In a recent article, I tried to make the point that MLB, in general, wants something resembling the status quo in these CBA negotiations. But there’s one area where I was wrong and MLB’s proposals have been clearly worse than the status quo, and that’s the competitive balance tax.
Let’s look at how MLB’s proposed tax rates compare to the status quo from 2017-21.
MLB’s goal here is clear: make teams much less likely to exceed the base tax threshold at all. However “soft” of a salary cap this was in the 2017-21, MLB is attempting to harden it. These tax rates say, “If you go over the tax thresholds, we’re really going to make you pay.”
MLB doubled down on the goal of hardening the CBT as a cap by adding new draft pick penalties. The status quo: any club that exceeds the second surcharge threshold ($250MM in 2021) would have its highest available selection in the next draft moved back ten spots. If a team is set to pick in the top six, that is left alone and the second-rounder is moved back ten spots.
MLB’s latest offer is far more extreme than this: a team in the second tier (MLB proposes $234-254MM for 2022) entirely surrenders its second round pick, and a team in the third tier ($254MM+) forfeits its first round pick.
I don’t think anyone would argue with this: MLB’s current proposal is for a much more restrictive competitive balance tax, without even getting into the matter of the thresholds. So, how would they defend it? The answer is that MLB likely feels it’s proposing an even trade by eliminating draft pick compensation for signing free agents.
Every winter, somewhere between six and 20 players at the top of the free agency class receive a qualifying offer. Under this system, the worst possible penalty for signing a qualified free agent is forfeiture of a second and fifth round pick and having your international bonus pool reduced by $1MM. The Yankees, for example, made this sacrifice to sign Gerrit Cole. MLB’s pitch may be that under their new CBT plan, teams would have forfeited fewer draft picks than they gave up to sign free agents during the most recent CBA (something I intend to explore). I think that in MLB’s eyes, they are offering to transfer the burden that a certain number of players at the top of each free agent market bear under the qualifying offer system to the team level as a CBT penalty.
Elimination of the qualifying offer system would remove the Craig Kimbrel/Dallas Keuchel type situations, where those players waited until after the June draft to sign because of the drag caused by draft pick compensation. It would also remove the dynamic where a player accepts a qualifying offer and ultimately earns less in his career as a result, like perhaps Neil Walker.
I would guess that the MLBPA doesn’t consider this an even trade whatsoever, and has likely told MLB as much. The MLBPA likely takes major issue with drastically increased CBT penalties. Consider Giants pitcher Alex Wood, who tweeted,”If penalties increase under the CBT/Luxury tax IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE THRESHOLD IS MY GOD. Make the threshold a billion dollars it doesn’t matter. Teams already don’t spend bc they use the current penalties as an excuse not to. Imagine if the penalties got worse. SMH.”
In a theoretical sense, I disagree with Alex. One could argue that the thresholds matter more than the penalties, because more teams stop right before the base tax threshold than actually pay the tax. In recent years, only two or three teams have typically paid the tax. To take Alex’s example to the extreme, if the base tax threshold actually was a billion dollars, and the penalty for exceeding it was that the team needed to play defense with only eight players on the field at all times, the MLBPA should take that deal because the penalty is irrelevant if teams don’t exceed the base tax threshold.
However, there’s a slippery slope concern here on the side of the MLBPA. History has shown us that once the players surrender something to MLB, it is very hard to claw any of it back. Case in point, the players moved arbitration eligibility from three years to two in 1980 and gave that back in 1985. Since then they’ve only managed to win back 22% of the 2+ class, and MLB is currently drawing a hard line on a return to the pre-1985 arbitration structure.
That’s why the MLBPA will likely draw their own hard line and refuse to further increase the tax rates or the draft pick penalty for exceeding tax thresholds. That might be one of the MLBPA’s non-starter stances. And if the MLBPA thinks elimination of the qualifying offer system is of modest value, keeping it in place would not be a major problem.
MLB should stop proposing this supposedly even trade. It’s like in a fantasy baseball league where a guy keeps making you the same offer over and offer, telling you it’s fair. It’s just not conducive to making a larger deal.
MLB should take increased CBT penalties off the table entirely, and should also propose leaving the qualifying offer system completely intact from the previous CBA. That would be, literally, the status quo. Then, with the clock ticking, the two sides can get down to solving the $51MM gulf between where they think the CBT thresholds should land by 2026.
HankHill
Can’t wait for the season to start…in August
BaseballClassic1985
More like 2023
8791Slegna
That’s optimistic.
Redwolves3
Enough rhetoric. MLBPA / MLB / Commissioner get serious and get the CBA done. The FANS want to see BASEBALL.
For Love of the Game
Tim’s last paragraph says all you need to know. Players don’t think that dog hunts so the proposal should be completely dropped.
emac22
Sleazy move by mlb.
Draft pick compensation only impacts individual player salaries.
In exchange they want to reduce the percentage of revenue the players get?
Again?
stan lee the manly
How is negotiating labor terms “sleazy”? They aren’t blackmailing players, threatening families, moving under the table money, etc., they literally just made an offer lol. You can disagree with the offer and not see it as even, but to call it sleazy is super disingenuous.
GareBear
It’s sleazy because owners initiated the lockout rather than keep the off-season going under the previous CBA (which would have been implemented through ST). Instead, they are trying to extort players by preventing them from signing. The terms of the previous CBA were already owner/team friendly, but they continue to make these horrible offers in the hopes that they can pull the rug out from under the union under the pressure of ending the lockout. It is extortion, screw the owners.
budman_63755
So the owners should have waited and let the players strike on August 1?
We’ve been here before. Then you probably lose the end of season and playoffs.
I don’t blame them for wanting it settled before a new season begins.
stan lee the manly
So using your logic, it will be sleazy of the players if they strike? Because it’s the exact same thing from the other side.
ilikebaseball 2
MLB is going out of their way to be total D-bags.
BaseballClassic1985
Maybe 1 player on each team making $30+ million can take a bit less so their team can afford to pay a few other players. Do you hear me, Max Scherzer? Greedy slugs
stevecohenMVP
If the team is willing to pay said greedy slug, then they deserve the money and the team deserves the burden. Don’t be a slug yourself
BaseballClassic1985
Enjoy Lindor tying up your payroll for the next 13 years. Lol He wasn’t worth half of what the supposedly “brilliant” Cohen paid him
Pads Fans
With the Met’s revenue expected to be well over $500 million in 2022, Cohen can afford Lindor without it even denting, let alone breaking, the bank.
Lindor made $22.3 million in 2021 and was worth $26.35 million in performance. That was in a very bad season for Lindor. Just getting back to his career average would make his production worth north of $50 million to the Mets. Maybe Cohen IS brilliant after all. We know Cohen is worth billions and you aren’t, so at the very least we know he is smarter with money than you or I.
jimthegoat
People probably aren’t ready for this conversation yet but Francisco Lindor is no longer an elite hitter. In fact, at this point he is slightly above average at best.
By the way, it’s smarter with money than you or me*, not you or I.
JoeBrady
Pads Fans
With the Met’s revenue expected to be well over $500 million in 2022,
=============================
According to Forbes, the NYM 2021 revenue was in the range of $362M their last full season. I’m curious to see how it becomes $500M this season.
gbs42
jim with the grammar burn! Oooohh!!
Deleted Userr
@JoeBrady If you disagree with know-it-all Pads Fans he accuses you of being WCR and mutes you.
stymeedone
It doesn’t matter what Lindor was worth in performance. The Mets are paying for his added revenue production, which was minimal. No increased revenue from ticket sales, no increase revenue from making the play offs, a few shirt sales early in the season before they realized he is what they were seeing. It would be great if Cohen was playing in a five x five league.
Mantle536
“jimthegoat,” you’re NOT a writer & you’re 100% WRONG in saying that “Pads Fans” was wrong in writing “we know he is smarter with money than you or I.”
“Pads Fans” was CORRECT in his English usage: you were grammatically INCORRECT.
When deciding whether it should be “I” or “me”, you add the word “am” (in this case) after the word “I” or “me” and remove the two words “you or” from the sentence.
You’re then left with two possible sentences::
1) “we know he is smarter with money than me am,” which is obviously grammatically incorrect.
2) “we know he is smarter with money than I am,” which is grammatically CORRECT.
So, “jimthegoat,” don’t try correcting people’s grammar when you don’t know what you’re talking about. And, yes, I’m a professional writer, with more than 45 years of experience (now retired).
Yankee Clipper
GBS42: I’ve repeated that sentence in a Clint Eastwood voice and it’s freaking hilarious…
I initially pictured it in Joe Rogan UFC knockout yell-speak also. Still pretty funny.
HistoryBelongstotheVictorsInArms
Joe Brady – Well marry total costs to inflation at the average between 7-8% and that total revenue ticks up to an illusory $389.15M, only $110.85M to go from there lol!
jimthegoat
@Mantle536 You clearly aren’t a professional writer otherwise you’d know that “I” is a subject pronoun whereas “me” is an object pronoun. In the sentence “He is smarter with money than you or I/me,” “He” (referring to Steve Cohen) is the subject of the sentence and “you” and “I/me” are both objects of the preposition “than.” “Me” is the correct word. Just like how “I” am the correct person and “you” are not.
gbs42
This grammar battle may be the best part of this entire comments thread.
A_Cespedes_For_The_Rest_Of_Us
yup… clearly the problem is greedy players, not the billionaire owners who have deliberately closed their books so nobody can see the ridiculous amount of money they are making off fans while they simultaneously cry poverty…
Players. Are. Not. The. Problem.
BaseballClassic1985
Keep going to games and paying obscene $ for tickets, parking and food, plus the time and aggravation getting to and from the game. And you’re pleading for players – even marginal ones – making, on average, more $ than you’ll make your entire life.
aragon
who are charging the amounts you cannot afford? certainly no players. when the yanks built the new syadium and started charging crazy amount who set the prices?
jmac70
And your pleading for the owners who are billionaires? that makes no sense. The players could make less money and the owners would still raise prices. Id rather the money go to the players who put their bodies on the line and have a limited window to make money than the owners who don’t do anything.
gbs42
’85 – it has been explained time and again that the price of going to a ballpark is very loosely correlated with player salaries and basically a matter of supply and demand on the part of the owners. If you refer used to learn and acknowledge that reality, that’s on you.
Pads Fans
@baseball You are pleading for the owners who are already BILLIONAIRES to make more billions and for the people that you actually pay to go see to make less money? .That makes no sense at all.
bigjonliljon
If the players don’t like there current wages and professional choices, my local McDonald’s is hiring.
gbs42
jon with the classic “get a real job” take. Ugh…
They’re highly skilled athletes.
Vizionaire
why can’t billionaires share their wealth so that less fortunate families make comfortable living?
Bill Skiles
It’s called socialism and it does not work.
Vizionaire
democratic socialism works very well in northern europe. and they have the happiest people in the world.
besides, it is the same concept ‘baseballclassic85’ is proposing.
HistoryBelongstotheVictorsInArms
Vizionaire- You mean those small countries whose total populations fail to match little known’s like California and Texas? Not to mention their formerly homogenized cultures allowed them to move as one and made space for Capitalism Inclusive Socialism to thrive; a benefit soon diminishing and complicated with each wave of refugee.
stymeedone
They do. They are the ones signing the paychecks of the players who would be much less fortunate in the real world w/o baseball. Not many other jobs looking for people that can hit a ball with a stick as their main qualification. You could play golf, but that requires performance for pay.
Vizionaire
but then without those highly skilled players owners have hardly any income from the game of baseball.
Pads Fans
That is not the case at all. The players in every other major sport sport make between 48.8% (NFL) of total revenue for the sport and 51% (NBA). In MLB it was 38% including all benefits in 2021. While revenue went up 30% for the owners during the last CBA, the median salary went down 20%.
The teams can afford to pay more. They are just greedy. Its time the players got tough.
Inside Out
Like you, a person too cheap to pay for an mlbtr membership but read away and whine anyway. Grow up.
MileHigh Baseball Fan
It would be helpful to see some more data on how/if players have had their earnings reduced. What are league-wide player salaries (sum of all payrolls)? How has that changed over the last 20 years? Also, what is the distribution for player salaries? (How many players earn the league minimum?) What are some estimates for how league revenues have increased? Also, call me crazy…..but I think revenue sharing should be based on the team’s REVENUE, not their payrolls.
gbs42
Total player payroll is lower now than it was in 2017. A greater percentage of players are making the league minimum. TV contracts continue to go up in value. Franchise values continue to skyrocket. That’s the quick summary.
stymeedone
I’m sure part of the reduction in amount per player is because they recently increased the number of players to 26. Set payroll amount divided by 26 rather than 25 is a smaller number. During the pandemic, temporary extra roster spots were filled by players mostly at league minimums. That drops the average as well.
Sadface
I also think part of that reduction is due to teams not wanting to pay marginal players that much or at all. So those role players who were making 2 to 3 million are losing jobs to younger league minimum guys who do roughly the same job. So the best free agents get their money, but the 2nd and 3rd and lower tier guys are getting squeezed. In some cases (a peak Max Scherzer) it’s worth it but some teams will balk at paying one guy the same price as getting two or sometimes 3 guys.
The_Voice_Of_REASON
Another great article, Tim- thanks.
I support Ken Kendrick
I support Liberty Media
I SUPPORT PETER ANGELOS!!!!!!
I support John Henry
I support Thomas Ricketts
I support Jerry Reinsdorf
I support Bob Castellini
I support Larry Dolan
I support Charlie Monfort
I support Christopher Ilitch
I support Jim Crane
I support John Sherman
I support Arturo Moreno
I support Mark Walter
I support Bruce Sherman
I support Mark Attanasio
I support Jim Pohlad
I support Steve Cohen
I support Hal Steinbrenner
I support John Fisher
I support John Middleton
I support Robert Nutting
I support Peter Seidler
I support Charlie Johnson
I support John Stanton
I support William DeWitt
I support Stuart Sternberg
I support Ray Davis
I support Rogers Communications
I support Lerner Enterprises
stevecohenMVP
We salute you, billionaires. It doesn’t matter that none of you care about us regular folk and we look like dollar bills with mouth and feet as you walk passed us.
elmedius
That’s how all businesses look at us right?
Codeeg
Can I have some money? I’ll like your comment for it.
stevecohenMVP
Actually yes
HistoryBelongstotheVictorsInArms
You realize they foot the bill, the stress, and the operation of/ development of future success of each and every team here, bordering on a social good story.
User 2079935927
Yawn
Ducky Buckin Fent
I like how some of the fellas have turned their “I SUPPORT THE OWNERS!” or “I SUPPORT THE PLAYERS!” take into a sort of make-or-break status move on the board. That part’s interesting anyway.
Yankee Clipper
I SUPPORT THE DUCKY!
PitcherMeRolling
“Make-or-break status move on the board”? If there are adults here that consider status on an internet message board, I have bad news. You ‘lost’ a long time ago.
lucas0622
Your list is hella outdated
PitcherMeRolling
Imagine typing “I support Liberty Media”, like that’s a stand.
thornt25
Nowhere near a fair trade. The QO sucks for a few players, but can’t be worth all that much in a given year.
Deleted Userr
This article read more like a rant comment that gets posted on this site than a normal article. And I’m not complaining.
gregpitikus
I agree harambe, and I also agree that it could be a good thing. If even a few people on both sides (players, agents, people somehow connected to ownership, etc.) can get out of the unrealistic, out-of-touch, one-sided informational bubbles they’re in to check this site out and hear some smart, well-balanced takes on the various issues, who knows… maybe it will start to click that they are ALL going to lose if they don’t start seeing the broader picture and finding a way to start actually negotiating and making some legit compromises.
lollar2112
Are the owners and MLB even trying? How about doing SOMETHING to force some of these guys to spend money on their teams. Fans aren’t paying to watch them on the field or TV. The players are driving the revenue any owner makes. Then the owners just act like they lose money, yet don’t sell the team (and only REALLLY wealthy people invest in them).
More of this info needs to be brought to the mainstream . Unfortunately it’s difficult to understand and boring to most and won’t lead to clicks and therefore ad revenue, so mainstream doesn’t cover it.
HalosHeavenJJ
Here’s what I don’t get about the current system.
Let’s say I’m Arte Moreno. I’m paying more into the revenue sharing pool than I’m getting out. So other owners are getting my money.
Do I want them to pocket my money? No.
Do I want to have a half empty stadium or spend more coin on bobbleheads or something when the guys who pocket my money bring a crap team to my ballpark? No.
Really, the majority of owners would need to sacrifice Nutting and a couple other cheapskates to benefit the entire league. Make the revenue sharing be tied to payroll.
AgentF
MLB just keeps firing trash back at the PA. They have shown almost zero desire to negotiate and seem, in my opinion, happy to wait out the PA until they get exactly what they want… which grows likelier the longer this mess drags on. Trashy commissioner, trashy owners, just trash everywhere.
allweatherfan
MLB is offering ridiculous terms knowing they will be “negotiated” down to what we have now which is what they really want.
BlueSkies_LA
And maybe that will happen, around August 1st or so. Something to look forward to. Baseball, maybe not so much.
HalosHeavenJJ
I’m not a big fan of the repeat offender distinction. I think the ability to reset the tax basis to zero has a bigger impact on the truly big spenders. Once every few years they absolutely do cut back severely to get that tax basis reset.
I am a fan of a tiered tax system similar to our income taxes. You hit that tier, you pay. Doesn’t change if it is your first or fifteenth time hitting it.
I’d also like the monies raised by that tax to be distributed to smaller market clubs IF they are forced to use them on payroll.
That’s how competitive balance happens.
rememberthecoop
Instead of the other owners worrying about Steve Cohen’s spending habits, they should be concerned with owners that don’t spend. Notice they want a cap but no floor.
barryr
The players have made it clear they do not want a floor. The owners first proposal included one.
nbresnak
The way MLB treats it’s minor league players, it’s disgusting. The only way players get anything is if their fortunate enough to make it to MLB. Then they have to wait 3 years to even get to arbitration. Then any 3 years before becoming a Free Agent to bet on yourself to get as much as humanly possible. The players have every right to reach for as much as possible after everything they have to endured just to get there. This draft picks attachment to Competitive Balance Tax is ludicrous idea from the owners and needs to be scrapped immediately.
Get back to the table and figure something out in the Best Interest of Baseball and its fan or return to the last CBA for 2022 and STOP the Owners Lockout but unfortunately that won’t happen. Sad until something is finalized, whenever that is.
Pads Fans
Both the owners and the players have said that they will not return to the previous CBA.
The owners because the CBT had an end date of 2021. The owners do not want to go into 2022 with no cap on spending at all.
The players because their share of revenue has dropped so precipitously while overall revenue went up 30% during the last CBA. Also because the current system has led to players being much older when they first get called up, much younger when they play their final game, and a record percentage of the players being pre-arbitration eligible (63.2%) and thus making major league minimum or close to it.
hoyce
Whatever fixes the big teams spending $250M and smaller $80M. No way can that work for long
Pads Fans
Make the smaller teams spend more and allow the bigger revenue teams to spend half their revenue.
The Pirates had $285 in revenue in 2019.. It was higher in 2021 because of the increase in the national TV deals.
Teams can spend 50% of their revenue or more and still be profitable. 50% of the Pirates revenue was more than $140 million. They spent $78.3 million and $50.3 million on 40 man roster payroll in those two seasons. That is $150 million they should have been spending on player salaries and benefits.
What the Pirates and a few other teams like the A’s and Marlins did is the bigger problem than the Yankees, Dodgers and a handful of other teams spending $210+ million.
HalosHeavenJJ
And if you combine the research bb-ref did on revenue sharing with payroll numbers it also telling
In 2019 each team received $118 million from the revenue sharing pool. The Pirates spent $78.3 million. That’s $40 million of other teams money that Nutting just kept. And he still had 52% of his local revenue to keep along with the MLB national tv/sponsorship money ($50 million).
The dude is profitable just off other teams money. Forcing him to spend an extra $40 million per year over the life of the last CBA would’ve been $200 million to players.
He’s the worst offender, but add him with a few others and there’s huge money.
Conversely, Milwaukee spent right at $118 million, had a great team, and provided a similar sized market with a great summer.
Yankee Clipper
HaloHeavens: Yes! Why are fans not upset that these owners (Rays too regardless of their “product”) just keep money given to specifically enhance competition? It shows revenue sharing does not work, certainly not this way.
What will work? Take away all the extra $ the Pirates didn’t use and take away any extra picks from their losing seasons.
HalosHeavenJJ
Two things: a floor, which the owners don’t want. A cap which the players don’t want.
Best compromise IMO is to force revenue sharing money be spent on payroll. Yes, this is a floor but it only affects a handful of habitual offenders and the cyclical tankers.
Tiered tax system that is more severe than the players want with proceeds of the tax going to small market teams IF they use it on payroll.
Overall that would send hundreds of millions the players way, still allow the big clubs to act like big clubs, but give us fans a better game.
SaoMagnifico
This is absolutely how the system should work, for the integrity of the sport and the benefit of fans, and it’s interesting that neither the owners nor the players seem to want it to work that way.
Sadface
The owners have said they want a floor if it’s tied to a cap. So they are fine with a 100million floor if the cap is like 215 million. The players don’t want the floor only because it is tied to a cap. But most teams don’t even come close to 200 million. So the players are essentially saying they don’t want the Dodgers and Yankees to have a spending limit. But only so many players can or want to play for those 2 teams. Sure the Yankees could spend 400 million on payroll (and maybe still not make the World Series) but it reduces the choices players have as free agents. I wonder they agree to the CBT being at 275 million with no draft pick compensation and most teams still don’t come close to it, will the players cry collusion?
gbs42
hoyce, it’s worked better than sports with caps. Baseball has had a greater number of different champions in the last 15 years than any other major sport.
Yankee Clipper
gbs: Well said and right on the money, sir!
brucenewton
Cap it up 130 and 160. Salaries are sure to go up along with an increase in fan bases that are engaged.
Pads Fans
The median revenue per team was $400 million in 2021 and will go up slightly in 2022 when there will be no limitations on ticket sales all year instead of just the last 4 months.
Teams can afford to spend an average of $200 million on 40 man roster payroll and still be profitable.
Rick Pernell
……I’m kinda dumb but wouldn’t a much tougher Competitive Balance Tax be in fact a Salary Cap?
Isn’t a hard salary cap a non-starter for the players association?
……and the teams that are NEVER going to approach the CBT threshold, how does it make them to spend more on salary?
HalosHeavenJJ
Yes, kinda, it doesn’t.
the only way MLB should even try to push a harder cap would be in exchange for a floor IMO.
Vizionaire
you sure is not dumb.
hyraxwithaflamethrower
If they were offering the service time rules the players wanted, this might be fair. MLB”s negotiating tactics have been a joke.
DarkSide830
the players claim they want more balance but then balk a more strict tax and want revenue sharing reduced. just saying…
gbs42
If everyone tries harder to win by spending more instead of pocketing the money. Just saying…
DarkSide830
I’m generally anti-tax/cap and anti-revenue sharing, but it’s the league’s strange double-speak that annoys me. They claim to want competitive balance as one of their biggest asks, yet all they propose are eradicating these measures. If they dont care than I don’t either, but why lie about it?
stymeedone
Had to mute gbs42. He says scrap but isn’t man enough to allow anyone to reply to him. Admittedly this would be easier to figure if the owners opened their books, but a lot of the assumptions made seem out of whack. Why doesn’t the PA want a percentage for salary? They have refused it in the past. They also don’t want a ceiling or floor. They claim to want more competition, but then want to change the two items that make the playing field somewhat even, revenue sharing, and the CBT. They point out that careers are shortening, and then want to move arbitration to after 2yrs. Players are cut before arb hearings now if they are replacement level or even above. Why would you want more of your members cut earlier in their careers. There are a lot more regular players than superstars, but they seem to only want to help the top 10% of their members.
atmospherechanger
When I hear players publicly comment in a condescending way towards the owners, I wonder if that has an effect on their relationship with the ownership/mgmt of the team.
I can’t imagine an employee publicly criticizing their employer & not feeling the effects.
bigjonliljon
Is this site MLB trade rumors or what? I get there’s not a lot to write about rumor wise, but report the news and stop creating opinionated commentary of it.
Tim Dierkes
No
Vizionaire
thank you!
Deleted Userr
Haha get ‘em Tim!
Just a nobody
As a person who doesn’t care about who comes out on top of this negotiation I would like to know answers to a few questions.
1. At what profit level do you consider ok for these billionaires to make? I keep hearing they are making obscene profits but all we have to go on is the Braves. Is 10% ok, 8%, 2% break even? If you believe that if owners make any money above break-even is obscene then that is a you problem.
2. How much of revenue should the players make. Take into account that MLB has a minor league system to manage plus foreign baseball academies to run.
3. Why does choosing a side matter to anyone? In the end whether its a lockout or a strike there will be no baseball. I understand that it matters to the players and owners but to the average fan, why do you feel so passionately one way or another? Could it be we are conditioned to like division? Not saying that choosing a side is wrong it is just the vitriol from one side or the other that just makes no sense to me.
In the end both sides benefit from some perks that other sports do not and also have things going against them that others do not. Guaranteed contracts, multiple minor league salaries to pay for, etc
I conclude with one thought, both the owners and players are blessed to be in a sport that pays them well to play a game for a living. Both sides should remember that the rest of us do not.
Pads Fans
Both the Braves and the Blue Jays are owned by publicly traded companies. We can see both teams books.
We know from both teams that they can spend more than 50% of the teams revenue and still have double digit net profits. Even in 2021 they did that. The Braves had record profits in 2021 after having record profits in 2019.
In every other majors sport the players make between 48.8% (NFL) and 51% (NBA) of total revenue and the team’s books are open. That is a fair range. In 2021 the players made about 38% in MLB (including benefits like team contribution to pension and per diem and housing on the road). They have a long way to go to make it equitable.
I pay to go see players, not owners. until the system equitably compensates players, I will be on their side. Players take all the physical risks and have a career that averages 3 years. The question is why are you not?
stymeedone
So a team making 10% is obscene in your opinion? Knowing the actual numbers of 2 of 30 teams allows you to extrapolate what % the entire league pays for salary? I do see that you never mention the costs that go with a franchise and a minor league system, which those other sports you compare to don’t have. If 10% covers the cost and operation of the minor league system, wouldn’t that put things in line with other sports? I don’t have the answers, but I don’t think Pads Fan does either.
Vizionaire
anyone who has worked for a large corporations know that books are not to be trusted at face value. there are so many bogus, maybe semi-bogus, items to reduce net profits.
Just a nobody
Pads fans to answer your question why I do not, very simply it really is none of my business. Every thing you said could just be correlated to owners taking risk in buying the franchise. You throw that argument out because you don’t like it. Once again I ask, why do you care so much? If you are a player then I understand. I think I can see why you care so much by the use of one word that is completely subjective, equity. Who gets to be the arbiter of equity?
JoeBrady
Just a nobody
3. Why does choosing a side matter to anyone?
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I have no idea why anyone would choose one side over the other. My guess is that there is some sort of political correlation taking place. Folks that are left-leaning going with the union and right-leaning going with the owners.
But in a case where both sides collectively take how $5B or so, I don’t feel even the slightest bit sympathetic to either side.
BlueSkies_LA
1. We couldn’t make that judgement even if we wanted to as team revenues and profits are secret for the most part.
2. The minor leagues are another profit center for the league, not an expense, in no small part because the players are paid starvation wages.
3. I don’t feel a need to choose sides, I feel they are being chosen for us, when we see MLB makes proposals to the players that no rational person expects them to accept.
Just a nobody
2. From what I understand the league pays the bonuses and salaries of players and most of the revenue from the MILB goes to the MILB owner, could be wrong. Still have all the other expenses.
3. This is an opinion, after reading the article I did not feel like I had to choose either side. Its a labor dispute, whether its the owners or players keeping the games from being played does not matter to me. The end result is no baseball and in the end as a fan there is no way to punish either side if you find them at fault. You pay to see a game, the owners and players benefit. So what benefit is it to you to be mad at one side or the other unless you just want to be mad?
BlueSkies_LA
MLB exerts tight control over the minor leagues. Witness their elimination of hundreds of minor league teams, in order to make the system more profitable. The farm teams are also completely essential to the development of players at the major league level. They really have no show without them. They aren’t a charity, as some seem to believe.
Perhaps we need to constantly remind ourselves that baseball is an entertainment business. MLB owns the venues but the players are the talent we pay to see. Other entertainment industries don’t seem to have the constant problem making that system work but the ones that do it isn’t outlandish to place the lion’s share of the blame on those who run it. And in this case, it isn’t the players, it’s MLB, which it seems to me might be the most poorly run of all the pro sports. And as a lifelong baseball fan, I say that without anger, but with more of a sense of disappointment and resignation.
Yankee Clipper
Perfectly and cogently stated BlueSkies.
YourDreamGM
Profit should be at least 20 30 percent. Anything less than that and it’s a hobby and not a business. That’s the problem. Need to find 30 billionaire fans.
Lefty2
The problem in all sports is that every team has weaknesses but due to salary caps or luxury tax or whatever you want to call it, teams are prevented from fixing those weaknesses. They are prevented in some sports with a hard cap, or restricted as they are in baseball with a penalty for going over a particular amount.
So given that in all sports, the fans of these teams know the weakness up front and know nothing can be done to fix it, so they are forced to watch those weaknesses every week or turn it off.
It would be much more enjoyable if teams could go out and try and fix those weaknesses without restriction. Why limit how good teams can become in any sport? The whole goal is to be the best you can be. Not to be the best your allowed to be.
Parity is not good for sports. It’s good for owners! They make more money that way. But for sports it just makes every team average. I mean that’s the goal of parity.
I’m with the players! Hold out to get rid of the luxury tax altogether. It might take 2 missed seasons before the owners start to see their once $2 billion plus franchise reduced to much less than that. But until something close to that? They will continue to try and screw over the players. Players need to dig in.
amk1920
The MLBPA has really really bad leadership who has no idea how to get their priorities straight. MLB is nothing like any other sport when it comes to draft picks. No one is tanking to draft some project prospect who might pan out years down the line. Teams go off the board all the time.The Orioles are getting Kjerstad regardless if it’s #2 overall or #5 overall. Trading anything draft pick related for a stricter luxury tax penalty is a massive win for the owners. The players association shouldn’t even care about draft picks. Once a forfetied 1st round pick for a QO free agent went away, there was nothing left to fight for on that front.
Pads Fans
The OWNERS are asking for that trade off. The player’s union has rejected it
amk1920
Players still want something done with the draft to address tanking. That shouldn’t be used as a bargaining chip.
nukeg
I scratch my head at why MLB continually protects the small market teams, often to the detriment of the league.
The Rays and As have shown you can compete with (and beat) teams like the mighty Yankees with smart draft strategies and asset management.
Delaying free agency is all about protecting the small market teams and this competitive balance tax increase is no different.
Right now MLB is shooting itself in the foot with an AK-47. Stop protecting the weak teams by overly penalizing the good ones. Get better!
SaoMagnifico
The Rays have no fans in significant part because their brilliant strategy to win without spending any money involves them trading away every one of their best players just as they’ve become fan favorites. It’s an innovative and interesting approach to the game that unfortunately also happens to be cold and alienating.
We need a salary floor too, not that the players are asking for one.
Yankee Clipper
“ involves them trading away every one of their best players just as they’ve become fan favorites”
The reason the Rays do this is so they don’t spend any of their own money. It’s not brilliant, it’s a scheme and nothing more. Their scouting & development is good. But their business plan is no better than the Pirates. It’s to not spend ownership money at all costs and use revenue sharing to float the payroll. Trade guys as soon as they impinge on that bottom line.
Terrible, terrible business model. You know how I know? Because now that big-market owners are trying to copy it, it’s going to create a stagnant system for anyone with talent that’s due a big paycheck. That’s also why the players are so against it. It’s regulating players’ pay by creating profit-only system for owners.
It’s not healthy at all for the sport or competition. But, many are fooled. And, I am not anti-owner, but am I certainly anti-Rays business model.
SaoMagnifico
In case it wasn’t clear, so am I. It’s interesting in an abstract way, but it’s off-putting and it’s obvious why the Rays don’t have fans.
stymeedone
@SaoMagnifico
That’s a falacy. Here’s a list of players that were with their current team 6 years ago.
BAL- None
BOS- Bogaerts, Bradley Jr (reaquired)
CHW- Abreu
CLE -None
DET- Cabrera
HOU- Altuve, Casto (reacquired)
KAN- Perez
LAA- Trout
MIN- Buxton, Sano
NYY- Hicks, Chapman
OAK- None
SEA- None
TAM- Kiermaier
TEX- None
TOR- None
ARZ- Ahmed, Peralta
ATL- None
CHC- Heyward
CIN- Votto, Suarez
COL- Blackman
LAD- Turner
MIA- None
MIL- Peralta
NYM- None
PHI- None
PIT- None
SDP- Myers
SFG- Belt
STL- Molina, Wainwright
WSH- None
Due to players becoming FAs after 6 yrs, no team keeps their stars. Every team has turnover. Trout is the rarity, signing long term with his original team.
Yankee Clipper
Excellent work, Stymeedone.
PitcherMeRolling
The average tenure of MLB players per team over a significant period of time would be much more useful. Sao didn’t say anything about keeping free agents.
yeah, sure!
anyone else catch themselves trying to x out of the tax table, thinking it was an ad?
just me?
jeffmaz
Yet the owners don’t want to pay minor leaguers for spring training.
SaoMagnifico
As if it’s good for the game for Wall Street bros like Steve Cohen to just be able to buy themselves a superteam. There *should* be tough penalties for blowing way past the CBT threshold. Set the thresholds higher, by all means, but unrestricted spending is going to kill the game’s competitive balance even as it makes a handful of already very rich players even richer, and it will do the opposite of address the gross imbalance between players making league minimum salary for the first three years of their career and players like Max Scherzer making nearly $43M.
Best Screenname Ever
Glad to see MLB toughening up the CBT. I remember when Steinbrenner used to make a point of blowing by the thresholds. The only 3x team now is the Dodgers but I don’t want to see another Steinbrenner situation.
If the union doesn’t like it, I’ll happily go a couple of seasons with MiLB.
luckyh
Have a salary floor so teams stop pocketing the compensation, and actually spend it on the players. Ridiculous how many teams get away with that.
phantomofdb
Neither solution is good. Massively increasing the threshold and reducing penalties is going to screw up parity. Maxing out penalties is going to hurt the players too much.
Seems like a rule where “you must spend at least 80% of your revenue sharing dollars on player acquisition” is a much better solution. If you don’t spend it, you have to give it back to the big market teams.
Then when the yankees sweep the twins in the playoffs again the twins’ fans can revolt and say “well if you didnt literally pay the yankees money so we didn’t have to acquire a player maybe this wouldnt have happened”
mustache101
I don’t know what to think of all of this… but the only one’s I feel nobody cares about is the fans… I try to see both sides but it’s hard… when an mlb player turns down a 350 million dollar contract because there “worth more” there limiting the mid tear free agents…. I’m baseball first but nfl is king now and Aaron Rodgers in his long career has made 263.2 million just in contracts…. He’s accomplished far more then Soto career wise if the top takes alittle less there’s more to spread around.. but the top don’t care they just want to get paid… on the other hand the owners are not helping either this is a joke offer and I understand the owners locked the players out why can’t the owners lift the lock out and make a move of positivity that a deal will be done then we can get spring training going and work it out in that timeframe… it’s not fair to the fans and I think the owners and the union need to realize this I have already lost money as I was planning my first family trip ever to Arizona and there won’t be games we are debating what to do…. We may just fly into Vegas and make it a Vegas trip but that’s not really family friendly but they don’t care about the money I’ve lost it’s not millions or billions but thats a lot of money for my family to just not get what we paid for (non refundable plane tickets) let alone they keep emailing me to renew my 20 pack of tickets I can’t do that I may do a 10 pack but I doubt I’ll do that it’s hard to tell your kid no when we do it every year… let alone I pay for cable just for the games has to be charter or direct tv or they don’t carry it Bally sports or bust… if I buy mlb package I can watch every team but mine just stupid… sorry for my rant I’m not fully educated in the negotiations but as a fan I feel I’m the only one getting screwed in this…. Let alone my son is talking with soccer now his heart is in baseball but baseball is telling him to get lost it’s not about him it’s about money… your killing the future of the sport
mike156
The Owners are replaying the same strategy as last time….dangling a small concession to a small number of players in hopes of enticing a bigger one back in return. The last time, MLBPA fell for it. This Owner ask will permanently reduce salaries without addressing ML minimums, service time, and tanking. Just, “we need to pay you less”
mustache101
The problem with mlb is contracts are top heavy… if your a super star you want the world then you strap the mid tear I get the qualifying offer hurts also but the nfl has a tag… but the best of the best don’t need 350 million dollar contracts… I’m sure they can hold out for ever there paid it’s the non arb players that will suffer.. again it’s the fans that suffer from this…who’s going to pay me back… nobody and I don’t make millions… it’s lost money for me but who cares about the fan as long as players are paid they just assume we will come back… a warning I’ve lost thousands of dollars I want to come back but you won’t have steroids to save you this time
Pete'sView
I lean to the players, but really, it’s impossible to be sympathetic to either side.
Pay minor league players and first year players more. Arbitration at 2 years.
Guaranteed contracts suck more often than not. That’s on the owners, but it ensures mediocrity at the expense of younger, more productive players.
NeilM
This league – more than any of the others – seems always be their own worst enemy
Near 50% of players made the league min last year – and it looks to me like the owners want to create a system that allows that to grow
The players fighting against an International Draft – only benefits a few players – not the MLBPA as a whole – makes no sense – and fighting revenue sharing – which also only seems to benefit a select few players making 30M+ a year – not sure why Scherzer is negotiating his point of view HAS to be skewed
Yankee Clipper
I’m really confounded at this move by MLB which I see as completely wasted on increased CBT. The reason? They use the existing CBT as a cap anyway, so this tells me they are trying to stifle NYM & LAD, the two teams most willing to surpass the CBT. And that’s what they’re drawing their line in the sand on. It seems they could get further with addressing different requests, but whatever.
azcrook
No sympathy for either side….they are holding the fans hostage….wake up boys…you are losing your source of income(the fans)….you screwed your faithful spring training fans….many people paid for travel and lodgings up front and now cannot cancel without more expense. You have grossly overrated your hand and now you are going have to pay for…
kodiak920
Can we all agree; “a pox on both houses”.
PitcherMeRolling
No. The owners are mostly responsible. A pox on their estates.
Mantle536
The Owner’s position is disgraceful on the proposed increases in the Tax Rates for exceeding the salary cap. And their proposed tax increases make it clear that this is, indeed, a Salary Cap. There’s no other name for it when you increase the penalties to as high as 100%.
What’s disgusting about this is that MLB is saying we want to penalize teams for trying to field the best team possible. Think about that. MLB is, in effect, saying, “how dare you try your best to field a great team!”
I understand the view that teams like the Rays & Reds can’t compete financially with the Dodgers, Yankees & Mets, but this isn’t the way to solve that problem.
The owners should share more of their revenue amongst themselves and stop expanding into cities that are financially unable to compete with larger markets. They should also consider contraction for cities that can’t support a competitive team or require teams to relocate to areas where they can be financially competitive: that’s capitalism.
It’s hilarious that some fans refer to the players’ position as “socialism,” when the owners are the ones who are proposing an anti-capitalism position for their sport.
If the owners were in favor of capitalism, they would allow teams to spend whatever amount they chose to, without any penalties. So, what the owners are proposing is a form of socialism for Billionaires, whereby every owner makes big bucks, even if their fan base doesn’t support them sufficiently.
Yankee Clipper
“ players’ position as “socialism,”
I don’t think socialism is a correct description on either side of the equation. But, you bring up a valid point, 536, that the owners are proposing a universal share, heavy-tax-laden, equity-based system laden with handicap-style incentives to falsely achieve economic parity (certainly not performance).
I’m not siding with the players, they have their own issues. But this is a major problem with the owners’ operations and the players are correct in attacking this, even if for the wrong motivators.
Sadface
I agree that the least profitable clubs need to be moved or perhaps contracted, but some areas should also allow for expansion such as the New York area could probably have 1 or 2 more teams with all the Mets and Yankees make there. Imagine Brooklyn Pirates or California Rays.
Yankee Clipper
Bro, I’m totally in. NY was the hub of baseball. NY could support at least one more team. I think expansion in certain key areas would be wonderful. But allowing owners like Stu, Nutting, etc allow for piss poor ownership. Hal, who should be a key influencer for major markets, is so enamored with small market swindling that he’s trying to create a big-market version.
Look, the brought back the Nats and that is very successful imo.
PitcherMeRolling
The more we learn, the more we find out the owners are increasingly at fault. If this keeps up, I won’t blame the players at all if there isn’t a season (or seasons).
Yankee Clipper
Pitcher: As a multi-sport athlete and fan, I’m down to watching only baseball. Many issues I won’t go into here, but some mirror what baseball is going through now, and I saw negative impacts in those sports that made them less enjoyable to watch.
Anyway, I hate to say this, but I think the most beneficial course for reflection on both sides is if baseball sat out a year or two. They may both finally realize what they’re missing. And when they return, it may be necessary for them to win the favor of the fans instead of ignoring them.
The_Voice_Of_REASON
Or a decade or 2.
PitcherMeRolling
The players are still engaging with fans as much as they can. Many go above and beyond even when there aren’t issues.
Fan appreciation is almost all on ownership and we know how that group feels about us. They keep telling us how stupid they think we are.
Pax vobiscum
I was going to write a lengthy post but realized I don’t really care anymore.
Vizionaire
i can say with 100% conviction that the owner buying a team is not taking any risk as long as players are being taken care of and there is no lockout.
User 2079935927
I love the Angels. I’ve followed them since Nolan Ryan was traded to them in 1972. I do remember the players going on strike around that time.
No matter how much the Owners and The Players try to screw this damn thing up., Baseball prevails.Fans always come back
If I was owner of a MLB team I would do what’s best to maximize profit and growth. My team would continue to increase in value no matter what happens. You can’t blame them for that.
I, can’t blame the players trying to get a much as they can from the owners. The players have relatively short time to make as much they can. after all
The players are well taken care of. Besides the money they make, They stay in the best hotels. Fly Chartered planes. They get $100.00 a day per diem.
And have a great pension on top of making at least $600K per year.
MLB now takes in about $12Billion a year. They have a lot of revenue streams. TV/Radio.
They have Corporate sponsors. and Merchandising . They have their own TV network.
In fact in a article I read it said that’s there no incentive for a team to win. They’re really not going to make that much more money. The article went on to say teams are not as dependent on attendance as they used to be.
I side with the players. They deserve everything they can get. Any team that’s crying “poor”. Is lying.
We know that. They know that. That’s why they won’t open their books. The Tampa Bays and The Pittsburgh Pirates and A’s. of the World are lying. They do this to get municipalities to finance ballparks.. Finance a ballpark for Billionaires Wow..
$9B a year divided by 30. You do the math. And it’s going to go up every year.
GareBear
We are watching pure monopolistic capitalism and corporate greed in a vacuum right now. It is amazing how greedy the owners, literally some of the richest people in the entire nation, are being when players have no other option. Time for an XFL style baseball league.
NostraThomas
I can’t wait to hear Vince McMahon talk about MLBs “sissies and pantywaists.”
brucenewton
Lowering it to 180 sounds reasonable.
SportsFan0000
This looks like a “hard salary cap” as opposed to the present “soft cap”.
MLB had over 10.8B in revenues the last full season. It works out to approximately
350M per team + any extra revenues for local teams.
MLB and MLBPA could, reasonably, go to a 240M or 250M yearly cap situation
based on those revenue figures, phased in.
PitcherMeRolling
MLBPA will never accept a salary cap.