In a meeting this afternoon, Major League Baseball presented its latest offer to the Players’ Association as part of the ongoing collective bargaining negotiations. The meeting lasted less than an hour, according to Joon Lee of ESPN, with the players coming away “unimpressed” — a word used by Lee, Tim Healey of Newsday and Bob Nightengale of USA Today. On the other hand, Michael Silverman of the Boston Globe reports that the league is “underwhelmed by underwhelmed MLBPA.”
Some of the details of MLB’s 130-page proposal are shared by The Athletic’s Evan Drellich and ESPN’s Jesse Rogers. There was very slight movement on the bonus pool issue, something that had come up in previous bargaining sessions. The league had previously agreed to the MLBPA proposal for a bonus pool, funded by central revenues, to reward pre-arbitration players. Despite agreeing on the proposal, the league and the union have remained far apart on the size. The players initially proposed a total of $105MM, with the league countering by offering $10MM. The players later dropped their ask to $100MM, with the owners today increasing their offer to $15MM.
There was also slight modification to MLB’s proposal regarding the Competitive Balance Tax thresholds. Previously, the plan was to have a limit of $214MM for 2022 through 2024, increasing to $216MM in 2025 and $220MM in 2026. Today’s proposal retained that $214MM number for 2022 and 2023, bumped to $216MM in 2024, and then $218MM and $222MM in the final two years of the deal. The players, on the other hand, have been looking for the threshold to be in the $245MM-260MM range for the five years covered by the deal.
The proposed tax rates for surpassing these thresholds hasn’t changed since MLB’s last proposal, although the draft pick compensation was slightly modified. Under the previous proposal, teams surpassing the first threshold (spending less than $234MM on a proposed $214MM tax threshold) would have to surrender a third round draft pick, though that was dropped to no draft penalty for today’s offer. However, teams would still be paying the same 50 percent tax on every dollar spent within that $214-$234MM area.
As for the league minimum salary, the league made two proposals, one of them involving a flat amount of $630K for all pre-arbitration players. The second proposal involved a tiered system, with players making $615K until they reach one year of service time, $650K for between one and two years’ service time and $725K for those between two and three years’ service time. This is only a slight modification of the previous proposal, in which the tiers were $615K, $650K and $700K, meaning the last tier was the only one to change.
Another proposed change was in relation to MLB’s previous proposal for dealing with service time manipulation. Under the previous proposal, top-100 ranked prospects that were selected to a team’s Opening Day roster could net their team an extra draft pick by finishing in the top five in voting for a major award (the MVP, Cy Young, or Rookie Of The Year) during one of his arbitration-eligible seasons. Under the league’s latest proposal, a team can receive two picks if the player finishes in the top three of voting for multiple major awards. Rogers uses the example of Kris Bryant, as if the Cubs had kept Bryant on their roster for their entirety of the 2015 and 2016 seasons, Chicago would have earned two bonus picks for Bryant’s awards success (the 2015 ROY, the 2016 NL MVP).
In some smaller proposed changes, MLB also proposed a limit on how many times a player could be optioned each year at five. There is currently no limit on how many times a player with options could be shuttled between the majors and the minors, and teams have increasingly taken advantage of this non-rule by constantly moving pitchers back and forth from Triple-A to always ensure fresh relievers are available for in-game maneuvers.
While a five-option cap would still allow teams quite a bit of flexibility for promotions and demotions, it would at least cut down on extreme situations, like how the Rays recalled and demoted right-hander Louis Head 12 times last season. MLB’s proposal for a five-option cap comes with some as yet unknown strings attached, Drellich tweets, which concerns the MLBPA. The union is in favor of a limit to the number of options in general, but their proposal would cap the number of moves at four.
In regards to the amateur draft, the league’s new proposal would reintroduce the “draft and follow” concept, where teams could draft a player and send them to junior college for a year before signing them. In addition, prospects who submit to a pre-draft physical would be guaranteed 75% of their slot value and cannot be “failed” by the physical. This is seemingly in response to Kumar Rocker, who was drafted by the Mets with the 10th overall pick last year, but the two sides didn’t reach a deal since the Mets were concerned by an elbow issue that arose in a post-draft physical. Bob Nightengale adds that the proposal includes an extra $23MM for bonuses given to drafted players and international signings.
If one wants to be optimistic about all of this, it can be said that progress was made and that the league made clear which items it considers negotiable and which it won’t budge on, thus laying the groundwork for the players to come back with their next counter. On the pessimistic side of things, the two sides remain far apart, and the league’s proposed changes in this latest offer are very modest, especially considering the ticking clock that is the scheduled start of Spring Training. Prior to the lockout, pitchers and catchers were scheduled to report this week and games were set to begin on February 26, and the possibility of a deal coming together before then is difficult to fathom.
This inevitably leads to the question of whether or not the regular season will begin as scheduled. It’s often been speculated that a deal would need to be in place by around March 1, in order for teams to have one month to conduct their remaining offseason business and for the players to have a proper Spring Training in advance of Opening Day on March 31. In relation to all this, Drellich reports that the MLB today presented the MLBPA with a calendar outlining when a deal would need to be in place in order to avoid such delays or cancellations. The exact specifications of this calendar aren’t known, though as Drellich notes, it’s unclear if the players would agree with this outlay from the league. As for next steps, Nightengale said that the MLBPA “is expected to submit counter proposals within a week.”
RIP
Soccer Fever – Catch It!
I don’t get why the players are so “unimpressed” with this offer. It’s na win for them in every category. Outside of maybe(? It wasn’t mentioned) expanded playoffs, the owners get nothing from the players but they are giving on several fronts.
$630k league minimum may not be what the players want but it’s $60k more than they are getting now. The draft pick compensation teams get for top 5 finishers who start the season opening day could be huge for service time. Teams will be trying their best to get draft picks by having one of the 10 players who start the season opening day and finish top 5 in ROY voting every single year. On top of that they will be trying to potentially get the draft picks for the up to 60 more players who start the season opening day and finish top 5 in CY or MVP voting during any one of their 3 arbitration eligible seasons. That’s 80 players every year teams could benefit from starting the season opening day and it will probably end up being much more than 80 rookies starting opening day because teams will be trying to get those 80 rewards every year even if they know not all of them can.
Changes in the CBA are supposed to be “modest” every time. If the modest change works or helps the first time then you make another modest change in the same direction every CBA. They eventually build up to massive change. Expecting massive change in one CBA is just ridiculous. Nothing works like that. Not in other sports and usually not in any other aspect of life either.
Players like Kumar Rocker getting guaranteed 75% of slot even if they are injured, a $60k increase in league minimum salary, the implementation of any pre-arb bonus pool money whether it be $15 million or any other number is a win for the players. Once you add in the fact that teams will get rewarded for calling up players earlier with up to a potential 80 different players every single season… It looks like a big win for the players to me. That should really help service time manipulation. Teams are going to be hurt if they miss out on draft picks because they kept a good player down in the minors to start the season. Now they have real incentive to bring them up. I don’t know how much change the players expect in one CBA but this should be plenty.
Hammer, the players are just playing power games.
I don’t see any evidence of their using logic.
They’ll just stonewall until they feel they’ve gotten their way totally and then they may decide to stop and play baseball.
.
When does the Cornhole season start? The only thing more boring than watching a Cornhole match is listening or reading about the updates on the baseball negotiations. Where have you gone Joe Dimaggio?
Split the difference on the pre arb bonus at 57,5 mil, instead of screwing around at 5 each session. The players will lose big in the war of public opinion. They are naming millions, while a lot of the public is hurting big time.
The average payroll in 2011?
Roughly $93 million
The average payroll in 2021?
Roughly $104 million
Payrolls have jumped about 12% in a
decade.
Meanwhile, the average value of a
team has jumped 365% ($523m to
$1.91b) in that same timespan.
It’s always cornhole season
Shut up.
Team values are not real unless you sell.
You are not a millionaire if your house is worth 1 million dollars unless you sell it. Values go up and down
@dustylambchops: What you said is the dirty secret some people don’t want to admit. They say, “This owner is worth $3 billion dollars! Why is he keeping his payroll lower than I think it should be?!” The owners net worth includes their assets. The vast majority of most MLB owners net worth comes from the asset value of the team itself. They can’t very well pay the team payroll if they have to sell the team to do it, can they?
There are bad owners out there. I can specifically think if 2. The A’s owner is worth more than twice as much as the Astros owner but the Astros outspend him all the time and win more. The Pirates owner is also egregious. Instead of all these CBA rule changes I suggest MLB follow suite with the NBA in forced ownership sale. NBA forced the LA Clippers owner to sell his team. If there are billionaires out there willing to buy the A’s or Pirates at market value and spend more money to help them win… I think MLB should force the current lame owners of those teams to sell. They get billions in cash for selling. Massive profit for them. The teams get better, too. If you don’t want to spend money on your team you should have to sell it to someone for market value who does.
Dustyslamchops, please, please, PLEASE show me an example of a team who’s value wasn’t worth more when sold than when purchased. I’ll wait…
@SuperSloth: That is besides the point. They definitely can sell the team for more but they can’t use that money for the payroll. Everything you hear about how much owners are worth is tied to what the team is worth. That cash isn’t just laying around unless they sell the team. If they sell the team it doesn’t matter how much cash they have because they won’t be the ones paying the players. It shocks me how so few people understand this. If you want to judge an owner you can’t consider his assets. You need to look at his liquid. Anything short of that is trying to form an opinion based on useless information.
Owners can take out loans against their capital appreciation.
Real movement will occur when one side presents an if/when proposition on the specific issue. For example on the pond pool issue, each side has to date adjusted their offer by $5m. While they could eventually meet somewhere near the middle, to get movement the players may say their lower their demand to $75m if/when the owners increase their offer to $35m. If agreed to, very negotiation steps have been removed. The sides already know what they will accept but of course the players want as much as possible. It may be they move closer but stop and then work on the tax threshold the same way. Eventually they will combine the issues and one side will give in more on one in exchange for the other side moving on the other.
So what. Comparing apples and oranges.
Maybe the MLBPA should have bought teams a decade ago… the value only matters when a team is sold or if the owner wants to take out a loan. There’s zero chance an owner takes a loan in order to pay players more money.
John, you can’t buy what someone won’t sell you. Ask Mark Cuban.
What happens in 4 years when the market crashes and the organization values steady or decline? Will the players agree to then reduce salaries? I’m not taking less because the owners investment is down. Just like I’m not entitled to same amount when it’s up. A share of the profits is ok but be realistic
GoRav, isn’t that part of the risk owners take? Should they socialize the losses again like they did in 2020 despite privatizing gains the rest of the time?
Employees are never entitled to a share of the increase or decrease in a businesses value. That is called business risk. They choose to be employees rather than owners.
After a ;year of Covid and loss of market share to the other major sports, the golden goose in baseball has been cooked. Cities are no longer buying teams stadiums. Cable subscribers are cutting the cord. Fans are staying home due to high ticket, parking and concession prices. All of this is bad for MLB and the MLBPA.
Teams need to set aside $30M per year for stadium construction each year and another $30 million to pay minor leaguers a fair, living wage. All of this must come from the player payroll. Set the hard cap at $100M but include the minor leaguers in the calculation. This is the only fair way. The MLBPA and some of their more socialist fans have yet to understand the realities of the current economics of the sport.
Bob, employees may not be entitled to a share of business value, but they’ll entitled to negotiate for the best salary and benefits they can get.
“All of this *must* come from the player payroll.” Why must it? Also, that seems rather socialist, something you seem to express a distaste for later in your post.
“This is the only fair way.” There’s more than one fair way to accomplish pretty much anything. You don’t have the single correct answer.
Joe was underpaid
Bighead..facts…unless MLB believes those sales numbers are flawed like a bubble and they don’t trust the underlying economic future of the game. These quantum cable contracts made these previous owners wealthy. I wouldn’t want to buy a team now. 10 years ago they’re worth 100M? That smells like bubble. And for a game that has the oldest avg fan age at something like 61. Pump n dump.
or after they’ve together sucked all the financial blood they can from the fans. it’s started already with the marriages to gambling institutions. The downside will start when they stop finding suckers like us. My cable and internet bill is over $200 monthly. How much can we continue to afford between that and in ball park experiences that now cost vacation money? Add in those who choose to gamble.
And the Tix cost for 4 to attend a game at Nats park is now on Avg (not nose bleed seats) @over $150. Add in modest concession food (which is crazy $$) consumption = another $125… and you can see why I have NO sympathy for Owners & pissed at all MLB.
@JOHN: I was about to say the same thing. Suggesting owners get people to loan them money just to meet payroll might be the dumbest idea I’ve heard in awhile. That’s the first step in running a business into the ground. If owning a baseball team is so “profitable” it should be able to support itself and the money made from owning it should be more than enough to at least cover its own payroll. Owners didn’t get rich by making stupid business decisions like that.
Appreciation of an asset and revenue are two different things.
While that is true, how many companies in the US base their payroll on a rolling percentage of revenue/profits?
I never said they should borrow to meet payroll, I said they could. If they have to do this, they’re bad business people, and we know they’re not.
Actually, what they’re doing is borrowing against their franchise equity to increase their real estate holdings. Also, they’re taking advantage of tax breaks their friends in Congress created so they can double-dip on tax write-offs, savings tens of millions of dollars per year.
propublica.org/article/the-billionaire-playbook-ho…
“We’re following the law, working within the tax system.” Yep, the system they helped fund to benefit themselves and each other. What a country!
Why would any owner take out a loan and use the proceeds for something dumb like payroll? That shows a fundamental lack of understanding regarding finance.
Sid, doing that would be about as dumb as believing owners when they say they don’t make much money owning a team, or believing the commissioner when he says owning a team is a worse investment than the stock market.
Frank McCourt did exactly that to meet the Dodgers payroll. The team was driven into bankruptcy by McCourt’s mismanagement. Now, what was the penalty? Being made a billionaire, twice over when the team sold out of bankruptcy. If anyone didn’t understand how completely the interests of team owners are protected, this story should do it for them.
You hit the nail on the head with modest changes every CBA. Problem is the union and Tony Clark botched the last one and placed them way behind, in their eyes(and mine too). Therefore the major change is necessary, again to them. It’s pretty clear to me the owners, within the CBA, used that to their advantage early and often throughout. They manipulate service time, refuse to pay anyone over 30 anything for the most part, actively tank and raise the price for the fan all along the way. That’s good business for them. Doesn’t appeal as much to fan or the players. Look I’m on the players side(for the most part) but they did this to themselves and to expect to correct all these mistakes in one fell swoop is utterly ridiculous and anyone negotiating wouldn’t give up all that leverage at once anyway. The problem is both sides need the fans, and I’m one that will never leave cuz I love the sport I grew up with and played for half my life, but I know a ton who have and have no interest in coming fully back. Both sides doing their best to alienate the casual fan which both need in the long run to continue the success the sport has seen financially. Just one man’s opinion…
@drtymike: I agree with you. I’m really in no one’s side. It’s like politics. It doesn’t matter who you vote for, you are still going to get someone who sucks. As far as the Tony Clark statement you made, I think you are right that this is the player mindset. It doesn’t work that way, though. Whichever side screws up is the side that has to eat it. It is a matter of opinion as to whether Clark screwed up but I happen to agree he did. However, the union doesn’t get to say, “we screwed up last time so now you have to pay.” No. YOU screwed up so YOU will be the one to deal with those consequences. MLB didn’t force the union to hire Tony Clark. The union did that themselves. It’s the union who should pay for every consequence of their previous decisions. Putting that on anyone else is not right. If that slides they can say during every CBA that the last representative screwed up so they need even more this time. It’s a slippery slope and can create a snowball effect. If the union isn’t happy with what Clark did then they have no one to blame but themselves. The way things work don’t change just because they made a regrettable decision. Do you think the union would ever let the owners slide if they changed their mind and didn’t like the deal they signed?
So if something changed, it can’t be unchanged.
But there was change that caused the first change, so why can’t that change?
I agree with this. It’s time to reset and assure the players are being paid fairly. Then only fine tuning should be needed in future. Make long term peace and share in the fun
Did Rocker agree to a predraft physical? I thought he didn’t
@randomuser: I believe Rocker submitted to a physical but not the pre-draft medical reports like and MRI. I think they checked him out with a physical before they drafted him and thought he was okay but didn’t like the MRI results after. It’s hard to keep track with this medical stuff sometimes but my personal experience with a physical is that they just touch your body from the outside. Things like x-rays and MRIs are not a standard part of a physical as far as I know.
“I believe,” “I think,” “It’s hard to keep track,” “as far as I know.”
It’s okay to say “I don’t know” or just not to answer.
He “feels” a lot as well gbs43
This is not a very informed take on the CBA talks. The players have gone from receiving nearly 60% of league revenue in compensation to less than 45% today, with the owners really abusing the current system in the past 5 years (players comp actually decreasing while MLB enjoys record revenue). These CBA talks were always going to require significant changes.
Owners abusing? If you own and run a business, your goal is to maximize profits with little under costs. Tired of you guys trashing the owners. Put yourselves in there shoes if you are running a business. Don’t forget that players make addionial money alone on baseball card endorsements , jersey sales, commercials and other advertisements. Media appearances, autograph sessions and ect.
Albert, my job was to run a business. A huge part of running it was hiring employees to do the jobs which needed to be filled. Now, I could pay lower wages and attract lower talent OR I pay higher wages and expect top level talent which produce better results, leading to more revenue. It’s a short sighted approach to look at it totally on a balance sheet.
You are talking about star players, not your average MLB player which the majority make up
Albert – Most employees aren’t able to negotiate a CBA that outlines their rules of employment. They are hired and fired at-will, and they can always leave for another job whenever they want. The marketplace is supposed to keep owners honest because they can lose their employees to better jobs if they aren’t fair. Baseball is a monopoly that requires a special exemption from Congress just to operate. Baseball players collectively bargain for these rules, and there is an element of good faith and fair dealing inherent in every contract. The owners have not acted in good faith in the past few years. Tanking has become an epidemic. Comparing baseball owners and players to any other group of owners and employees is a ridiculous argument.
I think the players taking a little less than half of the revenue is completely fair. Both sides are integral to the league. The owners take more risk, so they should get a bit more for that reason. 55/45 makes sense to me.
Cujo, I’m not going to argue one way or another about what percentages would be fair, but it’s currently estimated to be about a 63%/37% split in favor of the owners.
Cujo, problem is no one has a concrete idea about what the split actually is. Owners are steadfast in not opening their books. I don’t understand what they are trying to hide. Don’t give me the whole, they shouldn’t have to argument. They enjoy publicly financed stadiums, at least in part, as well as enjoying anti trust laws exemptions. They can’t cry poverty when they won’t prove it by letting the public see how true it is. The players’ salaries are all public knowledge. What’s fair is fair.
Hammer, you’re vastly overstating the value of those draft picks. Your assessment that “this should be plenty” is quaint – and also far off the mark.
@hammer
The owners have never requested a reduction from anything the players already have. They have not asked for a concession.
If they were impressed we’d be done
Hammer, how can you say draft pick compensation will do ANYTHING to curb service time manipulation? How many draft picks produce bupkis in the major leagues? The type of players who are the ones experiencing service time manipulation are of the superstar variety. Teams will not care about gaining an extra pick or two over the value of having that player at a severely under market rate for an extra season. Not to mention, I haven’t even read where those picks will be in said draft. Also, your example of Kumar Rocker is just wrong. He didn’t agree to pre draft medicals, so care to explain to me how he was “guaranteed” 75% of his slot value? Most of this new proposal are window dressing to get people like you to think the owners are genuine in their intentions to end some of the things they’ve gotten away with over the last handful of years.
In particular, increasing the tax on the lowest tier CBT tax from 20% to 50% is a non starter, and only increasing the tax threshold by less than one percent per year over five years doesn’t cut it. Just an inflation adjustment would bump it to $225 million the first year.
Converting the minimum salary to a fixed salary is another non starter.
And they’re doing nothing to truly address teams not spending even the revenue sharing money they get nor service time manipulation in any meaningful way. The owners are stalling.
@Patrick: Do you even hear yourself? “Increasing the tax on the tax is a non-starter.” WTF are you even talking about? Get your ish together and then maybe you can talk some sense. It’s not that complicated and people like you are the reason some folks think it is.
Replace the first “tax” with “surcharge” if that helps. If it doesn’t, get your ish together.
I don’t get where some of you posit that “changes in the CBA are supposed to be modest every time.” The players are looking to negotiate away some unfair practices that are detrimental to them, which may require major changes. Conversely, if the owners could get away with it, they would really stick it to the players. The players look at the last CBA as already doing that.
The situation we are in with this lockout and barely moving negotiations also show that modest changes weren’t and aren’t going to cut it this time.
If things were moving rapidly we would be done
@Hammer- “I don’t get why the players are so “unimpressed” with this offer.” Really? You don’t get why increasing a tax from 20 to 50 percent is unimpressive?
You don’t get why an increase of one percent per year in the CBT threshold doesn’t impress the players?
You don’t get why converting minimum salaries to fixed salaries doesn’t get the players jumping for joy?
I broke it all down for you, but you still don’t get it?
“Changes in the CBA are supposed to be “modest” every time. Expecting massive change in one CBA is just ridiculous.”
The owners proposed abolishing arbitration and replacing it with an algorithm based on WAR.
The owners proposed abolishing six year free agency and replacing it with an age based system for free agency.
Now they still propose little increase in the CBT threshold and more than doubling the tax rate.
There have been three major accomplishments that the players have won in past CBA talks. Free agency, arbitration, and resisting a salary cap. Owners directly attacked all three of them.
Franchise values are no reason for owners to pony up more, but soaring revenues go directly to cash flow, and when players see salaries declining, and the median salary plunging by 30 percent over the term of the last CBA, they understandably want to reverse that trend and get a fair share. That’s not presently being offered.
Owners know very well that there won’t be an agreement that hardens the de facto salary cap, just as players know that owners will never agree to 2.0 year arbitration eligibility. It’s a negotiation. A process.
Owners are pushing these talks to the limit, with the hope that they run out the clock on negotiations, just as they did in 2020. It’s a negotiation. A process.
The owners have made a tactical decision to slow walk these negotiations in order to exert the most leverage on the players. I think you get it more than you let on.
@Patrick: The owners don’t “increase the tax on the tax.” You can’t tax a tax. Nobody has to pay a tax just for the pleasure of being taxed on something else. Owners don’t tax taxes. Much less increase a tax on another tax. You can’t tax a tax. You can tax sales and income or property. You can’t tax taxes, though. That would just lead to infinite taxing because people would be taxed for their tax and then get taxed for paying that tax and eventually every single penny ever earned would just be spent on taxes because everyone would have to pay taxes just for the right to pay a tax. You’re talking nonsense.
Hammer, you’re getting lost in semantics.
There’s a salary *threshold* (formally called the Competitive Balance Tax). Above this threshold, teams pay a *surcharge” or *penalty* (some may call it a *tax*).
If this doesn’t clear things up, I give up.
I completely disagree with the entire logic and analysis of this long winded Please Hammer this analysis, your only hurting ’em comment.
The minimal movement for the first time by the owners after locking out the players is 100% underwhelming, though it can be used as a small building block to reach an acceptable solution to this CBA Hopefully sooner rather than later!
union
MLB you will be missed
There will be baseball, you liar.
Throw in added play-off revenue and on-uniform advertising, then basically do an accounting of what every move will cost each side in dollars. Try to meet somewhere in the middle. The MLBPA should prioritize high pay for those in the minors, those players in their pre-arb and also the players in arbitration years. That setup would help out all of those players at the bottom end of the pay scale. The remaining part of the pie can come from a CBT threshold increase that would benefit the top dollar earners.
The MLBPA doesn’t represent minor leaguers, so they can’t formally bargain on their behalf. That being said, I’d really like to see them and pre-arb players make substantially more.
Take another 11-day break – no rush, boys.
Well slap my ass & call me Nancy. Ahahahaha!!
That’s cute, they made a little calendar
I wonder if they went to Michael’s and got some glitter and highlighters to circle the important dates as well
and some glitter for they days the meet
And Gary Glitter singing the lockout theme song “Let’s Get Together Again”.
youtube.com/watch?v=hKHMfzErcBA
They bought a bunch of sunshine & stormy cloud stickers for the calendar too.
with little lightning bolts
Those were drawn in later – with a Sharpie.
AGhh yes, the 90’s emojis Dorothy, the decade baseball still resides in would be quite suiting
Maybe they can get those cool paint pens people use to spray on T-shirts as well for the header “F@CK Everyone” just to make sure everybody in the room is on the same page
I have a can of “genuine” Florida sunshine I bought in the 70’s…..am willing to donate and open if it will help….?
Trevor Bauer should do the negotiating
Def. He’s already shows he’s adept at forcing things.
No charges equals consent. Try again.
No it doesn’t. It means no witness or not enough physical evidence to get a conviction.
As long as the negotiations are consensual.
Craven – Best comment thus far.
The Pasadena Police Dept stands behind your starement.
Millionaires fighting with billionaires
This argument is just basically “I refuse to understand nuance or detail but want to yell very loud.” Please say less.
Keep in mind that a billion is 1000 millions.
What percentage of 40 man roster players are millionaires?
That’s a good question, oak. My guess is the vast majority of 40 man roster players are at least close to millionaires. If you are in the majors for 2 years you become a millionaire even if you make the league minimum. On top of that, any of the players who were drafted in the first round became millionaires before they set foot in a minor league field. You pretty much have to be a rookie who was not drafted very in order to be on the 40-man and not be a millionaire. Once you consider endorsements and everything I would imagine somewhere around 90% of players in the 40-man are worth at least somewhere close to a million with most of them being by worth a lot more than that. As long as you are good enough to produce at all on the major league roster for at least a year or two it is very easy to become a millionaire at the major league level.
You must be too young to have ever paid taxes (or, well…anything) if you think that a 500k salary makes you are a millionaire in two years.
At this rate there will never be an agreement. Anyone think we’ll lose half a season?
I think we will lose more than have tbh
I think you know where I stand on this
May the 4th be with you.
@wesstl. They keep this up MLB and MLBPA was lose fans. They have already lost a majority of the youth which is the future of the money train. I’m sure mostly because the average family cannot afford to regularly attend games because of high ticket prices and ridiculous concession prices. Not to mention kids want entertainment and quite frankly even as a adult fan games can get boring at times. I’m not aware if teams do this anymore but something they used to call “field trips” with kids and there schoolmates would probably go along way towards kids getting into baseball in general. Make it cheap like $20 a kids tell them they get a drink and a hot dog or hamburger and if the kids are poor hold a fund raiser or ask for donations. Even better let the teacher submit for a free passes for known kids whose families cannot afford it to the teams.
Please stop spreading this myth! Most teams have perfectly affordable $5 ticket games (plus fees) due to dynamic pricing, and even if it’s not a ballpark that lets you bring in your own food, there’s no need to buy concessions if you can’t afford them. There are also transportation costs as well (parking or public transit tickets), but overall a middle class family can still easily attend multiple games a year if they pick the right ones.
I went to Dodgers games for $12 dollars a pop all the time back in 2015. $7 dollar ticket on a Tuesday non-division game. Found a free parking spot. Walked to the stadium. $5 drink. Watched the first 5 innings down the right field line. After that found an empty seat behind 3rd base and watched the rest of the game there. People saying you can’t have a great time at a game without spending a bunch of money are liars or morons.
It’s a convenient and easy thing to complain about the cost. I guess I can’t blame people. It takes a bit of work and effort to find deals. I also get not want to move around seat location with little children. It’s a royal pain to move the little ones and a major disruption in enjoying the game. The concessions are only outrageous if you must buy alcohol. Concessions deals can be found, my home stadium has a family concession stand with no beer and you must pay by card. Skip the soda and it gets really affordable. Even if the stadium policy prohibits bringing in your own food, stop at the dollar fast food menu on the way to the stadium and load up there and eat on the way to the game. For parking, I get not wanting to walk with a family. There should be affordable parking somewhat close to the stadium, though.
I have tried to give away free tickets and that can be difficult so I don’t always believe the people complaining about affordability. I think it’s more of laziness and people not wanting to get off the couch.
@lani. I expected a reply like yours. Not everyone lives near a MLB stadium (I’m almost 300 miles each way from the Rockies or Royals field). Last game I went to nose bleed seats were expensive as well as concessions (Coors Field) half the stadium was empty as well and that was 5-6 years ago. Of course I had to wait till the Braves came to town because I wasn’t there to watch the Rockies. I guess it’s probably convenient if you live close to a stadium and can pick and choose “cheap” nights. Those of us that live far away have to use vacation time buy tickets in advance and make a hotel reservation. For me I’m happy not spending another penny on MLB for anytime soon and watching a game on cable at the local bar.
So your complaint isn’t about baseball stadiums pricing, its that you chose to live nowhere near a baseball team. If going to baseball games is a priority, you should prioritize it.
I’m tired of the greed. I don’t enjoys crowds or living in large cities. I’m certainly not relocating after watching the 1% of the wealthy fight over money. I realize it’s a unpopular take but the players are asking for too much. Take a raise and play.
Glad you and yours can afford it. My middle class family cannot. Upper deck seats are $20 per. With parking, that’s $100 before entering the park.
Exactly.
Same thing with restaurants!
You go in sit down, get some water and the cheapest appetizer and then you just beat the busboy to each table as people leave.
Bingo, free food.
And only liars and morons don’t know about the dumpsters behind the restaurants. You just have to get there before the raccoons.
A great meal at a great price.
Who cares … I hope they never play another inning. Sick whiny billionaire and millionaire. Baseball has driven me a once die hard fan as far away as possible.
Is the far away place a baseball trade rumours website comment section?
He hates baseball, but absolutely loves rumors.
So do I. One of the best albums ever!
Thunder only happens when it’s rainin’
That’s a classic!!
Then why are you here posting on a baseball site. Full of BS that you hate the game soooooo much. I guess we will see you at opening day. We
Do you think there will a long line?
Let me clear your conscious. Stop visiting and posting on this site if you hate baseball so much.
Cya
A team should get some tax threshold relief or some other benefit when signing a free agent player that they drafted or signed as an IFA and developed and has been in their organization the entire time.
The only problem with that is it would disincentivize teams from signing their own players to large contract extensions before becoming free agents.
So?
So teams would rather lock up good young players through what will likely be their most productive years vs waiting and then giving them a large free agent contract. The savings on what’s counted against the luxury tax wouldn’t outweigh the potential costs of unproductive years at the tail end of most big free agent contracts.
@ desertbull & kingken67
24 of the 30 teams could care less about how payroll is applied to the CBT, because they know their payroll can’t come near it, if they are operating the team based on their revenue.
If you’re surprised, you haven’t been paying attention.
How serious is the meeting when it’s shorter than an episode high heat? Someone lock these goofballs in a room till they come to an agreement.
I agree, how do they all fly out to meet at a location for an hour. They should have a city booked for a weekend and have 12 hour meetings. Get it done
The flight was probably longer than the meeting.
Sick of this. Joined a Nascar fantasy league. Loved baseball since I was 5 but the greed (on both sides) is ridiculous.
OMG. The Owners are so out of touch. The clock is seriously ticking and THAT is the 130 page proposal they came up with? Idiots! We are heading towards missed regular season games folks and it appears our Commissioner doesn’t care. Minimum salary should be a no Brainer. Give the players what they are asking for there. Split the difference on the bonus pool and increase the CBT thresholds $10m each and I bet the players would accept. It is NOT THAT HARD!
Both sides want universal DH and the elimination of draft pick comp for free agents getting the QO. Let’s get it done!
Owners get to keep revenue sharing, free agent clock start and 14 team playoffs. Just DO IT!!!!!!!
No, Manfraud and the owners don’t care if they miss a few regular season games. They make their money on the playoffs. The players make their money in the regular season. The owners are purposely putting the regular season at risk because it puts pressure on the players and likely as a way to punish the players.
This is sad but true. How pathetic.
How is that any more pathetic than players striking in August when they have been paid most of their money to put pressure on the owners?
Hmmmmm the players do have a war chest. They cant have the playoffs is theirs no regular season. The owners still have pay rent and maintain a stadium even when it’s not being used. Fans pay to see the players not the owners. I think the players hold more leverage.
Owners have vastly more financial resources and time to wait than the players. The players will cave, and the owners will just wait.
Yes, but the union isn’t smart enough to see the obvious.
They never have before. Why would this time be different?
But the owners can only make money when games are played.
I agree that the owners don’t care if they miss the first 20-25 games of the season. If I had to guess, April baseball games are the least profitable games for owners, especially in cold weather cities. Who wants to watch a #3, #4 or #5 starter pitch in 40 degree weather? They probably lose money on these games so I bet their plan is to get a deal done by March 31st, use April for Spring Training and then start the regular season on May 1st. This way, owners will only have to pay the players ~85% of their annual salaries and they get to avoid the cold/inclement weather and lack of fans that April usually brings.
The owners will never cave into these demands. Unless the union becomes a lot more realistic, there will be no baseball this year.
Both sides are so out of touch.
It’s called a negotiation. They should not just give the players what they are asking for without countering. It’s really getting old that successful people are told to just give away their wealth. This will all get worked out – maybe not in the time frame we would like. Both sides will get serious once we get to Spring. I cannot see a full season at this point so we may be lucky to get 140 games in this season.
At this point I hope the MLBPA are doing to themselves. Don’t come whining once an agreement is finally reached (whenever that is) that suddenly players are being traded to teams they didn’t want to go, have to quickly relocate their families from one coast to another coast, free agents don’t get signed as quickly as they thought or get as much money (and years) as they wanted, players have trouble with Visas, and the many other things that need to be done before they can report to their teams.
And, players don’t go whining when the fans boo you every time you come to bat or throw a pitch.
Players if you had to get a real job like ordinary fans maybe you would think differently than being so greedy.
MLBPA you have brought this on yourselves.
Pssssst Redwovles. The owners locked out the players. Other they would be negotiations ongoing while we have SP. It takes 2 to tangle .
Randy–Stop trying to confuse him with facts.
Yes, because the last time the owners tried to keep thing moving and continue to negotiate through the season the players decided to strike in August and wiped out the end of the regular season and the entire postseason. They weren’t about to chance that again.
How naive does one have to be in order to not understand that the players get most leverage by striking in August. How dumb would you have to assume the owners are to not understand that they are much better off locking out the players when THEY have the leverage.
The average payroll in 2011?
Roughly $93 million
The average payroll in 2021?
Roughly $104 million
Payrolls have jumped about 12% in a
decade.
Meanwhile, the average value of a
team has jumped 365% ($523m to
$1.91b) in that same timespan.
The league average payroll was $130 million last year not $104 million.
Most teams were bought a decade or two ago. My house I bought 15 years ago. Yes it has tripled in value but if I want to move I am not getting a house for what I paid 15 years ago.
Cohen bought the Mets for 2..5 billion in 2020. Were there 20 people bidding 2.5 billion for the Mets ? No. If I put my house up for sale will 20 people pay this tripled value. Yes.
Cohen paid 150 million for a painting that had a giant hole in the middle.
My point is there are only three or four owners like Cohen. The players think they are negotiating with Cohen but they are not. They are negotiating with hard nosed successful businessmen that want to make a reasonable profit every year. These business owners do NOT assume house prices or baseball team prices will increase by 10 per cent every year for the next 30 years and if they do it will be only because inflation goes up by 10 per cent every year.
the value of a team doesn’t have anything to doo with payroll. It’s $$ what a owners net worth is.
I’m going to guess that you don’t do a lot of negotiations for a living.
Why is the players ask for minimum salary a “no brainer”? How did you arrive at what would be fair?
Split the difference on the bonus pool? You mean that thing that did NOT EXIST before. Sure, just have the owners throw in $50M for the heck of it.
Go ahead and try this at your job. Tell your boss that you demand a new bonus for $1M/years. When they balk, tell them that you will come down to $500K. See how that goes.
Hey bjsguess, none of this is run like a business. You can’t make that parallel here. The fact is, TV revenues have gone through the roof and they are not being shared in a remotely similar proportion between the Owners and the players. $50 million split between all 30 teams is not a huge amount to bear for rewarding young players for their increasingly outstanding play at an early age. Think about all the young talent in the game today putting up stats that would have been considered MVP caliber back in the day. And they are being paid at pre-arb salaries. This can go a long way to remedying that wrong.
As far as the league minimum salary goes, this will only affect those with less than one year of service time and many of these players are up and down from the minors while clubs play the option game. What are we talking about here? An extra $85k (probably prorated) for maybe 5-10 guys per club? Is that enough to keep a deal from being struck and getting back to playing the great game we all love? I think not.
I honestly don’t think the MLBPA’s ask is excessive and just simply meeting in the middle should more than get it done. Especially when the league came out and said 3 topics were “non-starters” and they would not move on them. That does not sound like good faith negotiating to me.
By my bigger concern is why the two sides are not burning the midnight oil to get a deal done. 2 to 3 hours every week or so will not get it done.
Central, so if you owned a business, you’d just give employees what they want? If your answer is no, you’re just being a whiny hypocrite.
@Tomahawk Takeover If I was making the type of bank the owners are and had just negotiated significantly increased revenue streams through TV rights for the next decade or so, and the ask of my employees was that of the players? Absolutely….everyday of the week and twice on Sundays. This is not a “give them what they want situation”. The players’ ask is quite reasonable and every owner would still come out far ahead of where they were in the last CBA from a comparative perspective. Not to mention the exponentially increased valuations of baseball teams from just 10 years ago.
Sigh. Stick a fork in it, we’re done.
I was hoping spring training was at least delayed or cancelled as my plan B for my FL trip next week is more exciting.
Agreed and so is watching paint dry.
It’s sad because us die hard fans are getting tired of this and are starting to realize something we have never had to before the pandemic and agin this year. We can and will live without baseball.
I admit I naively thought that with all the money out there, the whole business would blow over by Valentine’s Day. Silly me. At this point, they can take the year off; milb-tv is cheap.
I’m with you, bobtillman. I love going to Altoona to watch the Bucs’ AA team. If they lose an entire season to greed, we still get baseball. I might even try to get out to Indy to see the Bucs’ AAA team. These are the guys we’ve been waiting to see, anyway. If these fools want to lose a year of their careers to inflexible, insatiable greed, no skin off my back. I love MILB.
The owners are not even trying to make a deal. The owners know what numbers it would take to get this deal done. The owners do not care about the players are the fans
At least the owners offered to have someone mediate the negotiations. The players are drawing this thing out.
Mediation is not arbitration. Mediators have no power. All they can do is try and keep both sides talking and acting like adults.
Isn’t that what it takes to keep things moving forward instead of counter offers every 2 weeks.?No one said anything about arbitration.
Which by all appearances, certainly is lacking. Besides, it sure as hell couldn’t hurt any, despite what some are claiming.
Do you think the words “the fans or the spring training communities” were ever mentioned in negotiations. NOT.
Haha, so the owners should just acquiesce? That sounds like the argument of a 12 year old. You can switch the word owner with player and it’ll be just as convincing an argument.
The players are not even trying to make a deal. The players know what numbers it would take to get this deal done
You aren’t paying attention.
It was the owners who locked out the players then sat on their butts for six dang weeks. This, after making several daft proposals before the lockout that anyone with three synapsing brain cells knew the players could not accept.
Then, they made one lousy counter offer to an MLBPA proposal. After the latest player’s proposal, it was the owners who said they’d respond, and then they wussed out and decided not to.
It was then that they asked for arbitration when it has been CONSISTENTLY THE OWNERS WHO HAVE REFUSED TO COME TO THE TABLE.
Again, it doesn’t take the brains of a rocket scientist to see which side has been willing to negotiate. Yet you fell for the most transparent scam yet—the federal mediator.
Ask yourself one question: why did the owners themselves NOT RESPOND, then insinuate the players are the problem and demand a mediator? Because they want to paint the players as the bad guys.
Ask yourself another question: would the owners EVER agree to a federal anything inserted into their shady deals? No frickin’ way.
Yet you expect the side that *wants* to negotiate to accept a mediator??? That makes zero sense.
And you fell for it.
@jacobwoltje
Do you think the players don’t know the numbers that the owners would agree to? The players are being offered a raise and are throwing it back in the owners faces. “I want more!” An owner that pays his employees a minimum of HALF A MILLION, with first class flights, premium hotels, and finest food in the clubhouse, should not have employees complaining about their wage.
In theory, the more the players get paid, the less profit the owners make….unless they raise prices on fans. I suspect the owners want profit to stay the same or increase. So, maybe the owners have fan affordability in mind when making proposals. We already have significant inflation. If the players get a significant raise on top of inflation, I expect prices to go way up at the ballpark. The owners could pay players more and keep fan prices from skyrocketing, but they would make less profit. Is it reasonable to expect a business owner to do that? The answer is a matter of opinion, but I suspect the owners will pass all cost increases (such as higher players payroll and inflation) onto the consumer (the fans).
Honestly it’s way better than I thought it would be. Players should counter fast and set a deadline. It’s getting better. Either way, I state over and over again…
The only losers here are the fans.
I’m losing momentum and may just not watch this year.
Ok, let’s see……10% of the players make 90% of the money. That seems a bit of a problem to me if I’m in the other 90% of the players. In addition, MLB owners have agreed to increase the minimum salary of $615,00 per season. …..let me rephrase that….no player makes less than $615,000 for a full season!
Is it just me that I’m having a little trouble feeling sorry for players? How many fans out there would dearly love to have a job with a guaranteed salary of $615,000?
615k for 6 months of work too.
Yeah because they don’t pick up a ball and bat from October through March right?
Let us know when you can hit or throw a 99MPH fastball.
That $615,000 also comes with the expense of having to maintain 2 households if they live in the off-season somewhere other than the city where they play, which most players do since they can be traded at any time so why commit to one area for living.
I’m sure they will survive on $615K
That’s not the point. The athletes will simply move to other more lucrative sports. Baseball often competes with football athletes and often loses them to football.
Baseball is more lucrative than the NFL. Higher pay and more years NBA is on par with MLB.
That is beyond silly.
How many professional baseball players are also capable of being professional football or basketball players? 5% maybe.
Any professional athlete that is good enough to be a professional in more than one sport AND is worried about a few hundred thousand in base pay over a few years is doing it wrong.
for a major league player yes but to make it to the majors if you are lucky enough you are usually 2 – 3 years of playing and living at below minimum wage unless you are a top draft pick. NBA has a salary off the bat and NFL players i believe are granted a minimum salary once drafted based on pick location.
MLB also has nearly guaranteed contracts, unlike the NFL.
Yeah, for those who actually make the majors. That’s not a given even for players in the top 10 in the draft whereas first round picks in both the NBA and NFL are virtually guaranteed major league contracts.
They have to maintain 2? That’s a stretch…
@ kingken
2 homes isn’t a requirement. Its an option.
2021 saw more average players on teams with total pay being about the same. That’s problematic and you hit the nail on the head. Mega contracts are sky-high, but the little guys are making less than they deserve. The owners have done very little to fix that. Owners and players are so far apart and an agreement. They’re also both out of touch with reality.
Think about your job. Think of the very best employee (we all know who they are). Then, think of all the other people from all over your industry that do your job. Only 1 in 10 of all the “best employees” will be in the exclusive “Major League” group. And, they have to spend all of their time maintaining or improving their abilities to be the best just to stay in the group. Yeah, only 600k, for the top physical and talented athletes on the Planet! Your right, their anilites totally match up with yours and your sensibilities of what they should be worth.
It’s not only 650k…it’s 650k MINIMUM. You seem to have glossed over that in your theoretical
Yeah, Random. Because we’ve reached this point after the owners TOTALLY offer to pay their below market value players such as Aaron Judge more than the minimum. Oh wait, how much did he make his first three seasons in the league? That’s right, he got paid league minimum in 2016, a whopping 10k over his second season, and around 73k his third. Hardly even close to his true market value. And, now that he’s about to hit free agency, what do teams say? He’s too old to give the kind of money he’s asking. Explain to me how that is a fair system?
you also glossed over the fact it is at minimum 2 or 3 years of less than minimum wage for a CHANCE at 650k minimum salary where many are 5 or 6 years if not more.
Well, for one you mean that out of 750 or more (assuming this is accurate) players, 10% of them make 90% of 38-42% of MLB’s revenues.
The 30 owners make 58-62% of the revenue.
They laugh when you play the “HEY, that guy is getting more crumbs than me!” game.
This is fun.
Expenses … which are in the BILLIONS apportioned by group.
Players = 0%
Owners – 100%
or
Cost of ownership (to get the foot in the door – $500-$2B)
Players – 0%
Owners – 100%
Players are employees. They take ZERO risk. They show up and collect a paycheck. And unlike you and me, they keep their money even if they stink and can’t contribute. If revenues go into the toilet for my company there are layoffs and pay reductions. If revenues go down and you are a player you don’t care one bit. The hit is felt exclusively by ownership and non-players.
Any owner who wants to sell his team will make more than when he bought it. I can never feel sorry for billionaires who lose money, because they write it off their taxes. But in this case, the owners can never lose in the long run.
Licking your bosses shoes is fun? It does seem to be for many, true.
Can you name the last pro sports team to sell for less than it was purchased for?
The owners take all the risk? I guess you’re forgetting who pays for their stadiums.
There is no risk in owning a team. An ownership group like the Dodgers can pay its players 200+ million every year because they’re making a lot more than that. And if they decide tomorrow that the profits they make aren’t high enough, they can sell the team for more than they paid to acquire it.
The entire salary/bonus apparatus is set to mitigate risk for owners. The draft is capped, minor league salaries are capped (at less than minimum wage), pre arb is essentially capped at league minimum, and for another three years of arb eligibility players are cost controlled. That’s not risk, that’s as projectable and safe an investment as there is, where it takes something like a pandemic to lose revenue.
In theory, six years of minor league control, three years of minimum, and another three years of cost control in arbitration.
The real risk is some 18 year old going off to grind six years in the minor leagues for the chance to get a prorated portion of major league minimum for three to six years before he becomes too expensive, or old, to pay in arb. That’s real risk.
Not to mention the fact that your peers from high school or college have years ahead of you in the work force, compounded by the fact that every year colleges, and trade schools, are churning out another years worth of talent into the work force. Who is taking the real risk?
Not everyone is the Dodgers, and like any business there is a ton of risk. Who do you think pays the lease on the stadium? Who do you think paid millions, and these days billions to purchase the team? They don’t just write a check for that, they have to take out loans and pay it back over many years. Then you have all the costs, organizational staffing, minor leagues, utilities at all stadiums in the organization, concession costs, stadium repairs, maintenance costs. This is just scratching the service. Yes, in a normal year, they will usually make a nice profit, but their is always risk. You invest hundreds of millions of your own money, and tell me that their is not risk, especially in the world we live in now.
The average payroll in 2011?
Roughly $93 million
The average payroll in 2021?
Roughly $104 million
Payrolls have jumped about 12% in a
decade.
Meanwhile, the average value of a
team has jumped 365% ($523m to
$1.91b) in that same timespan.
Your numbers are off.
Union + MLB are like two geese that can’t produce any eggs on their own, but figured out if they work together they create an endless supply of golden eggs as far as the eye can see… and yet somehow have decided it would be more fun to sit in their own bitter corners and make no eggs at all, while everyone in their town is starving to death, without realizing that they will be the dinner themselves before long.
The owners are trying hard to kill the golden goose. Honestly, they should give the players everything they’ve asked for (a pretty modest ask) in a desperate attempt to avoid getting sued out of their anti-trust exemption and reserve clause.
None of these owners deserve the privilege of owning a slice of America’s pastime.
Good call comrade
Cancel the season and kill the sport
Wish I could give this a million upvotes
I raise you 2M down votes
4ever apparently isn’t as long as it used to be.
I had some faith we’d get a June start to the season, but after this lackadaisical counter I think it’s safe to say the 2022 season is a lost cause fellas.
700,000 minimum and max of 235.
Play ball !
You’re on the right track!
Higher prices for fans to pay for it. Business owners don’t like to see profits go down.
The comments by Manfred the last few days have been extremely insulting. Baseball is in series trouble. This is not America’s past time anymore and people are going to leave the game permanently if this doesn’t get settled.
@Von – The problem is that fans will not leave the game. Every time there is work stoppage in baseball, we hear that fans are disgusted and they will no longer support baseball. Yet by the time the players come back, stadiums are sold out and the lemmings return! TV ratings do tend to take a hit early on, but if teams are playing well or even if just a handful of players are playing extremely well (think of the steroid-fueled HR race in the 90’s), the tv ratings will come back too.
Assuming some regular season games are cancelled this year, when they finally get back on the field, don’t be surprised if we start seeing a record number of HRs being hit. All MLB has to do is bring back the juiced baseballs and the fan interest and tv ratings will increase exponentially. They have all of these strategies mapped out already. That’s why fan interest and fan disappointment is never discussed during these negotiations. Both sides know they can bring the fans back with a few parlor tricks. Shame on us for falling for it every time, but we do.
Dotty – I’ve said that many times already, fans will not turn their backs on baseball. Maybe for a short while, but certainly not forever. And if their team is in contention, they’ll return in the blink of an eye.
MLB and MLBPA should start reading the comments on trade rumors.
There are plenty of players that read the comments here
AnonPlayer5 – I am not doubting you, but I am curious how you could possibly know with any certainty that “There are plenty of players that read the comments here.”.
Look at my name
or how about all the player chats their have been
AnonPlayer5 said “Look at my name”
So I guess that makes me Jimmy Fallon?
Dammit! I had you pegged for Matt Damon all along.
LOL … Matt is a good choice, but he’s already being done by Brock Holt.
If given a choice, I’d rather be Ben Affleck anyway.
Or Tom Brady.
@Dune – If you read any of the player chat transcripts (especially those of current MLB players) they state that as much as 90% of MLB players visit the MLBTR site. That number seemed awful high to me but it was pretty cool to learn that a lot of current MLB players visit MLBTR on a regular basis.
Anonplayer5 – I appreciate your brevity and levity, but you erroneously assumed I didn’t notice your name, which I did. You still didn’t answer my question. I asked you the question for mor information than just a vague and mysterious screen name (i.e. trying to draw at least a little bit of details from an “anonymous player”). If you want to remain entirely anonymous that is fine, but by doing so you lose most or all of any “street cred” you may have.
Dorothy_Mantooth – I appreciate your candid and professional input, but in my professional career, before i retired, consisted of me not taking all claims/allegations at face value, assuming them to be true, and found follow-up questions were valuable at getting closer to the truth. If a player wants to be anonymous, I respect that, but I also believe just because someone claims they are an MLB player doesn’t mean they are. I have been a huge baseball fan since the mid-1970s and I am just trying to get some insight about this debacle of a labor situation from accurate sources.
Sorry, but I have to remain anonymous. Take it for what it’s worth
@dune. The recent player chats on MLBTR have confirmed many MLB players do visit this site. I hope they read the comments because they are simply asking for too much. If they don’t like it go get a job most Americans are lucky to have at 1/10th of the MLB league minimum salary. After 10 weeks of this public fighting all over the media out in the open I am mad. At least 1994 didn’t have the internet as a sounding board. Fact is the the MLBPA hosed themselves in the past. Take your raise and play ball. Or lose more fans which will eventually kill the sport. My favorite team just won the World Series and I’m still not interested in running out and buying any merchandise. One word for the players. Boycott.
What a ridiculous comment. Players are employees and employees create the profits, not the owners. They are at the very top of their field in the entire world. They deserve more than what they are getting now, especially the young players who make less than minimum.
Without the players, the owners don’t have a product. Period. Stop licking the boots of billionaires and stand up for workers.
Nobody should be asked to reveal themself here. We post under aliases so that we can speak freely without generating unwanted publicity or repercussions for what we say. Why should players be any different?
bcdroyals: Will you gladly pay more at the ballpark for tickets and concessions when the owners pass all the players pay raises into the fans? I could be wrong, but I am guessing the owners will pass all cost increases into the consumer like most businesses do.
FeverPitchGuy – Fair enough. I wholeheartedly agree. I didn’t intend for my line of questioning to push that envelope, but I can see why it appeared to. It’s just that in this anonymous forum anyone can claim to be anyone, and those with a vested interest in sewing misinformation can be sneaky……
I’m here exactly because of the misinformation being thrown around by the owners and the media. If anything I say seems off, deceptive, or intentionally misleading, please call it out
Dunedin – I completely agree that when it comes to the internet you have to take every claim about oneself with a grain of salt. In fact when he basically said he must be a player because of his handle, I posted a joke as a rebuttal.
But think about it … even if he said he was a certain player, like so many who ask questions in the chats often do, that certainly doesn’t prove anything now does it? Only MLBTR can verify a player’s identity, and only if the player agrees.
FWIW – I’m convinced it’s a player. My BS meter is usually highly accurate, and after reading several of his posts I firmly believe he’s legit. I just don’t want anyone to scare him away by pressuring him to reveal himself.
BCDRoyals – What a ridiculous comment. Owners take the financial risks and hire employees, giving them jobs. Players are employees and employees are partially involved in creating the profits, but don’t take the financial risks. Without the owners, the players don’t have a job. Period.
Your Communist logic is ridiculously myopic. The owners are the foundation of the business, and the employees wouldn’t even have jobs unless the owners had financially laid the effort and groundwork to open the business in the first place.
“Stop licking the boots of billionaires and stand up for workers.” says the unholy Communist Party.
Fan strike
Brewer – Fans are directly responsible for outrageous ticket prices, absurd concession prices, and MLB’s partnership with scalper sites such as StubHub.
If fans did go on strike it would definitely help, but it will never happen. You will never see that kind of unity.
These are basically non-offers, so small they aren’t going to have any real-world impact, And one variant the Owners are offering what will be for many pre-arb players a cut in minimums? Cool. Perhaps they can charge back the cost of soap in the showers to the players as well. The Pre-arb ones.
Maybe you can point to the concessions that the players have made. Last check it was $5M off of a completely new $110M bonus pool they want owners to create.
Why can’t we just admit that BOTH sides are making the tiniest of concessions? Neither side has made reasonable compromises.
I understand that you are more sympathetic to the owners, and we have a different orientation on these issues, and that’s fine. Players are open to adding playoff games, which are immensely profitable for owners, and have drawn back several asks. If you consider those nothing, then we will politely disagree.
Few people realize that players make very little in the playoffs, and overall expanding the playoffs does not help the average union member. It does, however, help the average owner through revenue sharing.
Bjsguess you summed it up perfectly.
I get the players are underwhelmed. So am I. Very little movement on this from the owners. But if I am the players I bring the next offer back as quickly as I can. It should not take all that long at this point. But also make the point to the owners that if we lose regular season games, there will be NO playoff expansion. Players had already agreed to that in principle, but favor a 12 team playoff vs the owners at 14 teams. So take it off the table if the owners do not want to be serious about negotiations.
I like that idea. no playoff expansion
Except the players want it too, mo money for some of them as well.
So you’re upset that the owners are giving more but not that the players aren’t giving?
Since they’re so unimpressed, find another job or sit back at home.
They are being forced to sit at home. I guess they could offer another deal that the owners reject without reading, but what is the point? Players are locked out homie. They aren’t on strike. The owners locked them out and then keep putting forward bad deals. How is any of this the players fault?
Because what they’re asking for is ridiculous and unprecedented. They can play any time they’re willing to come to there senses and sign a deal. Or not. They’re choice. The lockout has nothing to do with the games not being played. Contract is up and until another one is signed, they’re is no baseball. Lockout, strike, whatever.
It’s unprecedented but so was, supposedly, teams tanking for high draft picks. So was teams cutting millions from their pay roll to save money. So was teams keeping minor leaguers down to save control (aka stealing years and millions from the players).
Unions agree to work on previous deal while new deal is worked out all of the time. Not saying that this union would have, just saying that it wasn’t offered. Owners stopped baseball and it isn’t an arguable fact.
The owners don’t view us as fans, merely customers – if that.
well you are so…
Same difference.
it doesnt seem the pa is budging on anything. theyre both useless at this point but im losing a lot of respect for the pa at this point
I’ll lose more respect for PA if they take a bad deal trying to earn the respect of fans.
Why should the players budge? Owners paid them less than minimum wage for YEARS then artificially kept them down in the minors to keep control of their contract and cut years off their major league careers.
The players have never made less than minimum wage. Stop lying.
Tomahawk, you cannot be serious. The players have never earned less than minimum wage? Exhibit A would be any one of HUNDREDS upon HUNDREDS of minor league players who are paid less money a week than I make, yet have to put in far more hours to stay in game shape away from the ballpark.
Minor leaguers aren’t covered by the MLBPA, which has shown less than zero concern for minor league pay over the year. The MLBPA cares about one thing: free agent money. If you’re a fringe major leaguer or part-time player who never makes it to free agency, the MLBPA represents you in theory only. That union is about maximizing free agent spending — often at the detriment of organizations and the game itself.
The owners suck, too. But neither of these parties have altruistic goals. They’re both about lining their own pockets whatever the cost. They don’t care about the good of baseball or the fans. Why fans continue to take sides in these petty squabbles is truly beyond me.
Sorry guys, but the season isn’t starting on time. Owners continue to make not serious offers. A reminder that the players are ready to play without an agreement. The owners are the ones forcing games to be cancelled.
The fans are well aware baseball won’t be starting on time. MLBPA are not saints in this dispute either. There has been plenty of time to work something out between both sides before the owners did the lockout. There will be long term effects to baseball because of all this. Many of us that frequent this site remember 1994 when MLBPA ended a season prematurely with a STRIKE. Where was the compromise then? The fans paid the price then and they continue to do now. Take a raise which MLB has offered and play. It what unions do. I seen 3 contracts settled over 10 years at a union job. Every time we got a raise business continued and everyone was happy all at salaries 1/10th on the current MLB league minimum.
Another nuttin’ burger counter-offer response today from Manfred/MLB. If I was the players union I would tell Manfred/ML “let’s talk next over a 4th of July BBQ.” By then the MLB will have lost a couple of billion dollars and walking out the door the MLBPA should say “oh’ BTW the expanded playoffs are off.” The MLBPA offer will look pretty cheap by then…
The owners are going to put a lot more in the young player pool. The players are and owners will meet in the middle on the luxury tax threshold.
They are not chasms apart. This will get done by the end of the month.
i tend to believe that this isn’t far off, yeah, but the question is WHEN they decide to agree on that middle.
Something about the luxury tax which is important is there is no longer a penalty for being over the cap multiple years. These big market teams are going to go over the cap and more importantly stay over the cap. They never have to reset.
Even though it only went up a couple million dollars, in reality it went up a lot more than that. The Yankees and Dodgers will alway be in on free agents. It’s a huge concession.
So we are really down to how much young players get paid. I can’t see MLB falling on their sword for three million a year. Once the owners agree to that, then it’s on the players.
I think this will get done.
I agree, I always thought March 1 was a real deadline! Pitchers have been throwing on their own and most players only need 4 weeks. I would expect a counter offer by the players coming down as much as the owners have increased their offers, and they meet somewhere in the middle on all issues by the end of the month!
If the poor owners aren’t making any money cause the big bad Union is taking it all, then they could sell and just get out. No one is forcing any of the owners to own a team. If it isn’t a good investment for the owners they could all sell and then no one would take advantage of their good nature and kind hearts anymore.
And the players can find other jobs. Works both ways.
Yeah, completely. Those players who are only high school graduates should quit their jobs that they are in the top 0.01% in and get a job at McDonald’s, simply because they’re asking for what they’re worth.
BCDRoyals – I am seriously trying to ascertain whether your virulently myopic self-defeating anti-owners view is driven by greed or your support for the Communist philosophy, or maybe both. Ever heard of the saying it is not wise to bite the hand that feeds you? Meaning: don’t criticize or hurt those you depend on. If the MLB players think they are so mistreated by the owners why don’t they go find someone else who will compensate them for their gifts/talents/abilities, which are of limited use outside the world of the organized game of baseball? In other words, without the game of organized baseball, of what value to society would having the ability to throw a baseball 90+ mph have? MLB players should be thrilled they are being paid (even at the minimum) very well to play a game. I worked for the Federal Government for over 10 years and was moved around based upon their needs. Did such a commitment cause some hardship to me & my family? Sure, but I didn’t complain; I was just happy to work such a great and fun job and get paid fairly well for it.
Do you apply the same logic for the players? How many current MLB players would be making $700K (the absolutely minimum) outside of baseball? How many at $500K? How many at $200K.
People tend to forget that even the poorest players are considered extremely wealthy by virtually any standard. They are literally the 1%. And, unlike other high-paid professionals, they tend to not have tremendous opportunities outside of the game or using the wealth they accumulated while playing to make investments.
This isn’t to run down players – it’s just basic math. The worst case scenario for any person fortunate enough to play in the majors is to make an amount of money that they would not sniff at outside of baseball. And the upside, you make generational money in a year or two. Sitting on $30M by the time you are 30 is just silly. Way more money than you and your children could ever spend if you show any restraint.
It is simple greed and stupidity..Would rather destroy the game and the countless millions it makes than give up the relatively small millions.either side could lose..It is pitiful.
Manfred is destroying the sport I love!
I confess, I misunderstood Manfred. I didn’t realize that when he said Spring Training would start on time, he meant in 2024.
One way to look at it is that the two sides are too far apart.
The other way to look at it is that there is actually not much else left to negotiate – the issues and framework are basically set, and it’s just numbers and everyone knows where everyone else stands. All that’s left is the game of chicken.
The owners have more power here, but one could argue they also have more to lose by missing games (which is not to say the players personally won’t be effected).
I think the owners are pretty much parked at: here’s what you are going to get, players, and you can sweeten it a very little bit by coming to an agreement.
I think the players are convinced the owners will be so hurt by lost games that they are standing strong but probably still believe they can get major concessions that are just not going to happen.
The final will be something like:
1. NL DH
2. International Draft
3. Luxury Tax starting at maybe 216 and ending at 226, (Which barely keeps with cost of living increases). No minimum payroll requirement. Same basic penalties – though MLB might drop draft penalties
4. Draft lottery of some sort to discourage tanking
5. Pre-arbitration pool at 25 million
6. No substantive changes to arbitration/free agency rules
7. League minimims 625,650,725
And people are going to be like all this for just that!
“I think the owners are pretty much parked at: here’s what you are going to get, players, and you can sweeten it a very little bit by coming to an agreement.”
I do believe that’s their current stance and this is the result of the union getting taken to the cleaners in 2020 and 2016
“I think the players are convinced the owners will be so hurt by lost games that they are standing strong but probably still believe they can get major concessions that are just not going to happen.”
I’m a realist. I do not believe the owners will make major concessions this “early” in the game. They won’t start making concessions until they believe the union is not going to cave. It will take missing at least a third of a season if not more, I believe, for the owners to get there.
Your 1-7 is probably a good guess for what would be needed for the season to start on time from the owner’s perspective but I can promise you those #s are absolutely unacceptable to the union. You also left out the most ridiculous part of the owner’s proposal, which is a complete non-starter, which is the increasing penalties for breaching the CBT
Geez. That doesn’t sound good for my much loved daily dose of Giants.
If it is what it takes, players are prepared to see a season wiped out ?
The only side wiping out a season is the owners. The players are ready to play now without an agreement, as has been done multiple times in the past.
The better way to phrase it is, are the players prepared to be locked out for an entire season to get a fair deal. The answer is yes. I do not think the owners currently believe that to be the case, however.
Ok. Phrase correction noted.
So you play, continue to work on it in the background, and then the terms all get backdated once agreed upon ?
AnonPlayer5 – Okay I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re legit.
I have one question: If the owners are willing to end the lockout and proceed with the season without a CBA, will the players go on strike near the end of the regular season like they did in 1994?
How possible would you say a strike is, if the owners end the lockout without a CBA?
There is nothing to be backdated. The season would continue under the terms of the previous CBA while we work on coming to a new agreement
A strike would be extraordinarily unlikely. The main reason for that being is that the player’s asks are fair, reasonable, and well within the scope for the teams to have thriving economic success. So in the crunch leading up to a potential strike, where the owners would be under far more pressure than now, I’d expect an agreement to be made. The only reason they won’t offer a fair deal now is because they believe they can squeeze the union, not because the union asks are economically unviable or bad for the game.
That said, if you think the players would strike while the CBT has sunsetted, I’ve got a bridge to sell you
Right. Well let’s get that going !!!
Can you provide your source for the total expenditure by each franchise on all operational costs that you used to come to your conclusion that the players’ ask is fair and well within the scope for economic success?
For numbers that you would be able access, the Braves financials are available. Check out Liberty Media’s filings, they are a publicly traded company.
Thanks for the response. I hope you continue to post here, really appreciate your insight.
Only 100%!!
Well, I do think the owners are going to “win” again. (And I think both the owners and the players think the owners are going to “win” again). And I do not expect that much more public incremental back and forth at this point.
This is the problem with the current situation. You and many others, as well as the owners, believe the owners hold the ultimate upper hand and that the union is weak. If the owners knew the true determination right now of the players, we could absolutely get a deal done in time. Unfortunately, I believe it will take many missed games for the union to prove it’s current strength to the owners. Only then will we get a deal. I do hope I’m wrong and that the owners feel more pressured over missing games than it currently appears.
But again, the players are ready to play without an agreement. Missing any games at all is 100% the fault of the owners.
AnonPlayer5 said: “The players are ready to play without an agreement.”
Are the players willing to agree there will be no strike, and make that promise legally binding?
Now you’re going beyond my scope. I can’t say whether that would feasible, smart, or even potentially on the table at all
That’s fair, I appreciate the response.
That’s really the catch, right?
The owners initiated the lockout simply because they knew the Union would strike at a time that would hurt ownership the most.
Early in the season – players are hurt far more than owners. Loss of TV and gate tickets isn’t as significant to owners.
Late in the season – owners get crushed. So much revenue from playoffs and more eyeballs on the game as teams are jockeying for the post-season.
Owners would end the lockout today and play under the expired CBA if the union agreed not to strike in 2022. Players would never agree to it though. So much easier to make ownership out to be the bad guy.
Look – the players deserve a better deal. I’m 100% behind any movement that properly compensates players for their talents and ownership for their risk. Unfortunately, neither side is willing to budge much. It would be great if owners and players actually engaged in legitimate, good-faith, negotiations instead of trashing each other in the media.
“The owners initiated the lockout simply because they knew the Union would strike at a time that would hurt ownership the most.”
There hasn’t been an MLB lockout in over 30 years. It’s very frustrating that the owners have convinced everyone that a lockout is just par for the course in every single CBA negotiation to head off a strike.
“Owners would end the lockout today and play under the expired CBA if the union agreed not to strike in 2022. Players would never agree to it though. So much easier to make ownership out to be the bad guy.”
But only one of those scenarios results in a guarantee of missed games, and that’s the lockout. The looming possibility of a strike during a season without a new agreement is not guaranteed to miss games and for the reasons I said above would be highly unlikely to miss games at all.
“Look – the players deserve a better deal. I’m 100% behind any movement that properly compensates players for their talents and ownership for their risk. Unfortunately, neither side is willing to budge much.”
Why should the players take a bad deal?
“It would be great if owners and players actually engaged in legitimate, good-faith, negotiations instead of trashing each other in the media.”
One side is engaging in good faith negotiations, the other is not. The player’s offer on the table right now, would not only be better for the game, but it addresses fair compensation issues, and still allows teams to be very economically healthy. I do not understand how you could say the union is not negotiating in good faith just because the owners are anchoring themselves to an insulting offer
Haha, yeah as soon as an actual commitment is brought up, you can’t speak to that. You practicing for your political/pr career, should baseball not work out?
People can say they’re not because they aren’t personally involved and extremely biased…the complete lack of of self awareness in that comment is hilarious
Which, from the owners POV, would render the whole idea moot, since it would put the players in a similar position to ’94 – the power to hurt the owners even more than they’d be hurting themselves.
And after the playoffs conclude, we’d be back at square one.
I might be more naturally predisposed to take the players side. But hearing the players saying what they really want is competitive balance is arguably inconsistent with wanting the luxury tax threshold raised so much and the penalties for violating it reduced or in not wanting to consider a hard cap.
Not that the owners have totally consistent positions.
What makes the negotiations more difficult is this is not really a two party negotiation but is necessarily being conducted as a two-party negotiation.
On the owners side – for example – the big market teams and the small market teams have different interests, needs and wants. Not to mention that some teams are looking for a way to use the CBA to do what the CBA really cannot do, i.e., make poorly run teams magically well-run, or vice-versa.
On the players side (and let’s include agents here!), there are also multiple camps – the stars – who want unlimited earning potential, the younger up and comers – whom everyone says they care about and sorta do, and the mid-tier free agents – whom everyone says they care about but don’t. There is real income inequality in the players side that also creates different interests, needs and wants.
Then there are the respective representatives – who have their own interests – “winning” or “not losing” – and who may be coloring the negotiations knowingly or not.
We, as fans, also have different wants. I am a Dodgers fan – so I’d love the luxury tax threshold raised to 275 and no draft pick penalties. But I understand a Pittsburgh Pirates fan does not want that – and the part of me that just plain loves baseball knows that’s probably a bad idea. I also don’t want expanded playoffs – I think the beauty of the baseball season is that it is meaningful – playoffs should reward the best teams, not be a totally new second season that matters – but I imagine less competitive teams and players who want all teams to spend more want more play off spots because it will incentivize more teams to try.
It’s all a mess. But both sides need to remember just how good they each have it. And that the fans matter the most.
“But hearing the players saying what they really want is competitive balance is arguably inconsistent with wanting the luxury tax threshold raised so much and the penalties for violating it reduced or in not wanting to consider a hard cap.”
Players are asking for the CBT to better reflect growing team revenues. Payrolls are close to flat compared to 2015 yet revenues are significantly higher. On the philosophical issue of a hard cap in the name of competitive balance, that’s a more nuanced discussion and much blurrier where the line should be drawn, I’ll leave for another time as I think it’s more productive to focus on what’s actually on the table.
But more important to real competitive balance is making sure that every team is trying to win. It is quite obvious that there are numerous teams at the bottom that do not care about winning or fielding a competitive team, whether that be because they are actively trying to tank because of the state of their roster(Orioles), or whether that’s because ownership is interested in keeping payroll as low as. possible to line their own pockets(Pirates). Ownership does not care at all about this as evidenced by them fighting on the issues that would try to make the bottom teams more competitive.
“It’s all a mess. But both sides need to remember just how good they each have it. And that the fans matter the most.”
This is definitely not lost on the players but we are just the employees and owners have said we can’t come to work. The owners are unilaterally cancelling games, we have no say in that right now. We’re locked out. A season can start without an agreement and we’ve said we want to do that, the owners said no. And that would be a season governed by the last CBA where we would getting none of the changes we are trying to achieve in a new deal(except for the sunsetted CBT).
I would be very encouraged as a fan if what you are saying is true, i.e., that the owners would drop the lockout and the players would not strike. Cause I want to see baseball. But what would then be the incentive to get a deal done – without impending doom? I think that would hurt the players chances of improving the CBA. And I definitely would like to see the players be able to improve it.
The owners are not dropping the lockout, so it’s a bit of a moot discussion anyway. But it’s not a requirement that every CBA is agreed to under the gun and it’s bizarre that people are expecting that to be the norm now. Of the last three CBAs, two were agreed to in November and one in October. Two parties interested in the health of their sport and good faith negotiation should have no issue coming to an agreement absent the threat of a work stoppage.
Sure, but you are kind of making my point: this time, impending disaster seems to be what is needed. Maybe on both sides but certainly on at least one.
It’s only needed because the owners think they can squeeze the union, not because the union is making unreasonable asks. It shouldn’t be needed if both parties negotiate in good faith. It is a very bad situation
Luxury tax will need to be a bit higher, and pre-arbitration pool would have to come up to 40-50, would be my guess, but what you say has some validity. IMHO
I agree with most of your numbers, except for the bonus pool, 25 million is less than million a team, that is a weak number when you think about it. We are talking about players who had great years here.. Players may have to concede to 30 million the first year, but it should increase from there every year of the contract.
Since when did they agree on an international draft?
You’ve also left out that they’re still fighting over potential playoff expansion: The owners want 14 playoff teams, while the players want to either stick with the current 10 or increase to 12 at most.
The luxury tax threshold has gone up tremendously but people don’t see it.
Only a few teams approach that cap. Those teams have been resetting to get under the cap so they don’t pay a larger penalty. Now those three or four teams no longer have to reset, the penalty is gone. Those teams also no longer are going to lose a pick.
The owners are far more right on the cap than the players. The players are far more right on young players getting paid than the owners.
Right now it’s both sides fault.
That’s nonsense.
Owners propose more than doubling the tax rate, which has never been more than 20 percent.
They proposed a draft penalty then removed it so now it’s “gone”? There never was a draft penalty on the first tier.
They propose a one percent increase in the CBT threshold. Inflation was 7 percent last year. Merely keeping the threshold the same adjusted for inflation would put it at $225 million. Start there.
Per the terms of the last CBA, the CBT has expired
“There shall be no Competitive Balance Tax in place following the 2021
championship season, and the Parties expressly acknowledge and
agree that the provisions of this Article XXIII shall not survive the expiration of this Agreement”
No, the owners are not right on the “cap”. In fact, they couldn’t be more wrong.
Furthermore, they know it and they know that as long as they hold that position there will be no baseball. They will drop that ridiculous proposal when they have to.
Simple and straightforward – please sign the petition:
chng.it/m8rLjtnB
If they won’t listen to each other, then the voice of the fans will be heard!
Time to consider replacement players. Change their names on the Jersey to M. Troot and J. DeeGroom. Fans won’t notice.
Saying a fan won’t notice the difference between Trout and a replacement player, I like saying a auto enthusiast won’t notice the difference between a Corvette and a Yugo.
Thanks for the like!
Raffey and Garcia could be replacement players too. High Five Slap a$$
I SUPPORT THE OWNERS!
Simple negotiations, a deal will get done soon. It doesn’t matter which side you represent, you are trying to get as much for your side as possible. That’s the point of a bargaining agreement. It’s getting late and both sides know missing games is not the answer. You will see both sides start to give in, and a deal will be reached soon.
Looks like time to face it these folks are going nowhere fast.. Owners want staus quo.. Union wants change….Guess they can play all their games for free on Twitter???
Not shocked. My guess was that the season will be delayed by 4-6 weeks and the millionaires playing a game for a living will still whine and want to be paid for the full season.
I don’t think Manfred has the stones to stand up for the sport. I get it that he’s picked for his job by the owners – but his primary responsibility is for the stewardship of the game. There’s been no activity out of the Commissioner’s office that indicates he cares about the game or the fans. I do hope his tenure is short.
This is disgusting for the average person to watch a bunch of millionaires and billionaires fight over who gets how many millions. Does it matter?? They will just raise ticket prices. The only way to bring to maintain their profit margin. The only way to bring these guys into reality is to not go to games, watch games or buy merchandise. There has to be a breaking point where fans say enough is enough.
Newsflash: they raise ticket prices every year. Because they can.
are they ever “impressed”? at least “unimpressed” sounds better than where the union was before.
“Unimpressed” like me watching Tony Clark when he played for the Yankees.
To say I’m underwhelmed and unimpressed by both sides would be a gross understatement. Neither side has any credibility. Neither are negotiating in good faith.
But the owners aren’t even seriously negotiating. They’re more or less publicly admitting that they just don’t care. They don’t care about improving the on field product, they don’t care if the season’s delayed or for how long, and they don’t care what a serious delay would do to the sport. They care about how much their wallets will inflate over the next 5 years and about exactly nothing else. It’s depressing.
Play Ball!
I’d place the MLB offer in the insignificant statistical variance category… when a person says they want $105 for their services and you offer $15.. you have don’t nothing but insult them..
someoldguy – Your argument is entirely subjective and making a BIG assumption that the amount requested is reasonable. Just because someone wants $105 for their services doesn’t mean that amount is a realistic request, either because the job they are performing is not objectively worth that amount or the amount is too high based upon what the market can support.
hahahahaha a market argument when the MLB is a Government granted Monopoly… Get real… the 30 Clubs are all worth over a Billion dollars driven by public financing of stadiums and the guys who do all the entertainment… which has seen MLB value sky rocket.. and now with gambling set to be the biggest source of funds… asking for a share of what you made possible isn’t asking for more than your actual value.. there is no Objective value being paid.. the players are the reason all this is possible.. no top entertainers.. no top draw… and that is the real market..
these negotiations should be fluid. put in a full days work, everyday. The only time they should spend time writing out formal paperwork is when they reach an agreement.
Plenty of old MLB games on Youtube to watch, I will survive.
I wonder how many MLB players have different jobs because they don’t know how to have finical responsibility
Greedy bastardos. Both sides.
Honestly, this latest proposal from the owners is like a restaurant offering to upgrade your baked potato to a loaded baked potato while not giving you any choice on your entrée or how it is prepared.
Can someone please explain from the owners perspective why they’re opposed to raising the CBT? I’ve been hearing the tiring argument since the 2016 championship from a Top market team that the penalties from exceeding the CBT for multiple years precluded the Rickets from a budget that would’ve allowed Theo to go after a guy like Bryce Harper, or a Garrit Cole, etc. I would have thought they’d want to raise the thresholds.
Granted it’s a minority of teams that may have this problem and so is it the teams receiving the redistribution that’s opposed to it as a whole?
Owners don’t want to raise the CBT and they want to increase the penalties because they have never given up their desire for a salary cap since a federal court issued an injunction in 1995 preventing them from implementing one unilaterally.
The players are equally determined to not allow a de facto salary cap to become harder, as we have seen the CBT becoming like a de facto cap over the term of the last CBA.
The owners proposal amounts to a one percent increase per season in the lowest CBT threshold, and an increase from 20 percent to 50 percent tax. The lowest tax rate has never been more than 20 percent.
Merely adjusting for inflation would bring the low threshold up to $225 million. Anything less is unrealistic. At that point, the gap between that and the players’ proposed $245 million isn’t nearly as daunting.
Y’know what would be nice? To read a site like this one and see a pro-management article–one that makes its bias as clear as this one’s headline.
I get that most people glorify the players rather than the organizations which make it possible for those players to earn more than peanuts hustling on local fields/sport complexes. I understand that the average sports fan couldn’t even name the owners of more than their local teams. And I sympathize with the (demonstrably false) notion that we, the fans, have significantly more in common with the athletes than the team owners and league administrators.
But honestly? That’s why writers should take the opportunity to edify their readers about the delicate balancing act all successful ‘management vs. labor’ disputes have needed to perform in order to keep our favorite entertainment outlets not just afloat, but thriving and prosperous. Every time I see a Labor v. Management article here, I roll my eyes even before I’m 1/4 through the headline. There’s no diversity of thought in the sports writing world in this regard–EVERY SINGLE WRITER takes a fundamentally pro-player stance.
It’s lazy. But worse than being lazy, it’s unintelligent. None of the writers here is stupid, and I really would prefer if they began to demonstrate that fact on this particular subject.
Once again, the owners’ proposal shows a lack of commitment to ending the lockout. Their changes are minimal; their offer on the minimum salary represents a pay cut since the last CBA when factoring in inflation. That’s a problem when MLB players are already underpaid in relation to the other major sports, all of which are smaller than MLB outside of the NFL.
What the MLBPA should really look to do is put into place the framework that they can grow from. For example, increasing the luxury tax cap tiers is clearly a goal, but they’d be better off perhaps longer term taking a smaller increase in this CBA, but indexing both the luxury tax tiers and the minimum salary so they go up yearly. The establishment of the player pool money is good and that will allow them to increase that pool every CBA, so the total number to start should matter less than the very establishment of it. This is how ownership slowly switched the revenue share mix away from players by first establishing a framework they could attack with every subsequent CBA. The players won’t get everything back in one CBA. They need to build a better framework.
One area that they should never concede is an increase in the revenue sharing. There is data that clearly shows this is one of the key items that has shifted the revenue share toward the owners and less toward the players, beginning with the increase from 20% to 34% in the 2003 CBA. I didn’t appreciate this until I saw the data and the trend lines. It might be helpful if Tim and Company here show some of of Maury Brown’s and JC Bradbury’s work.
i kind of figured out why im more on the owners side. im normally not; i’m normally on the side of labor
it’s because the players don’t produce anything. it’s not like these are factory workers producing A LOT and are being completely used.
for what the players do, they are already over compensated. and most of that has to do with the owners ability to market them. that’s it. the players are making way more than they should because of marketing. the players need the owners much more than the owners need the players. if they stopped playing baseball right now.. the owners would still be billionaires and the players would have very little skills to do anything else
Do actors “produce” anything?
The players are over-compensated, despite somehow not producing anything? What do the owners produce in the realm of baseball? They make more money than the players, mind you, since they’re the ones writing the checks.
This is an incredible take to suggest that baseball isn’t a product, and that the ones being paid to produce it are somehow overcompensated for their part of the whole that the owners rake in.
Heard they want to remove the free taco if a player steals a base in the World Series.
Toml – CBT stands for Competitive Balance Threshold, and is there to help ensure that the respective team payrolls are at least SOMEWHAT comparable. The large market teams and owners with deep pockets already spend far more than a market like Cincinnati or Kansas City (or a third of the league for that matter) can sustain, and absent the CBT, it would only be worse.. I know if you live in New York or Los Angeles that you’d like your team to spend as much as possible to put the best product on the field, but for competitive balance purposes, it’s really not fair to the other smaller markets. There’s already a disparity, and without the tax, it would only grow even more lopsided, as evidenced by the teams that spend right up to the threshold but refrain from going over. I see no real appeal in having one team with, say, a $1 billion dollar payroll every year going up against teams with a $75 million budget. You may as well let one team put 11 guys on the field and the other stay at nine. If we really wanted to see who does the best job assembling and fielding a team, all the payrolls would be the same, with local tax differences or cost of living allowances. I know that isn’t going to happen, but I’m sympathetic to the ten or so teams that aren’t in mega markets or have deep pocket owners, and I prefer a league where everyone has the same chance of putting a good team on the field.
Looks like another 60 game season.
It’s clear that neither side truly believes the game is in jeopardy. If they did, there would already be a deal in place.
The game isn’t in jeopardy. MLB isn’t the game. Billions in revenue for the league/players is endangered, sure. But for most people, a lockout-shortened MLB season is like hearing your favorite show got renewed for a 9 episode season instead of 13 episodes. Disappointing, but hardly a reason to stop watching it.
It is reason enough not to go to the games in person though. I want be giving any of my money to baseball anymore and I am what most people call a baseball fanatic.
Well, sure. Personally I haven’t been to an MLB game in person for about a decade because I’d rather watch the broadcast than deal with all the expense and all the hours of driving and traffic. I just go to a closer AAA game a time or two a year.
MLB doesn’t really care if you go to the games in person, though. 2020 showed that even with 0 fans in the seats the league would go on with only a mild income disruption. And even of the people who attend in person, it’s the ones who buy the luxury suits who matter a hundred times more than you or I.
Not a fan of the free draft picks for having a top 5 ROY player. Whatever small incentive it may give to avoid service time manipulation, it gives more incentive for a team to tank. Play all rookies and you’re bound to get somebody in the top 5, enjoy your free draft pick. And teams with great farm systems like the Rays will be rewarded with an even better farm system and a pat on the back for not spending, while a team full of veterans is essentially losing a draft pick.
I’m kinda old – in my 70’s now. Baseball negotiations seem like Groundhog Day – the same ol’ same ol’ every five or six years. The one constant is they don’t give a rat’s ass about the fans – know we’ll keep coming back, paying crazy prices for tickets and hats and jerseys, etc. I have absolutely no sympathy for either the greedy players or owners.
I’m not from the US, but the “us v them”culture in the MLB baffles me. Once this is settled, both parties could do worse than spend the next 5 years building a few bridges.
I am as angry as most and fed up and “want” to say FU to baseball.
But man as a Phillies fan since the 70’s, I can’t…Seeing Harper “get Philly” and want to be there…and recruit…..and put 110% each day in and out…..
It’s weird as I make what I make and Harper has gazillions…..but I feel bad for him and what could potentially happen during his next 10yrs as Schmidt’s true heir…..
bryce harper is an ungrateful, unlikable cretin who went to the Phillies because they offered the most money. *That* is why he went to the Phillies. bryce harper is not the true heir of Mike Schmidt in any way, shape or form. By the way, funny how the Nationals won the World Series immediately as soon as bryce harper left for a few extra million.
Hmmmm,
He had larger $ offers but for shorter terms….he wanted a long term deal and did NOT want a no trade clause….If you follow Phillies -which you don’t- you’d see his affinity for the city…in the things he wears and his community involvement….
Was born/raised in Philly. I appreciate your comment, but must disagree…
As for the Nationals “thing” c’mon…..you sound like a p’od Nationals fan…?
PS as for my heir apparent comment, Rollins/Utley could have had it, but stuff happened…Harper IS that guy, sorry you hate that…..
I can’t wait for March Madness to start.
At this point, I have cancelled all plans to go to any baseball games. I know, who cares what I do other than me and my family. Sorry kids, but Dad is fed-up with these millionaires and billionaires. I took off a few years after the last baseball strike. The steroid era
I meant to say the steroid era actually got me watching baseball again.
The problem is that “March Madness” (or Spring Training to most of us) is being cut short while they waste so much unnecessary time on these negotiations.
Enough of these playground games. Just settle this with a game of Poker.
Why can’t they just split the difference down the middle on the bonus pool and luxury cap amounts? It’s going to take too long if they keep adjusting their offers in such relatively small amounts!
Probably because they care about the actual outcome of the negotiations.
Yeah, and the outcome will eventually wind up somewhere similar anyway once they finally exchange enough proposals. They should care more about starting the season on time than trying to get an extra few million here and there.
The owner has said they don’t want to spend any more money or very little. Look at the bonus pool money offer 10 million players want 100, they will do pool but won’t funt it. More teams don’t spend even 100 million on salaries I think the CBT should also have minimum payroll like 70-100 million or no revenue sharing, CBT should be 230-250 million and raised tide ti inflation.
When guys start losing money because they aren’t playing games is when people start truly listening and having a sense of urgency. Take the NFL, tell a player he will lose a game check if X,Y,Z doesn’t happen. Them dudes change course immediately. No one wants to hear about billionaires arguing with Millionaires or people getting paid 5,6 hundred plus when the average person is questioning whether to pay the light bill or gas up their car.
To be fair, the small number of games per season means each individual one matters a lot more in the NFL.
NFL player and owner work together as partners for the good of the game. MLB owners think the players are employees and they have to do what owners want or else. The owners look down on players.
Sounds like the owners are willing to more or less hold their ground and hope the players crack. Even if it means no season.
I am probably not alone in saying that I am getting really sick and tired of both sides.
Hold strong owners. These players have a short shelf life and can’t make that kind of money anywhere else. Starve them out. When they get worried about losing their cars and houses they will come crawling back.
Players hold strong. These owners are greedy and don’t want to lose money. They are weak and will cave. How do you guys think you got to the point of making millions for playing a game. Most you guys couldn’t make anywhere close to 6 figures doing anything else.
I don’t think this offer is horrible but, after the last CBA I feel like the MLBPA wants a clear win in these negotiations.
Are the CBA negotiations a game? winning and losing in collective bargaining is very subjective.
I think on February 22, the MLB owners and the players union will finally agree to a new CBA and put an end to the work stoppage once and for all.
Owners are greedy and don’t want to give up anything that has always been that way. Will the owner ever do what is good for baseball, no?
Sounds like they need to go to arbitration.
This is such bs……I can remember the last time this crap happened and it just about killed baseball. How do you think it will go this time!? Players need to get off their high horse and DO THEIR JOB rather then trying to unbalance the league. You get paid enough, and the owners have given up a ton in this last offer wile also retaining some integrity of the game. Stop crying and get back to playing ball boys!
Dysfunction
McKayla Maroney
Manfred said he was very optimistic about this new offer.
I am very, very disappointed.
I was not expecting much but this is even worse than I was expecting.
I gotta work in the morning, Life Goes On
Such silly little changes, I would be embarrassed to show my face in an interview about this!!!!!!!!!!
Good Night All
Us fans are getting just what we want. Good job MLB and MBLPA. I completely can’t understand why the NFL is more popular, NBA is surpassing MLB, and how both the NFL and NBA players are far more popular than MLB players. The great way that everyone in MLB is taking care of the fans is stellar.
See, this right here is the position more fans really should take. It makes no real sense for any of us to favor either side with any kind of vigour and yet up and down this thread you see many commenters take up one side or the other. Like you, I’m on the fans side because its our money they’re fighting over anyway.
Exactly. I don’t understand why anyone of us fans would take up for either side. Neither side is fighting for us fans. All we want is baseball. All we want is a truly functional league where all 30 teams (soon to be 32) have the same level playing field for success and keeping organizational icons (like George Brett in KC, Roberto Clemente in Pittsburgh, Should have been Miggy Cabrera in Miami, etc.) . These billionaires and millionaires are only fighting for how much more money they can have over each other – the money we support them with. If you ask me, us fans should have our own union and go on strike when they don’t give us what we want in the majority of all 30 markets.
Give me baseball! Give me a league that works for all of our markets! Us working class people love this stuff! This is our passion!
Marlins – It’s kinda hard to argue the labor dispute will damage MLB while you point to NBA and NFL success, when both the NBA and NFL have had their share of labor disputes.
In fact the NBA cancelled 16 of 82 games per team in 2011 because of a lockout.
And 464 games were cancelled 1998-1999 because of another NBA lockout.
Thanks for proving our point though, labor disputes never have longterm impact on a sport’s popularity.
@Fever Pitch Guy
I wasn’t arguing that. The thing is that they didn’t take it this far because those leagues have Cap&Floor systems. Nearly all of their markets (especially the NFL) succeed in markets where MLB fails or can’t fathom having franchises because they’d fail in too, and their stars are far bigger than all of the stars in MLB.
Kids know LeBron, Tom Brady, etc. from the NFL and NBA far more than they know Mike Trout, Bryce Harper, etc. Kids enjoy playing Madden or the NBA games (even at times the moments of the NCAA versions) far more than the MLB video games. Their athletes get far more endorsement money than MLB players do. I can go on and on with this.
The facts are that our loved game is being handled like trash by the privileged, who seem to not get that we keep them all paid. The NFL and NBA have their challenges like every industry does, but they don’t cross the line of screwing their fans completely over like MLB continues to do. And this is done by both sides. If they cared about us, they’d get to a Cap&Floor system with a sort of “Larry Bird Exemption” equivalent, where competitive balance is there, only owners that can spend gain ownership insteadof the good ole boy club, all players get paid, and all of us fans FROM ALL 30 MARKETS can enjoy our teams as best as we can. Not this garbage we’ve endured of the greedy continuing to fight to get one over on the other, 2/3rds of the markets can never have sustainable success unless they use the methods that the Rays do (who can’t keep their team together and have 0 championships), we see E!SPN and FOX Sports promote the NY and Boston teams ad nauseam (even in years when they suck) while doing a wizzle poor job at covering 2/3rds of the league, we see 2/3rds of organizations serve as farm teams for the big market teams, on and one and on with the other garbage we’ve had to see our league decline into becoming,
Sorry, but our beloved league has let us down compared to the NFL and NBA, and the fact that they are continuing to lose younger fans leads this game down the path of one day being behind the NHL and soccer in this country. It’s sad, but that’s what they’re doing to us – both sides.
Marlins – MLB is already behind both the NFL and NBA in popularity. That’s because it’s considered an “old person” sport, too slow paced and not enough physical contact for the liking of our nation’s youth. That’s why MLB is doing everything they can to speed up games. Before you know it, the “only sport that isn’t timed by a clock” will have virtually every aspect of the game timed by a clock.
But the drop in popularity has absolutely nothing to do with labor disputes, and baseball is still by far the most affordable of the 4 major sports.
As for hockey and soccer overtaking baseball in popularity among Americans, not a chance.
Both sides doing their best to further alienate the fans.
Good job, morons.
The people come to baseball games because of the players. Players can play because of the owners. Players or employees nothing more. Players need to remember that. Owners deserve to make a fair return on their investment and some have invested over 1 billion dollars.
The fans are what matter.
The fans come to see the players. The players can play because of the owners. The owners deserve to make a fair return on their investment and some have invested over $1 billion dollars.
The fans spend their money and TV eyeballs watching the game. The fans are the most important.
Then explain to me why the #2 satellite TV provider no longer carries any regional sports networks that carry Major League Baseball. I’ll give you one hint: it’s not about “the fans”.
HOLD THE LINE, OWNERS. YOU HAVE OFFERED MORE THAN ENOUGH. NO MORE. THE COUNTRY WON’T REALLY CARE IF THERE’S NO “BASEBALL” SEASON AND YOU KNOW IT. THE PLAYERS NEED YOU A LOT MORE THAN YOU NEED THEM. STOP GIVING IN!!!
Players are greedy, hope they sit out all season!
The only loser in all this is the fans. At 615k year for 6 months work a MLB rookie or bench player will earn a minimum that puts them in the top 1% of income earners in the US. That’s also assuming the rookie wasn’t drafted and paid a nice bonus. No matter what the final number are the owners will pass the increase on to the fans with higher ticket prices or concessions. These are successful businesses men and it won’t come out of there end. While I don’t side with them either, I think they are looking out for the fans a little. They have the data on the dropping attendance and turnouts. I think a prolonged lockout is going to be devastating to the game.
The entire thing has is already out of control. Last year I went to one game taking my dad and bother to a White Sox game for Father’s day. Tickets and parking were over $350 dollars and to be honest the experience wasnt great. I truly love baseball and I look forward to the days when my young son and I can bond over baseball. But when making a decision to go to 4 or 5 games with him a year or depositing $1,500 into his college account there’s really no choice. I hope they get this fixed with no cost to the fans.
I will miss baseball, but I am not watching if Opening Day gets canceled. My sports fix will be Stanley Cup Playoffs and the PGA Tour until College Football and the NFL return in September. See you in 2023.
woops
The owner did not offer anything that will move the needle. The owner still has the take it or leave it attitude. Refuse to may reasonable increase in CBT level not even raise to keep up with Biden inflation. No spring train till April Owner won’t mear in middle on any issue unless owners make more money. It takes 2 to work out a deal, the owner is not even trying to get a deal worked out.
Sure Lar.
Lawyers 1
Fans 0
Decades of trickle down saturating in the minds of people already inclined to blind faith and obedience has created a disturbingly large number of boot lickers.
They NEVER ever begrudge the greed or bad faith of the rich, the owners, the “Job Creators” (as if you need to worship them with a rain dance for jobs to fall from the sky) and top .1%. That is to just be assumed, understood and accepted.
But, as soon as a fellow peasant wants a few more crumbs than they are getting….”GREEDY!”
Cheering for their exploitation because you feel even more exploited instead of refocusing the anger and attention on those doing the exploiting…?
This instinct, this need to nuzzle up to wealth and power is quite odd. But, they love it.
Entry level salary immediately puts them in the top 1% of income and average salary is in the top 1/10th of 1%- to go along with lifetime benefits after 6 weeks on a MLB roster. This isn’t remotely comparable to a real worker vs owner struggle. Not in the least. To refer to the players as ‘fellow peasants’ is stupid beyond belief. Again, entry level income immediately puts them in the top 1% of income and average salary (more than $4 million) is in the top 1/10th of 1% of income- for 7-8 months of work each year playing a game with a stick and a ball and mittens. You so frequently hurl personal insults at other message boarders, yet here you are posting like an idiot.
half a million crumbs minimum and 40 million or more crumbs maximum…
Rocker refused a pre-draft physical. I don’t know how the proposal is based on his situation?
It is time to revoke MLB’s antitrust exemption. MLB has enjoyed a 100-year-old free ride whereby they can operate without adhering to regulations that most other businesses follow. If we’re headed for a lost season, let’s kick the crutches completely out from under the owners and players and rebuild this thing from ground zero.
Revoking baseball’s antitrust exemption would require an act of Congress and that is the least of anyone’s concern inside the Beltway.
Congress has succeeded in dodging this issue for decades. The only action they’ve taken vis-a-vis baseball is to extend MLB’s legal protections even further, and the minor league lawsuit is a direct result of it. The lesson is, unless you want to be a dog with a flat nose, don’t chase parked cars.
Prediction, no games before June 1. Could be July, or August. Or 2023.
Baseball, we have a problem.
I think there is a group of smaller market teams that are holding things up on the owners side. On the players side I think that they are trying to make up too much all at once after falling behind the past few CBAs. It took the owners multiple CBAs to get their advantage, it will take the players multiple agreements also to shift things in their favor. Unless they are prepared to lose a whole season and completely revamp the entire system. This round i think they can make gains in minimum salaries, bonus pool, and anti tanking. Next round push for higher luxury tax, and a salary floor. Short of a floor there is no way to force owners to spend if they don’t want to. Players biggest gains as a group would come from pay for young players and reducing teams tanking.
If the league agreed to significantly raise the tax level and cut revenue sharing, a few large market teams would just spend more on the top few free agents, and even more teams would decide they couldn’t spend enough to compete and start tanking. Reducing the demand for non premiere free agents, further lowering average salaries. It would be good for the 1% of players making most of the money already, but harmful to the majority of veterans. But then again 5 out of the 7 members on the MLBPA panel are Boras clients.
Baseball attendance peaked in 2007 with 79 million fans in the seats. Since that time game attendance has slowed declined. Covid cost MLB the entire 2020 season. In 2021 attendance was only 45 million. The pandemic cost the league 90 million tickets over two years that were not sold. Into this environment the MLBPA thinks they are going to get a raise. This is nuts. The players should come to the table with proposals to cut costs and save the game.
Plenty of money for both sides, quit arguing over percentage points. If they’re going to miss some games, go ahead and miss them all.
Pay for major leaguers is enough but of course the players want more for their egos.
C’mon, Max Scherzer, what are you proving?
What the players should do is put 10% (or more) of their income into a fund to improve player compensation where it IS needed — at the lower levels of professional baseball. The organizational types — the 85-90% who will never play MLB — are necessary for the lucky few who will make it so they will have teams to play on and develop.
Both sides need to read the room. America is in a crisis, both from the pandemic and the hundreds of thousands of lives lost as well as our partisan political landscape. Overdoses, suicides, murders up…so many things on the minds of the typical American, and so many of us are in desperate need of something positive and a distraction, something that sports once provided. And now we get this, a work stoppage as rich people argue with rich people and a big middle finger to the fans.. And then when attendance falls further as the sport becomes increasingly unwatchable (three true outcomes), both sides will claim it’s a hangover from the pandemic or they’ll ignore it or they’ll come up with some stupid gimmick that further bastardizes the sport we once knew and love as a novelty to draw people back.
The only people who care about the sport are the fans, To the rest of them, it’s just a money-making machine.
Actually most useful things are for money making which makes them useful
I agree Dev. I know more people personally who’ve died of suicide in the last 1 1/2 years than from Covid 1-0. People are getting desperate the inflation is at its highest rate in 40 years thanks to shutting the country down. The rich are so rich it doesn’t matter to them. It’s the poor and the middle class the outrageous inflation prices are affecting. It’s mostly the middle class that essentially fund baseball with their business and this is what we get. The 1% fighting over what is change to them while the rest of the country suffers. This needs to end ASAP. 10 weeks is way to long already. Take your raise and play ball MLBPA!
Bighead..facts…unless MLB believes those sales numbers are flawed like a bubble and they don’t trust the underlying economic future of the game. These quantum cable contracts made these previous owners wealthy. I wouldn’t want to buy a team now. 10 years ago they’re worth 100M? That smells like bubble. And for a game that has the oldest avg fan age at something like 61. Pump n dump.
We’re heading toward a player owned league at some point.
When MLBPA is asking “for the world” they will continue to be “unimpressed” with MLB’s offers. MLBPA wants everyone to think they’re negotiating in good faith. If they were they would be demanding to meet (in a closed room) and not stop negotiating until a new CBA is reached. Meeting for less than 2 hours once a week is not negotiating.
The notion that MLBPA is asking for more concessions than the owners is way off base in terms of the actual proposals both sides have put forth.
MLB directly attacked six year free agency, proposed to abolish arbitration, and still proposes draconian penalties for going over the CBT threshold, while only increasing the threshold by one percent per year over the next five years.
The players proposed limited exceptions to the six year free agency, moving the arbitration cutoff back to where it was for 15 years, and a bonus pool of $100 million for pre arb players. That 100 million represents 0.00022 percent of the 4.4 billion increase in revenues that MLB has seen over the last two CBA’s. from 2012- 2019.
The players are not trying to make up for all the lost revenue share over those ten years, but they want to get a share going forward of a 10.7 billion industry rather than a share of the 6.3 billion industry that MLB was in 2012.
The most offensive proposals still on the table are:
MLB’s one percent increase in the CBT threshold
MLB’s increase in tax rates from 20 to 50 percent in the first tier and beyone
MLB’s converting minimum salaries to fixed salaries, so they’re also maximums
MLBPA’s moving the arb deadline back to 2.0 years
MLBPA’s proposal for $100 million in a bonus pool
Once the sides move off those positions, we can begin to see some real movement.
MLB’s approach to this CBA is like watching paint dry. Their collective “compromises” equals a setback for the MLBPA. Unless ownership gets serious, we are going to rest at a standstill.
players need to be pd on performance
And the Tix cost for 4 to attend a game at Nats park is now on Avg (not nose bleed seats) @over $150. Add in modest concession food (which is crazy $$) consumption = another $125… and you can see why I have NO sympathy for Owners & pissed at all MLB. Get real people!
Starting not to care anymore.
I’m “unimpressed” with the MLBPA aka MLB PU.
I would rather watch SCABS or AAA players take over because they will be trying to prove who they are instead of these cry baby MLB Players.
I think that most of ‘us’ really don’t know what is going on behind the scenes. I really think the core issues are that the owners have been abusing the anti-trust exemption and leveraging baseball operations to fund their side businesses. These side businesses are what have made franchise values dramatically escalate. The real discussions are between the MLBPA lawyers and the Owners lawyers. Without a doubt they have been working relentlessly behind the scenes.
The players and the union know the truth, and they want a piece of the pie. If and when some of these side businesses start to fail and some of the owners end up being upside down on all their leveraged operations, the owners will then reduce player salaries to compensate. In 2019, last season before covid (as an example), revenue sharing gave every team almost $220 million dollars. The teams then had an additional 52% of local revenues on top of that. The problem is that teams fail to disclose what these revenues and expenses are because they refuse to open the books. It would be very easy for them to create ‘additional’ expenses which are related to their side businesses.
For example, the Ricketts have been buying all sorts of land around Wrigley field. They have opened up luxury condos, hotels, all sorts of commercial property around Wrigley, and also own 25% of local sports network. Any economic downturn (Covid for example) will put strain on the commercial side businesses. The owners can then covertly trade away star players in the guise of a rebuild, and accordingly reduce payroll.
There is no oversight, and no way to know what the owners have been doing, because they refuse to open their books. If they open their books, ‘everyone’ will then know what they have been doing and pressure will come to congress to remove the antitrust exemption.
The players don’t want to bite the hand that feeds them, but at the same time, they have legitimate grievances. They are playing hardball, because they know they can wait out the owners. The owners have ‘ghost towns’ around their stadiums that have taken a massive hit because of Covid these last 2 years. Not having baseball start on time will hurt the owners more than the players.
Agree with pretty much everything here, except the possibility that Congress would ever revisit the antitrust exemption. They’ve successfully avoided doing so for decades. The players have no significant political influence, and the owners have a lot of cash to throw around, and they do.
Xero i agree mostly with what you say but you can take the majority of the same explanation and apply it to any company or business with the exclusion of congress part. Usually most businesses biggest expense is labor and the quickest way if you are losing profit or hitting the red is reduce salary / players / workers / benefits. When it comes to businesses they will do layoffs but in baseball its harder as you still have to pay out the rest of the contract since it fully guaranteed and no immediate savings where if there are layoffs there is unemployment to deal with but there is an immediate savings as you dont have to pay benefits and less in taxes as people can only receive so much from unemployment.
There is great misunderstanding of what is left of MLB’s anti trust exemption. The Curt Flood act of 1998 removed the anti trust exemption as it applies to the reserve clause and labor issues. What remains is the territorial exemption that allows them to control things like TV blackouts, franchise movements, and the law specifically exempted minor league players.
So the MLBPA has only a limited interest in the anti trust exemption,but members of congress could use it as leverage in the event that they feel MLB is doing harm to the national pastime. We haven’t seen a display of any such intentions from congress, but we might.
The legal analysis doesn’t quite agree. While technically the Curt Flood Act removes the antitrust exemption for labor issues, the union risks decertification if they ever invoke the Sherman Act in an impasse. This being the risk, it’s an option that may exist on paper but is utterly impractical to exercise in practice. Not sure what the Act did as a practical matter for the Reserve Clause as it had been eliminated in all but name by the mid-70s.
Congress couldn’t agree that the sun rises in the east. The chance that they would get themselves involved with solving baseball’s minefield of labor issues is overestimated at zero. But that’s just my opinion based on the history and politics.
“MLBPA ‘is expected to submit counter proposals within a week.’” Gee, why hurry? Why not within a month? MLB owners should concede to all of MLBPA’s demands provided they can institute a system where the players don’t get a paycheck while a lockout exists. Then, we would see how fast they submit counter proposals.
during the lockout they dont get paid. I think their first check is april with the start of the season but please correct me if i am wrong. The owners dont make big money until the playoffs which is september october. so owners have lots of time before they have to blink.