to pay it. It’s because he’s production isn’t worth it. The Pirates spent the same $4 million they wound have spent on Moran by resigning Yoshi whom they obviously feel has more potential.
ukpadre
The Pirates I agree with, but the A’s (and others like the Rays) are where your argument falls down. If teams can win with below $100mil payrolls, why should they spend double that? We shouldn’t punish smart teams into being stupid. There need to be rules not based on spending but on competitiveness instead. Punishments for multi-year tanking, lottery for draft picks, etc. And on the other end, consequences for just trying to blow other teams out of the water financially for long periods of time (short term I don’t think is so bad).
ukpadre
If the players union was smart, they’d agree to play under the old CBA for now, to get regular season games going (which is MLB’s leverage) and the strike on Sept 30th to stop playoffs happening (which is the owners’ cash cow). Would give them more leverage as owners currently hold all the cards.
ukpadre
Players are actually underpaid when you compare it to overall revenues in the MLB. Players are the product, the entertainment, they bring in the money. Owners make bank for doing relatively little, yet keep grabbing a bigger and bigger share of the pie (while us fans get shat upon from a great height). There are no ‘heroes’ on either side, but your claim is just wrong.
ukpadre
What risk?! Ball clubs are so profitable that there isn’t any risk. Put together a team (with club revenues), make that money back and more over the course of the season, don’t even have to win or even be competitive. And even if a club broke even, the rate at which the price of clubs is going up (because of just how lucrative they are to own!) all an owner has to do is sit on the investment and make bank in a few years. Someone posted on here a link not long ago showing that owning a ball club and just holding it as an asset (so not even including revenues/yearly income) outperforms the stock market. Anyone crying poor on the behalf of the owners is either dumb or dishonest.
IHLgulls
The players want the most money, period. They don’t care one bit if every world series is won by a NY or LA team. Fans siding with the players are rooting against their own interests for no other reason than “I hate rich people”.
This isn’t factory workers protesting dangerous conditions and low pay. This is guys making hundreds of millions of dollars to throw a ball demanding more. If things continue the way they are they might as well contract 2/3 of the league because the Royals, Orioles, Reds, etc won’t stand a chance.
willpatten
If the players are successful in these negotiations small market teams will not be viable franshises and the league will have to contract which, in my mind, would be a wonderful thing. There’s not enough talent to field competitive teams right now.
Why do we believe that we can always have more and never less? Why do we cling to the ridiculous idea of constant growth?
kingken67
That’s precisely why the owners instituted the lockout instead of continuing under the old CBA. They weren’t going to cede all the leverage to the players as the season neared the playoffs.
Robertowannabe
Apparently the Pirates/Oaklands etc were not the issue…..
Jimbob 57
How long do you think it would be before the players strike once the lockout is over and no new CBA. They HATE the people that employ them. And don’t give one little bit about you or me
leemassey
As soon as they made %80-90 of this yrs salary. They are beholden to nothing but $$$$. Fk em
geotheo
The owners weren’t worried that the players would strike. They were worried that they WOULDN’T strike denying the owners a PR victory when the players stayed. That’s why they locked them out in DECEMBER when there are no games anyway. They didn’t want to risk the players showing up. They wanted missed games in April where attendance is generally low. With a 140 game season, owners keep their TV revenue and players get a 12% pay cut. So it’s a win for the owners
Jimbob 57
Players are controlled by greedy Billionaire Scott Boros , and that all you really need to know. He and his minions Scherzer , Miller and the rest say they are concerned about the integrity of the game , hogwash they are only concerned that there aren’t more free agents making 25 to 30 mil , they know that with the CBT at 220 mil teams can only afford a few players in that price range
WooMai55
So you’re proposing a model similar to the NFL…….I totally disagree that the players wouldn’t want a format that paid them 48% of the revenue.
WooMai55
If owners were opened up the finances of the game we’d all see where our money was going. It’s the subversive PR that the owners use,…for instance Liberty Media’s assurance of a higher payroll in 2022, just at the time of the lockout and when they’re in a position of losing Freeman (not our fault, we’ve given the money, it’s his fault).
leemassey
Go ask your boss to open up his books . Or if your a business owner think about your response to your employees demanding you to open your books or lol some people off the streets asking.
Yankee Clipper
Wait, Jimbob, so the owners are good because they’re just pure blooded capitalists, but Boras, who is essentially doing the same thing (business owner maximizing profit) is a greedy billionaire now? How in the world do you reconcile that in your head?! Lol. Man, what a unique take.
all in the suit that you wear
I think the owners and players should be able to agree on a salary floor and ceiling that will work for both sides.
Yankee Clipper
Lee, if your boss is engaged in negotiations and telling your collective bargaining that he and a collective of owners with whom he shares the money are barely making it, so they cannot give you what you ask for, yeah asking him to open the books is appropriate. The boss is introducing the evidentiary item, you’re simply asking for your turn to see it.
balloonknots
The problem is large market teams have their stadiums with great Corp dollars and revenues 4 times those of small market teams. If you want fairness and proper salary investment for all owners then it’s needs to be as a percentage of gross income. Max and min right off the balance sheet. Now mlb can manage that and maybe allow x percentage for planning ahead on teams that make a case for stadiums or other large capital investments. I bet many small market teams who compete and we know who they are already – spend a larger % of income on payroll and scouting than do several large market teams who hide behind the luxury tax as a cap
Halo11Fan
Clipper.. How many fans haven’t picked sides? Two percent? I’m happy to be one of that 2 percent.
No good guys, no bad guys. I’d love for the players to just shut up and negotiate. Don’t do it through the press. I would love for the owners to present a simple balance sheet. It would make things much simpler.
But even then, you’d have fans like you and Hammer disagreeing on what it means.
leemassey
Lol sorry that’s not how it works . I was a union member in 2 separate unions. In this case you have 30 separate businesses negotiating withith hundreds of players who are also being manipulated by agents who get a slice of the pie. Now of those 30 separate businesses very few if any are actually owned by a single person. Anyone involved in an ownership group can simply say no to opening the books and have a very good reason for doing so. Now back to my original statement of you being a business owner and have your employees come to you and say open your books. You can act hig and mighty and say here you would , but in real life is be willing to wager you’d tell them to shove it and rightly so.
Yankee Clipper
Lee: Your statement doesn’t make any sense for two reason: 1) You’re comparing a monopolized group of owners to “normal” business operations, and 2) you’re comparing the entertainment industry to regular employees.
Now to address your other point. I’ve been in several unions, I was a union rep, and I was on the management side of negotiations. Your assertion that “they may have a very good reason for dong so” leads to own conclusion: that reason is that profits are much better than what they claim to be. Your point about one owner over all 30 businesses is irrelevant here because MLB isn’t owned by a single person either.
Moreover, they can select which ever teams’ books they choose to open, they don’t even have to open all of them, but they open none. So your response is a hypothetical question that you chose to answer yourself? That’s not a very convincing argument. But believe what you want, man. Owners know it which is why they will compromise for the players.
Yankee Clipper
Halo11: Well, I think you’ve got a point, but what it means is simple: gross v. net. I don’t care, frankly, who get the money; but I can’t stand the constant spin with all the “owners are poor” narrative. I don’t like the way people continually muddy the waters. Just use facts. Stop inserting, “well they have to pay for “x” bills they have in this other endeavor too!” How does that apply to baseball profit? It doesn’t. It’s simply extra fluff to support a narrative.
Look, I fully support businesses & ownership, for without them, we have no capitalism, and we have no economic backbone in this country. But MLB owners, specifically, have taken full advantage of taxpayers & fans, & live under monopolistic protection.
Bottom line: If they’re going to claim they’re not making money publicly as an excuse, be ready to back it up. Do they owe the public open books? My opinion? Yes, if they took hundreds of millions to pay for a stadium that should be a condition.
sophiethegreatdane
@johnsilver
You’ve somehow confused Major League Baseball with “free enterprise”. MLB is not that in any way, it’s a controlled monopoly. No teams exist in a vacuum and all need the others to create a product. Yankees vs Tampa is not equivalent to Coke vs Pepsi. At all.
Fans need to stop confusing the internal workings of MLB with capitalism.
hossmandu
UKPadre — which is exactly why the owners locked them out, to prevent that leverage. This is a lockout, not a strike.
leemassey
Clipper you assuming that I’m answering my own question is assuming way to much. I wasn’t. I was laying out that there could be a myriad of possibilities such as some minority owners may not want their business holdings interest known to the world. Who knows what their reasons may be. Secondly all business’s that aren’t publicly traded are essentially a monopoly as in they don’t answer to but the individual owners or ownership group. As to entertainment employees vs “regular” employees. That’s part of the problem right there. These players put themselves above the fans. Their not. They are no better than you or I. Yes they can play the sport better than us. Whoopie. I can program a computer better than the average person, does that mean I deserve a entitled status ? No. I can repairadvandced robotics and medical equipment such as MRI and CT SCANNERS. I’m no better than you or anyone else and neither are the players.
Not a clever name
I agree but it’s interesting Oakland and Pittsburg didn’t vote against the current offered increase.
Patrick OKennedy
Actually 48% of all local revenue, including local TV revenue, goes into the revenue sharing pool, and is then divided equally among the 30 teams.
There is no question that the players’ mindset is keeping them from reaping greater overall money, IMO. It turns out that they’d have been further ahead financially if they had a salary cap based on 50% of revenue and a floor that was about 80% of that, back in 1994. But that is only true if the owners came clean with actual revenue numbers.
There are two completely different angles that observers here are taking toward this topic. One is what we, a commenter, thinks is “fair” or “good for the game”, but there is also the reality of what can get a deal done.
The latter is based on the reality that the players have chosen their opposition to any kind of salary cap as the hill that they’re going to die on, and they’ve spilled too much blood since 1994 to cede that ground now.
That being the case, the owners knew full well that a $220M CBT was not going to fly, and adding the cost of meals into the salary equation is just adding insult to injury. Owners knew that they were presenting a proposal that was dead on arrival, while threatening to cancel opening day and games, and simultaneously leaking to the media that they were close to a deal.
That’s where we are.
Maury Brown’s piece at Forbes is spot on. Manfred has a group of rogue owners who obviously are okay with missing games, and their CBT is more important to them than baseball.
Pete'sView
I’m all for the players, but they need to stop pushing the CBT higher and accept a sturdy Salary Floor which would force all owners to be competitive (without forfeiting their competitiveness to the Dodgers and Yankees). The Floor and the Ceiling can inch up incrementally every two years.
The owners need to give arbitration to all players after two years, and those two years start as soon as a player joins the Major League club before August 1st. (Meaning no SuperTwos). The next year a player comes up—no matter for how long—he has acquired a year of service.
Playoffs stay at 10 teams. (Of course the owners balk at that) or the 162=game season is meaningless. ELEVEN teams were better than the Braves last year,
roguesaw
It’s actually 40 x minimum salary.
The Saber-toothed Superfife
Brainiac!
Yankee Clipper
Lee: Okay, now we are down to the premise of your argument: “The players are no better than you or I [sic].”
Yes, so this is what you feel the players deserve for what they do. That’s subjective and unarguable, so I won’t even try because I think all entertainers make too much as well. Next point;
Single business monopolies “in essence” are wholly difference than Congressionally approved / protected monopolistic conglomerates. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous, man. C’mon. MLB has protections like no other. And as far as small markets protecting other “interests” or whatever, okay, but no taxpayer money then, and let’s use some mid-or-large-market team examples. Someone has to have a book that can support their claim after all, right? Otherwise, at some point the reason becomes excuse & the excuse becomes myth.
kingken67
Fine, so even with 48% of local revenue going into revenue sharing that is evenly split that still means the Dodgers keep $184M per year from their deal and the rest of the league gets $5.334M per year. So yeah, the Dodgers have no problem with a CBT “limit” of $300M given they already clear over half that amount from just their TV deal.
Compare that to Cincinnati, who only get $48M per year for their TV deal They get to keep 52% of that, or 24.96M, then can add that whopping $5.334M from LA and have a total of about $30M between the 2, compared to LA’s $185M that they have from what they kept of their own deal and the $768K from Cincinnati. Bottom line is the major markets are eating up most of those “MLB revenue gains” in recent years, so basing the CBT on what they’re pulling in still leaves the small and mid market teams out in the cold.
The players can make opposition to a salary cap the hill they’re willing to die on, but need to remember that phrase because they’re marching headlong into a propeller blade and very well may die on that hill, taking the entire sport with them.
wilkes47
that’s a great point. they could still begin ST even if the CBA isn’t settled. I’m a teacher and we started a school year once without a contract. but our language maybe just allowed the old contract to remain i. effect until
the new one was settled
FSF
But the Dodgers aren’t the only team that ponies up or will moving forward. There are a lot of teams like the Yanks, Sox Cubs Giants that will give the Reds of the world ~$5M each so their collecting a quite a few of these checks.
leemassey
Ok cool now we are getting somewhere and in agreement on some things. As to the stadium issue , oh you have now really struck a nerve. Let’s go right to Tampa. As a recent article right here in this site wrote. The proposal was for a 27,000 seat stadium for a mere $800 million. Are you fkn kidding me??!!!! Yet I have to give the owner credit here as they stepped up and we’re willing to cover half the cost. But 27000 seating capacity? What a complete joke for that cost. Personally I don’t think any taxpayer money should be used at all for stadiums unless it’s in the form of a loan or the team agrees to a lease where the municipality makes an actual profit . As to baseballs protected status, that needs to end yesterday. I’ve never understood why they get it and have always been against it. Here’s what else I’m against in regards to the owners and their income stream. Games not available on free TV when they are playing in publicly financed stadiums and also having their protected status. If I the tax payer am footing the bill for the stadium, I damn sure shouldn’t have to pay for some streaming service to watch or have to not only pay for cable to then have to pay for extra channels to access the games. But that all brings us back to why do they need these extra revenue sources. The exorbitant demands of the players. It’s the snake eating its own tail.
Halo11Fan
The owners have tried playing without a contract before.
How’d 1981 and 1994 work out?
That’s a non-starter.
Catuli Carl
If the owners hadn’t triggered a lockout, the players would have gone on strike in August/September to put more pressure on the owners to avoid missing playoffs. That’s why they triggered the lockout now. To avoid a strike at the end of the season.
grabarkewitz
Harold Reynolds knows who signs his checks. He works for the MLB Network, the same network which fired Ken Rosenthal because he spoke the truth about the owners. Reynolds doesn’t have a job lined up at the Athletic and he already burned his bridges with ESPN. He has to be the owner’s mouthpiece to keep getting paid.
Tnope
It seems like the most “fair” option would be to have a salary cap and floor set based on a percentage of revenues, say 49% or so, and have the owners release their revenue like every other professional sport. That will never happen though because neither side trusts the other
outinleftfield
Too long a subject to do in one post. Revenue and profits have gone way up in MLB, $1.6 billion since 2019, so you are trying to say that its ok for the owners to take huge profits while paying the players less and less just so the league can be more competitive?
leemassey
Ok so now we are in some agreement and some mutual understanding. You bring up baseballs protected status ,and it needs to end . Second ,publicly funded stadiums. Wow what a joke. Not a fan. As a recent article on this site here pointed out , a recent proposal in Tampa was for a 27000 seat stadium to be built for a mere $800 million. WTF. Well at least the ownership was willing to put up half the funding. I’m not in favor of any public funding for stadiums unless it’s a loan with ownership of the team used as collateral or the team leases the stadium where the municipality actually makes a nice profit off of the lease and hold the team accountable for maintenance and any improvements the team wants. This brings me to revenues. These teams playing in publicly funded stadiums , should not be allowed to hold fans hostage to seeing games on TV. The should be on free TV or cable TV without having to pay extra for special channels or streaming channels. Yet they are forced to these extremes due to the players outrageous fiscal demands. Business 101 . Controllable cost. You do your best to maximize controllable cost.
Tnope
Institute both a floor and cap, tie them directly to revenue like other professional leagues. Seems like that would be “fair” to both sides but neither side trusts the other enough to do that
outinleftfield
Dodgers are over $300 million per year from their local TV contract alone.
baseballhistory
The final offer that the owners made was the best offer the players ( union) will get. The owners will never crack, and if the players don’t accept this offer, ( it won’t be on the table indefinitely), there will be no baseball this year. Scott Boras is responsible for the current impasse.
leemassey
As I said before Boras is the Putin of the baseball world
Patrick OKennedy
I’m willing to bet that they’ll get a marginally better offer.
When the owners offer an increase of less than five percent in the CBT, with zero increase for two more seasons, that offer is not intended to reach an agreement.
Owners care more about a few million dollars that other teams might spend, than they do about the game of baseball or the fans.
Boras has nothing to do with that.
Tnope
I think the answer has to be yes. They consistently get more wins per dollar than any or the team.
leemassey
Boras has everything to do with this. He needs to be banned. He is a pariah and artificially drives up the cost of even the most marginal of players. If I were an owner I’d never sign a player who has him as an agent and if I had a player who hired him I’d immediately trade them.
Halo11Fan
“Speaks the truth”.
Ha, Ha, Ha.
tigerfan1968
that is why they are owners and you are not…they do not throw money away.
earmbrister
Four of my family members voted against baseball.
I’m no longer wasting my time and my $ on baseball.
dmarcus15
The Cubs aren’t small market and they are tanking . It’s the fastest way to rebuild now and it sucks.
dodgerfan83
That’s not factually correct. All owners are required to send a percentage of their tv deals into a pool that then gets divided up among the teams. That’s where the revenue sharing money comes from. Each team got roughly 40-50 million from revenue sharing last year, and the same amount from MLb tv deals. So owners are receiving 80 million in money and spending 50, means if their own gate receipts and tv deal nets them 50 million, they are simply using the revenue sharing money to fund their payroll and pocketing all the mlb to money and gate money, and they don’t have to spend a dime of their own profits.
P N Protocol
Thanks for the correction, I was typing off the top of my head.
So, the owners are even greedier than I opened. I didn’t even touch on the reduction of MiLB teams, the fact that the owners don’t want to pay MiLB players for ST, and the potential of a new revenue stream in ads on uniforms and helmets. Hell, they’ve even sold the naming rights to the stadiums, so that it’s sometimes hard to remember their names.
Basically, it sounds like the owners want MiLB players to be almost unpaid interns, and MLB players making MLB’s minimum wage.
“I would pay you less if I could.”
P N Protocol
I can agree with you that, from a viewpoint of humanity and dignity, we are (should be) all the same.
However, we are talking about specialty jobs. The players are highly paid because of the revenue they generate for the teams/owners.
You talk about being a good programmer. Would you do that job for minimum wage? It sounds like you are good with electronics. Would you do that for minimum wage?
I could go on a whole tangential rant about wage slavery, etc., but I’ll spare everyone.
Salary cap: “I’d like to offer you more, because you are worth it. Your performance generated tens of millions of dollars on excess value for the club. It helped boost attendance, and you are in the top 5 in jersey sales. The fans would love to see you in our uniform for your entire career. But, there’s this arbitrary number I need to stay under, even though I’m making more money every single year. Some owners cry about barely making ends meet, but we’re all rolling in dough.”
leemassey
To answer you no I wouldn’t do it for minimum wage. And these players damn sure aren’t doing it for minimum wage. Nor would I expect the owners of the companies I worked for to show Meir books or essentially make me 50/50 partners with them. Or to tell the customers that hey I’m more talented than you that’s why your paying $20 for a Pepsi out of your vending machine and $50 for a hamburger in the cafeteria. The work I did actually did matters. These guys play a damn game. I never put myself above a single human being or thought I was special. These guys think they are above it all and all the fans. I did my job did it well got paid a fair wage and my bosses made a good profit. That’s just how capitalism works.
P N Protocol
The minimum that these players are making was negotiated by their union.
The players, and that game that they play, are the product that the owners are selling. If your company’s revenues went through the roof due to what you do, would you feel like you are being compensated fairly, or would you ask for a raise?
I’m not trying to pick on you or your job in particular. I could make this third person.
We may have different outlooks, and we may just fundamentally disagree. That’s OK. I’m here for information and discussions, not arguments. I hope you have been having a good day, and that it continues.
leemassey
I hope your having a great day as well. That’s a very fair question,and one I’ll happily answer. Of course I would and have and did receive. You wanna know the difference? I asked. And I asked for a reasonable amount,and didn’t threaten my employer with a strike. Let’s not kid ourselves here either about this lockout. The owners knew 1994 would happen again . Also I didn’t ask for a %68 raise. I also didn’t make other ridiculous demands of my employer. I understood the pecking order of employer and employee. We were not partners. I was treated well and with respect or I moved 9n to an employer who did. It’s that simple. If these players aren’t happy in MLB, they are free to play in Korea or Japan or 9n the independent leagues here in America.
Pete'sView
leemassey — The problem here is that the players can’t move on to another equal employer due to the absurd anti-trust exemption given to MLB.
Korea and Japan are not equal in any way to MLB and both leagues you sited have substantial restrictions on how many foreign players can be signed.
I think all the players are asking for (even though we both might agree that they aren’t paid badly) is their labor (which is the product) should rise with the enormous revenues MLB is taking in.
leemassey
As I’ve previously stayed I think the anti-trust exemption is ridiculous and needs to go away. And again no one is forcing the players to play baseball. They are paid in the top 5 to 10 % of wage earners in America and some of them even higher. I have no sympathy for them. I’ll say it again, all business owners who are capitalist , get into business to make as much money as possible. When an employee gets to expensive and or becomes a problem said business owner will more times than not move on to a new employee.asking for a raise is one thing, but a %68 raise is just flat out ridiculous and I would simply tell said employees have a nice day I’ll just hire a new crew.
Pete'sView
leemassey — Good luck to the owners finding players of the caliber now in the Majors. As it is, the quality of talent overall is less than it was even 10-15 years ago. Wait till you see the level of play without many of the current players.
I started out feeling very little compassion for the players based on what most of them make, but as others on this thread have said, player salaries have gone down over the last 5 years while the owners are raking in more and more profits.
What’s more, it’s clear the owners have not bargained in good faith. So now I’m clearly in the players corner.
leemassey
How can the players salaries have literally gone down when they had a cba with guaranteed salary minimums and arbitration raises not to mention FA raises? Now did they not raise at the rate of the previous 5 years? That’s a different argument. But to say their pay went down is Ludacris. As for replacement player s play quality, I’m fine with it. I’m sure I will see players out there giving it their all,which is what I miss. And since it will be the players already either ready for the bigs or close to it plus players just beneath that level , within a few yrs things will be close to ,it not at the level they are now. So again I’d be more than happy if the owners just started from scratch so long as they lowered all prices for everything across the board.
smuzqwpdmx
The players won the unimportant breadcrumbs. The tax level is what matters, and the ownership offer is well below inflation so it’s a reduction in real terms. Any agreement which forces payrolls lower is a loss for the players, regardless of what other concessions they won.
Tomahawk Takeover
Real world inflation and baseball have nothing to do with each other. Their bank accounts can’t tell the difference. Let’s not cry for the players alternating insane money.
lucas0622
The players won everything? The owners are purposely making the CBT lower so they have a reason to not spend on their players. Revenue and salary doesn’t keep up with the inflation rates of the the world. And the wins for the players, don’t really matter that much to the owners because they barely/don’t affect the money they rake in. Any players offer has been a win for the owners by far, that just shows you how much the owners are trying to break the union and get everything they want
Please, Hammer. Don't hurt 'em.
The players probably want to wait until 7 owners vote against it before they sign. As long as only 4 owners feel ripped off they figure there is room to slant it even more in their favor.
FSF
This was not a real vote IMO. It’s all contrived theatre by the owners to play a media game.
They probably pulled names out of a hat to determine who the 4 (previously agree number of votes) owners would be that would vote ‘no’.
seamaholic 2
Ding ding ding. We have a winner. Yes, that is absolutely true.
Halo11Fan
yes, but those four teams have something in common.
They all spent, they all didn’t win, they are probably all lost money which forced all but the Angels to tank and break up their team.
Is there a 5th team that matches those criteria?
The odds of selecting those four teams are astronomic.
Halo11Fan
I don’t think the phrase “absolutely true” means what you think it means.
Patrick OKennedy
We don’t really know the motives of the individual owners Halo, but I’d bet on the idea that all four are not the same. Chris Ilitch is not the same as his ol man was, that’s for sure.
The Tigers were not forced to tank at all. They made a choice, and they did a very poor job of trading their assets once they decided to break it up. They got practically nothing for JD Martinez and Justin Verlander, while Upton was a pure salary dump. I could go on, but Chris Ilitch was all about the money the past five years.
chiblitz
Most players don’t have a long shelf life. The owners go on and on and on and …..
FSF
Not if an entire season gets canceled. Too many naive fans think that all owners are sitting on some huge pile of cash. Not the case. They are making a business play and gambling every bit as much if not more than the players.
The rich players can do whatever they want. The vast majority of the rest have earned a few hundred thousand per year after taxes. They haven’t really lived the “good life” yet and for them to be collecting $15K/month stipends will work just fine for them.
jb226
Maybe not cash. What they do have, indisputably, is a billion dollar asset they can leverage to last basically as long as they want. Certainly much longer than most of the players. And then when they’re done, they can just squeeze even harder to recoup it. One or two seasons of “rebuilding” will make you back what you lost in a season not played.
The players, meanwhile, are probably seeing their money flushed down the toilet for every game that disappears. Their best outcome, in terms of recouping that money, is the status quo (ie, the owners agree to pay them their full salaries — bloody unlikely); any other situation is worse. The uber-rich players will be fine either way, of course, but they’re greatly outnumbered by those who need a deal and who need to maximize their short careers.
Yeah, both sides are gambling. But one side is a guy and one side is the house.
FSF
Yes and that “guy” has no overhead and can live just fine on $15K. You really think the owners are interested in mortgaging their equity to the tune of $100 million per year??? They (and their families) will miss that a lot more than the “guy” that has to get by on $15K. Not to mention a full year will start to drastically erode the value of the franchise and relationships with their broadcast partners, not to mention PLENTY of familial relationships.
Doug S.
You do realize it’s the fans that lose if the players win right? Who pays the difference? You think the owners won’t pass those fees onto us?
FSF
So don’t watch baseball or buy tickets. It’s that simple on an individual level.
Holy Cow!
Don’t have to go to the games.
Don’t have to pay for cable.
Don’t have to buy gear or memorabilia.
But there’s enough free things you can utilize to follow the game.
Yankee Clipper
Doug, do you really think that “the fees” aren’t passed on to “us” anyway, regardless of whether players get a raise or not? There’s always going to be an excuse for owners to raise prices as long as fans will pay them.
slider32
The cash cow for the owners is the TV rights, the teams that have good deals are king!
padnastikador
Doug S. for the win. Nailed it. If the players win, the fans lose.
WooMai55
By that logic, you pay your money to line the billionaire’s pockets?
The Saber-toothed Superfife
What going on is bs. Teams would spend more but players are asking for idiot contracts…and…pushing the limit at how much of an idiot can we get someone who is spending someone else’s money to be.
Face it, Correa gets signed at $25M. The reality is players/agents/fans know more or less what a teams’ payroll is likely to be. Everyone knows, the big ask diminishes other player’s parameter of earnings. The players want payrolls expanded and bigger parameters, which the players know, will only end up being spent on a few more big asks, star power potential, money drawing players – not the average joe ballplayer.
IF THEY DID, they wouldn’t be pushing the parameters, they would be saying, “look, each one of you employ at least ONE superstar, $20-$30M player. We don’t think its fair Max Scherzer makes $40M while a bunch of guys make only make $.65M. We want you to take that superstar money, divide it by 26 and add that to the minimum salary, because we want the pie divided more equally. We don’t want to force you to spend more money than you do or tell you how to run your businesses, that’s Un-American. We will take what we have and divide more fairly, as a players union.”
That would be THE UNION SERVING THE PLAYERS. So…. minimum salary becomes what? $2M ? 3M?
How long before the cat spending the fat cat’s money gets it back up? ( And….the strategy works, payroll naturally go up, in pursuit of……)
The real Steinbrenner never had a payroll of $200M+.
The Saber-toothed Superfife
I figure it.like this….most ballplayers are human like me…they have millionaire/billionaire envy. Their heads are spinning with the possiblities…..face it, in some cases, we are talking about generational money here.
There is a mad dash for that status, as opposed to level headedness.
speysideG
Players and the Union are the weasels spreading disinformation and distorting the financial truth. Fact is players make the vast majority of the Net Profit as they take more than 50% of the revenues but pay 0% in operating expenses.
leemassey
Hold strong owners and break the unions backs. Remember you own the team and we the fans are being priced out of the game to pay these greedy children to play a game. No fans no baseball.
rangersfan77
I have previously been in support of the owners regarding this contract, but I have begun to shift for the players. Just look at NFL or NBA and you position will likely change. Although the numbers are exorbitant, it has become more clear as I’ve done a little research, that the owners are indeed “squeezing” the Players on several fronts. The owners are the owners and consequently are entitled to maximize their profits; however, good, smart and honest business sense dictates that owners should examine similar and like business operation ….i.e. NFL &NBA. At this point, if the players “cave”, the owners are in the ultimate position to virtually dictate the players futures. Players will definitely be sacrificing in the present attempting to gain a similar/equal foothold as compared to football & basketball players and MUST stand together for the future of players to come and to assure baseball has a future at all.
leemassey
My position will never change. After nearly 50 yrs of being a fan and never missing a game be it by way of TV,radio, or being there in person, last season was the first time I said fk it and did not go to or watch a game on TV. I rarely even listened on the radio, and when I did it was simply because I was in the car on a long drive. There’s an independent baseball team in the area that’s quite entertaining and extremely affordable and fan friendly and I’m more than happy to support them than a bunch of cry baby’s who think they are entitled to everything. Oh and they aren’t preachy either. It’s not allowed. Just like if I were at work and started perching some woke B.S ID GET FIRED, they are off the team. Their one job while there in uniform is to play baseball and entertaining the fans, signing autographs for the fans, they have meet and greets with the fans which are mandatory. The stadium has an actual family section for those families who don’t want their kids or themselves around alcohol. Concession are super affordable, like I said just an all around great enjoyable time. So no I won’t be changing my mind. The players ruind the game. I hope the owners lock em out at least 1 full season
Al Hirschen
player meals against the luxury tax..really!! BS move
Halo11Fan
Maybe, but fans have no idea how much teams spend on crap like this.
If it’s a small amount, who cares? But it’s not. Actually, publicizing how much it is pretty darn smart.
Jimbob 57
The players are controlled by Scott Boros and his minions
Jimbob 57
This is a long running fued between Scott Boros and the owners ask Jim Abbott how Boros screwed him with The Angels . Boros wants total control
leemassey
Scott Boras is the Putin of the baseball world.
hoof hearted
Hold on strong owners, it’s your money until it’s their money. Oh and it’s your business
Geno55
Times are tough we need baseball but I think the players are being paid very handsomely me as a fan l am struggling with inflation prices of everything rocketing upwards and $5 dollars a gallon for gasoline it would be nice to look forward to baseball this summer but bigger things are going on than a baseball lockout Turmoil with Russia attacking Ukraine For no good reason
No player should be bigger than the game
leemassey
No player should be bigger than the game or ITS FANS
davidk1979
I hate the owners like Nutting, Montfort and Dolan so much.
Robertowannabe
I would guess that it was not these 3: guys that voted against this deal. Teams like the Cubs, Yanks, and Red Sox have liked using the CBT and the penalty thresholds as excuses to control salary and played the penalty thresholds to,their benefits.
topchuckie
Read the Martino article:
“In trying to strike a balance of pleasing those owners and others — like the Yankees’ Hal Steinbrenner and the Mets’ Steve Cohen — who want a less punitive CBT and a full season, Halem was forced to present a proposal that was dead on arrival when it landed on the players’ table Tuesday.”
sny.tv/articles/sources-four-mlb-owners-against-le…
Halo11Fan
The only way I know how to do it is to make the penalties less severe. Then allow a 12 team playoff and don’t give much of an advantage for winning your division. The advantage of 5 times the payroll is more than enough.
But the players don’t want that. The players want there to be a bigger bonus for spending 5 times as much as your opponent.
That’s where the players are full of crap. They don’t want competitive balance, they just want owners to spend.
Yankee Clipper
“ That’s where the players are full of crap. They don’t want competitive balance, they just want owners to spend.”
This is where the players need to pick their battles and smarten up. The money will be there. They need to tighten up on this crap. They must understand that higher CBT means good for all and compromise on the bonus.
JoeBrady
If anyone believes that the players want a more competitive landscape, then they are idiots. Everything they are bargaining for favors the large market teams.
flamingbagofpoop
This is why they should avoid negotiations via the media. Anyone that is capable of even basic critical thinking skills and not stupidly biased can see the contradictions in the claims being made by both sides.
joegriff
Exactly
I root for Cincinnati & what chance you they have to compete against 230 million.
The owner only has 400 million of his own.
I’m fine with the low salaries going up but these 30-40million a year players salary’s are insane.
Robertowannabe
I was wrong on the exact teams voting no but it was not the 4 bottom feeders that everyone is pointing to. Angels surprisingly were one of the 4.
Halo11Fan
What do these four teams have in common.
They spent trying to win, they didn’t, and all but the Angels have drastically cut payroll because it didn’t work.
Once you realize the four teams, it makes sense.
dsett75
Angels, Diamondbacks, Reds and Tigers, I believe.
hoof hearted
Players want it all and they wanted all now. I agree that players are full of crap and some…..
WooMai55
I believe it’s more the ‘second tier’ teams your Reinsdorf’s that are leading the suppression. He doesnt want other teams to spend money (that he’s not willing to personally spend) and he’s got a ready made excuse ….in that he’s never break the CBT threshold.
I doubt the non-spenders are concerned, they only dream of $200m.
CleaverGreene
IMO, the holdouts are Reisdorf, Attanasio, Castellini and Fisher.
CCCTL
John Fisher couldn’t give a f*** about the CBT “roof”, he’s not going to give that much money to payroll anyway.
What he will absolutely vote against is a salary FLOOR.
Hello, Newman
I have: Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Oakland, TB
You?
48-team MLB
I have Kansas City instead of Tampa Bay but the other three are the same.
DarkSide830
TB relies on tweeners and young players more than anyone else. they probably fif say no. KC has new ownership, fwiw.
Robertowannabe
and apparently none of these teams;…
erauber
My bet
Balding Vinny
Miami too. Had to be why jeets left.
bucsfan0004
I’m almost certain two of the teams are the Cubs and Red Sox from everything that was printed last year. Its the big market teams, not the small market who are against raising the CBT.
WooMai55
White Sox, Angels, Braves (possibly Red Sox)
White Sox: dont want to spend, use CBT as an excuse, doesnt want other teams
spending
Angels: big brother syndrome with the Dodgers next door.
Braves: supress other teams from spending wildly as they are the poster boys for
achievement on a budget.
Red Sox: dont want Yankees to spend and Henry has shown (with Liverpool FC)
that he’s not a throw money as the situation, he’s more interested in a
business model that reinvests the resources
dsett75
It’s Angels, Diamondbacks, Reds and Tigers. All teams that tried to spend & didn’t win so they tore it down. Except for the Angels, I guess.
I speak the truth
And you’re wrong.
The_Voice_Of_REASON
CANCEL the season, owners. Shove it in the players’ greedy, ungrateful faces!
Holy Cow!
I can’t wait until Opening Day.
Timothy Frith
Me neither.
dsett75
I can’t wait for the FA frenzy!
FSF
Unfortunately, I think you could be waiting a long while.
Vizionaire
dumbest troll!
Timothy Frith
Don’t call me a troll ever again.
Robertowannabe
I couldn’t resist………Troll!! 🙂
hersch
Players would lose millions and owners would lose billions. Not sure that canceling the season is a solution for either side.
leemassey
Amen
ajrodz1335
So Stu said no most definitely
Stevil
Just a guess: Fisher (A’s), Dolan (Guardians), Nutting (Pirates), and Sherman (Marlins).
dshires4
White Sox owner was absolutely one of them I’d guess.
Stevil
Evan Drellich reports the teams were allegedly the Angels, Diamondbacks, Reds, and Tigers.
Tacoshells
What happens in the case of your last sentence ? That is they both disagree so strongly on this it’s impossible for a new cba? Do we go on forever without MLB? Is there a third party that can intervene? Can someone file a lawsuit to put things in motion ?
Yankee Clipper
It’s called, impasse. Then, the MLB can impose their last contract offer. Unless, that is, the mediator/arbitrator determines that MLB did not negotiate in good faith and/or violated FLSA; which is why, when all these anti-union people on here think what MLB is doing is good, MLB is actually setting itself up to fail with Manfred naively giggling about it like a kid. They’re making MLBPA’s case easier to prove. Look at the ‘94 strike. MLB was actually found to have violated FLSA then too. It’ll be their death sentence for negotiations and the MLBPA will not only win now, but they will light MLB up on the next CBA too. It’s not a very wise negotiation tactic.
That’s a very good question you asked.
Halo11Fan
It is an interesting question. How can you force teams that exploit revenue sharing to spend? How about teams that don’t spend a certain amount have to open their books and prove they are not exploiting revenue sharing?
That ought to make everyone happy.
FSF
How about the owners offering a $100M floor which they have, and a $220M ceiling (which they also have). Why not combine those two owner suggestions in one offer and call it a day? I’m pretty sure the players would be willing.
flamingbagofpoop
And what are the players giving up?
Patrick OKennedy
When there was already a salary cap, and the paltry increase in the CBT to 220M is less than 5%, with inflation of 7%, and no increase for two more seasons, there would be an even harder salary cap for at least three years.
Plus expanded playoffs
Plus uniform advertising
Plus no adjustment in Super 2 eligibility
Plus no adjustment in free agency
Plus salaries not close to keeping pace with revenues
THAT is what the players are giving up
FSF
@flamingbagofpoop
Just what your name says, crap. They shouldn’t have to is the point of all this.
Patrick OKennedy
Easy. They don’t get revenue sharing dollars until they are spent on player contracts above the minimum salary. The revenue goes into a pool and teams are eligible to withdraw from the pool only to pay players’ salaries over the 700K minimum, or whatever it is. The withdrawals are limited amounts just at what they get now.
WooMai55
Why are the owners so obsessed with the players having ‘give up’ anything. They just want a share of the games wealth.
Improve the game by putting money into the game, rather than their own pockets.
CleaverGreene
Because that’s how labor negotiations work.
Tomahawk Takeover
Woo, they already get a share of the games wealth. Who the hell do you think is paying them?
Omarj
So what I gathered was that 2 teams went over the tax, and some were close. I can understand having improved incremental raises, but sounds like the players are fighting for too high of a ceiling. I’m more interested in knowing where if there’s ramifications against teams who under-spend. For being under the floor, remaining $ saved they should disperse with players who played (divided by games played by percentage, by position, fielder/pitcher) and collecting money from those teams use it towards bonus pool. That would force teams who spend less to contribute more.
Vizionaire
there is no floor in baseball. which is bad!
tstats
You spelled good wrong
Vizionaire
so you want the money invested into baseball or increasing pocket dust of cheap billionaires?
Tomahawk Takeover
Tstats, so you don’t want teams that can easily afford to spend more money to spend more money? You enjoy teams crying poor when it’s not case?
BuddyBoy
If it was truly about improving competition they would have a floor. The fact that they care more about the ceiling tells you everything. They want the big money clubs to be able to spend more. That’s fine, but stop trying to convince us fans that they care about anything but money (both sides)
WooMai55
Yep, both sides are using the CBT as the battle ground.
Competitive Balance,
Increase/decrease %money in the game
Spending in general,
Excuses not to spend (Reinsdorf….I cannot exceed CBT threshold).
Penalise those that want to spend.
Teams not spending at all (dont want to be forced in spending).
This was always more complicated than Owners vrs Players. The fact that the 4 have been outed only reiterates the disquiet amongst the owners (someone disclosed the info to Martino…..prob Steinbrenner or Cohen)
Tiger_diesel92
I wonder who’s the other teams who are opposed to the cbt new limit.
Vizionaire
owners other than yankees’, mets’, dodgers’, angels’, rangers’, padres’……..
amk1920
You underestimate Arte Moreno’s cheapness
Halo11Fan
If Moreno is so cheap, how come he’s the only one of the four who didn’t break down his team?
Yankee Clipper
Pretty much everybody but Cohen & Guggenheim.
WooMai55
….and Yankees.
Timothy Frith
26 owners voted for MLB’s recent CBA proposal while the other 4 voted against it, so the owners approved in a 26-4 vote. Amazing.
Tom Emansk1
Sounds like MLB has 4 owners that are too broke to be owning an MLB team. Sucks to be them. Think the other owners get together at their country clubs and joke about how poor those other 4 owners are?
Polish Hammer
Too broke? They’re instant billionaires whenever they decide to cash in, just a matter of how many billions.
Tom Emansk1
I was being facetious. They’re obviously not actually poor. That said, if you’re rich enough to buy the team but not rich enough to operate it, you probly shouldn’t be owning a team.
Tom Emansk1
I was being facetious. They’re obviously not actually poor. That said, if you’re rich enough to buy the team but not rich enough to operate it, you probly shouldn’t be owning a team.
phantomofdb
What does “not rich enough to operate it” mean? You’re sounding like one of those people that wants owners to run their business at a loss to appease fans.
Tom Emansk1
Broadly speaking, are they rich enough to keep the cash in the business? Any owner that’s keeping the cash in their business should have no problem with player payroll, overhead, and other business expenditures. But any owner who is taking a high percentage of the revenue out of the business (ie using it for personal enrichment) is not rich enough to actually operate a team the way it should be operated. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be entitled to some yearly income from their business, but if they’re consistently taking out enough that it’s interfering with their ability to even attempt to compete, then yeah, they shouldn’t be MLB owners.
Patrick OKennedy
Every single MLB owner can afford a payroll over $100 million- easily.
All national TV revenue is split evenly
All MLB.tv revenue is split favoring smaller market teams
48% of ALL local TV revenue goes into revenue sharing and split evenly
52% of local TV revenue and gate receipts stay with home teams
10.7 billion in MLB revenue averages $357 million per team
MLB just got a new $1 billion deal with Nike started in 2020
New TV deals with Fox, Turner, and ESPN start in 2022
New streaming deals with DAZN and apple TV and/ or Peacock/ NBC are imminent
Gambling deals with Draft kings another new source of revenue
Those bass turds are filthy rich and they don’t want to spend the money to remain competitive and the same owners oppose letting other teams spend on their teams while they refuse to spend.
It’s pure greed, at the expense of the game
FSF
Most of them inherited daddy’s car but can’t afford any gas.
willpatten
That’s only true if the game is nurtured and preserved. If labor strife destroys the fan base the value of each franchise will plummet.
BuddyBoy
Or too cheap to own one. There’s legitimately rebuilding and the there’s putting limited effort on the field /payroll while pocketing revenue sharing $
YankeesBleacherCreature
@Tom The reality is there are franchises which are content with floating and aren’t trying to win. They draw enough fans and have enough eyeballs for decent TV/distribution contracts and make a sizeable profit. Meanwhile, their assets continue to appreciate as baseball revenues continue to rise. Some owners are business people and fans. Some are just business people with a trophy.
Yankee Clipper
TV/playoff revenue and revenue shares are the real problem. They allow for teams to sit back and get rich while doing nothing. Absolutely nothing. It’s an embarrassment to the sport, honestly. It should be illegal for teams like Pittsburg to have any profit off of a revenue share, let alone only 32% of revenue share be used to fund their entire payroll. That’s the true problem. They’re the Jacoby Ellsbury’s of ownership. They need to figure something else out.
WooMai55
Yep. There’s no argument with the super rich paying more Tax, so long as that money is divided into Revenue Sharing and that money is forced to be spent on players.
The problem has been that owners showed the real reason behind their CBT position when they wanted to penalise overspending with taking 1st/3rd draft picks…..that’s vengeance to stop teams from spend.
HankHill
…and what better way to say “I love you” than with the gift of a spatula!
Al Hirschen
Hope the union shoves it up the owners ass. This is all on the owners
Timothy Frith
Cut the crap. The union will accept the same offer.
BuddyBoy
Stop lapping at the trough of the players. It’s both sides fault and it’s 100% about money, not competitiveness or the fans or any other garbage they say
iBleeedBlue
RIP MLB
Timothy Frith
MLB will not cease operations, you dummy.
GriffeyJrFan
Pittsburgh votes no and spends less on salaries than their revenue sharing dollars. Disgusting
RobM
That is a significant issue. The players are convinced that Nutting/Pirates and a few other teams are pocketing the revenue sharing. That’s why the MLBPA wanted to decrease it. They know that more revenue sharing simply means more money to the smaller team owners who won’t reinvest in the team.
WooMai55
Yes (on the pocketing Revenue Sharing), but the players can also see that teams will spend to the fringes of the CBT threshold and will then stop as if they cannot ever overspend (and pay tax).
Look at Reinsdorf, his budget always seems to be just short of the threshold … it’s a ready made excuse for not spending (whilst still pocketing fans money).
48-team MLB
The Pirates have cool uniforms but it’s about time they move to Nashville/Louisville/Indianapolis.
CleaverGreene
Yes, three future no votes on the next CBA,
Yankee Clipper
Not just less, they only spent 32%!!! That’s insane. They get that money for competitive balance, while whining about not raising CBT for competitive balance, and then get money but don’t use 68%?! That’s should be investigated.
Dr Hook
It’s amazing to me that in 2022 we still have all this discussion about the economics of MLB and know every cent the players receive but only have a vague notion what the owners pocket. And we don’t even talk about Why? that. A real journalist would add that context to his or her reporting. Still waiting.
Vizionaire
owners are not letting them out. even the braves’ books seem solidly cooked.
YankeesBleacherCreature
That would entail owners opening their books which isn’t required. Good journalists without sources aren’t going pull numbers out of their own butt for a story.
The Saber-toothed Superfife
That’s right! A GOOD journalist would have the common sense to BRIBE someone!
Good jounalism is dead! Thank the hippies…..
CleaverGreene
Thank the internet.
WooMai55
Yep, it’s the murky world of local TV revenue contracts.
RobM
As I wrote in the other thread, this is why the MLBPA is ultimately going to win this one. Four owners vs. 26. They’re holding strong now, but the big-market teams will push for a compromise eventually because they’ll lose the most, and then eventually mid-market teams will begin to push too. The MLBPA association knows this, it’s a critical issue for them, they’ve funded themselves for this, and the players are more united on this.
If ownership is smart, they know they’re going to lose this eventually, so start compromising now and figure out the acceptable numbers. The idea that these small-market teams want to shut the game down simply to prevent the Dodgers, Steve Cohen, etc. from spending an extra $10M a year is crazy.
Vizionaire
the lower the cbt the more for piranhas.
RobM
Reversed it. 26-4, not 4-26. Point though remains. Eventually the big markets will push harder and enough mid-market teams will break away.
FSF
Yes, but most of those 26 owners aren’t really very liquid. And going an entire year without any revenue while funding close to $100 million each for fixed costs is going to hurt a heck of a lot more (and all of their families) than the young player (most who are single) who will get $15K per month to live on. So what if they have to wait another year to get a Porsche, they’ll be much more fine than everyone likes to think.
The Saber-toothed Superfife
Idiots. The owners will write any losses off on their taxes…
Just like any other taxpayer.
FSF
IDIOT! Most owners don’t have anywhere near enough other income to “write off” against. Sure it may work for Cohen and a couple of others. Let me guess, you’re some glorified accounting clerk.
Yankee Clipper
My question is twofold: If small markets don’t even make enough money to make a profit when the baseball team is playing with TV/playoff shares & revenue sharing, how will they survive a season without baseball? And, how can they be taken remotely seriously when their rosters are paid for multiple times over by revenue sharing alone?
RobM
MLB teams all make more money than they want us to know!
Let’s put it this way. Stu Sternberg complains about how much money he’s losing owning the Rays, while also saying he has no intention of selling. His team makes money and the value of baseball franchises continue to skyrocket. Owning.a baseball team is very, very profitable. Keep that in mind when owners are resisting a simply increase of the luxury tax by 10 or 15 million.
The two sides will come to an agreement soon!
Yankee Clipper
More importantly, who are the three guys the Yankees pick up post-lockout, RobM? Who ya got ‘em getting?
RobM
Ok, I think I’ve answered your question three times already in different threads, but I’m not spamming. At least I’ve found your original question. Maybe the lockout is driving me crazy.
Three guys? Based on their needs. We know they need a first baseman, a pitcher and a SS. The low-hanging fruit guess is they get first base and a pitcher from the A’s.
1) Olson (takes over for Voit/Rizzo)
2) Montas — The A’s have three pitchers they can deal in Manea, Bassit and Montas. The former two only have one season before free agency, and Cashman likes to get at least two years in his deals for pitchers (think Taillon), so that’s why I’m going with Montas.
3) Ahmed — SS from the D’backs. Excellent fielder, some pop, good rebound candidate. Arizona probably wants to move him. He can hold down SS until Peraza or Volpe shows up.
4) Pillar — I know you asked for three, but Pillar will make for a good partner with Hicks. He also brings a little edge, which the Yankees can use.
Those are my 3 (I mean 4) guesses. Will any of them be right?
Yankee Clipper
Man, you went a different direction but I like it! I think if they raise the CBT, Cash will go after Freeman, based on nothing but pure gut instinct and hair gel. I forgot about Ahmed, that’s a good call. I wasn’t entirely sure who they go after for pitcher but Rodon (if he’s not too expensive) is injured and Cash loves nursing pitchers back to health in-season.
IF Cash will actually let his death grip on some prospects go & we can work a deal with OAK, I agree with you – Olson/SP. I just don’t know what OAK will want for Montas, and Manea has that CC body style (big, durable lefty) so I could see a grab for him. I really like Bassitt. Dudes resilient, man, and another bulldog. I’d be happy with any of those combinations and CashHal would earn back some of the respect they lost from me for failing the team in recent years. Pillar? Yeah, I could see him too – like a Gardy light.
WooMai55
Spot on. As a fan of a high spending team i’ll admit I have the opinion that teams should be able to spend, but I also agree that financial Tax penalties should be high.
The two issues for me are:
1) The recipients of the Revenue Sharing should be forced to spend on players, reinvest the money into the game.
2) The initial proposed draft penalties show the real driver on restricting CBT levels…..to incorporate a ‘hard’ CAP.
The second tier teams should be weary that any draft penalties would actually force the (Guggenheim/Cohen/Steinbrenner triumvirate) from acknowledging that they wouldnt be able to sustain the team via the farm and developing prospects and as such may as well blow payroll into the $400m region.
Yankee Clipper
See that’s the issue that I have with this system. Small markets want big markets capped, yet still want draft pick comps and all the nice little benefits their teams get for tanking & sending off their FAs. They don’t understand that big markets cannot develop farm systems like that. Or actually, they do – what they really want , in the end, is baseball to legislate their crap team into the WS.
Star8
Why there is no cap/floor in this league is beyond me. It would be a healthy move for this dying sport. Why is this the only major sport without a cap? And the talk about their being so many different World Series winners over the past blah, blah, blah years is nonsense. The playoffs are a crap shoot and the higher payroll teams have a much stronger chance of being able to roll the dice. How is it even remotely competitive when the Dodgers payroll is 8 times larger than the Guardians?! The LA, NY, Chicago tv deals are not the same as Oak, Pittsburgh, KC. Why? The market sizes are vastly different than one another! This sport has a problem. I’m not on the owners side or the players side. I just want to see something that resembles fairness.
48-team MLB
The players should have to complete an obstacle course to see who can get to the money first. The top three finishers get to split up the bonus. The rest of the players play for league minimum until the next season when they do the obstacle course again.
seamaholic 2
The sport is far from dying. Its most profitable year in history was 2019. In fact, that’s the kernel of the argument: The players want more of that windfall, but the windfall was not evenly distributed and the teams that didn’t participate very much in it are driving the train right now.
The_Voice_Of_REASON
“Baseball” is dying. Oldest average fans of any sport (by a significant margin) and culturally irrelevant. The average person doesn’t even know who Mike Trout is, FFS. On the way out more and more with each passing year and little leagues are going defunct/combining because of lack of interest and baseball fields are being changed to soccer fields and multipurpose fields. And MLB definitely sees it- that’s why such an emphasis on pace of play, tweaking the game, etc. There’s no other reason for that. You’re not seeing the bigger picture at all.
Yankee Clipper
Sooooo, you’re saying golf has younger fans than baseball? I dunno, I’m gonna go ahead and call that one right now because the one time I did turn on golf (accidentally) the crowd looked like a Florida retirement home gathering.
humphrey x boegarts
there is technically a floor, it’s just really, really low. If you have an entire team all making the MLB minimum, that’s the floor. Increasing the minimum wage raises the floor
WooMai55
It’s chicken and egg, if you build it they will come. Fans watch and attend successful teams. The model of ‘tanking’, not spending and building through high draft picks (obtained by being woeful) is a financial and tactical model….. however they are not bringing anything to the baseball table and therefore shouldnt be subsidized via Revenue Sharing.
Barkerboy
Revenue sharing and a hard cap or bust!
BirdieMan
Keep arguing boys. Might as well cancel the whole season, and let both sides go hungry.
BuddyBoy
Players – We don’t want a revenue share system
Players – We deserve more because revenues are up
Players – Everything we want us to improve competition
Players – We want a higher CBT so teams can spend more (large markets)
Let’s be honest, neither side cares about anything but money. They don’t care about the fans. Which is why I find it funny people support either side at this pint
phantomofdb
Yeah, it’s really shocking that anyone believes the players want anything other than money from the biggest market teams. They couldn’t care less about competitive balance, as long as the rich teams are allowed to open up their wallets at will. Not wanting revenue sharing is all anybody should need to see that they just want the Yankees/Dodgers to be able to spend. They seem to forget those couple of teams only have so many roster spots.
FSF
Both sides want as much money as they can get. Let’s not regurgitate the obvious yet unsaid reality. But regarding revenue sharing, the owners won’t share the books.
Do you want to own a business with me where we’re 50/50 partners and I cut you a check at the end of the year and just say, “Here’s your share.” You wouldn’t…like…ask to see the math on that?
JoeBrady
Sure, if they operated on a percentage of the revenue. If they operate on a salary basis, of course not. If you want to have some fun, ask your boss (of a private company) to open his books to you.
FSF
Agreed, my understanding is that the owners have suggested a revenue sharing model without wanting to share the books. This is how crazy selfish insane they are.
BuddyBoy
The players don’t want a revenue sharing based model, they’ve already said that. What they want is the best of both worlds.
flamingbagofpoop
What is this understanding based on?
FSF
@BuddyBoy
You’re so naive. Everything is on the table theoretically. It’s just a question of the numbers. So you’re telling me the players have no interest in a model where they can see the books and are allocated 90% of MLB revenue. Take a hike!
Yankee Clipper
Phantom: I’ve yet to receive an answer to this question since the contract negotiations started, but I sure know who was very openly opining prior to the lockout whether it could: Can money buy championships for a baseball team?
BaseballClassic1985
If the players would agree to non-guaranteed contracts, this would be done quickly. The owners are sick of paying tens of millions of dollars to unproductive/oft-injured players after they’ve signed long-term deals. I don’t blame them. Allow owners to cut these types of players at a fraction of the cost and I’m sure they’d be more amenable to the players’ other requests
seamaholic 2
And have the grind-em-up-and-spit-em-out NFL system? Yuck.
YankeesBleacherCreature
That’s what insurance is for. Movie studios insure their project actors. Musicians insure their own voice and body parts. Etc.
BaseballClassic1985
Insurance doesn’t help clubs with avoiding the CBT and related penalties
flamingbagofpoop
It also costs them more money to take out the policies, on top of the K cost and in many instances, the circumstances to get the plans to pay out aren’t met with your run of the mill injuries.
FSF
And the country is SICK of funding BILLIONS of dollars to fund new ballparks for the owners. Every economic study seems to believe it’s pretty much a total waste of money.
flamingbagofpoop
Then stop voting for politicians that are in favor of it and hold any that are already elected accountable for their choices.
Politicians, like too many people on here, have no problem spending other people’s money.
FSF
That is obviously not the point. Why bring politics into this. The point is the incessant whinings of billionaires who get billions for free.
flamingbagofpoop
Are you really that ignorant? Who do you think proposes and approves the tax payer subsidies and funding for these things?
FSF
We all get that the stupid politicos do so. But what you’re talking about is an immeasurable long term issue. YOU are obviously THAT IGNORNANT!
Yankee Clipper
Sorry FB, but I cannot see the connection between politicians using taxpayer monies to assist billionaires in purchasing their stadiums (usually to the tune of over 50%) and an employer/employee negotiation wherein the employees are entertainers, attract all the money-spenders (clients/customers), and collectively bargain.
Halo11Fan
Stadiums.
I went to KC last summer, just to see a ball game, spent a lot of money that had nothing to do with baseball Then I flew to Minnesota to see a ball game, spent a lot of money that had nothing to do with baseball.
It’s symbiotic relationship. Cities can decide for themselves how much they need to spend on Stadiums to keep a ball club.
I have no problem with it.
SuperSloth
I see quite a few people posting this suggestion. You want to make it like the other leagues? Fine. But also be willing to start the clock on the time under control as soon as the ink is dried on the first contract. 5 years of control would be all they had. I don’t think the owners would be interested in that at all, so this is a non starter. I don’t think the players would agree to it either, so it’s really a moot point to talk about non guaranteed contracts like the other leagues have.
Yankee Clipper
Baseball1985: From a purely analytical standpoint your recommendation seems logical, but look at the injuries in MLB. Look at how pitching & the use of pitchers has changed to preserve their health. Imagine if teams didn’t have to pay then if they were injured? They would never make it to FA. So, although theoretically it seems like a viable solution, it doesn’t make practical sense for a variety of reasons.
Chisox378
Alla Manny Machado. Have the players ever been this greedy?
The_Voice_Of_REASON
Put those 4 owners in the Hall of Fame.
Vizionaire
dive into a septic tank, troll!
seamaholic 2
That poster might literally be working for the owners (indirectly of course, but there are grassroots PR firms that are available to be hired to do that. I worked for one once.)
Vizionaire
i wish mlbpa should hire one. i could get that job for nothing.
The_Voice_Of_REASON
Put them in the Hall of Fame. Immediately! No 5 or 6 year waiting period. Immediate induction- name it the ‘Wing of Courage’. They were courageous enough to vote against their own peers because they knew it was in the best interest of the game!
bigdaddyk
The Yankees owner is on record saying he should be able to win a championship with a roster of 2 million I bet he was one of them.
Vizionaire
that proves big f/a singings are for getting more from fans.
topchuckie
$200M, but…
“In trying to strike a balance of pleasing those owners and others — like the Yankees’ Hal Steinbrenner and the Mets’ Steve Cohen — who want a less punitive CBT and a full season, Halem was forced to present a proposal that was dead on arrival when it landed on the players’ table Tuesday.”
Yankee Clipper
Hal was also never accused of being the smartest one in the room. After all, he was George’s, what, fourth choice, for owner?
brucenewton
Hal must have forgotten who his GM is. Other teams can and do, but the NYY couldn’t.
beyou02215
If the owners don’t want to raise the tax thresholds, then increase the bonus pool amount. $2 million per team equals $60 million. It’s not rocket science.
nukeg
Owners come up on the luxury tax; players give them 14 teams in playoffs and call it a day. F&ckin A.
Yankee Clipper
As Halo11 astutely notes, that’ll truly even out any competitive imbalance the excessive spending gives a particular Yankees / LAD team too. Although, I loathe a 14-team playoff, even a twelve, but I could stomach a twelve, mostly.
48-team MLB
Manfred and Clark should race The Freeze at the same time. The one who finishes second gets his side’s terms for the CBA. Obviously The Freeze will finish first.
LordD99
Neither will beat the Freeze.
Against each other? Clark looks like he’s put on weight while Manfred is trim, but Clark was a professional athlete and has a 6’8” stride. Clark wins.
48-team MLB
Obviously they won’t beat The Freeze. The Freeze is just there as a distraction for them. It will test their focus.
LordD99
I see the purposeful leaks from owners continues.
Yankee Clipper
Yeah, it’s sad when they get older like that, but they do have medication for those embarrassing problems now.
ccsilvia
All owners (except maybe for new money Steve Cohen) are in favor of a lower CBT, and even monetary/draft penalties for exceeding it.
Small market/cheap/revenue share collecting owners of course, but even large revenue teams in big markets can use it as a shield to control their budget (“we’ll drop 10 spots in the draft!” Forfeit 500k in international signing money!”) Those things of course make very little difference in the grand scheme of team building, but they help them sell their fanbase on not spending more than they intend to..
48-team MLB
There better be an offer tomorrow. I’m sure they won’t agree on it but they need to at least keep at it instead of wasting even more time.
dlw0906
Pittsburgh, Miami, Colorado, and Cleveland would be my guesses. The MLB is being held hostage by small market owners with little incentive to compete or win. They want a participation badge in the form of a 14 team playoff. Personally I don’t think there should be more than 8. I don’t want to see a mediocre team get hot in the postseaon and upset better teams. I want to see the best teams play each other in the postseason.
The way baseball is headed with Manfred and the current owners good luck recognizing the game in 5 years (if MLB as we’ve known it is still around then).
James1955
A mediocre team got hot at the end last year.
Trump2024
You know what Monday is kids? It’s “the league cancels another two series day”.
JoeBrady
“The union has pursued a rapid expansion of the threshold, pointing to team spending habits suggesting the CBT has served as a de facto salary cap for clubs.”
=================================
I always get a kick when MLB-R runs this tripe.
Of course it is a soft cap. It is designed as a soft cap. That’s exactly why it was added.
And MLB-R “suddenly” thinks it is a cap? No one is that stupid to not have known this for the past 20-30 years.
The_Voice_Of_REASON
MANY MLB teams operate at a loss, those who really understand economics know about that. Just mentioning that to counter all the misinformation out there about MLB teams all being great sources of “profit”.
stevecohenMVP
You have literal zero proof stated in your incoherent rambling.
FSF
Let’s be fair, he never does!
bhambrave
@VoR: Is that you, Putin?
Yankee Clipper
If many operate at a loss, how do they continue to….ya know, operate? Seems impossible to have perennial losses and keep a business going because in life businesses that do that tend to fail…..100% of the time. That sounds like a CEO/owner problem.
And, businesses that operate at perennial losses don’t gain value every single year. They lose value. They certainly don’t go from $400M in 2008 to $2.5B in 2021.
JoeBrady
Another article from MLB-B about the impasse.
And still not a word about the story that the players and owners had an agreement at 2:45 AM and Boras came in to blow it up.
The story is out there for anyone interested:
youtube.com/watch?v=lUSY-hLjzBM
Maybe it is only a rumor, but Mad Dog and Madden are big names. Either way, the story deserves to be aired and discussed.
all in the suit that you wear
Thanks Joe. This is the first I’ve heard this.
JoeBrady
No problem. And of course you haven’t heard of it. The sports media has gone radio silence. They are clearly siding with the players, and absolutely will not post anything negative about the players.
alanofla
How long until the successful teams tell these four teams and any others which want to cancel more games instead of finding common ground with MLBPA to take a hike? Kick these four owners out of MLB, make them sell or else move their franchises. Otherwise, contract the teams. MLB was better with fewer teams anyway.
gorav114
Another ruse by the owners to make the players think they are pushing the limits
Halo11Fan
Probably. I would like the players to openly complain about it. Then when they complain about it everyone would realize they are full of manure when they talk about competitive balance.
mike156
Seems that your definition of competitive balance would require anyone who provides a service or who has a talent or expertise to agree to accept the lowest price anyone says they are willing to pay. Top TJ surgeon must charge Urgent Care doctor rates.
flamingbagofpoop
Yikes, what a lazy and weak attempt at a strawman…try harder.
Halo11Fan
Flaming… I’d reply, but I’m not capable of topping your reply. Spot on.
mike156
No need to. The owners ” MLB proposed counting the cost of player meals against the luxury tax.” top anything I could imagine.
mike156
I”m sorry, but this has leaked negotiation tactic written all over it. The CBT threshold is already acting as a cap, and whether a few teams break over it has absolutely no impact on the teams that don’t. The “my client is dug in” routine is an old one.
Halo11Fan
Something else that is worth thinking about, the owners have to submit a proposal that would pass the owner vote. That takes effort. So if they did put something in that satisfied the majority of owners, they are probably were not trying to sneak it in. They were trying to get the owners to sign on to.
More evidence that Stripling is an idiot and doesn’t belong in that room.
I’m not saying it was a good offer, but Stripling’s imbecilic rhetoric didn’t help.
michael pegarsch
One of had to be ricketts
Yankee Clipper
That disease is turrible (as Charles Barkley would say).
Snuffy
There is more interest in the NFL combines than MLB. Wake up, baseball! You are killing the sport!
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Dudes standing around in shorts waiting to do a 40 yard dash is still far more action than a modern baseball game.
bhambrave
Baseball’s oligarchs need to stop trying to screw the players.
bhambrave
The_Voice_of_Reason is why the mute button was invented.
Yankee Clipper
I think I’m able to confidently discern about 18 or so different accounts (personalities, perhaps?).
LordD99
If only the mute option worked on the app.
LordD99
Bob Castellini of the Reds, Chris Ilitch of the Tigers, Ken Kendrick of the Diamondbacks and Arte Moreno of the Angels were the four owners/teams to vote no. Two of the four don’t surprise me.
Yankee Clipper
Is that confirmed or are you speculating? Sounds like you know for sure though?
LordD99
Confirmed by the Athletic. Article just ran five minutes ago.
Yankee Clipper
Wow, not who I thought! Although two of those four don’t surprise me either. I thought Moreno could be one initially because he [only] made about $61M profit after all expenses were paid in 2021 according to Statistica. With his approximate losses of $33M during Covid that puts him at +$28M, although e apparently didn’t have trouble discussing his losses during Covid……hmmmmm.
LordD99
Not surprised by the Reds or Diamondbacks. Moreno is an oddball. Has a huge TV contract. More surprised by the names absent. A lot of these leaks are for posturing. At least that’s my guess. Trying to make the MLBPA believe it will be difficult to get approval for a higher increase.
Yankee Clipper
Man, I don’t know. I’m retrospect, yeah, what you say makes a ton of sense bro.
So, as an aside, say the CBT gets raised (I think it will)….which three players do you think the Yankees acquire, L99?
LordD99
I want to believe there’s a chance the Yankees will go spend on a SS, so:
Story (free agent)
Olson (trade)
Gardner (does he count?!)
LordD99
I haven’t thought this through too clearly as the lockout is in my head. What do you think? I mean, they should add a starter. I don’t see Rodon so that means a trade.
Yankee Clipper
Ya know, my smart side says Rizzo, Simmons, & Chafin.
But, because my hopes are high they’re going to agree this week and CBT will be raised, so:
Freeman-
Iglesias-
Rodon –
I know, I know, that’s like waaaaay out of proportion for Yankee land, signing two upper-tier FAs with three total, but like I said, man, I’m going for it.
LordD99
I don’t want to see Simmons. I really don’t think he has anything left. I’d love for him to take a shot at Rodon, but I think his injury history will scare the Yankees off. I just can’t believe the Braves Will Freeman walk, but I want the Yankees I. There if he does.
Dorothy_Mantooth
@Yankee Clipper – I believe those figures shown were operating profits and not net income. Operating profit does not include interest expense, taxes or other one-off expenditures. Most MLB teams have a large amount of debt service so interest expense can be a very sizable cost for the average team. It helps bring down their taxes, but at the end of the day, it’s not overly profitable to own a MLB Team when you look at the P&L’s bottom line. If a team spends $200M on payroll alone (about $500M in total operating expenses) but only brings in $25M in operating income, I don’t consider that an overly successful business; neither would investors.
Using your Moreno example above: If Moreno had added one more $30M player to his roster, the Angels would have lost $44M in 2020 (additional $30M salary pro-rated for 37% of games played) and they would have only made $31M in operating income in 2021, so they would have lost $11M in operating profits over the last two years. That’s a pretty volatile business where one top asset (in this case a player) can change the financial results of your business so much. I read somewhere that the new proposal from the union could end up costing teams an additional $10M-$15M per year and that does not include any additional CBT spending, so add that on to the adjusted Angels costs above and things look even uglier.
Given all of the risks owners take on, I feel like they should have the opportunity to make $80M-$100M in a good season but there is no way for this to happen for 90%+ of the teams. The increasing cost of MLB labor (player salaries), draft pick compensation, minor league operations and general operating costs make it hard enough to get a reasonable return on investment. Now that the union wants so much more money thrown their way, it’s as if they’d rather see the owners break even or lose money each year. I wish the owners would open their books; players would be surprised how volatile MLB financials truly are. I’m not trying to claim franchises are broke, but being an owner of a team is not a license to print money like some of the players and agents believe it to be. I have first hand knowledge of this (good friend working in the front office for a very successful franchise), but there are very tight NDAs in place to avoid leaking confidential information. I didn’t get exact figures but I was very surprised to learn how tight the margins in MLB truly are.
RobM
Moreno has huge Trout and Rendon contracts on the books already, and he’s staring at another huge deal for Ohtani. No way he really wants to cost himself additional money with a low luxury tax.
Yankee Clipper
Dorothy: I do see your point and I agree with you, except in one area. This is also where I think Hammer is flawed – these “profits” are after “all expenses” are paid. Now, Hammer suggests they have “other debts” for other ventures and whatever. But I can easily say, they have other businesses, or other areas of their business brining in other profits too, so there’s two sides to that coin. One cannot be selective and only choose to assign the negative value without incorporating the positive.
Now, to your original point about volatility. Yes, it certainly appears to be. 2018 he had $68M profits, whereas 2011, there was $-11M profits. I also believe much of that money is shifted reworked, and hidden. Nonetheless, if that is true, and the Angels business is that volatile, why hand out humongous contracts to Trout & Rendon? Why would he want his own tax penalties to go up higher? Less profit? That’s seems incredibly stupid for a billionaire. For clarity though, on the Angels, I agree, they don’t appear to have a lot of room – at all, so don’t spend. I have no issue where facts bare this out, but this team is the exception, not the rule. The Pirates have more operating expenses than the Angels- that should speak volumes.
But, another issue I have is all these same commenter rave about the Rays and how well/smart their club is run. Furthermore, they constantly discuss how money cannot buy championships and use the Yankees / LAD, and most recently, the Padres as their shining examples of this. So why so much hate towards the CBT limit being raised – especially using the excuse it will create the “competitive imbalance?” It’s a complete contradiction and they know it which is why so many refuse to answer my question when I ask. They know how hypocritical they are being. It’s simply a stance because they don’t like the fact the Yankees have money to spend and their team (Reds/Guardians/Rays) doesn’t or won’t. It’s a stupid position when your baseball philosophy is exactly the opposite.
Either way, your points are valid, Dorothy, and I respect them. You obviously put much thought into your posts, and love the game like we all do too, man. I enjoy the back and forth discussion.
Yankee Clipper
L99: Yeah man, well I know Cash loves Freeman and his attitude is spot-on Yankee leadership 101. As far as Rodon, I’d normally agree, but that is exactly who Cash has been going after – Kluber, Tallion, Schmidt, Verlander, & Paxton. So, it seems like it’s right in his wheelhouse. I think it really will depend on if Cash “feels” like he’s getting a deal. I hope so too though, because that dude is a bulldog and would be a good Yankee, imo.
And Simmons? Yeah, he belongs in old timers’ softball. I want a real stopgap, man. But who knows?
Stevil
That couod be used as leverage (an excuse).
Moreno was apparently one of the four.
Halo11Fan
It’s really not. The Red, Diamondbacks, Tigers and Angels spent like crazy trying to win and probably lost money and didn’t win.
Moreno is the odd ball because he didn’t break down his team.
Moreno says he’s loses money every year. Not a lot, but a little.
Halo11Fan
RobM. I try to put myself in other people’s shoes to figure out motivation. Ohtani is going to stay on the West Coast. He doesn’t want to lose him. He’s gotta match the Dodgers, with limited penalties, he’s got no chance.
8791Slegna
Agree that they should make a profit, but why that much? If they can afford a ball club, they already have money. Most of that kind of money should go back into the team or savings for a new ballpark. The team isn’t an ATM (ala Frank and Jamie McCourt). They make their money when they sell the team.
Bill nd
Cancel the entire season, who cares billionaire owners vs millionaire players, neither side cares about the fans other than a source of making them richer. I can watch independent ball where the players are still hungry for sucess.
FSF
The players seem about as “hungry for success” as I have ever seen.
deano 2
At this point who cares? Billions of dollars and they really can’t find middle ground? Ridiculous on both sides.
RobM
Agreed, although only one side is attempting to find common ground. The owners have been trying to build a salary cap with MLBPA agreement by restricting the growth of the luxury tax to below inflation and revenue growth for the past couple decades.
I still believe the two sides are close enough that they can hammer out a deal quickly.
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
Been a baseball fan for going on 70 years now. Tired of all the bellyaching from both sides.
If baseball is beginning to turn off long time fans like me, I can only imagine how the casual fan feels. That is, if they feel anything at all.
The lockout aside, baseball has become almost unwatchable nowadays. On any given night you might see 20 or more of the 54 outs (Assuming the home team batted in the ninth inning.) come via the strikeout.
And I’m supposed to pay $50.00 to watch batters walk up to the plate and then walk back to the dugout without putting a ball in play? Nah, I don’t think so.
Dorothy_Mantooth
Here’s an easy fix to the CBT issue. Eliminate benefit costs and any other non-direct salary costs from counting towards the CBT. I believe the benefit costs per team are around $15M-$16M. Eliminate those costs and leave it the target at $220M. The Union would easily accept this offer as it would be the same thing as the owners pushing the existing CBT model to $235M-$236M. It would also make the CBT calculation much easier and straightforward to calculate. There’d be no more year end surprises of teams barely exceeding the CBT due to non-salary expenses like benefits being more expensive than the front office planned for. Fans & players could even calculate the CBT themselves if it was only based on salaries. Not sure if the owners would go for this but it would certainly simplify the process.
FSF
That seems like a very good suggestion. And as a fan, it would be MUCH easier to stay on top of their favorites team’s CBT situation instead of always guesstimating.
FSF
Just to be clear, while I like your suggestion, the owners would obviously see that this is a backdoor to a MUCH higher CBT and would NEVER go for it as it would take it well above the $230M that the players are asking for.
Patrick OKennedy
Great idea, but the Athletic is reporting that the owners “final best offer” included a provision to include the cost of meals and any bonuses players received for home run derby or other special events in the CBT salary calculations. Anything to further restrict spending. And this is what they presented to the players while leaking word to the media that they were close to an agreement and the players changed their tone.
There are a group of owners that are hell bent on restricting spending at the top end of the scale, and all players just as determined to avoid the de facto salary cap.
Therein lies the stalemate.
moteus
Patty O: well said, my friend.
kellyoubreisgod
I don’t understand how there’s more competitive balance in the MLBPA’s picture? Raising the CBT that high will just give the big market teams even more spending power. All the small market teams can do to even stay on par with them is tank for prospects which is something they’re trying to nerf as well. The minimum salary raise and bonus pool are good but their CBT demands are absolutely ridiculous. At this rate Juan Soto will surpass Patrick Mahomes record contract and in a decade or two someone will get a 15 year contract worth a billion while much of us fans struggle to pay rent!!!
Patrick OKennedy
No they’re not.
The owners proposal is absurd.
With a de facto salary cap in 2021, and inflation at 7%, the CBT should go up to $225 million just to remain the same in real dollars.
The owners proposed $220M, with no increase for two more years. An even harder de facto salary cap. A complete non starter and they know it.
And just to add insult, they proposed including meal costs in the payroll calculations. Take it or we’re canceling opening day.
Yankee Clipper
So, Kelly, I assume you’re one who believes that money does in fact buy championships in MLB and the Rays are not smarter because they’re doing it wrong?
Chisox378
Please keep the shift. Isnt it MlB rules that defensive players can play where thay want?
LordD99
Rules are rules until new rules are created.
Patrick OKennedy
There was one proposal floated that would require the infielders to be on the dirt if they used a shift, so they couldn’t have an infielder in shallow right field., for example.
Yankee Clipper
If they change anything k wouldn’t mind them changing that. I loathe all other changes, but at least limited the shift would create hitting opportunities with good line drives to the pull sides. There’s a benefit from it.
Crazies in Camden
The 4 who voted no are obvious. It’s the same 4 that are facing a lawsuit for their lack of spending ♂️ maybe those 4 should sell their teams to others who can properly afford them.
Yankee Clipper
It always amazes me that an entire league would structure their economy and rules around guys who can’t run a business properly even after they’re granted exclusive entry into a monopoly. Baffling. Whatever.
Polish Hammer
Sure, very obvious and nice to see the lynch mob out in full force, except it’s been reported to be the Reds, Tigers, Angels and Diamondbacks…
theburgh88
Fail in Camden
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
Been a baseball fan for going on 70 years now. Tired of all the bellyaching from both sides.
If baseball is beginning to turn off long time fans like me, I can only imagine how the casual fan feels. That is, if they feel anything at all.
The lockout aside, baseball has become almost unwatchable nowadays. On any given night you might see 20 or more of the 54 outs (Assuming the home team batted in the ninth inning.) come via the strikeout.
And I’m supposed to pay $50.00 to watch batters walk up to the plate and then walk back to the dugout without putting a ball in play? Nah, I don’t think so.
Yankee Clipper
Ahhhh, the age of analytics!
Chris the Great
Looks like the Braves will be reigning World Series Champions for 2 years….
66TheNumberOfTheBest
“Bob Castellini of the Reds, Chris Ilitch of the Tigers, Ken Kendrick of the Diamondbacks and Arte Moreno of the Angels were the four owners/teams to vote no.”
CHRIS Illitch.
I don’t know how the others made their money, but this snot nose just waited around until his dad died and the boot lickers will praise his “business savvy”.
The problem with MLB is way too many of the owners inherited their money, they did not make it. They are clueless tools posing as moguls.
They are two main forms of businessmen, builders and bleeders.
MLB only knows how to bleed.
For Love of the Game
ForwhomJBT, I’ve lived my whole life in southeastern Michigan and no one knew who Chris Illitch was until his dad died. Mike and Marian Illitch worked their butts off building Little Caesars. The first one is in my wife’s town. He was a billionaire and maybe an SOB at times, but you knew he built his empire with his own sweat. Chris? Lucky sperm club. Same thing with Fisher of the A’s (parents founded The Gap) and Hal Steinbrenner. But don’t paint all owners with the same brush.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Mike Illitch was a great owner. He took care of everyone, spent to win and (WATCH THIS) still made plenty of money.
I watched his Wings dominate the NHL for 20 years.
For Love of the Game
The Tigers overspent and were one of the most UNprofitable MLB teams most years under Illitch’s tenure. But, yes, he took care of everyone, and everyone loved him.
afl forever
Over a 1000 bucks for a World Series ticket? Add to this the many reasons I walked away from the current mlb long ago.
Tomahawk Takeover
I didn’t pay that much to go. Maybe you were looking in the wrong place.
Scott Kliesen
I wonder how long it takes Scherzer and Cole to take off the puppet strings Boras attaches to them each night?
acmeants
So when are these bozos meeting again, Time’s a wasting!
willpatten
A one-on-one meeting was held yesterday.
slider32
This is fight between the owners on the CBT, Manfred has failed as the commis if he can’t bring them together on this issue!
Tomahawk Takeover
How about this: soft salary floor at 100 mil. Any team that doesn’t meet it doesn’t get revenue sharing and loses draft picks. Both the owners and players benefit. Players get more money, owners have potential to spend less money simultaneously, teams are more competitive. Win-win-win
Salvi
So a team too poor to pay 100M gets further punished by draft pick losses. If your objective is to eliminate teams from the League, I’m all for it. I think there are too many teams anyway. If you think this strategy will close equity gap, you’re completely wrong.
tigerdoc616
Assuming this is true, then it does not bode well for settling the CBA anytime soon.
hyraxwithaflamethrower
Especially considering it takes only 8 owners to scuttle a deal. Why is it that the players union needs a simple majority, but the owners need a 3/4 majority?
kylegocougs
It’s the same reason the senate has the filibuster: to entrench power in the hands of the few.
For Love of the Game
Apples and oranges, Kyle. Public policy is different than private business.
The Senate has the filibuster as a feature of a republican form of government. Allowing a mere majority to do whatever they want leads to volatility as people change their minds all the time. Slowing down the pace of change leads to more sustainable change.
yanks2323
Mr. Roper doesn’t care about the game!
30 Parks
Player meals? This just keeps getting more embarrassing.
dave frost nhlpa
Artie is easily one of the worst humans I’ve ever dealt with.
Halo11Fan
Arte doesn’t bring in cheaters, pays his players, and has relatively low ticket privies, yeah, he’s a real evil guy.
stevecohenMVP
Wow everyone was wrong on who to blame for the votes hahahahahahaha that’s frigging hilarious.
Halo11Fan
Why is is hilarious? Now we know who is against it, four teams that have shown they will spend but have fallen short and have made moves suggesting they are losing money.
The only one of those that kept spending was Moreno.
stevecohenMVP
It’s hilarious because everyone thought it was Colorado, Miami, Pittsburgh… did you not catch that?
Halo11Fan
I certainly didn’t. I’m not sure how confident anyone was. I’m not going to laugh at people’s guesses.
However, I will laugh at the people who don’t makes guesses and laugh at people’s guesses.
Stevil
Yeah, and that’s not a good thing. It means that there are even more extremely stingy owners than we realized.
Android Dawesome
Reading some of these comments is like watching the Three Stooges fight.
Halo11Fan
One of the three stooges would say make a comment like that and never explain why?
These comments vary and are all over the map. My guess is you can’t logically justify your opinion and that’s why you don’t post it. Prove me wrong.
Android Dawesome
Well if you have to explain a joke it isnt as funny. The reason its like the Three Stooges fighting is because some of the back and forths are over the top, overly aggressive, going in circles and not productive. I think we add that some people are over sensitive to the point they lash out.
Halo11Fan
I missed it. It actually was funny and went right over my head.
My bad.
larryb
Bob is trash
mike156
If you want to know why billionaires are billionaires, most are very sharp businessmen who also have a very sharp eye for the nickels and dimes in the seat cushions. ” MLB proposed counting the cost of player meals against the luxury tax.” has to be one of those unintentionally funny “asks” I’ve seen. Does the Commissioner’s office send “meal monitors” to each team to see if anyone ordered the surf and turf rather than just a salad? Manfred to Steinbrenner “Hal, you were under until Gardy went Yardy on a prime rib.”
For Love of the Game
Does anybody else think this information was planted? Owners haven’t leaked much until now. It would be a good negotiating tactic to make your opponents think they are that close to scuttling all hope of a deal. Then MLB sweetens its offer a touch and players might be tricked into thinking that’s about all they’re going to get. Or am I just a tin-hat conspiracy theorist?
Angels & NL West
How much is the players daily meal allowance while on the road?
tanner829 2
F U players! Welcome to the USA where companies own you and life isn’t fair. Get over it
lumber and lighting
Hey how about this,make every team spend 150 with a max of 250.26 man rosters,750 stacks min. 12 playoff teams,only the Dodgers retire #42,age barriers on arbitration & free agency,better health and benefits for retired union members.Then we got a deal
DarkSide830
the players get a higher CBT with real penalties or a less raised one without. that’s called a compromise.
lumber and lighting
Btw fans complaining about ballpark prices, should go to the cinema with a family of 5.12 bucks a head and don’t forget the extra large beverage and tub of popcorn for another 20 a person.Outfield seat 12 buck hotdog and beer 20 big ones.Choose your poison
Robertowannabe
Choosing the MLB poison….Much of what appears in cinemas these days is not worth the price of admission.
chalk73
Take the luxury tax and give it to the Players Union to use as the see fit. That kind be a net gain for both sides. The only ones losing are the cheap teams.
Halo11Fan
Small market teams would never agree to that.
meckert
Arte Moreno? That’s priceless, we needed a laugh.
Halo11Fan
Why? Because Arte is the only one of the four that didn’t break down his team after he overspent?
You’d rather have him trade away his talent. How is that good for the players or for baseball?
Arte Moreno is the kind of owner that players should love. He’s willing to lose money every year, never tanks and never sells his players just to dump their salaries on someone else.
If every owner was like Moreno, there would be no reasons for the players to complain.
seamaholic 2
Arte Moreno does not lose money on the Angels. Not even close. No owner loses money on their team, but some are closer than others (the Angels are not one of them).
Halo11Fan
I’m glad you know. You fans know so much.
Autry lost money, he couldn’t afford to run the team and had to sell it.
Disney lost money, couldn’t explain the loses on its books and sold the team for a loss.
Arte says he loses a little every year, but you know better. You people are so smart. You know everything.
For Love of the Game
Halo, most people don’t know beans about business. They confuse losing money every year with a gain when the owner sells the team. No, it is a matter of a scarce good (30 MLB franchises) in a country with about 700 billionaires.
alanofla
As a Southern California baseball fan since 1971, here’s what I know:
Gene Autry was one of the richest entertainers America has ever known. He owned oil wells, TV and radio stations, and real estate. He invested the money he made from his singing and acting career very wisely. His second wife Jackie was formerly his banker and she wanted to plan his estate and build what she felt would be his biggest and best legacy, the Autry Museum of the American West in Griffith Park, Los Angeles. It is a magnificent collection and structure.
Autry had no children and considered all of the Angel players his sons. As he advanced into his 80s, his wife began selling his empire piece by piece, eventually leaving only the Angels, his great love.. When Autry reached the age of 88, he sold a percentage to Disney. When he got to be 90, Autry sold a controlling interest in the team to Disney, keeping an estimated 49 percent until the day he died about one year later. His widow had pre-arranged for Disney to buy the rest of the franchise.upon his death.
Autry was so devoted to the team that uniform #26 (as in the 26th man on the roster) is retired by the team in his honor. When the Angels finally won the World Series in 2002, I was hoping that someone would mention Autry. Thankfully, Tim Salmon did.. This is one major reason why Salmon will always be my favorite Angel of all time..
Disney owned the Angels and the Mighty Ducks (now Ducks) of the NHL.. Owning these teams was the idea of former Disney chairman Michael Eisner. When Eisner left Disney, the company sold the franchises as soon as possible because the Disney Board of Directors had never wanted to own sport teams in the first place, only Eisner had..
Arte Moreno sells over 3 million tickets each and every year, has a great TV contract, and sells plenty of Trout and Ohtani jerseys, among other merchandise. He is trying to get the stadium and property from the City of Anaheim for about $150 million when the land itself, without a stadium on it, was recently appraised for $500 million.
If Moreno is really losing money, which is highly suspect, maybe its because he gets in his own way, and steps in past his GMs to offer crazy contracts to certain players that no one else would. He just makes sure that they are all hitters, rather than pitchers. Good thing Ohtani can pitch as well as hit!
Signing CJ Wilson must have really traumatized Moreno, much more so than Josh Hamilton, Albert Pujols, Vernon Wells or Justin Upton ever did.
The Angels, once in Anaheim, have never lost money.. I’m not sure they even lost money when they shared Dodger Stadium from 1962-1965, but that might be possible. Moreno just wants to be saved from himself, and a possible $500 million ask from Ohtani’s agent when the time comes..
fred-3
Arte probably said to himself he’s tired of giving $150 million to flameouts
meckert
Stop me before I spend again!
Otis26
I love watching fools arguing about how a bunch of millionaires (including players) split OUR money. Without the owners, there is no baseball. Without the players, well, there’s a work-around for that. Either way, I find it interesting that so many of you think that owners are evil.
How about this? One year contracts with only incentives? No guarantees. Performance-based only. Just like teachers, the players would throw a tantrum.
Both sides are greedy people ready to take your money. It’s just a matter of who gets more of it. And personally, I don’t care.
seamaholic 2
“Without the owners there is no baseball”? What drugs are you on? There are any number of ownership groups that would snap up any MLB franchise up for sale. Teams are no-risk massive payout investments. The owners are perfectly replaceable, as long as there are people around who inherited billions and are looking for a fun place to put it. The players, on the other hand.
Robertowannabe
There is always risk involved. People who made or inherited billions want to keep the wealth. Yes, you can replace the owners but you will replace them with similar billionaires who will operate much the same way.
habs93
cBT shouldn’t be an issue…union should be asking for a floor
seamaholic 2
It’s time for both sides to concede on a major issue. I’d suggest the players allow a real salary cap, with a floor and an NBA-style Larry Bird rule, and in exchange the owners agree to a large increase in minimum salary and a big pool for very good pre-arb players. Done and done.
Polish Hammer
Been saying that for years, an actual true hard cap but a floor as well.
Prospectnvstr
seamaholic 2: That makes to much commonsense for the owners to agree to it. Come up with a decent floor ($75,000,000.00 – $100,000,000.00). I know that’s a ton of money to us regular folks but not when you’re talking about a MULTI BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY. That’s 1,000,000,000.00 for those who want to see what a billion dollars looks like.
Polish Hammer
A lot of clowns owe some apologies to the Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Tampa and Miami ownership groups for instantly blaming them.
Not a clever name
Interesting that the angels and tigers would vote against a CBT threshold increase but the marlins, A’s, and Pirates would not.
roiste
Probably because the Marlins, As, and Pirates would never even go remotely near the CBT anyways
Halo11Fan
The A’s and: Pirates have never spent. The Marlins spent and won and broke up their team.
The Tigers, Reds, Arizona and Angels all spent and lost, and have shown a desire to be good. The Tigers, Reds and DIamond Backs broke up their team.
They want to win and are afraid they want be able to if teams go wild.
Makes sense.
Patrick OKennedy
It would make sense if there was any chance that the players would actually agree to their proposal,
But they knew damn well that there wasn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that the players would agree to $220M, which ls less than a 5% increase in the first year CBT, with zero increase for two years after, and then add in the cost of meals to the payroll formula.
Not
A
Fakking
Chance
Shadow Ball
Take a poll of the players who would accept that offer to show both sides of the issue.
.
Wilmer the Thrillmer
Arte Moreno of all owners.
With the historically horrible contracts he has dished out and taken on since day one, him voting to keep the cap under 220mil is just an excuse to lose.
He has 2 of the greatest players in the history of the game who will probably never play in a World Series if they choose to stay with the Angels because of the absurd contracts he has given to Anthony Rendon (38mil per year for the next 5 years) and Juston Upton (28mil in 2022).
When the Angels signed Rendon they desperately needed pitching and there were plenty of excellent 3rd basemen available at a fraction of Rendon’s price.
And with Upton, just another of Moreno’s vastly, vastly overpaid outfielders of the last 10 years (Josh Harrison, Vernon Wells) .
Moreno must be feeling very happy he’s finally rid of Albert Pujols contract and that he’ll be free of Upton’s in 2023, but voting to cap his spending at less than 220 per year makes no since to me.
Halo11Fan
Kevin Johnson
It’s pretty simple. Regardless of how much money you think Moreno has, he doesn’t have the Dodger money.
Ohtani is going to sign for a West Coast Team. Moreno will be bidding against the Dodgers. He needs something to slow the Dodgers down.
Wilmer the Thrillmer
Good points. It is ironic though that Mookie Betts is the first signing over 100mil the Dodgers have ever made other than Kershaw and Kevin Brown’s 105mil contract all the way back in 1998.
FSF
That’s because McCourt was a con man with no money that Selig decided to make a billionaire (two scumbag peas in a pod), and since the new ownership, they picked up so many bloated contracts in trades.
Simple Simon
Funniest thing about the back-and-forth: Players don’t think that their free meals should be included in the teams’ costs. No, they aren’t being charged but how dare the teams include them as a cost. Average salary is a gazillion dollars and they don’t want their “free” meals included in what their teams spend on them.
The league of the Free Lunch and Ross Stripling (who has earned $6,790,000 in 5 seasons while averaging less than 1 WAR per year) contended that the league “tried to sneak some sh-t past us” ! He eats “Sh-t”?
CursedRangers
Arte Moreno resembles the old cartoon character, Dick Dastardly. Always think of that dude driving in his race with his dog when I see a picture of Arte
Franco27
If players don’t give in, this season may not exist. One thing I haven’t heard mentioned when it comes to owners revenue and costs, is the insane inflation everyone is dealing with. Utilities, concessions, mostly anything they have to purchase for operation purposes, has to be costing them significantly more than usual. This has to be playing into financial decisions, and maybe more of a willingness to at least push back the season.
Simple Simon
The Union doesn’t want a Cap or anything that resembles a Cap.
The $220MM the League offered isn’t too low — it’s too high.
Of the 30 teams last year, 8 of those making the playoffs spent over the median payroll, 2 spent below the median,
Should Baseball consist of the Haves and the Have nots?
Is that what the Union wants: teams that can (or do) spend the most have the odds intheir favor?
Does that make sense? Doesn’t Baseball need all 30 teams? Or at least 20?
FSF
Does it make sense that 100K Royals fans should have as much total equal satisfaction as 10 million Yankee fans? Does that make sense? Baseball doesn’t need all 30 teams. It just makes more money overall that way. It could easily get by with 20-24 and the way things are going, they may eventually be forced into contraction.
roiste
Baseball does NOT consist of the haves and have-nots. It consists of tries, and try-nots. The disadvantages “small-market” teams face are greatly overstated. Teams in tiny media markets like Kansas City and Milwaukee have shown that any team in the MLB has the revenue to dish out competitive payroll. These teams who routinely spend under $100M each year – TBR, OAK, PIT, MIA – it’s not because they can’t afford to spend money. They just don’t want to. The CBT doesn’t actually improve parity, it just gives rich owners an excuse not to spend
Simple Simon
15 teams spent half or less of what the Dodgers spent last year.
7 spent 1/3 or less of the Dodgers,
Because baseball is tricky and the best team wins a little over half the time, a lesser team can take a series.
A better team only improves its chances.
FSF
What’s even your point with all of that? It’s not exactly an epiphany for any of us who follow the game and the business behind it.
BLIN7Y
When has it ever been different? In Life there are always the Haves and Have Nots.
AshamedMethGoat
Once again, it’s the “small market” teams against everyone, just like ’94. If the owners are going to cry poverty, then they need to open their books for all the world to see. Of course, this won’t happen, so we just have to assume that some of the owners can’t afford to run their teams…Basically, if you can’t afford to give a fair tip, you shouldn’t be eating at the fancy restaurant.
Lastly, if you’re pro-owner (or anti-player) in this dispute, then you simply don’t know the history of baseball. Owners have been trying to jam the players for over 150 years, and have been generally successful at it, and this is why there’s so much acrimony now.
Time for things to change, but it’s not going to happen all at once. That said, players should take no less than a $230 million CBT for 2022. As a concession, they should offer a second year at the same amount before it starts going up by $4 million annually for the remainder of the CBA. This could be coupled with acceptance of the owners’ last minimum salary offer of $700k. Lastly, the establishment of the bonus pool itself is a win for players. Players should try to squeeze. the owners for another $10-15 million, but anything over the $30 million already on the table is icing on the cake. Deal with the pool size next CBA.
Of course, I’m just pulling this out of my backside. Owners will declare an impasse and this will go to the Feds.
Simple Simon
Why should it be $230M?
FSF
Because even that level is falling well short of the growth in MLB revenues.
Simple Simon
For some, not all
CHS O'sFan
What gets me is two of these are owners of typical high payroll clubs, one that has been crying poor for a few years and another that got a big market team to eat the last few years of Grienke’s deal.
What small market GM’s need to remember is if they ever need to be bailed out of their 3 yr, 60 Million left of a big deal, the big market clubs are the ones that will save them. They are always trying to compete and taking on $$ to save prospects for a solid but overpaid player is worth it.
Stanton, Grienke, Arenado and Cano were all signed to big money deals by smaller market teams that got a bailout of sorts from a bigger market team with space under the threshold. If the CBT stays where it is, those bailouts won’t be happening in the future.
Simple Simon
Most of the time when a team can’t afford a player they foolishly signed, they don’t unload the entire contract: they pay for someone else to take the deal.
Simple Simon
There probably won’t be a season!
4 teams don’t want $220M.
4 more and there won’t be 23 teams to vote yes.
There will not be 23 for $230M.
“Split the difference” ($229M) is not a compromise when one side won’t go that low AND the other side won’t go that high.
The players are wrong on this: it’s not a Cap. There are penalties for going higher but some teams do it every year
FSF
My solace in that is that the greedy owners will wind up losing much more than players. There are 1200 players and 30 owners feeding off that same revenue base. Sounds like your average owners have more to lose by on average like 40x more than your average player.
Simple Simon
Greedy owners vs greedy players!
The greedy owners can survive but the bottom feeders can’t.
Half the players have no fall back and the rich ones aren’t going to send even lunch money.
Let the players go a year without pay and see what happens next year!
ALL the Owners will survive.
FSF
That’s just dawning on you?
FSF
The owners have to fund close to $100M each whether baseball gets played or not. The players have to fund a lifestyle of $100K probably if they are making the minimum. Who do you think is going to have an easier time of it? ALL The players will get by just fine. Some owners will definitely be crapping bricks.
paule
Maybe we should go back to 16 teams. Only those in large market areas. Worked for about 60 years, although it excluded large Southern and Western cities which needed to be rectified.
Randy Red Sox
come on Manfred hurry up and cancel more games. In fact just cancel the season and be done with it. Not many fans would care.
dirkg
Arte Moreno’s “no” vote versus Mike Trout’s tweet about the owners not acting in good faith.
Wonderful.
James1955
The MLBPA will not agree to a hard cap and a salary floor and the owners will not agree to a salary floor without lowering the CBT by a lot.
JoeBrady
Just checking.
No mention by MLB-R of Boras coming in after the players agreed, and then proceeded to blow it up?
Nothing? What is it, a fear of offending the Boras, or the players?
2dmo4
Chris’ dad, Mike Illitch would never have voted against this. Theres a huge difference in earned wealth & inherited wealth.
Thanks Chris. Dick.
Lanidrac
Um, acting as a soft salary cap is the entire point of the CBT in the first place! It’s a good thing that very few teams surpass it each year, and that among those who do surpass it, they want to get back below it every few years to reset the escalating penalties! It’s been working exactly as it was designed to do!
That being said, since it is already working exactly as intended, there’s also no need to increase the penalties any further, and it really does need a significant bump after how relatively steady it’s been held for the last few years to where it hasn’t even matched normal inflation in the U.S.
P N Protocol
With the CBT, owners can control the salaries of their players, without having to collude (again) to cap costs.
User 3663041837
MLB proposed counting the cost of player meals against the luxury tax. Lol they gonna want all the big boys in the league to start dieting or else it’ll cost the team it’s tax.
P N Protocol
They also want to turn MiLB players into unpaid interns during ST. It seems to me that, no matter which group is ultimately to blame for all of this, the owners are scumbags. It’s just a thought.
dirkg
The more this sits with me, the more pissed I get as an Angels fan.
Arte came into Southern California, bought the team, and within a year changed the name to the Los Angeles Angels. Many (if not most) Angel fans hated the change as the Angels play in a much different demographic of Orange County. The move was advertised as a marketing move as the greater LA area (which includes the OC) is a much broader landscape. In short time, billboards were put up all over LA showing the Angels.
So Arte, you can’t change the name to LA Angels and then operate it like the team is still in lowly little Anaheim. Can’t have it both ways.
MarlinsFanBase
Interesting that the Marlins and Rays aren’t among the teams that voted against it.
SportsFan0000
If any of you Tigers fans had any doubts about whether Chris Illitch would spend
like his father Mike Illitch, then this should put an end to those fantasies..
200+ Detroit Tigers deficit payrolls are gone and never coming back.
larryb
BoB is a clown