The Hall of Fame announced this evening that David Ortiz has been elected by the Baseball Writers Association of America. He is the only player inducted by the BBWAA in this year’s election cycle.
“I am truly honored and blessed by my selection to the Hall of Fame—the highest honor that any baseball player can reach in their lifetime,” Ortiz wrote in a statement released by the Red Sox. “I am grateful to the baseball writers who considered my career in its totality, not just on the statistics, but also on my contributions to the Red Sox, the City of Boston, and all of Red Sox Nation. I am also grateful to my teammates, my managers and coaches and Red Sox ownership for their faith in me and allowing me to be part of three World Championships.”
Ortiz received 77.9% of the vote, narrowly edging across the 75% threshold to earn induction on his first ballot. A native of the Dominican Republic, Ortiz originally began his career in the Mariners system. He was traded to the Twins as a prospect in 1996 and debuted with Minnesota late the following year. A solid but not elite hitter early in his career, Ortiz would spend the next half-decade with the Twins.
During the 2002 campaign, Ortiz tallied 466 plate appearances, a personal-high to that point. Despite posting a solid .272/.339/.500 line with 20 home runs, he was cut loose after the season. Signed by the Red Sox that offseason, he almost immediately emerged as one of the game’s most feared sluggers.
Ortiz hit .288/.362/.592 over 509 trips to the dish his first season in Boston. So began a run of five straight seasons with offensive output measured at least 45 percentage points above the league average by wRC+, with Ortiz finishing in the top five of AL MVP balloting each season. A fantastic postseason performer, he claimed the 2004 ALCS MVP award as part of the Red Sox’s drought-snapping World Series campaign and was excellent during Boston’s run to another championship three years later.
After a bit of a downturn between 2008-09, Ortiz somewhat surprisingly returned to his middle-of-the-order form as he neared his mid-30s. Between 2010 and 2016, the left-handed hitter never had a season with a wRC+ below 134. He was an instrumental factor in a third Red Sox title, claiming 2013 World Series MVP honors after putting up a comical .688/.760/1.188 showing in 25 plate appearances during a six-game series win over the Cardinals.
Ortiz remained an elite hitter through his 2016 retirement. He raked at a .315/.401/.620 clip during his final season, among the best showings of his illustrious run. That final campaign brought his career plate appearance total a bit north of 10,000 and he hung up his spikes owner of a .286/.380/.552 line. Ortiz tallied 2472 hits, 541 home runs (17th all-time) and drove in 1530 runs (23rd on the all-time list).
Despite his massive offensive production, it remained unclear until the very end whether Ortiz would have enough support to garner first-ballot selection. He was primarily a designated hitter, and his lack of defensive contributions were likely a sticking point for some voters. And, like many others on the ballot, Ortiz wasn’t without reported ties to performance-enhancing drugs.
According to reports, Ortiz failed a PED survey test in 2003. As Jay Jaffe of FanGraphs explored in much greater detail last month, however, MLB later suggested some players named in the survey test — which had been intended to remain anonymous — likely appeared on the list for substances that weren’t banned at the time. Ortiz was not named in the Mitchell Report, nor he was ever suspended for PED use during his career.
A significant enough portion of the BBWAA treated those results with sufficient skepticism to push Ortiz across the threshold for election, even as others on the ballot were excluded based on PED ties. A ten-time All-Star, Ortiz won seven Silver Slugger awards and was a key piece of three World Series teams. While Ortiz never won an MVP award, he appeared on ballots in eight separate seasons — including the aforementioned five consecutive top-five finishes. An icon in Red Sox’ franchise history, he’s now cemented as one of the greatest players in MLB history. MLBTR congratulates Ortiz — who’ll be enshrined alongside Era Committee inductees Buck O’Neil, Jim Kaat, Tony Oliva, Gil Hodges, Bud Fowler and Minnie Miñoso next summer — on his induction.
Steroids are a Hell of a drug
Steroids don’t make you one of the greatest clutch athletes ever to live in any sport. He also was never found guilty
tell that to bonds!
But…. He was a nice guy!!! So dumb.
Exactly, @astick.
What an absolute joke the hall is. What an absolute joke this selection is, too. Not saying Ortiz is undeserving. But if he gets in, so should Bonds, Rodriguez, Clemens, Palmeiro, etc.
When Selig was elected, I lost all respect for the HOF. This just confirms that it’s still not worthy of any.
The BBWAA. A bunch of jealous, biased, dorks whom probably weren’t good enough to play JV ball, man.
Bonds admitted using steroids and hgh in court. He claimed he didn’t know what they were at the time, but he admitted using them. Its not a question in Bonds case.
Ortiz tested positive in the survey testing before standard testing began in 2004. Because of that he was tested 10 times per year throughout his career, rather than the 3 times most players are tested.
Either Ortiz is the smartest guy in baseball and also one of the sneakiest or his positive in 2003 was a false positive as both Selig, the Commissioner at the time, and Manfred have said was likely the case. Since it was a survey test the b and c samples were destroyed instead of being available to test again as they would today in the case of a positive.
What I find most interesting is that Ortiz’s best seasons were after testing started in 2004, not during the hey day of steroids. baseball-reference.com/players/o/ortizda01.shtml Seems to me that its more likely that the pitchers were no longer able to use steroids with impunity and so Ortiz started teeing off on their lesser offerings. Average velocity dropped in 2004-2005 as compared to 2002-2003. I don’t think that is a coincidence.
Bonds NEVER admitted using steroids. Proof? I’m waiting.
outinleftfield – The JUICED BALL ERA was starting to wind down by 2004 when legislation banning steroids in baseball and the use of steroids in or out of baseball became illegal.
The data shows that the baseball has the single greatest correlation to HRs hit each year. Steroids have next to NO CORRELATION. Want some proof? Observe the numbers below.
How did Papi map to the juice in the ball with respect to HRS?
YR – JUICE – PAPI HRS – PAPI HRS/Game Played (Accounts for injuries)
2004 – 1,12 – 41 – .273
2005 – 1.03 – 47 – .296
2006 – 1.11 – 54 – .358 Most HRs in a year when Juice is very high
2007 – 1.02 – 35 – .235
2008 – 1.00 – 23 – .211 Papi’s HRs drop as the juice drops
2009 – 1.04 – 28 – .233
2010 – 0.95 – 32 – .221 Lean HR years are during low juice years
2011 – 0.94 – 29 – .199
2012 – 1.02 – 23 – .256
2013 – 0.96 – 30 – .219
2014 – 0.86 – 35 – .246
2015 – 1.01 – 37 – .253
2016 – 1.16 – 38 – .252 Papi’s last three years were HOF excellence
Like most home run hitters I have tracked, Papi’s HRS/GM tracked very closely to the JUICE in the baseball. Once again, this suggests as with all the other players, that the JUICE was the primary factor in creating home runs for the last 140 years.
Steroids usage whether you believe it started in the 1970s (as they did) or in the 1990s did not show any cumulative effect on HRs as more players took them and individual player upped their usage. They did not track to the HRS per year by many many power hitters but the juice in the baseball tracks very closely to those same players. If a player always took steroids then the drops that coincide with the juice level of the baseball falling should not have happened. But they did further refuting the impact of steroids. The player didn’t stop taking steroids or suddenly taper down during those seasons, the ball simply changed and had less juice in it.
It’s so obvious by the numbers yet most fans don’t buy into it because they wouldn’t be able to blame anyone except maybe Selig who in 1994 chose to use the ball that mistakenly got used in 1987 during a one year surge in home runs. Selig knew the strike would hurt baseball and he saw the results of the 1987 baseball so he built up the popularity of the game through rapid HR growth using juiced baseballs and chicks dig the long ball advertisements. Cunning yet underhanded based on wrongfully throwing the players under the bus.
Unfortunately, since it wasn’t commonly known that the ball was changing everyone (fans, Congress and the press) jumped on the Andro container in McGwire’s locker and completely diverted the real reason for the home runs from a ball with growing juice to a drug that had been taken for over 20 years but never showed an impact until the baseball changed.
I’m happy Ortiz got in but it’s embarrassing to the HOF to leave out the players linked to steroids since there is NO EVIDENCE that HR improvement is linked to steroids. It’s a 20 year old myth that Selig spun to self promote himself as the savior of baseball. He was but not for getting rid of steroids over a decade after he condoned them in Milwaukee but for introducing a baseball with significantly more juice that created some of the greatest home run races in history.
There are too many facts available about the juice to continue pointing the blame for HR growth at steroids. If you want to ban players for attempting to cheat? Fine do that. But at least set the record straight. The juice in the baseball jumped in the 20s, 50s, 90s and after 2014.. The consistent patterns of up and down annual HRs/Game/Year since 1871 shows that HRs have never been significantly impacted by an outside event except in those four eras.
Ironic that the 1950s growth is double that of the steroid era and the 2019 juice level was 1.39 compared to the peak of 1.17 in 2000 yet only the 1990s growth is recognized because someone shouted the words Performance Enhancing Drug which was synonymous in other sports that exist with different rules and different benefits gained by steroids which could be tracked to specific performances unlike in baseball..
Also, if the juice trend continues players joining the MLB after 2015 will have by far the highest average juice factors ever impacting home runs in their careers! Is it any wonder pitchers needed to find something to off set the increased juice in the baseballs? 1.39 in 2019!!! Wow.
You may find the impact analysis below interesting.
Note the dead ball to live ball jump was huge.
Note the post WWII jump was very large.
Note the mislabeled steroid era didn’t align by decade but rather it aligned perfectly when the ball changed after 1994.
1910s – 0.168 and 1920s with live ball – .402 more than double!
1940s – 0.525 and 1950s post WWII ball – .844 a 61% increase
1980s – 0.804 and 1990s after 94 ball change – 1.06 – 32% increase
CRITICAL BALL CHANGE IN 1994
1990-1994 – 0.846
VS
1995 – 1999 – 1.060
END RESULT = OVER A 25% increase in juice between the two halves of the 1990s!!
Is it any wonder why folks thought steroids were creating the huge growth? Too bad Selig forgot to mention his actions related to the baseball and improving the popularity of the sport after the 1994 strike!! Maybe we’d see a real Cooperstown not the bogus one that exists now.
Nobody was tested 10 times per year, including Ortiz. He lied and said he was tested 10 times per year. Of course he also said in 2009 that he had been tested 15 times since 2004. That’s 3 times per year which is far more in line with the 2-3 tests per year that was the norm then. But who knows the actual number because they would never disclose it and Ortiz is a liar who has made multiple contradicting statements on the matter.
Brady Anderson would like to have a word with you about the value of steroids when hitting a baseball
He cited where.
The baseball writers should not be the gatekeepers of the hall…
diddlez: Unless you have a positive test result in your hand for a specific substance, you have nothing but speculation.
Who decided that baseball writers should be the arbiters of who does and who doesn’t get in the HOF? Their opinions are not any more valid than yours or mine.
The fans should get to vote for it also..
Victor Cante’s attorney went to prison for leaking Bond’s grand jury testimony. Hope it was worth it.
Who should be?
Fans get a vote? So even less rational, less informed people voting will fix things? Have fun with every NY player getting in if we’re gonna turn it into an all out popularity contest.
Thats total nonsense. Ortiz was clearly deserving and one of the greatest to ever swing a bat. And you or others trying to pile him into the steroid guy bucket is lame. Based on what? The prototype test in 03′ that was so primitive it couldn’t be trusted and was dismissed by MLB, the MLBPA & independent labs as undependable? Yeah, OK… that’s something you should hang a guy’s entire career on when they have never been a single sniff of inappropriate chemical enhancements in his entire Red Sox career. Not a single failed test, not a single whistleblower.
That can’t be said about any of the players you mentioned.
That’s a fact. And that is why Ortiz is a 1st ballot HoF player and all the guys you mented were/are not.
@Ducky Buckin Fent
Meanwhile, there are those who deserve to be recognized with such an “honor” who aren’t because of their politics (think teammate of Ortiz in Boston).
It is a joke.
Well he has a spurious correlation with a made up stat, that’s something.
Where in any of those years did he fail a drug test?
Yessir, @oldschool.
They have weaponized their vote. In more than one way. The best players should be elected. The End. Now, you not only need the raw numbers, players have to be “liked” by the writers too. Such BS.
The steroid era is probably the biggest hatchet job we will ever see in professional sports. Ortiz gets elected while Bonds, Clemens, & Sosa drop off the ballot? Nonsense. Such an obvious double standard. Selig turns a blind eye to the whole thing, congress steps in(!), & he lets those guys twist in the wind. But: he is elected & the players are not? Even more BS.
I hate to be treated like I am stupid.
& the BBWAA are – indeed – trying to treat us *all* as stupid. So: screw that.
Steroids is more about keeping a player healthy and on the field for 162 games and less about hitting the ball harder or throwing it faster.
Ortiz has an impressive run of 600+ PA seasons under his belt.
600+ PAs every season from age 37 to age 40. That’s Hall of Fame health right there.
A DH should not get elected to the Hall of Fame, And I am a life long Red Sox fan.
The only people getting in to the Hall should be players that actually fielded a position for most of their careers.
Not part time players.
KD17 – Who are you Man? I have to agree with a LOT of what you’re saying here. You’re analysis needs to be out there in the mainstream. Not just die here in some meaningless thread that that will get absolutely NO attention on any National level. Thanks for taking the time to post this!
Ball JUICE/Critical Ball Change Theory in regards to Home Run production has validity through research data.
Steroid/PED Use Theory in regards to Home Run production can be proven but needs testing data. Would the users please step forward with dates of usage, enhancement drug and dosage so that we can put research data to the Theory? Anyone? Come on, not a single former major leaguer willing to step up to the line?
personally I think that there should be an argument that over a certain leaderboard threshold that guys get in regardless of how people vote and if from there the hall wants to asterisk or create a narrative on the plaque they are free to do, This applies certainly to people I don’t agree with but you have to tell the story or it just isn’t a representative of what realy happened in the sport – it is just propaganda
Yes he did but MLB likes him. He’s an ambassador and that it. His first few years he was not good, just fair.
He admitted to using a substance called the ‘cream’ and the ‘clear’. Look at the documents from the BALCO trial
So you are telling me that all of these steroid users risked $$ and reputation on a substance that wouldn’t even help them?? Get the hell outta here
@ducky could not agree more.
tell that to Arod. His ‘anonymous’ test destroyed his career.
@all Sammy Sosa is calling care to answer?
hmm how about the Mitchell report that papi is named in? one of the greatest? lol wow.
Edgar Martinez and David Ortiz earned their hall plaques by being the best of the best at their positions. DH has been a legitimate position for over 50 years. Should we take Mariano Rivera’s plaque away because he only ever pitched 1 or 2 innings.
Arod confessed to ESPN in 2009 that he used steroids from 2001-2003 as a Texas Ranger. During the DEA’s investigation of Biogenesis in 2014, Rodriguez confessed to the use of steroids during the 2010-2012 seasons. His admission was part of a plea deal with the DEA where he was given immunity in exchange for his testimony against Anthony Bosch, the fake doctor from Biogenesis.
Yes. Mo should never have been inducted to begin with. 100% is the biggest travesty of all hof votes.
The Mitchell report listed Ortiz as a user based upon their survey testing. Both Bud Selig and Rob Manfred have stated that the Michell findings were spurious at best and it was an injustice that Ortiz would be painted as a user based upon those “unscientific” tests. Ortiz was routinely tested for steroids for 13 years and NEVER tested positive.
Mo was absolutely awesome at his job, but he should not be in the hall of fame nor should any relief pitcher. Pitchers are relief pitchers because they do not have the stuff or the stamina to go through batting orders multiple times.
So true!
Yes. See how common shut down relievers are. Might need to build a new hall if we honor all them the same way
Where is Mr lol when we need him?
I’m as big a Sox fan as there is and Ortiz in and Schilling out is so rediculous. I believe Ortiz cheated whereas Schilling might be a jerk outside of the sport, his body of work is hall worthy.
Agree on all counts. Leaving Schilling out is just obnoxious political correctness. And I’m a Bernie Bro, most of the time. Does the fact that Brady loves the Big Cheeto mean that he’s not the GOAT (at least until Patrick ages a bit)? Of course not.
Schilling most likely cheated too. come on – mist players cheated during that Era and many lied, so none of them deserve any benefit of the doubt. And if you’re going to put a cheater in, at least Papu was great while Curt was borderline.
Doubled over on the floor laughing hysterically is my guess.
Schilling has said that if he got in he wanted Trump to be the one that Induction into the Hall of Fame
Hey Dewey.. I’m waiting for starting next year, like after the big steroid hoopla with ortiz is over and the “let’s elect Hunter” all starts up.. he gets in and ur namesake Dwight Evans better by the old timer’s committee, who was a better player, yet never really ever got much consideration.
@ Coop. What do you mean borderline? 3000k’s. 300K 3 different times. Finished 2nd for CY Young 3 times. 79.5 career WAR. Post season hero. Not elected into the hall just because people don’t like his political views. Don’t worry though Schilling will be elected by the Today’s Game Committee in 2 years. I couldn’t be happier Bonds/Sosa/Clemens got denied. Big Papi only made it in because he was like able but a cheater as well.
No it ain’t just look at his numbers he was good for only a few years schilling does not belong
Absolutely no possibility that Schilling will get voted in by the Today’s game committee. Several members have already expressed that. They may not still be members in 2 years, but if some are publicly saying he doesn’t belong now, its not likely that will change in 2 years. Maybe in 20.
That he’s borderline is an insane take. He’s top 20 and 26 all time in fWAR and bWAR, respectively.
He should be in the hall and there’s not really a reasonable argument aghast it.
Remember, using your logic, you totally ignore PEDs or you don’t let anyone in from the era. Schilling is on record for saying he never used and with his out of baseball obnoxiousness, someone certainly would have snitched on him, be it. former teammate, opponent or supplier. PEDs ruined the sport’s stats and many deserving players will not get it. Mike Mussina was great but never got to the WS. Schilling was simply amazing on the biggest stage the sport has to offer.
*correction:. Mussina never won a ring.
I don’t know Schilling from Adam, but as far as I know all he did was not back down to the political left. He should be in.
He never tested positive and I would bet my family fortune, he was tested constantly. Where “big head” bonds admitted to using the “clear and cream”. Schilling absolutely should have been admitted with his numbers and postseason production. He will get in eventually when the scribes of the keyboard won’t be able to stop the vets from voting him in.
Ortiz did test positive in 2003. That information was leaked when the feds raided mlbs test results.
Biggest fraud of all. Career long user of HGH. Seen throwing up gang signs with hands after games for years.
There were so many red flags about that NY Times story. Only a few players were named although over a hundred tested positive. Jake Peavy stated yesterday that many “drugs” that would give a positive result were being sold at GNC in 2002. Also, the Times had only one unnamed source who had to commit a felony to leak info from a sealed FBI file — not very trust worthy.
Sorry for the late response JohnSilver. The problem with the younger voters who use saberstats is if they investigated Evans, they would know how his career at the plate took off once a reporter revealed two of his children had major health issues.
Doubt he would get to choose
Upon what evidence do you base the statement that Ortiz cheated?
I hate when people use the term “political correctness” despite having no idea what it actually means.
Schilling is not of the Hall due to his politics. He’s out because he’s a jerk and the writers don’t like him. The end.
In electing Ortiz on his first opportunity, most voters chose not to penalize him for his link to the steroid era. The Times reported in 2009 that Ortiz had tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in 2003, when baseball conducted survey testing (without penalties) that was supposed to have remained anonymous.
google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2022/01/25/sports…
nytimes.com/2009/07/31/sports/baseball/31doping.ht…
Ortiz was found guilty, actually.
Guilty of what exactly? What specifically did he test positive of taking?
He tested positive for taking performance enhancing drugs
What specific performance enhancing drug. Every failed test that has resulted in any sort of suspension has specified the specific drug that the player tested positive for. If you can’t identify the specific drug Ortiz supposedly tested positive for then you have no proof of anything.
I don’t know what specific drug he tested positive for, but ESPN and Bleacher Report confirmed that he did test positive. That’s proof
Hat tip to kingken67 for using his brain.
Didn’t league come out and say Ortiz’s failed test wasn’t reliable and he shouldn’t be held to the same standards as the others?? That’s a pretty big statement from the league.
bleedingblue138: Check this out:
amp.usatoday.com/amp/91442256
Ortiz wasn’t found guilty. He tested 10 times a year from 2004 to the end of his career and never once tested positive. Those were his best years. Before that he was a good but not great hitter.
Ortiz tested positive in 2003 in the survey test. See my other comments about that. That you are a Ortiz hater is obvious. That you have no clue what you are talking about is also obvious. But that you would troll is also obvious from your name. Rose admitted to breaking the cardinal rule of the game, the only one that is posted in every clubhouse in MLB, and he then agreed to a permanent ban from the game. Which means he will never be eligible for the HOF. He broke the rules AAND he lied about it.
Brother he was absolutely not tested 10 times per year.
No he didn’t.
Lol
Probably more than that. Like that hack POS from the Boston Globe stated”he was from the Dominican”. Keep hating son
No it’s not proof. The only allegations against Ortiz was the 2009 NY Times piece claiming he was one of the MLB players who tested positive for “something” in the 2003 survey testing. But that 2009 article and accompanying list of players who tested positive contained more player names than there were actual positive tests from 2003, so some of the names on it were incorrect. Secondly, MLB stated that there were substances that returned a positive result in that testing that were not illegal substances. So without knowing definitively whether Ortiz was actually one of the players who returned a positive test and without knowing what specifically he tested positive for taking if he was you have very little in the way of actual proof he took anything illegal.
@ken sosa is calling
again, that test destroyed Arod..
Two commissioners have stated that the survey tests that the Mitchell report based their findings on were unscientific and unreliable. Manfred public ally stated that painting Ortiz as a steroid user based upon those findings was an injustice to Ortiz.
LMAO! Proof of what? They have no idea what he tested positive for. I think speculation is the word you’re looking for.
Ortiz had a positive test that was accidentally made public. Check out the Mitchell Report. Should not be in the HoF.
Actually you should check it out because Ortiz was never named in the Mitchell report
Again, positive of taking what exactly? If you can’t answer that you really have no grounds for saying he shouldn’t be in the HOF.
What did Bonds test positive for?
I never claimed Bonds tested positive of anything. Not have I ever said Bonds shouldn’t be in the HOF. For the record, he should be.
It’s so cute seeing the defenders of Ortiz. They sound just like Ryan Braun’s defenders.
I posted this further down the thread, but thought I’d mention it here given the back and forth debate over the Mitchell Report. According to a Bleacher Report in 2011, Ortiz made a statement a number of years ago confirming his name on that list.
“When he was asked about the allegation, Ortiz had no comment, but later issued a statement confirming that his name had appeared in the Mitchell Report, but not confirming its veracity.”
It should be mentioned that the above quote is from an article that strongly defends Ortiz.
I’m not saying he should, or should not, be in the HOF, or that he took PEDs. Only that if Ortiz says he appeared on the report, I’m inclined to believe him.
syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/757043-mitchell…
I know this FACTUALLY:
1). Ortiz was in the Mitchell Report
2). Ortiz was not included in the Mitchell Report
3). Ortiz failed at least one PED test
4). Ortiz never failed a PED drug test
Maybe YOU should check the Mitchell Report because Ortiz is not mentioned in it. See my links above.
You have NEVER read the Mitchell report, correct?
The Mitchell Report was never released to the public, so how did you read it?
Are all off your comments this stupid or are you just an idiot? Just curious.
Steroids were against rules. Period.
Steroids are against the law, so they don’t have to be part of a professional sports rules.
Bingo!
Neither was Bonds
Bonds was both named in the Mitchell Report and admitted using both steroids and HgH in court.
No he didn’t. That was a wild interpretation on what he said.
As a Red Sox fan, even I think this is ridiculous. Ortiz was DFAed at 27, then was all of a sudden a HOFer. Never played the field in a meaningful capacity. He was caught using steroids in the pre penalty era. Sad day for baseball. The voters are DUMB, and it’s amazing what nice words or just silence gets you. Bonds and Clemens were twice the players Ortiz was, analytically and by the eye, yet they have languished for years while this gets in year one. The league was in on the steroid era, either they all get in and the hall of fame is the hall of cheaters or people wake up.
I’ll never visit the BBHOF again.
Greatest clutch hitter never had a single 7-WAR year. Steroids questions aside, not a HOFer in my book.
BUT, the Sawks current prez is so enamored of Ortiz that he made the Splinter and Yaz into Red Sox nonpersons! socraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2022/01/ted-williams-a…
Yes he did but MLB likes him. He’s an ambassador and that it. His first few years he was not good, just fair.
Proof?
Ummm NYT got the info from a single anonymous source that contradicted the logistics of the test. I would always trust single-source anonymous reporting in a newspaper based in the rival team’s city
Ortiz sucked for years in Minnesota. Career took off when Manny Ramirez taught him where to get steroids.
Regardless of how, where or when he may have started, I keep going back to his age 40 season and believe he was one step ahead of the testing his entire Boston career. I’d rather have Tiant or Evans in the hall wearing a Sox cap. A
He was injured for a couple of his years in Minnesota and still had an .809 OPS for his time there. That isn’t exactly sucking.
ANGEL FAN — Ortiz and Twins’s players and management have REPEATEDLY stated that Ortiz was told to play small ball baseball…Twins’ style… what Ozzie Guillen (White Sox manager) called “Piranha Ball.” The Red Sox nixed that and let Ortiz play baseball the way he wanted to play it. They let him swing for the fences no matter the situation. Whether or not Ortiz took PEDs… I don’t know. No one commenting on this site knows. Anyone who says they do know is lying.
@Steve Garvey’s Son
So failing a PED test that Ortiz himself confirmed failing leaves everyone not knowing that Ortiz used PEDs?
What PED test did he fail? And what drug was it that caused the failure? Until you can answer BOTH of those, I am uninterested in what you have to say.
They wouldn’t have released him even if they didn’t want to pay him. If Ortiz was thought of as being a possible cute all star, the Twins would have traded him and/or there would have been more suites than just Boston and New York.
Many players are released by 2 or more teams before becoming stars.Jose Batista was DFA 3 times. JD was dfa by the Astros.
@Steve Garvey’s Son The Twins drafted a big fat slow guy to play small ball like bunt, steal bases, go first to third, etc.
Why does that only make sense to you?
Exactly. A-Rod never tested positive because he was 10 steps ahead of the testing. Biogenesis founder described in detail how A-rod beat the tests. Testosterone gummies were one of the things that were used
`Newspaper in a rival city` taints an otherwise good comment.
How about Ortiz saying he gets sent his test results in the mail all the time.
You only get the results when you test positive.
I’ll take him at his word.
I didn’t get my results in the mail when I failed my random tests at work. Maybe you’re as uninformed on this topic as you are on every other baseball-related issue.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
oo!oo
Why am I not surprised you failed a test?
Anyway, the MLB testing protocol is clear and very public. You are only notified when you fail.
Wrong on both counts. You should check your halo. Its drooping from the misinformation you are attempting to spread.
@FletcherFan69 It’s Arby’s loss
Blame the FedEx guy, like Lyin Ryan Braun!
Dude, if roids helped get a player inducted then Sosa, Manny, Clemens, Bonds, McGwire, Raffy etc would have been inducted already.
Congrats to Big Papi, well deserved.
They should be
Papi had one of the best last career seasons ever and was certainly tested multiple times throughout the year. He surely tested negative. Congratulations Mr. Ortiz!
So the Mitchell Report is credible enough to keep Sosa out but uncredible enough to let Ortiz in? How does that work?
Ortiz was not named in the Mitchell report.
Nope. No Roid Sux were named in the report filed by Roid Sux employee Mitchell.
And Sosa wouldn’t have been in the Ron Santo report
except Eric Gagne….
Yep, had my reports mixed up. Sosa was also not named in the Mitchell Report. I was thinking of the NYT report. So let me rephrase: the NYT report is credible enough to keep Sosa out but uncredible enough to let Ortiz in?
Say what you want but in my view players like Piazza, Bagwell and now Ortiz are the main reason why others such as McGriff, Evans and Garvey are not. Those players in my view were amongst the best in their time period but their stats pale when compared against those in the PED era.
Everyone loves big poppy. Popularity helps
Tom Emansk1: How can the NYT report be considered evidence of steroid use when they did not reveal what Ortiz supposedly tested positive for in 2003 when they were testing for more things than just steroids?
All I can do is sit down with some popcorn and watch the Ortiz supporters do what they need to do to keep themselves from losing the world they have.
Interestingly, I did the same thing when Ryan Braun had his famous press conference that led to some average Joe being terminated. Always helps to have a good supply of popcorn when reading the comments by supporters of PED users.
TOM —
DAVID ORTIZ WAS NOT NAMED IN THE MITCHELL REPORT!!!!
Yes, I am yelling this. Quit with your uniformed conspiracies.
@Steve Garvey’s Son
DAID ORTIZ FAILED A PED TEST AND HE CONFIRMED THAT HE WAS ON THE LIST OF FAILED PED TESTS!
Yes, I am yelling this. Come to the reality that your hero was not clean. Oh yeah, and Santa Claus is your parents or guardians (not the ones in Cleveland unless you live there).
Hero? I am a Twins fan. I booed Ortiz every time he came to MN.
Why do you keep defending idiots and conspiracy theorists that make false claims that Ortiz was on the Mitchell Report? Is this more of your “alternative facts” approach?
Ortiz was never mentioned in the Mitchell Report.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Basebal…
Marlins. Ortiz failed a survey test in 2003. Unlike the way testing is done today with a solid chain of evidence and testing of a B sample to confirm positive tests, both the B and C samples were destroyed. There is no way to confirm that it was indeed a positive test and both the commissioner at the time and Manfred have both said they believe it was a false positive. Because of failing that test, Ortiz was tested 10 times per year instead of the 3 times other players were. He never tested positive again. His best seasons were ALL after testing began in earnest in 2004. What does that tell you. If you are honest and intelligent it tells you the survey test was a false positive and that he never used steroids after that.
Didn’t Sosa also have a bat scandal?
That’s the amazing part. A former U.S. Senator would put his name on something and no Sox players on it. I guess Manny started using after the report was completed.
Stop with the Mitchell report. Another poster reminded us Mitchell was with the Sox at the time and no Boston player was listed, not even Manny. Does everyone else have COVID and lost their sense of smell? That report stinks and just not being in it is not the same as being clean during the covered time period.
yep. I think it was cork.
Brian Kenney that you? It’s true
@Steve Slow down, breathe, now read. I corrected myself before your yelling came into the equation. So again I ask: why is the NYT credible enough to keep Sosa out, but uncredible enough to let Ortiz in? No conspiracies here, just double standards.
What it tells me is that Ortiz’s numbers were inflated by Fenway!
That’s why we have OPS+ and WAR, both of which are park adjusted.
And, with that? Ortiz never had a 7-WAR year, barely hit 55 WAR and isn’t a HOFer in my book.
Erm, roids got them UN-elected.
Oh, I’m a Cards fan, and on straight stats? Big Mac AIN’T a HOFer, roids aside.
Listen, he ain’t the only one. There are Hall of Famers already in that were PED users, such as Piazza, Bagwell, I-Rod, Pedro Martinez, and probably several more. Tom House even said guys were experimenting back in the 70s. He’ll, Babe Ruth once injected himself with sheep parts or something. Point is, anywhere from 50 – 80% of players used roids back in the 90s & 00s so may as well let em all in.
Literally all the names you named were not in any reports. Its just sort to embarrassing. This is much more about bonds reminding the mouth breathing sports writers of their days being dunked in the toilet than some moral stand.
As a die hard baseball fan, everything baseball does is dated and short term thinking.
Very convoluted reasoning
They didn’t have to be. Anyone with half a brain knows they cheated. The only one that should surprise anyone is Pedro, but I happen to know someone who played with him and told me he tried them at the end of his career. Still counts.
Big fat fail on all those names, and on Ruth from the past.
Pud Galvin reportedly tried stuff like that.
Steroids or not, there’s a reason he’s in and Bonds isn’t.
yeah, hall of fame voting is nothing but a popularity contest!
Visionaries the biggest troll I’ve seen on here in a while
How? Is he wrong? Bonds never tested positive and had so many accolades but he’s not in. Ortiz admittedly tested positive, and while yes he did have a bunch of accolades, he made it first ballot with quite a few less homers. It honestly is a popularity contest. If Bonds was out making friends with writers he’d be in by now
Bonds was both named in the Mitchell Report and admitted in court that he used both steroids and HgH. He claimed he didn’t know what they were, but that doesn’t change the fact that he used them. If you believe that a guy that has a personal chef travel with him because he didn’t trust the team chef to feed him the food he wanted would take injections that he didn’t know exactly what it was, then I have some oceanfront property in Kansas I am sure you will be interested in.
Just amazes me that so many people don’t even remember or have not researched the BALCO investigation
He was press friendly whereas Bonds and Clemens we’re generally not. The hall voting in my view has taken a hit big time with younger voters who vote on metrics instead of their eyes and brain
Hypocrisy among the BBWAA?
Well, Piazza and Pudge are in and they cheated.
Because they cheated and either admitted it or didn’t excessively lie as both Bonds and Clemens did.
So if you are a great nice player you can use steroids and get into the hall. Got it
That doesn’t explain Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa who were also nice.
Quotes from the article.
A significant enough portion of the BBWAA treated those results with sufficient skepticism to push Ortiz across the threshold for election, even as others on the ballot were excluded based on PED ties. A ten-time All-Star, Ortiz won seven Silver Slugger awards and was a key piece of three World Series teams. While Ortiz never won an MVP award, he appeared on ballots in eight separate seasons — including the aforementioned five consecutive top-five finishes. An icon in Red Sox’ franchise history, he’s now cemented as one of the greatest players in MLB history. MLBTR congratulates Ortiz — who’ll be enshrined alongside Era Committee inductees Buck O’Neil, Jim Kaat, Tony Oliva, Gil Hodges, Bud Fowler and Minnie Miñoso next summer — on his induction.
Hall of fame officially lost all credibility. Letting this guy and not bonds clemens and even pete rose is a joke. He was always right in the middle of the steroids.
Billy Wagner needs to be in
Papelbon too.
Wagner would have been a 1st or 2nd ballot had he been a Yankee.
A lot of guys would. If Fred McGriff and Jeff Kent were smart, they would’ve went to the Yankees or Red Sox at some point in their careers, and they would’ve been in.
Wagner was lights out for a decade and a half, belongs in the hall. Schilling was 11-2 in the post season and struck out 3,000 batters, belongs in the hall. Barry Bonds, Rodger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, Mark Mcguire and any know steriod user who contributed a major part to “saving baseball” after the 1994-1995 players strike also deserves to be in a special part of the hall stating they helped bring money back to the sport and also mention how these guys got the rules changed because they were to good while doping that MLB banned it and started dulling out suspensions because of Bonds 4 straight MVP awards at age 36 plus? That’s where there story belongs in the hall of fame, tell it. Don’t let em forgot when a kid finds on baseball reference 70 years from now if they don’t nuke us all first that Barry Bonds has the 4th highest war all time and why he wasn’t elected in a decade on the ballot?
Wow!!! I thought Rolen would.
I think Rolen will next year and then Helton the following.
Helton also took steroids.
they all did.
Who said Helton took steroids?
I’m sure he will, eventually.
Yeah. Rolen has time. He’ll get there.
Rolen will next year, it’s almost a lock he does? I laugh cause David Ortiz was with 50 war Scott Rolen was worth 70 and has been on the ballot going on 5 years now? Ortiz had absolutely unreal playoff numbers I get it, but Scott Rolen almost fell off his first year of eligibility? How? You look at his numbers and how? I just think what they would look like had he not had on going shoulder issues, and knowing that he did for almost ten years and still did what he did? Jesus christ tough crowd
Good riddance to the guys coming off the ballot
Have to agree @bucsfan0004 – sure there’ll be endless Mitchell reports references to Ortiz but I can’t help feeling that even the pious BBWAA got this right.
I suppose it’s a good thing Ortiz was never listed in the Mitchell report then.
With 10 years to be on the ballot, the voters in my view got it wrong rushing Ortiz in on the first ballot. I wish the Hall would force newly enshrined players to first take a lie detector test. While not admissible in a court of law, it is in the court of public opinion.
From a 2011 Bleacher Report, Ortiz himself stayed that he was on gone Mitchell report
“When he was asked about the allegation, Ortiz had no comment, but later issued a statement confirming that his name had appeared in the Mitchell Report, but not confirming its veracity.”
syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/757043-mitchell…
My apologies for all the typos. I’m terrible at doing this stuff on my phone.
“One, I have already contacted the players association to confirm if this report is true. I have just been told that the report is true. Based on the way I have lived my life, I am surprised to learn I tested positive. Two, I will find out what I tested positive for. And, three, based on whatever I learn, I will share this information with my club and the public.”
That is the quote in the article that you keep linking. That is the quote that the author MIScharacterizes as ‘Ortiz confirming his name had appeared in the Mitchell report.’ Maybe you should read the article too. Ortiz is not referring to the Mitchell Report, he is referring to the preliminary list that the MLB did. There is probably a reason you can’t find any other articles stating such a thing.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Basebal…
Ortiz is NOT in the Mitchell Report
He played how many years and only tested positive as part of preliminary trials where something like Ryan Braun could have happened? I agree with Trevor Pluffee steriod use shouldn’t keep you out of the hall, those who used steriods should be in a special part of the hall of fame each having there own space stating how there steriod use forever changed the rules of baseball because they were to good while using them. 1998 homerun race should be a part of it, that brought money back to baseball after the player strike saving the sport? That’s part of baseball history like it or not and the WHOLE story should be told.
A”S fan:
Quit your Qanon conspiracy theory. Ortiz was NOT named in the Mitchell Report!
@Steve Garvey’s Son
You’re right. Ortiz WAS on the list of 103 players that failed a PED sample test.
I know I am right.
The Mitchell report was supposed to be objective but it didn’t include one Boston player. Coincidence? I’m a Sox fan but with what I know of Manny and believe with certain others, the report in my view should be considered based on who is listed but ignored if the person is not.
bucsfan – The tainted players will get in eventually, veterans committee.
LOL. You do realize that the Veterans committee members HATE the players that are accused of cheating, right?
Doesn’t matter. They’ll get in eventually.
I don’t think that’s totally fair, but it is what it is.
I wasn’t too keen on this line either: “A significant enough portion of the BBWAA treated those results with sufficient skepticism to push Ortiz across the threshold for election, even as others on the ballot were excluded based on PED ties”.
That’s an overly simplistic way of describing why certain others were excluded. People love to obsess with test results on this subject, but the fact is that Bonds was a steroid user to a body altering degree – that’s a form of evidence too. Both he and Clemens, already all-time greats, then went on to do things no other player has ever done, Clemens enjoying unreasonable peak longevity as a pitching and Bonds basically comically ripping up the record book.
Bonds and Clemens, rightly or wrongly (I would vote to have them in) seem to be excluded both because their steroid use by all evidence was massive and was a resort of great players who didn’t need them. It’s also worth pointing out that a guy went to prison for the sake of not testifying against Bonds, which may be a character strike against him.
I don’t think the voters have ever treated this as “if you used steroids, you’re out, period”. They seem to have a wider way of factoring it in.
Let’s go!
Suck it, Bonds. We won’t worry about you getting a fat head over getting elected to the Hall of Fame.
Is this really the thread to discuss a fat headed cheater?
ortiz’ head is obviously bigger!
Cal Ripken had a big head. So did Pete Rose. And Nolan Ryan. And Derek Jeter.
Bruce Bochy’s was the biggest of all. The difference between those guys and Bonds? Their caps stayed the same size throughout their careers. Bonds grew 4 sizes.
Schilling not being in is a joke. (There’s plenty of other a-holes, racists, and just bad people in the hall.)
Vet committee will vote him in anyways.
Go to Cooperstown sometime. Plenty of his junk is in there…. the sock, cleats, etc
I like how Verducci said Schilling’s controversy came from “hate speech” during his pompous, self-important speech on MLBN right before the results were announced. Meanwhile Jay Jaffe and other writers said they wouldn’t vote for Schilling because they “can’t give him a platform to spread misinformation.” Jaffe and the other writers are able to tell the truth–they wouldn’t give a big Trump guy the satisfaction of being recognized for his achievements–because their audiences are much smaller and more ideologically homogenous than MLBN’s TV audience, but Verducci had to frame Schilling as a vehement racist in order to trick people who aren’t terminally-online leftists into understanding why an 80-WAR player doesn’t deserve to make it in.
It’s incredible how out of touch these writers are with the average fan. Remember kids, the only reason people become journalists is because they can’t learn to code.
Shows how much influence the liberal media has. As with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, some guys don’t care if they get in or not. Schilling has said as much.
Google Schilling’s comments. If I repeat them even vaguely I will be blocked on this site. He is guilty of hate speech. He will get into the Hall of Fame but his punishment is to not get in by the voters. Love watching him whine and squirm and squeal about “the libs” and the “liberal media.” No, this is about his own hateful words.
I’m well aware of them….google the history of cap anson, Lou Gehrig, or Ty Cobb sometime. According to you, we need to rip those out of the hall of fame yesterday.
Journalists used to report facts. Now they are into fiction and writing crap to make themself the story along with their opinion which is often shared by a minority of their readers.
First Ballot results showed Carl Yastrzemski got HIGHER PERCENTAGE of votes than Ted Williams (among others like Musial, Mantle)
Higher than Williams !!! The reason given to me by handful of writers who have answered me over the years….the voting writers DID NOT LIKE Williams.
He of the .344 lifetime batting average, 521 HR
He of the two tours of military service during his prime.
They didn’t like him, so to hell with his baseball accomplishments.
But they liked YAZ. Not because he bought and brought Coors beer back to Boston after road trips… they liked him
First, journalists and sports writers are not exactly the same. Sports writers are a type of journalist but not necessarily the ones who put their hearts and souls into investigative journalism. Some sports writers do a great job, so your one-size-fits-all verbal abuse is way out of line.
Second, Schilling showed that he is a racist from his tweets and retweets.
Third, Schilling clearly meets the metrics for the Hall of Fame. I would vote for his admission.
Completely agreed. Top 20 all time in strikeouts, he needs to be in
Yeah, I hate Schilling’s public comments, but the guy deserves to be in the Hall—just like Bonds, Clemens and Rose. Oritiz on the first ballot? The HOF has become a joke.
What about letting in a 541 HR player who hit most of those after offense slowed down again, who also was a huge postseason performer, who contributed to bringing three titles to a franchise that had been without one for the better part of a century, and who was a city and Hispanic player/fan icon…is a joke?
If a relief pitcher can get every single vote (as I think he should have), it’s laughable to take issue with a guy with a profile like that barely making it in on the first vote.
Schilling asked the BBWAA not to vote for him this year & enough voters honored his request. I wouldn’t have voted him in because his character is highly suspect & he has ZERO integrity
But David Ortiz has integrity? He took steroids, bet on baseball games with his buddy Monga and was laundering money with a drug lord in the DR that almost got him murdered. Super chill guy tho.
Schilling is a racist and a moron.
But he showed integrity as a player, his shortcomings involved words not deeds, so yes, i would have voted for him.
I think your Manny is more of a moron. PEDs thrice.
Schilling isn’t racist, he’s just on a rival political party that people disagree with.
Schilling should be in the HOF. But no one can take his comments as simply political. And “hanging” journalists? C’mon.
I like Big Papi and he deserves to be there, but this guy did roids too. How can Bonds not get in and Ortiz can? I don’t understand. A clutch DH slugger who cheated gets in over the best hitter of all time who also cheated.
How many games was Ortiz suspends for?
How many games was Bonds suspended for?
You know Bonds wasnt ever suspended right?
he had never even tested positive.
How many was Bonds suspended for?
Never tested positive for steroids, so never was suspended for testing positive
Let’s be honest, how many today watch the induction ceremonies like in the past? We argue but the reality is the HOF means more today to the players because of the money that can be made off it.
If you would do some research, you would see the difference.
Bonds is a known massive steroid user. He never tested positive on an official test, but contrary to the shallow thinking of many people a test isn’t the only way to prove someone used something. There is a mountain of evidence of many different sorts that Bonds didn’t just use steroids, but used them big time.
Ortiz is neither proven to have used anything nor is he exonerated. He has a grand total of one item to his entire PED slate, and that is the unofficial test results that were neither conducted under proper (for proof) conditions nor were clear on what they even tested for. It has also been noted that it is widely understood that those results contained false positives. That test happened as Ortiz was entering his prime, rather than at the close of his career, and he did all the big things he did while being tested with nary a single positive test or anything else to point to him using PEDs.
Bonds used and used big. Ortiz, we have no idea. Doesn’t make him innocent, but punishing something who is far from proven guilty would…well, be the kind of thing the trolls here would do. There are a lot of low people who love to declare a lot of false things in these comments every time Ortiz is mentioned. It’s pretty pathetic.
P.S. Bonds should be in, IMO.
P.P.S. Part of the problem with Bonds is that his massive cheating has led to him getting called “the greatest hitter who ever lived” by folks like you. He was an all time great player, but only his clear and obvious massive cheating that led to broken video game results pumped him up to the superlative accolade. He should be a HOFer and at the same time the written record should make it clear that his steroid years deserve no special accolades.
Your P.P.S. is debatable. I heard Bob Costas too. Bonds had historic numbers for years. I agree that his numbers skyrocketed during the years many people consider his steroid years, but you can say the same thing about Ortiz. His numbers drastically improved AFTER he tested positive. My point is not to besmirch Ortiz, who I feel deserves to get in albeit not on the first ballot. My point is that MLB is sending a very contradictory message here.
Ortiz only reached 50 homeruns in a season once.
Crazy this PED user gets in, but much better players didn’t?
Crazy that some people have such poor character that they are declaring him a PED user when that’s far from proven.
The hang up voters have with the likes of Bonds and Clemens should not be held against Ortiz. If they’re making a mistake with the first two, let’s at least limit the extent of the mistake.
I’m using facts, you are a Boston fanboy.
To be fair he also bet on his own games and was assassinated (attempted) by his money laundering Dominican drug lord business associate. I wonder if the same investigator working that case of “mistaken identity” is the same guy he put on his 2003 positive PED test?
What the? “money laundering . . .” You just making shiit up. It was the husband of his girlfriend. Get a clue.
This is the married girlfriend showing up at the hospital right after the shooting and fighting with Ortiz’s wife. youtube.com/watch?v=Gh2ywy4AewI.
No proof of ‘Steroids’. Sorry, being mentioned in a news article for steroid use, along with every big name player at the time, doesn’t make it a fact. I never even heard of ‘Gambling’ allegation. And completely wrong on ‘Money Laundering’ involved in shooting. I’ll give you ‘Philanderer’, but way off on the other three.
Stop getting your news from the National Enquirer.
Disgusting. I’ll never care about the Hall of Fame again.
The implication of you finding it disgusting is that you are an immoral person whose opinion on the subject is worthless. That’s a shame.
And you’re a homer fan who’s hero is a cheater and a fraud. All of Ortiz’s accomplishments are what’s worthless.
He’s immoral because he doesn’t like the HOF anymore? That seems like a bit of a stretch. I’m not saying I agree with him, but “immoral”???
Absolute joke. 55 PED created WAR over 20 years is not a HOF’er. Not in value, not in the way the value was created.
This is a new low in baseball history.
This guy mad
Nah. This guy has standards.
Same WAR as Ian Kinsler and obvious PED use does not equal HOF.
It “obviously” does.
One-third of Hall ballot casters are trolls
Possibly the worst election I’ve seen in years. Don’t get me wrong, Ortiz definitely a HOF, now in the hell are Billy Wagner, Andruw Jones, Barry Bonds, Curt Schilling, and Roger Clemens not elected? I get Jones tailed off hitting wise in the second half of his career, but he’s debatably the best defensive CF ever. If he doesn’t get in, then guys like Ozzie smith shouldn’t be since they weren’t ever good hitters. What a joke.
Yanks: Did you see Andrew Jones play when he was briefly with the White Sox?
Did you see Andruw Jones play for the Braves when he recorded 10 straight gold gloves, recorded the highest dWAR by a CF in history and had the second highest zone rating in MLB history behind Brooks Robinson? Not to mention 464 career home runs and a higher career WAR than 57 current Hall of Famers
Jones was a beast.
Obviously the Hall doesn’t value defense much. Or as much as I feel they should.
Andruw Jones was awful by the time he turned 30. He became fat, lazy and awful, did the guy ever have .300 hitting season? He in no way is HOFer.
Zerb
Yes, in 2000 he hit 0.303.
Andruw Jones was an elite defender, not just statistically, but the kind of guy whose presence changed the way offenses game-planned. Also he hit 368 home runs through his age 30 season, more than Mike Trout.
Yeah, Trout’s clearly better but Trout is probably the greatest position player of the last 80 years if not ever. That Andruw is in the same conversation means HoF.
Ted:
Tell me why Mike Trout is greater than Willie Mays. Most likely you are young enough to have only seen the last couple years of Mays, if that.
Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Mickey Mantle, Henry Aaron.
Try Mike Trout is the best position player of the past twenty years, and that his edge is waning due to injuries. At least you will have an argument, though I would disagree and argue for Pujols.
Ozzie had 2460 hits, 580 stolen bases, 15 All-Star games, and 13 gold gloves. Let’s direct that angst in a different direction.
The save stat is one of the dumbest stats ever invented.
Used to be very important until LaRussa and Eckersley changed the game with one inning saves. Eck deserves to be in for his body of work (starting and closing) but many times today, the 7th or 8th inning is the important one. Rollie Fingers and Bruce Sutter pitched three innings when such was needed.
The writers have really made something that should be fun just an absolute gong show every year.
Happy for big Papi. Glad Bonds and company were left on the dump heap.
Yes, PED users who were actually good all around players and actually played without PEDs don’t deserve to get in.
A PED user who was a one trick pony with a far lower career value deserves in, though.
Makes perfect sense.
Weird you are ok with Ortiz and his PED use, but not Bonds or Clemens.
I’m perfectly fine talking about them.
If you take the position you don’t care about PEDs then they should be in before Ortiz. They were far better players.
If you take the position PED players should not get in, then neither should Ortiz.
But to elect the least valuable PED poster boy of the group defies logic.
Clemens and Bonds were consistently jerks to the media/writers who actually vote for the HOF. Perhaps that’s why Ortiz gets a speech and Bonds/Clemens don’t. Not to mention the PED users who laid low and got in… I-Rod, Bagwell, Piazza – they weren’t jerks either. People need to retire the whole PED nonsense. If Bonds came clean in a one-on-one interview, he’d be in. Simple as that.
That worked well for McGwire….
If you’re saying the reason a player like Bonds isn’t in is because he was an A-hole during interviews is even more ridiculous than voting for Papi but not Bonds because of PEDs.
That’s how far too many people are. Why do voters think Ortiz should get in first ballot but Bonds shouldn’t get in at all? Bonds is the only member of the 500-500 club, and received gold gloves in left field, meanwhile Ortiz was a DH. Makes zero sense.
Pre-Steroid Barry Bonds was so much more valuable than David Ortiz it should not even be a question that Barry should be in. It’s not even close who deserves a plaque more. Even Barry’s Dad, Bobby Bonds and his 57.9 WAR + 3 GG”s and literally opened the door to a few decades of focus on 30-30 should be ahead of Ortiz and his 55.3 WAR as a DH.
Or how someone like Bagwell having to wait years, while being vastly superior to Ortiz.
It hasn’t been established that Ortiz was a PED cheat. You can have suspicions but you don’t really know.
This is the issue with trying to consider other elements beyond what happened on the field: it inevitably becomes inconsistent, and too much power rests in the hands of voter’s personal preferences and affinity for particular players. That’s why you get ‘nice guys’ like Ortiz in and ‘not-nice guys’ like Bonds who objectively had far better careers are left out. That’s why you get players like Cobb in but Schilling is out.
Honestly, I don’t give an eph about any voter’s reasoning for voting or not voting for a particular player if it weighs off-field ‘indiscretions’ over what the player achieved, and any voter who does that should be stripped of their right to vote. It’s the baseball hall of fame, not the morality hall of fame. Of course, because my perception of morality could differ vastly from others, but you know what never changes? What happened on the field. So leave it at that.
What happened on the field was a career WAR in line with Ian Kinsler’s and much lower than Jim Edmonds and Bobby Abreu.
The fact that WAR was accumulated thanks to PEDs only weakens his case.
He was famous. He had a cool nickname. ESPN carries Boston’s bathwater and Boston cares not about integrity or sportsmanship. I get it.
Man, this is a pretty low day for the hall, which is saying a lot considering what a joke it, it’s voters, and it’s process has become.
Only 77%? that’s a little low for what he accomplished.
For his first ballot that’s fair. He was a DH after all.
He was a DH. Bonds never was elected in 10 years on the ballot, despite having gold gloves and being the lone member of the 500-500 club
The difference is Bonds cheated. Did Ortiz ever get caught or even chest at all?
Yes Ortiz did test positive. Another piece of evidence, was Ortiz’s production dipped when the league began testing and punishing people for taking steroids. Bonds’s production never dipped, in fact his production rose. Prove me wrong
If you read the article, Ortiz’s production actually got significantly better after the league began testing, and the test he failed was likely for a substance that wasn’t banned by MLB at that time.
Bonds has nothing to do with it. One would think he would get in for being an all time great before he clearly began his steroid use (circa 1999), but for some voters that was a hang up.
But why should a lesser, still very HOF worthy player who has only the slightest whisper of PED use be punished for the treatment an unquestioned huge PED user has been given. They’re two different things.
I think the issue you might not appreciate is outside of Sox fans, it’s not “the slightest whisper of PED use” as you feel. Many, if not most, believe he was a steroid user.
Ortiz was a 108 OPS+ hitter over his first 1700 PA through his age 26 season before then being cut. He also started to have a downturn in his early 30’s before having another career resurgence at the end of his career, with his final 5 years being as good as any other 5 year span of his career. The career arc looks like a PED users and this combined with his name being linked to the failed survey test is why so many feel he was also a PED user.
He should’ve gotten 77% on the second ballot but he treats the geeky little journalists special so we’re here
55.3 war gets into hall?
Yep. You know that war isn’t the only stat, right?
And playoffs, and championships, and iconic status. The Hall considers all those things, in case you didn’t know.
How much WAR have the HOF RPs accumulated? So should that position just be ignored?
Most of those relievers probably shouldn’t be in the Hall.
Playoffs and championships are a team accomplishment, not an individual player accomplishment.
Ortiz 55.3- Pettite 60.2!
Mariano Rivera had a has a 56 WAR and if papi did roids then so did Rivera. Seeing as we’re spreading lies.
If a player is popular and has supercool nickname, you can overlook steroids. Smh
If a player only has one tiny whisper of PED use that very easily could be false, yes, one should overlook the possibility that still exists that he used PEDs.
What country do you come from where people aren’t innocent until proven guilty? Or are you one of those trolls too ignorant to know that Ortiz isn’t actually close to having been proven a PED user?
The only thing being overlooked is the slew of allegations being made by folks who apparently don’t understand that it’s never been confirmed that Ortiz was a steroids cheat.
Dumb Hitters or as many call them Designated Hitters DO NOT BELONG in the Hall of Fame because they are a 1 dimensional member of a team. I would have never voted for Ortiz or any other only Dumb Hitter.
If they didn’t have the DH, Ortiz would have played the field, and might have even been fine at it. Boston had no reason to do that given that it had to use the DH. Why should that be held against him on principle?
DHs deserve to have a higher hitting bar for admission, but keeping them out entirely seems pretty silly.
HoF standards are officially a complete joke.
Exactly
the biggest cabeza in baseball that actually grew during his mlb time!
Bond’s melon and neck were quite large, almost looked inflated. Papi was big all over.
The baseball writers get hoards of information about true PED users and vote appropriately. The Mitchell Report was not a measurement of who used steroids. It was designed to be a litmus test of potential substances that could be banned by MLB (including supplements) in upcoming seasons. The tests also had significant error rates. Anyone who bases whether or not someone cheated off of the Mitchell Report is uninformed and the writers proved that with these results.
Congratulations, David on this well deserved honor!!!
you seem to be a reasonable person. just take one look at him and his behavior during his time in mlb.
“The baseball writers get hoards of information about true PED users and vote appropriately”
Not really any more than we get. Most of it is public record. If you’re taking a hard stance on PEDs, Ortiz does not belong in there. If you’re willing to look past PEDs, Ortiz and Bonds belong in there. This was a terrible job by the voters. Ortiz’s personality and media presence allowed the voters to look past his problematic 2003 test.
Ortiz belongs in there IMO, but the fact that Bonds is not in there as well…I can’t respect the HoF anymore. It’s a joke.
Where in the Mitchell Report did is say Papi tested positive for PEDs? It didn’t say that about him or anyone else in the report (of which there were over 150 players named). They didn’t just test for steroids. They tested for over the counter supplements, andro, etc..No one was ever identified as testing positive for Steriods or HGH so no one has any idea who tested positive for what and which tests were false positives. People like Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod all have mountains of evidence against them regarding buying banned substances and/or getting them delivered to their wives. Not once did Ortiz’s name show up in any of those investigations, nor was he on the BALCO list. He was tested as much as anyone in baseball and never failed a test once testing was put in place. I’m sorry but the Mitchell Report does not differentiate between substances so no one on that report should ever be judged solely by being named in that report.
One other thing about the McGuires, Bonds, Clemens, Sosas, etc. Did you notice their body types? They had muscles on top of muscles and rarely got hurt. Big Papi was nicknamed Big Sloppy by some of his teammates because of his Prince Fielder physique. If he were taking steroids, he would have been jacked, or at least have had a body like Nelson Cruz. Big Papi was also plagued by injuries over his career, unlike the rest of the known users. So if you want to base your thoughts solely on the Mitchell Report, feel free to do so, but the baseball writers got this right and I’m very happy for him.
do you know that a lot of players have added girth to cover rip muscles?
So we vote based on body types now? Ridiculous. Fair or not, Ortiz tested positive in 2003. Google it. 100% positive. I’m sorry but it’s hypocritical to take a hard stance against PEDs and vote Ortiz. You can’t have it both ways. Ortiz definitely deserves to be in there, but so does Bonds.
Weird that you can tell based off of body type because I could have sworn 100 pound Dee Gordon was caught juicing?
Yeah and Piazza deserves to be in there too right? SMH…Bonds will get in, by a group that actually isn’t made up of a bunch of loony journalists
Bonds cannot and will not ever get in. This was his last chance. Hence some outrage.
VonPurpleHayes – The veterans committee will vote him in.
The HoF will be a sad joke until Schilling gets in. His body of work is clearly good enough.
Schilling is never getting in. This was his last chance. No Schilling, Bonds or Clemens ever. Which is wild.
Veterans Committee will vote Schilling in.
Why Ortiz and not Bonds? Easy answer. The media loved Ortiz…the same media didn’t feel the same about Bonds. Of course I think Rose, who’s a jerk, should also be in. Giamatti held a vendetta against him.
Bonds was caught and admitted to use.
Ortiz was accused anonymously and never tested positive and no real proof was brought forward. You don’t see the difference?
No, you have it reversed. Bonds never tested positive, nor did he tell anybody he used steroids. Ortiz is a known PED user.
Bonds was stealing bases and hitting homers his entire career. Had a smooth swing and knew baseball very well. Was making crazy plays in left and earning gold gloves. Made the 500-500 club. Won multiple MVP’s. There’s even more I’m not mentioning. Ortiz hit a lot of homers, but he was a DH. He was supposed to. He was never stealing bases, getting gold gloves, and definitely didn’t win as many MVP’s. Bonds was hitting a ton of homers before his alleged use of steroids(which again he never admitted to).
I have no opinion on Bonds in the HoF, I also don’t think steroids are a magic potion that make a great baseball player however it is a competitive advantage.
However he did admit to use after his personal trainer ratted on him. Ortiz has never admitted and has never tested positive, he was accused anonymously.
Hmm…mountains of evidence against Bonds from BALCO, written orders for steroid creams, etc. in his name along with masking agents, etc. And then look at his body changes from Pitt to SF. I’d say there’s more than enough evidence against Bonds including sworn testimony.
What substance did Ortiz ever test positive for? You can sway me if you tell me there is a positive test showing steroid use or HGH use, but there isn’t one. Again, the tests used for the volunteer screenings including everything like over the counter GNC supplements which everyone in baseball used until certain ingredients were deemed illegal by MLB. What substance did Ortiz test positive for?
Ortiz tested positive in 2003. Quick Google search will tell you that.
Bonds was a known PED user, Ortiz was not. Don’t twist things up.
A known PED User versus a suspected PED User who tested positive. The first one had incredible numbers. The second one was a DH with solid numbers, but nowhere near the first. I think the voters are sending a confusing message here. And I think Bonds is becoming a fall guy for the steroid era which is a bit unfair. You either take a hard message against PEDs or you don’t. The voters want it both ways because Ortiz is a media-friendly guy.
But, there’s no proof of Ortiz’s use of steroids. He was mentioned in an article that listed many, many other names in MLB.
Your logic is: A convicted murderer was sentenced to life, so anyone accused of murderer should get life, without a trial. There is no “confusing message”: If you are found guilty of steroid use you are banned, if not you are not banned. Really straightforward.
If we all accept Bonds was on roids and realize Ortiz put up better numbers than Bonds in his last couple of years, how is that possible without juice?
Was Ortiz so vastly more talented than Bonds he could out slug the juiced up version at age 40?
Or is common sense not allowed on top of the leaked test and Ortiz saying he’s received multiple test results in the mail?
Your analogy doesn’t work. Ortiz literally tested positive, something Bonds has never done.
If you want to use a murder analogy: Bonds is OJ Simpson. A guy who was never convicted, but most people know did it. Ortiz is someone who was convicted, but in many people’s eyes wrongly convicted.
Piazza is sitting in the Hall, he admitted to use, and?
Bonds was NOT caught, never tested positive, never suspended.. Ortiz DID test positive. “https://sports.yahoo.com/opinion-not-electing-barry-bonds-110059241.html?src=rss” …. Research done by a highly respected sports writer, Your opinion gains you no credibility.
He was caught or suspended because it wasn’t in the mlb rule book at the time. That’s a pretty big technicality.
Are you suggesting that Bonds didn’t use PEDs? We all know he did, so what difference does it make? We can suspect Ortiz but we don’t really know.
Actually Bonds has never admitted use but there is far more evidence that he did use.
There is a huge difference between Ortiz and Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro etc. There was overwhelming evidence that the non Ortiz group used steroids there is only the unanimous test that we still don’t even know what they tested for and it also sounds like there numerous false positives.
Ortiz was surely tested numerous times in his career after the Mitchell report and never tested positive or was swept up in any of the steroids scandals that others were.
Congratulations David Ortiz only he knows if he knowingly used steroids the same as any other player that played in that era but the fact remains the unanimous Mitchell test should not keep anyone out of the hall of fame especially when they haven’t even said what substances were tested for.
Sosa is the only other hall of fame caliber guy that only had the Mitchell report and is probably unfairly being grouped in but then again he was pretty much done when all the testing protocols were adopted so that is the difference between Ortiz and Sosa.
So someone robs a bank, gets caught, and admits it. Another robs bank, gets caught, but doesn’t admit it. Same offense, different result with “Big Poppy” because he admitted it?
Bonds was not “caught and admitted use.” Where in god’s name do you make up such nonsense. At least get your facts right if your’re going to spread them in this forum.
Easy answer: people with functioning brains know the difference between a proven massive steroid user (Bonds) and a player with only one questionable piece of evidence on his PED record (Ortiz). Savvy?
True Statements:
1. David Ortiz only failed PED test is questionable. Per Rob Manfred “Even if your name was on that list (of 104) it’s entirely possible that you were not a positive,”
2. David Ortiz was a 55.3 WAR one tool player.
3. Average HOF 1B = 66 WAR, 42.4 7 Year Peak WAR
4. David Ortiz DH/1B = 55.3 WAR, 35.2 7 Year Peak WAR
5. First Basemen with higher WAR & higher Peak WAR than David Ortiz include John Olerud, Will Clark, Dick Allen, & Darrell Evans
6. Three of the guys named above were removed after their first ballot due to less than 5% of the vote, and Allen peaked at 18.9%
This just in: the Astros trash can was also narrowly elected to the Hall.
Better chance then Beltran next year
Ortiz’s PED accusation has no teeth and was more of a hit job. It shouldn’t be a cloud over his achievements.
Schilling not getting is a damn joke. If we all had to agree with someone’s politics for them to be a HOFer there would be 20 people in the hall. Stick to on field revie and impact to the game, I have no interest what a journalist thinks of someone’s character because it’s complete subjective and not relevant to their baseball career.
Bonds and Clemens should take pride in the fact that they are TOO GOOD FOR THE HALL OF FAME!
If they were just great, they’d be in, just like the rest of mediocre steroid cheats (Pudge, Pedro, Papi) but they were epic, once in a life time talents. Hall of Fame my ass…
Greatest players in their era do not get in. The two guys who SAVED BASEBALL never even sniffed the Hall. Joke
I guess you’re right, actually. Pete Rose is right there with em too
I don’t think you can put Rose in with Bonds or Clemens because Rose has a life time ban from baseball, neither Bonds or Clemens do. Also, neither Bonds or Clemens were ever punished in any way in regards to their suspected steroid use.
Also, I cannot get over Rose’s pedophilia.
Roses’s pedophilia? Where did you read that?
Ok, we’re going to ignore that you just made up Rose and his “pedophilia.”
Yes you are correct about how I probably shouldn’t be grouping Rose with those two, but my point is that Rose deserves to be in the Hall too. I don’t really view gambling as something that should warrant someone’s lifetime ban, unless they’re betting against their team. Rose was gambling in support of his team because he had confidence in them. He didn’t influence the outcome of the game. Now that that’s out of the way, let’s talk about Rose as a player. He didn’t gamble as a player, and ended up breaking records, which he still holds, in career AB’s, career PA’s, career hits, career singles, and career times on base. Rose was also a player coach, even the most recent to do it. Rose was one of the smartest players in baseball during his career, and I know this doesn’t really relate to his lifetime ban but point is he was a great player. He deserves to be in the Hall.
nydailynews.com/sports/all-time-hits-leader-pete-r…
Pedro? Steroids? Mediocre? Is this a different “Pedro” you’re talking about?
In a comments section full of ignorance, throwing Pedro in like that might take the cake. Apologies if that is some other Pedro.
The evidence against Bonds and Clemens has been overwhelming. There is no such hard evidence that Ortiz consistently cheated. Why is this so hard for some to understand? It’s a big difference.
Here is my prediction:,Next year’s Hall of Fame induction? Fred McGriff ( via Modern Game Veterans Committee) should be a certainty, and Scott Rolen a possibility. Schilling? Maybe in the future ( not now). Bonds, Clemens, Sosa etc)? Never
So much hypocrisy on both sides of the steroid argument.
Not really. There is a crap ton of ignorance on the troll side of the internet, however.
Dwight Evans. Lou Whitaker, too.
Evans is not a Hall of Famer. Very good? Yes. Great? No. Whitaker and especially McGriff yes.
Dwight Evans is rough. If he saw him play you said this guy is a future hall of fMer but when looking at his career numbers it’s hmm. Whitiker and mcgriff are way overdue.
Dwight Evans 67.1 WAR .127 OPS+ 8 GG’s and one of the best outfield arms vs
David Ortiz 55.3 WAR 141 OPS+ and a DH
Dewey is a deserving Hall of Famer.
YES! Faith rewarded but still upset Schilling isn’t in.
Schilling, Wagner, and Jones should have been elected as well. It’s kind of disappointing
Congrats to big Papi
Gets cut by the Twins at 27. No one wants him. Takes PEDs and becomes a Hall of Famer. What a success story.
If he took PEDs it would have been before his breakout, not afterward (when there was actually testing). And how did those PEDs magically sustain for over a decade?
You seem like a pretty crummy person.
@redsonu571 wow, you’re pretty ignorant. The benefits of steroid use do not stop right after use.
bbc.com/news/science-environment-24730151
Halo, you can repeat your assertions and accusations all you want, but you don’t really know. You’re assuming.
I don’t really care whether or not he got in.
I’m just glad no one else did.
To me that’s the odd part.
Either we’re cool with PEDs now so Ortiz should have been joined by Bonds and Clemens to form a Super PEDs class.
or we’re not cool with PEDs so nobody gets in this year.
Complete lack of logic by the Hall
Arod, Bonds and Clemens should all get the same pct of votes.
They all took PEDs. Bonds and Clemens admitted, but they took the same defense everyone did, which is ignorance.
No one actually believes them.
These voters are a sorry lot.
Ortiz somehow evaded positive tests when they actually tested and had punishments for it. That’s probably how they justify it in their minds.
The lack of logic is only with the people here who are confused as you are.
Ortiz has never been exonerated, but he isn’t remotely proven as a PED user either. It’s an inconvenient fact for many here.
Other players are known PED users, and that gets a different treatment, right or wrong. But it’s different, and that’s the long and short of it.
Here is my problem with Curt Schilling. He acted like TO ( Terrill Owens) when it came to the Hall of Fame ( acting like a baby because he was not elected). For that reason he does not deserve it at least for another decade
He deserved it before it got to that point when he said those things. He’s a tool bag, a big one, but one of the best tool bags who pitched in mlb.
Hall of Famers should be judged by what they did on the field…period.
Lol we know he did PEDs… and yet Bonds and Clemens are not in? MLB needs to throw out the current voter pool. Ortiz used PEDs but you ‘like’ him. Idk how you have a HOF without two Top-5 all time hitters/pitchers. Like I won’t go to the HOF again in my lifetime but it’s just one more idiotic MLB-ism that makes me watch less. Look if your oldest demographic dies, and your middle age demographic loses interest, and your youth never gains interest, the sport is going to become irrelevant and honestly by 2035 I doubt any major network shows games streaming or otherwise and the money dries up. And I grew up playing and loving the sport.
Is there anything barring an elected member of the Hall of Fame from playing baseball again? Obviously unlikely, but is there a rule anywhere that would prevent David Ortiz from suiting up and playing some DH if the opportunity presented itself?
Ortiz isn’t the first PED user to get in, and he won’t be the last. Fans (like me) who draw a line at usage will just have to get used to it. During this time of CBA negotiations, we are reminded that baseball is a business, Manfred and Co think it’s good business to have Big Papi in and enough writers agreed. Case closed. The real injustice going forward isn’t having Ortiz in the Hall, it’s keeping out anyone with a fact-set similar to Ortiz…namely, tested positive on the 2003 survey and nothing more. There’s no moral justification for keeping any of those guys out. That still leaves Manny and A-Rod on the outside…but we will need to take a second look at others. Hearsay can’t count anymore, especially when Manfred went out of his way to deliver a hearsay endorsement to Ortiz.
Maybe Manfred should be out of the commissioner’s office. Haven’t seen him do anything that is good for game.
Perhaps if the HOF offers him a place next to the revered (and retired) Bud Selig….?
Bud Selig, like his current replacement, are not worthy of any hall, except maybe The Hall of Shame.
The steroid boys will eventually get in. The HOF is nothing more than a political playground set up for money-making and media hoopla.
I guess we can throw that “cheaters never prosper” saying in the trash can, huh?
Shameful.
It’s more shameful to declare someone a cheater who is not remotely proven a cheater. You might want to get off your lousy hollow high horse.
Here is the best argument for Bonds, Clemens and for that matter Pete Rose OJ is in the Pro Football Hall of Fame and he is far worse then any of those guys.
Pete Rose accepted a lifetime ban. Get over it.
Rose “accepted it” because he didn’t have a “choice.” To this day he attempts to have MLB lift his ban. And who doesn’t think his career isn’t worthy of the HOF?
When you start with racists like Ty Cobb, Tom Yawkey and Judge Kenesaw Mountain Landis, it’s a little disingenuous to leave out the great players because “you think” they may have used PEDs or they bet on the game.
The moralist journalists who keep out the great players make a mockery of the HOF.
I agree with you, but I will say that Rose actually did bet on games
I mean at least Schilling was denied an opportunity to soil the hall.
My argument against Schilling has zero to do with politics (in fact I am a pro Trump Conservative myself). It is what I said earlier: He acted like TO and said he did not want to be elected for that reason he should have to wait a few more years.
Now that Ortiz is in, it still pangs me how easily Sosa was dismissed, the amount of proof linking him to PEDs is very similar to Ortiz’s.
So with that being said, it’s a little disappointing that Sosa didn’t garner more support. I suppose that the circumstantial evidence was so strong that any consideration of him by someone who won’t vote for known PED users was minimal.
He absolutely should be in, disgusting that he’s not. Guy carried two teams on his back to championships. One in each league. He’s a horrible guy, but there are plenty of them in there already.
Sosa is a much better guy to bring up than Bonds or Clemens, as their PED use is very well established by a mountain of evidence.
I recall seeing many arguments that Sosa was a fringe HOF guy even if PED stuff was ignored, so that seems to be how he ended up where he ended up. But I can imagine that many people would laugh at that argument!
Wasn’t so much PEDs with Sosa for me but the corked bat. Calling BS he only used it in practice and in game by accident.
As usual the old guard who refuse to share their ballots with the public hold sway over the induction outcome.
I’m a Yankee fan, and Ortiz absolutely belongs in Cooperstown. I do believe he took PEDs, as do my Red Sox fan friends, but it’s not an automatic strike against entry.
I do have an issue with voting in Ortiz and not Bonds and Clemens, but that’s a BBWAA issue.
Congrats to Big Papi.
I don’t disagree. Can’t stand Bonds or Clemens, but roids or not, they were the best of the best in their primes.
@RobM these are my thoughts exactly. Ortiz deserves this, but if you want to take a moral stance against Bonds and Clemens then you need to do the same for Ortiz. Hypocritical nonsense like this is troublesome. You can’t dismiss one report and give full credit to another. You can’t say “he cheated a little, but the other guy cheated a lot.” Bonds technically never tested positive. Ortiz officially did test positive. I know you can claim Ortiz’s test was fishy, but that’s speculation. The double standard is what I have a problem with, not Big Papi.
The key thing is, “belief” should be a basis for questions and opinions, not judgement. That seems to escape a lot of other people in the comments here.
I’d eagerly embrace good evidence of PED usage by Ortiz and adjust his legacy accordingly, but until that time he is an PED INC and should be left as such.
That’s a fair point, but I still think it’s unfair. Bonds technically never tested positive. So he’s being judged on belief as well. I mean all the signs point to steroids with Bonds. I’m not sitting here clamoring that he’s innocent. I just think it’s hypocritical. Ortiz deserved the HoF. I’m not trying to belittle his accomplishments. But the cloud of suspicion is there. Fair or unfair, both players should be judged the same way IMO.
This HOF stuff isn’t really important. A lot of people here need to fill up their lives with something more important. (PS…Mr. Bonds and Mr Clemens will be just fine without a plaque in an old building in a tourist trap in New York. ”Dey be rich allweddy.”) LOL
The Hall is important: “There is only one Hall of Fame: The baseball Hall of Fame.” ( John Havlicek NBA Hall of Famer). That is why there was a debate about Gil Hodges half a century after he died.
The HOF is a money-making operation, not unlike any retail outlet. It has no more importance (my opinion, less so) than any museum.
No excuse for this subjective decision by a body of myopic & abstract moral hypocrites….Prong Them.
So I assume you feel your OPINION has more justification than others. I wonder if you could tell us what abilities, education, and factual knowledge you have that would persuade us all to see that your OPINION is the one to adhere too.
Newspapers are going the way of radio. For that reason The Hall of Fame will have to find away to choose new voters in the future,
I will never understand why in the world the Twins ever cut Ortiz loose when they did. They were a very good team in 2002 with some depth and some prospects in the way, but it’s not like they were drowning in power hitters, and it’s certainly not as if Ortiz had a bad year. Maybe one of the strangest and worst roster decisions of modern times.
Gut feeling: MLB announced PED testing of all players for the following Spring. Ortiz showed up and failed that test even though he knew it was coming.
The Twins weren’t dumb. They knew what was about to happen. They just didn’t think he’d get away with it into his 40s.
Hypocrisy! He can’t hold Bonds, Clemens or A-Rods jock as a player! 56 War the rest 162, 139, and 117, what a joke!
Harold Baines
Harold Baines might have been the worst player I ever saw in any sport Elected to the Hall of Fame (golfer Colin Montgomerie is another bad choice ( never won a major and played on an inferior tour)).
I don’t believe anyone would want to hold A-rods jock. Don’t you are?
So we’re never going to know who was juicing, who wasn’t juicing, how much those who did juiced, what effect it had has on their performance, etc., etc. Fact based folks believe we should ignore the whole nonsense, and vote in whomever you think belongs.
You are probably right. However, where do you draw the line on “what to ignore”? What would happen if Mike Trout commits a sexual offense at age 37 after putting up obvious HOF stats? Do we ignore that? What if Bryce Harper is arrested for vehicular manslaughter at age 36 as his HOF career comes to a close? Ignore it?
I guarantee someone like Sergio Mitre or Chad Curtis if they had Hall of Fame Numbers would not get in. Do not believe me? Ask Omar Visquel
Just ask humanitarian, Nelson Cruz, he will tell you!
A deserving election.
I can also certainly understand why many baseball fans are also annoyed, either by Ortiz’s election and/or the non election of someone like Bonds.
Regardless what you think of today vote, MLB’s HOF is still the most revered in all of sports. No one cares when some player in the NFL or NBA makes their Halls. Fans still care passionately about Cooperstown.
What a joke.
“After a bit of a downturn between 2008-09, Ortiz somewhat surprisingly returned to his middle-of-the-order form as he neared his mid-30s.”… Surprising, yes indeed.
Shocking!
He also managed to lead the league in slugging at age 40. Not even Barry Bonds did that.
I can’t possibly imagine how.
I gave up being too concerned one way or the other about who gets into the Hall years ago, probably around the time Jack Morris got in. There’s just no way to do this and make everyone, or even close to everyone, happy. Unless the Hall creates its own policy on PED user eligibility, which it won’t. Frankly the voters are in an unenviable position, as they all have to decide for themselves what their parameters for inclusion are. I can’t honestly blame any voter who doesn’t make their ballot public; look at all of the uproar already tonight.
It’s a joke that Schilling is not in the Hall of Fame, because of the Hall of Fame character clause when guys with like Kenesaw Mountain Landis, Tom Yawkey, and Ty Cobb are in the Hall of Fame.
Don’t forget Cap Anson, biggest racist in MLB history and outwardly.
Bud Selig and Bowie Kuhn bad choices as well. Cobb was actually not racist. He ( like Lou Gehrig) talked about integrating the game long before it actually happened.
Now that’s what I call the good ole boys club!
I wonder if the dirt comes out about him now. There have been a lot of unsavory characters in his life. The Boston media has alluded to it, but it’s never been exposed.
You know nothing about Boston media if you think there’s blood in the water and they would only “allude” to it, There are lots of unsavoury characters in all the Dominicans lives., it’s the only way they could get here.
Big Papi deservedly heading to Cooperstown – another Red Sox in HOF (literally the only good thing about the entire state of #NewYork)
Put Manny in the HOF too since he also failed a PED test.
I’d be mad about this if the baseball hall of fame wasn’t already the biggest joke in sports
Flashback 20 years ago……David Ortiz…..age 27, 58 career HR’s, just recently DFA by the Minnesota Twins.
Now flash to 2016. Ortiz is 40 years old and just hit .315, .401 OBP, 1.021 OPS, 38 HR’s, 127 RBI’s….
Are y’all actually serious telling me he didn’t do roids?
Most people think he did. He evaded a positive test in the era where they tested and punished for years. That’s the work around for the writers who voted for him.
Greatest post season player in my lifetime.
Reggie Jackson says hello
I can understand a Yankees fan saying Jackson but there is a playoff highlight reel that got posted to Youtube that is insane.
I would say Reggie’s 3 HRs on 3 pitches off 3 different pitchers is awesome but it doesn’t top Ortiz 2004 ALCS.
Reggie Jackson, Madison Bumgarner (and MadBum is not even a Hall of Famer), and Mariano Rivera.
David Ortiz PED defense, “My name got leaked because there were so many Yankees on the list”
David Ortiz 55.3 career WAR MVP awards 0
Barry Bonds 162.7 (tied 1st all time) MVP 7!
Roger Clemens 139.2 Cy Youngs 7! MVP 1
Mark McGwire 62.2 MVP 0
Sammy Sosa 58.6 MVP 1
Ortiz won 3 World Series and won how many playoff MVPs again?
You keep your pretty season stats. Champs don’t worry about chumps.
They don’t count Manny and him were juicing! You can;t have it both ways!
Crazy. As a sox fan it’s pretty obvious Ortiz was a roider. No reason Bonds and Clemens aren’t in it either. Even ARod deserves to be in at some point. These are some of the greatest players in the sports history. The hall is a joke without them. It’s a disservice to have Ortiz and not Bonds and Clemens
Thank you sir. I don’t even fault the players for taking them. If I were in their shoes I would have done the same thing.
1.) Millions of dollars were at stake for the players who were after a contract. People do a lot worse for money than inject themselves with a PED
2.) Selig did nothing to crack down. He actually indirectly encouraged it.
3.) being the majority of players were juicing you had to juice just to keep up with the crowd. Look at cycling, you literally stood no chance to compete unless you doped so if you had any ideas about competing you know what you had to do
Again I’m not mad at Ortiz for juicing. He belongs in the HOF. If everyone else in the sport weren’t juicing maybe he would have hit his stride at a younger age but who knows. That’s why you put EVERYONE in the HOF who has the resume to back it up.
Big Papi found a way to mask his steroid use. The change in his numbers are historically ridiculous.
Check out the chart in this article (ignore the author’s ranting):
barstoolsports.com/blog/643284/thank-god-david-ort…
Just sitting back watching Bonds highlights….
This doesn’t sound like a rumor
Weep. Congrats Papi
Also….put Edgar Martinez in the mother effin HOF this second
@LebronHatesAsians
Edgar Martinez IS in the HOF.
Baseball writers have now opened the floodgates. If Ortiz is in, you might as well let two or three much better players in as well in Bonds, Clemens, and A-Rod. Say what you will, but Ortiz doesn’t hold a candle to any of these three.
Fred McGriff needs to be a HOFer. It’s insane that he’s not. Hopefully it doesn’t take another 15 years like it took Ron Santo and Lee Smith
McGriff is deserving. Smith absolutely not. Worst MLB Hall of Famers I saw. 1; Harold Baines. 2:,Trevor Hoffman. 3: Smith. Hoffman was a compiler who sucked in big games.
McGriff has the same problem as guys like Dwight Evans. He was just good every year. He also just missed 500 HRs by 7 but there are those voters that will use that.
Cheater in HOF but Schilling not.
Ok
I wonder if he’ll go in wearing a Mariners Jersey?
“ NEW YORK — At a news conference at Yankee Stadium this afternoon, David Ortiz stated definitively that he never used steroids or bought them, but acknowledged that he was “careless” when he was “buying supplements and vitamins over the counter,” and that he may be guilty of taking supplements that he didn’t know contained banned substances.”
So basically same as Bonds. Such a scam. Ortiz is a third of the player Bonds was.
Ortiz is also 3x the Champion Bonds is
David Ortiz Report Card. his 5-tool MLB Player grades.
Hit for Power A (excellent)
Hit for Average B (good)
Run C- (below average)
Field D (poor)
Throw C (average)
Composite GPA 2.35. Hall of Fame, First ballot
bbwa are total hypocrites.
The East German judge gives the BBWAA a perfect 10 for the mental gymnastics needed to put Ortiz in the HOF, while leaving Bonds out. I’d call them hypocrites but I would hate to insult hypocrites that way.
What a joke, he is as big a juicer as any of the others.
*Congrats to the guy who failed more PED tests than Bonds and Clemens.
For everyone saying Ortiz didn’t fail a test, is proof he didn’t take Roids. Is laughable at best. How many tests has Nelson Cruiz failed? How many did Alex Rodriguez fail? Oh wait they didn’t. It’s all about, hey this guy was nice to me, so I’ll over look what anyone else can see. Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with Ortiz getting elected in. But stop acting like and pretending he didn’t use.
Arod did fail a test though
I don’t recall he did. He was busted through evidence as far as I remember…like Clemens and Bonds were.
We got it. You hate blacks and are trying to mask it.
Now that Ortiz is in the Hall, Clemens, Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, Sosa, Palmeiro, McGwire, and Manny should be in. Heck, ignore Keith Hernandez’s demons during his playing days now, and put the most successful defensive 1B in MLB history in too to join his former teammate Ozzie Smith.
And just for the sake of credibility, can we put some guys that deserve to be there that have been overshadowed by the roiders…like Jeff Kent, Fred McGriff, and Omar Vizquel.
Unfortunately Omar has bigger problems than being overshadowed by roiders.
I will say i believe both McGriff and Kent should be in. The Crime Dog was a steady offensive force before the PED’s boom and Kent was one of the best offensive 2B ever and definitely the best during most of his playing days
theweek.com/articles/645685/fraudulent-myth-big-pa…
For the first 8 years of his career, Dwight Evans had an OPS of .784, OPS+ of 112. For the next ten years, he had an OPS of .882, OPS+ of 137 and he lead the entire league in total bases over that period. Maybe he took steroids?
For the first 6 years of his career, Carl Yastrzemski had an OPS of .831, OPS+ of 125. For the next 4 years, he had an OPS of .969, OPS+ of 169. Maybe he took steroids?
Tony Armas came to the Red Sox and lead the league in home runs.
Jason Bay came to the Red Sox and had career highs in HR and RBI.
Nick Esasky came to the Red Sox and had career highs in HR and RBI.
Dick Stuart came to the Red Sox and had career highs in HR and lead the league in RBI.
Ken Harrelson came to the Red Sox and had career highs in HR and lead the league in RBI.
Carney Lansford came the Red Sox and won a batting title.
Bill Mueller came to the Red Sox and won a batting title.
Tell me, did these guys all take steroids? Huh?
Bite me.
You were okay until you mentioned Carney Lansford…ahem…part of the Bash Brothers team.
I hope you’re not seriously trying to pretend that David Ortiz didn’t fail a test. If so, I have some beachfront property I’d like to sell you that is located 500 miles east of the U.S. east coast. You can’t miss the beach there.
Lansford’s time in Boston was long before the “Bash Brothers” was a thing.
Listen. Papi was on a “list” that no one EVER published. So it’s heresay. I am not pretending that he is innocent. But the data suggests that MANY hitters have succeeded into their careers in Red Sox uniforms throughout the past 60 years without any sort of “assistance”. So Papi succeeding without drugs is certainly possible and if you don’t think so, you’re naive.
Again, I am not pretending he is innocent. And I already own enough properties, you don’t need to sell me any more.
All this talk about steroids in MLB…who did, who didn’t. Why are we not talking about how MLB turned a blind eye to PED use when it was obvious during the Bonds, McGwire, Sosa run? MLB celebrated-and condoned-the HRs because it was putting fannies in the seats-bottom line. (No pun intended) We all knew that they were doing it, but we rooted them on anyway. I did, too. We cheered them on but when it came time for an accounting, everyone ran like cockroaches in the light. Nobody wanted to admit to anything.
To further that, there are 3 players in the Hall of Fame who admitted to using PEDs: Mike Piazza, Pudge Rodriguez and Jeff Bagwell. And let’s not forget that back in the 70’s and early 80’s teams would put out a bowl of ‘greenies’ (amphetamines) for players to take before each game!
Congrats Mr. Ortiz, welcome to the Hall of Good, you steroid using…
Wasn’t Ortiz on the Mitchell Report?
No he was not. 57 players were mentioned in the Mitchell Report. David Ortiz was not one of them.
Why are people saying he took steroids
See below
Facts surrounding the David Ortiz ‘Positive’ Drug Tests:
1) Back in 2003, players were asked to take a voluntary, anonymous drug test to see if more than 5% of players tested positive. If the number exceeded 5%, MLB would institute drug testing along with penalties for those who failed future tests.
2) David Ortiz was very outspoken about steroid use in baseball. He wanted anyone caught using steroids to be banned from
baseball for one full season. He stated this back in 2003.
3) 104 people tested positive for banned substances during this voluntary test. David Ortiz was one of them as was Samy Sosa and many others. David Ortiz first learned he tested positive in 2009 (after the Senate hearings). When he asked for details on what he tested positive for, he was told all of the samples were destroyed and there was no information on what type of drug each person tested positive for. There we no records available to research, no named substances people tested positive for, etc. Everything had been destroyed.
4) Out of the 104 positive tests, over 10 of those were proven to be false positives, but the league did not retest because even after excluding them, the results would have been over the 5% threshold to institute mandatory league wide testing so they didn’t bother to revise the records or retest (or exclude) the false positives.
5) Directly from the commissioner: “Back then, it was hard to distinguish between certain substances that were legal, available over the counter, and not banned under our program, and certain banned substances.”
“We were not certain it was a banned substance as opposed to something that was available over the counter and legal.” So even the positive results had serious questions as to whether or not they were actually legal substances.
6) Once drug testing was officially instituted in MLB, David Ortiz never tested positive despite being tested 4-5 times per season at random times and places.
There is more than enough evidence in the factual statements above that the results of this voluntary test are sketchy at best. Ortiz easily could have been one of the false positives or could have tested positive for an over the counter, legal substance. Anyone on this list (including Sosa) should not be classified as a steroid user or having a failed drug test. If Ortiz was knowingly taking steroids, he wouldn’t have volunteered to take this test, period.
Lastly, there is the eye test. Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Bagwell (admitted user), etc..all completely changed their body chemistry after talking PEDs. They had muscles on top of their muscles. Clemens’ quads almost tore open his pants at times. Big Papi on the other hand looked like the Domincan Santa Claus. He always kept his belly and never had bulging muscles popping out of his uniform like the known offenders. Plus Papi had lingering injuries that hampered him across multiple seasons. One of the biggest benefits of PEDs is to recuperate from injuries faster. Papi never saw such benefits. In fact he retired because he could barely walk anymore due to heel and foot pain.
At the end of the day, only David Ortiz knows for sure if he was taking any PEDs prior to the 2003 season; no one else knows anything more than this. We do know he never failed any mandatory league drug tests and we know he was tested well over 50 times during his career. Couple that with no known ties to HGH dealers, BALCO, etc. and I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. In case anyone thinks I made any of this up, here is the link to the article:
amp.usatoday.com/amp/91442256
Congratulations Big Papi on your election to the Hall of Fame. You were truly one of a kind; your stats were only outdone by your larger than life personality. The Hall of Fame was made for players like you!
“Use the Eye Test” – This is such dangerous thinking. By the eye test Ortiz would definitely be considered a steroid case. His performance jumped astronomically. It would be unfair to assume he cheated based on an eye test, but combine that with the positive test in 2003 and there’s a seed of suspicion. Bonds never failed any test. In my eyes, he definitely did steroids. But you can’t choose one over the other. I don’t care how you spin it. It’s pure hypocrisy by the writers.
You’re confusing the eye test with the paper test. The eye test is looking at the person. The paper test is looking at the stats, i.e., on paper.
Biggest fraud of all. Career long user of HGH. Seen throwing up gang signs with hands after games for years.
So, is the explanation here that we shouldn’t trust the reports of his positive test….OR….”yeah, sure that happened, but…”?
Keep in mind the results of this voluntary were never supposed to be released. The Senate subpoenaed them and someone leaked them to the press. Also, these were not official, league tests so second samples weren’t taken, there were no appeals available and what they tested positive for was never documented. So when it comes to this one voluntary test, we should absolutely exclude the results.
Also, read this SI article from 2009:
si.com/.amp/mlb/2009/07/30/ortiz-steroids
Nomar is on recording saying this about the test results: Nomar also claimed that some players were so in favor of a comprehensive testing program that they allowed their names to be counted as positive tests during the 2003 survey testing in order to raise the number of positive results, thus triggering a full testing program.
Isn’t a DH just half a baseball player?
Echo what others have said, love Papi but there’s no way he should be elected over vastly superiors players like a Manny Ramirez, Bonds, Arod and Clemens when he was flagged for PEDs as well. Schilling is even worse since it’s personal. The Hall needs to remove the writers from electing. They too often use the vote for personal grievances.
You must have missed his post season exploits as well. If you are upset about the others I get it but Ortiz was an OBVIOUS HOFer.
Sky14 – Your looking at it backwards. The other guys should have long been in the HOF and Papi should have followed behind them because steroids did not impact HRs the juice in the baseball did. The 1994 the strike year launched the Juiced Ball Era in 1995. Steroids started in the 70s. Only after the ball got juiced did anyone link the HRs to steroids. The whole steroids thing is a sham. Yeah guys got bigger faster etc but the numbers don’t support the belief they impacted HRs.
It’s all about the new ball used in 1995 after the strike season. Chicks did the long ball and Selig did too. The HRs were 25% higher after the new baseball than before it in 1990 to 1994. That shoots the heck out of the steroid theory because steroids had been used long before the ball change with no perceptible impact on HRs..
FYI the same thing happened after 2014. 2001 saw a peak juice factor of 1.17 six years after the ball started changing in 1995 and 2019 saw a new peak of 1.39 just five years after the 2015 jump of 17% from 2014.
The HOF has it’s head on wrong about steroids. The name performance enhancing drugs is a misnomer when it comes to baseball. It’s a body enhancing drug that doesn’t translate to baseball statistical gains. The juice in the baseball accounts for the growth in statistics. It still does today as the current peak is 18.8% higher than the one in the Juiced Ball Era.. The future of hitters is bright if the commissioner continues to allow the juice to keep growing.
As the juice in the ball becomes a more acceptable and believed topic related to recent home run surges somebody will invest the time in retro reviewing the 1990s and see the 1994 changed completed turned baseball history on it’s head. Players got blamed for attempted cheating and banned from the HOF while others who probably also attempted cheating but didn’t get caught were not banned and the whole time the change in the source of the baseball accounted for the real jump in stats.
I hope someday it comes out in the press that the new juiced baseball in 1995 created a fictitious and erroneously named era in baseball.
I like big puppy,
But you have to be nuts to think he didn’t do steroids
Congrats Papi!
The Hall of Fame will never be more than a joke until electors vote on each player yes or no.
They set up the original system so beat writers could blow off players by saying “just too many guys to vote for this year.” Then you have all the mediocre players Bill James exposed because they were drinking buddies with the writers. Derek Jeter, one of the worst fielding shortstop of all time, gets in.
Pullezze! Who takes this clown car seriously!!??
Congrats to Ortiz! He deserved it.
Congratulations to the HOF voters on proving once again that the voting system needs to be completely overhauled. They are a pathetic joke.
Seems to me the writers vote based upon who gave them interviews and who they liked. You can’t say that Ortiz was clean and use that the keep Bonds, McGwire and Clemens out. The difference was the writers liked Ortiz. How many hall of famers are DFA’d and suddenly have a HOF career. Come on, his stats his last year were silly for his age. Apparently Father Time was better to Ortiz than anyone else is history.
Luis Tiant was DFA’d TWICE.
These comments are glorious. Cheaters cheated and we have some proof, but my guy didn’t ever cheat and I have some proof, and all our proof is the same (Google), because we’re all just homers who like our guy, and if you don’t like my guy, then just never watch baseball again, like I totally would have done If my steroid guy didn’t get in.
Did I leave anything out?
Someone needs to do a serious research project regarding BBWAA moralizing throughout the generations. This feels like a really stupid chapter in that book.
All this hate and all of it wrong. Factually incorrect.
Geez, Only a RedSox player could attract this much hatred on a day He gets elected to the HOF. Don’t you agree?
No it’s because it’s a Red Sox player who used steroids, bet on his own games and was involved in a Dominican money laundering ring that resulted in his attempted assassination.
2001more: Any proof of any of this? You forgot, Ortiz was the mastermind behind 9/11.
Read Baseball Cop and use Google about the time he was almost murdered. Not exactly going out on a limb saying any of those things. You don’t think it’s weird that an ex detective working security for the Red Sox wrote a book about Ortiz and Monga betting on games and he never got sued for defamation?
@Randy I don’t think anyone hates Ortiz. I think people are more annoyed at the HoF voting process.
With Ortiz being inducted ahead of other players that are being held out, the Hall of Fame officially has no integrity.
THANK YOU !!!
I’m sure Ortiz put up MVP type numbers at age 41 while in horrible pain (his words) to boot, completely free of PED’s. /s
Wait he had to be completely free of PEDs otherwise why did Selig get into the HOF for removing PEDs from baseball?
Were you aware the juice factor in the baseball had climbed to 1.16 by 2016 making it comparable to the era when Bonds, McGwire and Sosa hit all their home runs.
Blame the baseball if you don’t like the big numbers. The steroids had nothing to do with it. Ask Selig! He’s the self proclaimed savior!
I find it comical how many Yankees fans are on here chirping when EVERYONE knows Jeter was taking EVERYTHING under the sun but no one said boo. Jeter WAS on the Mitchell report so maybe you shouldn’t be chirping.
Weird thing to say for a guy cheering for a drug lord who took the juice and bet on his own games
Some people see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe.
Bonds, Clemens, et al., individually, didn’t have a PED problem; MLB created a PED problem when it allowed, condoned, and sanctioned the use of PEDs to bring fans back after the 1994 lockout. “Chics dig the long ball.” If there was a problem, it was of the collective. There are reports that the use of PEDs was well known by MLB. In fact, teams had Dr’s visit clubhouses and talked to players about steroids, and MLB didn’t do anything about it. Yet, Selig who ruled during the era is in.
The biggest hypocrisy here though, and no one ever mentions it, is that of the journalists who made a reputation and a handome living covering known juicers, only to get all indignant when someone blew the whistle. It is a fact that there are juicers in the HOF, Bonds and Clemens should be in.
Bugg Selig was an absolute tool, a creep.
The HOF is nothing more than Hollywood Walk of Fame where almost anyone can get a star if they are popular.
Not banning against him, but to hear that writers were receiving a lot of pressure to vote him in, because of his popularity… Anyways, he put the numbers, no matter what. I went to Dominican Republic once, not so many years ago, and that guy is an idol there, more than any player from there. Lot of young guys tried to look as him with same haircut, bear, etc. They love him to death. As contrary when a puertorrican is elected, most dominicans bash against us, and write some hateful comments everywhere, we in P.R. congratulate the guy and his country for this election. There has to be dancing in the streets in Dominican Republic.
They love him so much they shot the guy…wonder if they ever solved that case of “mistaken identity”?
His drug lord business partner and his assassination team don’t seem to like him. Maybe we can ask Luis Castillo and Octavio Dotel how it is to be a famous MLB star laundering money and selling drugs in the DR?
Biggest fraud of all. Career long user of HGH. Seen throwing up gang signs with hands after games for years.
I just realized the Hall of Fame is soo 2022. Ortiz is a HOF on his hitting alone. The DH first ballet talk is for the guys who played the game to decide. Pretty sure there are guys that used once we don’t know about. Maybe his team was paid well to stay ahead of testing after the failed survey. Someone commented Mitchell was affiliated to the red Sox sonehow?
“Hey guys Davids at the door, let him in! That silk shirt and smile right?!”
“OH $#!t Curt is at the door. Dude I don’t want to hear flat earth talk or listen to him make jokes about David’s shirt. Turn off the lights!”
Just to be clear, supporting Ortiz’ induction while opposing Bonds is NOT hypocrisy! We don’t know that Ortiz consistently cheated the way Bonds did. Folks around here can pretend all they want but we have knowledge against Bonds that we don’t have against Ortiz. We have assumptions, accusations that border upon slander, but we don’t know.
Whether you cheated several times or just once is the same IMO. You’re a cheat and a mark on the integrity of the game. Guys that hid behind the “I just did it once to rehab an injury” are FOS and are not only cheaters but cowards. Own up to it and be truthful, people would respect you more.
There’s no proof he cheated once. So you saying ‘suspicion of cheating once’ ?
Just because they agreed to keep the results hidden doesn’t mean there wasn’t proof he cheated. He did!
So now even if evidence isn’t there, he’s still guilty cuz the evidence must be hidden which proves his guilt? Something like that? This is pretty ridiculous.
The results of the test were supposed to remain quiet due to their agreement at the time. However, Big Sloppi and others on the list were outed. If you are that naive or too much of a super fan to believe he did not use PEDs in his career that’s your choice.
Just because the results of the test were not supposed to be disclosed to the public does not mean he did not cheat. Cheat once, cheat twice, cheat every day for years, once the integrity is compromised it doesn’t matter how much or how often, you are a cheat. And if Bonds didn’t show us anything else, he proved that if you have the money you can buy the guy that can get you around the tests. If you don’t want to believe Big Sloppi cheated you’re going to be heartbroken when you find out Santa Claus isn’t real.
Cheater cheater steroid eater
@Cosmo, as I stated yesterday, I support Ortiz’s election, but your argument against Bonds is a form of moral gerrymandering. To be clear, all reasonable fans can have a high confidence level that both used steroids. We also know with a high confidence level when Bonds started using and why. He already had an argument as one of the greatest players ever. It’s entirely possible Ortiz’s entire career is a mirage. We don’t know. The argument he was clean is he might fall into a 10% bucket of questionable tests in 2003. That also means there’s a 90% probability he was guilty. There is significant circumstantial evidence he continued to use, including his age-40 season being perhaps the best of his great career. Throughout the game’s history, there have been productive hitters late into their 30s, even 40, but productive is different than hitting your best at 40. That is a class reserved for the steroid players.
I’m not arguing against Ortiz. I’m arguing against his inclusion and Bonds’ exclusion. It’s not rational. We know Bonds was one of the greatest players ever without PEDs. We don’t know for sure what Ortiz is clean.
Put them both in.
We don’t know that Ortiz did steroids at all
Ha ha ha HAHAHA ! Yeah, Right!!!
That’s why I refer to it as moral gerrymandering. People are drawing lines to fit their wishes. There’s no consistency.
Do you believe he used PEDs?
I understand the difference between Ortiz and Bonds, and while Bonds never tested positive there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence against him. Ortiz tested positive in 2003. You can point to his career and look at a significant change in his performance. So the cloud of suspicion is fair, but to Ortiz’s credit he never tested positive again and had solid numbers even in the last year of his career.
So yes. There’s a clear difference, but I’m sorry it’s still hypocrisy. If baseball is taking a hard stance against PEDs, the sole member voted into the HoF class by the writers cannot be someone who has some reasonable suspicion around them. It’s a confusing message. It’s simply saying not all cheaters are alike. Bonds cheated more so he’s no good. Ortiz may have only cheated a little bit.
Why does a hardline have to include punishing someone over mere suspicion? It doesn’t.
Cosmo2 It’s more than mere suspicion. It was a positive test. People debate the merit of that test and that works in Ortiz’s favor.
There are so many unknowns with Bonds too. When did he start doing steroids and for how long? Since he never tested positive a lot of it his just assumed.
It’s unfair to completely ignore Ortiz’s positive test and completely accept all of Bonds’ career as tainted.
The Hall of Fame needs to change. Perhaps there are levels of merit, but Bonds and Clemens belong there, even with an asterisk. Fair or unfair I have the same level of doubt with Ortiz that I do with others accused of using PEDs. Ortiz’s career path fits those of PEDs users. Bonds there’s no doubt. He definitely cheated, but I think it’s too difficult for baseball to pick and choose from that era when there are so many tainted players already in. I think Bonds and Clemens should be in with asterisks, but not allowed to give a speech.
@Von, yes, we agree. Now, we do know with certainty that Bonds took PEDs, and we do know with fairly high certainty that Ortiz took PEDs. We also know that Bonds was one of the greatest players ever prior to PEDs. We can’t give Ortiz that same benefit of the doubt.
It’s the hypocrisy and convenient line drawing that annoys many fans, myself included. Tom Verducci, who I generally think is an excellent reporter, did undermine everything he’s said since about 2007 when he started his verbal and written crusade against any player vaguely associated with PEDs. McGwire became the first player in MLB history to fail the morality clause, and Verducci more than anyone promoted that. He tossed it all out with his Ortiz vote. I am glad Ortiz was on the same ballot as Bonds so historically people can look back and see who decided Ortiz was fine and Bonds wasn’t.
Once again, to be clear, I believe Ortiz should have been elected.
@LordD99 I’m with you completely. I think a lot of people are seeing complaints as bashing Ortiz or trying to equate Bond’s cheating to Ortiz’s maybe cheating. That’s not what we’re doing. It’s the hypocrisy of the voting process that’s troubling; the lack of hard and fast rules are ruining the reputation of the Hall. Guys like Verducci are saying these cheaters should absolutely not be in (which is fine), but then they go ahead and give their vote to a guy who is maybe a cheater and who has tested positive. While suspicion should never be the same thing as guilt, it’s important to remember that Bonds has mostly been judged by people opinion as well. It’s hard not to see this as hypocrisy.
Biggest fraud of all. Career long user of HGH. Seen throwing up gang signs with hands after games for years.
Just to be clear Bonds was a good player before steroid use, Ortiz wasn’t. Amazing his numbers went up after failed test. You don’t have to be too smart to figure out this mystery, but they will still be a lot of people that can’t figure it out.
Just to be clear, neither Bonds, nor Ortiz belong in the HoF even if Bond is a far superior player.
Look Papi is a HOF, no argument with me. But so is Bonds and Clemens. BTW, let me know what were the “Beetamins that caused Papi to test positive.”
I remember when the HOF meant something but now it literally means nothing. They let anyone in. I’m not saying Ortiz doesn’t belong because he’s had way too many clutch hits and great moments to not be in but if you’re telling me that he should be in before the likes of Bonds, Clemens, and Pete Rose then that’s where you lose me. The HOF holds zero weight in my eyes in fact when they elected guys like Baines, Trammell, and Edgar Martinez I realized the hall was done being something special.
So this clears the path for Jose Bautista, and Nelson Cruz for HOF induction.
And Jose Palmero, ARod, Bonds, Clemens and so on………
No way on Jose. If Cruz was up hitting bombs 5 years earlier at 23 we might be talkin differently. Hitting 500+ MLB hrs should be in Hof talk.
Jose Palmero? I went to high school with that guy!
They get a threefer in electing Monga Ortiz. A steroid user, guy who bet on his own games and of course was the victim of an assassination attempt from his drug lord money laundering business partner. Excellent work Manfred. You got your guy. MLB is a punchline.
Congrats to Big Papi!
Career long user of HGH. Biggest fraud of all. Seen throwing up gang signs with hands after games for many years.
When Clemens left Boston in ’96 he was not a Hall of Famer. So he starts juicing in Toronto and puts up the numbers in his post age 34 seasons that make him a Hall of Famer. Steroids helped keep him a power pitcher and away from from the DL. He’s arguably not a HOF without his steroid years.
As for Bonds? He was on his way before he started juicing.
Either way the HOF is a mess. Always has been and always will be. IMHO Ortiz is not a first ballot HOF.
I disagree. He could have retired after his last year in Boston and he would have comfortably made the HOF. Three Cy Young’s (should have been at least 4), an MVP, four ERA titles, including three straight seasons, six times FIP, seven times leading in ERA+, etc. His last season in Boston he had a 139 ERA+ and included his second career 20K game. Look at the black ink during his Boston years. First ballot.
Clemens was well on his way to the HoF just with his Boston numbers alone. You can debate he needed some more longevity, but the stats were solid.
Career long user of HGH. Biggest fraud of all. Seen throwing up gang signs with hands after games for years.
I think what some people don’t understand is that there is a huge difference on the use of anabolic steroids use and for example cortisone. It was apparent for many players Bonds, Sosa and McGuire’s of the world were on anabolic steroids which increase muscle performance etc. other steroids like cortisone fight inflammation allowing players to perform better or recover faster. My feeling is those that obviously took HGH should be banned.
@msqboxer This is a valid point, but if this is the case it should be included within the rules for voters. There’s too much ambiguity. If there’s some kind of hard logic rule why Ortiz can get in and Bonds cannot, I’d be all for it.
Put a needle on his plaque.
Forgetting about the obvious PED hypicrosy for a moment..
Still, give me Will Clark or Fred McGriff over this clown Ortiz any day of the week
Im amazed how many people are emotionally invested in the hall of fame. They need to just stop calling it the hall of fame and make it 100% a museum.
All the hate out there would expect nothing less when you open up a forum. I’ll give my 2 cents. All players do something. They work out more now and there are things that work to help. Great players are great players. Some just go to far. Ortiz is deserving.
Wow this is a joke! No Bonds, No Clemens, No Maguire, No Sosa but Papi is ok because the media liked him and he was loved in Boston….. listen this guy had two careers, the one before Boston wasn’t very good and the Papi in Boston when he met Manny who was potentially he biggest steroid culprit of the era. Bonds was an all star prior to his use but he’s not in? The thing about Papi that bothered me is as soon as the report came out he tried to do everything to get his name removed and pointed fingers at everyone else even though he failed a test. The Mitchell report (biggest fraudulent report) didn’t have one Red Sock in it because of Mitchell who was a Red Sock homer. Not a good look here for baseball.
I’m going to bypass Ortiz, Clemens, Bonds, A=Rod, Schilling, and all those guys and go to this: its so cool to see Kaat and Oliva (two 83 year olds who played together) get the call to the Hall at the same time. That 1965 team came so close to winning it all.. And they just could not compete with the Orioles in 69 or 70, Baltimore was just to damn good. But that Twins era was so good, and I’m glad more members of those teams are finding their place in Cooperstown.
The Hall of Fame has so many cheaters, bad characters and undeserving, that this idea that it is some sanctimonious place is just false. If the goal is to make it more sanctimonious, then remove most of the inductees. There are even guys in there because Frankie Frisch helped get them in through the Veteran’s Committee..
Big Papi, big user. I remember a few enhanced dingers he had against Detroit. Guess he’ll have company in the hall with Pudge. Users but likable users.
Biggest fraud of all. Career long user of HGH. Seen throwing up gang signs with his hands after games for many years.
“Despite posting a solid .272/.339/.500 line with 20 home runs, he was cut loose after the season. Signed by the Red Sox that offseason, he almost immediately emerged as one of the game’s most feared sluggers.”
Anyone recall the explanation?
He was arb elig and the Twins were cheap. Just like Renfroe and Tampa.
David Ortiz actually hit very well in the Minors you could see that the guy could hit even back in Minnesota. The problem for Ortiz was that Tom Kelly was his manager and he flat out didn’t like him as a player. Ortiz has never been good defensively and had a propensity to strike out which are both things that Kelly hated. He just didn’t fit in Kelly’s system. He never sucked in Minnesota and everyone could see the guy could hit hell he hit 20 homers and slugged to an 120 ops plus in 466 plate appearances hardly a guy you would dfa. It seems that Kelly just didn’t like the guy and didn’t fit the managers team so they let a guy that hit to a 120 ops plus walk.
The Red Sox picked him up he supported by a new manager and he blossomed. The guy raked in the minors seemed to be in a bad situation with his manager not liking him as a player and after watching Ortiz for years with Boston that must of been very tough for him. The argument can be made that Ortiz used steroids and that is why he improved greatly upon going to Boston but it’s also just as likely that he got into a situation where he was much more comfortable and allowed him to reach his massive hitting potential that was always there.
Biggest fraud of all. Career long user of HGH. Seen throwing up gang signs with his hands after games for many years.
Yup him pointing to the sky after hitting home runs was a gang sign or was it him paying homage to his mom who passed away you clown.
I would also make the argument that the reason for the huge jump in home runs was not steroids but was actually the baseball.
The huge jump in home runs was right after the strike was over. I remember a good friend of mine who went to a game in the old Kingdome and in 1997 little Joey Cora hit a one handed oppo homer that convinced him and me that the ball was wound tighter then a Titleist. The game was hurting after the strike and baseball needed a way to get fans back so they juiced the baseball. That is the real reason for the spike in home runs and not steroids.
I do believe that steroids were rampant and that what it did do was allow people to heal faster and it increased the aging curve so older sluggers could stick around longer and more effectively that’s what I noticed about steroids. Steroids were surely in the game before the massive spike in home runs yet that massive spike didn’t happen until after the strike when the ball was the big culprit.
While I don’t think that the opinions of a bunch of sanctimonious writers whose feelings are easily hurt determine the legacy of success of one’s career, this is the most interesting passage:
“After a bit of a downturn between 2008-09, Ortiz somewhat surprisingly returned to his middle-of-the-order form as he neared his mid-30s. Between 2010 and 2016, the left-handed hitter never had a season with a wRC+ below 134.”
I find that very eyebrow-raising, because as most players near their mid 30s decline, the ones that don’t have been linked to PEDs: Bonds, Palmeiro, A-Rod. While Frank Robinson and Hank Aaron kept high performance late into their 30s, this was well before steroids and we’re talking about some of the all-time greats. Others who were clean had the decline, including but not limited to…
1. Griffey – had one full season above career average after age 30, had injury problems, power declined. Last 40 HR season was age 30.
2. Murray – only his age 34 season (possibly his best) was above his career average, age 39 right at average. Never hit 30+ HR after age 31 despite baseball moving into the meat of the steroids era
3. Mays – last transcendent season was age 34, was merely great after that for a few more years
4. McGriff – best years were in TOR and SDP, prior to age 30.
5. Andruw Jones – fell off a cliff at age 31
Look at Pujols and Cabrera as they hit late 30s too, versus Ortiz and Bonds.
Besides that question, you always have to take another look at home/away splits for players who had their stats juiced by many years at Fenway Park.
Ortiz had more HR on the road (300 vs 241) but more doubles at home of course (328 vs 250) but was clearly a better player at home. On the road BA and OBP were 40 points lower. My go-to example here is always Jim Rice, who would not be a HOF on his road stats of .277/.330/.459 – comparative OPS of 85 versus the 115 at home where he was .320/.374/.546 with 20% more HR. Yaz is similarly unbalanced home and away, and he had more HR at home. (Ted Williams was only marginally better at home in comparison, but Williams is a transcendent player.)
I’m not saying Ortiz wasn’t very good to great, but I don’t rate him as highly, and certainly at least the specter of steroids and Fenway splits contributed positively to his career.
Career long HGH user. Compete fraud. Gang signs thrown up with his hands after games.
Give proof anybody can say anything but just because you say it doesn’t mean it’s true. If you are accusing someone of using HGH and a gangster prove it or you have zero credibility.
human growth hormone used his whole career.
human growth hormone user and gangster
arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/03/former-mlb-pit…
Doxxing people while railing on cancel culture? Again, just an amazing piece of garbage.
The Hall of Shame lacks any degree of credibility until they revamp their voting pool and modernize their criteria for eligibility to cast a vote. How can you keep out the greatest power hitter in the history of baseball and one of the greatest pitchers in the modern era. Their alleged use of performance substances is not a valid argument to deny their entrance.
I think the writers have officially lost their right to being the only people who can vote. It’s too much of a popularity contest and not enough about the player’s achievements. I’m not saying that it should be completely up to fans, or completely up to the MLB staff, or the MLBPA, but it can’t be solely one group. I think it should be up to multiple groups, and I think the players in the MLB should have a say. Whatever the change is, it needs to be made, but not so that it’s solely up to the writers and Manfred’s crew. Not sure if even Manfred’s crew should have the right
Sorry to say Baseball HOF is no better than Rock and Roll HOF. These boats can never be righted now. They are just museums.
If your comment contains a line-break, it’s too long sweetie.
CHEATER
I love Tony Reali’s points are SPOT on:
I walk into the HOF and want to see who had the most hits in MLB history: Well he’s not in the HOF.
I want to see who had the most HRs in MLB history: Well he’s not in the HOF.
That loser Plaschke had no response to Hank Aaron admitting he used amphetamines.
This is the only criteria the HOF should be based on: When he played was he one of the best players in his era and/or does he have the stats to support being in the hall of fame?
On a similar note, if you’re the best of the best you should get in. Steroids, no steroids, doesn’t matter. Guys like Bonds and Clemens, as loathsome as they are, were so much better than the rest that not taking steroids would still have them HOF worthy.
The only guys who should be excluded are fringe HOF cases who were known to take steroids. Even then, though, with so many guys having used steroids in the past one could make an argument that it should be dropped as an excluding factor entirely.
The media are full of themselves. In this day, they make up the news and are the news.
Writers need their power to vote revoked.Men who play are the men who should vote.Enough said!
3000 hits,300 wins,500 hrs,1400 rbi thresholds should be automatic with no discussion.We can argue the rest.
So he had PED allegations…
I’m a supporter that those or are simply allegations and never proven guilty should have a shot at the hall. But if your gonna block one, you have to block all. Especially considering the ones you block performed significantly better that DO …
Exactly. The issue is not Ortiz getting into the Hall. It’s that others who were better than him are not in the Hall. Either let them all in or take Ortiz out of the picture.
New York Times printed test failure allegations.
What are everyone’s thoughts on Jim Edmonds falling off a couple of years ago? I was personally shocked that he didn’t make it. Take Griffey away and he may have been the best center fielder of that time. Would love to hear comments.
Great… yes. HOF? …no.
Listening to David Ortiz supporters is like listening to Ryan Braun supporters. Practically the same arguments while ignoring things that are factual with a touch of common sense.
Ortiz failed a PED test when MLB was taking a sample = FACT
Ortiz appearing on the Mitchell Report = NOT A FACT
Ortiz was a known client of Angel Presinal’s “training” = FACT
No Red Sox players were named in the Mitchell Report = FACT
Players that chose to snitch on others were removed from the Mitchell Report = FACT
Cheater cheater steroid eater
I’m glad to see they didn’t ban ALL of the PED users from the HOF.
As long as you shut up you get in. Ortiz isn’t the first.
yankee fan here who never wanted to see him at the plate in any kind of pressure situation. 100% belongs in the hall. not his fault the voters are idiots regarding bonds/clemens
David Ortiz… 55 WAR first ballot Hall of Fame
Lou Whitaker 71 WAR still waiting
Mike drop
Yeah, but did Sweet Lou ever play the funny big Latino stereotype the white press love in a major market? It’s pretty clear what it takes to get past the gatekeepers now.
See, if you play nice with the media the gatekeepers let you in. I’m guessing there’s still deliberation on Barry Bond’s stats…are they Hall worthy? What a joke. Lesson kids….be quiet and don’t be a dick, because some person who doesn’t even watch baseball gets to vote on your personality.