11:15 AM: At least one player has decided to chime on the conversation. Zack Britton responded (via Twitter) to Heyman’s earlier tweet with a very simple and straightforward, “This is not accurate.”
10:28 AM: The prospects of owners and players being close to an agreement has been characterized as “beyond absurd” by someone close to the players, per Ben Nicholson-Smith of Sportsnet.ca (via Twitter). Nicholson-Smith adds that the players will need to see more than just the incremental changes to the Collective Bargaining Tax that owners were offering yesterday.
9:34 AM: Amid all the doom-and-gloom surrounding the CBA negotiation, there is at least one voice suggesting a deal could be in the offing. MLB Network’s Jon Heyman reports this morning that the two sides are “within striking distance” of a deal, and the two sides could reach a suitable compromise by tomorrow night. MLBTR’s sources disagree vehemently with Heyman’s report, however, and continue to say that a deal is not close.
Most of the other scuttlebutt, including from Heyman, suggests that the players left yesterday’s session upset and unconvinced of the owners willingness to negotiate in earnest. At the same time, despite the hostility, players have not walked away yet, with another meeting scheduled between the two sides for today at noon.
Heyman suggests the difference could be a settling of the luxury tax threshold around the $230MM mark. That would more-or-less evenly split the divide between the two sides, but that’s not the way negotiations have leaned thus far. That’s to say nothing of the many other issues on which the two sides are at odds. At last reporting, the gap between the two was still at $31MM for 2022, with the players offering a $245MM luxury tax line, and the owners countering at $214MM.
Owners: You know that the season could be completely cancelled and that the country would hardly care or even notice (because baseball is culturally irrelevant) and you also know that you could easily find much better ROI’s than MLB. MLB players are already spoiled and treated great for playing a game with a stick and a ball and mittens 7-8 months per year and you know it. Lifetime benefits after 6 weeks on a MLB roster, many of them receive signing bonuses (frequently major bonuses) before ever playing their first professional game, entry level salary is in the top 1% of incomes, average salary (more than $4 million!!!) is in the top 1/10th of 1% of incomes, playoff bonuses, awards bonuses, daily food allowance, luxury hotels, luxury travel accommodations, etc. Enough is enough- stop being weak and stop allowing MLBPA to make you look like chump pushovers. Hold the line! Stop giving in!! BREAK THE MLBPA UNION!!!
The players need to state,
“We will under no circumstance play for anything less than full salary for 2022 regardless of the length of schedule.”
This is the only way that they will ever get leverage. The owners may call them on their claim and then there would be no baseball in 2022.
But, if the owners don’t start capitulating soon, this is in my opinion the best path for the players union for their future. Sure, it will hurt, but they supposedly have a war chest for this very contingency. I say use it.
I wish that would work FSF, but it’s highly unlikely. I lean more towards the players with this entire debacle. With that being said, Meyer’s track record is one that leads to consternation in negotiations and to lockouts. The NHL lost almost half a season when Meyer was negotiating. He focused on several key items that are somewhat similar to what he is asking for in this round of negotiations. Specifically more pay for younger players and a quicker route to free agency. After the lockout, NHL players had lost ground in a lot of areas. Meyer’s response was that they would have been worse off if they hadn’t missed games. This guys track record is one of butting heads and not getting as much as the players would hope. Based off history of what Meyer has been involved in, I don’t see this ending any time soon.
The declaration is a completely new thing and the foundation of why this is a completely different path. Basically, the players are saying,
“We’re willing to go scorched earth!”
And who owns that earth? I am almost absolutely sure that if no baseball is played in 2022, the players would gain much more leverage. Now they would obviously hurt, but progress hurts. Besides does anyone actually think that any player is really going to go homeless or hungry because baseball is not played this year?
For the near future, the goal shouldn’t be, make as much money as you can. It should be to ensure a larger share of the pie moving forward. Or at least that’s how the players seem to have postured it for years now.
Wholeheartedly agree that the players should get a larger piece of the pie. Personally, I’m still baffled that the MLPBA didn’t want to go the route of revenue share. Granted it would have resulted in some pain, but I think it would be better for the players long term. I also think it would have been better for the game long term. But I’m just a nobody thousandaire who is a massive fan (albeit a frustrated one). So I’m not pretending to know better than the players would.
Can’t compare hockey to baseball. Salary structure in MLB is so much more both comparing the U.S. to the world and between the sports. I still find it sad that they really don’t care about the fans and without fans, there is no baseball.
I think the players would be willing to revenue share, but how do you do that when the owners don’t let you see the whole pie.
I’m not for the players but there can’t be revenue sharing without trust and a full accounting. The Red Sox for example can hide true profits as they own their stadium and most of their TV network.
But wait a minute, why should the owners show “the whole pie” while the players just rule-out revenue sharing altogether?. You’re putting the cart before the horse, aren’t you? It’s almost as if the MLBPA is afraid to open that door…for reasons…? I mean, do the players think that, for the most part, what they’ve been getting over the last 30-40 years, has been better than a 50/50 split – and therefore they’re dead-set against going that route? It makes one wonder.
I would guess the players probably received between 35-40% over the last couple CBAs from what I’ve read. Or it is heading that way. The CBT limits killed them percentage-wise in the one that just expired.
Do you honestly believe the players in today’s game are getting 50%+ of the revenues generated by MLB? In fewer than the last 10 years reported revenues—TV, gate receipts, concessions, etc.—have risen by billions (not to mention all those extras around the ballparks) while players’ salaries have stagnated.
It’s not that they don’t care about us fans. They just take us for granted.
I don’t know, Tom. That’s the problem. If the players got less than 50% in this last decade, did the owners get less than 50% in the prior decade? Do the players want to correct that by getting more than 50% now? Do the owners want to keep more than 50%, as a permanent new-normal?
I want to know why neither side is pushing for a 50/50 set-up. Until that’s been explained to me – honestly and completely – I’m suspicious of both sides motives. For the moment, it “appears” to me that the owners will make moderately meaningful concessions, while the players will only accept massive concessions. As such, I can’t tell if the players just want equity – or really want superiority. (And please, let’s assume that some of the numbers being tossed out by both sides, are more along the lines of “the best defense is a good offense” rather than compromise. Which also tells us something, I think.)
It looks like there’s more than just percentages being fought over here. It looks like the players are ideologically opposed to concepts that other professional player orgs have accepted as reasonable – 50/50 splits, with the caps, floors and revenue sharing that are required to make that work. Why?
Do the owners – in reality – prefer to avoid those same conventions? If so, why?
I’d like to know the answers to all of these questions. Is there a knowledgeable, unbiased, honest broker out there, who can set the record straight?
When 24 of the 30 teams don’t approach the CBT with their payroll anyway, its hard to say that the CBT has had an effect on much of anything.
A distinction without a difference.
We’re not a priority … and won’t be until we take our money elsewhere and they see what it’s like to be fighting over half the revenue five years from now.
Not all of them get any of that, any player on the 40 man who has not paid any dues will not be eligible, and those who have won’t have enough
Agreed. I’m to the point that I hope the owners stand there ground and the season is cancelled. Then the spoiled players, who are being screwed by there own union trying to save face, will either have to get real jobs or realize how lucky they have it, and play the game. And then this situation will never occur again.
Well at least the owners aren’t spoiled. Give me a break. There is plenty of blame to go around.
And minor league baseball makes a comeback. And those privileged men on 40 man rosters most of whom got the signing bonuses have to start living off the savings. And the rest of the country will attend a game in a smaller city, have some fun with some corny promotions, take their family of. 4 and get out if there for well under the $200 box seat ONE of them would paid just to watch those privileged men d the same thing.
Players seem to be at least engaging in some back and forth on their wishes. Owners seem to be saying things like “non-starter” and “non-negotiable”. I think the owners ar3 trying to ram “their deal” down the players throats.
This may be because its the Union & players who are leaking most of the information we are getting.
I think Owners are leveraging time to their benefit. I fully expect we’ll see both sides move more to middle today and tomorrow since the loss of real games is quickly approaching.
If nobody cares about baseball, and if baseball is culturally insignificant, why are you following these negotiations and posting about them?
I wrote to both MLB and MLBPeeA years ago about drastic changes needed to make the game culturally relevant again and to save the game. I received a warm response from MLB. No response at all from MLBPeeA- they’re the problem!!!
Ah, so you’re an emotionally damaged lover scorned. Now all your rants make sense.
Voice,
What are your qualifications in any relevant field regarding baseball operations or economics?
He’s the antithesis of a reasonable voice.
I can take that one for voice…none other than the ability to properly use a shift key on the keyboard and come up with horribly unfunny and juvenile ways to insult the MLBPA…
If what he is saying is true (highly dubious) I’d be amazed if he got anything other than a form letter from his man crush Peter Angelos saying that’s for writing.
P.h.D from MIT at 23.
oh so because the MLBPA had the sense to see your ridiculous ramblings for what they were and because the owners most likely sent you a polite form letter they send to everyone who writes them they are somehow the problem…gotcha…
Highly doubt any of what you said is true though.
I call BS on that P.h.D but I’ll give you some credit because it rhymed
More evidence an education puts adds Knowledge but removes common sense.
Let me give u an idea dshires.. Try writing some kind (any) of letter to state, national politicians of both parties you might have and see 1st of all.. Which just responds with a reply NOT a form letter, then which doesn’t just ignore u, but add you to their future junk email list?
Sometimes groups (and individuals) putting themselves above the masses and believing they have no need to respond isn’t the correct way to behave.
Halo11Fan-you’re giving him way too much credit. He was clearly trolling with that PhD nonsense
The_Voice_Of_REASON1 hour ago
I wrote to both MLB and MLBPeeA years ago about drastic changes needed to make the game culturally relevant again and to save the game. I received a warm response from MLB. No response at all from MLBPeeA- they’re the problem!!!
What kind of a narcist are you that that is your reasoning? Get over yourself!
after i heard a politician with a degree in economics from an ivy league school say unemployment was low because everyone was working two jobs i lost some faith in higher education. This phd might have sealed the deal on it.
Has MLB implemented any of your proposals?
I thought not. Ok, then they’re just as bad as MLBPeeA.
I lost faith in our education system when I paid for my wife’s master degree because she couldn’t find a job that paid well enough to pay for it.
Colleges are a racket. What else costs figures and provides no real life value?
MLBPeeA? What are you 13?
Moorhaven Institute of Theraputics?
BS
@Bry, perhaps you just don’t understand the sort of humor that a PERSON OF LETTERS brings to the table. It’s not that anyone on here is a pedantic contrarian who is pursuing their lifelong goal of being the least likeable person in the room, it is simply, again, that you just don’t GET how smart some people are.
Sigh.
Now, if you’ll pardon me, I’m dripping with sarcasm and need to find an overvalued piece of paper to soak up all this knowledge and wit.
Big deal,
Tony Stark graduated from MIT when he was 17.
So, you’re (ostensibly) intellectually gifted in terms of science/technology/math etc., but if you lack emotional intelligence, so what?. You could very well be stunted in your ability to make cogent evaluations about equity and fairness or the very nature of conflicting human values..
C’mon now Voice_Of, having a “P.h.D ” from an advanced science institution – yes, even from MIT – (especially earning one at 23!) doesn’t necessarily mitigate that, not hardly. There are plenty of empathy-challenged intellects in the world (including some psychopaths). History is replete with them.
Better to make convincing arguments than to rant repetitively and wave your credentials around. Doing that is intellectually lazy, anyway.
It’s a true P.H.D. Stands for “Pin Head Disorder.” Lol
what took you so long
Lol
Ha, in some cases sure … in most cases though, um no.
He might be Manfred.
Halo – I’ve been saying the same thing for decades.
If somebody wants to be an accountant, and over a two year period they can take every course necessary to be a good one, why should they be forced to attend college for another two years while taking courses that won’t in any way help them with an accounting career? How does learning how to cut open a frog help you become an accountant? Why is learning about American history so important if it has nothing to do with your career? The argument about “making you well rounded” is a bunch of BS. As long as you learn Math, English, and courses related to your career, that’s all you need.
Eighty percent of college is nothing more than temporarily memorizing crap that will be soon forgotten because it has no future relevance or value to the person who memorized it.
And another racket within a racket is textbooks. They charge an exorbitant amount for books because there’s no cheaper alternatives, and make slight changes each year which means the books can’t be re-used by other students.
Licenses and registration
What’d you pull me over for?
I find it funny how easily owners manipulate fans to be on there side, billionaires could don’t give a shat bout the fans , players are fighting for there rights as well as the longer term interest in the sport, owners just want to use the term small market excuse even though there all billionaires
You have it backwards- owners are in it for the long haul of the game and the long haul interest of the game- “players” come and go and their only interest is near term personal gain- the bigger picture is irrelevant to them!
Most owners (and Manfred) don’t care about the future wellbeing of baseball—they care about earnings. As long as their organization is profitable, they could give a rats behind about the on the field product.
Players are actual fans of the game, they care. Yes they care about maxing their earnings in what is on average a 2.7 year career (down from 5.6 in 2007), just as you would if you were only going to work for 3 years and then be done making significant money after that.
The owners are in it until they want to be done, their earnings potential is near limitless.
Both are an inevitability, a consequence of one another because of greed and selfishness. Why? Good question: The owners, left to their own devices, take full advantage of their power and will stop at nothing to minimize payroll, exploit a workforce, and maximize profit, necessitating a union. The union, left to its own devices, will resort to its own devices, will resort to its socialist roots and take everything from ownership to disperse among the workforce, thereby necessitating ownership collective clamping down.
Everything you said makes sense, but you diluted your argument by using the ideologically-freighted term “socialist roots” – that’s a right-wingers trope. We’d have never made any progress, anytime or anywhere in human history, if greed and selfishness were our only operating paradigm. I’m sure you’ve heard of enlightened self-interest. Therein lies much of human progress. Chaos is no way to live, and neither is authoritarianism.
The point is that for a lot of unions (maybe not all) the idea is fairness – not “taking everything”. And the organizing principles of many business owners these days have evolved to include “conscience capitalism”, and mission statements that define success as being multi-stakeholder driven (the betterment of employees, share-holders, and the community at large – all given equal weight). Far too many of us cleave to ideology when we’re better served by moderation, not polarization. It’s a habit that gets reinforced by our associations to socio-economic, religious, partisan and political organizations that tend to paint everything in blacks and whites.
Literally and figuratively – as it happens 🙂
Goob: I think you misunderstood me, unless you are arguing that socialism didn’t start unions in this country. If you are, recheck that fact. Also, I have nothing against unions as my father was a 45-year union guy & a union rep.
I was merely speaking to the natural human instinct to return to his most selfish nature when unchecked. The owners to their extreme, unchecked power & exploitation, the union to their socialistic ideology of financial distribution. I don’t see how that invalidates my argument unless you are suggesting unions would not distribute funds in accordance with their base tendencies.
I was not implying or inferring that either side operates in such a manner intentionally or with nefarious intent which seems to be the direction you’re leaning. Nor am I suggesting that’s an immediate default. My point was a response to all those saying to break the union, or break management – that regardless of one side didn’t exist in its current state, this all would be inevitable eventually anyway.
I’m saying that base tendencies can be, and often are, usurped by mutual, enlightened self-interest. It can be a form of grace. And I’m saying that’s a choice – and therefore intentional.
I’m saying that trafficking in the “isms”, whether as historic markers or as present day ones (we all do it) often casts more shade – than light.
Goob: Yes, so you do misunderstand my statement, obviously. You are missing the “unchecked” part of my two separate narratives, which is the operative word. Meaning if there was no union, there would be no mutual enlightened self interest, imo. And vice versa with any power structure – see: history, for a billion examples.
So, in a different way, there can only be grace via mutual, enlightened self-interest if both sides exist and have some degree of power in the first place. So those who opine to “destroy the union!!!” don’t realize that if that occurred, management would take it to the extreme (see MiLB for reference), thus resulting in the collective body demanding unionization, and we would be right back here, today, so they could try to reach the mutually enlightened self-interest.
I think you’re arguing with me when we actually agree. If you still argue, you’re saying you can give one side complete autonomy & total power and they would provide a fair deal for both – and that’s simply untrue. If you’re not happy I spoke of the fact that unions came from social(ism) than I can’t help that it’s a fact, but why does that matter?
Because if you didn’t think it mattered, you wouldn’t have said it in the first place, right?
The players aren’t coming “from social(ism)” whatever you may think using that term implies about what you call – their “roots”.
And I don’t think today’s capitalists/entrepreneurs/industrialists and innovators are indelibly linked to their head-busting, hired-thug, sweat-shop, death-trap-working-conditions, monopolist forebears, either.
We certainly agree about much of the nuts and bolts part of this, but I think we have philosophical differences about tossing labels around – historical or otherwise.
Now you say, “If you still argue, you’re saying you can give one side complete autonomy & total power and they would provide a fair deal for both – and that’s simply untrue.”
No. If I “still argue” it doesn’t mean that at all – and your assertion that it does, is reductionist – it’s a straw-man argument.
But hey, if you’re not happy with a little push-back about these differences of ours, I can’t help that. And “why does (it) matter” so much to you? We’re both free to speak our minds here, right?
Goob: First, I was asking why it mattered [to you]. It mattered to me to further my point about human nature. My… “reductionist “ view of human nature played out on the world stage and microcosms thereof a million times over, so it’s an observation.
And I’m not upset at all with “pushback,” so argue was not the correct term on my part. I’m fine with the discussion with you. I respect you, but we disagree about mankind’s nature with total power.
You believe utopia is achievable through humans, I say it is not. But, I ask, how is my point a straw man if it’s reflected throughout history and worldwide. Like, nearly every single human that’s had total power over a people has abused it horribly. In fact, in employment it’s reflected by the very MLB ownership that you’re defending, in the minor league system right now. So….. yeah, okay.
Anyway, man, like I said, to me it’s a discussion and no hard feelings on my end even if you plant your flag on your utopian outlook. I respect it. I think you mistook some things I wrote, or maybe I could’ve written them in a more constructive way to be less abrasive to you, or whatever. This is way to deep for baseball talk, man.
Fact: the books are closed and aren’t going to open.
Fact: no one knows the profit level of each team. Its all guess work, but I assume they are profitable.
Fact: during the expired CBA, minimum salary was $570K, and maximum was Bauers $40MM.
I have been management most of my working life so I do tend to lean that way, but as no-one knows all the relevant numbers on the players side, I would look to make progress and keep my members getting paid, and the dues rolling in.
This is not a Norma Rae situation. Players are well compensated, and have excellent working conditions. Owners are allowed to make money, and if they dont, that won’t be good for the employees either. The players know they were not going to get what they originally asked for, which was intentionally on the high end. Look at how much of a change there is from what the last CBA provided to see which side has moved. The last CBA is the starting point in negotiations. What each side asks is just part of the negotiations.
This is a negotiation.
If a team wasn’t profitable, you can be damn sure they would be letting you see the books that show it so.
Hiding the books can only mean one thing, they don’t want you to know exactly how profitable they actually are.
Some people (including former presidents) don’t want you to know how unprofitable they actually are. It can effect their credit.
Ha!
Saying baseball is culturally irrelevant might be the dumbest thing I’ve ever read on MLBTR. And that’s saying a lot.
You clearly don’t have children and don’t understand that baseball is woven into our cultural fabric. That’s ‘why’ (including you whether you want to admit it) many of us are so pissed off because Major League Baseball (as an institution) is entrusted in playing the game we love at the highest level. We own baseball. They borrow it to make money. If those same owners and players played badminton, nobody would care. It’s the game that matters, not the owners or players. That’s why ESPN makes millions off of the Little League championships. Baseball is our institution. Baseball is culturally relevant.
A_Voice_Of_STUPIDITY
Maybe I’d be in the minority but I’d definitely would cate. I got tix to a cubs and dbacks game in late May. First time in over 10 years since I’ve been to Chicago and wrigley
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
During the latest MLB player chat on MLBTR, the former player cleared up the whole “benefits for life” issue. MLB players do NOT get benefits for life if they play in MLB for 1 game or 6 weeks as stated above. He said it takes 4 full seasons in order to qualify for lifetime benefits. While this player played for 5-6 seasons, he was shuttled back and forth between MLB & AAA so he did not end up with 4 years of service and therefore didn’t qualify for these benefits (or even for the opportunity to pay for MLB benefits).
@MLBTR Staff – Once this lockout is behind us, it would be great to see an article on what it takes for players to qualify for “lifetime benefits” and what that truly means. Is this health insurance for life? Would they need to pay for it (like COBRA) or is this free of charge for them? Inquiring minds want to know!
@voice of reason, you seem to care an awful lot about owners that don’t care if you’re dead or alive. Get over yourself putz
T he voice of
R eason
O nly wants
L ots of attention
L oser!!
Painful Itch is 100% Correct!
The majority sees it loud and clear!
If I am a billionaire owner I will just put my best offer out like the owners already have. Then I just wait out the players. It’s good business. They players have been offered raises it all unions usually care about. I know I’ve spent half my adult life working as a union member. The problem is MLBPA agreed to bad contracts in the past and now think they can make it all up in one swoop. Still it’s hard to feel sorry for MLB players when the minimum salary puts them in the elite 1% earners in the USA. A large percentage of MLB players these days are also from outside the country which the minimum salaries are worth maybe 10 times more to them than a MLB player who is a USA citizen. It’s really hard for me to feel sorry for the players on this situation. You can be sure the minor league players will be jumping at the offer to be replacement players. Probably best to cancel the 2022 MLB season at this point. 3 months and no agreement is laughable.
We need a downvote button.
Anti union jargon makes me throw up
@NW. MLBTR had a downvote button for years up until maybe 2 years ago. It was a beautiful thing but too many got their feelings hurt and it’s gone forever. There was actually people calling for the comments section to be closed altogether because they didn’t have the self control to ignore them.
They don’t get lifetime benefits for one day or six weeks of service time check out the chat with pitcher Cristian Bergman he says that’s big myth,it takes a lot more service time
Why do you need to single out THESE entertainers.
What about a 20yo actor making 10 million a movie? No problem with that at all.
It’s both sides not caring if a new CBA isn’t met. It’s a pissing contest between the two. I am ready to turn my back on MLB after supporting them my whole life. Baseball has been my love and passion. But this is no different from the 1993-95 strike. Same junk, different timeline
Worst post. Even the NHL has higher minimum salaries and much higher salaries for their minor league teams. Baseball elite players make too much and get rewarded for past performances. It’s too top heavy. The bottom and the middle need to paid more. Having 4 or 5 players per team making over 30 million a year is unsustainable and bad for the game. 20 of the 26 players on the team are underpaid.
I mean I’d like to see them play this season but if it not it’d be, oh well I guess I’ll have to find something else to watch now. I’ll come back but there are so many options now it feels like both sides are overplaying their hands when it comes to younger audiences.
Does anybody REALLY care anymore? I know I don’t.
6 billion dollar industry when stagflation is the name, sure, we won’t notice when 6 billion stops circulating?
Heyman of the same MLB network that got rid of Rosenthal? I’m hopeful but skeptical of anything he’s putting out.
The reason things don’t work on the ‘even split’ principle is that it begs unreasonable proposals, If there is going to be an ‘even split’ based on whatever is proposed, why wouldn’t the union just propose $500MM? Instead, the clubs know where the limit is and then work in bargaining towards that.
The second thing, and the more important thing is the penalties. The owners have agreed that there will be no draft pick losses for signing a FA when you stay under the CBT threshold. The union though, wants no draft pick comp for FA’s AND no real penalties for exceeding the CBT. That won’t fly.. Not now, not in 2 months, not in 2 years, .
The limit is 30% more than it was when the last CBA was signed because that is how much revenue (and profits for the two teams that have open books) has gone up. The CBT should start at $255 million.
The union has already compromised on that one. It’s time for the owners to get real. The union is not going to agree to the increases in penalties, especially the draft pick losses and the increased international free agent pool losses.
The CBT has amounted to a hard cap because even the largest payroll teams have chosen to lower payroll every couple of years to drop back under it. Increased penalties make it more of a hard cap.
Until the owners agree to raise the CBT threshold and lower penalties there will not be a new CBA.
only 3 or 4 teams pay anywhere near the current CBT. You can raise it to a billion.. if they raise it to where the players want…maybe 3 or 4 teams will spend it, the others will stay pretty much where you are… Fun to watch Dodgers Yankees in world series for the next 50 years…
… because that’s totally how the playoffs go when you look at them, the high payroll team wins? No. With 12 or 14 playoff teams, the 3 or 4 top payroll teams aren’t going to make the world series most years.
Back in the days of the reserve clause when there were no free agents for the Yankees and Dodgers to sign, that’s when we actually had Yankees vs Dodgers every year. Competitive balance has been far, far better since free agency.
It will be done by Monday. To much for players to lose. Spring training has turned into a joke.
I’ve thought this from the beginning and was beginning to think that I was the only one. Typical negotiation stubbornness aside, 1994 wasn’t that long ago and it took years to recover and this was before social media. Too much to lose for both sides.
They’d better not take the fans for granted or there will eventually not be enough fans. Losing games serves no one.
@Best- the players will not trade free agent compensation for harder CBT penalties, and the owners are well aware of that. CBT penalties are a third rail issue, while the QO compensation is just a bargaining chip for owners that they’ve decided to agree to even in the last round of bargaining.
An average of seven players a year over the last five year agreement have been subject to a Qualifying offer, and some of those resigned with their old clubs. In the last round, owners offered to trade it for an international draft.
They have whittled the application of the QO compensation down, eliminating it for players who are traded during the season, and then players who were offered a QO previously. It’s just not significant any more, and in most cases, it’s nothing to give up for the most elite players in the game.
Harder CBT penalties are a complete 100 percent non starter. Players would much rather live with the free agent compensation, as much as it’s just another penalty for teams spending on free agent players. What they call “artificial restrictions on the free market”.
The QO draft pick loss only effects 2-3 players a year. Its not even a factor.
@keysox – Unless the owners completely cave into player demands, I don’t see them coming to an agreement by Monday. The players have dug their heels in and appear to be ready to miss a substantial number of games until they get close to what they are asking for. There is no way the owners are going to agree to a $100M+ bonus pool to be paid to the top 150 pre-arb players, especially if they end up agreeing to a substantial increase in the league minimum salaries.
In my opinion, the one thing owners should be willing to accept is a sizable increase in the CBT thresholds. This costs them nothing; they just need to show spending restraint if they don’t want to spend more than $220M on payroll. Players can’t force them to spend up to the thresholds so in theory these thresholds mean nothing to the teams or the owners. It might benefit a few big spenders like the Mets but most teams can easily stay below these artificial ‘caps’ and field a very competitive team.
Dorothy- owners don’t have to completely cave, but they do have to drop all the CBT tax increases and added draft penalties or there will be no deal. They might get that if players drop the super two cutoff change.
The other numbers, including the large gaps, can be closed.
The CBT thresholds are not irrelevant numbers. Teams have set their budgets to stay under the thresholds. Six of them over $200 million but under the $210 million de facto cap. Players have been willing to die on that hill for a few decades now, even as they’ve let the penalties creep in as a de facto salary cap.
The mid point between their two proposals is just under $230M
The current threshold with a 7% adjustment is $225M
If they settled on that and got rid of the draconian penalties, I think they would get to a deal
Even if the agreement comes down the road a week or so, it’s still worth it for both sides, financially, for the players to be paid for a full season and owners to bag that extra $100 million plus for expanded playoffs. At that point, owners would want to make up the missed games and get some bank
When done by multiple teams, “showing spending restraint” is legally called collusion. The owners have lost multiple cases for collusion. They won’t do that again.
No, getting together and COLLUDING to not pay high salaries is collusion. Individual team restraint is just that.
You got it backwards. Too much for the owners to lose. If the regular season doesn’t start on March 31st the owners will be losing $2 billion per month in revenue. About $67 million per day. Players don’t earn any money in spring training like the owners do. They start earning money in the regular season, so they can’t be losing anything until the season starts. The players earned just 38% of total revenue and they have 2 months of salaries in the bank so to speak. The players won’t be under any pressure until the end of May.
Oh, so you’re the special guy that has access to the team’s books? Where in the world are you finding these numbers?
Attendance is much lower in the early months, so the owners lose much less, if anything at all. Hence, the owners have the leverage. There’s no set amount being made, so your assertion is ridiculous. Furthermore, the owners own other businesses and profit from team valuation increases, so they have the power. If the season starts late, the players can’t make that lost money back. The amount of lost income starts to make no sense when it doesn’t exceed any gains made in a new CBA.
Get it now?
I doubt I am the only fan who is sick of the direction MLB has been going in for years and could not care less if the season was cancelled if it meant the stupid rule changes, both already implemented and discussed going forward, would disintegrate. I would welcome a new commissioner. Preferably one with a backbone. Manfred is terrible.
I beg to differ. Manfred is not terrible, he’s horrible.
You may have a point. Semantics, and your term is likely more accurate.
He just following orders , he has Owners that keep him employed, like most of us
Yes, he is a patsy. That does not have to be the case, though.
When the commissioner opens his mouth the voice of the owners comes out. If you don’t like what he’s saying, consider the source.
Yeah I am well aware that he is the owners’ b.tch. That is par for the course regarding commissioners of sports. And the reason I name it as a problem. No backbone.
He is the owner’s employee. He is their representative. Expecting him to be anything but a mouthpiece for the owners is totally unrealistic, because that is his actual job. I hear people say they get it, yet when it comes to venting about something the commissioner does, they are quick to blame him and very slow to consider the source.
The commissioner is blameless…got it. He is just a secretary…got it.
No, he’s the CEO of MLB. You’re really only proving my point here and I honestly could have done without that.
You are stating the obvious, BlueSkies_LA. I am saying it is a problem. There is a difference. The commissioner doesn’t have to be a patsy. Yes he answers to the owners, but he also has a job to do, and that does not need to be a simple “yes” man. In my opinion, he should be replaced with someone who can stand up for the league. Obviously, our opinions differ on this issue. I will ask this, however…what do you think a MLB commissioner’s job entails? I am getting the impression that you think it just involves being a mouthpiece for the owners. I am suggesting that position should be something more.
The commissioner’s job entails maximizing ownership profits. It has never been anything more. Any commissioner who has crossed ownership, and it hasn’t happened often (e.g. Faye Vincent) has quickly been handed his walking papers. You can make suggestions about what this position should be all day long, but that won’t change what it is. Ownership has a really sweet deal with the commissioner. He speaks for them, but when fans hate what he says, many don’t see through to the source. So maybe what I am stating is not so obvious to everyone.
Both of you are being accurate. He’s both puppet and patsy. But as CEO he should want to solve this impasse rather than just leaving that up to owner’s lawyers. Some owners just want him as their mouthpiece but that’s not all they pay him for. He needs to be more of a leader for the owners and that means protecting the game that the owners are deeply invested in. I sort of like his comments about caring for the game and fans but he needs walk that talk even if it means pissing off both sides. That is also his job.
Yes, indeed. Both sides are stubborn and obstinate. Of course it’s all about money. That’s the bottom line for most businesses, however baseball has been granted privileges that most business don’t enjoy. Millions of fans are invested in their product. They seem to be ignoring that. The players are also overlooking the fact that the very young players they are invested in will use if they can’t compromise. Wake up!
Young players will lose…
Will lose…
The commissioner represents the owners and the game. Tony Clark represents the players. It’s only an issue when one position doesn’t exist. Think Teachers Union and Students. Who is looking out for the kids… no one.
The last commissioner who tried to work with players and reach a fair compromise was Fay Vincent. Manfred was MLB’s chief negotiator at the time. He and Bud Selig forced Vincent out and Selig was installed first as interim commissioner, then permanent commissioner. Their hard ass tactics led to the 1994 strike- over the issue of a salary cap.
From what I heard, Selig worked well with the players. And it took an act of Congress to deal with Fehr and drug testing.
@acmeants – Actually, young players stand to benefit the most out of this new CBA. Not only are they going to get a substantial raise, a portion of them are going to be eligible for a bonus payment too. There’s no way the payout pool will be $100M to be distributed to the Top 150 pre-Arb players, but it could very well end up being in the $40-$50M range for the top 60-75 players.
The players who are going to be affected the most are the mid-level veterans who produce 0.5 – 1.5 WAR during any given season. The top performing veterans will still get the ridiculous $30M-$35M per year deals but now that the young players will be earning more, it is the mid-level veterans who will be paid less than they have made in the past. Regardless of where the CBT thresholds are set, every team will have its own budget and owners will not exceed that. So if the stars still make the big money and the youngsters are set to make more money, it is the average veteran who is going to take the brunt of difference. We’ll start to see that once the lockout has lifted. These players are going to be offered $1M-$2M+ less per year than they were used to. That will be the next issue to ‘fix’ in the 2026 CBA. At the end of the day, there is only so much money owners are willing to spend. They are just reallocating it to different ‘classes’ of players under this new CBA.
If it makes you feel better to call him a puppet or a patsy, go ahead, but it doesn’t do anything to explain the commissioner’s job. Because in fact they pay him for only the one thing, which is to look after the financial interests of the owners in whatever way they define it. No commissioner has been able to piss off the owners and keep his job. I think a lot of fans are in denial about the commissioner’s role in this impasse. They want to blame him instead of the owners. That might be exactly what the owners want us to believe, but that doesn’t mean we have to play along.
Young players will get paid. The union has a huge fund available to pay players in need. That fund is 20-25% of the total earnings of MLB players depending on the source you read.
Players at the end of their careers will suffer. The 35-40 year old guys that 2022 would have likely been their final season in baseball.
Most of all, the owners will lose. $67 million per day starting on the scheduled opening day.
Minor league players will get paid because they will still play. Its more than they got paid in the past and not as much as they deserve, but they will get paid.
If they voted to join the MLBPA then the union could negotiate for them.
Congress didn’t force the players union to accept drug testing in 2004. They can’t. Only a negotiated change in the CBA can do that.
MLB didn’t ask for drug testing until 2001 and they included survey testing in the 2003 CBA.
Fehr was against players giving away rights without compensation. He was correct in that.
You also have to blame Selig for not asking for drug testing through all those years when he new PED were being used, but fans were coming back to see McGwire, Sosa, and the rest.
Actually, they pretty much did. Did you watch the hearings? I did.
Blue. Blame can be laid on both players and owners, least on the commish, who has little authority on either side. That said, he reps the owners and their interests, it’s ignorant to believe that their interests are to let the product, the game, their investment, decline in value. The CEO of MLB is paid to help with maintaining value. If he doesn’t lead in this regard, which may include sometimes communicating to owners what they don’t always want to hear, then he’s failing in his role. The impasse hurts both sides.
I’m not trying to assign blame, I’m simply pointing out who hires the commissioner who and writes his paychecks. If he fails in his role, as far as his employers are concerned, he will no longer see those paychecks. Last I checked, he was still getting them, which means the people who write them don’t see him as having failed. Capeesh?
BlueSkies: No sir! Here is where you’re wrong. You cannot make observations or statements of fact. You MUST assign blame to one party or the other, that’s it.
I learned this lesson today when I made an observation and went back and forth extensively with someone to find out we are NOT permitted to make statements of observations. Conjecture? Yes. Hyperbole? A must! Observations? No, you shan’t have observations on the MLBTR board, sir! Shame on you 1,000 times.
Blue. Hey I didn’t say you were assigning blame, my comment was in reference to yours stating most folks are blaming the commish beyond reason, which is true they are. But the commish is not as irrelevant as you seem to think.
I’m just joking, Brewer88. You seem like a reasonable dude. I’ve read your posts on here I enjoy reading them. I enjoy talking with BlueSkies too; he’s got some really good takes on things.
Thanks yanks. I also think Blue skies is a very good contributor to MLBTR.
Thanks yanks. I also think Blue skies is a very good contributor to MLBTR, despite the fact he’s a Dodgers guy!
Ha. Thanks I do try very hard to overcome that handicap!
Look at us! Love all the way around. LAD, Brew Crew, & Yankees. If we can do it, those butt holes in negotiations can too. Let’s get a move on people! We got some baseball to play.
I agree players should cancel the season until they get a deal that benefits them because that will benefits us the fans, players made so many concessions the last 2 CBAs and got ya ya nothing back, times up for the owners winning streak
You wouldn’t be here if you didn’t care about the season.
In light of everything else going on in the world today, these rich a-holes look even worse than they are
Prices are out of control and they want to make sure salaries match “inflation”
F off guys, both sides
If I could form a union that has the leverage to demand our pay match inflation, I absolutely would. Just because they make significantly more than me doesn’t mean they’re wrong for doing it.
Do they have the leverage to demand that?
Prices are “out of control” because we have more money and less PRODUCTION than in the past. You are paying more while companies are taking record profits instead of increasing production. That is called price gauging.
How is Heyman always so wrong?
When Boros signs a player Heyman is the first to announce it
Heyman is willing to publish things as favors to MLB and some agents. In return, they give him some breaking scoops. Some argue that compromises journalistic integrity. Boras is famous for inventing interest in his clients that doesn’t really exist.
Just cancel the season
Heyman and MLBN are mouthpieces for Manfred.
Since Rosenthal was fired by MLBN at Manfred’s order, his coverage on the Athletic has been must-read. He no longer has to delicately deliver the news.
Heyman has very good connections to Boros , just because he doesn’t go around bad mouthing MLB doesn’t mean Boros doesn’t want a mouth piece there .Don’t think for 1 sec. Boros is controlling the players side
And the CCP. Its why Atlanta missed the All star game. So proud of Atlanta for sticking it to MLB and winning it all in a year where MLB viciously tried to attack the state.
Atlanta’s voting bill had nothing to do with the CCP…
If you can’t even spell his name, why should anyone even read your opinion about him. Obviously you have not read enough to even know what his name is, let alone how he influences the game.
Heyman has very close connections to Boros and just because he doesn’t go around blasting MLB doesn’t mean Boros doesn’t need a mouth piece there. Boros has his hands all over these negotiations and I would suggest Heyman is probably more in touch than MLBTR
There’s no one named Boros. That sounds like an alien from the planet Omicron Persei 8. It’s Boras, Scott Boras. If you don’t even know the man’s name, how can your opinion be taken seriously?
Bore Ass!
The players ask for the CBT threshold to go from $210M to $245M in one year is ridiculous. But the owners proposal of it only going up $4M to $214M is also out of line with past CBAs. A more realistic starting level and increase pattern would be starting at $218M for 2022, then going up to $220M, $224M, $228M, $232M over the 5 years.
What bugs me the most about the CBT and all the negotiations on it is that it is such low impact overall.
I get the players want to bring the deal back closer to the perceived middle, but at this point dig in on things that are going to impact every player, like the min salary.
Only 4-5 teams flirt with the CBT, raising that min will still only impact 4-5 who are willing to spend. So what the dodgers or yanks will be able to 1 more 20/year player or 2 more 15/year players. But whoop. It helps but it’s not a core economic issue and all this periphery stuff is just keeping them further apart.
Really wish the PA signed off on the mediator
I think the threshold is fine, it’s the penalties that are an issue.
The CBT is the biggest issue, by far. With two teams over the threshold and another six within $10 million but not going over, that means eight of the biggest spending teams in the game are being penalized for paying players.
What was once a “Yankee tax” has become a de facto salary cap, and the proposals to more than double the taxes and add draft penalties will never, ever, ever fly with players.
Given the history of the salary cap, losing the 1994 season, court battles ensuing, the players have invested too much to just let it go. There’s no chance. And the current proposals would make the cap so hard, and the thresholds so low that it would effectively be a harder cap, without anything on the floor to make cheap owners spend. It’s not happening.
The PADRES, who are a small market, revenue sharing receiving team, passed the CBT threshold in 2021.
The Braves, who are either 8th or 9th in total revenue depending on the source you read, had $568 million in revenue in 2021. The Braves could have had a $280 million CBT payroll in 2021. They are one of 6 teams that have more than $500 million in revenue. All 6 could have surpassed $250 million in payroll.
The Yankees, Dodgers, and Cubs are teams that are over $600 million in revenue, so they could have $300 million CBT payrolls.
There are 14 teams in MLB, with a 15th just $10 million behind, that can afford to surpass $214 million in payroll every season without impacting their bottom line. They would still be profitable.
There are other teams, like the small market Padres, that can afford to do ti occasionally.
Of course, there are teams like the Marlins, A’s, and Rays that have revenue that would limit their top end spending to between $125-140 million most seasons. They are the exception, not the rule.
Raising the CBT threshold and lowering penalties, especially escalating penalties for surpassing the threshold in consecutive years. is one of two issues at the very core in these negotiations.
Why would the MLBPA “sign off on” on a mediator when they have nothing to gain from doing that? They can only lose from agreeing to bring in a mediator.
Why is it ridiculous?
Revenue, and profits for the 2 teams that have open books, went up 30% over the last CBA. So why shouldn’t the CBT threshold also go up 30% from the $195 million it was at to start the last CBA?.
The answer is, it should go up to match increases in revenue.
Isn’t Heyman a Boras plant ? Heard there are ten players on the negotiating team. Seven are Boras clients.
I’ll miss fantasy baseball if the season is cancelled.
I’ve heard a few people say that when it comes together it will come together fast. I’m of that opinion as well. Yesterday it looked hopeless, so I don’t know how people can have a different opinion.
I’ve written it numerous times but will do so once more- these a-holes had the ENTIRE month of December to negotiate but decided they didn’t need it as they were confident a deal would get done. Stupid selfish aholes. BOTH sides.
Well that’s what they SAID, not necessarily what they believed. I personally believe the owners have been playing the players all along and plan to goad them into a strike, get the public to turn on the MLBPA, then get a better deal.
Meanwhile the players are steadfast in their belief that the fans will have their backs. But that only goes so far and both sides are playing a dangerous game of chicken, because if significant chunks or the entire season are lost everybody loses. This could be much worse than 1994 and in 2022 with so many other sources of entertainment the game may never get back to where it was. I really hope all of this is bluster and when it really comes down to it both sides have enough sense to hammer something out.
The owners are not going to lift the lockout and allow the players the option to strike. They will reach an agreement in order to end the lockout.
How do players go on strike if they’re being locked out? That like saying “I’m breaking up with you” and the person says “I’m breaking up with you first!”. People ultimately don’t care who is in the wrong, they just want baseball. People will come back as they always do. And the argument that baseball can’t afford this as tv contracts and upper player contracts are as high as ever. People just don’t like admitting they can’t control this situation.
Not stupid at all on the owners part as they have all the leverage. Just because you want something to happen doesn’t make people selfish – it makes you selfish when you have nothing to lose.
Jon Heyman has inside info because of Boros connections so don’t discount so easily, they are probably more accurate than yours
As someone else pointed out in response to another one of your posts, it’s Boras.
League needs to just accept the players deal, the union gave up a lot the last 2 CBAs time for the owners to give up something And stop being so cheap
What a naïve understanding of how negotiations work. Are you ~15? No adult would think that’s how these type of things go.
Cheap? Some players make 40m a year! A person who makes $100k a year which is a good salary that most people don’t make would have to work 400 years to make that much. They also would be working 12 months a year as opposed to 7. Give me a break!
There is one glimmer of hope, that is maybe just wishful thinking on my part.
Five days ago, the biggest obstacles to a deal (in terms of issues) were
– Owners insistence on one percent increase in the CBT thresholds
– Owners proposal to more than double CB tax rates
– Owners proposals to convert minimum salary to a fixed salary
– Owners proposal to have the same minimum salary for five years
AND
– Players demand for two year arbitration
– Players demand for $30 million cut in revenue sharing
Well, the players have withdrawn their proposal on revenue sharing.
Players have reduced from 100% of two year players to 35% for arbitration
Owners have proposed non fixed minimum salaries, increasing over five years
What remains is the owners proposals to make the CBT an even harder de facto salary cap
On February 12, Manfred said:
“The tax rates are status quo. They’re the same rates that are in the expired agreement.
I think one may have a five percent change. But they’re essentially status quo rates.
The only change on the non monetary side is because of the elimination of draft compensation, some of the old penalties wouldn’t work any more because they were keyed off draft compensation and there’s a substitute for what we’re giving up by the elimination of draft compensation. ”
A league spokesman quickly made a statement that the commissioner “mis-spoke”
But why would he make that comment? Did he let the cat out of the bag?
Either the owners drop their CB tax rates and additional penalties, or we are in for a long summer with no baseball, until they drop it.
If that proposal was gone, what is left?
– a gap in minimum salary of $ 775K, and $640K
-a gap in CBT threshold between $ 245 million and $214 million
– a gap in bonus pool between $115 million and $20 million
– a gap between 4 and 7 lottery picks
– a gap between 22% and 35% super two eligibility
– 12 or 14 teams in the playoffs
Those gaps can be closed, but a salary cap will never happen.
Maybe Heyman could ask Boras to buy a better hair piece for him.
Heyman works for MLBN.
They probably already had a deal in place before this all began. They just need the buzz to get people to show up for games with an end of the month “thank God they got it done.” They are just stringing us along. If they keep it up and it happens like last time they will lose so much more than compensation.
I may be in the minority, but I hope this thing drags on and they cancel the entire season.
I agree, because I think both sides have dirty hands in this, and think they should deal with some consequences.
Yes, hope so. I am planning to not watch any games this season either way.
You would not be here discussing this is you were not going to watch games once the season begins.
You have quite a bit of company. Lots of people come here to express their hatred of baseball. That’s the world we live in now, sadly.
Just goes to show that although it is a business, a very big business in fact, that first and foremost its the fans, their interest, their loyalty, their money spent on the product so both sides profit, are an extremely distant third in the process….
As they should be. Do car buyers have a seat at the table when car companies and the auto workers union negotiate?
I really hope your are being purposely obtuse—i dont mean we need a seat at the table–what i mean is that the two sides forget that we are the ones who pay for their business overall—you can argue tv contracts, endorsements, all the other sources of income for the league and its players—but if we, the fans, dont attend games, buy concessions and pay for parking, watch on tv, listen on the radio, buy souvenirs, all the ancillary forms we pay to and for the sport, then there will be no sport–if they continue to antagonize the rabid and even casual fan, there will be a loss of income for both sides–depending on how much they tick us off, it could be a minor or major loss of income–so that is why we are a distant third in the process–not a seat at the table–but the cash cow that supports the whole game
Who’s the obtuse one? Fans always come back – the amount of money circulating in the game is evidence of this. People can piss and moan all they want, but they’ll be back. Emotional arguments are often poor ones.
I really hope your are being purposely obtuse—i dont mean we need a seat at the table–what i mean is that the two sides forget that we are the ones who pay for their business overall—you can argue tv contracts, endorsements, all the other sources of income for the league and its players—but if we, the fans, dont attend games, buy concessions and pay for parking, watch on tv, listen on the radio, buy souvenirs, all the ancillary forms we pay to and for the sport, then there will be no sport–if they continue to antagonize the rabid and even casual fan, there will be a loss of income for both sides–depending on how much they tick us off, it could be a minor or major loss of income—-we dont need a seat at the table, they just need to remember who the cash cow that supports the whole game is
gbs42
Depends, I thing GM workers are a very large percentage of the their car buyers.
Owners don’t want a fair deal, they want their deal.
The same could be said for the MLBPA too. Neither side is going to get a deal that makes them 100% happy; they just need to compromise and share the pain that comes along with doing so.
The players have moved off their initial positions significantly. The owners have not.
Heyman = Manfraud puppet
He’s fine being anyone’s puppet. Manfred’s puppet for false a stories on negotiations. Boras’ puppet for free agent leaks. MLBN’s puppet for pro-MLB, anti-union spin.
lol
Lock the players and owners in a room with pizza and beer and tell them they can’t leave until a deal is done. Have espn and MLB network cover it live with interviews.
Both sides are wrong here and it would be beneficial if there wasn’t so much posturing.
Skinner and krabapple style
No, you would have to hold the pizza and beer, and add a stinky garbage can and a few cockroaches. That might motivate them to get it done and get out of there.
The owners would want 2 toppings and Miller. The players would want 4 toppings and Bud. Never gonna happen….
This is becoming quite a soap opera, and the big losers are the fans who generate the revenue for this business we used to call baseball.
I’ll trust Heyman over MLBTR
Then you made a mistake.
Booooom, L99 on the mic drop!
Okay? It’s “beyond absurd” to think the sides are close and the players “will need to see more than just the incremental changes to the Collective Bargaining Tax” which is exactly what Jon Heyman suggested to help get a deal done? I’m not a J Hey fan but this article is contradicting itself.
It wouldn’t surprise me if Heyman thinks that CBT stands for “Collective Bargaining Tax”. He’s regularly out of touch with reality.
“Collective Bargaining Tax?” What did I miss?
It’s in the article above. LOL
I know, that’s why I asked. I assume it was a brain faert for the Competitive Balance Tax, but I don’t honestly know.
It’s the next proposal’s tax to be collected & distributed to small-markets to enhance competitive balance for teams like the A’s.
Did Heyman say if a mystery team was involved?
Two mystery teams. It’s that kind of story.
Hahahahaha
Jajajajaja
That is a mystery
Ben Nicholson-Smith
@bnicholsonsmith
·
33m
Heard from a person connected to MLB players who called the sentiment that the sides are actually now within striking distance “beyond absurd.”
The voice of reason guy is obviously trolling. It’s somewhat clever but it can’t be worth all the time he’s putting into it. I hope they make a deal so he can get back to his life.
Owners already won long ago with the expanded playoff revenue and also not needing to spend as much on players to “contend.”
The delay also bought an excuse for most of them to not spend this offseason.
At this point it’s about making the PA think it won somehow.
I’ll side with the owners when they stop selling 1 light beer for the price of an entire case.
I wish the MLBPA would include a cap on beer prices in their next offer
I think everyone wants that. That’s why I pregame 2 maybe 3 beers maybe a small meal prior. Not sure if you’ve ever been to coors field but a few years ago, a vendor told my sister and I that they raise the price of a tall boy by $1 only when the cubs come to visit.
let’s write to owners telling them to negotiate in good faith or we are to boycott games.
Yes, you should do that. Explain in your letter why it is that you think they’re not negotiating in good faith. I’m sure they can all use a laugh right now.
not when millions do. of course, bootlickers don’t need to apply.
I just wanna see baseball…:-/
Today at 1:00 pm, the MLB owners and the players union will meet again in Jupiter, hoping to agree to a new CBA and end the lockout before tomorrow’s deadline, so both sides will be together and the players will be happy with the owners.
They could meet ON Jupiter and they still wouldn’t settle. But at least they’d be on Jupiter.
There is no “equality” between the MLBPA and the League.
The Teams own it all, from the entire minor league structure including the contracts with nigh all the guys trying to get to the MLBPA, the training structures, the scouting apparatus, the parks (leases), the entire development process to get the “few” from raw to accomplished.
The Teams ARE the League: they own the parks (or the leases), the selection of who gets to the League, and how long they are there — which isn’t very long for the few who do get there.
The Game is the attraction.
The Stars (100? 200? of 780 on active rosters) boost attendance with the rest hired to play the Game and showcase the Stars.
The Stars deserve Big Salaries but relatively few last more than a decade while the Game goes on.
That the supporting cast should “start” at $750,000 plus benefits for 8 or fewer months, is incredibly generous — they are the winners in the population as more than 99% of Americans make less.
The MLBPA wants a minimum salary of $895K in 2026.
50% of a roster comes and goes while your kids are in high school — do they really deserve to be set for life because they can hit or throw a baseball at a high level for a couple years?
try running a league with scabs and see how long people care to watch or attend! players are the attraction! take a look at how many fans attend orioles, pirates and dbacks!
You missed the point
There was a point? When random words are capitalized, I tend to be dismissive of whatever “point” is trying to be made.
Baseball tried this and it didn’t work. Football tried this, it didn’t work.
This truly is a symbiotic relationship. I realize this and am not pro owner or pro player. Sometimes the players are right, sometimes the owners are.
@Simple, your entire note seems to be based on your personal inferiority and jealousy.
What’s the difference between a vestibule and a portico?
Jill Goodacre met Chandler in an ATM vestibule, while a portico sound too much like a porta-poddy.
Halo, my mind immediately went to the same thing.
I took a vestibule in a portico once
You talking dirty again?
Why do the owners not want CBT at 245 million? Where does the penalty for going over go to? A 245 million CBT cap does not cost owners anything, so why do they want a 215 million cap. Cap penalty is seen to be a penalty for trying to win/ going all in.MLBPA gets 245 million owners to get 14 games play-off would be a fair trade-off.
It goes to revenue sharing, to the other team owners. The entire point of the CBT is to create a disincentive for owners to spend as much on players as they would otherwise.
Because it makes the rich, richer. That’s enough to add an impact player that puts you over top which only a small handful of teams can afford.
BREAK THE UNION!!!
Break The_Voice_Of_No_REASON
But he has a PhD from the University of Phoenix online, lol
The owner controls the baseball now, MLB owns Rawlins which makes the MLB baseball and they have changed the baseball every year since to help owners. More home runs, or fewer owners control it. In 2019 MLB(owners) deaded the baseball during playoff games without telling anyone, why.
The millionaires and billionaires need to come together to issue a statement that neither group really cares about the fan base, which is already seeing decreased numbers due to other issues with Baseball. That, despite the fans are really the ones that are the paying EVERYONE, they really do not care about having a season and are prepared to damage the game even more. They can finger point all they want, but if they wanted to get something done ‘for the good of the game’ they could do so easily.
I have never heard someone go “Well that strike was going on and is over, I gotta check out what all the fuss is about!”
MLB only has 2 or the teams in any division that will try to win in 2022. All of you can look a the division and pick the top 3 teams in each division, the rest have no chance. Some divisions have only two teams. It’s the same teams year after year over the last 10 that have sucked and will continue. Some owners only want to make a lot of money, that there plan. Some teams like the Yankees and, Dodgers make a lot win or lose maybe 1or 2 more. Most teams don’t spend to win so there are more owners that don’t care. They just want to keep costs down and now there are more teams that vote things down and refuse to negotiate with MLB player union.
There are not enough great players fir every team to have 2 or 3
And the players insisting that the tax threshold be raised will make it even worse.
Mainly due to revenue sharing. Most owners aren’t motivated to improve the product on the field because they know they will receive revenue from revenue sharing.
I don’t care if it’s the owners or players fault, can’t we band together and not give them any of our money this year?
The only thing that raising the luxury tax threshold does is guarantee that the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, etc continue to buy up all of the best players and the small market teams continue to fall farther behind.
Attention any company worth a billion dollars, if your cashiers or secretaries or window washers arent banking 7 figures then FU you are garbage. The union says so
Have you ever gone to a business to watch a cashier, secretary, or window washer do their job?
that’s exactly what’s wrong. those people should make more working in factories. billionaires shipped most of factories to china, hence effectively killing middle class. people need well-paying manufacturing jobs not service industries low paying jobs.
Viz, you bring up a great point here, sir.
Actually, only about 20% of those jobs were sent to other countries. Most were lost to automation and artificial intelligence. People need to make adjustments and retrain themselves for jobs like nursing or law enforcement that are in need. Wishing for the good old days to come back doesn’t change the reality of technology is not going away.
F them all. That is all.
I think the owners can put their best offer out there if there is no agreement and ask for a vote of the union membership. They are so far apart that it may be worth trying. I am pretty sure the owners are not bluffing but am not sure how strong the players are on all the pie in the sky stuff they are asking for… Isn’t the minimum wage going up substantially with the new offer ?
The players have narrowed their asks significantly, including off asks the owners would never agree too. The owners, however, have barely budged on any thing.
If you make crazy demands, then back off those crazy demands a little bit, that doesn’t make your ask reasonable. I see that it is an effective strategy by the MLBPA to convince the masses (at least on here) though, so kudos to them for using that strategy.
Keep digging that hole MLB so you fall further behind.
1. NFL
2. NBA
3. MLB
The players are employees. Minimum salary is what the fight usually is in unions these days.
New employees are paid much less than experienced employees that do basically the same thing , strike out, hit a few homers and bat 240… That used to send you to the minors now it gets you 100 million.. The owners are offering a significant increase to lowest paid players. To do that the Lindor’s of the world are going to have to accept that striking out, hit a few homers and bat 240 and still make 30 million is a pretty good deal.
I can’t imagine Amazon employees demanding that Bezos share his profits with them.
In all honesty, you also don’t pay for Amazon employees to entertain you. The ones you do, the contracted movie stars from Amazon movies, get paid an obscene amount of money as do…….every top entertainer.
You don’t pay MLB players to entertain you, either. The teams pay them. I don’t understand what point you’re even trying to make. They’re both employees that are paid to do their jobs, nothing you’ve said has anything to do with tying their pay to profits/revenue.
I’m going to reprint what you wrote to show you how naive it is:
“You don’t pay MLB players to entertain you either. The teams pay them.”
Yes, with whose money does the team pay them and how does said team make that money and why? It is precisely tied to profit and revenue and if I have to explain that to you the conversation is a non-starter because you are waaaaaay behind on this one.
Do you honestly want to double-down on not knowing the difference between sports athletes and Amazon employees getting paid from profit derived as a direct consequence of their performance? Most people aren’t buying an Amazon t-shirt with “Cindy 05” on the back of it, let’s put it that way.
Name a single successful business in which the employees make more money than the owners.
Nor do they in baseball. Nor am I advocating for them to in baseball. That would be socialism. I am ardently opposed to socialism. So, what’s your point?
But if you look at the entertainment industry as a whole, Re top stars are the highest paid individuals of all involved. Look at Hollywood as an example. Or Hockey, NBA, NFL, etc.
Greedy players are killing this game
None of the MLB players deserve the money they are making. Just to mention Lindor as an example, it is shown that they are overpaid. I can name more than 100 “stars” who are not worth the salary they are paid.
Okay, and do the owners deserve billions of dollars and to charge enough that a family has to pay $200 just to go to a game, or more? That’s the problem with judging this in terms of who “deserves” what. It’s all subjective and they deserve whatever we keep paying to watch them.
How do you know that the owners are making billions of dollars? Are you talking about gross income or earnings because they are different things?
Well, ATL just released their public ownership profits for 2021 and it was $104M – profit. That’s from a revenue of over $560. One team, one ownership. There are 29 other teams = billions easily. The NYY alone have revenue of $678M. Their profit is conservatively $250-$300M.
No player is anywhere near these numbers and never will be, gross or net.
What about Tampa, Pittsburgh, Oakland. Not everyone is the Yankees or Dodgers, or even the Braves.
What about them in terms of what? You think there are players that make more than those teams? No. Pittsburg, for example, still made approximately $273M in revenue. Tampa doesn’t even belong in the discussion because they are not a small market and their revenue is higher. But, the Pirates only spent $54M in payroll! So, it’s pretty easy to see they made a tidy profit.
Same for many other teams, but how right? Well, the Pirates were given $118M in revenue sharing, but only spent $54M, the rest goes toward their profit! That’s some good business…
I used the Pirates because they’re consistently among the lowest but they’re interchangeable with other lower income teams too. So yes, LAD & NYY are much higher, but these teams still make nice profits and to say players are making more than owners is not even close to accurate. It’s pure conjecture and hyperbole.
Should read “ consistently among the lowest [revenue]”
And to add @yankeechipper Atlanta’s tv contract is sub-par.
that is cash flow , not profit…. get an accounting 101 book…
Disappointing. For me, with the owners locking the players out and their lack of creative proposals, concessions, and overall urgency is all hubris and negligent. The players were locked out and seem to be doing all the work.
Around here some people have forgotten that MLB is a business. I challenge them to name a single successful business in which the employees make more money than the owners.
I already answered this above. You’ve obviously and conveniently ignored the very premise of entertainment in a capitalist society. Welcome to 2021.
You should maybe take a look at the Trucking industry. Not much different than a bunch of crybaby millionaire ballplayers.
College professors is another industry wherein certain teachers are paid exorbitant amounts of money, some more than their boss, like celebrity law professors. And they have tenure where they can’t be fired for anything, with very few exceptions.
How do some people know that the owners are making billions of dollars? Did the see the books? Are they talking about gross income or earnings because these are different things?
A couple of days ago, Liberty Media announced its 2021 earnings, reporting $568MM in total Braves revenue, $104MM in OIBDA (operating income before debt and amortization) and a $20MM operating income. Lindor made more than that.
and only a fool would believe financial statements of large corporations at face value. that’s why they hire multiple cpa’s and lawyers.
You say that as if franchises across the board are not appreciating in value and baseball revenues are not continuing to rise. Some teams CHOOSE to carry debt and use revenue to you know…. reinvest in their assets. Lindor making more than that is a poor argument.
Players would not be claiming “outrage” if they had trump cards to play. The negotiations are over. We’re entering the “saving face” phase & this may take a while.
There will be no movement until both sides begin to suffer significant financial losses. Until regular season games are canceled, the players have suffered no losses. Soon, costs begin to get real for the players— loss of income, no service time accruing, simply put both current and future earnings are at risk because of the cancellations and no deal. The owners will have massive leverage once regular season games are canceled. This is a labor negotiation, nothing more, nothing less. This will eventually become a simple cost benefit analysis for the negotiating parties and I have a pretty good idea who will determine the costs of no deal are too great and take whatever deal is on the table.
Regular season games should have been canceled already. Spring training needs to be at least five weeks. Then there is the delay in between a deal and spring training.. That is at least six weeks right there. If there is a deal on February 28, the season could only realistically start just before mid April. You won’t have any players complaining about how cold the weather is. I say there is no baseball until some time in May at the earliest.
Have the owners issued any more lies today through Manfred and Heyman?
Dude…RobM = ROB MANFRED.
Mind…..BLOWN
It’s my burner account where I get to show my support for the players and hate for the owners.
hurryupandfigurethisoutthefansaregettingveryannoyed
atabunchofmillionairesfightingwithbillionairesabouttheirsalaries
The battle between two greedy parties continues……..
What proposals in the MLBPA current position will inevitably crack the armor of ownership into the voting blocks of the “big-market & small-market’ teams which the union can then exploit into substantial CBA gains? Oh Im’ sorry, it appears players (& their leadership) intend to overcome a unified ownership with righteous indignation & outrage.. Good luck with that.