Over the past couple weeks, Major League Baseball and the MLB Players Association have returned to the negotiating table on core economics issues. They’ve been the first notable collective bargaining discussions since MLB instituted a lockout early on December 2. Yet fans’ hopes that talks might quickly thereafter lead to a resolution of the work stoppage that’s soon to enter its third month are unlikely to be realized.
As Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich of The Athletic explained this afternoon, the sides remain divided on myriad key issues. According to Rosenthal and Drellich, the possibility of Spring Training commencing as originally scheduled “is clearly in jeopardy.” Of more import to most is the threat of a delayed start to the regular season. Multiple reports over the course of the lockout have suggested March 1 could serve as a soft deadline for a new CBA to be in place if the season is to open on the currently-slated March 31. With the calendar flipping to February in a few hours, there’ll need be rapid progress over the coming month.
According to Rosenthal and Drellich, the MLBPA views the proposals thus far made by MLB as less favorable to players than were the terms of the 2016-21 CBA. That’s an ominous development. The players union entered this round of collective bargaining talks less than enamored with that CBA and in search of a few significant changes (i.e. dramatically expanded luxury tax thresholds, a path to free agency after five years of service, a $100MM cut to revenue sharing), some of which it has since stopped pursuing.
Nevertheless, it’s not particularly surprising to hear of the union’s ongoing displeasure with negotiations given some players’ public comments on the matter. For instance, Giants player representative Austin Slater told Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle last week that he considered MLB’s most recent economics proposal “disingenuous” and “a smokescreen,” although he did characterize that set of talks as more “professional” than prior meetings had been.
Unsurprisingly, The Athletic writes that MLB believes it has made player-friendly concessions. The league acquiesced to a union proposal for a salary pool to award exceptional performers who haven’t yet reached arbitration eligibility — at least in concept. Yet there’s a massive separation in the amount of money each side would like to see involved. The union proposed the creation of a $105MM pool; MLB offered to set aside $10MM. And as Rosenthal and Drellich explain, the gap is actually larger than those numbers might suggest since the parties continue to haggle about the number of players who should qualify for arbitration.
Throughout negotiations, the MLBPA has pushed for arbitration eligibility after two years of service time. The league has considered that a non-starter, preferring to keep the previous system in place. Under that setup, most players required three years of service to reach arbitration, while a certain subset of players with between two and three years — those in the top 22% of service among their class — also qualified through the Super Two provision.
The union’s proposed $105MM pool for pre-arb players, then, would only be divided among players with less than two years of MLB service, with anyone in the 2+ service bucket reaching arbitration. MLB’s $10MM counteroffer was tied to the previous arbitration setup, to be divided among players with less than three years of service (aside from Super Two qualifiers). So, not only is the union seeking a significantly larger sum than MLB was willing to offer, the PA’s vision was to divide that money among a comparatively smaller group of players than MLB has in mind. (According to Rosenthal and Drellich, MLB is also unwilling to expand the number of players in the 2-3 year service bucket who could qualify as a Super Two in addition to its steadfast opposition to universal two-year arbitration).
As MLBTR has covered in recent weeks, numerous gaps between the parties persist. MLB and the MLBPA have differing goals on such topics as playoff expansion, an international draft (which Rosenthal and Drellich write the union is unlikely to agree to “unless it is part of a significant tradeoff”), the competitive balance tax, the league minimum salary, revenue sharing and the amateur draft order. That they’ve resumed discussions of late is a welcome development, but they remain far apart on enough important topics there doesn’t appear to be an imminently forthcoming resolution. Barring rapid progress, the specter of lost gameplay seems to loom larger than ever. The parties’ next set of economics discussions is slated for tomorrow, reports Jeff Passan of ESPN (on Twitter).
Dusty Baker's tooth pick.
At the end of the day nobody on both sides are going to feel like they won anything when this is said and done
knuck2
which usually means they’ve worked out a fair agreement
Deadguy
I just keep hearing Napoleon Dynamyte “idiot!”
Dusty Baker's tooth pick.
Yeah probably so. Can you imagine the FA activity after the new CBA gets done? It’s safe to say that we’ll have a flurry of signings even crazier then the last week before lockdown!
smuzqwpdmx
And that flurry will be the biggest win for the owners. Salaries negotiated in a hurry are inevitably lower, less time to play teams against each other or invent mystery team bids.
deweybelongsinthehall
Reminds me of a current case I’m involved in where there have been five formal mediation sessions which is what I would character each meeting as even if there wasn’t a formal neutral party involved. In my case, the pressure will come if and when the local court system is able to to handle a trial. None of the involved parties really want a trial but without the court pressuring us, the leveraging banter continues. The could advised last summer the case was number 1 and would be tried in October, then January and now mid March. Due to the need to schedule expert testimony, the court is to tell us by 02/15 if the March date will also be adjourned. We have a further mediation set for the end of February and if the trial is a go, I’m guessing it will then be settled. Here, if each side truly wants to avoid a start delay, 03/01 seems like that real date for an agreement to be reached. Just my take.
SoCalBrave
@smuz that’s not necessarily the case. Teams could overpay for players when there’s a short window for negotiations, specially for those players in high demand
HalosHeavenJJ
the best deals are always the ones in which both sides feel they left a little something on the table.
The Oregonian
The money pie they’re arguing over is going to be a lot smaller if they let this cost regular season games. This situation is like two people on the Titanic arguing over who should pay for dinner.
Deadguy
The damage is already done, these fools already had 2 years! 2 years!
August 2021 this article would already have 500 responses. Where’d everybody go?
kingbum
It’s going into February, casual fans that check in just on occasion are just beginning to think about baseball. I think come March you gonna hear fans complaining. Right now they are busy with the Super Bowl and don’t have this on their radar yet.
rememberthecoop
Or, more to what may be Hippy’s point, people have apathy and that’s even worse than anger.
Halo11Fan
You are right Kingbum. Fans really won’t care until after the Super Bowl. If this gets resolved by the end of February, the start of Spring Training will coincide with mass signings and virtually all baseball fans will be in hog heaven.
The owners and the players have another month to go before this actually becomes an issue.
Randy Red Sox
or simply just don’t care.
A'sfaninLondonUK
@the oregonian
I like the analogy but it is incorrect. The (lobster thermidor is mine by the way) ship doesn’t have to inevitably hit the iceberg. I’m sure both sides genuinely believe they have the game’s best interests at heart, but there is no game without the players and no game without the owners signing the cheques.
Average player wages have fallen moderately but continually since 2016 (regardless of Covid) and any union worth it’s dues isn’t going to let that scenario repeat itself.
If your wage had fallen over a five year span what would your response be to that? I’m guessing it wouldn’t be “ooh never mind I’ll have a short back and sides ready for spring training”?
mister guy
yeah except the fact that if this eats into the season the owners will claim that they are poorer because of the loss of games and loss of revenue due to negotiations.
vtbaseball
There will always be a game without the owners. It’s just the players won’t be making millions of dollars if any at all.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
How in the world would you suggest to have teams that don’t have owners? Lol
hiflew
What people don’t think of is that with baseball both sides are rich. But without baseball, the owners are still rich. Without baseball, most players are high school grads with no real job skills and would probably be working selling cars or in some factory. The owners might lose some revenue, but they still have whatever business got them the money to buy a team in the first place. They are not going to really miss MLB money that much. At least not as much as the average player.
JoeBrady
Average player wages have fallen moderately but continually since 2016
==========================================
Not according to the AP.
“Going back to 2016, the average has increased just 1% over four offseasons, an average annual rise of 0.25%. The average went up 27% in the four years ending in 2012 and 9% in the four years through 2008.”
So the salaries did rise, albeit very marginally, and they score a 36% increase over the previous 8 years.
apnews.com/article/anthony-rendon-new-york-yankees…
Patrick OKennedy
The average salary was 4.45 million in 2017, the first year of the last CBA. It declined each year since, with the rules of that CBA in effect.
The median salary declined over 30 percent, due to large numbers of veteran players being replaced by minimum salaried players. Those at the top of the pay scale got even richer.
Every team that was above the tax threshold in 2016 got under it within two years, including the Yankees and Dodgers. It’s effectively a defacto salary cap.
Seven teams were within $4 million of the threshold in 2021, without going over. At the same time, the number of teams with opening day payrolls under $85 million has increased to 17 teams
Halo11Fan
You can’t judge this on average salary, you need to judge it on total salary. More players are playing now than ever before.
giantsphan12
@Halo, agreed. Cole’s, Scherzer’s, Mookie’s and Bryce’s salaries greater obscure what the “average” player makes. And (though I can’t find my reference) I read a few weeks ago that only “like” 35% of players ever last long enough to make it to FA. So for the “average” they don’t make a lot of money. I am VERy much in support of the union trying to get players paid younger
Bobby boy
Good leg work to shine light on what is really taking place.
Thomas E Snyder
But are those numbers adjusted for inflation?
giantsphan12
@bobby, oh geez! Fair enough. You made me laugh.
bjupton100
It’s disingenuous to point out average player salaries decreased over 5 years without mentioning that it had gone out of control the previous 5 years. No joke. I wouldn’t pay Simmons 10 times more than some defensive whizz who is 12 years younger either. That’s who is losing money, the veteran whose bat isn’t great. Pitchers are still getting paid Wacha, Archer will get a couple million plus incentives somewhere.
Fever Pitch Guy
Oregano – Lost regular season games will mean NOTHING to most fans until it goes into June. Many fans are fickle, dramatic and emotional. They may say “I’m done with baseball forever” but I guarantee they’ll be back following the sport … especially if their team is in contention.
I’ve lived through enough MLB labor disputes with games lost to know the fans will come back. They ALWAYS come back, even after 1994 when the season ended in August and there was no postseason.
Owners are doing exactly what I said they’d do, drag this out and force the union’s hand by losing meaningless early season games. They are billionaires who made a fortune through shrewd business decisions. Who will suffer more if there’s no games in April? Absolutely the players, and they are more likely to give in to the owner’s demands. Because owners are set for life, they don’t need the small profit gained from early season games.
But many players have a very narrow window to earn big money as an athlete. Their playing days, and therefore big paydays, are generally over in their mid-30’s. Owners can continue making big money into their 80’s and 90’s. There’s the difference. Owners will fare better, as always.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
While I may be following baseball the greed on both sides have caused me to take a spend no money on MLB whatsoever approach. I don’t buy MLBtv no cable and I haven’t bought any apparel whatsoever in a few years. This current situation makes me even less enthused. I suspect many fans like me that have decided enough is enough and just watch the scores live on their smartphones or catch a game on the local bars tv.
Randy Red Sox
i totally agree. i did not renew my MLB TV and will not again this yr either. Our cable TV gets every Blue Jays game and usually 1-3 other games/wk. That is plenty enough for me. STRIKE all year for all i care.
JoeBrady
I’m just the opposite. I canceled my subscription last year to protest moving the game to an apartheid city instead of Atlanta. I’ll renew this year.
jmchale40
Be strong Joe. Don’t give in.
elmedius
..yeah, after 94…. the fans came back naturally. Early bets on who they juice this time?
Fever Pitch Guy
The fans also came back after ’72, ’81 and ’90.
Fever Pitch Guy
Roids became very common in the 80’s long before 1994. But sure, MLB looked the other way. It benefited too much from the homeruns to put a stop to it.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
You mean the people who still actually care about baseball but are just angry about it will come back.
Because the % of Americans who care about baseball is at an all time low and only getting lower.
The absolute vast majority are watching Netflix or YouTube or TikTok and don’t know or care that baseball is on strike.
If Clark and Manfred lose sight of that, they will steer right into the iceberg.
dasit
if my son and his friends and the rest of the kids at his school are any indication, you’re right
Fever Pitch Guy
josh – Yes that’s exactly what I mean, the real baseball fans.
Sure baseball’s popularity has decreased over the years. Younger people consider it an “old person’s sport”. It’s dropped from America’s favorite sport to third-favorite behind football and basketball.
A prolonged labor dispute will not make it any less popular than it already is. You can’t lose something you never had.
Joeyjoejoe
Fever Pitch – Respectfully disagree, and here’s the thought:
You are right that casual fans will always be casual fans. And if this drives away a few casual fans, they’ll come back toward the end of the season when playoffs hit.
I am not a casual fan. I’ve been a die hard fan since I was a kid. But the sport is slowly losing me. I am coming into this season with a general disinterest and this dispute and seemingly lack of urgency to resolve it makes me feel like neither side cares to come to a resolution. My apathy grows.
Thomas E Snyder
Who is currently in 4th place?
Bobby boy
How strong this union actually is, will be the tale of the tape.
User 2079935927
I heard dinner was inclusive on the old gal before she went down.
sfes
The MLB owners should be watching the last 2 weeks of the NFL crapping their pants. As if the gap between the two sports isn’t big enough all ready. The sport almost didn’t survive 94. I was a kid buying baseball cards and my card and comic shop guy ended up almost giving up on baseball memorabilia.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
@sfes. I grew up living in or around Lincoln Nebraska where there are estimated to be around 300,000 residents. Around 20 years ago there were several sports cards shops. Now there is really only one (Wes’s Baseball Cards) that I highly recommend even though I haven’t been there for several years. I still have thousands of cards and hundred of unopened packs as well as some sealed sets. Sadly they are mostly late 80’s to early 90’s. Although I have bought some older cards over the years. MLB is dying they are losing the younger fans and the older ones are getting fed up. Maybe drop the ticket and concession prices it’s getting harder to take a family to a game. Especially with this inflation.
JoeBrady
MLB is dying
=====================
According to the players, revenue is thru the roof..
pcwizblue
Revenue is thru the roof because we the fans are paying thru the roof. We should actually be on strike.
The fans have to unite and boycott how much they are charging us. They would both be in trouble without us.
jimmyz
I think as a symbolic gesture to MLB that a nationwide boycott of opening day should occur whenever opening day actually comes. It would be nice to have thousands show up to MLB stadiums on the day(s) that each team’s home opener was originally scheduled in conjunction with an opening day boycott and have an all day waffle ball tournament in the parking lots but that’s probably too much to ask. And yes, I assume that the season being delayed (at the least) is a foregone conclusion at this point.
sfes
I agree but unfortunately it’s not easy to get Americans together to boycott an issue with all of us United on one side, and even the protests we do get organized are impossible to get going unless we’re carrying assault weapons or burning places down…
JoeBrady
We should actually be on strike.
===============================
Why should I go on strike. I like the game and consider it affordable. The price of the on-line package is really cheap, imo.
rond-2
No need to go to MLB games, the Indy leagues offer good baseball at affordable prices.
JoeBrady
I would definitely go to a minor league game if there was a team near me. I went when I was in LV. It was cheap and high quality. And it so cool driving up to the stadium, paying a few $$$ to park, and not have to be concerned about getting out. Terrific value.
sfes
@JoeBrady I absolutely on the Minor league games. I’ve been to a few myself and the ones that stick out the most are when I went to a St Paul Saints game and a San Jose Giants game. They were an actual blast and really knew how to show the fans a great time. Dollar beer night…? lol that was awesome even though I was a kid. The whole thing was a blast.
kje76
Have a tournament in the paid parking lots? Isn’t that paying the owners for the right to boycott the stadium?
Sid Bream Speed Demon
Apples, meet oranges.
Highest IQ
Lol add games to playoffs while loosing a great portion of this season.
sfes
How exactly would a season be loosened? Does it need a tightening? lol
Sadler
Making a bad deal for short term gain isn’t worth it if it induces long term pain.
ruckus727
Both sides need to give a ton. Both sides are too greedy and ultimately the every day fan who goes the games and watches games on TV and buys the apparel and whatnot end up paying for it.
atomicfront
With TV deals that are in place they don’t care whether you watch or not.
FrankRoo
I’d assume the contracts would be pretty clear that if no game broadcast = no payment. No advertisement broadcast = no payment.
Fever Pitch Guy
But Roo, ratings are always poor early in the season. Many baseball fans also follow the NBA and/or the NHL. When baseball games go head-to-head against NHL or NBA, it’s the baseball games that lose out.
PiratesFan1981
Even with TV deals, they still need viewers. If owners and players keep bulking, they won’t have any fans to tune in on their stations after the new CBA is struck. Both parties are going about this CBA wrongfully. It’s just a pissing match between the two and only hurts them in the long run.
johnrealtime
How should the players have gone about negotiations then?
stymeedone
Players have the upper hand when a strike threatens the playoffs. That’s where the owners make their money.
Patrick OKennedy
Players should make it crystal clear that if any regular season games are canceled, there will be no expanded playoffs.
User 4245925809
TV in ST is retreads and kids halfway thru.. Owners “could” go as normal and resume biz as usual with everyone who wants to to report to camp for workouts.. Kids, as in MiLB guys show generally a bit later, but teams could get enough in to have a camp, JUST for TV ST games and NOT regular MLB season, then have another, or shorter ST for players if this thing gets more drawn out.
jimmyz
Until the teams have to renegotiate those tv deals when they expire.
roc8804
What do you think TV deals are based off of? lol. They already play playoff games on weekday afternoons sandwiched between office reruns. Popularity is plummeting because no league is more out of touch with their fans. Regular season games lost are going to be way more detrimental to the league than they think it will be.
bigjonliljon
True. So stop supporting with your money. That’s the only way either side will feel pressure
VicM
millionaires vs. billionaires and the fans stuck out in the cold
A Seal
Hurry up and get a deal done
tigerdoc616
An agreement may not be imminent, but an agreement can come together quickly, if and when both sides want it to. Since nothing is a stake at this juncture, neither side fees any pressure. So we wait.
fred-3
Everyone should’ve seen this coming. The MLBPA under Tony Clark is a joke of its former self and the owners can see that.
baseballhistory
Tony Clark is incompetent leading the players union. He isn’t smart enough to fully understand what is possible to obtain from the owners. Unless he is removed, there will not be an agreement anytime soon. This could easily go into May, and maybe even longer.
IACub
Tony Clark isn’t leading negotions for MLBPA this time around
For Love of the Game
Don’t let pesky things like facts get in the way of a good rant!
nukeg
I agree. With Tom Bradys retirement announcement and footballs unreal playoffs, baseball could not have chosen a worse time – or a worse way – to handle this.
What is absolutely laughable is that Rob Manfred has been laser focused on speeding up the game to make it more engaging to the current generations and this labor strife is absolutely killing the league. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot with a knife in your back…..
BirdieMan
Don’t care which side feels like they won or lost. There’s plenty of money for both sides to get fat. Get it done, and get on the field.
atomicfront
There should be a salary cap and a salary floor. If you play 1 game in a year it should count as a year of service time. Lottery for draft and small market teams should have higher chance of winning.
Deleted Userr
1 game counts as a year would just mean teams stop calling up prospects in September. Except the GM’s like Preller, Friedman, Schmidt and Mozeliak who don’t care about service time.
smuzqwpdmx
The elimination of expanded rosters in September has already killed the September call-up.
Thomas E Snyder
When I was young they usually called up only one or two players in September.
DODGER JR
Bye Bye Baseball!!!!!! The ratings are already in the toilet and attendance for about 75% of the league is down. See if the $$$$ Is there in the next 5 years.
The Oregonian
Yep, all this short-sighted arguing over who makes more money next year. When cable deals start expiring there’s going to be a lot less money in the sport, and then sadly labor negotiations will be even more contentious until baseball dies altogether.
Thornton Mellon
If the regular season is affected as far as regular fans are concerned…MLB should look down past the water skis they are wearing at the sharks they would be jumping over.
In 1994 the economy was doing really well and the labor idiocy still had a big impact. In 2022 the economy is a mess and no one has any sympathy for either side.
atomicfront
Owners make most of their money in post season. April is low attendance month anyway.
A'sfaninLondonUK
atomicfront above.
Nonsensical statement. 10 teams qualify for post season, two are one and done. So eight owners (as opposed to 22 others) might make most of their money in the post season. From no more than one guaranteed post season home game. As opposed to the other 81 home games. Do the maths very slowly please.
And whilst April is a slow month – what’s the fall out going to be when fans miss their home season opener?
Please pass the bong and the sedatives, I’m off to bark at clouds….
sfes
Don’t all owners get a share of playoff money?
Fever Pitch Guy
A’s Fan – That’s pure rubbish.
Why would fans miss their team’s home opener? You do understand the home opener is called that because it’s the first home game of the season. How can there be a season without a first home game? Lay off the Guinness man, it’s not good for you.
And to your other comment that only 8 owners care about the postseason I say bollocks! Every year starts with around 22 teams that are capable of making the postseason. This isn’t Euro Football where the same few teams are at the top year after year. Blimey you’ve a lot to learn.
Fever Pitch Guy
A’s Fan – That’s pure rubbish.
Why would fans miss their team’s home opener? You do understand the home opener is called that because it’s the first home game of the season. How can there be a season without a first home game? Lay off the Guinness man, it’s not good for you.
And to your other comment that only 8 owners care about the postseason, that’s absurd. Every year starts with around 22 teams that are capable of making the postseason. This isn’t Euro Football where the same bloody teams are at the top year after year. Blimey you’ve a lot to learn.
JoeBrady
Every year starts with around 22 teams that are capable of making the postseason.
=============================
I think some posters just write things to support their side. At the trade deadline last year, 10 of the 15 AL teams were .500 or better. It was 5 of 15 in the NL, and Atlanta, which was only .491 at the time, won the WS. Even Philly, who was at .490, stayed in until the final week.
I don’t know why it is not more obvious, but this is the way it works in every sport, even down to the local 1st grade team. There will always be better run teams and worse run teams.
A'sfaninLondonUK
@ the repetitive fever pitch above
Oooh – “lay off the guinness man, it’s not good for you.” Thank you for the Irish laden cliche, you must be Bostonian. Call me the dyed in the wool traditionalist but I’ve always associated opening day with around about April 1st. Or the maybe the 8th if you’re on the road 1st week. Not the 14th June.
Just me then.
Could you (really really slowly) read my post back again. I’ve not stated only eight of thirty owners care about post season, I’ve stated only eight of thirty owners get to care about post season proper, because only eight of them get there. And only four of those are guaranteed more than one post season home game. So as the original poster suggested “owners make most of their money in the post season” is horse manure.
The point I was making (and it seems to have eluded you with your full on poteen based cranial embalming fluid) is that regardless of the 22 that want to be in the post season proper about eight can be. And only the division winners are guaranteed more than one home game.
Yours with stout based nonsensicalness
Arthur Guinness
Thornton Mellon
atomicfront – the ones who make the later rounds of the postseason may. For about 20 teams, the most money they make is on their home opener and it may be the only game they sell out all year in some cases (it used to be that way for years for some teams). The Orioles, for example, may draw 46,000 fans on Opening Day and then that’s 5 or 6 night games’ worth by June.
stymeedone
@TMellon
Don’t know what country you’re in, but in the USA, the economy and the stock market are booming and unemployment is low. I do agree that there is no sympathy for either side, though.
nukeg
Is today Opposite Day? Yes the unemployment rate is recovering, but data is showing it’s with lower paying service labor. And the annual inflation rate for the US is 7.0% for the 12 months ended December 2021 — the highest since June 1982.
Gas prices are extremely high (esp here in CA) and the supply chain shortage is wreaking havoc on prices across the board.
Thornton Mellon
stymeedone – Seriously? The labor participation rate is at 60%, an all time low, so there are still millions more out of work than were in 2019. The unemployment rate does not take into account people not actively looking for work….including those who have given up.
Prices are rising at 7% per year – faster than the past 40 years. The stock markets entered correction territory this week and now the powers that be are talking about price controls! Its like no one learned anything from what NOT to do from the stagflation of the 1970s. Price controls are some of the absolute worst things you can do because the last entity with the ability to find the right price for anything is the federal government.
This is not a political post, this is basic economics. Take a look at MLB attendance in the 70s as well (I wouldn’t mind bullpen carts again though). The one thing that we can all be sure will come out of the labor strife will be higher prices for fans.
JoeBrady
The labor participation is partially impacted by the stock market. The S&P 500 has roughly doubled over the past 5 years. There are no small amount of people that thought they’d retire when they had $x in their 401k, and now hae $2x in the 401k. Those folks are leaving early.
And within the same cohort, you have people that are afraid of Covid and retiring.
And on the other end, you have kids with some flexibility to make demands, and are holding out for better fits.
I’m not surprised the participation rate is low.
IRT inflation, our government is nuts. They are handing out checks to everyone. I have no problem helping people, but people with no discernible need are getting checks.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
@joe. I wish they never did the stimulus checks. I used mine to buy some very nice firearms since I figured that’s what half the corrupt government officials did NOT want me to use it on.
savoyspecial
Just get the deal done! The game will suffer if the negotiations start to cost regular season games! It’s so frustrating following this! MLB & MLBPA are lucky to have the best game in the world. Start appreciating your positions and get a deal done!
bigjonliljon
Not so sure about that. A good game of dodge ball can be titillating
rememberthecoop
titillating hee hee
Nobaseball20
Both sides need to get down and agree……they did nothing for months then
The ‘lockout’. Maybe the fans ( the folks who buy the tickets, hats, jerseys, beer,
And hotdogs), will vote too by not buying all those things….
Miles1002
Looks like we’re headed to a suspended Spring Training and at this point, a delayed start to the season. I’m pretty sure we all saw this coming, and nobody is surprised.
We’re just disappointed that both sides didn’t seem to even try. No talks in December except a 15-minute shouting match. And only 2 meetings in January.
I know it takes time to write all this up but still, get it done.
VonPurpleHayes
@Miles agreed. I’m pretty fed up. If we get a significantly shortened season it’s time for me to just leave baseball behind, not that the owners or players would care at all. They’ll still get their money.
rememberthecoop
Meanwhile, on the heels of the 2020 pandemic-shortened season, a reduced ST likely means even more arm injuries for pitchers.
baseballhistory
The players bear the greatest level of responsibility here. They are making unrealistic demands, that have no chance of happening. As long as Tony Clark runs the negotiations, on the players behalf, it will be a disaster.
bronxbombers
Tony Clark is not negotiating they brought in Meyer for that very reason.
Thomas E Snyder
We need mandatory arbitration where on a date certain if there is no agreement then it will go to arbitration. The parties would then make their final offer and the arbitrator(s) should be required to accept one of the two final offers.
terry g
This will take a lot more time than some thought. The two sides are so far apart.
lookouts
Honestly, the only reason I even watch baseball anymore is because I play in a couple of computer baseball leagues. And I can certainly do withoout them. Hawkeye Pierce said the three basic human emotions are greed, fear, and greed and these people are showing no fear that their greed will kill their sport.
30 Parks
Neither side is a sympathetic character. Tone deaf and closing-in on careless.
HankHill
It’s a beautiful world we live in, a sweet, romantic place
Rsk3228
I tell you what…
HankHill
Bwaaaaah!
theodore glass
If this keeps on going. Baseball would be dead for me sooner rather than later.
kreckert
None of these people care about the sport. Not one.
allweatherfan
If the regular season gets delayed I’m going to try and make it through whatever they have of a season without watching a single game, ween myself. I’ve done it with other sports but I thought baseball would always have a place. But here we are.
thickiedon
So many people struggling to make it in this current climate and then there’s this…
Twinsfan79
Both sides are going to need more than a McGwire and Sosa to recover if season is delayed. Manfred = joke. Clark = joke.
bbatardo
Losing games is going to cost both the players and owners a lot more money than they are squabbling over right now.
Doug Bell
Players should start their own league. Enough of this garbage. They’re what makes the MLB valuable, not the owners.
rememberthecoop
I get your point that the players are who we watch. We certainly don’t watch baseball for the owners. That said, you’re mistaken if you think the owners aren’t critical. Look, you can find replacement players but replacement billionaires to write the checks are a helluva lot harder to find. The players have guaranteed contracts. It’s the owners who take on all the risk. And while it’s true that the owners rake in huge profits when they sell, the year over year revenue isn’t enough to find billionaires begging to buy baseball teams.
Doug Bell
It’s not like new owners and new stadiums can’t be found. Many cities are dying for top flight baseball and there are always tons of investors. All it takes is for the players to rip the band aid off and they’re free.
And in a new league they can set more favorable terms. The money may be less at first, but they theoretically could get a bigger chunk and without stars to stock the MLB they should have a relatively easy path to success.
Tomahawk Takeover
Where you gonna get all that money and real estate for all those stadiums and parking? You think vendors are just gonna pop up to sell food and merchandise. Will there even be merchandise? Will sponsors be willing to take the big financial risks? Will fans still care enough to follow a new league? You have severely underestimated how the real world operates.
rememberthecoop
Sure, there mY be a few cities who could pull it off but overall, it’s just not as easy as you make it sound. The owners can find lots of young guys who’d love to play for minimum wage and thea who excel would.be your stars. I’m telling you, without the owners there is no MLB. People need to wake up. And I sure as hell don’t mean “woke”
rememberthecoop
Sure, there mY be a few cities who could pull it off but overall, it’s just not as easy as you make it sound. The owners can find lots of young guys who’d love to play for minimum wage and thea who excel would.be your stars. I’m telling you, without the owners there is no MLB.
Doug Bell
As I wrote before, people follow baseball for the players. If they switched to a new league em masse, it would be a formidable league.
As for money and sponsors, you realize this is America right? People would kill to jump into a new league with top flight players.
As for vendors, my lord, where will they find people to sell hot dogs? It’s impossible! Haha
Doug Bell
It won’t be easy. Success isn’t guaranteed. But long term, it would arguably be more beneficial to the players. They’d have a much bigger stake in the league than they do now. But also more risk for sure.
Doug Bell
If you could watch the Atlanta Braves with a team of AA and semipro replacement players or the new Atlanta Baseball Club with all of the stars from the Braves, I believe most fans would choose the team with the stars. As I wrote, the fans identify with the players. That’s what it’s all about.
BlueSkies_LA
I look forward to the day when the owners trot out on the field in their Italian loafers and we can watch them take phone calls from their investment bankers. Won’t that be fun!
Doug Bell
Now hitting cleanup and batting .372 in municipal bonds, it’s Hal Steinbrenner Jr!
JoeBrady
Doug Bell
As I wrote before, people follow baseball for the players.
===================================
I don’t think so. I root for the Red Sox. Betts was a great player, but now he’s on the Dodgers. Thank you for your contributions, but I pay no attention to him now.
Is there even a single fan in here that would change their team allegiance because one of their players left as a FA?
rond-2
Not only the stars but the players that grind it out to make a living and have a passion for the sport. You recognize those players as they may not have all the talent in the world, but are the ones that work the count, take a ball off the shoulder to get on base, lay out to make a catch and those that stay on the mound cause the bullpen needs a rest.
Doug Bell
Obviously players come and go. I’m talking about the entire roster shifting to a new team in a new league. You really wouldn’t care? You’d watch lesser quality ball because you like the Red Sox logo?
jimmyz
How do you know the year to year revenue isn’t enough if not a single MLB franchises has ever publicly disclosed their annual finances?
66TheNumberOfTheBest
After the players start their own league, who decides how much each player gets paid?
Will they all make the same? If not, who decides? And how?
Doug Bell
Well, it’s all a theory but the players and new owners would have to set up a mutually agreeable structure. Players will have more leverage then they do now.
Patrick OKennedy
Any given owner can be replaced by another person, and with some knowledge of the game, the team would make money. They’d have to screw it up pretty badly to lose money. If he finds good baseball people to run the front office, they can be successful.
The same can not be said for players. MLB rosters are full of elite athletes that play the game better than anyone in the world. Owners just have to be filthy rich and connected enough to buy a team. Owners in general are needed, but no particular owner is essential to the game.
48-team MLB
@Doug Bell
Start with these six teams…
Albuquerque Desert Dogs
New Orleans Gators
Oklahoma City Red Wolves
Omaha Dragons
San Antonio Scorpions
Wichita Warlocks
Doug Bell
There’s so many good cities to start in. Nashville, Charlotte, Austin, Portland and tons more. But in a league like this, they’d have to go big in existing MLB towns!
ChicksDigTheLongBaII
The day after the World Series, I managed to grab three box seats for Opening Day at Truist Park so I could see the Braves get their rings. Absolute bucket list thing for me, with luckily perfect timing where I could get off work to see it. If I can’t go because of this lockout, I am going to be disappointed beyond words.
TomToms
Both sides have to realize that as they argue over generational wealth, most not all, of us are dumbfounded to how either side can’t realize that. I just want baseball back and don’t care who “wins”. Get back to reality all of you. You have a great thing going. Please keep it that way. Cmon!
MC Tim C
Since the two sides are still far apart (apparently) maybe they should start talking everyday and make a genuine effort to get this resolved instead of letting weeks go by doing absolutely nothing.
ChrisEnvy76
Much like tv shows that I used to watch when they aired, then they kept missing a week or two here or there and it killed the momentum of the show for me. I couldn’t count on it to be there. If baseball is delayed and I can’t count on it either. It will also kill the momentum and die off for many people. They are arguing over players at the bottom, who are still making more than any of us could hope to, even as CEO’s of some smaller companies. This is absurd. It’s making me really sad to think about life without baseball.
sfes
I agree. It’s depressing.
Mickey Steverman
MLB and the MLBPA are so stupid they should’ve known this was goi by to be slow and just agreed to a one year extension of the previous CBA to buy time and not jeopardize the 2022 season. Bryce Harper mentioned this as a possibility in an interview but it never really got any attention. Now it’s most definitely going to drag on into spring training at the very least and then we’re going to end up with some over-saturated 14-team playoff field that no one wants.
rememberthecoop
If that had happened they wouldn’t even be talking right now. All that would have amounted to is kicking the can down the road.
rhswanzey
Why don’t they just increase ticket prices to between $8000 and $14000 – that way, there will be found money for both sides to get an agreement without losing any of the financial impact each is demanding
A Seal
LOL
Jack5102
Looks like spring training will be early summer practice and then maybe even a season of say *** games????
NY_Yankee
This is millionaires versus billionaires so it is not like either side is suffering, The only loser is Joe Public who has to pay more for tickets, higher cable/satellite bills, subscriptions like MLB TV or Extra Innings and merchandise.
maximumvelocity
This is a fallacy. Not all players are millionaires, and in comparison to other leagues, players in the first contract make less than players in other professional leagues, which is why higher minimum salaries and shorter time to arbitrate important.
Service time manipulation also costs players a ton of money, particularly those player who were not drafted high but are nonetheless ready to play.
In this case, it’s billionaires versus guys who barely make minimum wage.
48-team MLB
$570,000 isn’t “barely minimum wage.” In fact, most people don’t even make 20 percent of that. Maybe the minor league players should be paid more but even the league minimum in the Majors is far more than most people ever make.
Tonyv76
What about the guys on the 40 man roster that aren’t on the 25. 15 guys that have made little money, maybe never got to the majors and they cant even play in the minors. They get hosed.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
@48. I absolutely agree that the minor leaguers deserving more pay. It’s absolutely pathetic what they are paid. Meanwhile the guys riding the bench on the MLB club make 10-20 times more a year.
Thornton Mellon
Minimum wage, even if it was made to be $15 per hour is $31,600 per year for a full time worker, 40 hours per week. In most states it is much lower, and could be under $20,000 per year.
That means to get to $570,000, the average worker has to work between 18-28 years.
Completely agree about the Scrooge McDuck billionaire owners swimming in their own pools of gold coins, but the above is what turns the casual fans off no matter who is right.
48-team MLB
NO ONE CARES. All they’re going to do is lose fans.
kingbum
I’m businessman I get it from both sides, work on the CBA and get it right, if it cost games that’s just the price of business. The CBA has to be of utmost importance or the negotiations five years later will probably end up as a straight up strike.
48-team MLB
We don’t need more shortened seasons. There have already been three shortened seasons in the last 30 years.
Doxie
Both sides will hold out for the last plug nickle they can squeeze out .
Good chance spring training is late to start , maybe even April’s schedule.
The fans get upset and angry , a deal is finally struck.
The real losers are the fans. Fans will still attend and while slow to forgive will soon do so.
Youth are losing interest in baseball compared to Football and Hoops.
Wash , rinse and repeat.
Johnmac94
“Hoops”, HOCKEY is NOT Hoops. Only a certain portion of this country has ANY interest in “Hoops”, it has never changed from day 1.
ChuckyNJ
MLB has lost the Black audience to the NBA and NFL. MLB has lost the non-Caribbean Spanish speakers to soccer. Those are sizable audiences which no diversity initiative can replace.
And yes, I am old enough to remember when the World Series was the biggest sporting event of the year in the US.
Thomas E Snyder
I’m predicting the weekend before Memorial Day will see the season’s first games.
mustache101
I’m just curious… why would an international draft even be on the table (I am for it) these prospects are not part of the union.. I will say I’m not fully educated in the talks but if the yelichs and trouts of the world want want these massive contracts (not saying there right or wrong) there strapping the earnings of the younger players… I’m a baseball fan first but the nfl is king of money and they resolved fast.. I do agree the younger players should be paid better but it’s hard for a team like my brewers to carry a few large contracts… then to pay more to there younger players mlb players and owners made this problem…. Either the huge guaranteed contracts stop or it is what it is… if the stars have to get a gazzilon dollars then then the lower players suffer… if they would sign for 150 million they would leave money for the younger players to get that 4/60 but they want there 300-400 million dollar contracts and want others paid also.. I’m not pro owner or player I just find it pathetic… we want parody but owners and players don’t… players claim they do but they won’t spread money out owners say they do but they tank for picks… look at the dodgers (they have every right do so)… hader is my example why would they give up prospects they don’t need to they will just sign him when he’s a free agent throw 100 mil at him .. and my brewers made Corbin burnes gave him his spin rate… do we have a chance in heck of signing him to an extension him NO and we understand and that’s wrong… but is it fair by the rules other teams are just chomping at the bit because they have money??? We are there farm system
scottaz
Ironically, it’s the owners who are trying to protect fans from escalating game ticket prices. The MLBPA just keeps trying to demand higher salaries (the single largest expense item), while the owners fight against outlandish salary increases because they will have to raise fan ticket prices. Owners realize we fans are already unhappy with high ticket prices and are trying to hold the line where it is on prices. Yes, not 100% of owners are doing this, but as a fan of a mid-sized market team, my owners are very conscious that fans are nearing the breaking point. MLBPA could care less about fans and ticket prices. The millionaire players just want more millions. Even the first year, minimum salary players make far more than the average person ever makes (like 10 times more) per year and they are demanding more. What bothers me most about those first year, minimum salary player salaries is that the vast majority of those players so underperform for their salaries, that as a person who went through my career trying to overperform in order to get any kind of salary increase, I have absolutely no sympathy for the MLBPA’s arguments on this issue.
vtbaseball
Ticket prices have almost nothing to do with salaries. The owners are making their money through broadcasting deals. Ticket prices are a result of what people are willing to pay.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
“Ironically, it’s the owners who are trying to protect fans from escalating game ticket prices.”
Literal LOL.
greatgame 2
No sympathy either. No season=no players salaries. Making 20+ years of the avg guys salary in just 7 months. Serves them right to get nothing.
BlueSkies_LA
How much do the owners make, and would you rather watch them play baseball?
greatgame 2
I’d rather watch all the AAA guys who would happily make $500,000 each. Minor league ball is awesome to watch.
BlueSkies_LA
We’ve been through this before, in 1994-95, so we don’t have to think too hard on the results. Even assuming some fans being willing to pay to watch second-rate players play second-rate baseball, one thing for sure you won’t see is many if any triple-A players showing up to play as scabs, and probably few below that level either. Pretty obvious why. So you wouldn’t be seeing second-rate baseball. What we’d get (as in 1995) is a random bunch of washouts, converted softball players, and third-rate amateurs, thrown together to play inept baseball in meaningless games in our major league parks. Sounds like fun to you?
Tonyv76
There is a group that nobody is considering. Players on the 40 man roster not on the 25. Those guys get screwed royally as they can’t cant participate in minor league games either. Are there union “brothers” that are on the 25 man roster going to provide for them? Yeah, I didn’t think so. Outside of pro sports there are very few businesses that can operate with a payroll of 50% of revenues and that creates low yields on the investments for the businesses. Sports is an exception, but, at some point it will become unsustainable. Maybe the players should share the endorsement deals with their teams. Without being heavily invested in with training, coaching, nutrition and more they wouldn’t be MLB players.
Pads Fans
The answer to your question is yes. Players have been allowing the union to keep 100% of their merchandise money since 2018 just to build up a fund to pay players at least a portion of their salary if the season does not start in April. Several people including payer reps and Boras have said that there is close to $1 billion in that fund as of now and it all came from players that are on the 26 man rosters.
Players are not paid in the offseason nor in spring training. Their first paychecks are in mid-April.
Players pay for all of their own conditioning and training and nutrition during 6 months out of the year. Even during the season most, if not all, players maintaining their own trainers and nutritionists.
It seems that you got everything wrong in your comment. Care to try again after you actually go learn at least a little bit about the subject?
Skeptical
Not taking sides in this labor dispute.
Scott Boras may be an excellent player agent, but he is not an unbiased source here, so I would take any thing he or any other player agent says about a one billion player fund with a grain of salt.
Also, one billion sounds like a lot, but last year MLB teams were within spitting distance of four billion spent on player payroll.
Question. Say that this dispute goes into the season and the players dip into their fund to pay a percentage of players’ salaries, who qualifies? Would all the unsigned free agents be eligible? Since there are no 25/26 man rosters in right now, do all the players on the forty man roster qualify?
Well, even if they don’t use wood bats, college baseball starts up in February.
Thomas E Snyder
40-man roster players not on the 26-man active roster ALL play in the minor leagues (unless injured or on a taxi-squad). Service time should start when a player is added to the 40-man roster and should include all the time they remain there.
mustache101
Mlb flat out needs a cap floor and ceiling…. How many mlb players makes more then Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady they are on my tv constantly I have never seen a mlb player I guess it seen Harper in a few it’s embarrassing… I know it will never happen but it needs to the nhl could pass mlb I question it nascar already has
Pads Fans
Can’t have a cap until revenue is shared 100% equally by each team. In MLB today the top teams are over $600 million per year in revenue while the bottom 3 are all at $250 million. MLB has the highest revenue in total and per team of any major sport in the US.
tigerfan1968
They should agree to a fall back of the same agreement as last year if they do not have an agreement by feb 15..
HalosHeavenJJ
It’s almost like they should have started talking years ago instead of waiting until now.
To their credit, all of the proposals in the last several months did come from the owners. Most were pretty bad, but the players didn’t join the talk or propose anything of their own until last week.
I’m genuinely on the side of the players, but they’ve got to be proactive in these talks and they simply haven’t been until last week.
Pads Fans
That is false. The players have made 4 proposals now. It took the owners 43 days after the locked the players out to make a counter proposal to the players.
When all the facts are in the very article you are commenting on, trying to claim otherwise makes you look really, really bad.
HalosHeavenJJ
None of those “facts” are in the above article. The players counter offer last week was their first. They made no formal proposal prior to or during the lockout.
Progress is finally being made now that they are at the table.
Patrick OKennedy
The players made their first offer in May. The owners made a proposal in August. The players made a second proposal in early November.
theathletic.com/2938734/2021/11/05/mlb-players-ass…
The owners kicked some things around but refused to make another offer unless the players dropped the topic of free agency eligibility, revenue sharing, and arbitration eligibility. When the players would not accept those preconditions, the owners locked them out.
We have yet to get a serious proposal from the owners, IMO. Even the few concessions that they’ve made are tied to complete non starters, such as tying a salary floor to a$180M CBT threshold, or tying a paltry $10M bonus pool to converting minimum salaries into fixed limits for players that don’t get a bonus.
They are intentionally stalling to let the season and the potential loss of pay checks draw nearer.
barryr
Not only have they made proposals, they’ve already given in on some of the things they have asked for. The owners basically want the same deal they had last time, only with more playoff games and a foreign draft. The players are trying to fix what they considered a terrible deal.
Dogs
The way I see it, the Players have to be ready to lose pay & not give in. And I agree with what you said earlier, If the season starts late, owners lose the Expanded Playoffs, And the longer it goes on with very bad offers from the Owners, the less the players should give in and demand more in their favor..
I can see the players agreeing to keep the Arbitration & Free Agency as is
The Minimum Wage increases to $1,000,000 over the course of this contract
The Draft is picked every year by a strait Lotto, each team has a ball in the box & pick are decided as the ball flies up the tube
The Owners get the expanded Playoffs even though I think it waters down the sport greatly
The DH is implemented in the NL
Team Minimum Salary of 120M with stiff penalty
Team Max Salary increases to 275M over the course of the contract with stiff penalty
Sign or we will not play this year. Pay your mortgages & property taxes, pay back or do not receive your TV deals & loss of revenue from memorabilia sales
Owners would get hit hard with losses, yes they can survive but it will hurt & hurt bad.
Edp007
MLB should’ve stolen Bettman before they gave Manbun the reins.
barryr
Do you know one hockey fan who doesn’t hate Bettman?
Edp007
Yes. But irregardless , economically he’s brought stability. Labour peace as well.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Hockey fans who remember what a podunk garage league the NHL was in 1993.
Bettman is one of the top commissioners of all time with Stern and Rozelle.
And the NHL and Don Fehr led NHLPA have worked well together and grown the game.
Enjoy Clark and Manfred.
Thornton Mellon
forwhomjoshbelltolled
I remember that far back, and this is incorrect. Hockey popularity reached an all time high in the early 90s. The game was exciting. There was no neutral zone trap (until Montreal in 1993, even then they didn’t clamp down like the Devils did). The NHL had just expanded to San Jose, Anaheim, Tampa Bay, Ottawa, and Florida. The 1994 playoffs with the big market, big name Rangers winning the Cup had the NHL preparing to blow by the NBA in popularity. ESPN had national hockey night, and I think well over 100 games were shown between ESPN and ESPN2 at the time.
The first thing they did was blow it by having labor issues in 1994-95. The first time they recovered pretty quickly, but missing all of 2004-05 nearly killed the sport. When it came back it was cardboard sets on OLN! Then right when momentum resumed, there was ANOTHER work stoppage less than 10 years later.
Bettman – no matter the list of causes – shoulders a large part of the blame. That and he actively tried to remove fighting from the NHL. That’s why the fans boo every chance they get.
Edp007
I tend to disagree though your points are valid. Nothing or no one is perfect. Bettman is booed because it’s vogue to boo commissioners. Lol
I am in mid sixties. Following hockey all my life. Here in Toronto where hockey is biggest thing around , the talking heads hated Bettman early on. Always ragging him. Over the years it turned. He got the respect of everyone because of the leagues success. Yes the fans boo. The talking heads do not boo any more. After all who knows hockey better than Canadian talking heads. Lol kidding
66TheNumberOfTheBest
You appear to be conflating the SI cover in 1994 declaring it hot and the NBA not or the Ranger’s Cup as hockey’s peak when in reality it was, like, a $400 million a year league or so then.
NHL revenue is now $4 billion a year.
And fans booing? The morons in Pittsburgh boo Bettman, too. He’s literally the ONLY (ONLY) reason the Pens are still here. And yet they still boo. So, I would not use the booing of ignorant fans as a data point.
Like, I said, though…you can keep Manfred, Clark and MLB…if you find them so superior.
Good luck.
rightwingrick
Farcical. Has even ONE negotiator even mentioned the FANS? You know, those people (especially those in the lower and middle income brackets) whose taxes pay for their stadiums yet those same fans can’t afford to go to a game with their kids, buy hotdogs, and order a coke. Millions left outside the gates who’ve helped make both the players and the owners filthy rich. Gee, I wonder why baseball doesn’t attract as many fans as it used to?
beyou02215
Neither side give a hoot about the fans, other than the amount of money they spend.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
TTO. Boring AF.
ChuckyNJ
“The Fans” are not a negotiator and never have.
Want to see where a strike has a real impact? Late last year Kellogg’s announced it was hiring strikebreakers to replace union workers at plants that made Pop-Tarts and Frosted Flakes. Once people found out that Kellogg’s was going to be publicly shamed for hiring scab labor, the company settled with the union pretty quickly.
Pads Fans
The owners start losing money in 26 days. The players don’t lose a penny until April.
The players have a $1 billion fund set aside to pay players a portion of their salaries. The owners still have to pay for spring training facilities, stadiums, and other bills once they start losing the majority of their revenue, TV money, on February 26th.
All the national TV deals, which account for over 30% of total revenue, only pay if MLBPA members are the players on the field. Not sure about the local deals, but outside of the handful of teams that are the majority owners of their RSN, that is probably the case with all of them.
Revenue in baseball went up by 30% since 2016. Player salaries has gone down.
JoeBrady
Pads Fans
Revenue in baseball went up by 30% since 2016.
=====================================
The players have often been offered a percentage of the revenue and have refused. It was a brutal mistake, and one which they continue to make. They’ve probably left $1B on the table. It’s tough to be sympathetic if they insist on shooting themselves in the foot.
foppert
You know its reached “pathetic” in a sport when there is prestige associated with owning the highest AAV or the largest ever contract. Sort of let’s you know what the priorities have evolved too.
Cam
I still find it incredible that the MLBPA has an international draft in their back pocket as a “bargaining chip” despite the fact that they don’t represent anyone or anything to do with it. Ditto with the amateur draft.
The Owners are greedy, and MLB has to placate to them as they basically own baseball. But the MLBPA isn’t exactly standing on much of a moral high ground themselves – they openly negotiate away the rights and futures of people they don’t even represent, for the gain of those that they do.
mike156
Its just business, and the owners are better situated to play the long game. The commenters on here who insist that the players are at fault, the owners are trying to protect the fans, and the union should just cave aren’t paying attention. Both sides want to make as much as they can, period. The difference is that players have a limited horizon to cash in. The increase in minimums seems like a small issue….but not for half the league that plays for near that, and has an average MLB service time expectation of three years. Neither side owes us anything other than to be competitive when we tune in/roll through the gates. .
samthebravesfan
Lock out and strike all they want. I’ll be here; I don’t care how long the season is.
Dunk Dunkington
So Spring training will be delayed? What about the minor leaguers? If MLB cancels games does that mean they will not start the minor league seasons up until there is a CBA agreement?
rememberthecoop
Yeah, I was wondering about that myself. My first reaction is, why couldn’t they play? They are all not on the 40 man roster, so I would think that many of them would not be part of the MLBPA yet. But then I wonder if they would sit out in kind of a sympathy strike or something? Anyone know for sure?
Patrick OKennedy
Minor league players who are not on a 40 man roster have been told to report.
Players on 40 man rosters are locked out.
HubcapDiamondStarHalo
They’ve had multiple months since the lockout began, and so far the only thing the two sides agree upon is “we’re pretty far apart…”
gbudell
Baseball has been my great love all my life. I still follow but it has not been the same since the 94 strike.. In this inflationary economy, I have 3 words for both sides- FIGURE IT OUT!
Even a delay of spring training- something to enjoy in this nonstop bad news cycle- will push people to say screw it. They’ve already ruined the offseason. Thank you MLBTR for your efforts to keep it interesting. The chats and hypothetical stories have helped.
lumber and lighting
International merchandise & marketing,local tv,cabletv,network tv,international tv,& radio money isn’t in the profit sharing % split with the players union.It’s ridiculous what owners want to negotiate in the first place.There’s more then arses in the seats on money earned for union.Ownership doesn’t disclose any revenue streams other then attendance and concessions basically.It’s a false narrative to begin with on the revenue streams to be basically split 50/50.Billions the owners split without 1 penny of those revenue streams going to mlb union or more money to compete.There’s a reason the partners pay profit sharing amongst each other.Every single team could have a 250 million budget on profits from international merchandising alone!
beyou02215
You can side with the owners, the players, neither or both, but this much is abundantly clear: Neither side really gives a hoot about the fans, other than their wallets.
Rick Pernell
I just keep thinking “Replacement Player” I remember Pedro Borbon working out for the Reds at age 50. Please get this crap wrapped up.
mike156
Excellent point. Although I think I might be willing to pay to see Jamie Moyer suit up. Probably can still induce a soft grounder.
sox34
It would be an absolute shame if the greedy MLB owners wasted any more of these players careers. We have so many future hall of famers in the league now and I want to watch!! Mike Trout, Juan Soto, Whit Merrifield, Bryce Harper, Clayton Kershaw, etc. !!!
davidk1979
Merrifield? Lol
FredMcGriff for the HOF
Merrifield the 33 year old with 900 career hits a hall of famer???
kje76
Change the description from “future hall of famers” to “exciting players to watch”, and I think there’s more common ground.
Dustyslambchops23
It would be great if they just negotiated like business partners vs enemies.
Fire up spring training, plan to start the season on time, end the lock out but make a plan to get the cba done by the end of spring training. There is so much hostility where there doesn’t need to be.
HalosHeavenJJ
To operate like partners you generally need a level of transparency the owners are unwilling to grant.
Right now the owners are basically telling the union to take their word for it when it comes to revenues. I don’t blame the players for not doing so.
davidk1979
Over or under a one hour meeting?
Jacob woltje
It time to get a deal done now. The owners are going to upset fans. It’s time to get in a room and get this deal done.
Jacob woltje
There needs to be major Progress made today and this week. We do not lose spring training are games.
hoof hearted
Who’s Slater?
The players will complain about this CBA, no matter how it plays out.
And the owners will find loop holes …
Old York
As I’ve been saying, I doubt this season happens, unless they use replacement players.
Omarj
MLB, get it together. Right now I blame 80% owners and 20% players. And 100% Manfred. So much posturing. The league can’t get out of its own way. There are some organizations are not helping the league (spend, attendance, winning, etc.), and that crap has stayed true for way too long. Consider the salary discrepancies and it leads to owner greed. I’m thinking they’re going to lose 20+games and that’ll turn fans off. Curious on the backlash once football is over.
yanks_aaronx3
What the league and mlbpa is showing that they have no care in the sense of urgency to get a deal done. Why is it that they maybe had 3 meetings in the last 60 days? How about getting a deal done before dec 1st? This should have been done already. They are going to lose a lot of fans if this disrupts the season
RobM
That was all on the owners. They locked the players out on December 1 and then didn’t schedule any meetings or make proposals for six weeks. Likely they wanted to create a deadline to increase pressure. It’s creating pressure, but not sure they left enough time for the jet to take off from the runway.
Bottom line is MLB has had the greatest length of labor peace of all the major sports. There was bound to end eventually. It has.
JoeBrady
They locked the players out because the last time, the players walked out just before the playoffs. The owners are just copying the players’ strategy.
Past that, I agree. We haven’t missed a game in 28 years. Even if they missed the entire month of April, it will mean they’ve averaged 161 games a year instead of 162. Way too many people are taking this personally.
Albert Belle's corked bat
I side with the owners.
ctyank7
Are both sides savvy enough, wise enough to settle in time for spring training and exhibition games to start on time? Or does one side wish to teach the other “a lesson.” Once the games start being canceled, that’s when the season starts to slip away — first the exhibitions, then the early part of the regular season.. and before you know it, with.nothing resolved by August 1st, the whole year is scrubbed.
Rsox
There is likely zero chance spring training starts on time which in turn likely means the season doesn’t start on time either. So now the question becomes over/under the season starting by Memorial Day?
hoof hearted
Bob Costas for commissioner. Who’s with me?
Orel Saxhiser
Not qualified.
breckdog
I am worried for the players health. After the normal season following a short season there appeared to be quite a few injuries. Now we may have another truncated season. What are the long and short term effects going to be?
Financially it changed things as well. Too much for me to speculate on there, but i am also worried about player evaluations leading into the coming drafts. I saw a lot of college seniors taking a pittance of a bonus since they had lost the leverage of leaving in the last draft. They need to get a deal in place and the season started on time. There is a lot that could go wrong with the business side of the sport but i have never been as worried about that portion of the game as i am now.
prov356
breck – Just because the players are locked out, it doesn’t mean they can’t workout and play catch and stuff. The players will be just fine. As professional ball players, I’m sure they are doing what they need to do to be ready for the season.
breckdog
They can still work out but they are not playing games at the pace of a season. Stacking a short season on top of a full season then possibly back to a truncated season this year is going to have effects.
prov356
Nah. I think that’s just adding drama where there isn’t any. They are professional athletes. They do what they need to do to be ready. I’m not a professional athlete and I work out every day.
RobM
The TV networks paid out near full value to MLB in 2020 despite the reduction in games, but teams need to begin paying that back in 2022. Missed games will begin to significantly compile on what’s already owed. Add in MLB’s pending contract with Apple TV, and the owners absolutely do not want more missed games, certainly not many. The MLBPA knows this. The players are in their strongest negotiating position in several CBAs, and they’ve hired a skilled negotiator who previously worked for the NHL, which has had some brutal labor lockouts, including a missed season. This likely gets nastier before it gets better. I can see this CBA as the one where the players make a significant stand. So far the owners haven’t offered anything much at all.
I am surprised that MLBPA started negotiations on minimum salary at $775K. They should have started at a $1M. They wouldn’t get that large of a jump, but now they’re going to have to settle for somewhere between management’s offer and their offer. MLB has the lowest minimum salary of the major sports despite having more games. Considering how teams are pushing more games toward players with 1-3 years of service time, no player should be making under $1M.
An increase in the luxury-tax thresholds and a reduction in revenue sharing should also be high on their agenda. Revenue sharing is the least-understand aspect by fans. It’s contributed significantly to the players reduction of the revenue pie and in tanking.
kodion
Revenue sharing is a problem.
What would happen if the players accepted some in exchange for a better base salary AND …wait for it … expanding eligibility to everyone as soon as they are named to the 40-man roster? It would create pay imbalances on minor league rosters but oblige teams to pay anyone they deem eligible for the Major League roster.
Would it kill the Rule 5 draft?
dasit
is the pre-arb salary pool number really a serious sticking point? seems like the union should have bigger fish to fry
Patrick OKennedy
Unfortunately, the owners see the bonus pool as a substitute for moving the arbitration eligibility threshold, and they’ve tied it to making the minimum salary also a maximum for players with less than three years who don’t get a bonus or super 2 status.
The players want a bonus pool plus moving the arbitration threshold and will never agree to turn the minimum into a fixed salary.
The owners did propose a tiered system for players in their first three years.
$615,000 for less than one year service time
$650K for 1- 2 years
$700K for 2+ years up to the super two (2 years and 116 days this year)
The players are at $775,000 in the first year scaling up to $875,000 over the five year term.
Players probably make a new offer tomorrow. They should seize the tiered structure, with some higher numbers, IMO.
They might as well try to get younger players paid, because they’ve proposed nothing to prevent tanking (a draft lottery won’t do it) and nothing to prevent service time manipulation.
barryr
As someone who has walked picket lines and dealt with negotiations in the entertainment industry, a pretty good parallel to MLB, I can tell you that the players biggest problem is the lack of a key issue. Usually, there is one key issue that labor has to have, one thing they feel is so unfair that they would strike over (or in this case, not sign to end the lockout). In that case, the impasse over that issue is put aside and they settle over the lesser issues . Then they attack that issue as best they can – sometimes, they can’t fix it and there is a strike or lockout. IN this case, there s no one issue. The players hate the way the last CBA turned out and they want to fix a lot of things in it. They want to make it less desirable to tank. They want earlier free agency, they want to protect the middle class players in their 30s who are getting squeezed out of the game, they want to protect free agency for the top players by raising the pseudo cap. They know the owners are making a ton of money. They know that because the owners won’t let them look at their books. That’s on top of the fact that owning a sports franchise is a fantastic long term investment. The reason negotiations aren’t going on as much as we’d like is that the owners don’t want to give in on anything – the current system is a gold mine for them.
As to the economic state of baseball – tv networks are tossing hundreds of millions of dollars at MLB in the hope they will get to televise 3 or 6 first round playoff games. Do you think these people are stupid? MLB gives them live sporting events, shows where people have to watch the commercials.
It’ll end eventually, there is too much money at stake for the owners. Remember, some of these guys are mortgaged up to the hilt and need the cash flow from game revenue.. Keep calm and carry on, boys.
Orel Saxhiser
@barryr, I agree regarding one key issue. Unfortunately, the players have been soundly beaten in the last two CBA negotiations and now want to make up for it all at once. That’s just not realistic. The owners know this and already have them over a barrel. We’re already seeing it. The MLBPA drop their push for earlier free agency, anticipating the owners will now drop a demand. Instead, the owners say, “Fine. What else will you give up?” The owners have won the stare-down before and know they will win again. In fact, they’ve probably already won. Even if the millionaire players sit out the entire season, they won’t defeat the billionaires.
slider32
Anyone that was in a union and had to go through contracts knows that it isn’t easy to come to an agreement. Most of the time it comes down to the deadline which is March 1 in my book. Until that time, their is no need to panic! Players today have already started their training if they are worth their salt, and will be ready when this settled.
jhawk90
Drives me nuts that they just casually toss spring training around like no one counts on it – fans, workers, businesses- eh no big deal.
alwaysgo4two
Again……any news of baseball’s demise will, again, be grossly exaggerated.
Orel Saxhiser
It’s just the opposite. With all the money out there, the game is headed for a golden era. Both sides know this and don’t want to be left holding the short straw.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
The money is there now because it’s a wild west of competition amongst streaming services and legacy broadcasters and everyone is trying to grab whatever live programming they can find.
A decade from now, (especially if there is consolidation, always a good bet) the promise and potential of live programming alone won’t be enough, the results will have to be there. Being the only thing going in the summer won’t be enough. The 58 year old average MLB fan will then be 68.
Complacency brings irrelevance.
Without a plan to bring new fans to the game, irrelevance becomes obscurity.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
Exactly.
As long as you don’t die right away, mortally wounding yourself is just fine.
Dogs
Want to get negotiations going again for Free Agents? Maybe Boris should check in on the teams in Japan & Korea just to see if any of them are interested in any of his clients..
And why is the Owner’s Lockout not a breach of contract with the players who have signed contracts?
Vizionaire
the last cba expired. what the owners fear the most is the union strike during the season.
Starscream
I won’t pretend to know how such high-stakes labor negotiations work, but – as a simple fan looking in from the outside – this is what would make me happy:
Regardless of who “wins” this time around, I’d like to see some language in the new CBA that supports a commitment to the game, itself.
You’ll (presumably) have a 5-year deal. That’s plenty of time to recognize any parts of the agreement that became unsatisfactory over that period.
So it should be mandated that after the end of year 4, both parties must begin drafting and exchanging proposals for the next deal.
That triggers a 13-month clock, within which they can reach an agreement … or not. If, after 13 months (ie 30 days after the CBA has officially expired), no agreement has been finalized, both parties must defer to binding arbitration.
No extensions, no exceptions.
Don’t like the orbiter’s rulings? Too bad. You had 5 years to do it on your own. Better luck next time.
This way, the season (and the game) continues.
I know it won’t happen, but imagine both sides coming out of this being able to say they’ve created a system that will effectively protect the sport from future labor interruptions!
I think that would go a very long way towards repairing any lost faith in the game.
Unrealistic? Sure. Unreasonable? Maybe. But – hey – a fan can dream, right?
etex211
They’re not even trying. Neither side cares about the game.
prov356
That’s just silly.
etex211
It’s 100% correct. Both sides only care about money.
Unclenolanrules
One of the two groups of people in this dispute are worth a gazillion dollars and mostly made their money in other businesses.
The other group grinds and plays the games.
Unless you are a billionaire, you side with labor. The ones that care about the game, and who put in the blood, sweat, and tears. Owners cut checks.
JoeBrady
Unless you are a billionaire, you side with labor.
=======================================
Why do you need to side with labor? They don’t grind any more than I use to grind when I played softball.
To be honest, I don’t know why anyone sides with either side. The players collectively make > $4B. The owners collective profit is probably similar. This isn’t a viva Che moment.
IMO, the moment I hand over $13 for a beer, it is no longer my money, and the owner and labor can chop it up any way they want.
hyraxwithaflamethrower
I side somewhere in the middle. I think a few of the players’ initial requests and proposals were ludicrous. It’s fine – you ask for the moon first to see what triggers the other side – but their recent proposals have had significant concessions. They realize a fair proposal is in between what each side wants; the owners don’t seem to realize that (or care).
etex211
When you play a game for a living and get paid millions of dollars to do it, you are not labor.
badco44
As usual, both sides will screw around with Mickey Mouse concessions, and wait til the last minute to truly bargain to get something done and that’s hopefully they come to their senses
prov356
Stupid rich people.
manfraud
Welp when the MLB wonders why its fanbase continues to trend down I hope they circle back to these negotiations and not to “length of game”
tigerfan1968
The owners red line appears to be the salary cap. Not sure what the players red line is probably the salary cap as well. No progress therefore can be made… I guess it depends on how red each sides red line is… I see little hope here….
warnbeeb
In my day I did a little collective bargaining. It would seem both sides here have extremely experienced negotiators. I’m not worried.
We don’t know what they’re saying to each other and I absolutely guarantee you whatever is leaking out to the media is baloney. Both sides know. Both sides are ignoring what’s being reported. There’s a fair amount of winking and nodding going on.
It will come together in the next 2 weeks. There will be Spring Training and the season will start on time.
hyraxwithaflamethrower
I hope you’re right, but I have my sincere doubts. What the owners have offered so far hasn’t kept up with inflation from the last CBA. One side appears to be making meaningful concessions and the other side seems to want the exact same agreement with next to no real changes. I do believe we’ll have regular season games in May, but I’m not sold that we’ll have them in April.
soxshortstop
I haven’t read all the comments, so pardon me if someone already said they were canceling their 2022 spring training trip – we are too. Not going to Fort Myers.
PutPeteRoseInTheHall
Grow up. Everybody needs to compromise here why does everyone feel like they need everything they want? They all make so much money it’s crazy, and here they are being greedy
mills
Still getting emails from MLB selling tickets to spring training, MLB Extra Innings and regular season single game and season tickets. They actually increased the price of the Extra Innings season pass this year while they are locked out. Just another poke in the eye for the fans. Give us more of your money while we are likely not even going to play a 162 game season. Any momentum that the league had after last year is gone. MLB has now moved into the NBA category of irrelevancy.
Bob333
BOTH SIDES SHUT UP AND END BASEBALL TIRED OF HEARING IT OWNERS AND PLAYERS ARE ALL LOSERS AND COULD CARE LESS ABOUT THE FANS
californiaangels
Who’s the angels representative? Just curious
scottaz
Noticed that the wording of this article reflects the status of negotiations last week (Jan. 25-26) and then some author analysis and speculation on issues.
MLB and MLBPA have been meeting/negotiating every day since Jan. 25. There seems to be a gag order on both sides so that positioning and negotiating is Not being done in the media by either the MLBPA or the owners.
Note the wording about the economics proposal today! It does Not say negotiations will resume today, it only says the economic issues proposal will be presented today.
The MLBPA and owners may still have issues to settle before a new CBA is reached, but progress has been made and both sides seem to be negotiating in good faith. There have been zero leaks/statements from either side in the media. I expect resolution within a week.
baseballlover6363
That’s ridiculous I’d love to believe that to but literally everything we know about this topic is negative. Sounds like to me you have blind optimism and you don’t know what your talking about.
scottaz
In grade school, I learned the difference between to, too and two. I also learned the difference between the possessive your and the contraction you’re, and when each of these was appropriate in a sentence. It seems you have blind pessimism and don’t know how to write what you’re thinking about. I challenge you to actually and carefully re-read the article and see if you can begin to understand what I wrote.
BlueSkies_LA
Maybe his optimism is not completely warranted, but your criticism of it is over the top. We should know that both sides publicly discuss only what they believe makes the other side look bad. I’m not very optimistic myself but I know that we aren’t hearing more than a tiny bit of what is actually being discussed behind closed doors, and the less spin we’re hearing in the media, the more likely it is they are making actual progress.
scottaz
WOW! A Dodger fan supporting a Dback fan!?! Thank you.
If in fact the MLBPA and the owners have been in serious discussions for over a week, and if in fact the MLBPA hired a professional labor negotiator so that both sides have competent negotiators, and if in fact the silence in the media from both camps is a sign that the two sides are now in serious negotiations to hammer out an agreement, then how many days or weeks would you expect this final stage of labor negotiations toward a CBA to take? I’d guesstimate 2-3 weeks max. They’ve already spent 8 days. I don’t think 1 more week is at all overly optimistic. I think it’s right in the range of high degree of possibility.
BlueSkies_LA
I figure we should all be baseball fans first and foremost, but with the trash talking that goes on here all the time, I wonder how many believe that. I can’t commit myself to being an optimist yet, but I think you made a fair point. The less we hear the two sides trading accusations in the media the more probable it is they are getting down to serious business. In the contest I picked an end-date for the lockout near the end of the month, and I’m kind of liking my chances.
99socalfrc
The players need to give the owners the salary cap. It’s essentially in place already, pretending otherwise is just fooling yourself.
Offer a cap, in exchange for only 5 years of control on players.
Lastly don’t count the money teams pay for traded players to count against the cap. Within 3 years you’ll have every player on the Rays and Brewers getting paid big bucks from a contract they signed with the Dodgers or Yankees. Players get more $$$ as the big market teams will spend like drunken sailors and the small market teams get to bring in big name players who need fixing
GarryHarris
Let’s declare a baseball fans strike effective immediately!
Tcsbaseball
Hope they don’t play and lose all their fans
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
They need to stop messing around. How are they still this far apart.
Angry Disgruntled Sox Fan
This is dumb. Nuff said
PitcherMeRolling
Manfred and the owners are cheap babies. They aren’t even keeping up with inflation.