4:47 pm: MLBTR’s Tim Dierkes observes (on Twitter) that the union’s proposed Super Two expansion — had it been in effect this winter — would have gotten around 79 more players to their first year of arbitration. However, Dierkes notes that MLB seemingly remains unwilling to alter the existing Super Two setup in any form.
1:18 pm: Today’s collective bargaining meeting between representatives from the league and the MLB Players Association lasted only 15 minutes, though deputy commissioner Dan Halem and MLBPA chief negotiator Bruce Meyer continued speaking in a side meeting for about 20 minutes afterward (according to The Athletic’s Evan Drellich).
The session appeared to center around two new proposals put forward by the union, as per several reporters (including ESPN’s Jeff Passan and The Washington Post’s Chelsea Janes). The MLBPA had been looking to move the qualifying threshold for arbitration eligibility to two-plus years of service time rather than the current threshold of three-plus years plus all Super Two-eligible players. Now, the union has now dropped that demand and replaced it with a large increase in the number of players who would be eligible for Super Two status. In the previous CBA, the top 22 percent of players who had between two and three years of service time became Super Two-eligible, and thus eligible for a fourth year of salary arbitration — today’s proposal saw the MLBPA ask that 80 percent of players now qualify as Super Twos.
In addition, the union also actually increased the amount of the bonus pool it wants devoted to pre-arbitration players. Whereas the MLBPA began with a $105MM figure and lowered it to $100MM in subsequent talks with the owners, the union has now bumped that asking price up to $115MM. This number reflects the larger number of players that the MLBPA wants to be eligible for extra money in this bonus pool, with the union wanting the top 150 players as averaged by fWAR and bWAR. In the owners’ previous offer, the top 30 pre-arb players would be eligible for a $15MM bonus pool.
Whether these changes by the MLBPA constitute a significant move in MLB’s direction will, of course, lie in the eye of the beholder. Simply moving from all two+ players being arbitration eligible to 80% of them could move a large amount of money toward MLB, and likely is viewed by the players as a significant concession.
Given how the league has been adamantly against any changes to arbitration eligibility, the MLBPA’s request for such a big increase in Super Two eligibility is likely to be flatly denied. Where this might lead, however, is some increase in the Super Two threshold whatsoever. Even if the 80% number is viewed by MLB as an extreme ask, if the owners counter with a smaller increase, the two sides might eventually find some level of acceptable common ground between 22% and 80%.
Getting the league to budge even slightly off their position of not altering the arbitration eligibility would count as some level of a win for the union, as it would help achieve their goal of getting more money to players at an earlier point in their careers. It would also set impacted players up for more money through the arbitration process as a whole, given the larger number of players getting a fourth arb year and then subsequent raises in their other three arb years.
The increase in the bonus pool figure is tied to both the Super Two ask and that broader “get more money to more younger players” goal. Because that $115MM would now be spread over 150 players instead of $100MM over 30 players, more pre-arbitration players would get some extra cash. However, as observed by Jeff Jones of the Belleville News-Democrat, this overall proposal from the union actually counts as a concession to the owners, since it would somewhat lower the bar for future arbitration cases in general.
The MLBPA did not alter their previous demands for increases to the luxury tax (to $245MM for the initial threshold) and to the minimum salary (to $775K), according to The Score’s Travis Sawchik. Beyond the 80% Super Two demand and the $115MM bonus pool, it doesn’t appear as if the union made any other changes from its previous offers — and as for today’s new proposal, the league “was not excited,” Janes tweets. It isn’t known when the two sides will next meet in regards to the bigger-picture economic issues or when MLB might counter the players’ current offer, though Janes reports that the league and MLBPA are slated to meet tomorrow to talk about non-economic issues.
The_Voice_Of_REASON
Stand strong, owners. NO MORE GIVING IN!!!
parkdav
Oh I get it. You support reason. Thanks
Please, Hammer. Don't hurt 'em.
3 years arbitration is the current standard players agreed to. $0.00 pre-arb bonus pool is what every player has ever agreed to for over 150 years. Once again, the MLBPA is trying to take while somehow pretending they are compromising. Typical. Agreeing to what you agreed to before and asking for more of something else is not a compromise. It’s just asking for more while refusing to negotiate in good faith.
golga333
Do you not understand what bargaining is?
Please, Hammer. Don't hurt 'em.
Of course I do, golga. Does the MLBPA not realize that MLB is trying to bargain to? It’s give and take. Not pretend to give when you give nothing and then take. That’s not bargaining in good faith. Anyone can say whatever they want about the last CBA. That’s only an opinion. MLB has every right to bargain as much as the players do. That is a fact.
mike156
Have you checked out the implications of the new CBT penalties the owners propose? Why just blame the players union when the owners are also looking for more goodies.
Please, Hammer. Don't hurt 'em.
Any agreement the owners make with each other about how their finances will be distributed is just that: between the owners. If there are any individual players who don’t want to show up to work because of that, they don’t have to. Then they can have their guaranteed money cancelled for breech of contract.
Prospectnvstr
Hammer: Where is this bargaining that the owners are doing? All I see is the same control plus wanting to put the squeeze on the minor league rosters as well.
acell10
Stand strong, players…NO MORE GIVING IN!!!!!!
johnnymac09
You clearly don’t know baseball economics
Clampdown420-69
Stupid money vs ridiculous money….it’s not that complicated
mike156
Yeah, their first proposal was so reasonable with regard to to the new demands they made….the MLPBA should have been honored just to receive it…and insisted it be made worse for the players.
seanmc1983
lol
Superstar Prospect Wander Javier
I’m curious…
How excited are you when a team changes ownership?
How many owner cards did you collect as a kid?
How much is a signed ball with an owner’s signature is worth?
How many owner’s jerseys do you have hanging in your closet?
What’s your best baseball owner memory?
Did you want to grow up to be a Major League Baseball owner?
The only argument I’ve heard for these steadfast owner supporters are that the players are being greedy and that the average American doesn’t make a fraction what they do. It just seems so bizarre and spiteful to then support the owners, who are being far more greedy and make far more money.
For Love of the Game
Parsing degrees of greed isn’t a good look. There are no saints in these negotiations.
Superstar Prospect Wander Javier
Exactly, which is why it is weird to have a belligerent support of either side.
bkbk
THats intellectually lazy, one side wont reveal how much money is at stake but insists the other side “trust them.” Could you imagine a public company doing that?
There is a villain, youve been brainwashed.
stymeedone
While acknowledging that it has taken time and effort from the players to achieve what they have, you can’t call a major league player poorly compensated, anymore.
CubsWS2016
“Public company”? I think all except one are privately owned.
The_Voice_Of_REASON
-It depends on who the new ownership is compared to the previous.
-None, but might have if they made them. Never had much of a “player” card collection, either.
-Less, but I don’t place any monetary value on a ball with some ink splashed on it, only sentimental value. Would be great to have a ball signed by PETER ANGELOS. I have a signed Corey Patterson ball, which is great for sentimental reasons (he hit it as a foul ball in Oakland in 2006 and I was the 1 who got it and he signed it for me in Baltimore 4 years later before a game in 2010).
-Same number as “player” jerseys: zero. Would probably own a PETER ANGELOS jersey if they made one.
-When PETER ANGELOS made one of his huge donations to charity.
-Never thought about it at the time, since baseball is a kid’s game (the “men” of MLB play a kid’s game with a stick and a ball and mittens 7-8 months per year for a living), therefore I didn’t consider the financial side- but probably would have wanted to if asked.
tigerdoc616
Baseball is not a kids game. It was started as an adult game and continues to be an adult game, Kids only started playing when it became popular among adults. So in reality, the kids are playing an adult game and not the other way around.
acell10
so when you go to games (which you obviously don’t) do you just sit and stare into the owners box?
stymeedone
@acell10
I watch the players that were scouted by the owner, developed in the minors by the owner’s coaching staffs and who wouldn’t be there if the owners didn’t sign their paychecks, in the stadium that is being paid for by that same owner.
acell10
@stymeedone….and when was that? back in 1955? Most owners aren’t paying for their stadiums anymore so that shows how dated your reference is and I’d be shocked if any of the 30 owners personally scouted any of the players that have been drafted or signed by their teams in at least 50 years.
spudchukar
Kudos! As I always say, nobody goes to a Baseball game to watch the owners own, but to watch the players play!
iverbure
The amount of people who think players are more valuable to the mlb equation is staggering stupid. Every player could easily be replaced at the same time and the league would barely miss a step. It’s pretty hard to replace a owner. They’re aren’t a lot of billionaires around making peanuts off baseball when they can make trillions somewhere else.
The player have only the players to blame. They negotiated for most of these rules to begin with. And they aren’t getting everything back this time around so they better start settling soon.
acell10
actually what’s staggeringly stupid is this take if you think A) the players are that easily replaced, and B) that owners are making peanuts off their team.
Dunk Dunkington
Yes!!
Who wants to see the most elite athletes in their sport competing?
Give me Bob from accounting and his 75 Mph heater ASAP!!!!
daveineg
All I know is people showed up to watch replacement players in the NFL 35 years ago and that league hasn’t had a work stoppage since and people would show up to watch AAA players in major league uniforms in major league parks too. If the games are competitive, the fans will get into it regardless of who is playing.
The game makes the stars, Stars come and go.
bkbk
Do you know how insanely profitable these teams are? Have you ever seen a team “sit on the market” for more than instantly? You couldn’t be more wrong about the owners side.
Also, the only reason players have so little power is that the anti-trust makes it near impossible to start a new league with comparable talent. These owners basically have a free atm and still complain that they’d like more.
Tigers3232
@ Iverbure, if these players are so easily replaceable why have teams been so bad while rebuilding? If what you say is true rebuilding teams would face no dip in talent….
eddiemathews
lol…must be golden peanuts
Superstar Prospect Wander Javier
If Bob from accounting can throw 75, I’ll retire!
Dorothy_Mantooth
@bkbk – Take a look at the Atlanta Braves financials and explain to me how “insanely profitable” these teams are? They do bring in positive cash flow but from an accounting standpoint (P&L) most teams, including Atlanta, lose money from a financial statement standpoint. They are EBITDA profitable but not from a bottom line perspective. Most teams carry a ton of debt service, either from the original purchase of the team or from facility (stadium) costs, so the owners are not making much money at all once all costs are accounted for. In Atlanta, players salaries make up less than 33% of their total operating expenses, so if a team generates $500M in revenue and pays $150M in player salaries, there’s a good chance they’ll be close to break even on the year from a P&L standpoint.
stymeedone
If you want to see what baseball would be like without the owners, go to a stadium tomorrow. There will be no ticket takers, no concessions to parch your thirst, and no players on the field. Just like a game w/o team owners. Max Scherzer isn’t showing up if that owner isn’t signing his paycheck. Even Bob from accounting isn’t showing up regularly if no one pays him. Enjoy the empty field.
Yankee Clipper
Never….underestimate Bob from accounting.
SuperSloth
Sure thing Iverbure. I can recall DOZENS of times a MLB franchise went up for sale and sat vacant for years, just like that creepy house down the block where the former owners mysteriously vanished. Give me a break. Owners are just as replaceable. Any argument to the contrary is foolish or deceptive.
golga333
The Braves turned a profit in 2020 despite having zero ticket sales. Owners are making money hand over fist.
Prospectnvstr
Are the owners making the players more money or are the players making the owners more money? Give the players their share. Baseball is a multi billion dollar industry. Better yet, the owners should lower the ticket prices, concessions, the souvenirs so it’s more affordable to take your family to a game or 3.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
40 years of trickle down has created an army of bootlickers who love nothing more than to orally service the rich and powerful.
Daily.
vtbaseball
Comment of the century right there, fwjbt!
Tomahawk Takeover
For whom…which rich and powerful, the players or owners?
rememberthecoop
Now THIS might be the comment of the century. People on the players side tend to conveniently forget that they are multi-millionaores.
Zerbs63
I would have loved to grow up to be an owner. Then I would have signed myself and gotten at least one at bat and played an inning.
stevetampa
The owners should make more money. They bear the risk. What risk does the player bear? Why does it cost nearly $200 to take two kids to an MLB game? The economics are certainly screwed up. The owners and the players are taking the common fan to the cleaners.
slider32
The bigger risk for owners is not coming to an agreement in 2 weeks! They risk losing interest in the game which is still a big money maker. The players are the product, and the average career is 3.7 years. Most players never make it to free agency.. Last year 60 % of the players were on the minimum salary or close to it. Players salary have nothing to do with the price of a ticket!
Toms Changeup
I love it
insane trades
What you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
bcdroyals
People often fail to realize that you’d have to make MLB league minimum for 1,600 YEARS before becoming a billionaire.
48-team MLB
@bcdroyals
You don’t need to be a billionaire to survive. Three or four years of the league minimum even after taxes will make you a millionaire. That’s way more money than most people ever make.
Timothy Frith
Whatever, so mind your own business.
Cubneck
Personally I was extremely excited when the Cubs were finally sold by the Tribune. Lol. And I bet the Pirates and Reds fans would be overjoyed to get new owners.
And I actually did dream of owning an MLB team after I realized i wasn’t good enough to ever play on one. Reality is the closest I will ever come is owning a fantasy team. LMFAO
But I agree with the rest, and completely agree with the sentiment.
Albert Belle's corked bat
Well I am curious too. If you own and start a business, isn’t the goal to maximize profits while having little overhead? Does this make you greedy?
bkbk
Make sure you take some Tums after duck swallowing all the boot rubber.
Fred Park
Well, Voice of Reason, I think all the posturing will be over today and we will still have a full season. Not by much, but just barely will be good enough.
The news might come even before I can post this comment. So be it, then. Any time is fine with me.
kellin
Im surprised so many people support this mindset. Ya’ll really prefer supporting Rockefeller and Getty over your neighbors and friends, eh? This is what standing behind the owners looks like to most people..
realistnotsucker
You’re a clown lol you Pay to watch the owners I see
fljay73
Like I told my Rays season ticket sales agent…..
If the owners get any savings back from the players I expect to see some of that coming back to me.
If not I am siding with the players.
Redwolves3
Time for the owners to tell the players NO and get realistic. Enough is enough! It’s time to stop shooting for moon.
PiratesFan1981
Stay strong fans! Greed is killing the game!
Redwolves3
MLBPA only met for 15 minutes. You call that “good faith negotiating!” No matter what offer the owners make it will never be enough because MLBPA has already made up their minds. It’s everything they want or else. Stand strong owners.
acell10
again don’t forget to sign out of this account and back to the voice of reason one when you want to like or reply in agreement to this post….
adolf marsilio
BASEBALL IS YESTERDAY’S SPORT. The only thing that is keeping it going is TV
contacts and as the old guard fades viewership will drop significantly.
SO, , instead of wrestling for the best deal both parties should be focusing on improving the game and making it more interesting and enjoyable.
Like every thing else in modern day America it”s all about the present and dollars and cents. Too bad.
Yankee Clipper
Although I disagree that baseball is yesterday’s sport, I do think a season without baseball may very well cement that disposition.
adolf marsilio
Br none, virtually all my friends and relatives (they are all younger than I am)
prefer football, basketball and sometimes hockey to baseball. The game is just too slow for the younger generation.
bluejaymatt 2
Stand strong, players. NO MORE GIVING IN!!!
DarkSide830
does the union realize that having a completely new system start at $100 million plus is fairly unrealistic? Maybe that’s a goal down the line, but that’s a stark change all at once.
jmac70
100mil is only like 3.4mil per team
Yankee Clipper
Only 3.4M? That’s like…add the 1, carry the two… 60% of the Pirates payroll.
Please, Hammer. Don't hurt 'em.
It doesn’t matter that it’s 3.4 mill per team. What matters is that for every single team every single year for all of baseball history the combined total up until now has been $0.00. Any number is a win for the players. Get your foot in the door before you start making demands. Over a century and a half of precedent dictates that it doesn’t need to exist at all. We all know the players are going to ask for a raise of that number every single CBA from here forward. If they start it at $15 million now they will ask to raise it by $15 million every 5 years. If they start it at $100 million now, they will ask to raise it by $100 million every 5 years. It doesn’t matter how much the owners pay. The players will always say it’s not enough no matter what. Caving in this will only make the next CBA even more impossible. The players need precedent to prove that a pre-arb bonus pool should even exist at all before they start demanding that it needs to start at $100 million.
BlueSkies_LA
Foo. Have we not yet learned the difference between asks and gets? Some of us have.
Please, Hammer. Don't hurt 'em.
@BlueSky: That’s the problem. The higher the gets are now, the higher the asks will be next CBA. The more they get now the more increases they will ask for later. People will come out and say, “last CBA the pre-arb bonus pool increased by $100 million. Anything less than an increase of the same amount is owners trying to give something less than par for the course.” It’s going to make the next CBA drag out even longer and these work stoppages will be more common and last longer. You don’t go from $0.00 over 150 years to $100,000,000.00 overnight. That spells disaster for any future CBA. You really shouldn’t even go from zero over 150 years to $15,000,000.00 overnight. I can’t believe the owners are even offering that. It’s very stupid on their part because that number is only going to be expected to increase by the same order of magnitude every single CBA after. Even if you side with the players you have to admit that is exactly what they will do if they get what they want. They would be stupid not to. The only way to stop it is from the source and not let them get what they want right now.
BlueSkies_LA
Foo, again. Every CBA negotiation proceeds from the last one. You really haven’t made any point at all except that ownership having achieved highly favorable terms for themselves in the last CBA should never give up anything even if it means not playing baseball. It doesn’t take siding with anyone to know that this is the root cause of the current impasse, and not a reason for players to expect to get nothing that favors their situation out these negotiations. That of course is totally unrealistic even if you thought it was fair.
Yankee Clipper
BlueSkies is right on. Moreover, even under the current negotiations, the perception is that ownership is taking their position to their extreme and staying, while MLBPA has made some relatively reasonable requests.
I think most people see the owners have simply drawn a line to let the PA know, “we aren’t budging and you’re not getting anything of substance back.”
mizdfw
$4 million per team per year? The Rangers spent twice that on Jordan Freaking Lyles last year. I think they can handle it.
Yankee Clipper
Yes I think they understand that’s obvious. I also think it’s a natural counter to the outrageous CBT proposal from MLB and they may be able to negotiate both in a direct relationship.
seanmc1983
Do you realize the owners are only proposing $15MM? The players would most likely be happy with 100, but the owners haven’t come anywhere close to that number this far.
48-team MLB
Honestly the players would probably accept a $50 million bonus pool but MLB hasn’t offered anything more than $15 million.
Pads Fans
Honestly the players won’t accept a $50 million pool. If you didn’t notice, they have now asked for more money in that pool.
kingken67
And let’s put that into proper context. That $15M the owners offered works out to $500K per team. That’s less than the MLB minimum salary for one player. The MLBPA would increase overall pay more if they simply pushed for expanding the active roster by 1 even if every team simply added one more rookie for that spot.
Yankee Clipper
Yes, and again, although the players are ostensibly greedy and stubborn, one cannot say the owners are negotiating in good faith with what they bring to the table, imho. Objectively, the MLB’s offer is perceived as disingenuous –
balloonknots
How would that work anyway. Cause Super 2 can be on any team – will that the payroll salary cap on each team but paid out revenue sharing? It’s confusing. Likely the owners go in opposite direction too now down 5mm for bonus pool lol
rememberthecoop
What a dumb take.
Pads Fans
Do you realize that you have no clue what you are talking about? Its $3.3 million per team. Less than the cost of a free agent middle reliever.
48-team MLB
@Pads Fans
There is currently ZERO bonus pool. $50 million is far greater than nothing.
48-team MLB
@Pads Fans
Offering anything at all is not a joke because it’s more than they’ve offered before. A pre-arb bonus pool would be a completely new thing to MLB. You only view it as a joke because it’s a lot lower than what the MLBPA asked for, which was a very high amount for something that would be completely new. This isn’t about $15 million in comparison to $105 million. It’s about $15 million in comparison to ZERO.
Informed Sportsball Discussion
Yeah, as much as I don’t like how the owners have conducted the lockout (acted like it was spurring negotiations then didn’t actually negotiate for a month and a half), that’s a huge ask and I can’t blame the owners for balking at it.
I could see $25 million or even as high as $60 million (which makes for $2 million a team).
If we’re talking in three figures of millions, if I am the owners I am not budging an inch on any other ask. Asking for the $100+ million bonus pool AND standing firm on the luxury tax AND standing firm on the minimum salary looks like one too many big asks from the players.
Start moving off their ceilings on all three, find an acceptable middle number, then call it a win they got the bonus pool, which on its own is a win regardless of dollar amount. It did not exist at all before.
slider32
That;s only 3 million a team, and 160 of the teams players benefit. The problem is that is the cost of six players for the Marlins and Rays!
Ham Fighter
So it basically went
Owners so would you like to discuss…
MLBPA Fu** off
End of meeting
OneLoneGone
More like…
MLBPA- About those last 2 proposals we made…uh never-mind…we’d like to backtrack and up the anti a bit.
Owners- GTFO
End of meeting
acell10
seems like you got it backwards…MLBPA made proposal and the league said to F off…
phantomofdb
Their offer was ridiculous, and was not serious, they INCREASED their ask since the last time. The players absolutely said “F off” to negotiating.
CNichols
It’s an “increase” in the bonus pool, but one that actually reduces future salaries for those players. The original offer was $100M to 30 players, which is ~$3.3M per player and the new offer is $115M to 150 players which is $766K per player.
So when these pre-arb players hit arbitration, instead of starting with salaries of like $4M as a baseline that will continue to grow over their Arb years, they would hypothetically start with a baseline of like $1.3M.
I don’t think it’s really much of a concession, but they’re basically agreeing to reduce salaries of elite players by a few million a year through the new structure that they proposed.
ohyeadam
I imagined these payments would come as bonuses and the arbitration would still have the minimum as it’s base. Very possible I missed it somewhere in all these articles
rotator cuff
15 minutes! And that’s including the 8 minutes of showing funny cat videos before starting negotiations.
ctyank7
See you in 2023z
30 Parks
Fifteen minutes.
SaoMagnifico
Spring training should have started by now and still neither side seems interested in making serious offers.
Rsox
Those 15 minute work days are killer…
MannyPineappleExpress9
But we have to consider travel time (and stress), checking in at the hotel, ordering room service (and possibly a female companion or 2), deciding which socks to wear, the long trip back down to hail a taxi (or, more likely, determine which limo service is theirs), and all the hand shakes and niceties to fellow and opposing negotiators.
Then after the 15 minutes they gotta do all that stuff again, but in reverse order which can be super confusing.
If that’s not a full day’s work I don’t know what is.
SaoMagnifico
Remember, these are people arguing that the billions of dollars they make from hiring a team of accountants and attorneys to manage their investments, and the tens of millions of dollars they make from spending half the year playing a children’s game, are somehow not enough and proof they are somehow being gouged.
They are all so, so spoiled.
Yankee Clipper
Incredibly, they actually pay attorneys big money for this…
And owners pay them more to triple-down on their double-down. “I’ll pay $400M to our attorney just so we don’t have to pay $100M in that stupid player fund!”
slider32
Both sides, if they are worth their salt, now their perimeters at this point. They know their bottom line. The question is when they both get to something they can agree on.
HEHEHATE
It’s never going to end
The_Voice_Of_REASON
Good.
vtbaseball
@“Reason” – GTFOOH
Why comment on a baseball site if you couldn’t care less about them not playing a season?
ctyank7
It doesn’t yet appear that either side is interested in compromise.
I guess they’re willing to accept the crushing damage of a long lockout — maybe even the loss of an entire year.
Yankee Clipper
CT: I really think that may be the best-case scenario here. Maybe, just maybe, a year without it will remind owners and players of their most important stakeholders.
bcdroyals
Billionaires aren’t going to care much, to be honest. Owning these teams is the same as us owning a fantasy football team.
Mayors and City Counsels are the ones who should be up in arms about it. Taxpayer funded stadiums are going to be without use and that tax money isn’t going to be flowing into the city.
Honestly, it’s way past time cities themselves own the teams.
Cincyfan85
From 22 to 80 percent… why does the MLBPA expect such massive leaps on everything? The players seem to want way too much on this CBA.
SaoMagnifico
I’m frustrated that the players seem to think they have so much leverage that they can make huge demands. And I’m frustrated that the owners seem to think they have so much leverage that they can lock the players out and basically refuse to negotiate beyond proposing fairly minor tweaks to the current CBA. They’re waiting for the other side to blink rather than trying to get to yes. And we’re so late into this offseason now that it’s really very discouraging to see that. Both sides are clearly willing to have two of the last three years feature shortened seasons if they even play at all. I think that’s a colossal and potentially very costly misread of the national mood right now.
FrankRoo
A lockout is a relatively short duration of revenue loss for the league and owners. For the players it’s a large chunk of their salaries, some on their last one year deal could lose out on a ton of their remaining career salaries.the CBA lasts years so if the league can lose some money now and hold out for a better deal for several years it’s worth it. For the players, the ones grinding everyday, not the MLBPA leadership, even a short lockout could really hurt their careers.
If I was a player with 0.25 service time grinding for that 25-26th man spot in spring training I would be livid with my union for such huge leaps from previous CBA. It could cost me an entire year of service time, arbitration dollars, etc. The PA demands like much higher tax thresholds only benefit free agents and top young players who are viable extension candidates. Those demands need to be brought down a ton so the min salary ask can be met halfway. That will actually benefit young players. Judging them on WAR for bonus money doesn’t seem like a workable system. Oh you had 0.38 WAR, just outside the top 150, sorry buddy. Shouldn’t have let yourself get called off by the CF and you’d maybe have just enough dWAR to make it.
Pads Fans
Players are absolutely, positively ecstatic with the MLBPA leadership. Maybe you should follow a few players on Twitter and Instagram instead of trolling here on your brand new account. Then you would see how they feel.
ohyeadam
WAR is a nice stat for quick and easy research. Using it to determine compensation is a reach, didn’t players outright reject a WAR system from the owners early on?
oldmanblue
@pads yeah the ones that are making all the money right smh
enricopallazzo
If you are using Twitter or social media to judge support of any topic you are aren’t getting anything close to an accurate picture. Listening to a vocal minority(pick a topic or issue, the loudest are often in the minority) and realize many will stay quiet for many reasons, any players that don’t agree with the Union aren’t going to speak up about it for us to see, only behind closed doors or not at this point anyway.
outinleftfield
Players don’t lose a penny until the regular season starts. The owners started losing the day they are unable to open their spring training facilities and welcome fans in. They start losing much more on the day the first games were supposed to be televised. They start losing millions per day each the day that regular season games are lost.
Yankee Clipper
I think it’s just a reaction to ownership’s bloated proposal. They simply responded in kind. They’re both digging in their heels. More nothingness to come….
forstyle
They came off an extra year of arbitration, so 80% was a a step down of roughly 42% from 22% down on the “Super One” and 20% down from 100% of the 2nd year.
If MLB comes up 42% it would be 64% and 80%. Not saying that is what is going to happen. Most likely ends up in the 30% to 40% range.
thornt25
I’ve been a little perplexed by the MLBPA’s big asks also. I know the players want a lot of changes, but CBAs aren’t renegotiated from scratch. There’s a lot of precedent and inertia. Without player leverage, the owners are reasonable in saying CBA = old CBA + some inflation + expanded playoffs + concessions to players to offset playoffs.
My theory is that the union leadership has been hearing their players complain about the last CBA for years and their leadership roles are being called into question. So they’re playing hardball, making big asks upfront. Unfortunately for them, the only leverage they really have is striking midseason. For that to be effective, you need a lot of solidarity via outraged players. What’s the outrage this time around? The existing CBA that they agreed to (aka Buyers’ Remorse). If the union imposes a strike in August, how many players will support it?
jb226
There’s a saying in negotiations: The first person to say a number loses. In this case, since both sides are saying numbers that aren’t going to happen, the corollary would be “the first person who says a reasonable number loses.”
It’s much more instructive to look at the middle point. The midpoint of 24 (current system) and 80 is basically 50% (52%, but close enough). Factor in a little wiggle room if you don’t really have that kind of leverage, or you want to be perceived as the side giving to make the deal happen, or you just want to exchange it for something else and the union would likely be ecstatic in the 40s.
Same with many of the other issues. The middle point of $15MM bonus pools and $115 bonus pools is $65MM — a number that could probably settle closer to $50MM with buy-in from the union.
The problem is like the problem with much of society: Everybody wants the best deal FOR THEM and not a reasonable deal for both parties. While both sides would probably be okay landing in those midpoints, they’re each going to make the other claw for every point because gosh if you gave 45% and they would have settled for 42% would your face be red!
48-team MLB
Agreed. Why does it have to jump 58 percent? A jump from 22 percent to somewhere in the 40-50 percent range would still be a huge jump.
outinleftfield
I not a massive leap. Its $ 3 million per team. A tiny increase. For the first 36 years, arbitration started at 2 years of service time. Going to 3 years was a massive leap. MLB said they would not go back, so the players proposed another way to get younger players paid sooner.
Nobaseball20
MSL is the America’s Sport….GUESS DAvid Ortiz the last HOF member unless the lockout
Prevents the actual induction.
Yankee Clipper
What the hell is MSL?
Nobaseball20
Major League Soccer…..
Gotta fill the local tv with something….
Oh, will the minor leaguers play?
Yankee Clipper
Wouldn’t that be MLS?
Nobaseball20
Yes, mis-typed.
Minor Leagues still playing?
Pete'sView
MLS is the Real Estate Multiple Listing service, easier to watch.
Yankee Clipper
Okay, it’s cool, I mistype all the time. Yep, minor leagues are playing and you can pay $9.99 and watch just about every game on MiLB.TV for the season. Probably what I will do.
bazbal
I would rather watch paint dry than watch soccer, major league or otherwise..
Pete'sView
Thanks, didn’t know that.
Yankee Clipper
Pete, man, you crack me up sometimes…lol.
Yankee Clipper
Pete, I think I may have misunderstood your reply, if that was meant for me. I read it as if it was a reply to bazbal’s comment, in which case, I thought it was funny. But in reading it again, I noticed it may be responding to my post about MiLBTV.
If so, I posted another. Baseball America link to 30 Parks which details all the different platforms in which one can stream D1 collegiate baseball too, if you’re interested.
Pete'sView
Yankee Clipper —yes, thanks, my reply was to you. I get MLB.TV but didn’t know there was a corresponding one for MiLB.
The way things are going with the two warring factions, I might very well sign up for that service. Thanks again.
outinleftfield
On MiLB.tv you will get about 30% of AAA games and about half that of A, A+, and AA games. Still well worth the few dollars per month.
Yankee Clipper
Yes, sorry, I wrote “every game” and I meant just about “every team” in the minors. The only Yankees minor league team that’s not there is the Tampa Tarpons. Thanks for the clarification on that, OutinLeftField.
48-team MLB
Start with one MLB representative and one MLBPA representative. One starts in Japan (doesn’t matter which one) and the other starts in Hawaii. They will race to the South Pole with nothing but their own strength…walking, running, swimming, etc. Bicycles, canoes and kayaks are allowed because they aren’t motorized. They require your own strength to travel. The first to arrive and plant a flag (with either “MLB” or “MLBPA”) at the South Pole will get their proposal signed for the new CBA.
The_Voice_Of_REASON
I like that a lot, but the “players” would definitely try to cheat somehow.
SuperSloth
Voice, I hope I never become a bitter old man like you appear to be.
acell10
it’s a shame gifs or meme’s can’t be posted because he is the definition of an old man yelling at a cloud
acell10
in reality he’s probably either a bot or just some chuckle head who’s trying to stir up nonsense.
kellin
He’s not a bot. While he may post rambling nonsense, its more coherent than a bot.
acell10
barely more coherent…
thornt25
In exchange for dropping their unreasonable demand, the MLBPA is increasing their other unreasonable demand. This is a few days after the owners tried a dramatic increase to cap penalties. Sliding backwards.
SaoMagnifico
It’s bad-faith negotiating all the way around. The players were insulted by MLB’s latest nonstarter of an offer, so they called a meeting today to present their own insulting nonstarter “offer”. Neither side is putting anything on the table around the core issues — the CBT and rookie contracts — that they think the other side is seriously going to be open to, and they’re not willing to concede on one in exchange for the other.
outinleftfield
How much is Manfred paying you, because no informed person could possibly believe what you have posted on this thread.
30 Parks
From my eastern Canadian geography, where can I stream NCAA baseball? Any insight is appreciated.
Yankee Clipper
That’s tough because it depends on your subscriptions. I know there are many colleges that offer free live streaming too; but ESPN (2 & U) channels run some collegiate games too.
Here’s a BA link with all different types of streaming for college baseball 2022.
baseballamerica.com/stories/2022-streaming-guide-t…
30 Parks
… appreciated, Clipper.
48-team MLB
You can create a new six-team Canadian League.
Calgary Coyotes
Halifax Demon Ducks
Nunavut Ninjas
Quebec City Snowy Owls
Saskatoon Serpents
Winnipeg Weasels
hoof hearted
No one wins in a 2 man P’ing contest. Where , let see who can P on the other the most.
Big glove502
someone needs to turn this into a hostage situation with both sides held in a room until a deal gets done. when negotiating with an eternal partner, you give a list of topics, narrow the topics, and through time make incremental progress towards the happiest possible outcome.
Old York
Stand strong, Fans! No more giving in!
Plenty of other options out there. You don’t need to pay top dollar to watch 3-true outcome players that might hit a homerun every once in a while or a top pitcher go 4 or 5 innings, striking out 6 or 8 players.
The_Voice_Of_REASON
True.
acell10
yet here you are commenting on a baseball site…
Old York
What’s wrong with commenting on a baseball site? MLB is destroying their market with these ridiculous lockouts. I’m a concerned fan about the health of the game. Here are sports that have more fans than baseball.
1. Soccer / Association Football 3.5 Billion Europe, Africa, Asia, America
2. Cricket 2.5 Billion Asia, Australia, UK
3. Basketball 2.2 Billion US, Canada, China, and the Philippines
4. Field Hockey 2 Billion Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia
5. Tennis 1 Billion
6. Volleyball 900 Million
7. Table Tennis 850 Million
8. Baseball 500 Million
Think about that, table tennis and volleyball have more fans than baseball. Do you think baseball will have more fans by the time all of this is over?
acell10
Nothing is wrong but you are exerting a lot of energy to tell people not to bother following the sport anymore so why do you bother following it then and if you are such a concerned fan I don’t think you’d be telling people to seek other forms of entertainment and enjoyment.
Old York
First, I’m not sure of all the energy you’re speaking of that I’m using to tell people to stop watching. I’ve never suggested so. Even if I, as a random internet user, had power to do so, how many people would actually listen to me?
Anyway…
MLB & the PA are doing nothing. Why would you sit there waiting for them to do something? They clearly have no interest in the fans at this point, which are actually the customers. Sure, all those die-hard fans are going to return and buy all the Merch, but as a customer, do you feel you’re being treated with the best service and value?
acell10
at least you’ve acknowledged that no one would listen but you said plenty of other options are there which is encouraging people to look elsewhere. not really sure how else you can try to spin that but by all means give it a try.
Old York
I am a fan of baseball in general. Sitting there and waiting for them to agree doesn’t make sense. I like baseball and will watch what is available. Plenty of leagues out there if MLB isn’t started. Might I suggest checking out the independent league American Association? Or what about the Liberation League?
Old York
Are you providing me a couple of billion dollars to invest or would that only be in paper trading?
bazbal
It appears that you are missing out on a really lucrative investment opportunity. You should offer a couple billion dollars to whatever organization regulates table tennis for their exclusive broadcasting rights, and then televise those matches to cash-in on those fanatic 850 million table tennis fans.
acell10
point is going way over your head…
Old York
Okay, then it will go over forever. Keep that up instead of engaging in a dialogue…
acell10
I have been engaging in dialogue you just keep missing the point.. You’re telling people to go elsewhere then bring up a bunch of sports that have “more fans” than baseball that could never be monitored to the level of baseball even if you had a billion dollars.
PKCasimir
It’s obvious you don’t understand modern economics. The number of fans is totally irrelevant. What matters for a professional sport is how much revenue it generates. Only the NFL generates more revenue than MLB.. That’s of all the professional sports leagues in the world to include the Premier League..
HubertHumphrey
I think volleyball would really catch on, if the girls wore more revealing outfits. Those tall, athletic-build ladies are sexy.
Old York
You’re confusing two different points. I said you don’t need to pay top dollar to watch baseball. Then you made a post about me posting on a baseball forum. I pointed out that baseball has less fans than a lot of sports out there. Without fans, do you think Fox and ESPN will prop up MLB?
Old York
@PKCasimir
Without a growing fan base, do you think the billions will stay with MLB?
Old York
@HubertHumphrey
What about Beach volleyball?
outinleftfield
Yes. Yes you do.
Thornton Mellon
15 minutes? Hope it was a good cup of coffee.
At least by the time they get the season started, the risk of snow outs is gone.
spidertac
Bye baseball.
kellin
Dont let the door hit your ass on the way out!
BirdieMan
Plenty of money for both sides yet both sides continually strive to screw it up. I hope they shut down the whole season, and both sides starve.
For Love of the Game
Occam’s Razor – use the solution that makes the fewest assumptions.
Arbitration after 2.5 years. Free agency after 5.5 years. Hard cutoffs. If you come up for a cup of coffee, you might be more than 3 and 6 years. But if the team wants your services for most of the season, you’re closer to getting paid a market salary.
Why work so hard to negotiate a bonus pool, who pays, who is eligible, which version of WAR to use? 2.5/5.5. Done. Next item on the agenda.
The_Voice_Of_REASON
More like Occam’s MLBPeeA Is Ruining MLB And Needs To Be Dissolved In The Harshest Possible Way.
YankeesBleacherCreature
Why do you choose to type like an 8 y.o. with the logic of 6?
kenphelps44
So he can understand what he is saying. BTW, you can tell when someone really gets under his skin because he starts posting in caps.
Pete'sView
For Love of Game — I throw my vote to your suggestion (very close to what I had in mind).
bluesteele
Stand strong Owners. Players have it pretty damn good. We will all be ok without baseball for a bit. Make a fair deal or wait it out.
gbs42
Owners have it really damn good, and they’re pushing for more.
acell10
don’t forget to switch back to your voice of reason account when you need a like or to agree with yourself later….
88
Pathetic.. It would seem very easy to meet somewhere in the middle on all issues, or both sides to “win” an issue or two. with the rest of them reverting to the prior contract, and call it a day, Players reporting in not more than 3 days. Of course no one is willing to make that type of proposal. Too many lawyers trying to justify their egregious billing rates.
Loud Noises!
I read that the owners can lift the lockout at anytime have the players play under the existing CBA and be required to have ongoing meetings. My question then is if they did that could the players just refuse to play?
Yankee Clipper
Well, it’s not so much a refusal to play as it would be that the players would likely not agree to a holdover (extension) on the existing CBA. It would ultimately result in a strike by the players, which is why the owners trumped them by locking them out and avoiding some ugly scab-like situations.
gbs42
Noises, if the owners lifted the lockout, the players could either show up and play under the previous CBA but without a luxury tax or they could strike.
Pete'sView
The “existing CBA” is no longer existing. The players will not play without a new CBA. The owners fear a strike close to the playoffs. Both buttheads will tear down the golden goose.
Sorry for the mixed metaphor.
Yankee Clipper
Yes, Pete, good point. Poor choice of words on my part. I should’ve written “expired CBA” and that they need to agree to a temporary one with the same language, which they won’t…
Patrick OKennedy
The players could strike if the lockout was lifted, but they wouldn’t do that right away. IF they were to strike, that would come in August before the playoffs when they have maximum leverage.
Some feel strongly in both ways that they would or would not strike. They would have a CBA with
– no luxury tax at all
– no DH in the NL
– no expanded playoffs
– no advertising patches on uniforms
– no increase in minimum salary
– no international draft
– no bonus pool
– no draft lottery
But there would be baseball
And they’d have to actually negotiate on these issues and start trading them off
outinleftfield
The players have already said that they will not under any circumstances play under the expired CBA. If the lockout were somehow lifted, and I am pretty sure under current labor laws it cannot be without a new CBA being agreed to, the players would strike immediately when the regular season starts.
brave heart
Neither side interested in a deal right now. Owners barely budging. Reason I suggest this? 1) Players mistake was bringing too many heavy hitting items to this CBA and 2) now they’ve set anchors to high. They’re using phsyc numbers in their proposals which suggests they’re just asking for as much as possible rather than trying to justify it. Amateur negotiating by union reps. Owners are seeing right through this. That’s why they’re not moving yet.
JAMES JACOBSEN
This just needs to be finished, Lock them in a room and don’t them them out until the paper is signed.
Astros2017&22Champs
As much as I side with players on this thing there needs to be a salary max or sports is going to be extinct. The players want more money but its the average to good guys that are the ones that have an argument. Juan Soto turning down a 13 year 350 million contract is disturbing. American citizens can barely make ends meat and pay for their mortgage but the top 10 percent of players in all leagues are making undeserving generational wealth. James Harden quitting on two organizations while making 50 million a year is crippling the sport. “You dont have to watch!” NBA stadiums are half filled everynight. Watch a yankees game vs the royals in april. Nobody in the stands. Mix in Covid 19. Baby boomers are reaching the end of the line. Millennials children dont care about sports. Greed is going to destroy mlb just like the nba.
astros2017
Last thing we want is individual max contracts. Then you end up like the NBA where money doesn’t matter to top FA, they get what they get so they choose to team up with their friends wherever on a super team
A team cap would be great but that’s never gonna happen
Timothy Frith
Yes, it will. Don’t worry. Both sides will get the deal done before the lockout cancels spring training, the entire 2022 season, the playoffs and the 2022 World Series.
Yankee Clipper
A team cap is only great until it happens. The you will wonder why the sport isn’t as good anymore.
outinleftfield
The only way to have a hard cap is to have all teams making the same amount of revenue. In MLB you have teams like the Yankees and Dodgers well over $600 million per season and a few teams like the Marlins and A’s at about $250 million. To have a hard cap work the teams with higher than average revenue would have to be willing to give up everything they make over the league average in order for those low revenue teams to have the same level of revenue. Are you going to talk Steinbrenner into that one?
Catuli Carl
“A bargaining session between Major League Baseball and the players’ union lasted just 15 minutes Thursday and produced little progress toward a new collective bargaining agreement, sources familiar with the situation told ESPN.”
Unbelievable. Stop trying to tell me this is all the owners fault.
tigerdoc616
It is all the owners fault.
The players accepted the last deal and it turned out worse for them than previous deals. They are only trying to get back what they lost (and maybe a little more). Owners are hell bent on not only not giving anything back but getting the players to accept even less
The owners are the ones who locked the players out and then waited 43 days to put forth an offer. They are the ones who have tried to string this out and threaten the season. They are the ones trying to punish the players by threatening game checks that come with a delayed regular season.
The only way this is in any way, shape, or form the players fault is because they have not capitulated to the owners demand
Stop trying to divert blame from the owners. They are the ones who are at fault here.
Yankee Clipper
Yes, and although I’m not specifically blaming the owners, because I think there’s a bit more complicity on both sides, let’s not forget that the owners make huge bank by exponential figures due to the growth of MLB on a variety of venues. The players are asking the owners, imo, for fairly reasonable things (mostly), and the owners are acting as if they’re in the middle of a Covid pandemic season with no income stream. I also think that’s why it’s so easy for so many to see through what the owners are trying to mask, and frankly, it’s not a good look for them.
Pads Fans
The players union just made concessions that will mean over $1 billion going into the owners pocket over the next 5 seasons.
Tell me what exactly the owners have proposed that will even the percentage of revenue going to players or increase the percentage going to younger players? Can you name even one thing?
outinleftfield
They aren’t going to answer you because then they would have to admit they were wrong.
Orioles Fan
Both the Union and the owners are destroying the game of baseball
Yankee Clipper
And neither side cares one iota for the fans or the game.
kenphelps44
If the owners are really dealing in good faith then they should have no problem doing what they have always refused to do, open their books.
48-team MLB
I’m picturing it now. Manfred standing in front of the class (owners) ready to begin today’s lecture. “Please open your books to page __”
nukeg
Locate foot. Aim. Fire.
BlueSkies_LA
Reload.
Pads Fans
Its amazing how few people on here actually understand what is going on.
The players made a huge concession. They said ok, we are no longer asking for all players to be eligible for arbitration after 2 years like it was until the last two CBAs. Instead of 60+% of all players in MLB being eligible for arbitration in 2 years, only a percentage of them will be.
That is a $260-300 million savings per season for MLB owners depending on how many players enter the league in a given year. Like I said, huge concession.
In exchange the union is asking for the approximately 150 players that would not be eligible for arbitration in any given year to instead get a percentage of a $115 million pool that would be distributed based on production with the best players getting the most money.
In addition to immediately putting $100+ million in the owners pockets each season, it also lowers the arbitration salary base for the 150 players per season that won’t qualify for Super Two status under this proposal. That is worth hundreds of millions to the owners over 3 years of arbitration. Estimates are between $450-750 million total that the owners would save over 3 years of arbitration or $3-5 million per player.
If you don’t see how that is a major concession by the MLBPA then you probably should not be discussing this situation.
phantomofdb
It’s not saving the owners anything if you are comparing it to the CBA from 3 CBAs ago, it’s adding $115 million to the pot. The owners definitely need to come up some, but you are arguing from a very jaded perspective if you think it’s “saving” the owners anything because of a system that was in place when contracts were pennies on the dollar to what they are now. It’s “saving” the owners some based on the last proposal, sure, but the last proposal was wholly unrealistic.
Pads Fans
Are you serious? 3 CBAs ago players reached arbitration after 2 years!! You are one of the people that have so little understanding of what is going on that you should not even be commenting.
phantomofdb
I just responded to that exact point… What was the average arbitration contract 3 CBAs ago versus what it would be now? Maybe you shouldn’t be commenting because you have zero reading comprehension. The 2 years arbitration 3 CBAs ago is specifically what I was talking about, and you responded like I didn’t know that. You are saying that the owners are being “Saved” hundreds of millions of dollars because of a format that was in place when contracts were miniscule compared to what they are now. You can’t compare one piece of an old CBA to a totally different format, which is what you are trying to do. You are making a blatant (intentional) false equivalency
SaoMagnifico
Right, and the players conceded this *years* ago (as a tradeoff to get things they wanted at the time). So acting like making 80% of players at 2+ years of service time arb-eligible (a huge increase from 22%) plus creating a $115M pool for bonuses to be automatically distributed to 150 players based on an arcane mathematical formula is somehow a concession MLBPA is making is really pretty disingenuous.
48-team MLB
@Pads Fans
These numbers are COMPLETELY RANDOM so don’t act like I got them from somewhere…but I’m not sure whether or not you’re aware that 25 percent of $12 billion is actually more than 50 percent of $3 billion. You clearly do not understand simple concepts like this.
outinleftfield
You really don’t understand how negotiations work do you phantom? I like your brand new account. Did you start it just to parrot the owners position? Do they pay you well? How do I get paid to post like you are?
outinleftfield
Sao, another brand new account. They just keep popping up and ALL of them parrot the owners talking points.
outinleftfield
I am just curious, but what does your post even mean 48 team? The current revenue in baseball is $12 billion. Why would you even mention $3 billion?
48-team MLB
@outinleftfield…
The point is that Pads Fans is not taking into account that players still make more these days becoming arbitration eligible after three years than they made in the past becoming arbitration eligible after two years. Players are also making far more in free agency than they used to even factoring in inflation.
Deleted Userr
Why use your burner account to “agree” with all of your comments?
66TheNumberOfTheBest
I see people who keep expecting there to be movement during these sessions. Why?
The owners (based on recent history) think the players will cave at the last minute. Why would they make a real offer if the players are going to just cave?
The players know that the ONLY way to make clear to the owners that are serious this time is to inflict actual damage to the game. They can’t do that until real games are lost. Until real games are lost, neither the players or their offers will be taken seriously by the owners.
There is no trigger to real, earnest negotiation for either side until real games are lost.
Pads Fans
History shows us that its the owners who cave as soon as regular season games are lost.
The owners start losing income on February 26th, the first day televised spring training games were scheduled. They will start losing big money on what was supposed to be opening day.
BlueSkies_LA
For a bit of clarity and perspective, try comparing baseball to another entertainment industry, say, filmmaking. The studios own the venues for producing and distributing films, and they front the money, but they also know the customers show up to see the talent, not the producers. This is why the film industry seldom has labor issues and when it does they get settled quickly. MLB has seemingly never figured this out, not in decades, which is why baseball qualifies as probably the worst-managed entertainment industry of all time. It will be that way for as long as ownership treats the talent as simply an expense on the balance sheets.
BaseballClassic1985
I would give the players a lot more of what they want as an owner if they agreed to an NFL-type of system where not all money is guaranteed.
If a player is injured all the time or not producing as expected for the money, teams should be able to cut bait and be on the hook for only a percentage of the contract.
The players want to have their cake and eat it, too. As a Yankee fan, I’d really enjoy seeing them be able to cut Zack Britton for a percentage of his contract of $14 million when he’ll be doing nothing but rehabbing his elbow. It would free up payroll for them to acquire a player that will actually help the team this season (if there is one)
thornt25
The prior CBA’s numbers here were 22% and $0. Changing 2 year arb eligibility from 100%->80% while increasing the bonus pool from $105M to $115M isn’t a concession. It just shifts the numbers around. Dropping unreasonable demands to offset these new payoffs and calling it a concession won’t get them anywhere. They’ll probably have to accept a lower CBT with firmer penalties to offset this ask.
phantomofdb
The players aren’t actually trying to make concessions, they’re trying to totally reinvent the pay scale
thornt25
Totally agree. That’s why there’s an impasse. There’s no way the owners will allow that to happen. The players’ only real threat is a strike, and I can’t imagine that will be all that popular even with the players. Not only would they miss out on getting paid while they can, but they don’t even have a great rallying cry. “The last CBA sucked and this one is only a little better!”.
Pads Fans
If you don’t think its popular with the players, you are simply not paying attention. Why do you comment about something you don’t understand?
Pads Fans
The players were trying to go back to the way it was before this last CBA. Arbitration after 2 years was in place since 1974. If you are going to comment, at least have a small amount of understanding of the history of the CBA in MLB.
phantomofdb
Again, arbitration is just one piece of the puzzle. Free agent contracts are exponentially higher, and so are arbitration contracts. Are the arbitration contracts after 2 years going to be scaled back or are they going to be as high as they have been under the 3 year program? Because you’re blatantly ignoring that contract prices are way,way, way, higher than they were back then.
thornt25
Of course the MLBPA’s offer is popular with players. Doubling all the $ numbers would be even more popular. The question is about leverage. Their willingness to play under the existing CBA then strike later to force massive changes vs. accept something that is like the last CBA but moderately better. The players most willing to express their opinions on twitter don’t represent the median player. It’s a skewed sample.
100% arbitration after 2 years hasn’t been around since 1985 (only 22% now). Why do you think that CBA is more relevant as precedent than the most recent CBA?
thornt25
I’m sure ownership would be happy to go back to the 1985 era CBAs with all the same $ figures.
outinleftfield
Another new account. Another account that parrots the owners positions on all of this. Interesting. I think we are seeing a pattern here.
outinleftfield
In 1985 players made 50% of total revenue. I am quite sure the owners today would hate that.
Yankee Clipper
I don’t think players collectively even make 30% of total revenue. In fact, I’d put it between 15-20% max. Owners’ profits increased exponentially while the players agreed to some bad language (their own fault) in the past couple contract negotiations. Their attempt now to reverse some bad agreement provisions is being thwarted completely by the ownership group, not because of profits, but in spite of it. The owners have a death grip on each one of their 12 billion dollars and are planning on fighting to the death for it.
Owners don’t care about parity, competitiveness (outside of making playoff profits), dynasties, or fandom. They certainly don’t care about families. They are a 21st Century business – they care only about making and retaining profits at all other costs.
Pads Fans
Arbitration was 2 years for the first 8 CBA’s that included it. Not asking for 100% of players to be eligible for arbitration after 2 years is a huge concession.
See my post above for the numbers.
Dunk Dunkington
yep!
The $115 Million they are asking for is due to many more players will be added to the pool for dropping that demand. Now there is more room to actually negotiate and find common ground between both sides.
Jimbob 57
I think you right about this and I also think just because the meeting only lasted 15 min. Means much because players gave owners a lot to think about
SaoMagnifico
I think that’s a pretty big misread of what happened today, but OK.
HubertHumphrey
I’d sure like to see the antitrust exemption removed. Players can make their own league.
rememberthecoop
And the first time they had to pay a player for an injury-riddled season would be the.last time. MLB players get guaranteed contracts while owners take all the risk. Avg salaries have gone up far more than the teams revenues have.
outinleftfield
What risk exactly? The owners have national and local TV contracts that literally pay 100% of their bills.. Taxpayers paid for the stadiums. Not a single team pays what would be consider market rates on a lease of a stadium. Ticket buyers pay a quarter to 30% of the rest of the revenue of the league. Its a monopoly so they are guaranteed huge returns when they sell the team. So please, explain what risk they are taking.
NY_Yankee
The worst system is actually arbitration. Why? 1:. It guarantees raises even to those who do not deserve it ( see Gary Sanchez) or the team risks losing the player. 2: If a dispute goes to the arbitrator it creates bad blood between player and team. A better solution is free agency five years after he signs his contract. EX: If a player is drafted and signs in 2021, he is eligible to be a free agent after the 2026 season. That has the added benefit of eliminating the service time manipulation issue like with Kris Bryant
outinleftfield
That would not be serviceable either. Such a small percentage of players actually make it to the majors and it takes them nearly 5 years on average to get there today, that it would not be fair for either side to do that. The owners pay bonuses to draft players or sign them in international free agency and if 5 years after they signed that contract they were a free agent, the owners would be at a disadvantage. Make that 8 years for players drafted out of high school and international free agent signings and 6 years for players drafted out of college and you may be onto something. That put the average age of free agency at 27 years old. The owners would still balk at that, but it would be fair.
Motown is My Town
We as fans need to start boycotting MLB…that means stop buying their licensed hats, shirts, etc and not attend any games. If we do we should get the owners and players attention. If we don’t then shame on us and we deserve to be treated as poorly as we have been as neither the owners or players care about their fans
Ducey
Agreed. I’m not watching any of the games this week!
LordD99
Nothing will happen until MLB begins negotiating. Right now all the leagues does is delay and make minimal changes.
Jabronie23
You’ve got to be a real cucked moron to side with the owners on this. On anything, really. They’re leaches who add no value
LongTimeFan1
@Jabronie23
That’s such a ridiculous comment.
Here are the facts.
Owners own.
Players are employees. Already very well paid. And have 3-4 months a year of vacation.
Mickey#7
why did both sides wait so long to start negotiating?
Simple Simon
Because it’s not when you start, it’s when you finish.
It will be finished when the MLBPA gets enough to declare victory, or April 10 (after which the players will begin to lose money every game that’s cut off the schedule.
Patrick OKennedy
The owners waited six weeks.
The players have never waited more than 11 days since the lockout.
SaoMagnifico
They’re still waiting, as are we.
outinleftfield
The players union has been quick to come back with offers. The owners locked out the players and waited 43 days to make their first proposal after that. The players union responded in 2 days and it took the owners 10 days to respond to that.
Tiger_diesel92
When you build a 26 man roster how do you spread out $150 million evenly? When you sign a star player that takes maybe 50 percent of your payroll, selling a player where his value is high is good enough for blue chip prospects and mlb ready player. Save on cost and still compete.
wifflemeister
This is obviously a Russia-inspired plot. Or maybe China. Can’t trust those guys.
Now, where did I leave my tinfoil hat…
Jimbob 57
For all you folks who are giving the owners hell ,they are the ones taking all the risk, the players can go somewhere else and try to make this kind of money , they have the best Contracts in sports because they are guaranteed! Go talk to the Football & Basketball players
outinleftfield
What risk exactly? Taxpayers pay for the ballparks and the infrastructure. TV pays for all the other bills. Fans pay the rest. Then because MLB is a monopoly they are guaranteed a huge profit when they sell the team. So tell us again what risks the owners are taking. In the other majors sports the players are guaranteed 48-51% of the revenue of the sport and the books are open. So tell us again how the 38% MLB players made of total revenue makes them the best contracts in sports?
Sunday Lasagna
Just do away with the draft, supertwo status, years of arbitration leading to free agency. Have no limits on spending to sign amatuers or major league payroll. Make all players free agents that can sign a contract at any age. No rule 5 either. Let the owner with the deepest pockets and best scouts win. Hello NYY 1921-1943, 10 WS Championships!! Let’s do that! Players get to max out their worth, owners get full control over their payroll, and a new era of a small group of dominant teams heading to the playoffs year after year can begin.
Patrick OKennedy
The players have linked the arbitration cutoff date with the bonus pool- a tactical move.
No doubt the owners already viewed the bonus pool as a way of addressing pay for players pre arbitration.
Players know that 2.0 years is a non starter, but they still want some movement on that cutoff.
I suppose if there is any good news it is that the players have moved on one of the most offensive terms in their proposal. The other one being a cut in revenue sharing.
SaoMagnifico
I don’t think the owners have much interest in the bonus pool, given their response to the MLBPA proposing it was less than one-tenth of the ask. And the union’s counterproposal (and now taking those counterproposals off the table and reiterating their original ask) seemed to recognize that. I don’t think the owners have any intention of settling on a bonus pool at $60-80M, I don’t think they like the idea and aren’t going to seriously engage on it.
Patrick OKennedy
yeah, the owners are like, “hey if we can make this arbitration issue and pay the players more issue go away for $10 million, sure! But let’s freeze all those minimum salaries for players that don’t get the bonus. Fix the minimums and don’t raise them for five years”
LongTimeFan1
The players are the problem. Their revised proposal shows how truly they don’t want to negotiate fair deal. So greedy when they’re so well paid to begin with. They’re employees who want to be paid like they own the place.
These players can absolutely be replaced. Fans will root for whoever is in big league uniforms playing against opposing teams in same circumstance.
These players don’t even seem to care that the 20% of players not eligible for super two will be humiliated.
Rsk3228
The players do not want this to end, just get a mediator and work towards an end.
thebaseballfanatic
The time is ticking for the players. They’re offering as though they have leverage, but the ball is in the owners’ court. The players need the season to earn their paychecks. Who’s going to be the winner of these intense sweepskates?
The answer is, uh, nobody. Regardless of the CBA that is eventually agreed upon, the owners and players will remain disgruntled and at odds. Millions of fans will stop following the league in favour of other, more popular sports like basketball and football. This begs the question of why neither party has acted with more urgency – do they not see the incoming collapse of a sport that is slowly losing its identity, culture, and greater fanbase?
outinleftfield
Another new account. Surprise, surprise, its parroting the owners position. That can’t be a coincidence that all the new accounts are on the owners side, now can it.
Chicago Whales
I just hope that eventually the individuals in charge realize they need to sit down and actually talk or there’s going to be no money for any of them.
baseballtradition
They are both greedy. Fans will be the ones that loose out. Funny how I usually by some kind of MLB gear during February. Not this year, I won’t wear the stuff. I’m ashamed of MLB players and owners. They both need to step back and do what is good for the game. Play Ball!!
Simple Simon
Both greedy? The Owner-groups invest a Billion dollars or more in a franchise, then feed it hundreds of millions to run it per year. It’s greedy to hold the line against Millionaire players who are all in the top 1% of American households?
Simple Simon
The MLBPA sees the Owners apparently making a lot of money on their franchise equity (the lowest team “value” is just under a Billion $, most are a lot more than a Billion $ and don’t provide a large return on investment after spending hundreds of millions per year providing a league). The rich do get richer, thankfully, or we wouldn’t have MLB.
Although MLB players are starting at more than a half-million $ per year (that’s more than 99% of American households) and extending to the stratosphere with career earnings nearly half of the value of an entire franchise (Alex Rodriguez made $450MM, the Miami Marlins are worth $900MM).
How do these very lucky players get into this rich man’s club? Mostly after up to a half-dozen years of intensive training, instruction, and improvement through nearly endless repetition — all paid for by the Owners plus giving 50 or so per year a nice million-dollar + signing bonus.
Just 10-15% of the thousands of players trying to grab the Golden Ring “make it”! Most of the rest toil for years at barely subsistence wages, at the bottom with 5-month schedules they must work another job for half the year.
Perhaps the lucky few who are chosen ought to start thinking about unlucky many who are called.
48-team MLB
If players want more money then…
WAIT FOR IT…
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SIGN ENDORSEMENT DEALS. People act as if they can’t make money any other way than their MLB contracts.
ButchAdams
How does that help minor leaguers and young players still trying to make a name. Companies aren’t throwing endorsement money at those guys
48-team MLB
It won’t help minor leaguers but it will help the young “superstar” players and that’s who they’re trying to get more money for anyway.
Braveslifer
Scrap the MLB season and broadcast AAA and AA games instead. Pay the players the TV money. Let the MLB and MLBPA, both starve.
outinleftfield
MLB owns the minor leagues.
Jason29
I’m all for the players getting paid but my concern is how does small market teams compete with large market teams? My understanding is that the Tampa rays barely make a profit and they’re a playoff team. I’m not an expert on this but that is my concern.
outinleftfield
The Rays were around $250 million in revenue in 2021. How much did they spend on player salaries? They made a huge profit.
terry g
Is there any wonder why some teams waited to sign FA’s until after the new CBA was signed?
MLBPA came with a proposal and the meeting ended 15 minute later without a counterproposal . We’ll probably wait a week for MLB’s no.
These two sides are so far apart in may be June before they play a game.
SaoMagnifico
At this point, I think June 2022 is optimistic. June 2023, now we’re talking.
KENNETH A LICHTIG
Baseball and April cold weather don’t mix in the Northern States unless you have a domed stadium. This back and forth 15-minute bs meetings means they are not serious. Do the owners have an insurance policy if there is not a 2022 Baseball season?
outinleftfield
No. Federal labor law prohibits that.
99socalfrc
If the MLBPA wants more money for younger players why don’t they agree to a salary cap and max contracts?
Agreeing to a salary cap would be a huge bargaining chip. Offer todo it in exchange for dropping one year of team control on younger players. So players would get two years of minimum pay, three years of arbitration and then be a free agent.
The luxury tax is avoided by owners like the plague anyways so why does the union always balk at a salary cap.
outinleftfield
Why in the world would the MLBPA do that? MLB players already make the smallest amount of salaries of any of the majors sports. A salary cap and max salaries just further limits how much the players are getting.
slider32
This is an old bargaining ploy, the owners offered less and distracted the end game by throwing out they wanted to reduce the minor leagues players last week. Today, the players showed they get it, and increased their demands! Things still can change, but it is up to the owners, the ball is in their court right now!
99socalfrc
The players most certainly did not increase their demands here. They lowered the amount of players who reach arbitration sooner.
The only question left now is why do the players not ask for their union dues back? Once again it seems like they are being represented by Larry Moe & Curly.
Scott Kliesen
If the Owners agreed to Super 2 for 80% of the players, here would be the unintended consequences of it, substantially more players being non-tendered before completing 3 years of service.
How many marginal players are released before reaching arbitration now? Whatever it is, you can double it. Rather than young players getting paid more, the Union would be causing young players to be fired sooner. Be thankful the Owners rejected this horrible idea.
99socalfrc
That is an interesting way of seeing it. The MLBPA needs to find a % for Super 2 that only includes players good enough that teams would not want to release them. Seems like that should be 50% or lower, if a guy isn’t in the top 50% of his class probably noone will want to give him the raise.
outinleftfield
About 92% of pre-arbitration eligible players have entered arbitration over the past 10 years. That would b your number. The players proposal is already under that number.
Patrick OKennedy
The pay gap between minimum salaried players and arbitration eligible players has to be narrowed from both ends.
Increase the minimum salary substantially and shrink the class by letting more players become eligible for arbitration. Also, increasing the size of the super 2 class dilutes the talent pool and their numbers as an average will come down a bit.
Owners propose a minimum that barely keeps pace with inflation, freezing it for five years, and converting it to a maximum as well. At the same time they won’t budge on the super 2 cutoff.
Simple Simon
Barely keeps pace with inflation?
When the minimum salary is in the top 1% of all family-units, inflation means nothing!
Inflation hurts low incomes, not the high salaried!
If your rent goes up $1000/month you’re hurting if you make $50K or so, not $600K!
66TheNumberOfTheBest
“The players should give the owners foot rubs on a daily basis for the privilege of being employed like I do with my boss!!!”
Yankee Clipper
Josh, I’ve read some of your posts throughout here and was wondering…. are you looking for a job?
outinleftfield
If he is, I will give him one. Even if just for his sarcastic wit.
Chisox378
The players are playing it just like rest of the economy in the USA. Why go to work when you can just sit at home play on the internet and get paid by the government. I will take as much blame for this as anyone else, so its something I need to work on as well……..men are more and more are effeminate meaning they would rather seek pleasure than do the work.
Timothy Frith
On President’s Day, the MLB owners and the players union will meet again at the negotiating table, hoping to reach a new deal and end the work stoppage for good. On the day after President’s Day, the owners and the players union will finally agree to a new CBA and end the 83-day lockout. The permanent rule changes under a new deal will be the universal DH, doubleheaders consisting of 2 7-inning games, a leadoff runner at 2nd base in each half of extra innings, a draft lottery, the All-Star Game format switching from the AL vs. NL format to a draft-style format, the 14-team playoff format, the elimination of compensatory draft picks and qualifying offers for all 30 teams, a CBT threshold increasing to $245 million, a free agency period of 5 years, a universal 2-year arbitration, a pre-arbitration bonus pool increasing to $115 million and a collective salary arbitration of $1 billion. As a result, MLB will start spring training on March 24 and reduce the 2022 season from 162 games to 152 starting April 12.
Simple Simon
Maybe 20% of that will come about.
tiger9
Wake me when it’s over.
Timothy Frith
Sure thing, buddy.
HalosHeavenJJ
Players are making a serious concession here. I applaud a genuine effort to get a deal done and this looks like one.
Simple Simon
What is ONE cocession the players are making?
brucenewton
Players haven’t made any concessions.
HalosHeavenJJ
Rant: I really don’t like the way arbitration is handled. I’m in home loans and have a real estate license. When we run comparable sales we simply look at the numbers and condition of the property. However in arbitration you have to look at only guys with similar service time. It makes no sense.
A player’s numbers should be compared to all of his peers. Just like my house would be compared to all of the houses in my neighborhood, not just the ones that were purchased when mine was purchased.
Using real comparables would result in massively higher salaries for excellent young players. Salaries they fully deserve.
NYMetsFanatic
Eff both sides of this assclown catastrophe. WE are the ones getting shafted. We are the ones who lose. Both sides have more $ than they know what to do with. If it weren’t for US, neither side would even exist.
RobM
I have no idea how MLB will get the MLBPA to agree to the expanded playoffs and the $100M owners are hoping for when they basically refuse to offer anything of value to the players. So far the owners want to increase their share and decrease the players’ share.
The players may have to do what hockey did and sit out the entire season. Perhaps that’s why they hired their lead negotiator from the NHL this time around.
scottaz
Isn’t it refreshing to read the owner’s reaction to the MlBPA? Express confidence an agreement can be reached, instead of the MLBPA’s sanctimonious eye rolling, holier than thou “underwhelming”
Timothy Frith
Both sides will likely be overwhelmed.
BLIN7Y
Not taking the Owners side here but I do want to point out how ridiculous it seems when talking about how underpaid the Players are. I understand the average career is 3.7 years which is short but in doing the Math using just a minimum salary fo $575,000 per year we get a total of $1,725,000 for those 3 years.
That to me seems like a very nice 3.5 year pay day. I don’t think the Players should take a position that they should somehow be entitled to earn 10’s of Millions of Dollars when most people don’t earn that after working 40 years or more.
The kind of money players make just starting out is enough to set them up to do something else in life at a young Age if they are not Good enough to have a longer career.
Now they do deserve a fair share of the Pie but crying underpaid is not viable claim, IMO
BlueSkies_LA
The logic of this kind of thinking completely escapes me. If the pay for players wasn’t artificially restricted it would be even higher because they are the best of the best in an industry awash in money.
BLIN7Y
Then you need to re-read what I wrote because you obviously read into what I wrote what you wanted it to say.
I didn’t say they shouldn’t get a fair share of the Pie. I said, the claim of being underpaid was not warranted.
BlueSkies_LA
I read what you said and understood it. You believe a “fair share” for players should continue to be artificially set at something less than the market value of their services. The owners demand rules to prevent themselves from spending what they would spend on players if the market for labor was unrestricted. This is why they insist on a CBT, arbitration, and the like, the very items under debate right now. Without imposing those rules on themselves they’d pay players more, not less. Probably a lot more. The market would decide what they are worth and what share is fair. MLB doesn’t want that, anything like it to happen.
outinleftfield
MLB players make the lowest percentage of revenue of players in any of the major sports in the US. They are underpaid. They are entertainers. Do you complain that “the Rock” made $85 million last year?
vtbaseball
@BLIN
Is it 3.7yrs though? You’re forgetting the 5yrs? playing for diddley squat in the minors. That should be factored in there.
wifflemeister
Classic negotiating ploy. Drop a “demand” that was never going to fly anyway so as to make another slightly less objectionable point more palatable in hopes that it will be accepted. Negotiating 101
MarlinsFanBase
Is this over yet?
Yankee Clipper
Not quite but really, really close. Just hang on just a little…bit…….longer.
Timothy Frith
It will be over sooner rather than later, I hope.
48-team MLB
Ironically that’s what Marlins fans are saying by June for nearly two decades now.
NOTE: I still think the Mets situation is more sad.
Timothy Frith
It will be over sooner rather than later, I hope.
Phillies2017
At this point, I just want the league to fold to give way to one that actually gives a f****.
Like they met for 15 minutes today. There’s a reason baseball is falling behind every other sports league and that’s because it’s run by a bunch of f-ing toddlers. Grow the hell up.
Yankee Clipper
Hey, language, please! Oh, wait, that could mean “first” also. Hm…. Intriguing.
KCROCKERS
Good Luck to players trying to get the best of Billionaire owners. If players think costing the owners millions by losing regular games will be a win for them they’re sadly mistaken.
My sympathy is with players mostly, but don’t see where their leverage is against Billionaires who will still be billionaires regardless.
Read players are willing to meet with owner reps everyday next week, which makes no sense after giving a FU to owners today.
outinleftfield
Billionaires that will be losing billions if regular season games are not played for even one month.
KCROCKERS
Total revenue in MlB in 2019 was estimated at 10.8 billion MLB player payroll was 4 billion last year. 10.8 minus 4 = 6.8 billion divided by 30 teams doesn’t equal out to billions per owner. Billionaires are winners by definition.
Unfortunate truth in today’s world of extreme wealth.
Yankee Clipper
How do you use 2019 revenue but player costs from last year? That seems….. incorrect. That’s pure profit though too, not the increase in team worth, which also does make a difference. For example, the Yankees are worth $7B alone.
KCROCKERS
Had to use the numbers available to me. Doesn’t really matter in regards to my point of not costing the owners billions.
Just to be clear, not siding with owners, just saying owners have already won. There’s a reason owners implemented a lock out, waited so long to make an offer, and have offered as little as they have. Sure, one can argue greed and breaking the union are mainly the reasons, but the fact is Billionaires believe they can is the overriding factor in doing so.
Yankee Clipper
Okay, I understand your perspective and you bring up valid points. I think it’s a combination of both, but they certainly do it because they can, without a doubt.
KcsMsFan
This is all so short-sighted on both sides. While billionaires and millionaires argue over who can squeeze the other side more they will continue to lose more and more fans which will in turn hurt their profits more in the long run. Do they not realize the longer this goes and the more reports we hear of an absolute ridiculous 15 minute “negotiation” the more people will turn away from this sport for good.
KCROCKERS
Yes, absolutely shortsighted on both sides. However, players union pitching a curveball yesterday made no sense to me.
We’ll see what happens next week. Less optimistic now.
Thornton Mellon
Nothing generates productivity as much as the last minute.
I love the folks supporting the owners. Let’s translate that to real life. So after not making anything (and probably paying tuition) while you were in college which we can equate to minor leagues/college ball, you go to a job interview expecting a starting salary of $50,000 because your degree and skill level state that you are worth that. Some people in that field are $100,000 after time. You looked at the financials, the company is worth $20,000,000 a year and the CEO makes 7 figures and drives a Porsche. The employer calls saying please come in so we can discuss our offer and start date, and you go to the interview (like a major league rookie).
The market data supports your claim you are worth $50,000. But the employer says: “well you’re new. So you’re going to make $7,500/year with a 3% increase for the first three years, and if doing well then we can negotiate.” Would you take the job? ALL players in this circumstance do, and are required to take it.
So you take it. You have easily gleaned productivity numbers which show you are at minimum average, and maybe above average. You get to 2 years and 11.5 months at $7,500 a year working your butt off with your anniversary date and that $50,000 salary circled on your calendar but living in your parents’ basement and eating Ramen 3 meals a day. Then you get hurt and your performance drops. You know you can recover, and look at all that $50,000/year caliber performance you gave while only costing them $7,500 a year.
Your employer says: “sorry, we don’t have a position for you. Pack up your things, security will escort you out in 10 minutes, and we are not in a position to give you a recommendation for another job.” Up for that risk? If not willing to do all of this, you are contradicting yourself in supporting the owners.
Yes the numbers are bigger in MLB and no, I don’t have any sympathy for players upset at making over half a million a year, but look at their market. I am just equalizing the numbers that make sense to regular folks like us.
Thornton Mellon
In the same vein, here is what the MLB owners try to do:
You are a homeowner (MLB owner) and your wife says that you can spend $30,000 to $50,000 to finish the basement for your man cave. Anything left over, you can get a car. Most of you want a great man cave (winning team) to show off to your friends (the fans) right?
Anyway, you have teams of contractors (the players) and you tell them you have a month to do the job. You negotiate the final price for what they promise as low as you can, because you want that car, too. But then you tell the contractors: “here’s the thing. For the first 10 to 12 days of the month, I’m only paying you $100 a day, and if it looks good we’ll talk about the rest of the deal.” In real life, they laugh and walk away. In this reality, they are forced to accept your terms. Some may produce nothing, some may just about finish the most beautiful man cave ever. But that homeowner, still with the car in mind, could fire them regardless of what they’ve produced. What’s to stop the homeowner from bringing in different teams of contractors to finish the job to their satisfaction, but the same terms of $100 a day for the first 10-12 days?
Some homeowners (large market teams) are fine maxing out the $50,000 for the best man cave ever, they may overpay. The Orioles and Pirates homeowners don’t care if their friends have to come over and sit on buckets using their own phone data to watch a game in their man caves, but have their new cars. Most fall in the middle. But ALL of them try to get the work done as cheaply as possible, and ALL require the contractors to accept $100/day for the first 10 or 12 days, no matter the quality of work.