Over the past few weeks, we’ve covered a series of issues that figure to be key areas of dispute in collective bargaining talks. In early stages of negotiations, Major League Baseball and the MLB Players Association presented varying proposals regarding such things as playoff expansion, the service time structure and the competitive balance tax.
Today’s collective bargaining issue seems, on the surface, as though it should be easier to solve. Expanding the designated hither to the National League seems to have appeal to both parties. The union would welcome the creation of 15 bat-only positions that might expand the market for defensively-limited players and aging stars. As many teams have prioritized constructing rosters with defensive flexibility, the market has devalued non-elite corner bats in free agency and arbitration. A universal DH wouldn’t reverse that trend entirely, but it should be of some benefit to offense-first players.
The league, meanwhile, seems likely to embrace the universal DH as a means of aiding offense. The sport’s ever-increasing strikeout rate has drawn plenty of consternation. The leaguewide strikeout percentage ticked upwards every year between 2005 and 2020, setting an all-time record each season. Last year finally marked a stop to the record-breaking streak, as the strikeout rate marginally slipped from 23.4% to 23.2%. That’s perhaps a bit encouraging, but last year’s number still checked in almost seven percentage points above 2005’s 16.4% mark.
Pitchers aren’t the only culprit for the decrease in balls in play, but they’ve had real issues making contact. Last year, pitcher-hitters fanned at a 44.2% clip. Overall, they hit .110/.150/.142 across 4,830 plate appearances. That’s ghastly production, even by the historically low standards at the position. Their five highest all-time strikeout rates have come in the last five years of pitcher hitting. Four of the five lowest pitcher-hitters’ wRC+ (which compares their overall offensive output to that season’s league average marks) have come since 2017. However one wants to explain that trend — improved leaguewide velocities, specialization that leads to less practice for pitcher hitting, etc. — pitchers are putting up less of a fight at the plate than ever before.
Just as the universal DH won’t alone reinvigorate the market for defensively-limited sluggers, it’s not going to erase the game’s strikeout prevalence. Position players already take up the vast majority of at-bats, and they’re striking out a lot. MLB and the union agreed to a universal DH for the 2020 shortened season, and the league still broke its all-time strikeout record. Yet the elimination of pitcher hitting would no doubt have some positive boost on offense that should appeal to those in the league offices.
Given its seemingly mutually beneficial nature, many expect the universal DH to be a part of the upcoming collective bargaining agreement. That said, it was widely expected the NL DH would be in play for 2021 as well, seeing as the parties had agreed to implement it the year before as part of the pandemic protocols. That didn’t wind up happening. The league, reasoning that the players had greater incentive to embrace the universal DH, reportedly sought to tie its introduction to agreement from the union to expand the postseason field (a key revenue generator for MLB). The MLBPA viewed that as an unequal tradeoff and ultimately, neither the universal DH nor playoff expansion were put in place last season.
The potential introduction of a universal DH figures to again come up in discussions once the sides reengage on CBA talks in the coming weeks. If implemented, it’ll no doubt be a divisive provision for viewers. From a fan perspective, the DH is largely an aesthetic question. Some will point to pitcher-hitters’ woeful numbers as evidence that their continued hitting is an anachronism. Others would view the universal DH as a blow to the game’s tradition. In a December poll, 62% of MLBTR respondents expressed support for an NL DH; 26% were against the possibility, while 12% were generally apathetic on the issue.
There have been some creative ways floated to perhaps reduce pitcher-hitting while maintaining an increased amount of late-game strategy. Jayson Stark of the Athletic is among those to have floated the idea of tying the DH to that game’s starting pitcher, such that a team forfeits their DH whenever they remove their starter from the game. It’s theoretically possible the league and union consider such an idea, although it seems they’d have more straightforward interest in simply adding the DH to the NL in its current American League format.
Linking the DH to the starting pitcher will also undercut using openers…unless the DH is at the top of the lineup, in which case you need to have more pinch hitters. If it HAS to happen, maybe that’s the answer…
I hate the idea of the NL potentially getting a full-time DH as it exsists in the AL. I don’t want to see it. That said, attaching the DH to the SP would soften the blow; and it’d be a compromise I wouldn’t entirely hate.
I love the idea of a DH in all of baseball. The NL of MLB is presently the only place where pitchers still come to the plate to attempt to hit. I also don’t see a problem with permanently increasing the rosters to 26 or even 27. Why not?
Rosters have already increased from 25 to 26. Increase to 28 on 9/1 ( down from previous 40 in September) also in effect.
Why not? Cuz it’s already too much with the pitching changes. I don’t want a ten man bullpen. Plus, strategy. I like that managers have to make do with 26.
I agree. If they pull the DH when the starter is pulled there will be more bullpen swaps and the game will be lengthened.
Please my kids can hit better than most big league pitchers and they play at the high school and junior college level not the major leagues.the time for pitchers still batting has long passed.
Stark’s idea to pull the DH with the SP would guarantee that Ohtani would never again be a factor late in a game since he’s either an SP or DH. That would be tragic.
One player, as great as he is, missing some late game ABs is far from “tragic”.
Point blank- AL Baseball is boring. Rarely is there a PH, a double switch or anything resembling strategy after the line-up card is filled out on the offensive side. At least Stark’s suggestion squashes the horrible “opener” concept and keeps an element of late inning strategy in the game.
Ohtani is an example of a pitcher that can actually hit. The NL’s insistence on playing 1 way players on both offense and defense and pretending it’s strategic is sad and pathetic. Nobody is pulling Scherzer in the 4th inning because he’s coming to the plate with 2 outs & a man in scoring position. They simply take the K and hope they score later in the game. At least the opener, annoying as the concept may be, has an actual level of strategy to it. Putting in a PR for your DH in the late innings, tying the game and then having that PR come to bat with the game on the line has much more suspense than putting a PH in for the SP in the 7th.
The Angels could work around it. It wouldn’t be pretty but if Ohtani was DH that game, he could be moved to either 1b or LF while whoever was playing that position would move to DH. Then you take out the SP.
Putting your DH into the field makes you lose the DH regardless, there’s no putting the guy in the field as the DH. But yes, Ohtani could play the field to stay in the lineup, and remove said position players, and the pitchers spot would be in that lineup position.
Of course you would lose the DH with what I suggested. There would be no way around that. The idea was to keep Ohtani in the lineup.
Stark’s suggestion is a solution in search of a problem.
I am all for penalizing teams that use the ridiculous “opener.” Also would like to see “the shift” banned. Teams would have to have a minimum of two defenders in the infield skin and on either side of second base.
Simplest way to beat the shift is to hit into the massive gap on the left side of the field. Start doing that and they stop shifting. That RF can’t run in from the warning track to get that swinging bunt. The Red Sox started hitting into the shift in the playoffs and it worked very well. Once players buy into adapting to what their opponent is giving them instead of stubbornly swinging for the fences every AB the shift will go away.
And basketball players shouldn’t be able to touch the rim either right? Why regulate how long your starting pitcher has to stay in the game. The three batter rule shouldn’t even be a thing imo. And if you want to put all of your guys on one side of the field and leave the other side open, so be it. The shift isn’t without risk. Teams should be able to strategize as they chose.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but unless the universal DH comes with an added roster spot, it isn’t really creating extra jobs, is it? You might create jobs for defensively limited players or aging stars, but at the expense of that extra bullpen arm or offensively limited utility player that occupies the bottom of the roster. Just a thought!
That’s how I see it, too. Creating a job would mean adding a roster spot. This is carving out more of a niche for players incapable of playing the field.
Not new jobs, but more jobs for some of the veteran players who are recently being squeezed out as the league gravitates toward less expensive players.
The universal DH seems like a done deal, but don’t expect the players to make significant concessions to get it.
And fewer jobs for others. DH does not “create” jobs. What a silly statement. Repurposes would be more accurate.
It would create more good paying jobs.
In effect it exchanges a low paid middle reliever or utility man for a highly paid slugger. The union is all in on DH and it’s an easy thing for the league to agree to as a concession. This is an absolute done deal.
Adding the DH to the NL doesn’t create “more” jobs, but it will create a “better paying” one. Teams will spend more money for someone who can hit rather than a back-end bullpen piece or 4th or 5th outfielder.
No, roster spots will be the same. Theoretically is another starting job that comes with a starting player pay. But not all teams use a defined DH. But it does potentially increase the pay for some players and gives them a job they might not otherwise have.
From the union standpoint, its all about dollars. The thought is that a full time DH is going to get paid more than a utility player who pinch hits. JDM, Nelson Cruz, Miggy, Pujols are all going to get paid more than a utility player like Wade, Arroyo, or Castro. If they get the extra roster spot, even better.
Not to mention the fact that it brings more teams to compete for dh players. More competition makes for higher salaries.
It certainly makes the white Sox roster more valuable, since they have around 4 or 5 starting players whose best function would be that of a DH.
Defensive Hardship.
I’m not sure that players are going to go from unemployed to ‘high-paid. That’s quite a jump. However, in theory, a player like Nelson Cruz would have more options as far as interested teams, so I see that argument. But to say that a player like Edwin Encarnación is suddenly going to be ‘highly-paid’ is unrealistic, especially since this only changes things for half the league. I just don’t really see it having that much of an impact on free agency. A little, but not much.
There’s to many rp specialists as it is. If you’re going to destroy the history and strategy that is National League baseball, the least they should do is tie the DH to the SP.
Re Ohtani: They could use him as a defensive replacement when he gets pulled as a SP. If they have him as the DH, make a double switch the Ohtani to the outfield, OF goes to the bench,and the RP is in play.
So now you are benching Mike Trout or Jo Adell for no good reason. That makes total sense. There is a reason pitcher’s stats improve moving from the AL to NL, they face lineups with at least one easy out vs lineups with no place to hide. The tradition of pretending pitchers are 2 way players by forcing them to do something they are incapable of doing is worth putting in the dust bin of history.
Give us the DH! It’s good for everyone involved as it limits pitcher injuries to pitching things! Like Soroka wouldntve happened with the DH. Please MLB and MLBPA, don’t scree the pooch
Tstats. Soroka tore his Achilles while pitching. He then reinjured it just simply walking. The DH has absolutely nothing zero to do with Soroka and his Achilles.
Wiat then who hurt their hamstring running to first? I thought it was a Braves pitcher?
There are one or two examples in history, but nowhere near as many as some pro-DH fans think there are. It’s a non-issue, and nothing to do with why there will be universal DH (which is entirely economic).
That was Max Fried. Side note Max Fried is also one of a select few pitchers in MLB that can actually swing a bat.
Charlie Morton tore his hamstring running to first when he was pitching for Philadelphia. I think it was only his third or fourth start. Lost the season and didn’t return.
This is patently false
He CANNOT hit. A .530 OPS is proof he cannot hit and if he wasn’t a pitcher he wouldn’t be in the league even he had platinum glove defense. Ohtani is a pitcher that can hit. NL pitchers with an OPS a beer league softball player could put up can’t hit. Stop pretending.
The concept of pitchers hitting is patently false. Getting hurt on the rare occasion they make contact happens often.
That is false, Stat. There are plenty of glove only players in the Bigs. You’re also taking a Pitchers OPS and comparing it to those of other positions as a baseline, tailoring it to your argument. That’s akin to arguing a Gold Glove 1B can’t field if he doesn’t have the range of a SS. You compare players to their peers at the position.
Before you say: “But I’m right! Pitchers can’t hit.” Yada… Yada.. Yada… Half the Catchers in the league can’t either. Everything is relative to the position. It doesn’t mean you just take the bat out of their hands because Max Fried isn’t Mike Trout at the dish.
But I’ll tell you what, you go find me a Beer League softball player who can post a .530 OPS against MAJOR league pitching and I’ll reconsider my position.
A .700 OPS the generally agreed minimum target for a replacement player, no matter how valuable they are defensively, including catchers. Some get by below that, but not by much. Brad Asumus had an 18 yr career as a weak hitting catcher and his career OPS is .656, 100 points above your pitcher “that can hit”. How about Mac Scherzer, his OPS last year was 0.000. I’m pretty sure even I could put up an all zero stat line. Pitchers can’t hit. They are 1 way players and simply lowering the bar waaay below everyone else doesn’t change anything.
Lat muscle stains and tears while batting.
The Astros had a pitcher named Carlos Hernandez who basically ended his career by sliding into second, and I’ve been in favor of universal DH ever since.
Universal DH is a terrible idea. Please keep taking all the strategy out of the game so I can spend my time, and money somewhere else. And pitchers should be taking batting practice daily, with the rest of the team in order to help their own numbers, as well as the teams. The game is becoming all about offense, and less about any kind of strategic moves that make it interesting. If I wanted HR derby, I’d just watch the preliminary all star game stuff. We’re the customers. If the product no longer serves as entertainment, I’m leaving. And I’m taking generations of potential baseball fans with me, because I won’t be introducing my kids, and grand kids to this game.
What strategy? Managers don’t make that decision any more. All that is done by the FO and computer readouts.
That’s not the case in the NL. When a pitcher comes out of the game is an important strategic move. If the game is tight in the 6th inning, and your guy is pitching a great game, but you’re down by a run, you have the chance to score a run, what do you do? That decision has an effect on the rest of the game. And that decision is made by the manager, no the the front office.
Less and less every year, unfortunately, but not because the pitchers hit. It’s because managers don’t let their starters go into the 3rd time through the lineup anymore, unless he’s throwing a shutout or something. The strategy of the game has been taken away by everyone wanting to do the same thing because the data says you get a 5% advantage..
I agree. And pitch counts of 100 pitches, or less don’t help anything. I thought it was ridiculous when they went to a 120 pitch pitch count. You don’t see starters go more than 5-6 innings anymore. It didn’t used to be that way, and Tommy John surgery used to be a rarity. Something they’re doing isn’t working.
Many many guys are throwing much harder with an increase in sliders/cutters resulting in more arm issues. And so many more strikeouts (almost a 50% increase since 2005! ) has ruined the enjoyment of the game. Balls in play=entertainment. Baseball has changed SO much since 2005, it’s very sad.
Get off my lawn!
Glad you agree
So you honestly think Max is rolling in the 6th inning with only 70-80 pitches and a manager is going to pull him because he’s coming to plate with a man in scoring position??? Feel free to find the one time that has actually happened. Pitch counts, times thru the line up, & match ups drive pitching changes not the silly double switch.
And you’re a Yankee fan. Why do you get a say about the rules in the NL. Stick to the AL if you like the DH.
It has nothing to do with my thoughts on the DH. Personally, though I’m in the minority, I like that the leagues are different. And I comprehend the decision having to be made. I don’t care which league it is, those decisions are no longer left up to the manager.
You’d be wrong though. They aren’t paying a manager to do nothing. And if he makes no on field decisions, he has no job. And those are dollars that can be spent on on the field talent. I would agree that FO’s make certain decisions that managers used to, but not all. The manager should know his clubhouse, and you can’t use saber metrics to judge how a player is feeling on a particular day, of how his personal life is affecting him. FO’s can put together metrics on how players perform in general. But a manager has to know when there is an aberration, and make moves accordingly.
So many times you hear stories of a pitcher saying he has nothing and the manager going with his gut and pitching him anyway. And the pitcher throws a no hitter or perfect game. So yeah it is important to know what your players are capable of and a computer can’t do that.
I too was originally very much against the DH. But you just get used to the pitcher not batting. You dont even notice it. Theres just a couple less commercials during the game.
Same with me. I watch pretty much only NL baseball but when I watch interleague in AL cities I find it doesn’t really bother me. There’s less and less strategy in baseball, true, but the DH has little to do with it.
The strategy of double switches is way overblown. And honestly, most fans don’t watch the game for strategy, they watch to see players perform. And watching pitchers flail away stinks.
Go ahead and take your ball and go home if that is what you want to do. A childish thing to do.
The problem is that “see players perform” at this point is just staring at the TV waiting for a long at bat to resolve as a strikeout, walk, or home run. It’s boring to non-baseball fans and the game will die as a result. My kids have zero interest in watching the game as it exists today because nothing ever happens. When you had more balls in play, stolen bases, pinch hitters, etc there were topics to discuss during the game, to analyze, to enjoy. Now it’s just a slow grind for fans. For that matter, I can’t imagine how it feels to be a third baseman who fields one ball a game.
You mean you don’t watch all the year-end MLB Top Double Switch highlight reels?
It’s not only a double switch. If that’s the only thing you take from a pitchers batting standpoint, you’re missing the way his removal can affect the game. A childish thing to no longer watch a game that no longer interests you? What’s childish about that? I’m a customer of MLB. If their product no longer appeals to me, why in the world would I keep watching?
Removing the pitcher when his time came up in the order was interesting in the ‘50s/60’s and even 70’s when pitchers actually pitched complete games. They rarely ever do today in either league and are routinely pulled in the 6th or 7th. With a DH the decision is based solely on the pitcher’s performance, can he still be effective, and not can I afford another easy out this inning and pull him next inning or pull him now?
As an Astros fan, I saw a thousand comments about never watching baseball again once the team moved to the AL. Pretty sure most of them stuck around.
Also, it you care about baseball so much that this bothers you this intensely, I would guess you’ll get over it. The DH idea has been around for over 100 years. That is most of baseball history. It has been in effect in the AL for 50 years. Even if you are an older person, it has been around most of your life.
The NL is the aberration in world baseball. This is long overdue.
So don’t NL pitchers take batting practice? Seems like that would make good sense.
Also, I know very few who go to a game to see the manager “manage”.
Personally, I just want it the same in both leagues, with or without. The AL pitchers look lost in the WS.
Pitchers are pitchers because they have great arms but can’t hit. Otherwise they’d be SS or CF. Babe Ruth was moved to the OF despite being one of the best pitchers of his day because they needed him to hit every game. It has nothing to do with practice.
So should we also be clamoring for all position players to throw bullpen sessions alongside the pitchers? Just in case the game’s a blow out and they need to log a few junk innings? Hitting and pitching are two completely different skill sets, and guys are (typically) drafted, and subsequently paid for excelling at one of those two skills. The reality is, forcing all pitchers to hit and expecting them to devote the time, energy, and stress to do it well on top of all of their other physical work and preparation simply doesn’t really make sense. I am a lifelong NL fan and I’m done with this silly idea. Yes, some pitchers can hit and it can be fun watching them up there when they can, but in those cases, you can find another way to get them at bats if you really want to as a pinch hitter or give them the Ohtani treatment if they’re really a prodigy. No more of our time should be wasted watching these junky at bats.
While we’re at it, let’s implement a new rule where we force a position player to pitch one inning per game, for no practical reason whatsoever. It’s essentially the same idea.
Why not just make the game Home Run derby? If all you want is the long ball, the rest of the game is just filler. 1 hr of home run derby, and they’ve solved the “under 3 hr” problem. You’re comparing apples and oranges. Pitching is a skill set that only a few posses. But hitting is something all players used to do, and they should all be doing it now.. It’s a strategic move that baseball needs to keep. They remove all the strategy, and there is no game. That is the direction they are headed. Home run derby is boring to watch.
I don’t enjoy the way the game has become a home run bonanza either. I actually found the Dodgers-Astros World Series in 2017 one of the least enjoyable to watch ever, for that exact reason, but the increase in home runs and strikeouts are related to how hitters are approaching at bats in the modern era, and that’s not going to change. I just want to see professional at-bats from professional hitters. I also would like to see the game become more contact-oriented and allow players’ raw skills (defense, speed, base-running, etc.) to be on display, which is much more exciting. Also, to your point, it’s true that all pitchers used to hit at some point in their past, but they weren’t necessarily any good at it, and I don’t necessarily want to watch it.
This is an utter fallacy. Pitchers have always been poor hitters. Even the ‘best’ ones don’t hit well enough to stay in the lineup at any other position, that’s why they pitch, the team can afford losing their bat for 4 out of every 5 games.
There is no reduction in strategy, just a shift in strategy. It’s not like there’s a crazy amount of strategy anyways. It’s basically just using common sense. Well, it was until managers stopped being able to manage and analytics changed everything. You want more strategy, remove analytics.
I’m firmly on the tradition side of things, but it won’t greatly ruin the game if it comes
Has anyone done the math on what the projected impact would be on the league strikeout rate if pitcher at-bats (and the elevated degree to which they strike out) were replaced with non-pitcher at-bats of roughly league average performance? I’m curious how much it moves the needle. One point? Less?
I find it interesting that the league’s strikeout issues are being pinned on pitchers ABs. I can’t sit here and say they don’t contribute, but that would be to suggest the AL doesn’t share the same issues.
Want to reduce strikeouts? Ban the shift. When you have every practically every position player on the batter’s pull side the inclination is going to be to sell out for power, thus trying to hit it in the stands where they aren’t.
While it’s not a perfect metric for how things might change moving forward, the 2021 strikeout rate excluding pitchers was 22.6%, six tenths of a point lower than the overall league mark.
fangraphs.com/leaders/splits-leaderboards?splitArr…
Nobody seems to be even slightly interested in how many PAs pitchers actually make in NL games (seldom more than two in any game), and how much actual difference the DH makes offensively in the AL. The answer is the difference year after year is in the low single digits, just as you’d expect based on the number of actual PAs made by NL pitchers. So quoting the batting lines for NL pitchers is basically a nonsense rationale for fundamentally altering the game. But hey at least we get to see more of those aging sluggers who field like a fencepost with a glove and have to be wheeled to first base. Totally worth it.
I’d much rather watch someone who can actually hit take an AB than a pitcher flail away pointlessly. It’s like watching a position player pitch at the end of a blow out game. Both are equally effective.
I guess you don’t watch much baseball, or just didn’t understand my point.
Understood your point entirely. You prefer to watch a pitcher take an AB like a scared T Ball player and put up all zeros like Max Scherzer in 2021 than watch someone who can actually hit. If pitchers lack of hitting is insignificant then how is replacing them “fundamentally changing the game”??? Doesn’t work both ways. That’s the reason experienced pitchers stats improve moving from the AL to NL, the number of ineffective hitters is much larger because of pitchers hitting. Max reduced his WHIP by 20% moving to the NL at age 30. Same for CC when he did. Plenty of examples.
No, I really don’t think you do. Of course it works “both ways.” The first problem is you exaggerate the impact of pitcher PAs by totally ignoring the fact that the number they take in any given game and overall is actually very tiny. Second, you totally ignore the actual difference in offense the DH produces, and the fact that it is just as tiny as you would expect to be if you hadn’t ignored the first fact. Third, you make the classic mistake of believing that for instance proves anything. Fourth, you totally ignore the fact that making productive outs is still a thing in baseball, and a lot of pitchers are actually good at it. Other than that, a great argument for changing the game so it meets with your preferences.
It seems service time is the most contentious issue. Whichever side does or doesnt get that extra year of control should gain or lose drastically with CBT, playoff expansion, raises, etc.
Bartolo Colon is no longer pitching in the bigs so I don’t care at all.
Both the owners and the players would like the DH. The sticking point is whether it is a bargaining chip or not.
The owners argue that the DH is a benefit for the players and thus it counts as a bargaining chip, i. E the players should give up something to get the DH.
The players on the other hand argue it is a mutual benefit so they shouldn’t have to give up something to get it because it benefits the owners too (more attractive games and thus higher viewership).
So really the reason why there was no universal dh in 2021 was that owners didn’t want to lose it as a bargaining chip.
Yes, exactly. The owners will use anything they can to leverage the players. That will be the only hang up for a universal DH in the current CBA negotiations.
Yes. You’re right. Because they don’t consider their customers.
I’d like to see the DH eliminated in both leagues. Pitchers should be able to pitch and hit just like a shortstop should be able to field and hit. We’ve created a group of prima donnas who think they don’t have to have a rounded out skillset. How much more value would a pitcher add to himself if he can also hit, ala Ohtani.
I have been watching baseball for quite a few years and I don’t believe there is another Ohtani out there being deprived of an at bat. High school players college players and all minor league teams employ the DH. And then suddenly if they end up being called to the bigs and they are in the NL they are a hitter as well as a pitcher. Not very exciting in my mind.
Hey Doug. I don’t think there is another Ohtani either. My point was that pitchers have learned to only develop half of the skill set it takes to be a well rounded ball player. Even in the NL where pitchers bat, their hitting stats are terrible. I think they should be held to the standard all other players are held to which is defense and offense.
If the lower level leagues returned to pitchers batting, the level of skill would be greater by the time they reach MLB.
When I was a kid a million years ago, the youth league and high school pitchers were often the best athletes, and most were good hitters. How many good or great hitters lose their batting skills coming up through a DH-only system?
Pitchers can’t hit and couldn’t “back in the day “. Bob Gibson had a career OPS of .500, Sandy Koufax was .250 with a -26 career OPS+. Nobody cared because they were HOF pitchers. Feel free to find 3 or 4 pitchers not named Ohtani with an OPS+ over 100 in the last 70+ years. Clock’s ticking…..
That’s a pretty ridiculous comment. By your logic, every player should have to learn how to pitch. A pitcher’s focus has and will always be pitching.
tomahawk – Huh? That’s an odd misinterpretation. Every player should learn their position and hitting. A SS should learn to play SS and hit, 2b, catcher, pitcher, etc. It has nothing to do with pitching unless you’re a pitcher.
Without the DH Othani isn’t pitching he’s moved to the OF or 1B. Ohtani only pitches in the AL where he can DH on the days he doesn’t pitch. You don’t pull that bat out of the lineup 4 out of 5 days and have him hit only 2-3 times per game. Not letting him pitch would be a shame.
Implement the Universal DH. The rules should be the same for both leagues. The DH gives guys a lighter workload for a night. If you want the tradition of having the pitcher hit, insert last nights pitcher into the lineup as tonight’s DH.
If you know any of the history of this game, you’d know that the rules have very seldom been the same for both leagues. And if anything, we should go back to pitchers batting. If it’s as bad as this article says, it should contribute to getting the game times under 3 hrs, like they want. Just sayin’….
This is true, utterly incompetent hitting does actually speed up the game by avoiding those pesky baserunners. Of course you’d have to ban the double switch and force all the pitchers to hit yo really have an impact.
Can someone help me understand why the MLBPA would be so pro-NL DH? I feel like i must be missing something obvious.
I always read that ‘it will create 15 new bat-only positions’, and while that certainly makes some sense, it’s not as if roster size is increasing for these 15 teams. It’s a zero-sum game, so providing opportunities for bat-only, aging stars just takes away opportunities from younger players, utility players, and/or the 8th relief pitcher on the roster. I imagine that as established DH’s cement themselves into these roster spots, that roster churn would decrease and payroll would get even more concentrated between a smaller number of players at the top, which is something I always thought the MLBPA doesn’t want. It wants earlier arbitration and higher league minimums, both mechanisms that redistribute money to more adequately reward its arb and pre-arb players.. Given that the MLBPA represents all 40-man players, why would it be universally assumed that they’d want to focus on providing opportunities for 15 past-prime bat-only players over what could be opportunities for, say, 30-45 pre-arb players?
Is it really just all about increasing the collective payroll?
And there is no guarantee that the team will spend big on an aging star to be DH. May sign a utility player and switch batters into the DH position, depending if they need rest or not.
Of course, it’s not a guarantee that teams will spend big on an aging DH but it will allow for more competition for their services. Players like Nelson Cruz & JD Martinez saw/see their markets limited to half the league; teams looking to sign them know they have zero competition from 15 teams. With more options, it drives up the price.
(Theoretically at least) it’d be 15 guys who’d otherwise be riding pine for several innings getting more prominent roles, therefore bigger paychecks.
It’s not an extra roster spot, but it could create some higher-paying roles for the few players who are worthy of DH-only status. A Nelson Cruz type. Most teams though will use it as a rotation spot to rest regulars, but it will increase salaries. For example, a team might sign a 4th OFer who they could put into heavy rotation. A good-hitting, defensively challenged player might see more ABs and thus a higher salary. There may not be a direct lift in salaries, but it will at minimum cause an indirect lift.
Owners want to limit injuries to expensive pitching. They want to maximize their investment in expensive hitters as they age but become more defensively challenged. They want additional offense. All reasons they want the DH. The main reason though is often not mentioned. With eventual expansion, there will come realignment. The owners want to standardize the rules before that happens.
One can legitimately argue that management now wants the DH more than the players. The problem is both sides know this, so management asking for a concession from the MLBPA for the DH may create a roadblock. There is still a chance pitchers hit again next year and that the Universal DH isn’t addressed until the next CBA when expansion is on the table.
What an interesting situation. A change that both sides want, but potentially no sides get, because each side wants to frame it as an advantage for the other side and thus deserving of some sort of credit for themselves.
Compromise – 10 man lineup in each league. Pitcher still has to bat and DH only type still get jobs. Increase roster size by 2 but eliminate the september callup.
Compromise: Develop players like Shohei Ohtani who can pitch and hit and then you will have a complete baseball player and no need to worry about all of this nonsense. Sure, it will take time but it will do more benefit to the sport and put some new life into it.
Old, I hope your comment is sarcasm. If not, wow.
Why would it be sarcasm?
Ohtani doesn’t pitch for an NL team w/o the DH. Nobody is sitting that bat on the bench for 4 out of 5 games or putting him in the pen. He’s moved to the OF or 1B.
I think we’ve got a backwards view of how players should be. He used to play Right Field in Japan as well as pitch. I guess old men in America can’t be bothered to be athletic enough to do the same. Sad…
I wonder why no one brings up the fact that by expanding the rosters, you’re going to raise prices on fans. It already costs an arm and leg to go to a game, and now you want to pay 2 more guys, and add to the price of going to a game. It’s not a good compromise for the fans.
Expanding rosters won’t cause ticket prices to go up. I’ve explained this a hundred times. Teams price tickets to maximize total revenue. If they could raise prices and see additional revenue, they’d already have done it. It would be insane for a business to raise prices simply because salaries have gone up because it implies they were already pricing them lower than the market would bear.
So what you’re saying is that the total output of all expenses doesn’t affect revenue streams? I Don’t know where you get that from, but if you raise your output, you have to find a way to make that back, plus some profit. Ticket prices, and concessions are one way that happens. How do you explain that ticket prices go up almost every year? Your premise is ridiculous.
@Ted
As I have explained to you before, half empty stadiums do not maximize revenue, and that’s what most games draw, so they are over pricing tickets. The empty seats do not pay for parking, do not pay for concessions and do not buy souvenirs. When I see a 45,000 seat stadium drawing 18,000-22,000, that tells me they are not maximizing revenues by their ticket prices. Otherwise they would have built a 25,000 seat stadium.
@Stymeedone Ted is 100% correct. Ticket prices are driven by demand for baseball just like airlines. The same seat for that Saturday game against the division leader will cost 10-30% more than the Thursday afternoon game against the cellar dweller. Prices go up when teams sign big contracts because that increases demand, not to cover expenses because there is obviously a limit to how high teams can raise prices before people stop buying. This is Econ 101. Seen it myself buying season tickets over 20 years. Prices increase when the team is good and come down when they are bad because of demand and regardless of contracts.
Nobody brings it up because it’s nonsense. Baseball ticket prices are set by the law of supply and demand to maximize profit, there are zero MLB philanthropist MLB owners who sum up their costs and set prices based on that. If players were unpaid slaves, the ticket price would be the same and owning a team would be much more profitable.
The price of an item nears the cost of production only in a perfectly competitive market, which MLB as a cartel is the exact opposite of.
Compromise: home team decides before the game if pitchers are hitting or the DH is to be used.
Advantage goes to pitchers who can hit.
This would actually allow more use of the DH in games at NL stadiums. Pitchers simply can’t hit, it’s why they are pitchers. The Mets would presumably go with the DH every time Max pitches since he put up a 0.000 OPS last year. Even the “best” hitting pitchers hit worse than the weakest hitting bench position player so it’s not really a question.
This shouldn’t be an issue, it’s a win-win
It’s a win-win for who? Not for the NL customers who don’t want the DH.
How about we just move to an 8 man lineup?
An 8-man lineup is the cleanest solution, and it’s one that would be implemented if the game was just being invented and they knew how inept pitchers would become at hitting. The MLBPA, however, would never agree to it as this stage.
That’s the problem. It’s a win-win and they don’t know how to negotiate that in collective bargaining when some one gives and someone gets. Both getting is confusing to them.
This was responding to @wmurphy24. Didn’t thread properly.
Here’s a compromise I’d like to make. If your main fandom is an American League team, get out of the NL’s business.Go tend to your own leagues rules.
Then stop playing AL teams. We should only play each other once at the end of it all where the top team in the AL plays the top team in the NL and they should play it in a neutral stadium, like Baltimore or the New York Mets stadium, where we will never have to worry about them being in the championship game.
(/scarasm)
I would love to stop playing the AL during the season. And as far as the Mets not being in the WS, I think that’s about to change soon. There’s a newer, richer owner in town, and his name is Steve Cohen. He’s here to put a winning team on the field.
To be honest, I would like if they stopped playing AL-NL games. It just feels overplayed now and no longer interesting. I would like if MLB focused on expanding their league into other countries, such as Japan, Korea & Europe.
Every other sports league has inter league play.
So why does baseball have to follow what other sports do?
Because there are 30 teams so there has to be interleague games every day. There’s and odd amount of teams in each league.If you don’t want interleague than they would have to go back to 16/14.
I’d also like them to get rid of the unbalanced schedule. Facing the teams in your division 19x each is monotonous.
How are you supposed to properly determine a division champion? What’s the point in naming a division winner if you’re not playing the bulk of your games against the other teams in your division?
@Jdt8312, I was unaware we had any control over league rules. This changes everything!
If you’re taking polls that MLB uses to guage fan interest, you do.
I’m with you, JDT- I would love to see an end to interleague play. I’m pretty much just nodding along with what you’re saying on this subject.
Jdt, you sound like a lover scorned. If the DH bothers you that much, just stop watching baseball. It’s much more enjoyable to watch a somewhat competent batter than a guaranteed, uncompetitive at-bat.
I still don’t get the argument for DH in the NL.
Sure you’re copying the jr circuit by adding a player but looking at the jr circuits box score, its 9 up 9 down. The bench players don’t get to hit or pinch run.
It would manipulate playing time for some players on those types of at bat threshold contracts.
More harm than good.
Many AL teams still use pinch runners, defensive replacements, and still pinch hit. You seem to not pay very much attention.
Try reading an al box score!
Pinch runners are frequently used in the AL and the decision carries far more weight than pulling the pitcher in the 6th or 7th. A PR is routinely used for a DH in the 8th or 9th to tie or win a game. If they tie that DH is permanently out of the lineup, replaced by that light hitting PR as you go into extra innings. You can’t simply pinch hit for him because you’ve played 10 of your 12-13 position players and you can’t risk your backup catcher. Do you let him hit in a crucial spot or burn one of your last bench players?!
I’ve been an Astros fan since 1973 and used to loathe the DH. I thought if a player pitches the ball, he should hit the ball, if he hits the ball he should field the ball.
I’ve since come to realize that the DH is not the evil thing I once thought. I’m now of the belief that it’s a good thing. Possibly prolonging the careers of both pitchers and hitters. Just my view of it.
Thank you for an outlook that actually involves a little common sense
Generally, I do not like the DH. I like players (exclude pitchers) to be aspiring 5-tool guys.
When A.L. teams play in N.L. parks they have to adjust and must decide who/where/if their DH will play defensively. Weird mindset. Not so bad an idea for weird computer geeks to contemplate once in a while. Then tell manager what to do.
The compromise solution is tying the DH to the Starting Pitcher. If starting pitcher is removed so must DH or at least another starting player. The DH is hitter for starter pitcher only. The original DH could remain in game by changing to defensive position. But someone from the starting batting order must be removed and the (relief) pitcher subbed into that spot in the batting order.
I think an additional roster spot should be added. Anyone can fill it. But, this will be for a 5-tool guy I am guessing. Maybe hoping.
… someone who can play baseball, not sit in the clubhouse on cold days getting a rubdown and watching videos between his DH at-bats.
You must not like pitchers since they are literally 1 tool players. At least the DH plays every day, unlike pitchers. They sit in the clubhouse 4 out of 5 days doing nothing in addition to providing no value when their team is hitting. In the AL a man on 3B with 2 outs in the 3rd inning and the DH at the plate is an exciting moment. In the NL that situation with the pitcher at the plate is time to take a bio break. He isn’t getting double switched in the 3rd and 99% of the time he’s an easy out.
exciting as the AL dh is generally woken up from their nap.
That being the case, Mets should make deGrom the regular DH, as he hit .364 last season. And then sign Colon to hit that walk off HR when needed.
Yes DeGrom raised his career BA all the way .204 with those 13 hits. Truly exciting baseball.
De-value corner infielders…lol I seriously hope that no player rep has ever said that
Love everything riffraff said, especially eliminating the September expansion.
I accept the DH as an inevitability, but I do argue that it doesn’t create more jobs, and harms middle relievers (starters don’t need to be pulled as early) and defensive replacements.
Least you’ll have plenty of content with these columns when there is no baseball.
I blame Al.
I appreciate the argument of NL purist, but I’d prefer to watch a DH hit instead of a pitcher unless the pitcher is Shohei Ohtani or someone who hits like him. With pitching being so valuable to a team’s success, you don’t want pitchers getting injured on the offensive side. You can replace a position player not named Mike Trout or Mookie Betts easier than a good pitcher.
Just say No
to universal DH
to expanded playoffs
to salary floors
To Manfred
To Toni.
Just say Yes
To hiring the Superfife.
To just PLAYING BASEBALL.
Hire you for what? Bat boy? Hot dog vendor? Sure. Anything more important. No, just no!
Couldn’t be any worse than what we have. Most of the teams send guys up there who either strike out, walk (but don’t run) or hit a home run. Imagine if these guys actually had to play against the players of the past. Most of today’s players wouldn’t have even made it to the majors.
Yeah, everyone knows the story of Babe Ruth laying down a bunt for that kid in the hospital.
Who cares anymore if the NL the DH? I’m a traditionalist, and I used to hate the idea of the DH (in either league), but the game has changed so much that it doesn’t matter anymore. There is nothing “traditional” about baseball in today’s world.
@Tom You’re not wrong. Small-ball is dead. I love the idea of no DH for the NL, but in today’s game it doesn’t matter.
Ban the DH.
The difference in AL & NL baseball was more pronounced in the past when batters had sound fundamentals. Although I’m a fan of an AL team, I much prefer old school NL baseball (vive les Expos!). That said, the universal DH seems inevitable.
It’s not inevitable if the CUSTOMERS speak up.
Customers don’t matter. In the midst of a pandemic where everyone is suffering in some form or another, millionaires are arguing with billionaires and we have no baseball.
We have no baseball because it’s the offseason, and there would be very little going on at this point anyway. Once pitcher and catchers reporting passes, then I’d say we have a problem.
@Jdt8312 I beg to differ. Many teams don’t even have completed rosters. This is often an extremely busy time, particularly for this site, but we’re seeing a transaction freeze,
I miss the build-up to the season. Spring Training, such a unique attribute of the sport, I miss the anticipation of pitchers & catchers reporting. The owners & players are being careless with fan loyalty. It’s not 1994, the world has changed dramatically and, should the need arise to reengage the average MLB fan, I don’t think that return is automatic (and rightfully so). People will find alternatives. But, let’s hope this all gets settled in a harmless manner.
@Jdt8312, it is inevitable because even the majority of NL fans are now in favor of the Universal DH.
Says who? A bunch of unscientific polls? I never got polled on the subject.
This should be one of the easiest things for both sides to agree to. Pitchers won’t have to face 98-MPH heaters, teams won’t have as many gaping holes in their lineups, and the players will get more money overall. As fans, I feel we win, too. I like the strategy in the NL, but the majority of pitchers are just embarrassingly bad with the bat. I’d much rather watch a guy like Schwarber, Castellanos, or Cruz bat.
The time has come for the universal DH. The game changes, evolves. It is a myth that it has not changed. Hell, they threw underhanded in the beginning of organized baseball and did not have gloves. To deny it has changed or that it will continue to change is to deny progress.
They use the DH in college, they use the DH in the minors. The ONLY place pitchers hit in the higher levels of organized baseball is in the NL, and between NL teams in AA and AA. IF the NL wants to cater to the minority and let pitchers hit, then do so only in games involving NL teams. Use the DH in interleague play and in the WS. And yes, those of you who want pitchers to hit are in the minority. Poll after poll shows that.
Yep…just like those polls that showed President Hillary Clinton. Public Polls are propaganda.
If league after league lowered their head and ran straight first into a brick wall for giggles, would it make sense to follow?
The Union is wise not to tie it to concessions on their part, because it affects a relatively small number of players (like the QO) and, in fact, also benefits the teams. A lot of NL teams have long term contracts with aging players who would benefit from DH-ing occasionally while keeping their bats in the lineup–or even moving them over on a semi-permanent basis. Adopting the Universal DH would mitigate some of the drag on value of those longer term contracts. It also adds value to the DH “inventory” that teams currently have on their rosters, which might be turned into prospects at the trading deadline.
I am an NL fan and I am anti-DH. I would prefer just keeping the status quo, although I can see how it can hurt the NL as NL teams are less able to sign free agent hitters to long contracts. I remember that was a bigger issue in the late 2000s. Nowadays, all teams are wary of signing aging players to long contracts.
Do the players vote on issues like this? Everyone says that the players want a universal DH, but I can think of several kinds of players who would oppose it:
A) marginal bench players. These guys are unlikely to be given regular DH time. The DH means less pinch hitting and defensive replacements, which is bad for them. Giving more opportunities to aging, immobile, defensively challenged players is clearly bad for players who are not like that.
B) Relievers: Wouldn’t they rather face starting pitchers and pinch hitters instead of DHs?
C) Starting pitchers: I suspect most SPs are pro-DH as they don’t want to get injured or taken out of a game for a PH. However, many SPs enjoy hitting and don’t want to face DHs.
I used to hate the idea of the DH. But after watching Aaron Nola hit with two outs and RISP too often, I’m starting to warm up to the idea of the DH.
If this CBA doesn’t lock in the universal DH rule, I will protest MLB for one year. It is absurd to watch clumsy pitchers trying to bat.
For years I have submitted the NL DH rule should be a game day decision by the home team whether or the DH is in play. If the visiting team has an above average DH (think Edgar Martinez or David Ortiz) the home team could chose to eschew the DH. The visiting team would then either have to risk having the DH play a position to keep their bat in the game or put them on the bench. Do you want Frank Thomas at 1B or Khris Davis in LF? Probably not. At least there is some strategy to the DH this way.
Teams used to have a DH in the four hole to compensate for the light hitting SS/2B that was batting lead off. Those days are gone. Now everyone swings for the fences including the SS. The DH role is for those that need a day off or are dealing with a leg injury. You see very few players like Nelson Cruz. The MLBPA is only interested in expanding the roster. The owners likely see value in getting some production out of players that are limping a bit but certainly doesn’t want an expanded roster.
I’ve been anti DH since 1975 because it takes so much managerial strategy away from the game, however after watching pitchers hit again last year I’ve completely changed my mind. Watching pitchers hit is usually excruciating. They’re usually simply trying not to get injured. The game has evolved. The DH is in, rosters to 27. One change I would make is expand rosters to 32 in September. So many players who deserved a big league at bat or inning last September didn’t get one.
I have no faith in MLB leadership. They have the worst history of any professional sport. From banning black players, adding 8 games to the season, the DH, unbalanced schedules, more and more playoff teams, etc, etc.
I hope I’m wrong but I see 50 years from now baseball being like football… 18-player teams, 9 offense, 9 defense. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I wouldn’t put it past the idiots in charge.
Something that never gets discussed is that the Dh does more to improve your defense than your offense. That defensive liability that now would only hit and not play D is replaced by a better defender. So I contend that great fielders who don’t hit that well are now going to have more jobs available. In essence, theyre hitting ability is to be compared to how pitchers fare. Billy Hamilton, Jackie Bradley, etc would now have BOTH leagues desiring their services. Not just the AL. Think about it…
Do you really think the owners or players care one iota? C’mon, man!!!!!!
Does anybody really want to see a bunch of has beens that can’t run, or play the field try to hit? Seriously? I thought it was a good thing for out of shape players to get off the field. Now we want to create more jobs for them in the NL. Just great. Why don’t we pull the fences in a few more feet while we’re at it….oh wait, then the has beens will have less time to get to 2nd base…..
If the union gives in to the DH.They only want 1 thing in exchange.26 man rosters
They already have 26-man roster spots.
Years ago I wanted the DH to go away completely.
Times change.
Its ridiculous to me that the 2 leagues operate under different rules.
And as long as pitchers don’t hit in the minor leagues, they shouldn’t suddenly start doing something that was not part of their development.
Virtually every level and version of baseball and softball for that matter includes the DH or in some leagues an EH. No reason to debate it any longer. Silly to have $40 million dollar a year pitchers risking injury to bunt a runner over. The Stark compromise DH idea is even worse. It would force teams to still spend some time and effort having pitchers practice hitting and being forced into an even more rare occurrence of hitting would increase injury risk!
NL should adopt the DH in it’s AL format. People talk about the tradition of the game being upheld yet no one plays small ball anymore. Players basically go up there now looking to hack away and try to hit for power. Keep the pitchers focused on their general purpose which is to pitch. Let positional players DH and maintain the health of pitchers and aging/injury prone players.
And do you think that’s a good thing? Yes, let’s keep hitting into the shift. Great idea. If we’re using saber metrics, the chances of scoring increase with a runner on first. Bunting down the third base line would help with that. Outs are supposed to be precious. You keep trying to hit into overwhelming defense, you’re not helping your cause. Someday someone will realize this, and it’ll change.
Let’s take kids on little league teams with fantastic arms and move them to the mound to teach them to pitch. Once they get to Junior High let’s get them focused on pitching, no need for the batting cage, we DH for them now and right through HS, college, the minors and the majors, no batting skills necessary………..or maybe we put the same emphasis on all aspects of the game for all players, eliminate the DH from every level and have 9 batters in a major league lineup that know how to hit. I like the 2nd option
As long as it’s renamed “designated hither” I’m totally behind the change.
The National League should never have the Dumb Hitter simply because if a player can’t play in the field they have ZERO business being on a Big League Roster & the Dumb Hitter will be another step in destroying the Game of Baseball.
I say if fans prefer the Dumb Hitter then they should only watch American League Games & leave the National League Game alone.
Maybe leave the option for the manager to use the DH spot for his pitcher to hit then Ohtani can be taken out as a pitcher but still DH late in the game.
Or maybe legalize steroids? Corked bats for all?
Owners will give the union 26 man rosters but they want 1 extra round of playoffs.Money for the owners,1 salary on every team.Sorry traditional fans,the players will vote on a nl DH while expanding rosters by 1 player.Vote might be unanimous adding 1 more player to the show per team.
This union shouldn’t be under estimated.They are strong,they take care of their own retirees with pensions and medical benefits.Now their focus is the minors and the youngsters getting paid.There will be no caving friends.Baseball will give in to the players.This isn’t 40 yrs ago when guys were lucky to be worth 1 million.Today these men have generational money,property,charities & advertising connections to keep all the boys afloat.2 yrs ago Puljos paid all of the halos minors out of his own pocket.Ohtani paid the stadium and front office people with his hr derby dough.You can’t bluff money if they want to call & make the owners show you their hand.
I have watched the nl teams i root for lose out on players in their early thirties too often. Al teams have the options to move players to dh after a player ages out of his position. One extra year on a contract is often a differance maker and a huge advantage that AL teams have. Bringing the dh to both leagues levels the field.
Universal DH is what’s best for the future of the game.