7:19PM: The MLBPA and the league have agreed to resume talks at noon CT on Sunday, according to multiple reports.
4:39PM: Today’s negotiating sessions between the league and the MLB Players Association have concluded for the day, after a pair of separate meetings between the two sides. After each group conferred privately for an extended period of time, MLBPA reps presented a new proposal to the owners during a 15-minute session. The ownership group then took time to mull over the offer before another meeting with the players that lasted roughly 45 minutes.
The union’s proposal was a “comprehensive” offer that addressed several core economic issues, according to ESPN’s Jeff Passan and Jesse Rogers (Twitter links). Perhaps most importantly in terms of finding common ground on a new collective bargaining agreement, the MLBPA is now “backing significantly off” some of its most noteworthy asks in previous offers. This includes changes to the players’ previous demands about the luxury tax, an expansion in Super Two eligibility, and cuts to the amount of revenue-sharing funds allocated to smaller-market teams.
Despite these concessions, the owners still “reacted badly” to the latest union offer, The Athletic’s Evan Drellich reports. This led to an “outraged” reaction from the players and a “hostile” tone in the second meeting between the two sides. As per Chelsea Janes of The Washington Post, the “players are currently considering walking away from the table” altogether, rather than take part in meetings that were slated for tomorrow and Monday.
As reported by ESPN’s Enrique Rojas (Spanish-language link) and The Associated Press, the MLBPA is now seeking to expand Super Two eligibility to 35% of all players who have between two and three years of service time. This represents a major decrease from the players’ previous ask of 75% of all players within that service-time window, and yet apparently it isn’t enough to change the owners’ stance. The league has been steadfast in refusing any expansion to the Super Two structure — in the last CBA, the top 22% of players with between two and three years of service time received an extra year of arbitration eligibility.
Likewise, the league has refused any discussion of changes to the revenue-sharing structure. The union initially sought a $100MM cut in revenue-sharing funds, and later dropped that demand to $30MM. Today’s proposal altered that number further, as teams receiving revenue-sharing wouldn’t lose any money, but would still be incentivized to increase local revenue with the offer of extra money made available from MLB’s central fund. However, the owners are still not willing to budge whatsoever on the topic.
Discussions about the competitive balance tax have at least led to some back-and-forth negotiations, albeit without much progress. The players made a $2MM reduction for each of the second, third, and fourth years of luxury tax thresholds, breaking down the numbers as follows: a $245MM tax number in 2022, $250MM in 2023, $257MM in 2024, $264MM in 2025, and $273MM in 2026.
The league made only one change to its base tax thresholds, with a $1MM increase to the second year of the CBA. The owners’ proposed luxury tax thresholds are $214MM in 2022, $215MM in 2023, $216MM in 2024, $218MM in 2025, and $222MM in 2026.
In regards to the penalties for exceeding those thresholds, Major League Baseball again made only slight adjustments from its previous offer. In today’s proposal from the league, teams exceeding each of the three levels for the first time would pay a 45% tax on the overage of any dollar spent between $214MM-$234MM, a 62% tax on overages from $234MM-$254MM, and a 95% tax rate on the overage for anything spent beyond the $254MM mark. Previously, the league wanted respective tax rates of 50%, 75%, and 100% for each of the three thresholds.
These are obviously still sizeable jumps over the overage tax rates in the last CBA (20%, 32%, and 62.5%), and the league has compounded the penalty by asking that teams that surpass the second and third tiers lose draft picks. The MLBPA has been adamantly against the owners’ luxury tax asks, viewing the demands as essentially the creation of an unofficial salary cap.
As reported yesterday by Drellich and Ken Rosenthal, the league has been looking shorten the amount of time required before unilateral on-field rule changes can be imposed. The previous CBA had a one-year grace period between a league’s proposal and (whether the union agreed to the rule changes or not) the implementation of said new rules, though the owners are now looking for a grace period of only 45 days. The MLBPA has been resistant to this shorter window of time, and the league needs the players’ approval in the next CBA to agree to the owners’ ability to implement unilateral rule changes of any kind.
Returning to the issue of service time, the league has agreed that players who finish first or second in Rookie Of The Year voting will receive a full year of service time. (Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch was among those to report the news.) This counts as a minor win for the players, even if the MLBPA has been looking at a WAR-based formula for multiple players who excel in their rookie seasons to receive service time. The league had been looking instead address the service-time manipulation issue by offering extra draft picks to teams who have players with top-three finishes in the ROY/MVP/Cy Young voting during their first three arbitration-eligible seasons.
If there is any other minor glimpse of good news from today’s meetings, one CBA issue has apparently been settled. The owners and players agreed to a new rule on minor league options, as USA Today’s Bob Nightengale reports that players can now be sent to the minor leagues a maximum of five times per season.
Unfortunately, progress has apparently been lost on the topic of a draft lottery. Reports from yesterday’s negotiating sessions indicated that the two sides were at least coming close to settling the exact number of teams involved in such a lottery, though the owners attempted to make a larger lottery (as per the MLBPA’s demands) contingent on the acceptance of a 14-team postseason. That same offer was floated by the league today and turned down by the players, who had previously expressed a willingness to expand the playoffs to 12 teams. Given the amount of extra revenue involved in extra postseason games, it isn’t surprising that the union isn’t willing to make such a major concession to the owners without tying it to an issue of greater import than the draft lottery.
Saturday’s sessions mark the sixth consecutive day of talks between the two sides, yet this increase in negotiations has yet to produce much in the way of concrete progress. MLB has stated that without a CBA in place by Monday, some regular-season games will have to be canceled, though the union has remained skeptical that the league truly sees February 28th as a firm deadline.
However, some Spring Training games have already been canceled, and it becomes increasingly unlikely that Opening Day will proceed as scheduled on March 31. If the hard feelings reportedly generated in today’s meetings actually do result in a breakdown in talks, it will only lead to more dismay and frustration among baseball fans who are more than ready for the lockout to be over.
just cancel the season
Let em walk away. Just don’t pay the players for as long as it takes. If it goes on long enough, all the owners need is for 30% of the players to say they want to come pick up their paychecks and stop allowing the union to represent them. Then the union would be dissolved and players would make their own personal decisions as to whether they feel like showing up to be paid under the terms of their individual contracts. The longer players go without income while being represented by the union, the closer that number will get to 30% that don’t want to be represented by people who aren’t getting them paid. And really?? After all the offers the union turned down from MLB, “the players were outraged and hostile” because MLB turned down one of their offers? Give me a break. Walk away from the table, representatives. You have clients who have hundreds of millions of guaranteed dollars on the table and they aren’t getting that money under your representation. You clearly aren’t doing a good job of getting your clients money.
You are really dumb
You seem really intelligent.
You’re right. He’s dumb.
I don’t think that anyone here is an owner OR a player. Everyone here is just a surrogate fighting millionaires and billionaires battles for them. Have fun with that!
@javia. MLB players do come to MLBTR and comment anonymously. That has been revealed in the best thing MLBTR has come up with in a VERY long time known as player chats. So if there’s players here what to stop agents and or owners? I can 100% see guys like Boras and Cohen commenting on here just to shake the hornets nest.
Only around 30% of MLBPA members are Millionaires.
As far as minor league guys go, they don’t even make $20,000
Let’s stop this Millionaires vs Billionaires narrative.
beyondtheboxscore.com/2019/7/23/20703711/stop-call…
@rolder: You are exactly right. All the owners need is for less than half of those non-millionaires to realize that the MLBPA is preventing them from picking up their relatively huge paychecks for the union to be dissolved. Squeeze them and get it done. Once and for all. That way no one has to hear about a person with a salary over $570k complain about money. Especially when they are athletes who are know for making money off their bodies and not the common sense that com s along with people who make money off their brains.
It’s cute to believe the league minimum would anywhere close to $570k without the Union.
Minor leaguers aren’t represented by the MLBPA. Their pay is irrelevant to this discussion.
And the reason there aren’t more millionaires among the union’s membership is that their agenda has typically only served those with the most earning power. Everyone who never hits arbitration or free agency is just hoping some crumbs trickle down.
The MLBPA’s only priority is increasing free agent spending. The players are no more concerned with the good of baseball than the owners are. And they’re less concerned with the long-term health of your favorite team.
These are two sides driven only by greed. I’ll never understand why fans choose to pick sides here. Neither cares about you or positioning the game of baseball for a successful, sustainable future. It’s all about dollars and cents.
@Daniel: I agree. I just want the problem fixed. It’s well known MLB players have it better than NFL, NBA and NHL players. They still whine more than any of them. It’s a problem.
We get it Hammer- you hate the players. You hate their union. You can’t stand the fact that mere employees could make so much money, and they have the audacity to ask for more. You think they don’t deserve market rates. They must be kept down and their union broken up.
Baseball is an entertainment industry. The players are the entertainers. Their salaries are artificially suppressed from the day they are drafted. But they have the right to bargain collectively, and you hate that too.
Relax Patrick. Get up out of the players bed, get dressed, brush your teeth and go home. Which agent or MLB agency are you? Thank God these oppressed, damn-near-broke players have you negotiating for them.
Go pound sand, Agent
Better yet, pick up your glove and bat, and go do it yourself. It’s “just a game”, right? The solution and the challenge seems simple enough.
People like you are either bitter they couldn’t cut it themselves, or still salty that their mom left their dad for a ballplayer.
@Patrick: The players absolutely deserve market rates just like anyone else. They deserve to get paid what any non-MLB team is willing to pay them. If that’s not enough for them then they deserve to do whatever MLB teams tell them to do if they want an MLB salary. No one is stopping them from going to Japan. If they want to play for an MLB team they have to do what MLB owners say. Do you not know what a “league” is? It’s not just a bunch of random businesses who decided to play against each other. It’s a group of businesses who made rules with themselves to make their league the best baseball league in the world. Every player is welcome to leave that opportunity whenever they want. Play by MLB owner’s rules or go play in another league. That’s how they can test the market after many owners put billions of dollars into expanding Major League Baseball to the point that it’s the best opportunity any player has to make money by playing with a ball.
Well Hammer, suffice it to say that we differ.
That’s not how labor relations work in America. Players are human beings, and they have legal rights. Their rights have been hard fought and won.
Owners do not have a legal right to impose working conditions and terms on players. Players over successive generations are responsible for the growth of the sport of baseball, and they deserve to share in it’s profits.
There are many areas where I don’t agree with the players’ positions, and I question their strategy on many fronts, past and present. But they have a right to fair bargaining, and the owners are not bargaining in good faith, particularly with respect to their draconian proposals for an even harder de facto salary cap.
…. Thanks to the union LOL
@hammer- it’s cute that you think guys like Cohen and Boras would take the time to come here to “shake the hornets nets”
Patrick: Since you are omniscient, please tell me what I’m thinking now. 😉
You’re thinking that I’m either omniscient, or very silly. Amiright?
@Patrick: You are correct. Until 30% of MLB players realize that the union representatives are costing them more money than they are making them. All the owners have to do is starve the players out while the reps make these ridiculous unprecedented demands for any sport and the union is dissolved. Do you think it’s in Fernando Tatis best interest to walk away from $340 million? Or Corey Seager’s best interest to walk away from $325 million? Or even a bum like Sean Newcomb to walk away from $1 million? All the owners have to do is starve the players until they realize MLB is the best shot they have so they can play by MLB rules or pick their much smaller paychecks up elsewhere. NBA players figured this out. NFL players figured this out. NHL players figured this out. All it’s going to take is starving the would be super rich players long enough for the poorest 30% to decide screw the union because I want my money for the union to dissolve and finally have MLB players figure it out too. Cap and floor it. It’s not their choice just like it’s not LeBron James or Tom Brady’s choice. You think those guys want a salary cap? Of course not? Did they show up anyway? Of course. All MLB needs to do is get their whiney players to do the same thing and all this work stoppage crap will end. Or do some of you really live in a fantasy world where you believe Max Scherzer should be paid over $18 million a year more than Tom Brady? It works in every other sport. It will work in baseball as soon as the owners take this opportunity to prove to the players they have no other choice. Make the work stoppage worth it.
Gee, I thought that you were the agent?
Did I say that the players were broke or oppressed? Nah. You said that.
If I were negotiating for the players, I would be making some very different proposals.
I’d be asking for much higher minimum salaries, 700K first year, 850K 2nd year and $1M for 2 yrs players not eligible for arbitration in 2022, increasing by 5% per season.
No pre arbitration bonus pool
Arbitration eligibility after 2.5 seasons (2.086 which is 30 days less than present)
Players who are top 3 ROY or All stars in their first two years eligible after 2 years
I’d be willing to give up some limits on the upper end to benefit the vast majority of players on the lower end of the scale. How much could they get if the max contract was $25 or $30 million? Certain agents would hate that.
I’d want more revenue sharing, not less, but require teams spend the money transferred on player salaries
I’d propose a CBT
25% over $225 million (current with 7% adjustment for inflation, a bit below the middle between the 2 sides)
50% over $25o million
75% over $275 million
100% dollar for dollar tax over $300 million
25% tax under $100 million
50% under 75 million
100% under 50 million
Thresholds increase by $5 M per year
Any team that pays a CB tax is ineligible for the draft lottery
How about that? A CB tax that actually restores some hint of competitive balance!
I would also propose that all minor leaguers be paid a minimum of $1000 per week for 26 weeks, plus housing. The owners would reject it, but make a noble effort for your future members.
And I’d propose that Rob Manfred have no role in changing any rules.
And I would be fired immediately.
I mean… Seriously. Max Scherzer out earns Tom Brady by more than $18 million. Trevor Bauer is paid over $20 million more than Tom Brady and he might not even play. Baseball has a serious problem and that problem does not exist in any other sport.
Well, that’s clearly the bargaining strategy of MLB. They want the leverage of missed pay checks.
I’m actually surprised that the owners haven’t put even more money on the table in terms of minimum salary to appeal to the silent majority of players who aren’t at the CBA talks. If MLB proposed a $700K minimum and the players walk away with no pay checks, the masses could grow restless. Divide and conquer.
700K would be $129,500 increase per player. If half the 26 man roster are in that service class, that’s less than $1.7 million per team. They get $6- 8 million just for advertising patches on uniforms.
Patrick you’re so far off base with that comment. The owners have every right to impose working conditions on the players hence the word owner. It’s their teams and their league, do you not know that? They can choose not to deal with that union if they don’t want to and can start from scratch building new teams. I’d be curious to see just how many players would jump on that opportunity. If you think there aren’t players that are sick and tired of being represented by this union you’re dead wrong. I could see if the conditions were so bad that things would get like this but this situation was born out of pure greed and nothing more. To talk about how the players deserve this and that is beyond silly. They work for the owners it’s not the other way around. I know many people these days don’t understand the concept of employer and employee but it exists still, well at least last time I checked it did. Players want want want yet they play less and less every year. The way things are going in this country these greedy clowns might want to think twice about how long they stretch this nonsense out because when all is said and done fans will move on in fact by the look of the parks last season many have already and right now the entire league is giving them more reasons to do so.
Right. BREAK THE UNION!!!
Pretty sure there’s been a few players posting here anonymously.
Who do you suspect specifically of being an anonymous player posting here?
He’s right.
How are they not? Why not just extend the current agreement 5 more years? It’s both the owners and the players fault that they can’t get it done. It will get done once they start missing games…that’s when the two sides both start feeling it. Why give in if you’re the owners when you know the players eventually will?
Mystery
You said “ The owners have every right to impose working conditions on the players hence the word owner. It’s their teams and their league”
You sit and complain that players are overpaid, but owners have shown with their wallets that they’re willing, if not happy, to shell out billions in player salaries across the four major sports.
They’re willing, if not happy, to pay players millions of dollars per year, all while operating under the strongest union in the world. Where players are given the best healthcare, the best pension, the best care and treatment, the best hotels, and to work in the best facilities in the world.
Sounds to me like you’re scared to admit this is a partnership, and players are not simply “labor”.
It’s time to admit that athletes in the four major sports have tremendous leverage and value. If that wasn’t true, we wouldn’t be sitting here talking about this now.
Patrick, your proposal is more reasonable than your rhetoric. Baseball negotiations are more complicated and IMO should start with a negotiated revenue split between players and owners- like all the other sports. Your understanding of the different stakeholders is insightful.
Eat the Rich is a common theme with many posters. I view greed and envy as equal deadly sins.
@Patrick
Make the players all free agents every year. Only one year guaranteed contract should be allowed. Then you will get market rates. The players wages would collapse with every injury or poor statistic. Older players would be out of the league by 30. The CBA does not create market rates. It enables long-term, non-compete agreements which block the promotion of younger, cheaper players You are just upset that the owners have decided to do what the players do well …. hang together rather than fight among themselves.
I agree, they are the owners and they decide salaries and conditions, and if a player doesn’t like it they can just leave, like in the corporate world. The MLBPA has gone to far with their demands, well this may all be mute anyway once Putin starts lobbing nukes at us.
They also have the right to choose a different profession if the MLB thing isn’t to there liking
But to be fair, the annual median MLB salary is $1.1M, the medium salary is $4.8M. If I’m for the union (slightly) in this fight,
If I were to work hard for 4 or 5 years and started making $575,000 annually, I’d be pretty happy after 2 or three years. And if I’m the least bit intelligent, I should be able to invest some of that money and live comfortably on that forever.
I don’t think Major League players are downtrodden. But I do think minor league players and young MLB players should be paid more. Arbitration after two years.
Their salaries are suppressed by competitive balance. There is no way to get to every player earning ‘market price’ without making the entire league 1 year free agents.. The player’s don’t want that, nor do they want the league compressed down to 10 teams.
Doubt all the arms that get shuttled back and forth b/w the Majors and Minors feel it is irrelevant.
In any case, MiLB’ers getting paid below a living wage shows what the owners can and will do without a Union. This makes dissolving the Union a tough sell.
MLBPA has other priorities besides increasing FA spending. MLBTR has plenty of information available on the subject.
Lol. Can you stop pretending the MLBPA cares about the guys making $20k? It most certainly is a fight for millionares.
So u dont think theres any consequences whatsoever to the owners if the season is cancelled altogether??
There shouldn’t even be a players union any more. All the players have agents, let them negotiate each player on there own. No need for not a unhook and agents, one has to go.
So free agency for everyone and no draft. That is what you have without a CBA. I am sure the players would go for that.
There is, but I bet they could find some minor league players who’d be interested in playing baseball in MLB stadiums.
You can replace a team of 26 quicker than you can get a new stadium, team, owner, etc.
Does anyone else have an uneasy feeling in their stomach just thinking about writers having a say in whether a player gets awarded a year of service time or not?
Nothing should be based on award voting, not as long as there’s still biased and/or ignorant writers such as Evan Grant, George King and LaVelle Neal doing the voting.
Fever: Spot on. I agree.
vtncsc — Yeah, and seeing what a small percentage of minor leaguers have the talent to make it to the majors, can you imagine the quality of baseball that you’re suggesting?
Fever — Yes, all you have to do is look at the HOF voting to know this is a bad idea.
suit – I’ve been meaning to ask …. Armani? Tagliatore? Lardini?
Pete – I’ve always felt if a writer leaves a player completely off their award ballot, and that player ends up winning the award, the writer should permanently lose their voting eligibility.
Similar with HOF voting, if a player receives at least 90% of the vote on their first ballot appearance, and a writer leaves them off their ballot, they lose their voting eligibility.
Writers really should be held accountable for glaring omissions.
Fever: haha. I am actually not a big fan of dressing up for work. I am a big fan of Stone Temple Pilots. All In The Suit That You Wear is a great song by them. The message of the song is that, whatever you are looking for or running from, it’s all in the suit that you wear…meaning the source of and answer to most of our problems is within. Not the answer you expected I’m guessing:)
You think the union would allow them to become union members once they became major league players if they were scabs as minor league players?
@FPG I agree with this sentiment. Seeing Walt Weiss get a HOF vote when he first got on the ballot was an eye-opener for me and made me really question the entire process. It was reinforced when Jeter didn’t get in unanimously.
@Ebouch25 Do you think the players would care about being in the union if the owners made them multi millionaires?
Wait, so if a writer does not vote for a player that makes the HOF you want them removed from voting? So the HOF should be 100% vote to get in. you shouldn’t vote anything.
@allinthesuit. My favorite STP song was interstate love song. Sad that so many lead singers of the 90’s are gone. Cobain/Staley/Weiland/Cornell/Hoon/Bennington.
suit – Thanks for the explanation, I didn’t know that about STP.
Apparently Weiland didn’t wear suits.
He was great with VR though.
Yeah man, what a great time it was to be a kid. Lots of good bands, but then again, I’m sure every generation feels that way. Used to listen to a bunch of those bands right before my wrestling tournaments, while warming up.
Jeter drive in 100 RBIs 1 time only. That’s the most important batting stat.He has 0 MVPs and if you were not a Yankee fan you could see why it wasn’t 100%. He belongs but no player is 100%. Ryan I think has/had the highest % into the hall and he never won a Cy, won 20 games twice but lost 19 in 1 of those 2, 20 win seasons.. 7 No hitter only means 7 games he was great. Ever player has a + & – .
Yeah, ownership can definitely rustle up some scabs to fill out a lineup card. Can’t make fans pay for tickets to watch them play, though, and all of the capital expenses of operating a baseball stadium with little to no gate revenue isn’t a win for ownership.
Animals
@ Suit
Animals
Fred: So sad…and hardly anyone makes rock-and-roll anymore
@allinthesuit. The 90’s had some awesome bands. The young people today have no idea what real music is.
Fever: Weiland was great. I’m often left wondering about the meanings of his songs. All In The Suit That You Wear is one of the few he wrote with an obvious meaning. VR was great. Slash’s Snakepit was also great. I recommend their album Ain’t Life Grand if you are interested.
MetsFan: “ but no player is 100%”
Okay, we’ve got to disagree here. How about the best at each position to ever play the game with a few extras: off the top of my head:
Ruth, Mays, Gehrig, Musial, Bench, Hank Aaron, Honus Wagner, Schmidt, Williams, Mantle, Jackie Robinson, Joe D?
If you can’t say the best player to play the game doesn’t deserve to get in @ 100%, and nearly all of these aren’t even up for debate, I can’t help you. But if you want to argue about, say…. Wagner or Schmidt, for example? Okay, how about the two best to ever play the game & one that changed the game forever – Ruth / Mays (& obviously Jackie Robinson)? Any one of these not 100% in the HOF in anyone’s book, even conceivably?
Dogs: It’s too bad Pink Floyd will never get back together.
Pink Floyd was some of the best music EVER the surviving members are super old these days though.
Wicked Garden and Crackerman
Mark Lannegan
It’s the writers decision they don’t have to all agree.670 the score voters don’t always agree with the majority.
Mariano Rivera is the GOAT not Nolan
They certainly haven’t in the past.
Wonder how long Schezer will like losing $232,000 for every regular season game canceled.
You realize he just came off a contract where he made over $200 million
I think “Schezer” will be fine either way.
An economic fascist chimes in.
What in hell is an “economic fascist?”
A marxist
Pete: The same as a “democratic socialist”.
All Marxism disguised by another name so we can say how cools Marxism is now… yay colleges and stuff
A neoliberal capitalist (ie the owners).
Lick more boot
Why would any player want to be a scab. In that case why would anyone? They’re the worst.
Because only a very small percentage of the population cares about scabs?
Because Hubert, without scabs we wouldn’t heal, my friend. It’s just a biological fact. And clearly, we need healing.
The players are making larger concessions in their counters than the owners. it’s a tough argument to back owners when some of the richest owners are the ones negotiating on behalf of everyone, and one of their focus points is the unions luxury tax threshold is too high. That is only a factor if owners spend to that amount, something they aren’t forced to do. if it happens, it’s because teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, redsox, etc. spent money they supposedly can’t afford to give up.
That’s only if you believe the starting point of the players was reasonable. If I tell you I want a million dollars for something that’s worth 20 and you offer 5, then up your offer to 10 and I reduce mine to 500k, I’m making a bigger concession, but my ask is still unreasonable.
The players are making larger concessions in their counters than the owners. it’s a tough argument to back owners when some of the richest owners are the ones negotiating on behalf of everyone, and one of their focus points is the unions luxury tax threshold is too high. That is only a factor if owners spend to that amount, something they aren’t forced to do. if it happens, it’s because teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, red sox, etc. spent money they supposedly can’t afford to give up.
Hammer, now it’s late on Saturday but I think I saw a glimmer of hope in Mark’s update at 7:19 pm central time.
I hope to have a season and it’s the players who needed to back off.
So here’s hoping for an accord tomorrow.
.
What an imbecile. Siding with the billionaires who make tax payers pay for their stadiums.
I truly hope the commenters here with an IQ above 70 don’t actually think this ‘Hammer’ commenter has a point. His opinions are as far off as his understanding of everything, including the owners’ perspective.
Do you yourselves a favor and read the articles & posts from Jeff Passan or anyone from Fangraphs for competent takes on what’s actually happening and what realistically should happen.
Please let the players walk away. Serves them right for making idiotic and outlandish proposals. The union is out of its mind. Ridiculous. Let them walk away and get real jobs. Ones that get pay raises of 3% per year like the rest of us. Not 30%.
They get guaranteed contracts regardless of performance and injuries. They get arbitration raises regardless of performance or injury. Take a flying leap!
I’d rather see “scabs” play that want to actually play baseball for the love of the game. Not these pretentious, egotistical maniacs
If you don’t care about watching Major League caliber players play, why follow MLB at all? Pick an A-ball team to follow – it’ll save you a ton of cash compared to Major League pricing, and there won’t be any pretentious egomaniacs on the field.
It sounds like you’re more jealous than anything else.
The owners signed a TV contract that pays them a 65% increase starting next year. You think the players shouldn’t receive part of that?
Laughable.
Which team do you own? Hate working people do ya? Love billionaires huh. Know anything about baseball, or baseball history, or baseball LABOR history?
Even if you say you do, you clearly don’t.
How you continue to support the side that says “we aren’t budging an inch plus we want expanded playoffs and the right to change the rules whenever we want” over the side that says “we want our minimum wage to keep pace with inflation” is beyond comprehension.
Remember when Ronald Reagan did that to the Airline employees? Remember? It has been ALL downhill since then for working people. Hammer, you libertarian types are living in a fantasy on how the market works. Either that, or you like it when people suffer..
The PA has scraped or lowered many of their demands and now it’s the owners who won’t agree until they get everything they want and then some, apparently.
As the iron sheet just said on Twitter : F-CK EVERYONE IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW
As the Iron Sheik just said on Twitter:: F-CK EVERYONE IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW
What did the sheet say to the comforter? Cover me
Enough of this pillow talk, let’s move on
It’s all fluff anyway.
Exactly. That’s exactly the right move for MLB. A hard one but the right one, and truth be told not all that hard. These ‘billionaires’ people write about will have no trouble spending billions of dollars on things other than player salaries. The players will be hurt worse, but it’s the players that sent the MLBPA Clown Car to the table.
Dan Halem and Rob Manfred must be shaking their heads at the incompetence of the MLBPA. MLBPA has been repeatedly told that its proposals on revenue sharing and early arbitration are non-starters, but they keep trying to leverage them for movement on minimum salary and CBT while not moving themselves. When MLBPA wants movement on minimum salary and CBT they’re going to have to bargain on those issues with their own proposals – not by trying to leverage fairy-tale proposals on reduced revenue sharing and early arbitration,
And MLBPA keeps sticking to its ‘win the internet’ tactics. MLB is 30 different businesses with different levels of financial stability. The clubs won’t agree to these businesses being put in jeopardy because some morons and wokies on the internet yell ‘Rob Manfred sucks’. To believe that they might, you have to be quite stupid.
Lock them out. Leave them out for the season. Next year when you come back the players will be shocked by how much has changed. Corey Seager’s $325MM will be worth about 10% of that.
“these businesses being put in jeopardy” LMFAO
Why is there no more talk of a salary floor? Did the owners oppose it? I would think the players would support it as it would force a team like Pittsburgh to spend more. Depending where they set the floor, I think it could have more impact on spending than CBT thresholds and penalties.
@allinthesuit. I agree on a cap. I’ve seen this argument on here countless times and someone always chimes in with “ if you have a floor you have to have a cap”. I think that’s false anything can be negotiated.
I keep coming back to a salary floor, too. It’s simple, though I know the Union doesn’t like the idea. I think the positives outweigh the negatives, even if the owners keep a cap.
As long as the owners insist on making CBT penalties harder, there will be no agreement, period. And both sides know it.
MLB refused to bargain in good faith in 1994, over the same issue of a salary cap. That was settled by a federal court injunction. The butt hurt owners have been trying to reinstitute a salary cap ever since.
There is no way in hell that players will agree to making the de facto salary cap even harder. Too much blood has been spilled on that hill for them.
The players are right to be furious. They have come down significantly on key issues and owners still refuse to move.
The owners are exclusively responsible for the lockout, and the transaction freeze, and the delay in negotiations, and the threat to cancel games.
both sides need to realize that no-one cares if there is a 2022 season or not. Formyself if they cut EVEN A SINGLE game off th 162 game season they can both go F..k themselves
Wait, wait….lemme guess…FLICK? “They can go FLICK themselves”. Did I get it? This game is sooo hard it’s no wonder why nobody else is playing.
Yeah because FLICK has 4 letters in it like I posted???.. Yankee fans are just so F….n STUPID and I don’t mean FLICKED stupid either !!!
Apparently someone missed the joke, Randy {finger pointing at you}.
But, I don’t take offense to the irony of you calling me stupid after that. Thank you. I do wish you a less….stressful time during your stay on the MLBTR discussion board. Have a great day!
Clip: That was funny.
Randy: Chill out dude.
Randy Red Sox— I understand why everyone’s pissed off, but let’s not call others names—even those fans of teams we dislike. It just lowers the discourse.
Patrick OKennedy — It’s certainly time to strip MLB of it’s monopoly status.
You’re right, Pete’s View. But the discourse gets pretty low here already. We’re trash talking with people we don’t know and will never meet.
rodcannon — Yes, it’s really not useful. It’s a combination of what the Internet in general has wrought—faceless ability to vent on others without decency, AND baseball fans, like you and I, so frustrated by money negotiations between two groups that really don’t have the money issues most Americans are now facing.
The players turned down the salary floor as it was proposed with a salary cap.
stymeedone — Yes, I know, but I think this is a point worth negotiating and one that might insure that all teams are in the playoff hunt. And if they can’t spend the floor, they should sell to a buyer who sees the benefits of owning a Major League team.
Milb
One cannot help but root for the Trash Pandas. What an outstanding moniker.
I agree, its all about greed at this point. Playing a game and earning millions while a normal family makes less than 6 figures. Hope they fail in their meeting and just call it for 2022, then when 2023 comes around try again, and if it fails again call it for 2023, and so forth and so on. Baseball ain’t getting a dime from me as they are just a bunch of greedy and spoiled individuals, the owners as well.
Tony Clark is horrible
Manfred Putin is purposely running the ownership like it’s the titanic
The players make concessions & Tony Clark is horrible? He isn’t great, but Manfred is worse. The owners don’t seem to want to give the players anything
And then he wonders why his boss won’t give him a raise.
Or he is the boss, hates handouts, but was running like a madman to the bank when PPP bailouts were getting thrown around
The owners have been making concessions at every meeting. The players do it ONCE and they are “outraged” it wasnt accepted.
What fan take their family to a ball game to see an owner play baseball. Please tell me
What family is going to watch baseball in a farmers field?
All of them. players play, but fans don’t see them and they don’t get paid without an enormous set of operations. players don’t negotiate media or other rights deals, get stadia from taxpayer dollars, manage tickets, sell advertising and a.million other things needed for players to get paid.
Fans root for teams mostly, not players. When a player is traded, fans in his prior market lose most of their rooting interest for him, and root for the new person.
Players definitely are a bit part of creating value, but they are far from the only factor that does.
Al, really dumb argument.
I sure don’t want to watch the owners play. Luckily I won’t have to. Eventually most the players will come back and play at whatever the owners offer. There never has been and won’t be a negotiation. If the owners can give a few more crumbs and keep the players satisfied it’s good business. If they still want something drastic the owners will wait them out. They will come crawling back.
big part, not bit part.
You just don’t get it at all, do you.
That’s meant for Al H.
There would be no league without the owners. Genius.
Let the owners play then. I think it would be worth paying to see those fat slobs try to get to first base without getting a heart attack.
In all fairness it doesn’t say they were outraged it wasn’t accepted. It says they were outraged as a result of the owners “responding badly” which could mean….Well, anything. It says both sides were hostile so I imagine both sides weren’t on their best behavior.
I mean, I’d do that.
If you build it, they will come.
The issue is that the union came in with demands that were so overboard that it’s been ridiculously hard to get to a deal. Players wanted all of the following over the last CBA:
Increase in CBT of $33M in year one plus big jumps each year
Creation of player pool in the amount of over $100M
Increase to super two eligibiiity from 22% to 75%
Minimum salary increase of $130k year one
Eight team draft lottery
That’s because they’ve lost money since the last cbd.
We should recommend some CBD lotions to the negotiators, it might help get this party started quicker!
Explain??
They have not lost money!
Hahaha. The MINIUM wage is $600k.
There are now 26 active players per team.
Those asks aren’t ridiculous. There is $3 billion gap the union is trying to get a piece of.
The only ‘concessions’ that players make are on things they don’t have. They’re not going to be able to leverage things they don’t have like reduced revenue sharing and early arbitration for CBT and minimum salary.
College baseball is pretty cool y’all. PING!!!!
Hockey ain’t bad either.
It is if you’re a Flyers fan in 2022.
The corn hole championships are on espn 2…it’s a great match between the players and the owners
The ping brings back fond memories
My ECU Pirates aren’t off to the best of starts, but at least they’re playing.
Blitzball with jomboy is the wtg.
Seems like the owners want it their way or not at all. I wouldn’t blame the players for walking at this point.
If I were the players, I would walk away and retract ALL previous offers. Tell the owners to shove it. The fact that the owners reacted poorly to a players offer that significantly reduces some of their main goals is further proof that the owners have NO interest in settling things at this juncture. They WANT to cancel games to punish the players. They WANT to cancel games in order to shove whatever offer they do want to make right down the players throat.
Then owners declare an impasse and hire replacement players.
Exactly. The players are in my judgment thoroughly mismanaging this negotiation (based on my assessment of their bargaining leverage), but walking away would be really goofy.
so owners will spend millions on stadium staff, advertising, etc. and for replacement players. that mathematical equation won’t work out well for them long term
Replacement players are too expensive for 10 teams… Unless they can get taxpayer help to fund the replacement players because owners are poor.
Not a hope in hell. An impasse has a legal definition, and this definitely is not it. First they have to bargain in good faith. They haven’t.
Owners declared the lockout
Owners declared a transaction freeze
Owners refused to negotiate for six weeks
Owners refused to make an offer unless players took three key issues off the table
Owners continue to demand more than doubling CBT taxes and adding draconian penalties
Owners want an even harder de facto salary cap, knowing that there is zero chance of getting it
Trying to declare an impasse would have the same result as in 1995. NLRB would find the owners in violation of the fair labor standards act and get a court in junction, which would reimpose the old CBA, with no CBT
Wait, so if a writer does not vote for a player that makes the HOF you want them removed from voting? So the HOF should be 100% vote to get in. you shouldn’t vote anything.
I’m with you TigerDoc. I love the game of baseball- I’d hate to have the season cut short but if the players decided to ‘walk away from the table’ I wouldn’t hold it against them.
I feel like the owners have had almost no intentions of co-operating with the players this whole time. They took a two month break before they even started talking! Those early discussions were done over Zoom calls. If the owners really wanted to get this CBA done they would’ve had daily face to face meetings starting on Dec 01.
The players have been submitting proposals for almost 2 years (before the CBA expired) to try to start negotiations and the owners refused to look at them.
Players don’t play in 2022. I am sure you can make just as much or even more not playing baseball. So what if you will be older when you hit free agency. So what if minor leaguers who will be playing in 2022 get developed and take your roster spot. Make these greedy owners lose money. I am 100 percent certain they won’t take it out on future free agents trying to make up their lost revenue from 2022 and fan loss. Show them who’s boss players. Like hundreds have said, nobody wants to watch the owners play. You have all the power.
@tigerdoc.
The owners were never going to move on the CBT because only six teams have ever surpassed the amount and 24 teams have not. The Rays, Orioles, Reds and Marlins don’t want the Mets,Yankees, Dodgers and Red Sox out spending them by 3 to 1. It’s an issue between the small market teams and the big market teams. The players should have never entered those discussion, or revenue sharing.
Its an attempt to make the de facto salary cap even harder. It’s a non starter, and they know it. They are not bargaining in good faith.
Patrick: Here’s an interesting point that Prov356, a frequent commenter on the boards here, brought up: why even address that issue at all in bargaining knowing the owners have the power to regulate their budget, and do so every year, as we have seen?
And to your point, why would the owners choose to use that item as their line in the sand (one of a few, actually) when they can simply come to even a slightly modified agreeable version of the CBT, but keep payroll wherever they so choose as long as there is no floor? To me that is where ownership is going the wrong direction on their good faith argument. It falls flat. Nothing contained therein prohibits an owner from continuing to restrict a GM from spending over a predetermined amount of money. It affords no extra rights to players, it awards no extra money to players. It requires no extra expenditures. It’s window dressing.
MLB owners want to prohibit themselves and other owners from spending on player salaries. They want to thwart the free market system while keeping the minimum salary lower than any other sport.
No, you leave the offer then leave. Eventually they’ll take it. If you pull the offer too, then you’ll look like the bad guy and you’ll give the owners the excuse of, “they won’t negotiate, blah, blah, blah….
Walking where? It’s not like they can play elsewhere.
Mexican league
Can’t play in other leagues unless a free agent
Yeah Mexican League. Brilliant career move.
Japan pays pretty darn well for a summer job.
Walking to Starbucks for their barista career?
Then Trout and Arenado and Cole and Seagar and the rest of the $200-300 million dollar platers can go be accountants and landscapers if they dont feel fairly compensated.
I don’t mean to poke the proverbial bear, BUT “accountants and landscapers”? So, would they be both, like accountants during the week and landscapers on the weekends or some variation? Or, would they each have to choose one? And, are those two fields in the same approximate category? Like, if I pull up Indeed and type in, “Out of Work Millionaire Ballplayer” does it pull up, “Accountants & Landscapers?”
You’ve now got me hooked and I’m genuinely curious.
Add fisherman to the resume since you’re hooked! Accounfishscapermen and women unite and form a Union! Cheers Clip! *mug tap*
Okay, first of all, you’re Gwynning the conversation by stealing the spotlight.
Touché, and mug tap back at ya little fella!
See you in july!
of 2024
@Superstar Prospect Wander Javier optimist!
Thank you writers for making articles during this time, I know it’s tough. Hope we can still have a great 2022 season!
Agreed! I think that the MLBTR folks, as well as serious mlb writers in general, are doing a terrific job creating content worth reading.
Opened once told me that good journalism is taking important suff and making it sound interesting, and not the other way around. Well, when there is nothing important going except one thing, and that hasn’t been going on much in the last three months, either, you have to write something g people will want to read. And you guys see doing it really well. Thanks.
Would it benefit the players to strap in for the long haul, at this point, and dig in their trenches without trying to meet in the middle (that doesn’t exist)? The NBA and players association came out with a very healthy revenue sharing system with vets minimums, for example, but it took a long time to get there and an extended work stoppage.
I realize this may be apples and oranges, though.
Meet in the middle? Theyve slashed what they were asking for on a lot of asks and ownership still wont budge.
That’s what I’m saying. The owners are unwilling to meet in the middle, so should the players back off the concessions and dig in their turf for the long haul to get a better deal?
trog,
Yes, the players shouldn’t budge until the owners come up with a legitimate proposal.
Personally if I have millions of dollars waiting for me eventually I am going to show up to work to receive it.
If you were one of the 1200 best at your job in an $11B industry, you’d be pushing for as many millions as you could get.
I would push to make as much income as I could. But I wouldn’t cost myself income. If I had a lifetime contract I could care less. Sit out as long as you want union.
The owners are offering many millions to the players that they are now currently getting. Those are concessions.
The players’ “concessions” are nothing they now have but just have asked for.
I think your argument is about equity, but not bargaining. I believe that concepts of fairness are not going to matter very much unless politicians legit intervene, and at this point, that looks unlikely.
bronyaur, what exactly are the owners offering? Where are these “many millions?”
I assume you mean the $20M pool for pre-arb players? That’s a drop in the bucket.
Also higher min sals than currently, higher CBT thresholds. That all adds up to many millions that the status quo would have in the owners’ pockets, but would instead go to players.
The players moved the goal post 50 yards down the field and are mad the owners won’t agree to 45 yards. It’s pretty clear the owners are not going to move off incremental changes from the last CBA. Interested to see how this finally ends. The owners have time on their side. A lost season is disaster to a good portion of Major league players.
The owners are proposing a minimum salary increase that hardly keeps up with inflation and 1-2% annual increases in the CBT along with massive increases in the penalties for exceeding it.
The owners put the goal posts in the parking lot.
I can completely understand why small market teams would fight tooth and nail for massive cbt penalties and incremental increases. It’s a massive advantage to a handful of teams. It’s called the competitive balance tax for a reason. I completely agree the league minimum should have a bigger increase and would probably solve a lot of the problems. I am not sure why this isn’t the unions one position to plant their flag.
Because a cap forever creates a maximum on salary and creates compression. They won’t move on the CT now, how willing will they be to move on it in the future? It will stagnate salaries.
Also, to address minimum wage without addressing the hardened caps essentially is asking for compounded compression. Players aren’t stupid. They see what will result in the near future.
Honestly, if I was a Yankees fan I’d probably have this position as well. In reality raising the CBT by 30 percent will help about 3-4 teams really stack their rosters. The current system and the one proposed still allows them to do it but it stings a little bit. A significant increase in the league minimum is going to put a lot more money in pre arb and shuttle players pockets. Isn’t this who the players should be worried about?
There were two teams – Dodgers and Padres – over the CBT last year, but five teams – Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Astros, and Phillies – within $4M of the CBT cutoff. Raising it would mean about seven teams would spend more.
“Stings a little bit?” The players are proposing the same penalties as in the old CBT, while the owners are proposing big increases to the penalties that would sting a lot. Their proposal is moving closer to a hard cap.
The MLBPA should be worried about all its members, from those making the minimum to the biggest free agents.
I was in favor of the players’ first minimum salary proposal being $1M for the first year and something like $1.25M and $1..5M for the second and third years. If owners are going to employ more and more pre-arb players at the league minimum while cutting out the mid-tier free agents, then shift that money to the players they are willing to pay.
Many fans seem to view the last CBA as good, so it things should continue along those lines. The last 2-3 CBAs have worked out magnificently for owners – very much due to a failure by MLBPA and its negotiators – and now the players want to shift the pendulum back their way. I understand why owners don’t want to budge, but that doesn’t mean they won’t.
Owners don’t need to meet in the middle or budge at all. They can go backwards and offer less money. It’s play in my sandbox by my rules or find another profession.
GM,
No one wants to watch inferior players playing at the MLB level. The players have tremendous value and will be compensated appropriately.
Who said anything about inferior players? Will still be the best players in the world. Will be the same players as now.
You said “find another profession.” If they did that, it wouldn’t “be the same players as now.”
@bbs42 Yes. As in find another profession. If you can make more doing something other than MLB then go do it. Are any players working for less money than they can make elsewhere?
It’s only their sandbox until Congress steps it and yanks their anti-trust exemptions away and the owners are left sitting there with their privates in their hands. Or have you forgotten who allows them to have that sandbox?
GM: Yes, to a degree. Many feel that way as an owner until they realize that they are still responsible to their customer base. And when cutting into the bottom line becomes more valuable than the product they put forth for the customer, they will lose.
Their goal is simple. Continue raising prices in all areas to compensate for the gap between current business value & business profit. Meanwhile, they expedite this business idea by clamping down on salaries to create an inverse relationship to the direct relationship (albeit very disproportionate) that exists now.
It doesn’t work. NFL, NBA, and MLB are all different systems with very different structures, different bases, different values. Hockey teams are not even close to as valuable as MLB teams – their most valuable team (NY Rangers) is worth just under $2B this December, which is almost what the Collective average is for MLB. It’s the owners asking for their cake and eating it too.
@SuperSloth Nope. But as of now it’s their sandbox.
MLBPA doesn’t want a true revenue share system. They want the best of both sides.
If the owners just accepted what the players are offering now, it’s a huge win for them. They simply don’t care about missing games.
The frustrating thing is that the difference between the two asking points isn’t that unimaginable anymore. But now they probably won’t talk for a while due to the hostility of it all.
Just an utter embarrassment of a situation for all parties invloved
Nah it’s called business.
These billionaire owners… wouldn’t it be great if the players could start their own league? You know, like the 1890 Player’s League?
Someone call Al Bundy.
Bundy is already on the phone. He’s been holding for 8 hours trying to order a part for the Dodge.
Owners have the leases. Sure you could field 6 team league or something but that wouldn’t help most of the players.
I didn’t think anyone would take it literally. More of an “imagine… what if?” If the players became the collective owners of the sport… wow effing wow. And the fans could all do Green Bay Packers style stadium ownership (or team ownership, depending…)? No billionaires would be needed. Does anyone remember when Joan Kroc tried to give the San Diego Padres to the city of San Diego but MLB rejected it? Anyone? Wonder why that happened? Hmmmm…
I don’t know if it would be great but would be interesting. Competition is always good.
No, it really wouldn’t.
Maybe MLBTRADERUMORS should start up a soccer site since baseball ain’t happening anytime soon.
ewitkows – I’ve been hoping for an EPL rumors site for years now.
I’d love that…this time of year is so good for football. We’re getting into the ‘business end’ of the season for all of Europe’s top leagues. The Champions League knockout stages just began. MLS starts the middle of April. Copa America over the Summer AND this is a World Cup year!
Strange to have the World Cup start in November but when its being played in Qatar….you just cant have it June and July.
FutbalTradeRumors – I like the sound of that
Oh! I forgot…MLS starts earlier this yr. Thanks FIFA
Wasn’t FIFA a mouse in that kids cartoon?
Maybe MLB WANTS NO BASEBALL
Take that to Europe, Cows and sheep can’t eat the same grass!
When are the owners and the players union going to agree to a new CBA and end the lockout prior to Monday’s deadline? When?
Whenever the employees decide they would like to start getting paid and agree to their employers terms.
Game over, see you in 2023.
Stop being emotional. Delayed start, likely, cancelled season..ZERO chance
Oh stop. It will be settled in a week or less. This is how negotiations go.
Eliminate Baseball’s reserve clause now! Force owners who are collecting taxpayers funds in any way to open their books for all to see. Screw owner profits off taxpayer’s dime.
What team is collecting taxpayer funds? Never heard of that. Stadium builds, sure, but the teams don’t own those in most cases (if not all).
Exactly! That is public money.
Exactly what? You did not prove your point. Good Lord!
I just like watching baseball. I can care less how much the owners and players make.
And then he wonders why his boss won’t give him a raise.
Or he is the boss, hates handouts, but was running like a madman to the bank when PPP bailouts were getting thrown around
The players back off significantly on several items & the owners still don’t like it. Seems pretty clear that the owners don’t want to give the players anything at all. They want it their way or no way at all. If the players backed off, the owners should have taken that as a positive sign & then gave the players a concession back on say, minimum salary. Instead the owners are hostile towards the offer. That’s not how you get closer to a deal
Players have a weak negotiating position and the owners know this. People with power tend to use it.
The players are the product. Maybe it’s time to step back for a season, regroup and build their own league.
This thing makes me bitter with baseball…
They are. But it’s a complex shop. Probably the most complex in the world. 2430 games to organise. Coaches, umpires, support staff, planes, hotels, stadiums, tickets, food, entertainment, merchandise, media, tv coverage, web sites……
Big ask for guys that are used to just turning up at point A when told too.
People watch the players and think they are the whole show. The amount of work that goes into showcasing them must be staggering. The whole behind the scenes operation of a 162 game baseball season seems grossly under appreciated by the fans.
This. The NFL is huge, but almost all of their 2000 players are replaceable, and about a quarter of them turnover every year.
the owners don’t plan jack squat if that – their front office employees do all that work
all the owners do is enjoy the bragging rights of owning a team, and reaping millions in income, and hundreds of millions in unrealized capital gains
Who manages and pays for the front office people ?
This doesn’t make me bitter with baseball – it makes me bitter with the billionaire ownership class.
There you go players. Don’t like your employer start your own league. You will have to take huge pay cuts but eventually it might work out to be a more lucrative decision. I don’t like the odds of that happening but it’s mathematically possible.
Players are not the product. The game is the product. Yes, you may go to watch a specific player play but when that player is not performing you don’t cover your eyes and ignore what is happening. No, you watch the game. The player is part of the game, but a replaceable part. The game is the product.
The owners, umpires, and stadiums are also parts of the game and are also replaceable.
The world has bigger problems right now. Time for these clowns to settle
We can kiss the 2022 Season goodbye…
The Owners seem to be acting in bad faith.
They have been the whole time.
I’m not disagreeing about the owners. But players have been acting in bad faith well before the lockout. Cheating to win a World Series. Players like Chris Davis getting insane long term contracts and then killing their teams with their performance. Players giving little regard to fans. All sorts of substances added to baseballs by the pitchers. The list goes on.
Then the players come in and ask for the moon on items that have never been on the table before. Massive raises to the CBT. Draft lottery system. Improved pay for rookies. Lower arbitration time frame. Ask, ask, ask, and then gripe, gripe, gripe. I’m wanting the younger players to get paid more and for the players to ‘win’ this ‘negotiation’. But every report that comes out is getting more and more frustrating. Attendance has dropped every year since 2012. Ratings are down. The game isn’t nearly as enjoyable to watch as it used to be. And both sides are bickering away like their isn’t any other cares in the world.
Billionaires versus millionaires are infuriating us thousandaires.
this is so depressing
Baseball doesn’t deserve a season. Both sides are extremely delusional
The world is on the brink of war, and owners and players cant settle? I didn’t watch baseball for 3 or 4 years after the 94 strike… They don’t play this year and I doubt I watch again. Ill still support this site (good guys here), but Ill be done watching the game .
I hear you Hulk, but if you look at your statement with different perspective, maybe it should be, “These idiots can’t settle? It’s no wonder the world is on the brink of war.”
So do we get televised minor league games this year or are they gonna call up triple a players and minor league deal players this year to play for the parent club?
There is already televised minor league games. I believe they have an app.
Last I checked they didn’t have an app for roku firestick etc. If they aren’t currently working on what it’s a epic fail.
It’s been almost 3 months and I don’t think they’ve even gotten a full 8 hours out of these negations
Someone lock them in a room until a deal is made
I’ve never been one to just blindly take the players side, but it’s pretty eye opening that when the players make massive concessions and the owners are the ones reacting badly, they’re not there to negotiate in good faith. They want their way or the highway. The players need to retract all previous offers and walk away from the table. Once the games start getting canceled, maybe the owners will respond reasonably.
Owners don’t want to miss games but more than willing if they don’t get their way. I am not for either side. Doesn’t effect me at all. But the owners can do what they please. It’s their business. Either agree to my terms or go find work elsewhere.
You say you’re not for either side but for the last couple days in the comments you’ve been gagging on the ownership flesh flute.
Dream GM enjoys repeating himself, saying the same thing in different words because it makes him feel warm and tingly inside.
Example of this please
Ray Davis can’t acknowledge a fan to save his life. He’s all but a hermit when it comes to the Rangers. Hard imagining him on a committee that is supposed to be engaging with another party.
Maybe he’s like Howie Mandell?
Listened to the LSU game all afternoon.
What’s MLB?
Minor league games will be fun. Let’s go Bulls!
Trash pandas!!!!!!!!
Bulls are the best!
Da Bulls
I gave up today and purchased my Opening Day tickets for Toledo. I have been to every Opening Day in Detroit since 1979. That streak comes to an end. I will get to watch Torkelson and Greene on April 5th and will enjoy every minute.
I had been on the owners side, but their rejection of the players’ proposal to 35% for super two is ridiculous. Players made huge concession…but still a 13% player gain. Owners should take it and move on to pre-arb salary levels that is closer to what the owners already offered.
I agree.
The owners should give in on most everything that the players are asking for min sals and these new proposals for arb eligibility and pool size. Their slary money is spent largely on a handful of giant free agents – tame that and their they’re fine. They just need to split the younger and journeymen players from the superstars like the NBA did in 1999 or thereabouts, and the union will cave on CBT.
I agree too. Why not it’s not my money.
Clark is an idiot but Manfred is 10 times worse.
Manfred is fantastic. He does his job exceptionally well.
Manfred is universally thought of as a terrible commissioner. What are you talking about? Lol
He is fantastic. His employer is very pleased.
Time to start a new major league…
USBL – United States Baseball League
XBL – Xtreme Baseball League
AAB – Alliance of American Baseball
ABL – Arena Baseball League
SBBL – Scott Boras Baseball League
Open to other suggestions for names here…
Baseball League Baseball
American Baseball League of Baseball
Sounds good. Whatever name you decide is fine with me. When do you and your 11 billionaire partners plan on starting up?
SLB — Solar League Baseball
Start with four teams.
Inner Division: Earth, Mars
Outer Division: Europa, Titan
#Not Impressed!
‘Insert McKayla Maroney meme here’
I look forward to the refund of our season tickets. It won’t be hard to not go back.
Under how many names are you going to make the same comment?
Looking like March Madness will have two meanings this year.
Seems the owners are giving them the Willy Wonka treatment, so you get nothing, you lose, good day sir.
Baseball thinking is Medieval. — Peter Brand
The players did make a major move today expecting a positive response from the owners. Apparently, the owners didn’t budge creating the hostile environment. It does look like the owners are attempting to break the union. I am a bit disturbed about the negative comments about Clark and Manfred. Neither is the chief negotiator and Manfred is just a tool for the owners. If you sympathize with the players, it is the team of owners who are negotiating who should incur your wrath. I would appreciate knowing who those owners are.
These are the owners involved. It is the labor relations committee which
sets bargaining strategy with Manfred and his staff. Colorado CEO Dick Montfort is chairman, joined by Milwaukee chairman Mark Attanasio, Texas chairman Ray Davis, San Diego vice chairman Ron Fowler, Boston principal owner John Henry, Minnesota chairman Jim Pohlad and New York Yankees managing general partner Hal Steinbrenner.
Mostly a list of scum and parasites on America
The biggest prob from the beginning is that the players feel like theyve been screwed on the last 2-3 CBA’s(and very badly on the last one for sure imho) and approached this negotiation as a means of making up for what theyve lost previously, which is never a good idea in negotiations tbh….meanwhile, naturally, the owners couldnt disagree more with that viewpoint(of course not, why would they)……and until both sides get over there starting positions, theres no chance of a resolution. So tbh i think the best way forward for the players if they truly feel screwed by the previous CBA’s is to walk away and stay away for at least a month, let the owners stew about losing billions while the players give up their billions….as some players r likely to change their tune without a pay cheque, there r def some owners who cant survive a season with no income either…..the Steve Cohens wont be affected, but Tampa, Pittsburgh and other small market owners will want out quickly as well(remember despite no attendance the pandemic still saw them split the billions in tv revenue)
I think all of the owners will be just fine. You don’t get wealthy and keep that wealth without information and planning. Sure they will lose billions but if they choose they will make it up in future years. Not a problem.
The pandemic delay of 2020 taught me that I can live without baseball. I also did so between 1992-98. It just wasn’t part of my life for most of my 20s. I am prepared to just ditch it again. Really losing interest here.
No one cares
I agree. I do feel bad about all the people getting depressed and worked up about this. Life is short imo.
This is so frustrating to see. There has to be give and take from both sides and that is not happening at all. The owners should be thrilled that the union lowered its Super Two ask to 35%. That is a great compromise and they should accept it. The owners should also accept the CBT proposal from the Union. This doesn’t cost owners one additional dime of money. If they want to control how much they spend on payroll then just do it. They don’t need an artificial ‘salary cap’ to control their spending. They just need financial discipline. It’s as if they want the lower CBT to protect themselves from themselves.
So if the owners accept the 35% Super Two and the increased CBT “cap”, the union needs to be more realistic on their other demands. The $100M+ pool for the Top 150 pre-Arb players is ridiculous. That’s an average of 5 pre-Arb players who would be eligible for a bonus. I’m all for younger players who really help the team succeed being eligible for a bonus but there is no way that each season there are 150 of these players in MLB who made such an impact that they deserve a bonus. They are going to get a base pay increase too this year, so the union and the owners need to find a middle ground here. A $50M pool for the Top 60 pre-Arb players seems to be a good compromise (average of 2 players per team). I’m still not sure that there are 60 of these players who truly deserve a bonus, but this is much more reasonable than paying 150 players a bonus just because they are early in their careers. Bonuses need to be earned and not expected.
Lastly, the minimum salary asks from the union needs to be adjusted to a more reasonable amount. A good compromise would $650K year 1, $700K year 2 and $750K year 3. The ‘keeping up with inflation’ take is a complete joke. Very few companies adjust workers salaries on a regular basis to match inflation rates and those that do will not do so for management and their higher salaried employees. Once you start making over $250K in salary, inflation has very little impact on your day to day living. These players are currently making over $500K under current terms. Inflation has not hurt them much at all. Get them to an average of $700K over their first 3 years along with the opportunity to earn a bonus if they perform well and the union should look at this as a big win. Without earning a bonus, this would be a 36% increase in pay and for the 60 pre-Arb players who earn a bonus, their earning potential will double if not triple. That is a huge win for the union.
The Union doesn’t seem to understand that the more these teams pay for younger players, the less they’ll have to spend on the mid-tier veterans. The stars will still get their $20M – $35M per year contracts but the average veteran is going to get squeezed here as each team has a budget and the more they are forced to spend in one area, they are going to make up for by spending less elsewhere.
If cooler heads don’t prevail here, there’s a real chance of this lockout lasting at least 1/2 the season. That would be crippling the overall product. Both sides need adult supervision to get this deal across the finish line.
The owners have been squeezing salaries on mid tier free agents for 4-5 seasons now. That’s nothing new. Team revenue is up over 20% the last ten years, even with the two pandemic affected season, yet league pay actually dropped 4% last year.
Free agents are typically not worth their salary, it is why many people believe young players need to get paid.
Thirty five percent qualifying for super two is very reasonable.
then why were you kept saying the angels needed to sign more, better bullpen pitchers?
Hey Vizion, if you don’t know that by now, then you’re pretty stupid. You don’t seem stupid to me.
There is a huge difference between bullpen pieces and Josh Hamilton and Justine Upton…. But you’re a smart guy, you know that.
Halo11: Didn’t you just post on the other thread like 32% or something on that topic as a reasonable compromise? I agreed as well. It was a good call and I think pretty reasonable.
I wrote a third would be reasonable. I wrote a luxury cap that is more of a speed bump than a barrier is reasonable. I only see three or four teams blowing by this threshold, and why should it?
I hope the product does cripple itself. Owners and players need to understand their selfishness has consequences.
The PA SHOULD walk away from the table. Find a few sites where players can train and scrimmage with each other. Find a streaming service to broadcast those scrimmages and pay for the rights to. Players get paid, and owners can keep their team names, uniforms and empty stadiums. All of which would be of absolutely zero value without the players.
There you go players. You don’t need the MLB
The players want the luxury tax to be a speed bump, the owners want it as a barrier.
The players want a third of the young players to get paid more of what they deserve, the owners want a 5th.
The players are right. These are reasonable demands.
How do you see third year players getting more than they deserve. You got star players in their prime playing for the league minimum. They are trying to stop service time manipulation.
I would suggest you reread what I wrote.
More of what they deserve has a completely different meaning than more than they deserve.
I agree with you on this Halo. This sums it up nicely with the illustrations.
Just cancel the season.
Screw the owners
None of them are my type.
Fun fact from Chelsea Janes of the Washington Post.
“Many players, for example, were infuriated when Manfred said earlier this month that a league economist said owning a baseball team is a less profitable endeavor than investing the same amount in the stock market. When Atlanta Braves’ owner Liberty Media — the only publicly traded company to own a major league team — released its year-end financial reports Friday, the outrage only increased because that report showed Atlanta collected 6 million dollars in revenue per game over those 12 months, according to Forbes.”
And the Braves made a profit of $105M in 2021. What does that tell you about the owners!
So I could buy the braves for 2 billion dollars and make 100 million a year on that investment? Sounds fantastic. Anyone know if they are for sale?
Actually you would’ve purchased the Braves for $400M and made $100M profit per year with your team value now at 5 times what you paid for it. So, what you wrote is not exactly portraying the picture accurately or fully.
The reason the owners want to cap payrolls is because they cannot sell their teams at their current values unless their profits skyrocket exponentially like their valuations have. So, in effect, ownership is now desperately trying to push down payroll to increase profits to maximum, so they can sell their team nearest the $2B mark and walk away with more billions upon billions. It’s not a secret. I’m not judging this motive either, just stating what it is.
Well I didn’t buy then. The value has been somewhat stagnant the past 5 years. So moving forward could one expect a 100 million revenue and 100 million franchise increase each year or will one or both increase significantly?
Yes, that is absolutely correct, and like a stick at its peak you wouldn’t buy now. I assert that valuation cannot be controlled or predicted, and here is my issue with ownership:
They are taking measures, at all costs, to try to match these two opposing concepts. One is concrete, predictable (relatively speaking), & controllable, while the other (valuation) is not any of those things for the owners as was evidenced by the exponential growth that occurred after teams were sold for a relative pittance.
So, I go back to the fact that they are using rules/contracts to further their agenda of chasing the gap created by an unpredictable exponential explosion in valuation which is not a good way to run the business, imo.
I am not saying it invalidates your point that the current profit – value ratio is relatively low for someone who want to buy the…..Braves right now.
But, I am saying you cannot take what has occurred over historical growth periods in an incredibly condensed period of time and justify owners actions by stating their profits don’t measure up, because that’s a bit misleading. They made good profits until their businesses came into extraordinarily good profits through TV contracts, which created the valuation-profit conundrum of which you now speak.
Owners are using the fact they made record deals creating record growth to say they need record profit now too. Again, I’m simply stating what is…
Just trying to find out why keep or buy a team? I get it when they were a few hundred million and internet was getting big. Now just trying to figure it out. Do they like it as a safe investment? Is a game changer in the horizon? Or do they just like owning a team as a profitable hobby? Thanks for your thoughts on it.
Well, I think that’s precisely where we agree. That’s the cause behind this. They can’t because profits aren’t enough to sell right now so nobody (except a Cohen/Mark Cuban ) would buy. So they have to keep it or risk losing more than they want. Many wouldn’t pay that much for that profit. Yeah, man, I am totally tracking.
And I appreciate the discussion as well. Lots of good people on here with a bunch of good (and different) perspectives. I enjoy the discussion.
Yeah good talk. Not sure where we disagree though. Besides you seem to care and I don’t. If the owners raised the minimum salary to 1 million or said we are lowering it to 300 grand I don’t care. 4 team lotto, 7 team, 16 team don’t care. 15 million pool 150 million pool don’t care. Both sides want as much as they can get. I get it and fine with it. Like someone said somewhere awhile back. I buy my ticket to see the movie. I don’t care how Thor Captain America and Disney divide it up.
Cool, man. I care only because I want to see ball. I love baseball, it’s great experience with my son, and I blame both sides for being wholly unreasonable for this. Who gets the money? I really don’t care as long as they agree.
But, it’s not the most important thing in life by a long shot and you’re smart for not caring. Less stress.
I love baseball. Want to see ball. And will see ball. Not only do I get to see my kids play I get to hit and pitch against them. Other than that a bigger lose to me would be the minor leagues. 2020 was my 2021. As a kid I could care less about minor leagues. Few friends and teammates got baseball jobs and got me interested. No longer much of a fan. I watch games now as a coach and scout would. Was a Yankee fan though when I was just a regular fan. Not sure if you are or if that’s the name of your yacht. I feel good about you seeing mlb in 2022. Would be a bold decision to miss income and be another year older when you hit free agency. And if don’t think you are getting paid enough now, wait until the owners lose an entire year of income and lose fans. I think there will be baseball.
Dream and Clip- I thoroughly enjoy our previous discussions and reading your posts/takes. Hold everything you value a little bit closer; I need Tommy John now and can’t pitch to the kids in the backyard anymore. Things can always be worse though! Cheers fellas!
GM: I am a Yankee homer ……. Yep, through and through. First team I ever liked at 4 years old when I saw Dave Winfield play, & loved ‘em ever since. Only break I took was 3 years when they went on strike and pissed me off in ‘94.
You’re a good guy, GM. I enjoy your points even when they’re different. I like reading and discussing differences with people that are mature and capable, like you, because I always learn something, each and every time.
It’s awesome you get to play ball with your kids like that – that is THE most important thing in life, no doubt. You’re truly blessed to have that and it’s great to hear that you do.
Gwynning: You crack me up in some of your responses on here, man. You have a quick wit and it’s funny bro.
It sucks you need TJS though. I need shoulder surgery, so not as bad as yours, but to lose that time being down is brutal for me. You’re right, could be worse, man. Right now we’ve had just about everything that could go wrong, go wrong. But, we are persevering through faith and staying the course because, as you said, it could always be worse.
Full sail and stay on course Skipper Clip! Good luck with the bum socket, amigo.
JayHeck: The Braves made a profit of $105M last year? Is that true? Their CBT player payroll was $172.6M last year according to Cot’s. If that is true, the Braves owners paid the players way more than they paid themselves!! If that is true, I can see why owners don’t want to give players more.
The Braves are owned by a publicly traded company. They paid their stockholders.
and it looks like the players got paid more than the stockholder owners
Hey, MILB-TV is still just $21, or whatever. Wouldn’t you rather watch Adley catch than whatever AAAA guy the O’s are going to start the season with?
nah, that money also goes to MLB owners and they pay minor league players $10k for a season; if the NHL can pay their minor league players $120k… baseball owners are scum
Maybe they should play hockey instead of baseball then.
“The point is, ladies and gentlemen, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right.”
—Gordon Gekko, “Wall Street”, as exemplified currently by both Rob Manfred and Tony Clark.
Uh wrong. Blame is not even amongst those two
I merely suggested that both were being greedy; I never said they were equally greedy.
Another example of Rob and Tony doing a fantastic job.
At least we will have a minor league season!
The owners will get their finances under control if all of the MLBPA players sit out the season. We can play with AAA players. In a year half of the current major leaguers will be out of baseball. This would be far cheaper than the current CBA.
The problem is that the players with contracts will still be paid.
No they won’t, not until they start playing games and if they go on strike it stops. After that. They will have to live off their union dues, that is the players that have paid them
So you prefer your owner to your team? Weird boot to lick, but ok
You seem entranced with boot licking? Get help.
If mlb plays baseball without mlbpa players eventually most will be back.
Show me how out of touch you are, without showing me how out of touch you are MLB baseball.
Dont both sides know that they are ruining the game of baseball!!
They just don’t care
I love baseball but it’s never been the most important part of my life. At 73 I have many interest to keep my attention and be happy. Brave fan since 1959.
The Milwaukee Braves were great to watch, You have about 6 years on me!
Oh, grow up!
Hold the line, owners. And DON’T GIVE IN ANYMORE. Stop being weak!!!
Wow what a dumb take. How’s billionaire boot taste? These guys are all parasites.
Boot licking again, Kyle? Really?
He’s literally cheering on grifters (the owners), meanwhile the players take 100% of the injuries and plate appearances, while paying 50+% in taxes.
Kylegocougs–50% taxes, no way. please stop the BS. 50% in taxes.
I don’t know about anyone else, or if you just knew I tasted billionaire boot as a side dish, Kylecougar, but mmmm, is it ever deeeelish. Lemme tell you, son. If you ever get a chance to sample some bilboot (that’s what we in “the biz” call your low-rent billionaire boot), you’d eat that bilboot like Betty Crocker on pancake Sunday. Mmmm, tasty.
But other than that’s it’s just okay, like most other boots.
I like the stop being weak part.
I liked the HOLD THE LINE take. I pictured the Owners all dressed up like Leonidas and his Spartans, sitting at the table of discussion and hamming it up.
Mud is not part of a well balanced diet.
Manfred does not have the votes for what the players want. This article does not discuss what I think is the most important and that is an agreement on increasing minimum salaries.
The minimum salary is the only major improvement the players can expect. and say 20 to 25 million to be distributed by the union to younger players on a merit based formula are two pretty good adds.
Repeat the small and middle market teams control what the owners can offer and that is the way it should be.
ROFL does anyone really care?
Apparently most mlbtraderumors commenters care.
Bring in the replacement players. New pay policy. You play, you get paid. We don’t need injury-prone players in the game.
Right. No guaranteed contracts. A hard salary cap of $100M. You go on the IL you only get half pay.
This is beyond absurd now. Even when the players give ground on stuff they’re asking for because the owners don’t follow previously set rules, the owners piss themselves. Looking like no money to MLB this year.
Speaking of, don’t forget to cancel automatic renewal of MLBTV before 2/28. No reason to let the owners hold our money on top of everything else.
People actually pay for that? Baseball fans are really old.
I remember when I thought $120 was a lot of money. I’d say things will get easier for you, but I’ve seen the stuff you say.
Exactly my point. I can’t remember ever thinking $120 was a lot of money.
Your point was that you don’t pay for it because it’s not a lot of money? Ok. Good one.
I wasn’t making a point. I was making a statement. If someone thought I was making a the point it would have been that I was asking if people actually pay for it. Wasn’t relevant if I paid for it or not.
“Exactly my point” – you, not all that long ago
I get it. Words are hard and you’re trying to ‘win’. You’ll just have to do much better.
Exactly my point was about the baseball fans being old.
Going forward I will have to say old and stupid.
“I wasn’t making a point”
“Exactly my point was about the baseball fans being old”
You know what you’ve said before is visible, right? Like I said, do better.
Old and stupid
Aww. You can’t think of anything to say but not saying anything isn’t an option. That must suck for you.
That must have been an uncomfortable 15 minutes
I know, that’s, like, almost long enough for an angry stare down contest.
1994 is holding on line 1.
It’s like watching a bunch of teenagers messing around on a train track and then seeing a high seed train approaching. They don’t see it and you can’t do a thing about it.
Maybe at some point people will realize how actually unimportant baseball is, or how overglorified athletes are. People should stop paying to go to games for a while, let the players and owners suffer alike. Nobody “needs” baseball.
Players should get together and form a legit sand lot league through YouTube and see how much money they can make. Be better if baseball was run by baseball players and maybe some accountants.
Not that I don’t like your idea. But another suggestion is they can just sign the owners offer and go make much much much much…… More money
At least get their own app. Opps i forgot its for baseball fans so website. No reason to give google a big chunk of profit.
Owners are not interested in any deal that benefits both sides, and has. I interest in keeping the fans satisfied. Owners want to ram a deal down the players throats. Stand strong players and cancel the season.
Hope Scherzer enjoys losing $232,000 for every regular season game that’s canceled.
Hope the Mets enjoy paying a 40 plus something Scherzer $232,000 a game.
Scherzer has made more than $220 million in his career, not counting endorsement revenue or investments. He’s not even going to notice that money is missing.
The owners are in the wrong here. Negotiating isn’t just taking a stand, and not budging. The players are trying but the owners are being just greedy. If there is a single game lost, blame the owners, not the players. I love the game of baseball and will miss seeing it played, but this needs to be a partnership between owners and players. Unfortunately the owners want to dictate and not give anything back. It’s unfortunate really.
I highly recommend players forming a league of their own.
And you know what? If that happened there would STILL be labor disputes.
I’d love to see them try. My guess is that it would be both a wallet and eye opening experience for them.
I won’t blame either side if games are cancelled. And I also won’t care if games are cancelled.
Go ask your employer for more money. And hopefully they say yes. But if they tell you it’s not going to happen then just keep asking and see how that goes for you.
Been a hard-core Yankee fan all my life. 2020 was horrible when it took so long to agree and it resulted in a 60 day season. This is unacceptable, i’m close to being at the point where I say I couldn’t care less. As long as I have Fantasy Baseball bring up the minor leaguers and f@$k these greedy ba&$@$ds
Pirates vs Orioles world series sounds good to me.
1979. Last great year for the Pirates. Really good song by the Smashing Pumpkins
Taco Mac was also founded in 1979.
Let me sum up the players proposal for all of you:
1. Pay the top players more money (higher CBT thresholds with reduced penalties).
2. Pay mid-level players more money (more players entering arbitration sooner)
3. Pay young players more money (higher minimum salaries).
4. Punish teams for trying to create a window of contention in the future (draft lottery).
And they can’t understand why Owners won’t just roll over?
The players proposed the exact same tax rates as they’ve had for five years.
The CBT threshold goes up every season. The proposal is $20M over inflation.
The minimum salary goes up every season.
The draft lottery does no such thing.
Owners “just roll over” ? With the draconian CBT penalties they’re proposing? Absurd.
As a fan of the Pirates, I could honestly care less where the CBT ends up. What difference is there between $250 million and $225 million when my team won’t even spend half that if and when they have a contender in the next few years. The Rays and A’s have shown there’s a path to winning without being competitive in payroll.
My point is the Union wants to undue their own mistakes over the last few CBA agreements in one CBA. Prioritize your desires and leave the less important matters for the next agreement so we can have baseball. That’s what I’m looking for from the Players.
So basically same time same place next year?
I think it becoming increasingly clear, while it takes two to tango and both sides have some unreasonable demands, the owners are the bigger problem.
Just cancel the season already. Give us some closure. Put the last nail in the coffin and drop that sum b in the hole.
Players are getting testy, looks like they are finally negotiating !
Well, they did say no drug tests for now…
MLB.TV accounts all auto renew on March 1st, so if you subscribe don’t forget to cancel by Feb 28th. Just canceled mine, which sucks, but here we are.
Thank you for the heads up. I had no idea they automatically auto-renewed. Turn mine off.
I want to support the owners through their financial hardship so just going to let it ride.
Let me arbitrate
After I throughly curse out both sides I will settle their differences
Unless they both throw me out first after what I tell them I think of each side
You know in the movies when someone grabs onto a moving car and the driver rams the hanging person into another object to knock them off?
That’s been the owners plan all along.
Drag their feet and negotiate in bad faith and assume the players will cave as the deadline approached.
Seems like it’s largely working.
If the players aren’t willing to damage the game, they will lose.
The owners are fully prepared to damage the game, if need be.
Pretty sure both sides just want the most money they can get and can care less about the game.
There’s a massive war going on, yet these trash billionaires and primadonna millionaires can’t get along. Cool.
gotta wonder what the owners as a group think of losing opening day / week / month – as opposed to their unified voice refusing to budge. Ive got to think close to 1/2 the teams are open to raising payrolls by a couple million to pay younger guys and the bonus pools, and maybe 10 open to increasing the cap.
Owners think that any lost revenue will be made up at the expense of future free agent players.
Pay based on performance for all players. Throw that on the table and let’s hear what kind’ve excuses are made
cancel the sport for good
Hostile? I’ll show them what hostile really is.
I’m ashamed to say that my favorite sport is turning into/turned into a joke. In a time where so many issues are taking over the world, baseball had a real chance to become a “savior” for many.
Sometimes the people that make the most money are the dumbest people.
My how things change over time.
If it weren’t for owners who were willing to create and operate teams and stadiums, there would be no MLB today.
Then the players, who were being taken advantage of, got a union going and mostly thanks to Marvin Miller they finally had bargaining rights.
But now, the entire system, just like everything else, has become corrupted.
The only way out of this lockout is for both sides to bite the bullet a little. Compromise!
Here’s hoping for the Sunday talks. Because the next day is the 28th!
I believe that the players are starting to finally negotiate and their is hope .
Substitute cave for negotiate
Lock them both out
something we’re not getting here if the owners were mad after solid concessions when they weren’t in the past.
I think the players were the ones mad because the owners didn’t like the concessions.
It says “the owners reacted badly” and then the players were outraged after that.
Reminds me of how my friends and I renamed “Rage Against the Machine” as “Slightly Tiffed at the Machine” in their later years… age makes anger pass swiftly.
Lololol… awesome. Alright, Gwyinning, from this point forward you are hereby hired (for free, of course) and must continue to participate in our threads consistently. We need this humor more.
Like I said. 4-6 weeks of the season will be lost and the players will whine and want to be paid fully. Whiners playing a game for a living making millions….
Cancel the season. Let them go get a job in reality.
I can see Max Scherzer driving Uber in NYC.
I can see Max getting a TV reality show of him driving an Uber in NYC and making millions off the show.
Passenger: Hey… Aren’t you that baseball player Max Schumann of the New York Mets? I think I’ve seen you on TV before.
Max: Yeah, man. I’m out of work right now. I moved my family here from several states away and show up for my first day of work. The gates are shut and the lights are out. What da… ?! My boss who hired me won’t even take my calls. Buck won’t call me back either. Rent is expensive here and so is matzo ball soup. Got bills to pay, bro. 76th Street and Madison Avenue, right?
Passenger: I hear you, dude. Covid killed my work too. Luckily, it’s opened back up and the ladies are back in full force with stacks and stacks. I won’t lie, it’s been good. I’m a dancer at Chippendales.
Max: Tell me more…
YBC: You got me cracking up with the visual of that. You must’ve put some thought into some episodes, huh?
I do wonder, did Max get the friends and family discount coupon from the dancer?
You act like the majority of union members aren’t already millionaires. If money gets tight, they can sell a Ferrari.
If money “gets tight” they’ve done something terribly wrong
I’m fully anticipating megaphones and bushels of tomatoes present at tomorrow’s meeting.
Tailor-made for an Always Sunny episode…
I cancelled my mlb account last week.
I am also not going to attend any games in person this year.
Same here. Just going to watch old baseball games on YouTube and sandlot on dvd 3 times a week. Weekends I will be listening to LSU games on the radio.
Maybe just a good old fashioned duel at ten paces…
No games no cash….let them beg the fans to come back…
Set the Luxury tax at 225 million this season. Have it go up 2 million per season ending at 235 million. Until the Luxury tax is agreed upon, nothing else will get done. The bonus pool, start it at 40 and have it go up to 50 million.
They should walk away. The owners and Manfred are horrible stewards of the game. They want watered down playoffs, ridiculous in-game changes, less incentive for teams to play well, the continuation of player service time manipulation, and penalize teams that spend money for better players while encouraging tanking, and continuing to rather overpay on players past their prime instead of paying players in their prime what they are worth.
You walk away. I want my paycheck.
It’s pretty clear that the owners are not interested in negotiating. Their position is that it is their way or the highway. I don’t take sides between the owners and players, but I wouldn’t blame the players if they walk away. They probably should unless the owners come up with some significant movement right out of the gate tomorrow.
Agree. Players have moved on their stances more than the owners.
No play no pay
LOL, the AAA players will make more than the Major Leaguers!
Not only I wouldn’t blame the players I would applaud them. Sacrificing millions of their own money just so the richer billionaires can keep 30 million instead of paying the not as rich billionaires. And standing strong so instead of teams trying to tank for the #1 pick they can tank for lottery odds.
I mean I get that both sides want to get the best deals for themselves but they are just so narrow-minded and tunnel-visioned to see that the world is still suffering from Covid and there are lives being lost from the war and etc.
It is time to wake up and realize there are bigger and more important things in life other than baseball.
Like money
The guys negotiating for the Players get paid whether there is an Agreement or not and the Players involved on the Executive Committee have made millions for years — they’re in no hurry.
The MLBPA shot for the moon. The lawyers and accountants advising the League have drawn a line in concrete that they aren’t crossing.
Young Players are afraid if they cave they will be ostracized by the rich vets who can enjoy a spring on the beach.
$50,000,000 question: how much Pay will the Players lose before caving?
Advice: you may end up with nothing and give the Game another black eye. Take the milllions being given to you and Play Ball!
Wannabe owner?
Break the MLBPA union!!!
Pathetic fool.
Been a season ticket holder for 12 straight seasons. Not this year though! And probably not next either. I definitely have better things to do. They probably won’t notice my absence, but protests are in the heart
Does anyone believe this?
I do, because I am as equally fed up!
Screw the owners.
Carry on.
Rather screw the players. They have much better bodies.
Wow you would think the owners would compromise on something. It’s called five and take and meeting somewhere in the middle. I feel like the owners are being a little greedy here tbh.
I also think Clark should resign after this and honestly as the commissioner of the league I’m not sure what Manfred can do but what he is doing is an absolute joke. He might as well be paid as a spokesperson or reporter
The players should start their own league and figure out how to fairly compensate themselves. That would be a great reality show
“He might as well be paid as a spokesperson” He’s not that already?
I propose a 20% drop on ticket prices, parking, concessions, merchandise and anything that relates to the fan experience!
I’m sure the owners would take that in a heartbeat for you to watch non-40-man roster guys play during the lockout.
I still fail to see how giving a year of service time for ROY is going to DETER service time manipulation. You’d want your guys to not get it so you’ll push back their call up as much as possible. Give them 2 months of service time instead of 2 years.
So, let’s get this straight:
1. CBT overage rates increase to 45/62/95, and draft pick compensation remains for years 2 and 3.
2. CBT remains lower than increase from inflation, and is nowhere near the increase in revenue the game has seen in the last decade of tv contracts.
3. Minimum salary remains the lowest for the big 3 US sports leagues (NFL, NBA, MLB).
4. No changes to arbitration, and wonky get a draft pick if one player wins Rookie of the Year as answers to service time manipulation.
5. Draft pick lottery tied to 14-team playoff when a deal had likely been struck already. This was the solution to tanking.
6. Patches sold on uniforms.
7. Here’s the universal DH we all agreed to last year, but refused to implement in 2021 so owners could say they gave something to the players.
For this, the owners locked out the players, refused to pay front line staff, didn’t make any offers for almost two months to ‘speed up’ negotiations, and imposed an artificial deadline of Monday to start the season on time???
The owners never wanted to make a deal. They still don’t.
Shame.
No guaranteed contracts
I’m about done with it all. I hope the players lose an entire season’s worth of income.
And I hope the owners lose an entire season’s worth of revenue. Fingers crossed we both get what we want!
Owners will easily find much more profitable investments than “baseball”. Checkmate.
Nail salons?
Massage parlors
Vaccines?
Discounts on Russian oligarchs yachts?
I’m sure this whole thing is being driven by the mid and small market teams, just like ’94-’95. They’re crying poverty while raking in millions and don’t want to see the goose that lays the golden eggs killed in this CBA.
On top of that, anyone who knows the history of professional baseball understands that the owners have always tried to jam the players financially at every opportunity. For those reasons, I support the union.
That being said, Marvin Miller has to be rolling in his grave at the incompetence of Tony Clark and the current MLBPA negotiating team. It shouldn’t be too difficult to get over on Manfred, but somehow, he looks like a genius compared to Tony Clark.
MLBPA should makes its last, best offer, and be prepared to walk away if the league doesn’t show substantial movement on its part.
A likely correct view. The small- and medium-sized markets control the game right now.
UPDATED NL East predictions for 96-game season…
Braves: 56-40
Phillies: 50-46
Marlins: 45-51
Nationals: 39-57
Mets: 3-93
Really? Come on man, you can’t be serious. The Mets will win that many?
This is going to get ugly. The players will need to not play to get what they want. Owners be spoiled, time to pu them in their place. There will be blood
(symbolically of course)…..
I can’t believe these idiots are going to screw this up again! Truly, baseball owners and baseball players are some of the dumbest human beings on the planet.
Your base audience is getting older, your target audience isn’t very big to begin with and so you do this to make yourself MORE irrelevant with them? Think these fools have ever heard the story of the golden goose?
Amazing, absolutely amazing. Stupid fighting with stupid to prove who is more stupid……AGAIN!
Heard someone was picked up and thrown through a table WWE style.
Oh yeah, brother!!
Players: We want this in the new CBA because we feel we got shafted on the last one.
Owners: Oh yeah.. well this what we want.
Players: You’re nuts.. that is the opposite of what we want
Owners: alright.. here’s a couple of million
Players: No.. we need to make up for the last CBA and the bad job we did.
Owners: That’s not how it works.
Players: But you bent us over last time and….
Owners: Exactly..
Players: What?
Owners: You caved last time so we’re pretty sure we can get you to do it again..
One thing I would be on board for is incentivized performance paid players. How many times is a player in a contract year’ and their priority is performance to get paid? How many long term contracts have been considered beneficial? Very small percentages. Who pays at the pump for the salaries? You and I. If players worked towards performance each year to get paid it would eliminate many bad contracts and maximize payrolls production for performance. Why do elite players with elite contracts average up to $500,000 per homerun? Was that homerun really worth 1/2 million dollars to watch? If there was a performance only based payment, players would not just play for a contract year and back off afterwards for teams and fans to pay the bill. There would be a higher return on each players performance as each year would be the best season of production from the player(s). Payrolls would fluctuate, player contract security as well as the union would not go for it. Less than 10% of all long term mega contracts have ever panned out.
The league is trying the resolve of the union. Pure and simple. The players must call their bluff. Come the close of business Monday, the union should advise their members to go back home. Additionally, all concessions rescinded and begin negotiations from square one. Only when the owners recognize the resolve and commitment of the union will there or should there be negotiations moving forward. It’s going to hurt, no doubt. The industry will survive because baseball has been transformed from a mere game to an entertainment giant. Fans in general will return for the entertainment. Those that passionately love the game will feel betrayed.
Colleges have started playing games. Keeping an eye on 3 players, 2 are tearing it up so far.
These are the worst seasons where seasons are shortened and not 162 games, it affects the stats, and I hate that, because I love the stats.
Owners: You know that the “baseball” season could be completely cancelled and that the country would hardly care or even notice (completely culturally irrelevant) and you also know that you could easily find much better ROI’s than MLB. MLB players are already spoiled and treated great for playing a game with a stick and a ball and mittens 7-8 months per year and you know it. Lifetime benefits after 6 weeks on a MLB roster, many of them receive signing bonuses (frequently very large bonuses) before ever playing their first professional game, entry level salary is in the top 1% of incomes, average salary (more than $4 million!!!) is in the top 1/10th of 1% of incomes, playoff bonuses, awards bonuses, etc. Enough is enough. Hold the line! Stop giving in!! BREAK THE UNION!!!
As much as I love baseball and will miss it, i think this is even better theater.. With everything going on in the world, to see 2 sides fight over who is going to get more of my cable tv payments, without doing anything to try and reduce my cable bill, is theater I can’t miss.
Two groups I care about most, hotels and their employees in Arizona and Florida, and minor leaguers and their plight, aren’t being addressed..
Fight long, fight hard, this is better than baseball itself. I’ll just buy milb tv instead, read these fun headlines, and life will move on.
piss on the owners and mlbpa, time to promote the fans.
New league rules:
league minimum-$1m
league maximum-$25m
ticket prices- Cut in half, b transferable tickets
Concessions/parking-half
Fans win, players still rich, owners still billionaires
flame away
* non-transferable tickets
“Little Jerry!”
“Kramer!”
“Stop the fight!”
“Tamale!”
You hate him because he’s doing more with your name than you ever will!
@Patrick
Make the players all free agents every year. Only one year guaranteed contract should be allowed. Then you will get market rates. The players wages would collapse with every injury or poor statistic. Older players would be out of the league by 30. The CBA does not create market rates. It enables long-term, non-compete agreements which block the promotion of younger, cheaper players You are just upset that the owners have decided to do what the players do well …. hang together rather than fight among themselves.
Bob- Charles O. Finley, the colorful, controversial former owner of the Oakland A’s, suggested making players free agents every year. You can imagine the competitive imbalance that would result, as well as the number of players changing team every season.
The recent CBA’s allow for market rates only after a player has six years of service time. Until then, they are stuck at minimum salary for three years, and three more years of arbitration- with only one team bidding on their salary.
Owners are insisting that as few players as possible be eligible for arbitration. Arbitration is a fairer way to determine player salary in the absence of free agency.
Worse, they are restricting how much teams can spend on player salaries. A salary cap is the one thing most offensive to the players, other than eliminating free agency or arbitration- both of which the owners proposed during this round of bargaining.
I have no problem with the owners sticking together to help the game, or even themselves. What is disturbing here is that the owners WANT to cancel part of the season, just as the did in 2020, so they can stick it to the players and they don’t have to pay them as much. They are willing to screw fans and players to get their way, and there is NO chance that they will ever get their salary cap. Their tactics are rotten.
Go watch a minor league game, or a college game, or a high school game, or a little league game. If you like baseball it’s baseball. If you like billionaires fighting with millionares give your money to MLB.
A couple times each year, we walk to the local High School to catch an afternoon game. The field is manicured and beautiful, the players are pumped to play FOR FUN and we the spectators get a nice, sunny and heckuva free CIF-worthy experience. Great recommendation!!
The most beautiful game in the world and these greedy blankety blanks on both sides continually try to destroy it. Totally shameless greed. There’s no other way to describe it.