The owners and players held their fourth consecutive day of meetings as the two sides continue to try and work out a new collective bargaining agreement, yet once again, “no substantial progress” came from the session, according to The Athletic’s Evan Drellich (Twitter links). Representatives from the league and the MLB Players Association are scheduled to meet again tomorrow.
As outlined by Drellich and The Washington Post’s Chelsea Janes, the union made two minor concessions based on past proposals. Whereas the MLBPA had sought to give an extra year of service time to 29 players considered to be victims of service time manipulation over the last five years, the union dropped that number to 20 players today.
The other new wrinkle related to the concept of a draft lottery to decide the first several picks of the amateur draft. The league offered a lottery covering the first four picks while the union wanted the lottery to cover the first seven picks, and today’s MLBPA proposal retained that seven-pick concept. However, the union altered its proposal to remove punishment for teams who had consecutive losing seasons. It “had been a league concern that [the] system would punish teams that were just bad and not tanking,” Janes writes.
MLBTR has learned more specifics regarding the union’s proposal for the draft lottery, which would take effect in 2023. All non-playoff teams would be included in the lottery. The odds of landing the first pick would be weighted by inverse order of the previous season’s standings as follows (assuming a 12-team playoff, as the MLBPA has proposed thus far):
- Team 1: 15% (the team with the worst record in baseball)
- Team 2: 15% (the team with the second-worst record in baseball)
- Team 3: 15%
- Team 4: 12.5%
- Team 5: 10%
- Team 6: 8%
- Team 7: 6.5%
- Team 8: 5%
- Team 9: 3.25%
- Team 10: 2.25%
- Team 11: 1.5%
- Team 12: 1.25%
- Team 13: 1.12%
- Team 14: 1%
- Team 15: 0.88%
- Team 16: 0.75%
- Team 17: 0.625%
- Team 18: 0.375%
The MLBPA is also proposing competitiveness adjustments. Revenue sharing payors that finish in the bottom eight in winning percentage in each of the two previous seasons or in the bottom 12 in each of the three previous seasons would pick no earlier than 10th. Additionally, any team that does not receive revenue sharing that finishes in the bottom 12 in each of the four or more previous seasons would have their pick moved to #18.
Also, beginning with the 2024 draft, any revenue sharing recipient finishing in the bottom eight in each of the three previous seasons would pick no earlier than 10th. Any such club in the bottom eight in each of the four or more previous seasons would have their pick moved to #18.
The union also made a slight modification in its efforts to grant rookies bonus service time based on performance, as Drellich first reported (via Twitter). Under the MLBPA’s proposal, infielders/catchers/DH’s who finish in the top five at their position in their respective leagues in WAR would receive a full year of service, while outfielders, starting pitchers and relievers who finish among their league’s top fifteen in WAR would as well. That’s a slight reduction from the union’s previous ask, which would’ve granted a full year of service for infielders/catchers/DH’s who finished among the top seven and outfielders/pitchers who finished among the top twenty.
The union is still pursuing a full year of service for top five finishers in Rookie of the Year balloting, all-MLB placement and a top three placement in Reliever of the Year voting. MLB has thus far been opposed to the idea of players “earning” service time, instead offering teams additional draft choices for promoting high-performing players at the start of the season.
Bigger-picture CBA topics (such as the luxury tax thresholds, minimum salary increases, salary arbitration eligibility, etc.) still remain up in the air, with today’s talks apparently yielding no movement on any of these issues. As has become a regular feature of these talks, both sides left a negotiating session feeling frustrated. According to Michael Silverman of The Boston Globe, the “players [are] upset with how far apart sides remain,” and “MLB negotiators told union they have run out of ideas and that owners are upset with players.”
February 28 remains Major League Baseball’s stated deadline for reaching a new CBA, or else the league has said it will start canceling games from the regular-season schedule. As Janes notes, “the union doesn’t exactly agree to [February 28] as a deadline,” so it remains to be seen whether any urgency will finally be shown by either side in tomorrow’s session, or in any talks that might be scheduled for the weekend or Monday. Considering the huge differences of opinion that remain between the league and the MLBPA, it is hard to believe that an entire new collective bargaining agreement could even be close to settled by Monday, let alone a fully agreement reached.
I’m getting VERY ANNOYED. It’s going to be March in less than five days now.
I think our best hope is that something drastically changes on Monday. I don’t expect any real movement between now and then. If they don’t reach an agreement by the end of the day Monday MLB will definitely cancel games. Once the games start getting cancelled it could drag on a lot longer. Once they start cancelling games I am sure MLB will switch tactics and start trying to wait out the players even longer because that’s when the players will be under more pressure by losing paychecks. I’m personally of the mindset of if games are cancelled it doesn’t really matter how many. The damage will be done so MLB might as well say exactly what they want and just wait for players to start softening their stance after losing the massive income checks they were expecting. When you have a group of over 800 people, some of them will eventually start softening their stance the longer they go without income. It’s inevitable. The longer MLB waits the more likely the MLBPA is to fracture and have some of the lesser wealthy players want the union to just take what MLB is offering so they can start supporting their families again. I hope it doesn’t come to that but my guess is that’s what’s happening if Tuesday comes and goes with no serious progress. If the owners are going to lose MLB games they might as well make it worth it and get what they want in the deal. The owners won’t really be effected that much by a loss of games until July or August rolls around so they have all that time to starve out the players and watch them give up hundreds of millions of guaranteed dollars to see if that softens their stance.
i don’t think anyone’a digging in AFTER games are cancelled. why would they wait the players out AFTER games are cancelled if having done so all along would produce the same result, if not trick the union into making a deal before games are even cancelled? to me, i think its clear no one benefits from games being cancelled unless one side gives in real quickly and the concession is huge, which I don’t see as inevitable even in such a situation.
The idea to waiting the players out after games are cancelled is that their are a ton of players who are going to miss having those paychecks a lot more than the owners will miss having their revenue. Obviously the owners want the revenue but already having billions of dollars in the bank will make them much more equipped to deal without it than some of the players who don’t have much in the bank and see their income disappear. A handful of billionaires will be able to withstand the lack of income a lot more easily than hundreds of people who have way less in the bank than they do. They just have to wait for some players who are going broke to wish the union would take the deal on the table so they can get paid again and that will fracture the union’s opinion on what the best next course of action should be. Most of the players will miss their paychecks a lot more than the owners will.
And here’s the other thing—the owners aren’t losing any money. They are saving a bit by not having to operate spring facilities. The owners don’t make much money in April–the players do. The owners are worried about the season until the playoffs—that is where the big money comes in. Yes, the TV deal for the season brings in a bunch, but playoffs is the big payday. A few weeks missed in April and May aren’t going to hurt these guys’ bottom line much at all. The players–especially the minimum guys, rookies and mid-level guys are going to be bleeding out some May.
Hammer – You also need to mention what’s been discussed ad nauseam here already. Owners won’t lose that much revenue to start the season, their biggest revenue months are August, September and especially October. Take away the home openers and April/May are the worst months revenue-wise.
dylan – “The owners are worried about the season until the playoffs—that is where the big money comes in.”
I assume you meant to type “aren’t” worried…
That’s just not sensible because the owners know that less than half of them will make the playoffs. The owners will lose plenty of money losing regular season games and have an interest in not cancelling games. This is posturing.
Regardless of who makes it, they all share playoff TV revenue.
Owners split the massive payout that comes from national tv for playoffs… It’s actually true that owners care more about the playoff money than the entire regular season which is why they fought to play as few he’s as possible in 2020 while increasing the playoffs to as many games as possible
It’s a common misconception that only playoff teams get money … Also players don’t get paid by owners for the playoffs so it’s basically all profit
Good thing the players tied them getting full compensation this year with any chance of expanded playoffs.
You underestimate how much owners want their money as well. The same concept applies to owners as it does to players. Some owners need the money more than others and will feel the pressure of ticket revenues early on, just as some players. Some owners will be fine all year, as some players will be too.
Also they’re not all sitting with billions in the bank. A few are. But for almost all owners the team is by far their primary financial asset.
In addition, a majority of teams have minority owners where there’s a lot less far less weathy people. They don’t have any actual control but they will heavily influence majority owners.
The pressure exists financially for both sides pretty equally.
This is exactly correct, I think. The owners hold the cards here, but the degree to which the players have misunderstood that has surprised me.
I disagree with this assessment. The least valuable team in the league is the Rays, and they are estimated by Sportico to be worth $1.2 bill. The owners have access to enormous liquidity just from their MLB assets, which as you point out, are often far less valuable than their non-MLB assets. If anyowner is having financial difficulties, the others will float him rather than lose billions over the life of a bad CBA.
The minority owners are along for the ride, and have about zero decision making influence.
I think you misunderstand the game here. None of this is about “fairness” or “equity.” When this much money is at stake for this relatively few people who have authorized essentially a single party to be their agent, it is no more than pure negotiating leverage.
The outcome will be driven by who has more to lose if there is no agreement, the relative upside for each party, and the relative appetites for risk. It will not have anything substantive to do with billionaire v millionaires, mean old owners, ungrateful players, “won’t someone think of the fans,” or any other such battle cries, other than perhaps some relatively minor impacts.
If a third party, say the Feds, get involved because politicians see a window for electoral gain, it is an entirely different game to be played. But for now, it is about raw leverage and not what is right.
And the weather at the end of March and first of April in the Midwest and northern teams doesn’t bring out many fans. So no lose to the owners
Yes but u r not factoring in the effect on the game in general which will hit the owners bottomlines a lot more than the loss of a pay cheque will hurt the players and over a much longer time period….even a 20% loss in attendance and more importantly tv viewership could cost the owners billions over the next 10-20 years….so really both sides hv a lot to lose here and suggesting otherwise is simply shortsighted!!
The union has withheld licensing revenue for the past 4 seasons – roughly $350-400 million. They will use this to pay players if games are cancelled, and can likely go 2-3 months, if not more.
Well, two thirds of MLB’s revenue comes from other than gate receipts. If they have to rebate networks for missed games, it won’t matter whether the missed games were in April or June or September. Of the gate receipts, season tickets include games in April as well as later in the season also.
So yeah, there’s some marginal difference between gate receipts in April and later in the year, but it’s still a big hit.
You beat me to it, blueoctober. It’s easy to talk about the Billionaires like Hammer does all the time, but he forgets we’ve seen the net worth of the owners of these teams. They aren’t all Billionaires. They also like to argue about liquidity, and even though they own a bunch of stuff and are worth a ton, it’s not like they have cash on hand in large sums. Hmmm, well I’d say that works perfectly in this argument as well then. They don’t all have the stockpiles of cash that the top owners in the league may have. How long before the cracks begin showing in their wall. Not to mention, you have wildcards like Steve Cohen, who has shown he’s a fan at heart. Do you think he really cares about nickel and dimes when he thinks he has a team built to contend and wants to see it out on the field? At some point if this drags on, we’ll see both sides start to sweat a little. To think it’s only going to be one side is short sighted.
It only takes 8 owners to block any vote ,so guys like Cohen won’t break the rest of them
It only takes 8 votes by the owners to block guys like Cohen from breaking the rest of them.
Let them use it ,break the union
Let them use it
Use it up
Have at it
@out of line 2: The players who are in the playoffs do make extra money. Each playoff game they are on the roster they get paid the same as if they were playing an extra regular season game. I’m not sure why so many people think players don’t get paid in the playoffs but it seems to be a common misconception. If players didn’t get paid in the playoffs they would refuse to play. One of the reasons players use playoff games as leverage is because they get paid as if each playoff game is just an extended regular season game while owners obviously profit more from playoff games than they do regular season games. I still don’t think that’s a justification for players not wanting extended playoffs. It’s still more money in their pocket. The more teams in the playoffs the more players make extra money. The more playoff games there are the more extra money the players make. It seems like a win-win to me. They really seem concerned with what the owners are making so much that they are willing to take less money just to make sure the owners also make less money. That doesn’t really seem like a decision that would be made that someone who truly has baseball’s best interest at heart. If x-dollars is good enough for a regular season game it seems like it should be good enough for a playoff game. I would think from the players perspective the only difference is the playoff games would be a little more fun. Taking less money just because they want the owners to make less money looks like cutting off their nose to spite their face to me. If both sides make more money both sides should be supportive of it. It’s kind of funny. Players wanted more games during the 2020 regular season and during this regular season. Then when the league starts talking about more playoff games, which make the most money for the league as a whole the players are like, “Whoa! Let’s not get crazy. We don’t want to play in anymore games that could make the league more money than regular season games. We only like playing in the games that make the league the least amount of money possible.”
If the “owners won’t lose that much revenue to start the season” is because of how bad attendance and ratings are early on, they certainly don’t want to miss games cause of a lockout and piss off millions of fans. That will hurt attendance and ratings for years to come
Accurate assessment bronyar. Add in that many prospects & NRIs are in camp preparing to compete for MLB jobs when a new CBA is agreed to while MLBPA members are locked out & the scale tips towards the owners. Just a matter of time until the enough “marginable” players realize this and call for the union to settle.
The owners made it through the covid ex perience with little attendance, I’m thinking they can survive just fine until the players union changes their stance now.
They have insurance for that.
Hammer- players receive a percentage of gate receipts for post season games. Their annual salary becomes irrelevant.
MLB makes way more money per game in the post season than in the regular season. For one thing, ALL the revenue from TV contracts is national. Fox and TBS are all geared toward the post season, and ESPN just did a new deal dropping two thirds of their regular season games, with a $100 million per season payment in the event they can cover the first round of expanded playoffs.
Tony Clark was a mediocre player, but he is 10x a better player than a president.
It would be nice if the Unions did what else you are paying to do, and take care of the people who NEED their paychecks. No that’s a union. How about the rich players pitch in so they DON”T have to give in? Just an idea, but great point.
My understanding is that the union set aside money for the players in case there is stoppage not sure exact amount but they are set for waiting it out and most guys are not losing out as much as you think they would. Part of the union dues covers that.
I am normally on the labor side of a union dispute, but this time, I sympathize with the owners. In 1965, the average salary was $85,000 which would equal $1,450,000 today, yet the salaries today average about $4,700,000 with extremely rich benefits. The ticket prices have gone through the roof and the sport is losing customers that simply cannot afford to go to games anymore and it needs to change. Many people complain about the value of the teams now, but generally the value of a major league franchise has little if any bearing on the cash flow of the team. If a determination is made to cancel games, this could go on a while because the players are making so much money that they can afford to stay out longer – having looked at the differences in proposals, this season could be very short if its played at all. Then both sides lose – I have been a loyal baseball fan for almost 70 years, but a long strike – I’m done as are a lot of other fans. There is simply too much available entertainment these days and I can walk away and find plenty to do. You guys better settle or many of us are walking away for good.
Ticket prices has nothing to do with player salaries. How do the Pirates justify charging $$$ for seats behind home plate? It’s because they are competing with other sports, theaters, concerts and entertainment venues. Not salaries! You think the salaries have gone through the roof? Well, so have team values, in fact salaries have not gone up as much as teams have increased in value. Please do some research and stop siding with the rich owners. At least players have a unique ability. Nobody goes to games or turns on the TV to watch owners own.
I am normally on the labor side of a union dispute, but this time, I sympathize with the owners. In 1965, the average salary was $85,000 which would equal $1,450,000 today, yet the salaries today average about $4,700,000 with extremely rich benefits. The ticket prices have gone through the roof and the sport is losing customers that simply cannot afford to go to games anymore and it needs to change. Many people complain about the value of the teams now, but generally the value of a major league franchise has little if any bearing on the cash flow of the team. If a determination is made to cancel games, this could go on a while because the players are making so much money that they can afford to stay out longer – having looked at the differences in proposals, this season could be very short if its played at all. Then both sides lose – I have been a loyal baseball fan for almost 70 years, but a long strike – I’m done as are a lot of other fans. There is simply too much available entertainment these days and I can walk away and find plenty to do. You guys better settle or many of us are walking away for good.
85k in 1965?
Harko: I don’t know where you are getting your “facts,” but according to baseball-reference.com, in 1965, Willie Mays made $90k in his 14th big league season. Hank Aaron, in his 12th season, made $63,500. So lets just say that it is highly doubtful that “In 1965, the average salary was $85,000..” As far as the valuation of a franchise is concerned, they are valued based on projected profits. Owners did not become billionaires by being financially stupid: they don’t invest billions to purchase a franchise that is not generating profits commensurate with the investment. And if an MLB franchise were such a poor investment, there would not be groups of prospective owners lined up to purchase those franchises.
MLB teams don’t generate as much “profit” they do increase in value. Think of a house that is bought to be rented out. You might break even every year, but the value of the property goes up every year.
“MLB teams don’t generate much profit”
Incorrect, sir. They generate a lot of revenue. In fact, the NYY generated $678M worth of revenue… even the Pirates generated almost $300M worth of revenue BEFORE revenue sharing. Pirates had $50M in payroll? Seriously?
Courtesy of statistica research, which I cannot post to the board due to the paywall. But you can do research on it for free.
Except revenue and profit are not the same thing. Numbers aren’t public, the only ones are the Atlanta Braves who have different holdings. MLB teams operating profit is smaller than most fans think and it’s not where the bulk of the money comes from. The bulk of the money comes from the appreciation of the asset over time. You can also do some research for free.
Right, but from revenue we can deduce profit (margins), specifically from the roster payroll. It’s….substantial. There’s a reason they fight so hard to keep their books closed and it’s not for lack of profit. Thus, if it supported their assertion, they would open them. I don’t buy that line for a second.
Each team reflects hundreds of millions in profit from payroll to revenue. Each team is worth billions of dollars in total value. There’s no way their profit margins are small.
You can’t “deduce” profit by substracting player salaries from revenue. They don’t “fight” to keep their books closed, they are private businesses not publicly traded, they don’t have shareholders, they don’t have to show anything to the public, they don’t have to open their books to show they are not making a high profit. From the website you sent me… The league average operating profit in 2019 was around $50M, which was the highest in 20 years. For a business that is worth $2 Billion this represents around 2.5% which is by definition small.
Okay, so you’ve done some nice restructuring of numbers and using obtuse language to prove your point so I’ll counter more specifically:
1 – “League average operating profit” defines the operational profit, not revenue sharing in the hundreds of millions of dollars, specifically the $91M average/year per team, just from TV, etc., not including 52% of local revenue.
2 – I never said they didn’t have a right to keep their books closed. In fact I’ve said the opposite on this site. But since you’re only argument is semantics, they won’t open their books in support of their own argument which is counterintuitive. If one has evidence supporting one’s claim, why would one not use said evidence? Your answer, “Because it’s their right.” I understand that, but it’s counterproductive & counterintuitive.
3 – if one has a revenue sharing of $90M like the Pirates, and a payroll of $50M, not including TV, playoffs, etc, that’s $90M operating surplus on average. This is not even the total profit, you’re again playing word games to further your point.
4 – If NYY made $678M revenue & spent ~$210M on payroll, you think they $410M operating costs? Since it’s widely reported player costs are the biggest component, that’s insane.
5 – From the same website and to counter your 2.5% math:
“Another indicator of the MLB’s and, by extension, each team’s success, is the average revenue multiple which compares the value of a franchise to its revenue. In 2021, the average revenue multiple per MLB franchise was 5.19, more than twice the figure from 2011.” – Statistica
Tell me how poor the owners are again.
I am not defending owners nor claiming they are poor. And the only thing I was able to deduct from your lengthy post is that you still don’t know the difference between revenue and profit.
Again, you’re citing I don’t know the difference between revenue and profit when I explain the difference in the third paragraph. Maybe, you just don’t understand? For that, I apologize. Revenue is all the money coming in, in essence, while profit, is the money that remains after their expenses, like payroll, as I explained specifically in the Pirates portion of my narrative.
So, if you’ve read my post and only come away with the thought I don’t understand the difference between two clearly discernible topics which I clearly delineated, I cannot help you. Also, I like how you skipped all the other assertions I addressed specifically. Explain how one cannot identify a profit margin by subtracting player salaries (the largest consumption of costs) from revenue?
For someone so critical of a definition, which I’ve explained, by example, you’ve provided none. And you’ve not supported your theory. It also tells me you wrote with limited information and now that you’ve been corrected, your default is an attempted insult, or the appearance thereof.
Additionally, Tesseract, MLBTR just did a fine article in the Braves revenue v profit article that would help to give a solid grasp of these two concepts in relation to an MLB team using their actual numbers.
And, their profit is…..$104M for a Covid-restricted season. That quashes the assertions/rumors they don’t make much profit.
Well slap my ass & call me Nancy. Ahahahaha!
This is the only good poster on MLBTR.
Who cares if you’re annoyed?
i am beyond angry about this i do not want to miss any baseball the way it is going the whole season could be canceled
Even as much as I’m addicted to watching Major League Baseball—— I find it hard to feel sorry for the multimillionaire players negotiating for more money.
I find it totally disgusting that the Billionaire Owners are arguing on their part to make more money for themselves.
In my opinion—— if both sides of these money hungry Unions and Owners—- can’t get together on a common contract for Baseball.
The MLB FANS need to make their own Union and boycott buying any type of game tickets for one full year!!!
If the sides won’t come together and it results in suspending games from the regular 162 game season——- the MLB FANS UNION, needs to step in to block ticket sales of every team immediately!!!
Even as much as I’m addicted to watching Major League Baseball—— I find it hard to feel sorry for the multimillionaire players negotiating for more money.
I find it totally disgusting that the Billionaire Owners are arguing on their part to make more money for themselves.
In my opinion—— if both sides of these money hungry Unions and Owners—- can’t get together on a common contract for Baseball.
The MLB FANS need to make their own Union and boycott buying any type of game tickets for one full year!!!
If the sides won’t come together and it results in suspending games from the regular 162 game season——- the MLB FANS UNION, needs to step in to block ticket sales of every team immediately!!!
That would serve both side right. Of course I can’t see that happening. But maybe it’d get someone’s attention!!
I’ve been addicted to watching or listening to MLB baseball for 70 years!!!
I wish these Millionaire players and Billionaire Owners could put their egos aside—- come together on a deal without loosing regular season games.
If these rich individuals can’t reach a deal by Feb. 28, Fans should boycott buying tickets to regular season game for a year.
That obviously won’t happen—— But that’s about the only thing which might wake both sides up to reality.
I’ve been addicted to watching or listening to MLB baseball for 70 years!!!
I wish these Millionaire players and Billionaire Owners could put their egos aside—- come together on a deal without loosing regular season games.
If these rich individuals can’t reach a deal by Feb. 28th—— There will be a ton of hacked off fans!! Including me!!
I’ve been addicted to watching or listening to MLB baseball for 70 years!!!
I wish these Millionaire players and Billionaire Owners could put their egos aside—- come together on a deal without loosing regular season games.
Stop spamming
I’ve been addicted to watching or listening to MLB baseball for 70 years!!!
I wish these Millionaire players and Billionaire Owners could put their egos aside—- come together on a deal.
I’ve been addicted to watching or listening to MLB baseball for 70 years!!! I can’t believe this has been drug out so long that the season could shortened!! Crazy!
I wake up to read this and finally some great news. I love it. If I’m the owners I just walk away from the table start spring training in full swing with minor league players and say ” gentleman it’s like this. We are moving forward with you as the future. You have a choice to make. Go back and join the old MLBPA or here’s the old agreement with a 10 yr agreement,form your own PA AND LETS MOVE FORWARD.
There’s a simple solution to all the problems. The owners lift the lockout and they play under the old CBA while the do what they SHOULD of been doing since December which is keep negotiating. But that makes way too much sense so …..NOT.
LOL. I just wrote an article about that today. How it would work A pipe dream? Okay,
blessyouboys.com/2022/2/25/22930467/mlb-lockout-ba…
Things aren’t going well between dumb & dumber? Who’da thought?
what exactly is the union’s criteria for the players affected by service time manipulation? i get wanting to prevent it, but finding specific such players in the past and demanding compensation for them? really?
They don’t really have any as far as I can see other than requiring less service time needed for free agency. MLB is offering draft picks to teams who have a rookie start the season and do well but the players say that’s not enough. Some people say a system should be in place to determine if a player is ready and teams will be penalized if they aren’t brought up in time. What they don’t realize is that system is already in place and a prospect’s readiness is based on opinion so it can’t be enforced just because some fan or player decides they think the prospect is ready.
Having players “compensated” for teams doing what was allowed in the CBA sounds more like penalizing teams for doing what was allowed in the CBA. It could also be the union trying to make amends for what they perceive as a screw up in the previous negotiations. No Backsies.
There is an expectation that all parties to a contract will act in good faith. Players work to improve their skills and play while owners will promote and play players appropriately based on performance and team need and not based on suppressing salaries. The owners recognize this, to an extent, as exhibited by their BS excuses for keeping players at AAA “to work on skills” just until they clear the free agency or Super Two service time deadline. If the owners thought their conduct was in good faith compliance with the CBA, they’d just say that they are holding a player at AAA to gain a year of service time or avoid Super Two status. So, the union is looking to compensate some of the players burned by the manipulation.
From what I’ve seen, there should be ZERO expectation – from either side – about their counterparts acting in good faith. Every single particular should be as concrete as ink and paper can make it. The MLB and the MLBPA are not partners – and apparently neither one really wants to be. Unfortunately, they are rivals, first, last, and always. Both orgs have made that absolutely, crystal clear.
“Good faith”? As if.
@stymee: I like the point you just made. That should be the leagues slogan. “No backsies.” You can’t just decide you made a mistake before and you want the league to pay for it now. You signed off on the last CBA so you must have been at least okay with it. That’s the standard now and if you don’t like it it’s your fault. No backsies. What is this? Preschool playground crap trying to function in a legal negotiation? Actually… They don’t even allow backsies on pre-school playgrounds. This is beyond that. If the players get a better deal than last time they win. Period. That’s because last time they liked the deal enough to put their signature on it. You can’t try and change your mind later to alter the foundational precedent. No F-ing backsies.
I’m assuming they just looked at dudes that were called up within 48 hours ish of the deadline passing… Pretty easy to tell who had service time manipulated for extra year of control bc it’s a hard deadline vs super 2 which is a moving target
service time manipulation is more nuanced than that. you can start a guy in the Majors, but then send him down later and bank that extra year then. just picking every dude coming up around the cutoff is fairly arbitrary, and a lot of teams wait longer to avoid looking like they are manipulating.
Sure — and that is obv much harder to prove… And a lot more common and systemic… But they only had 29 players in the original request so unlikely that they took it to that degree… Not sure how far they went back but I’d say that if it was say 4-5 years you could easily find 29 clear cut cases of obvious service time manipulation
There needs to be major progress on Friday and the weekend are the fans are going to lose games. I think with all the meetings going on they both have a great idea for making a deal.
Hope they Cancel the season and lose all their fans, they deserve it!!
if they don’t play a full 162 games schedule this is one fan they WILL have lost
So, if they cancel the first 12 games of the season, you will be so angry about the loss of those 12 games, that you won’t watch the remaining 1`50, or the playoffs? OK, got it.
I’m out if it’s a 161 game season. I’m already prepped to enjoy this current college season and MILB. This is the second time in 3 years they have argued and cost us games. They need to get it together ASAP.
Randy I remember you saying that in an AOL chatroom in 1994, but you never left baseball then so I don’t think you’d leave it now.
Especially with this year being the 15th anniversary of the 2007 championship.
FPG: What’s AOL chat room?
Fever: I’ve been on another site with Randy too. He loves to complain, especially about the Red Sox. He will be back. Wouldn’t be the same without him.
I’m already ambivalent about whether MLB continues at all, but that began with the rule changes they have already implemented and those they are talking about implementing going forward, which basically cater to the lowest common denominator among fans who don’t have much understanding about strategy and other nuances within the game and just want to see a lot of offense. In my opinion, MLB has been gradually ruining the game for a while now and will continue to do so. This lockout is just one more thing causing me to lose interest.
And yet here you are… Commenting on mlbtraderumors … Miss me with that bullsh*t take
Always someone with your own BS take, Out_of_Line 2. The fact that MLB is alienating fans like me does not mean we do not have an opinion on the matter. I suppose, based on your simpleton comment, that this is a concept which is too complicated for you.
Well said. Baseball has and always will be my first love, but the lessening amount of strategy and increased frequency of the three true outcomes have diluted the sport for me. Frankly, I consider myself more of a Mets fan than I do a baseball fan at this point.
Not that I’ll be abandoning the sport, but it’s just not quite the same. I’ve actually been getting more into basketball in the meantime. I enjoy watching rotation decisions and teams that play with good ball movement.
Really, though, one could argue that all of the major sports have become more boring as a result of analytics and rule changes. In basketball it’s all about 3s now. And the NFL has become a league of no defense, more passing. Or maybe I’m just stubborn against change. Regardless, I feel baseball has been diluted the most. And the constant bickering between two bad faith actors in MLB and MLPBA does not help.
The owners have no intention of reaching a deal that requires legitimate compromise on their part. That much should be understood by now. They’ll continue to offer nickles & dimes, then blame the players for the loss of games if they don’t concede.
And a handful of commenters here will get duped and spout off, blaming both parties and/or making the ever-boring billionaire vs. millionaire argument.
Thank you, MLBTR, for adding the mute option.
The union wants to retroactively grant arbitration to players. That’s absurd.
The union wants 80 percent of two year players to get arbitration. Again absurd.
It’s not just the owners. It’s both
Both sides need to drop these silly positions.
With regard to minimum salary, MLB is offering a 19% increase over the next five years … but MLBPA wants an immediate 36% increase and an overall 68% increase over the next five years.
To me that’s one of the two most absurd demands they are making, pushing a minimum salary that’s nearly a million dollars.
The $115M pre-arb bonus pool is the other absurdity.
The NBA minimum rookie salary in $925K in 2021-22. The NFL minimum salary is $705K in 2022. The NHL minimum salary is $750K in 2021-22. How is the MLBPA’s minimum salary request absurd?
You can’t compare to the other sports in my opinion. The revenues, service time rules, number of union members, etc. are all different and are far more relevant to determine what is a fair salary than just saying are professional athletes should make the same money.
I don’t have an issue with the players demands on minimum salary. Right now the owners don’t pay good young players close to their value.
And if a kid makes it to the bigs for a couple years, I don’t have an issue with him making a couple million bucks over his short career. I’m going to make a lot more than a couple million bucks in my career.
I don’t think more than a third should qualify for super two status. And I think they can compromise on how much goes into the young player pool.
There is plenty of blame to go around. It’s not all on the owners or players.
Sweet. Will the Union accept non-guaranteed contracts like the NFL?
If I was an owner I would gladly raise the minimum to $1M/year in exchange for an NFL-like non-guaranteed contract arrangement.
You’re looking at increases by percentages of where things were at in 2021, but you have to look at the last CBA to understand how disproportionate salaries have been up to this point as well as the margin of profit MLB is making off the backs of the players.
The 115m bonus pool would cover 150 players. MLB’s last offer was 20m for 30 players. The difference isn’t that far off per player, the key difference is the number of players.
tim – I’d be happy to compare.
NBA has 15 players on their active roster, MLB has 26 players. When you have nearly half the number of players, you pay them better.
NFL doesn’t have guaranteed contracts, MLB does.
The NHL makes less money overall as a league, has similar roster sizes (22 or 23 players) and has 32 total teams. How is their minimum salary not relevant?
The NHL makes less money than MLB. It has similar roster sizes (22 or 23 players) and it’s a 32 team league. How is its minimum salary not relevant?
i do agree the minor league system and minimum salary opens up a lot of leeway for owners to manipulate things.. but if they really hate it then they should remove the minor leagues, and make non-guaranteed contracts. those young players can get big money, but there’s going to be a much smaller pool and potential for non-guaranteed
NBA is higher since there’s less players to share profits. NHL has smaller rosters than MLB as well. NFL has more players per roster, but significantly higher profits compared to MLB.
NHL has less revenue than MLB, but also much lower ceiling on salaries. Highest paid NHL player is like 16M so the salaries per team are lower than MLB who have a much larger pay gap between min salary and star players.
Makes sense MLB has the lowest min salary. If the max contracts were less there’s be more money to spread to the min salary guys like NHL.
You know what’s absurd? That MLB caved 37 years ago to go from 2 years service time arbitration to 3 and you think it’s absurd that 37 years later then trying to get back 80% of that concession is absurd.
You know what’s actually absurd? That MLB is trying to force a defacto salary cap when it caused the worst strike in MLB history almost 30 years ago
Out of Line…
Any luxury cap that’s more of a barrier than a speed bump is absurd. There are only a handful to teams that can go over that cap. With 12 teams in the playoffs, that should give everyone a chance to play in the post-season.
Both sides have valid points. And both sides have absurd positions.
Salary cap is not absurd. It works.
None of that’s “absurd”. They’re starting points that have room for compromise.
What’s absurd are the MLB counter-proposals of 5m for the bonus pool and the 5k increases for minimum salaries, which wouldn’t even match inflation rates.
But yeah, keep thinking both sides are to blame–hook, line, and sinker.
Some of these positions on both sides are just tactical, meant to draw concessions from the other side, which they think is taking other unreasonable positions.
the biggest, most absurd position that has to be dropped is the owners’ position on the CBT. It’s a complete non starter.
If that’s the case, we might end up with a complete non season.
Patrick: Looks like the owners want a salary cap and the players do not. Instead of a cap the owners want stronger CBT penalties which is the same as a cap. I am fine with a cap or stronger CBT penalties. That should cap spending by big-market teams which will help competitive balance. It is not perfect, but it is better than nothing for competitive balance. If there is no cap and no CBT penalties, the Dodgers might spend $350M on player payroll per year. Who knows what the big market teams will spend. I don’t want to see the same big-market teams in the World Series each year.
Nobody is arguing for NO CBT. The players have proposed one, with the same tax rates as previous, but a threshold that is $20 million higher than the current level adjusted for inflation. They’ll have to come down, but the owners proposal only leads to no baseball.
More than doubling the tax rates? One percent increase in the thresholds? That can’t be taken seriously.
Another thing is the salaries. They are 100% the amount they signed for. Other sports are more incentive laden and not 100% guaranteed. MLB players get a lot more stability than other professional leagues. NFL and NBA those salaries are not guaranteed
Muting someone over a difference of opinion is the reflection of someone whose opinion probably isn’t very smart to begin with.
Muting folks who have ridiculous, extremely biased, or completely illogical opinions and who operate in bad faith is one thing. But muting folks simply because they disagree with you means you want to live in an echo chamber, which makes me question why you are even here in the first place.
Dear Baseball,
We still love you and will welcome you back with open arms.
Sincerely,
The Fans
Dear Baseball,
We feel embarrassed by how much we wish we could collectively leave you all forever to make you feel bad for your inactions, yet can’t actually do it because, in this what-have-you-done-for-me-lately world, our hearts are hopelessly addicted to sport. Screw you, and looking forward to having you back, as always.
Love/Hate,
The Fans
@Superstar Prospect Wander Javier Not all of us. Love the game. Love this site. The last few years have been difficult for everyone. Baseball is a welcome escape, but I’m not coming crawling back if these two sides don’t settle things without missing a chunk of games. I mean of course I will eventually, but definitely taking a season or two or more off. I remember my dad took some time off after the 94 strike, and I couldn’t understand why. Now I get it. Sometimes you need to walk away. It’s hard to love the game with this posturing.
So perfectly said man! Bravo!
This fan’s arms are closing.
Dear Fans,
We only care about your money. Period.
Regards,
MLB & MLBPA
That’s exactly right – to think owners will foot any of the bill is ludicrous! The owners pass the charge to the fans, and the icing will be a less competitive league on top of it all. Most of what the union is asking for will impact the smaller markets more so than the Big boys causing a larger gap than already exists in competition.
When the whining stops for a day the real negotiating has started. No press leaks lead to agreement. Sorry but true.
Shocking!
More talk around the periphery while the core issue of the CBT sits on the sideline. Pick your big rocks first, get that handled, then move back to the other issues.
bruh
Im just going to post Christian Bergman’s response to a question regarding billionaire vs millionaire labor dispute:
“I’m glad there are people out there that understand this aspect of baseball. We could have a whole discussion about this very topic. But it’s important to point out that I got a lot further in terms of service time than a lot of guys I played with, but I played 10 professional seasons and never reached arbitration. As far Super 2 goes, you only get one shot at it. None of the players are asking for anyone’s sympathy, we all understand that we are fortunate to play a game for a living. That doesn’t mean we just throw our hands up and give in to the teams every demand and unwind everything they’ve fought for. If we never unionized, the league minimum would be whatever it was 30 years ago – just look at MILB to see what happens. If you give an inch, they will take a mile. And I saw that first hand in the way they treat players sometimes”
I get what you’re saying and understand your point of view. My issue is the Union refuses to accept a salary cap, salary floor system because they disproportionately care about the top 1% of players compared to those like you.
The fact the Union hired a Scott Boras employee to negotiate this deal on their behalf just further ensured Boras’ clients will have their issues settled first before the lower and middle class players are spoken for.
If you were objective you would see the Union has, and continues, to misrepresent the best interests of the majority of players because Boras wants to keep getting those huge commission checks.
The way I see it, you players are being hoodwinked by a man who claims to represent your best interests, when in actuality he cares only about himself and the Max Scherzer’s of the Union.
Is it any wonder the players share of total revenues has sunk so dramatically over the last 5 years?
The only way to have a salary cap and floor is if there was a true revenue sharing system with players and owners, and that would require MLB to open its books. They won’t.
There’s also a trust issue, as in lack of trust. Just look at how the owners are handling these negotiations.
Well, they have a de facto salary cap with taxes.
They could have a de facto salary floor with taxes
They don’t have to open the books, and subject pay increases to doctoring the expenses. They could tie the increases to an index based on known revenues not so subject to hiding.
@kellin
I thought he was an interesting guest chat-host that had some compelling takes. But I was left with the overall impression that he was somewhat bitter – in a vaguely narcissistic kind of way – about his failure to sustain his big-league career.
He never quite managed to stick long enough, over a lenghthy period of years, to accumulate more than 2+ years of service time, and he sounded a bit resentful about that (and some other stuff too).
I mean, not being able to keep your ERA under 5.00, might have had something to do with getting sent-down/released repeatedly. And about one or two other things he mentioned – he just sounded whiney to me. It left me wanting to hear the proverbial “other side of the story”, if you know what I mean. Not to mention, I’d like to have asked him about certain cold, hard, immutable realities – and whether he might sometimes see certain things in a too-personal way.
But, I will say this – perhaps if he and I were sitting down together having a beer, and I could ask him to clarify some of these things, maybe I’d have come away with a better impression of his POV. I won’t claim to be certain that I’ve got him pegged, not by any means.
As it stands though, your referencing of his remarks as some sort of an unassailable voice on matters, leaves me unmoved.
BTW, this bit: “If we never unionized, the league minimum would be whatever it was 30 years ago…” seems gratuitously melodramatic to me, a highly unrealistic straw-man’s posturing. And this one: “If you give an inch, they will take a mile.” Is there anybody who knows anything – that doesn’t know – that cuts both ways? Good grief.
I think they will get something done and sooner rather than later. They are fighting over millions when billions are at stake. Both sides are moving and one will cave in.
Bring in the mediator already. This is getting ridiculous.
Further: put in a clause that calls for binding arbitration six months prior to the expiration of the next CBA. Let’s try to cut the odds of this repeating down.
honestly, my main hope is whatever deal gets done keeps both sides from doing this again next time. it’s been clear, imo, for some time that games would be lost. what i don’t want is it being a bi-decade thing.
That would be a great idea. But neither side will agree to undercut their leverage.
And while we are at it, let’s increase the length of the CBA to 10 years like other sports. I think 5 years is too short a term.
MLB and the MLBPA brought in a mediator in ’94. The first suggestion from the mediator was to end free agency. Both sides — owners and players — admitted after that fact the mediation was a disaster.
The Union has to lower the amount of players that would be part of the pool they want created. 150 is too high and feels like participation trophy type stuff. If they can lower it to like 50 and also explain how this money is getting distributed then it would go a long way toward resolving this. Payroll limits can be bargained out if the Union concedes on something like this first. I don’t trust the owners but they both have to give or they both lose more than they want to.
Yeah, 150 makes it sound like a back-door minimum wage hike.
Of course, the players should be careful. Having a salary floor and a bonus system based on performance sounds like a pretty good idea for ALL the players, not just pre-arbitration.
MLB probably doesn’t care how many players get the money. Only how much total cash is their concern. How it’s distributed is irrelevant.
and, if we are honest, the PA can use union dudes to redistribute as they choose.
I have to wonder just how true that really is – and to what, if any, meaningfully significant extent it could matter – even if it is true. If it could only amount to some relative nickels and dimes, either practically or as a legal matter, then it wouldn’t really seem like much of a mitigating factor at all. But I’d like to know more about this – if there’s really any substance to it.
So, “if we are (being) honest”, what have you got for us (beyond just your own speculation, of course) on the subject? Honestly, I’d like to know, I’ve never heard of this.
So the players made the first large concession…
They haven’t made any.
Which concession was that? You may need to change your glasses.
I was being sarcastic.. lol
29 players down to 20
It was a joke. 😀
If only we could have a voice of reason
All you need to do is just log out of this account and log into that one. that’s pretty simple…
Brb
They are just too far apart on almost everything.. I can not imagine what goes on in these discussions. Why bother having them. The players already have about the same that NFL and NBA have, around 50 per cent of the revenue. I am firmly on the owners side… Lindor in the negotiations… There is a poster boy for how lucky the players are…
This isn’t correct. In baseball the players get roughly 42%, compared to 48% in other sports.
Are players in other leagues collectively worth more or less than baseball?
There is much more to the business of a sport than just the play on the field. The ability to manage a sport into demand with real dollars means being able to secure media, venue, and other IP contracts, getting stadia and other goodies from public coffers, and tons of other things players don’t do.
Why would we expect these relative values to be the same across all sports?
Excellent use of ‘stadia’ and not the common (and incorrect) ‘stadiums’
Ha, OK but:
noun. sta·di·um | \ ˈstā-dē-əm \ plural stadiums or stadia\ ˈstā-dē-ə
(The first is choice is generally the preferred choice.)
Not comparable!!! The MLB owners have to pay stadium workers, etc for 162 games which is almost 10 times the NFL for example.
This isn’t my shocked face.
F’ the MLB owners… The MLBPA should let the owners lock them out and have them lose billions… Sometimes a step back is two forward…
yeah im sure the low earning members of the union will be real big on that…
Yes being another year older as a free agent will be great. Almost as great as minor leaguers being able to get reps while I can’t so they can surpass me and take my job.
The “if I can’t be rich, than nobody should be rich” constituency has aWOKE and entered the fray.
Scott: You’ve just defined the very premise of the anti-capitalists, pro-democratic-socialist movement.
Who’s going to blink and when?
I would think you could start Price Is Righting the numbers to see where both sides can stand to sign on the dotted line, but apparently nobody wants to do that.
Frustrating to watch play out.
The world is melting down politically and economically and these chumps are fighting over millions upon millions of dollars. I hope they lose the entire 2022 season.
somehow I don’t think what’s going on in Ukraine is much relevant to a CBA debate in the US…
How’s your gas/petrol price over there ?
I know ours is through the roof and is effecting the disposal income that my mlb subscription would normally come out of. Good thing there is a lockout !
I’d be surprised if “economic uncertainty” hasn’t rated a mention from the billionaires.
Some of the comments on here are obviously coming from teenagers who care about nothing but their fantasy league draft and the new MLB video game edition
Multimillionaires want more millions.
As they should. I always want more money.
Plenty of great old games on youtube!
Hey, don’t give them ideas. They’ll be trying to take that away next. Not sure all those posts have the express written consent of Major League Baseball.
Heading down to the pharmacy to get my third refill of antidepressants
COVID got me used to missing things I liked and enjoyed. I’ll do without MLB.
Choke on your money.
The fans have to make it clear that they are going to make a serious conscious effort to spend less on MLB – less (or eliminate) spending on tickets, merchandise, their tv packages, even on MLB’s advertisers and sponsors if that’s what it takes. Send a clear signal that these proceedings have been a farce, and that we, collectively, choose to give MLB and their owners and players substantially less of our hard earned money.
MLB will call the fans bluff.
I think you have too low of an opinion of the resolve of certain fans. It’s not a bluff if people do it and I, for one, will be doing it. I’m sure others will do the same, especially if a substantial portion of the season is lost.
Some fans will stop watching sure. But MLB owners already have that figured out. They know the amount that it makes sense to give the players and what make sense to lose games and lose fans. They have a much longer view than just this season. And any lose of revenue can just be made up by paying the players less.
Guys, don’t expect baseball until June 1st at the earliest
Next week it may be time to introduce MiLBTR.
Try MiLBTV its awesome
Great article, Mark- thanks. Hold the line owners! And don’t give in anymore!! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!
The season could be cancelled and the country would hardly care or even notice and you also know that you could achieve a much better ROI with other investments. The players are already spoiled and treated great for playing a game with a stick and a ball and mittens 7-8 months per year. No more!!!
-1. Eat it.
Hold the line at $2.99
Signed up for the site just so I could mute your moronic comments.
What a great idea.
Stolt
Scrap the MLBPA; just bring up the minor league players and lets watch some baseball.
Eventually the younger players will come up and we can watch great talent again.
The MLBPA and their union can all sell sporting goods at the mall.
My heart doesn’t bleed for someone making $750,000 a year and whining that they don’t hit their full earning potential until they are 30! Join reality and the rest of the working world.
Let guys like Soto wanting $500 million and all of the $300 million and up guys give 5 million to a players pool; you will reach $100 million very quickly.
What’s the point of a very short service time so I can watch a guy come up to my team and then is gone in 2 years? I might as well buy jerseys that have replaceable numbers and names!
Hold the line owners; you are the ones that had to refund season tickets during COVID not the players!
Bring in the goobacks
Cano, you’ve really drunk the owners’ Kool-Aid.
gbs42
No; I have drunk reality; I am not biased to hate owners because of some Marxist belief. I don’t listen to the owners; I listen to arrogant players like Lindor and Soto who want guaranteed money for 10 years when they can’t even guarantee they will be able to play in 3!
That is why I got 7 likes to my post
Cano,
You can define your reality however you want. I don’t hate the owners, and I believe they are entitled to make a profit. I also think they’ll lie and hide revenues in order to maximize those profits.
No one is making teams give Lindor or Soto the money they’re asking for. That’s the free market at work. Players have to work up through the constrained labor system of the minors and six years in the majors to reach that point. That’s not the free market at work.
7 likes? Congratulations, I suppose.
gbs42
“No one is making teams give Lindor or Soto the money they’re asking for.”
Of course they are; the players are forcing the owners for a higher CBT or they will not sign a new CBA and play.
What do you call that?
I call it reality, no mine but everyone’s.
A higher CBT still doesn’t make teams spend to the CBT limit, nor does it give Lindor or Soto the amounts they’re asking for. Teams could give several players $10M per year. But teams have determined the very best players are worth investing premiums amount in.
The CBT was initially called sarcastically “The Yankee tax” because the Yankees were consistently the highest spending team on payrolls, well above every other franchise.
But through successive years of CBA’s, smaller increases in the thresholds and additional penalties, it has become a de facto salary cap for six or eight teams each season and the Yankees have managed to stay under the threshold.
One thing that has remained consistent is that the tax rate on the lowest threshold has never been more than 20 percent. MLB wants to increase that to 50 percent, then 75 and 100 percent at the higher thresholds. That’s not a real proposal. That’s not even intended to get to an agreement. That’s the same tactics over the same issue that led to the loss of the 1994 playoffs.
“What’s the point of a very short service time so I can watch a guy come up to my team and then is gone in 2 years? I might as well buy jerseys that have replaceable numbers and names!”
You might as well do that now.
Teams trade players too easily. They demote and promote too easily, and they don’t resign or extend players easily.
How many guys in the big leagues have ten and five rights?
oldoak33
You say it is like that now; how does that change my response; MLBPA will only make that worse?
Cano,
“Let guys like Soto wanting $500 million and all of the $300 million and up guys give 5 million to a players pool; you will reach $100 million very quickly.”
Why should the players pay other players instead of the owners paying the players?
gbs42
Players are the ones reaping the benefits and refusing to work if other players are not taking care of.
Name me one other business where owners are asked to pay other employees who are not worth their value to the organization.
No one is entitled.
Why should players get guaranteed money for 10 years when they can’t even perform for 3.
If players agree to a new CBA which does not leave the poorest teams perennial losers as the MLBPA wants so thier agents like Boras can make even more money and destroy the game.
“Name me one other business where owners are asked to pay other employees who are not worth their value to the organization.”
Lots of unions negotiate on behalf of all workers to get owners to pay everyone.
“No one is entitled.” As I said in another post, the players go through the minors and six (or nearly seven) years in the majors to have a chance at a free-market salary. That’s certainly not entitlement. And no one is forcing owners to sign these guys to $300M contracts.
MLB has had 11 different World Series winners in the last 14 seasons. That’s more competitive than the NFL, NBA, or NHL.
How many poor teams are perennial losers? Baltimore, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Kansas City, Oakland and other low-revenue teams have made the playoffs in the last several years. KC has a WS title and an AL pennant, TB has a pennant and is competitive nearly every year, Oakland is competitive most seasons.
The Phillies have the second-longest playoff drought in baseball, IIRC. The Mets were below .500 last year, as were the big-spending Padres.
gbs42
MLB has only been competitive because of revenue sharing and a low CBT with penalties for rich teams; that is what the MLBPA is trying to eliminate!!
“and six (or nearly seven) years in the majors to have a chance at a free-market salary. That’s certainly not entitlement.”
So a kid graduates college and has to wait a lot longer than 6 or seven years to earn his full potential; my heart bleeds. And they are not guaranteed of that in any business.
“And no one is forcing owners to sign these guys to $300M contracts.”
Players are forcing owners right now with their puppet master Agents by not signing a new CBA unless the CBT is raised.
Unions set a general average payroll and don’t have a large disparity in salary like MLBPA.
Unions are the ruin of this country and baseball. Just look at the national debt. Cities have to pay workers far beyond their means and now we are 30 trillion in debt. Union members like the teachers union are untouchable like baseball players with 10 year guaranteed contracts; they don’t have to play or teach!
Hold strong owners you can break these greedy bums!
Okay, you’ve gone off the rails now, so I’m done.
The Biden administration stepped into the negotiations today and got the owners to agree not to purchase any bats, balls, uniforms nor souvenirs from Russia. The White House announced that the players will get a special $1400 stimulus check to cover their expenses during the current lockout economic crisis. In exchange, both the owners and the players agreed not to get paid in rubles. ( hello, owners and players, let’s get serious already. It makes the rest of us sick because both of you would have nothing without us fans who are struggling to stay ahead of inflation. By summer no fan will be able to afford a ticket never mind drive to the game! )
Grow up.
Is this ever going to end..?..?
Players will cave in and ask union to settle a month or two of lost paychecks … how things typically end on these negotiations – richest man wins
Your probably right but this nonsense has left me in a spot that I never wanted to be in, I may have to look elsewhere for my baseball MiLB, College even little league in my area. I’m really going to have a hard time supporting MLB in any way.
My MLB subscription, my jersey purchases, and trips to the ballpark. I could never imagine myself without the enjoyment of MLB I’ve been a huge fan growing up in Detroit and played ball watched my Tigers for 45 years. But I’m going to have to draw the line at some point. Please come to an agreement without losing games.
You have to imagine the meeting room with the owners that are at very different positions for running their business. I can see the small market team owners saying no way can we agree to this without more support from the top markets owners and they are not going to reach into their wallets for more either. So strap in we will loose a third of the season before this gets traction.
Miss one game, and you might as well miss them all as far as I’m concerned, and yes I know, no one cares what I think. Owners lock them out on December 1st, then do nothing for several weeks. They are trying to ram a deal down the players throats. I hope they miss the whole season, and both sides go hungry.
With all the $hit happening in the world right now i have no sympathy for billionaire owners and millionaire players whatsoever. The fact you have supposedly the best negotiators on both sides and they still cant make a deal is a sad testament to both sides in the face of the changing landscape of society. People are finding different forms of entertainment and baseball as it is is falling way behind football and basketball as a sport people care about it. Between the steroids and blocking people to get into the hall of fame and the continous labor threats people are tired and alot will not care if it cancels regular season games
In other news, water is wet.
Every day there is substantial progress…in losing more and more fans.
I despise both sides. I’m talking bile rising in my throat disgust with greedy billionaires and millionaires.
Well, over 70% of the union aren’t millionaires. So…
Septuagenarian fan. Elated when my team won WS last year. I knew CBA conundrum would damper our game this year. My family has told me for years that I am too serious about baseball. I agree. Whenever these smartass dumbassess figure this Drama out I will tune in for Opening Day. Just don’t take too long.
This is an example of what is called “wisdom.”
Thank you for a little calming common sense.
This is insanity in action. Players are trying to make up for bad agreements in the past and the owners are trying to get another bad agreement done. Both sides need to get serious about resolving the issues. Meet in the middle of these issues
Owners are billionaires who won’t miss the revenue one bit. They’ll just lay off staff. Players making even league minimum should be ok for awhile. If you made 500k plus last year you could manage that well to live off of.
Again….it’s the fans….who’s left of them…getting bent over.
Billionaires will miss revenue. 500 k isn’t much for wasteful spending 20 year olds. Many of them have little or no service time so it’s not like they been making 500k for years.
I don’t think that these claims could be more inaccurate.
One thing that I haven’t heard much about is the potential for lost stats. With all the lost games in 2020 due to Covid and the lost stats for that season some players may fall short of milestones. For players like Mike Trout records will be harder to achieve in their career if they don’t play games.
Mike Trout would say it’s all about my teammates and the game. Person accolades aren’t important.
Mike Trout was a superstar for a long time (isn’t one anymore), but he never had a chance at breaking any of the major records. He’s not a superstar anymore and he will average 3-5 WAR of actual production for the next 3 years.
To be as specific as possible, an average of 4 WAR per year for the next 3 years. In terms of breaking records, even in the most optimal realistic scenario (won’t be happening anymore given his decline in durability, fielding, and base stealing- the only thing he’s good at now is batting), he was never going to finish with more than around 600 HRs, 350 SB, .400 OBP, 3,000 hits, 115 WAR. He never had any chance at breaking any major records.
Mike Trout isn’t a superstar?
You were picked on in High School by jocks, or Timmy the ball player stole your girlfriend in HS and you haven’t let it go.
Right, go with an idiotic personal attack, right… I said he was a superstar for a long time but isn’t one anymore. His last superstar season was 3 years ago (he wasn’t playing at a superstar pace in 2020 either. He’s now a soon to be 31 year old who hasn’t been a superstar since 2019 and whose only notable skill is batting (when he’s actually on the field). He’s now a liability with the glove, no longer steals bases, and is no longer durable- and with the latest injury, the speed in general may be much worse than it recently was. At the minimum, he’s going to be a lot more conservative with general base running (in addition to already no longer being a base stealer) out of concern for re-injury. He’s roughly a 4 war player at this point. Definitely no longer a superstar.
Mike Trout is the best player in the big leagues.
His aggregate body of work, when combined with what he’s done in the past five years, isn’t on the same planet as anyone else.
It’s not even close.
Mike Trout is a superstar.
That excuse probably wouldn’t be a very good one since some of the very best, DiMaggio, Mays, Berra, Musial, Williams, etc, served in the military and lost stats for service to our country. I don’t think the two are comparable. One is completely honorable and selfless while the other is not. Trout is smart enough to know and understand the difference.
Trout became a Hall of Famer the first day of his 10th season. Now it’s just a matter of where he’ll rank among the all-time greats.
Crazy to think what your definition is of a super star; Trout is one of the greats in the game and will barring any strange setback be in the HOF.
To me that is the games definition of a Super Star long term.
Making the All Star game is another in the short term.
I think he easily meets both standards
Lucky for the owners the public pays for most of their stadiums.
Not having a mortgage payment makes it easier to deal with the lost revenue of locking out the players.
So, that was nice of us.
This is what us fans need to be looking at…among other things.
Why are fans supporting either side? Neither side is giving the majority of us fans what we want. Neither side is fighting for us fans. If they were, they would’ve solved all this decades ago when they saw all the problems that arose in the disparity between markets.
I don’t get it either. Unless you have a financial interest or something. If there is never another mlb game again it wouldn’t bother me at all. Lots of other things to do.
You know, the one thing that it seems that both sides aren’t aware that the world has far more activities and forms of entertainment than it used to. They seem to not realize that every second they continue to mess with this, younger prospective fans continue to look for entertainment elsewhere and sports elsewhere. MLB players aren’t as much as standout stars as they used to be. the NFL and NBA stars have surpassed them in popularity, especially amongst younger fans. Many of the markets that MLB fails in, the NFL and NBA succeed in…thus those sports taking away consumer dollars away from MLB.
MLB and MLBPA, get a clue. Keep this up, and you’ll be falling further behind in sports status.
I don’t know about you, but I want my favorite team to not tank on purpose just to get a good draft pick.
What teams are tanking for a draft pick?
Doesn’t matter if my team is in the WS, or picking in the top 3. Whoever they draft in the first round almost never pans out. Even with that being said, this lottery ranking the MLBPA proposed today is a joke.
I think MLB teams tank just to save money. They make the calculation that given the state of their current talent, they cannot afford to invest what would be required to make their team competitive, so they refrain from bidding on free agents and sell off what they can for lower-priced prospects. The draft picks are secondary. Unlike in other sports, the MLB draft is much more of a crap shoot, and even when there might be a player in the draft who is considered “can’t miss,” it is rare that a single player can turn around a MLB franchise. A draft lottery won’t prevent tanking.
This all needs to be resolved tomorrow… the lockout end date I picked in the contest. Oh well.
If we can get @MetsFan22 to predict that it won’t be solved by tomorrow morning, we will wake up tomorrow to a new agreed upon deal that they both sign for 20 years.
Where are MetsFan22’s predictions when we need them!?
Anybody who’s in a labor union themself has a better understanding of what is actually going on here:
Yes, the players make a lot of money; and the owners make MORE; all the while doing absolutely everything they can to exploit the players, us and our communities.
I know it sucks; I’m super bummed about my opening day tickets, but I’m not about to dog the players for taking advantage of this rare opportunity to shake some trees and make some stuff happen.
Rise up, union brothers!!
I’ve been in a union and I’m a business owner since I left working for others. Neither side is right with this. No fan should be supporting either side.
You’ve made your take very clear my man all over this page
I lean on the side of the players, but they are not blameless either. It’s a 162 game season, and if it becomes 152 or 142, I’ll cope. I’d rather see these guys pound something out they are willing to live with then come up with a stopgap that leaves both sides spoiling for more fights. As a preference, though, I really wish the owners would seriously consider competitiveness and tanking. No excuse having teams that just don’t care.
If both sides agree to a Cap&Floor system, it addresses those issues. Competitiveness is not solely on the owners. Both sides are at fault for that part.
I think a cap and floor would go a long way to address competitive balance and teams that refuse to spend. I am pulling for competitive balance and keeping prices down for fans. I think the owners care more about competitive balance at this point. Not sure if anyone cares about the fans.
So lets have a $200m cap and a $190m floor. Just like football.
Yes! Sign me up. Everyone gets paid, the quality veterans can find a job, and every market can succeed or fail based upon wisdom and talent and not just who has the bigger TV contract. This is the answer.
The owners and players both say they want to play a full season. Their offers to each other say otherwise. What’s the point of all these meetings if they can’t/won’t compromise on literally anything?
The first side that gives anything significant will get taken advantage of by the other.
“Oh, that’s great, now let’s meet in the middle of your latest proposal and ours.”
And that means ~3/4 of the way towards the more patient side’s goals.
This isn’t ending any time soon. Thank god there’s always video games and we’re smack dab in the middle of some great games coming out!
Maybe I’m a bit optimistic or pie in the sky, but I know that after covid and the 94 no World Series season debacle that took the McGuire/Sosa legendary HR battle of 98 to bring them back, they have to realize that both are on very thin ice here with the fans.
I feel that they’ll get it done in time.
This is how I have felt this entire time. The recent “deadline” announcement and the reports of how incredibly far apart they still are now have me feeling otherwise.
Let’s hope your sentiment is correct!
Especially after the covid $$$$ loses by both owners and the players, they cannot be that stupid…. can they?
They got this far into this mess, didnt they? So yes they r among the dumbest millionaire and billionaires in the world!!!
On Monday, the owners and the players will finally agree to a new CBA and end the lockout after 89 days, so the permanent rule changes under a new deal will include the universal DH, 4 teams qualifying for a draft lottery, the 14-team playoff format, a CBT threshold increasing to $217 million, the elimination of compensatory draft picks and qualifying offers, the pre-arbitration bonus pool of $20 million, a free agency period of 5 years and a collective salary arbitration of $1 billion.
Dream on!! That must be good stuff u’re smoking!!
I don’t smoke, you moron.
That sounds reasonable considering that’s if they compromised and they will have to……….eventually. And that’s what makes this all a giant waste of time. They both have to know they’ll meet in the middle on some issues and others they may have to forget. We’ll drop this if you give up that, for example.
Watching what is going on right now in the world, this argument seems more pointless than ever.
How about this … the Owners and Union agree to modest changes (bump minimum salary and luxury tax 7%/year, expand to 12 team playoffs, and install the universal DH). Have the CBA go for 2 years. Get back to work. Minor wins for both and you only have live under these compromises for 2 years. Hopefully, the Union and Owners take the two years to work through the more complicated issues and prevent a work stoppage in 2024.
Having billionaires fighting with millionaires over a game with a ball and stick just feels gross right now. We should be coming together and uniting, not bickering over how the 0.1% distribute their earnings.
If they only reach a 2-year agreement, we’ll be right back where we are now in 2 years.
“It’s their fault.” – MLB
“It’s their fault.” – MLBPA
“No, it’s their fault.” – MLB
“No, it’s their fault.” – MLBPA
“No,really, it’s their fault.” – MLB
“No, really it’s their fault.” – MLBPA
So be player salaries have DOUBLED since 2003? Well owner’s income has DOUBLED in the past ten years. This is all about owner greed, their ‘offer’ on the spending cap is a 1 PERCENT increase annually while their income is going up at 10 PERCENT. Do the math. The players are getting screwed and that is why there should be a long work stoppage. F the owners.
This is more than just the owners and baseball players.
This is a massive labor union standing up to financial moguls who are looking to exploit for profit at every twist and turn.
If what MLB players get compensated is “exploiting”, I want to be exploited!
Train from age 3 or 4; and be born with a natural athletic ability – toil in the minor leagues for 3 or 4 years for $10k a summer, riding a bus for 30 hours a week – and be one of the best of the best of the best – then maybe you can have a shot to make $3k per game for the games you are active on the MLB roster for 20 games a year to get sent back down to AAA making $70 per game.
$18/hr is ~$37,000/yr
I wish the MLBPA would take on the minor league players in the union as well, so they can get better pay and representation.
I must have missed the part where they were being forced to do this against their will.
Right on stymeedone;
Poor players who are guaranteed $750,000 minimum salary; not minimum wage. Please exploit me like that!
All of these Marxists who hate the billionaire owners don’t understand.
Look at the Braves public earnings; stock holders would never invest in companies like this in general; that is why there are only a few outliers in sports like the Braves.
If it wasn’t for billionaire owners who made their money elsewhere in profitable business ventures we would not have sports teams as they are because now they are just hobbies and toys of the billionaires.
So suck it up and deal with it; its their game.
LOL at thinking the players are getting screwed for being compensated millions of dollars for playing a game
Tbh lets just get it over with and skip cancelling games day by day and just jump right to cancelling the season bc that is where this is headed imho and once that happens, the future of MLB is general is highly doubtful….on the heels of a pandemic fed fanless season, this is a result that is imho unfathomable
So apparently the owners have said “they are out of ideas”.
That’s ironic considering they’ve yet to offer one.
That caught my eye too. I think out of ideas means they have pretty much proposed the best they are going to propose at this point. That is certainly an interesting way to say it.
Big surprise lol
The players idea on draft order and competitiveness may not be entirely practical, but it’s a start at one angle on competitiveness. Tanking is detrimental to the package we fans see.. How many of us have been frustrated by the team we root for going into September with either no chance at all, or one of our playoff=possible competitors with a four game series against a team that isn’t even trying? And how many rosters are going to be populated by mostly pre-arb players because they are cheap. How many players are optioned up and down 6-8 times a year, just so they don’t have to be paid even a MLB minimum? Constant roster manipulation to keep salary (and salary potential) hurts the game, leads to an inferior product. The owners don’t care, but they ought to.
How about the two sides take seriously the issue of a country that is distracted by ugly politics and a nasty, scary war abroad, and consider sitting down and not getting up until the basic outlines of a deal are hammered out? The country needs a break. A little baseball would help the national mood.
You’d think the idiots would say, “hell, there’s a war going on, we’re close enough let’s sign and give Americans something to look forward to.”
I do look forward. To the NCAA TOURNEY, NBA playoffs, NFL Draft, NFL Season, and not worrying about paying insane $$$ for a 4 hour game or crowning another 40% Champion like the 2020 season
Yeah I’m sure with the war going on, one to which it appears that we are more inextricably linked, it’s incredible to see the NFL & NBA taking a knee during the National Anthem while people are righting worldwide and dying for them.
Great, honorable sports figures to watch.
You’d think ….. but they don’t.
Even when they do come to an agreement, it will be like a 2020 all over again with a shortened season and a lot of players getting hurt, etc.
Why don’t they just “settle” for like 2 years and revisit the topics later? Do they really have to lock this down for a long period of time?
Tell me you guys aren’t this stupid. Arguing on the margins when the sport will take a beating and you’ll all lose a ton of money.
They’re arguing on the margins because that’s the owners playbook. Start with a lockout, then don’t make a proposal for six weeks, then only make marginal adjustments to any proposals so there’s no progress, and then threaten the players with lost games and pay when there’s little progress. We’re at this point because this is the point the owners wanted to bring the players to hoping they’d cave. They’re not caving.
Blah blah blah, every friggin’ day. I’d rather hear Alex Lifeson’s Hall of Fame speech…at least that was fun.
If it’s not the Mets wasting another year of Degrom it’s this lockout crap.
This “lockout” is pathetic. Truly pathetic. Lots of great NCAA baseball underway. I love baseball and I can easily do without MLB.
You access any of those channels for streaming, 30Parks?
Based of your tip, Clipper, I’ve been streaming the games on the respective college radio outlets. I’m old school, love baseball on the radio. Really enjoying the rooted nature of NCAA baseball – refreshing. Appreciate the heads-up.
Sure, I’m glad it panned out! That’s really cool. I’m considering attaching ESPN+ to the kids’ Disney + so I have access to more collegiate games as well now. I’m really interested to see TX, TN, Ole Miss, Vanderbilt & my real faves, – Fla Gators & Penn St.
Sounds like they’re trying to change everything. Just work on those 4 key issues and lift the lockout!!
The owners lock out the players in December, basically don’t negotiate for two months, and now say if a deal isn’t reached by Monday, they will cancel games and dock the players pay? Cant imagine why the players are skeptical.
One less thing we can squander our hard earned money on.
So the MLBPA sold 9 players down the river?
I’ve always thought there would be a deal because both sides can’t be that stupid. You have a two year pandemic which is still raging on, a Russian invasion of Ukraine, inflation out of control and these billionaires can’t come to an agreement with these millionaires! Unbelievable!!
I’m a lifelong baseball fan but I will tell you…as far as I’m concerned if there isn’t an agreement in place by March 1st I’m perfectly fine with getting my baseball fix by turning my attention to Minor League ball.
MLB pays their players terribly compared to other major pro sports, especially considering the length of the season and number of games played, not to mention compensation at the minor league level.
MLB 81 home games, plus 4 weeks of Spring Training Games, plus up to 4 weeks of playoffs ~68 million tickets sold
NBA 41 home games ~22 million tickets sold
NHL 41 home games ~19 million tickets sold
NFL 8 home games ~17 million tickets sold
You can’t be serious telling me the sport that outsells the other three major sports combined in annual ticket sales can’t compensate their players at all levels better than they do?
Something smells bad and its the MLB ownership abusing the players.
Do other sports have to put out as much? I’m asking because I don’t know.
# of tickets sold is irrelevant. Despite complaints about the price of baseball tickets, they are far more affordable than the other sports. Total league revenue for the NFL is 50% higher than MLB. I’m not sure how # of tickets sold relates to increase in player compensation.
More relevant would be player compensation per sport as a percent of league revenue. Let me know when you come up with that figure.
Please abuse me like that; Please…
Poor guys, if the season is delayed, they might need to find a regular job to support their family. Go Owners!
“Sir, I’m sorry to bother you again, but I just wanted to ask, could I rub your feet again? Sure, I’ll wash you car if I get to rub your feet. Thanks, Boss!”
Josh, I’ve answered your add many times on here and yes, you may.
If he rubs your feet, Clipper, can I get the car wash he promised as well? I’ve got a lot of road salt to get off my car!
Question…what role if any does insurance policies have here? if reg season games are lost do players have legitimate income insurance claims? do teams (owners) have insurance policies on TV rights deals??
i am beyond angry about this i do not want to miss any baseball the way it is going the whole season could be canceled
Accurate assessment bronyar. Add in that many prospects & NRIs are in camp preparing to compete for MLB jobs when a new CBA is agreed to while MLBPA members are locked out & the scale tips towards the owners. Just a matter of time until the enough “marginable” players realize this and call for the union to settle.
The owners get taxpayers to pay for their stadiums and don’t pay personal taxes themselves and their toadies say…
“They are the ones taking the risk!”
taxpayers get more back over the long haul than paid for stadiums
Trust me every single thing in baseball is taxed
We all know that at least half the people that say they will boycott baseball if they miss games are full of it because they like baseball enough to comment here. However, I am starting to believe that there may be a larger exodus than I first thought and if this thing drags on much longer the loss of fans will be enough to hurt the sport. I wonder how much stock ownership puts in that possibility? I wonder if it’s even really on their radar. I wonder what the projections look like and if they’re constantly checking the pulse and adjusting those projections. You have to assume they have someone on that.
I think many people say that in expression of how they feel, obviously. It’s similar to saying, “I’ll do x too that person ..” out of anger, but one usually doesn’t. I can say, after ‘94, I abstained from baseball for years. I did mis the magical ‘96 & ‘97 seasons because of my decision. I admit, I watched the playoffs & subsequent World Series, but nothing else. And I completely missed ‘95.
Granted, many people don’t do this, but some do. It boils down to the importance of this in one’s life and how one prioritizes it.
Service time starts when the player is added to the 40 Man Roster. If you’re good enough to make the 40, you’re good enough to accrue service time.
This stops the nonsense of leaving top prospects in AAA at the beginning of the season in order to manipulate service time.
To be honest I feel like many of the players have made so much money over the last handful of years that they really don’t care if there’s a season or not. Yes I believe many are that selfish. Look how many guys are happy sitting on the IL for long stretches year after year. These are not players of old who want to play everyday in fact I’d say the opposite is true. Minor sprains and bruises keep many of these guys on the IL for extended stays. Mental health days for guys who work about half of every year. MLB players have for the most part become soft and whether fans want to admit it or not it’s true. I hate to keep saying it but Mike Trout, the highest paid player in MLB sat out for almost the entire season last year for a strained calf. Just look at the numbers they don’t lie. Compare IL numbers from now to even a decade ago and it’s crazy. This is a sport that’s not very physically demanding compared to other sports not even close yet the injury lists are packed constantly. I say F the players if you want more money in the game then earn it someplace else and buy your own team or shut up and play for the millions you already make. Owners are owners and players are players. Employers and employees, get it?
How about teams get reimbursed for all of those players that sit out because they were injured? Why pay for two years of TJ surgery rehab. Let them rehab on their own dime or let the union pay them. Like you I am tried of players tanking the season on IL with a calf bruise. Fully guaranteed contracts have killed this league.
Certain injuries obviously are different. Tears and broken bones incurred while working should always be taken 100% seriously and the player should be taken care of but man the bruised fingers, thumbs, and toes are suspect. Then there’s the dreaded oblique which is all the rage. I’ve always been a big proponent of being paid what you’re worth, but ten year deals holding teams hostage when a guy’s play goes drastically south is crazy. No player should get more than four years otherwise it’s killing the sport. How many teams and fans of teams have found themselves stuck with a guy who was amazing someplace else until they signed him to an eight year deal for $180 million or whatever? Then he’s hurt and might have one or two good years but otherwise is just the guy who stunk up the bathroom every day for eight years? Now maybe that team can’t quite compete because they have some bad salaries on the books which makes it impossible to make serious moves. All I know is I saw a bunch of empty parks last year and it’s not like many of these owners became billionaires off of their team they were billionaires who bought teams for some cash on the side or are just fans of the team(Robert Kraft) so they buy it. There’s money to be made but it’s not what some fans think. Unless you’re the Yankees, Dodgers, or Dallas Cowboys you’re not printing money.
Mystery Team
Spot on!
Its not time to negotiate “lottery” and all this other stuff. Start the season, go with what was in place last year, and discuss this stuff during the season and in next years off season. The people want baseball.
The previous CBA wasn’t satisfying to both sides, so at some point this dispute was going to happen. This is just the expected time for it to happen.
Why do both sides make everything so complicated? Simplify! The first non-playoff team (18th worst) gets one lottery ticket. The 17th worst team gets 2 tickets., and so on until the very worst team gets 18 tickets. Tanking to the very bottom gets you a 10% chance of winning the lottery, pretty much removing the reward for finishing last. Losing 4-5 more games would probably increase your odds maybe one or two percentage points. And it is simple…no randomly-chosen percentages!
Obviously these percentages were not randomly chosen. They’re just a bit more complicated than yours.
I want to deter tanking too, but I am really just not a big fan of an extensive lottery system for the draft. I just don’t trust it.
I don’t think tanking in baseball is anywhere near as bad as in the other 3 sports.
1. Lots of bottom dwellers play games vs playoff contenders in September and as far as I can tell, for the good of the game, they give it a go. They owe it to the game. Crummy teams compete. Yes, they do get a free ride getting a looksee at prospects that contenders can’t often afford to do. Still…they play to win when the Yankees or Dodgers come to town.
2. 1st round draft picks rarely play in the bigs for 1-2 years, often longer. Football and basketball top picks frequently play right away. Hockey picks usually make it before baseball 1st rounders.
3. It almost doesn’t matter where you pick in the 1st round, a team almost always gets a guy who will play in the majors at some point. Of course, the top 10 are better, but even the 25th pick in the draft makes it at some point.
4. After the 1st round and supplemental picks, 2nd round on down is pretty much the luck of the draw. Lots of 3rd, 4th-8th rounders and the occasional 20th rounder makes it. Many don’t .Mike Piazza anyone?
I don’t get the hang up over tanking and the draft. In baseball it’s a long road between the draft and when your team competes.
This issue should be the least of their problems.
The term “tanking” doesn’t seem to have the same definition for everyone.
If it means not spending in order to get a better draft pick in order to build a winner down the road, that’s one thing. To others, it just means not making an effort to win and not spending on player salaries.
The players are concerned about spending on salaries, period. I agree that focusing efforts on a draft lottery are badly misplaced. They need to have a salary floor, but they have a knee jerk reaction because they see it as the flip side of a salary cap. They could argue that revenue sharing should be spent on salaries instead of the weak language in the past CBA, but they just want a blanket reduction in revenue sharing.
Poor negotiating, IMO.
MLB negotiators are “out of ideas.” How about this: make a reasonable proposal.
Owners: We don’t want to increase the CBT by any significant amount, and we want penalties to be so punitive teams will rarely exceed it, essentially giving us a cap. And we won’t have a floor. The result: less spending on players.
We’ll increase the minimum salary at a lower rate than inflation. With more and more players making the minimum, the result: less spending on players.
We’ll provide $20M for the pre-arb bonus pool, under $0.7M per team. The result: a little more spending on players.
We want a 14-team playoff, which will bring in a few hundred million dollars per season.
In summary, owners want another ~$15M per team in revenue and are willing to put maybe 10% of that towards player salaries.
Agreed man. I just got done watching Moneyball, good baseball movie for those who haven’t seen it, and I was struck by a convo BB and his owner had in the beginning of the movie. In a nutshell, the owner scoffed at giving him anymore money cause he can’t afford it. I thought to myself, then why own it? Why own the team? If u can’t afford to run it like an average payroll franchise, sell. As a Mets fan watching the Wilpons spend some but not much cause of Madoff, sell. These teams are worth billions. If you can’t afford to run it, sell it to someone who can. That goes for the owners of the Rays, Guardians, Twins, and all these smaller market teams that want to put a cap on salaries so the teams willing to spend like my Mets, Yankees, Cards, Nats, Dodgers, etc can’t use their advantages. If you can’t afford to play with the big boys, I don’t care about the market, don’t buy a team because u want to make money with it. You buy it cause ur so damn rich you want to show ur other uber rich buddies I own a franchise. If you are buying an MLB team to make a profit your in the wrong business. Steve Cohen made his money in the stock market not by owning another MLB franchise. It’s like I finally have an owner willing to spend, and the poor billionaire owners of the other teams are crying. Get over it or sell your team to another rich pain in the butt.
gbs42
The Agents are pulling the strings of the puppets in the MLBPA.
They are the ones who benefit by a higher CBT.
Yeah lets not have any CBT or Cap so the same 4 teams are in the playoffs every year; oh boy that will be great for the game.
Somehow the poor mistreated players who are guaranteed and paid a salary for 10 years long after they can’t even play or perform; who else in business has that deal!!
My heart bleeds for minimum salaries like were talking about minimum wage of the average worker. What a hardship for a player to only make $750,000
Owners take all the risk; they had to refund season ticket holders during COVID. The players take no risk but just want everything guaranteed in their fantasy lives.
Maybe the dirtbags should of been negotiating since December instead of waiting until this week. Just a thought.
Anybody know what channel the Spring Training games are on today?
Every conversation on this talks payroll, salaries, and revenue. None mention costs. The books are closed. That’s not going to change for non-public companies. Every mention of profit is guesswork. I know that while cities still pick up costs for new stadiums, its now on the ownership to pay for the stadiums while the city pays the infrastructure costs. Unlike other sports, teams have to cover costs for a substantial minor league development system. I know all my costs have gone up. None of the proposals by the union have them accepting any of the risk. To predict revenues of a sport with declining attendance and TV viewership will only go up in the future is rather disingenuous. The union should work to get their raise, but if they want a share of the industry, they need to invest in the industry which requires sharing the risk.
It is not too difficult to construct a good estimate of your favorite teams financials using publicly available information. I have done that for the Mariners. They have about $260 million in revenues and over $200 million in expenses. A good share of their expenses is for the 240 non-player employees they have and stadium costs. Their is no reserve being created to replace their stadium in 30 years. The minor league teams, per public reports, cost between $10-15 million each. Coaches and minor league stadiums have to be paid for. Expanding their player payroll will leave little profit, if any. It is an expensive business but the players don’t care about any of that. They don’t care that they are screwing the minor leaguers. or the taxpayer that is funding half their play pen.
AllenBob – The expense side is more transparent than the revenue side. On the expense side you have players, staff, stadium costs, and probably some miscellaneous agreements. Probably all publicly available. But the revenue side – not only ticket revenue, concession share, TV/revenue share, merchandising share, and other agreements the team makes to allow use of logo/name. Just curious what your $260M figure includes, I’m pretty sure if you have $200M in expense you probably hit about all of them.
As I’ve put in several threads, if not ridiculously profitable, there wouldn’t be rich guys clamoring to be owners, the books would be open with presentations highlighting where they are bleeding money, and there would be 5 owners dying to sell right now.
Have you considered the possibility that it’s actually somewhere in the middle of “ridiculously profitable” and “bleeding money” ?
Like, somewhere around, “It’s profitability is Ok for something that I have a passion for” ?
Would that not explain the reason why it’s a popular pursuit for billionaires, but also something they are not too keen on changing the status quo ?
Yep.
“We deserve X % of revenue !”
“Ok. Sure. After you pay me Y % of the operating costs. Alternatively, you can ignore the revenue and the operating costs, and I’ll pay you a fair salary for the work you do.”
Gotta love these greed vs greed battles with no concern for the people (fans) that are gonna have to pay for it
I agree, but really, is it any different than any other industry’s labor negotiations? When, for example, a car manufacturer negotiates with UAW, does either side really give a damn about the effect of their negotiations on auto consumers? Do they care whether stalled negotiations will result in cars being temporarily unavailable, or whether cars will become more expensive?
Those folks in charge of the game, spend much effort, time, thought, resources, studies etc., in trying to figure out ways to speed up the game to make it increasingly palatable to the casual as well as the die-hard fans. Here’s my 2 cents worth. Speed up the damn negotiations, and lets get back to holding the attention to all of us before it’s too late.
MLB and MLBPA are negotiating in two different languages. The rich and non rich owners speak different languages… The rich and the non rich players speak two different languages.
This negotiation is so hopeless one has to laugh and wonder why they are even talking. The talking can only be for show… The sides are miles apart and every day they move one foot closer if that..
It’s going to come down to a 32 team playoff bracket. Best of 3 until there are 8 teams. Then it goes best of 5 before going to best of 7 with 4 teams and championship final. In a month of MLB baseball. Because the way things look, the season is not going to start. Owners care about the playoffs and will want them to get some sort of revenue.
They haven’t even talked the CBT part yet, except for the very early concession from MLB. They are definitely axing games at this point.
Nothing that the owners have proposed regarding the CBT could remotely be deemed a concession. They are proposing an even harder de facto salary cap. Until that proposal is scrapped, there will be no baseball and the players are absolutely right to not negotiate it.
Likewise, the owners are right to not negotiate a reduction in revenue sharing.
These are complete non starters not intended to lead to agreement and they need to be dropped forthwith.
I get the concept of removing the consecutive losing seasons thing because some teams just have a hard time getting out of the basement – look at the giants before last year they had a number consecutive losing seasons and weren’t tanking – doing the opposite. I think you could resolve it though by doing something where you say that if you have a losing season ad fail to address it through promotion and trade and create a threshold you can at least force a team to be mildly competitive. you do have to assume that half the league will have losing seasons because how can all of the teams have winning records?
Looking for a victory after several “not so great” CBAs (according to “scorekeepers), the MLBPA set their sights very high this year. Extraordinarily high.
Even if the Teams had compromised at 50% it would still have been a victory.
The Teams are not going to budge.
Run by “business types” (with Owners to please), they can calculate the profitability “bottom line” and aren’t anxious to bank roll the poorer teams much more than they do now (which is not a small number and some of the bottom dwellers shift stuff and don’t invest it all in the rosters).
It would actually be a victory for the Players if the Teams moved 15% in their direction but it would be panned as a colossal loss.
This is not going to end well: Come March 31, beginning in New York, Pittsburgh, and Cleveland, players won’t be getting their millions (or for the “poor” players their $600,000/year).
Oh well, the weather ain’t so great back East in March.
FWIW, After Wednesday’s negotiations, “a league spokesperson told reporters per Hannah Keyser of Yahoo! Sports) that regular season games would be canceled if no CBA is in place by Monday. The league said it has no plans to make possible missed games up at a later date and noted that players would not have the opportunity to recoup lost game checks in that event.
MLB also doesn’t intend to rearrange the schedule in the event games are scrapped. If the regular season were delayed but an agreement was eventually reached, the league would simply pick up where the current schedule dictates whenever games begin.
They need an arbitrator. Neither side is bargaining in good faith. Both sides need new leadership.
Wish they’d stop playing chicken and start actual negotiations.
I think it is a safe bet that at least a month or two of the season will be lost. Maybe more.
You wonder what goes on in each individual room. I think the owners are united in one sense: greed and maximizing profits. But they are divided because there are rich owners and poor owners, big markets and small markets. There are teams that don’t mind spending for players but don’t want to revenue share with some teams that don’t want to spend at all, etc. If I’m the Yankees and Red Sox, do I really want to give more money to the Rays – who directly compete – and the Orioles? Creating a hard salary cap – I’m with owners here – but also a floor, and having those move up in line with percentage revenue growth each year and not arbitrary figures that are provided.
Also, a 14 team playoff doesn’t make sense with the division format and an unbalanced schedule. Why is baseball still holding onto divisions? Just have an eastern and western conference and balance the schedule.
I have sympathy for no one except fans who just want to watch games, especially kids. Kind of tough to keep kids’ attention in a sport where the average fan age is already 58 and you’ve got NHL and NBA playoffs, NFL combine and draft. coming up. Until I see open team books, I will remain less disgusted at the players than the owners.
The players want to cash in on the financial success of MLB.
Owners want to give them a net zero. Everything MLB proposes either is offset by something elsewhere or has a net zero cost to owners.
It’s easy to get stuck on some of the more outlandish proposals that will have to go away before there is an agreement.
Social media is particularly unkind to owners who deploy tactics of stalling to gain leverage, and it doesn’t work. Then players get hit with thoughtless “both sides” frustration.
I suspect that the players aren’t stuck on a blanket reduction of revenue sharing, but they’re not giving it up for nothing.
Hopefully, Manfred let the cat out of the bag when he said that the CBT tax rates remain unchanged in the owners’ proposal, before MLB quickly issued a retraction saying that he “mis spoke”.
Players have already cashed in on the financial success of MLB!
Just ask guys like Lindor who is GUARANTEED money for 10 years when he is already in decline.
It is the agents who are pulling the MLBPA strings; they want no CAP or CBT so we can all watch the same 4 teams in the playoffs every year and the agents get a big cut when guys like Soto want a half a billion dollar contract!
Boy I wish my net zero from MLB was a minimum salary of $750,000 a year and guaranteed money when I sign it big.
Owners take all the risk and the players take none but somehow like anything else players are somehow entitled to a half a billion dollars when we as fans have to watch them bat .230 in decline.
Some players at the top of the pay scale are cashing in, but revenues have soared while the average salary declined every year under the past CBA, and median salary declined by over 30%. So no, players have not cashed in, on the aggregate.
” they want no CAP or CBT” Who has proposed this, other than you? Nobody. In fact the last CBA specifically states that the CBT expires at the end of the agreement and there will be no CBT. Yet the players propose keeping the CBT with the same tax rates as in the last CBA.
Owners take ALL the risk? That’s absurd. Players spend their entire lives playing baseball, being drafted and held captive by one organization, no choice of another team, no leverage to bargain for a market rate salary until they spend up to five years in the minors and six years in MLB only to have their service time manipulated. Only then can they cash in, and only with an owner willing to pay them. Nobody forces the owners to sign a ten year contract. THAT risk is their own choice.
MLBPA want to raise the CBT; the average worker in this country works a lot longer than 6 years in their profession and are not guaranteed or entitled to a “cut” of the billion dollar companies they work for.
“while the average salary declined every year” with a minimum salary of $750,000 a year oh my heart bleeds.
Have top players cashing in pay to a pool if they are that concerned about other players.
The minimum salary was $570,500. That was negotiated with a cost of living adjustment in the last two years.
Baseball players are not average workers. Baseball is an entertainment industry and the players are the entertainers. They are right to demand a share of increasing revenues.
…and the owners are right to say no
Atlanta Braves: 2021 earnings, reporting $568MM in total Braves revenue and a $20MM operating income. This on an entity worth 1.875 billion U.S. dollars.
That’s a terrible return — barely 1%.
Make more money with T-bills!
Return on the investment is the current value of the franchise minus what the owners paid for the franchise.
Return on investment on an annual basis is the profit divided by the expenses, which should be a positive number except in 2020. They show very little detail on expenses, but the Braves probably have significant stadium debt that is relatively new.
A bunch of clowns are running the circus.
Who cares if they ever comeback it is a poor product they have been putting out the last few years.Neither side lives in the real world.They could careless about the fans.F—em both.Shut down the season now and do us all a favor.
no one cares anymore.
Clark was a better o,Ayer than negotiator, and he was a lousy player.
My understanding of a negotiation is both sides “give” something to get what they want.
The players said they wanted earlier free agency, earlier arbitration, higher minimum salaries, less revenue sharing, lower CBT, a lottery to reduce tanking, etc.,…
The owners said they want expanded playoffs.
Both sides seem to want the universal DH (though not this fan).
The owners seem willing to give on the subjects of minimum salary, the lottery, the CBT and to some degree, the pre-arb players, though not yet to the extent that the players want.
Perhaps I’ve missed it, but can someone explain what the players are offering to get what they want?
The players haven’t gotten earlier free agency and have given up on that.
They haven’t gotten earlier arbitration, but are whittling that down with no response from owners.
They will have to give up a cut in revenue sharing which was a bad idea to begin with.
They want higher minimum salaries, but owners proposal is on par with inflation so there’s no increase in real dollars.
The owners proposal on the CBT is not an increase at all. It’s a draconian proposal for a harder de facto salary cap. To suggest that’s an improvement for them is absurd.
Owners see the $20 million they’ve offered in a draft bonus pool as a way of buying out the issue of arbitration eligibility while players see it as an offset to anything less than 2.0 years eligible.
Players have agreed to expanded playoffs, advertising patches on uniforms, the same CBT tax rates as in 2021, and they’ve given up on their proposals for free agency and will abandon the revenue sharing idea.
All they’ve really gained is a draft lottery, DH, and $20 million in bonus pool money.
To my knowledge, the players have not agreed to the same CBT as in 2021, and “giving up” on earlier proposals like free agency and revenue sharing is not a “give.’ on their part.
The MLBPA’s CBT proposal is basically the same as the previous CBT in real inflation-adjusted dollars, and I don’t believe they’d asked for any loosening of the overage penalties.
We fans should lock both of them out