From the outside looking in, it would appear that the Red Sox catching situation is fairly well set. After all, they have $9.25MM committed to their incumbent backstop tandem of Christian Vazquez and Kevin Plawecki, each having been brought back on a guaranteed contract. Boston could have easily gotten out of the commitment to either player through the declination of a team option and non-tender, respectively, but their decision to bring the duo back suggests comfort with continuity.
There may be another move yet to make, however, writes Chris Cotillo of Masslive.com. To his point, Boston isn’t committed to either Vazquez or Plawecki beyond 2021. Connor Wong and Ronaldo Hernandez could play themselves into the big league picture, but while both are prospects, neither are blue-chippers. To prove the point, Cotillo reiterated that Boston had made a bid for Jacob Stallings before the Pirates dealt their backstop the Marlins.
Any ground-shifting move would have to come via the trade market, as the free agent crop of catchers has already been picked clean of prospective starters, as MLBTR’s Mark Polishuk explored not long ago. Yan Gomes, Manny Pina, Pedro Severino, and Roberto Perez signed with the Cubs, Braves, Brewers, and Pirates, respectively. Even backups Sandy Leon (Guardians) and Andrew Knapp (Reds) found new homes. That leaves veterans Robinson Chirinos, Kurt Suzuki, and Wilson Ramos as the most decorated options remaining, and those three haven’t been above-average starters behind the plate since 2019.
On the trade market, there are a number of teams with flexible catching rooms that might be willing to shake things up in the right deal. The Cubs’ Willson Contreras sounded none too happy about the Gomes signing, and he’s on the final year of his deal. The Yankees would move Gary Sanchez, but they, like the Red Sox, would need to upgrade if they were going to move him. Anyone with a long-term need at catcher should be in contact with the Blue Jays, though Toronto isn’t likely all that eager to send one of their young backstops (Alejandro Kirk, Gabriel Moreno) to a division rival. Reese McGuire might be a realistic target, if not for Boston, then maybe somewhere else where he could shake loose another starting-level masked man.
Looking elsewhere, Carson Kelly of the Diamondbacks brings the right blend of current ability and future team control, and with the Diamondbacks facing an uphill climb in the NL West, the right deal ought to be able to pry him loose. Still, the return there might smart more than Boston is willing to endure, given the high floor of their current group. The goal for Boston would be to raise the ceiling of their production from the catching spot, and while Kelly certainly qualifies in that regard, the value of the add could send Boston to track a different scent.
Another option could be MJ Melendez of the Royals. Salvador Perez is the past, present, and future of catching in Kansas City, and the Royals might figure to use Melendez’s trade value rather than let him grow into a part-time role.
Sean Murphy is the big fish on the trade market, and the A’s powerful catcher would indeed raise the ceiling in Boston while providing long-term stability. The Gold Glove catcher is under team control through 2025. Murphy, like everyone on Oakland’s roster, is available, but the question will come down to price point and valuation of the prospects in Boston’s system.
There are other options that the Red Sox could explore (Cotillo suggests the Padres as a trade partner, for example), but at the end of the day, it seems most likely they will enter 2022 as they ended 2021, with Vazquez and Plawecki sharing catching duties while Hernandez and Wong await their turn. Combined, Vazquez and Plawecki posted 1.2 rWAR/1.0 fWAR in 2021, and with both catchers entering their age-31 season, there’s not much upside to mine (though catchers do tend to develop late). Still, if Boston likes the way they handle the pitching staff, that might be enough to keep this group in place for next season. Chief Baseball Officer Chaim Bloom and GM Brian O’Halloran are going to continue to explore ways to raise the roof on the potential of their catching production, but an incremental rise in potential output probably doesn’t blow their hats off enough to push them from the incumbent duo.
Queue the Red Sox haters. Who call themselves ‘fans’.
Queue the bandwagon fans who rush to be among the first to post despite not having anything relevant to say.
As for the article, no Boston does NOT like the way Vazquez handles the pitching staff. If they did, they wouldn’t have nearly traded for Stallings.
As for Wong and Hernandez, how can they show what they’ve got and gain big league experience next year with Cora leaning on Vazquez as usual (most Innings Caught in MLB this year) and refusing to carry a third catcher? Unless there’s a trade, injury to Vazquez/Plawecki, or the Red Sox fall out of contention early, it will be impossible to promote either of the two prospects.
This is just another example of why MLB needs to implement a limit on the number of pitchers each team can have on their 26-man roster at any given time.
Cora’s preference of 14-man pitching staffs, leaving just 3 position players available on the bench at any given time, is absurd. And if the universal DH is implemented, NL teams will need to have an additional position player on their roster to compensate.
1) The reason to trade for Stallings had nothing to do with how Vazquez handles pitchers. You just want to confirm your assumption, without any proof. Vazquez OPS+ of 75 and the fact that his contract expires at the end of the year, has FAR FAR more to do with the trade possibility.
2) Wong and Hernandez platoon at Triple A, the better one, of the two, joins the big leagues next year. Carrying a 3rd catcher would be an absolute waste. Does any team carry 3 catchers, unless one’s banged up?
3) Implement a restriction on pitches on the roster? So the last 150 years of no rule like this is bad. Let teams run themselves.
4) “NL teams will need to have an additional position player on their roster to compensate.” Why? Why can’t NL teams decide to carry one less bench player? What do you care?
The Red Sox have the most World Series victories in this century, all achieved by these owners. I think they’re doing a great job running this team. You are no fan of the Red Sox. Youre a ‘Closet Yankee Fan’. You biitch and moan at every move the Red Sox make. I don’t see you reacting the same way in other teams threads. You can come out, society is much more accepting of your type these days.
denny – You still crack me up, as always thanks for the laughs!
1) Vazquez’s poor defensive stats, mental lapses, and the well-documented preferences of pitchers not wanting to throw to him are the reasons why the Sox wanted to upgrade. Is there some kind of rule that Bloom can’t extend or re-sign players on expiring contracts that he wants to keep? You a funny man!
2) How would Wong or Hernandez “joins the big leagues next year” if Cora refuses to carry 3 catchers? It’s a little bit early to be hitting the egg nog! LOL
3) I said limit the number of pitchers on a 26-man roster at any given time, not a “restriction on pitches”. It’s necessary because the number of pitching changes has gotten completely out of hand.
4) Why? Because if NL teams are required to have a DH, it’s one more non-pitcher position they will need to fill each game. I really needed to explain that to you? LOL
Red Sox owners have nothing to do with the subject.
My pleasure as always, come again!
Due to lack of knowledge, you just make stuff up:
1) “Vazquez’s poor defensive stats”
Baseball Ref: RTot +3, RDRs +5, RTot/Yr +3 — All much better than average
ESPN: DWAR +1.3 — 2nd Best in AL, Caught Stealing 53 — Lead MLB
StatCast: PitchFraming 0 — Completely Average
How do you get “POOR” out of that?
“Well documented . . .” Show me multiple “DOCUMENTS” I want to see them.
2) This year (2022) they stay in Triple A, as I said, and next year (2023) Vazquez moves on. How do you misunderstand the simplest statements?
3) It was a typo “pitches” shouldve been spelt “pitchers”. Why would you limit the number of “PITCHERS” on a roster? There has never been a limit of “pitchers” on a roster. Again your lack of comprehension baffles me.
4) Yes explain again, why NL teams “HAVE TO” add a position player. Why can’t they carry one less bench player? Is this more rules youre making up?
It was only ‘adding” a player for the DH that confused me.
DH’s are position players that either can’t play a position well (there are very few full-time DH’s in the AL), or position players that need some rest or are coming back from an injury.
If the DH comes to the NL this year, I believe more than half the teams would be using guys already on their roster.
Samuel – As it stands now, NL teams could theoretically have 18 pitchers and 8 non-pitchers on their 26-man roster for every game.
If the Universal DH is passed, they would need to have at least 9 non-pitchers which means they could have no more than 17 pitchers.
Now sure, you could also use a pitcher as a DH every game … but that’s not realistic, unless Ohtani is on your team.
Denny – You’re like the Washington Generals, keep on trying!
1) Yes, being defensively ranked 16th out of 24 catchers (min 700 Innings Caught) would qualify as poor. But hey, he’s still better than Gary Sanchez I’ll give him that!
fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=fld�…
2) OMG you think this year is 2022? Please don’t drive this evening Denny, I’m being serious here.
3) See Denny, this is just one example of what you miss by being a fairweather fan. It’s been written about quite often, including on this very website. See how foolish you look criticizing me for supporting something that was already agreed upon? Look below.
4) I already posted a detailed answer to this in a response to someone else.
MLB Planning To Reinstitute Pitcher Limit On Active Rosters In 2022
By Anthony Franco | May 30, 2021 at 11:07pm CDT
Major League Baseball will again limit teams to carrying thirteen pitchers on the active roster when the 2022 season begins, reports Bob Nightengale of USA Today. MLB instituted a 13-pitcher limit in February 2020, but the rule has been waived in each of the past two seasons as part of the MLB-MLBPA agreements on COVID-19 health and safety protocols. Interestingly, the 13-pitcher limit may just be the beginning. The league is open to capping the number of hurlers on an active roster at twelve or perhaps eleven further down the line, per Nightengale.
I thought they had a rule that you could only have 13 pitchers on normal days. Or did they not ever pass that rule?
Cosmo – It was supposed to take effect this year, but because of Covid they delayed it until next year. It’s in Tony’s article I pasted up above.
Vasquez had a poor 21. That said, he’s been above average defensively. Most running is done on the pitcher. I’m expecting a big year from CV who proved himself as a leader in the clubhouse last year. KP needs to learn to play other positions where he can become a valuable back up. His bat even with limited power is a nice bench option but he has to learn to be a corner outfielder or at least a competent first baseman. What I said about CV does not apply to KP. Everyone has run on him in his two seasons in Boston. That is how the team keeps three catchers. The 25th:and 26th men together have to back up more than just the catching position.
1) 1 stat. Thats all you got. I gave you 6 different stats. And whats that stat based on.
2) Did you pass english? Do you understand the difference between past tense and future tense? “Wong and Hernandez platoon at Triple A, the better one, of the two, joins the big leagues next year”. Thats moving forward, as in future tense. If I said ‘last season’ would you seriously being assuming I’m talking about 2020 not 2021. Your arrogance is baffling.
3) Something that was NEVER used, just as I said? Youre kidding right.
4) Don’t care what you said to someone else. Teams dont “have to” add a extra player, even ‘Samuel’ agrees with me. No one agrees with you.
How many times do others have to jump in and tell you youre wrong. Like last week when you thought Ivan ‘Pudge’ Rodriguez was fat, and 2 texas fans jumped all over you. The guy is built like a rock, but your simple mind says his nickname is ‘Pudge’ and I have no clue what he looks like, therefore he must be fat. LMAO.
dennyd – Reading your debate with FPG reminds me of the movie Monty Python and the Holy Grail and you are the black knight!! “Tis but a scratch!!” Then as he’s on the ground with no legs or arms he laughs and say “Ok, we’ll call it a draw!!!” LMAO
You should have quit when you first fell behind after FPG’s first comment!! hahaha Good thing the front office is paying you to support their lame ideas and behavior!
Fever Pitch: When I point out people that no one supports you in our debate. You break out your 2nd account ‘KD17’. — Way too obvious.
.
denny – Don’t try to drag me into your foolish conspiracy theory nonsense, I’m here to talk baseball. And if you weren’t such a fairweather fan, you’d know that KD and I don’t always agree but we still respect each other.
I don’t mind that you’re constantly wrong, but it does get annoying that you don’t have the character or integrity to admit when you are … especially after all the time I’ve spent proving you wrong.
denny – 1) That’s not all I got, but that’s all I need. Fangraphs is a highly reputable website here. The stats I provided are based on defense only, which is exactly what the subject has been about. It doesn’t take into account offense.
2) You clearly stated that this year is 2022 and next year is 2023. Nobody in their right mind would today refer to 2023 as next year. It’s okay to drunkpost, I know other people do as well, but when you do please don’t drive that’s all I ask. And I’m fluent in multiple languages including Canadian, now don’t be a hoser eh.
3) The fact that something has never been used or done is completely irrelevant. Unlike you, the world and everything in it evolves. Up until a few years ago they never used 14-man pitching staffs, 7-inning doubleheader games, time limits on pitcher warmups and no-pitch intentional walks. Point is, you were WRONG AGAIN when you insisted my support of pitcher limits would never happen and shouldn’t happen. As usual you provided absolutely nothing to support your disagreement.
4) Don’t try to defend yourself by dragging Samuel into this. He acknowledged he didn’t understand what I meant, so I happily explained in greater detail.
You’re attempting to speak for everyone by saying “no one agrees with me”, and yet you call me arrogant? That’s priceless.
There you go again, telling lies about me that you can’t possibly support because they are 100% lies. You know very well I said he got the Pudge nickname from being overweight at an early age, and I even pasted a direct quote from him to prove it, and yet you still knowingly continue the lie. You’d be great working for the media like CNN or MSNBC.
Thanks KD, that’s an excellent analogy! Denny reminds me of the tiny annoying puppy that keeps tugging at my pant leg like in “Just Married”. Or the tiny cartoon character that keeps swinging away, but his much bigger target simply sticks his arm out to prevent any punches from landing while he focuses on eating a sandwich. Or Yosemite Sam always trying to attack Bugs Bunny, and Bugs pays him no mind. LOL!
So how long do you think it will be before this lockout is over? I’m guessing early May.
Thanks, Fever Pitch
For the three clowns who gave dennyd a thumbs up for his ridiculous comment about FPG having a second account –
Have you guys ever compared how much the Red Sox are paying each of you guys to support their lame actions? Since dennyd says the most and the dumbest things I’m guessing he might be the boss in this paid for social media blitz that attempts to downplay the animosity fans have for the many bad decisions made since DD was fired. Guess what? It’s not working!! hahaha
As FPG pointed out, we have very distinct differences in some opinions and others we are nearly identical. Pick the topic. My pet peeves are Ownership’s racism, Bloom’s poor performance and Cora’s integrity.
I’m pretty sure those three aren’t FPG’s top three pet peeves but I bet we agree on #4 – paid media influencers chiming in on all our comments in hopes of fooling the public into thinking there are actually fans that support the chaos that is the Red Sox today. .
KD – Great post as always! Denny’s ridiculous accusation is just him grasping for straws, taking the low road as usual.
Yeah I’m definitely more of a middle-of-the-road guy on subjects like Bloom, I’ll give him credit when he deserves it and criticism when he deserves it.
My biggest pet peeve without a doubt is Cora’s managing. He simply makes a lot of bad decisions and torpedoed the 2019 season which I’ll never forgive him for.
Second biggest pet peeve is all the I’m-smarter-than-the-world bargain basement signings as if Boston is a low revenue team like the Pirates or Orioles. That I blame Henry for, he had every right to be ticked off about the colossal failure of 2019 that was 100% Cora’s fault but going cheap for 2-3 straight years now is unacceptable for a team that generates so much revenue and has the highest ticket prices in MLB.
Third pet peeve are so-called “fans” who attack everyone that dare to question some of the the decisions and performances of those in the Red Sox organization.
I don’t always agree with everyone, but I will fight to defend everyone’s right to free speech as long as they don’t lie or attack others.
FPG – I think I qualify as a middle of the road guy on Bloom like you but somehow you’ve seen things that deserve credit and I haven’t!!! I guess I am a tougher grader after DD was here. My expectations are much higher than most. It’s kinda like right field. No matter who they put out there, they won’t ever measure up to Mookie so pointing out their shortcomings is easy just like with Bloom.
KD17
FPG – If you put Stalling, Plawecki and Vazquez and their careers or their last 3 years of stats in a hat you would basically be pulling out the same guy
=======================================
I agree with KD on this one. I think Stallings is better, with no doubt in my mind, but not so much better that I’d want to pay to upgrade. One of my principles is that, if you merely ‘want’ something, don’t get into a bidding war with someone that ‘needs’ something. You cannot win without overpaying.
Joe – Wait, what? Am I seeing this right? You agree with KD? Geez, you really do dig in deep when you take a position!
Okay I have a 4-day weekend so I’ll bite.
Stallings’ entire career is comprised of only three full seasons (he started only 15 games combined from 2016-2018)..
Offense – .701 OPS
Defense – GG winner, runnerup last year, excellent gamecalling
Contractual Status – $1.3M this year, under team control for 3 more years
Vazquez – .666 OPS (omen?)
Defense – Never won GG, not in the running past two seasons, awful gamecalling
Contractual Status – $7M next year, free agent after the season
Now as you know, I’m a huge believe in advanced metrics.
rCERA (min 600 IC) – Stallings #2 (tied) and Vazquez #13
DRS – STallings #1 and Vazquez #11
rGFP (min 10 IC) – Stallings #1 in MLB and Vazquez #112!!!
That is NOT a typo!!!
Stallings = BEST in MLB
Vazquez = 112th
fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=c&stats=fld�…
There is a reason Bloom is trying to get rid of Vazquez, In Bloom I Trust.
Joe, I just read your post about a bidding contest between one team that wants someone and another that needs one. Very simple but sid logic that should be remembered most times. It’s not so clear sometimes but that philosophy would be shrewd to follow.
Backup C Yermin Mercedes would hit quite a few bombs at Fenway.
Only problem is he’s a bit of a defensive liability. I’d rather we traded for him to compete at DH after JDM is gone. Great hitter for sure.
Trade JD Martinez for Luis Campusano and Mackensie Gore
Two top 30 prospects for a DH? Chill
Edit: On second thought. This sounds like a Preller move
Got any former rangers?
Terrible trade for the Padres there
Toronto has a nice catching prospect named Moreno. I wouldn’t give them Nick straight up obviously, but something like Pivetta for Morena and Gurriel, or Morena and Pearson should get it done.
Nick Pivetta for Morena and Pearson? That’s career ERA 5.16 Nick Pivetta.
Wow, let’s see who tops this one
He’s Canadian. 🙂 They love that, plus he may not have a no-trade to Canada.
Trust me Pivetta has never been in a position to dare ask for a no trade clause anywhere.
No I think he’s talking about 4.36 ERA with the Red Sox and dominant in the postseason Nick Pivetta.
I’m not saying the trade proposal makes sense, but you’re thinking of the wrong Nick Pivetta.
He still wouldn’t get you any of the players mentioned.
Pivetta has been and still is a high upside 4 starter. You don’t get a Chris Sale package for a 4 starter.
I think right now Pivetta is a #3 starter on many teams, certainly ATM with the Red Sox. You wouldn’t rate Hill or Wacha over him now would you?
But like I said, I agree the trade proposal was not reasonable.
“Chris Sale package”.
Pivetta is still a work in progress. Was the playoffs an illusion that Sox fans won’t often see or the start of what Phillies fans had hoped to see? 22 comes with expectations and high hopes but he has to still prove he belongs in a championship rotation.
dewey – I completely agree. Pivetta will be 29 next season, he’s running out of time to prove he can be consistently good.
Most everyone was really hoping Vazquez would be replaced, because just like Eovaldi we have seen how much better Pivetta performs with Plawecki behind the plate. The difference in catchers is staggering.
Pivetta with Plawecki: 2.98 ERA and .639 OPS
Pivetta with Vazquez: 5.23 ERA and .771 OPS
Yet another reason why Bloom is desperately trying to replace Vazquez.
When you say nice you mean one of the best prospects in baseball who should be in the majors sometime this year who is a stud on both sides of the ball and apparently play a decent third base also. If you even think Pivetta gets you Gurriel you must not know any players not on the Red Sox.
Toronto does have some nice catching probably available in a trade.
Best Screen the Red Sox probably don’t have enough in trade to get Moreno. Pivetta isnt even in the realm of getting it done. Perhaps something could be worked for Alejandro Kirk but once again I Doubt that Pivetta would be enough for even him but that’s a more realistic trade straight up.
I could have substituted Jeter Downs for Pivetta, and suggested Downs for Morena and Gurriel Lite, but I thought Toronto just missed out last year and would want a rotation piece instead. Hard to see anyone above Jeter on the prospect list getting moved at all let alone for the lesser Gurriel and an international signing prospect.
I’m not saying that Toronto might be interested in Pivetta but the point I’m making is Pivetta and Downs together don’t get Moreno. Moreno is an elite prospect and he’s a good defensive catcher that can really hit do you realize how valuable that is. He isn’t going anywhere he will be Torontos catcher of the future that’s why I brought up Kirk as a more realistic trade target. There are three really elite prospect catchers one is Adley Rutschman, Francisco Alvarez, and Moreno in that order none of those guys are going to be traded short of an absolute haul. Pivetta wouldn’t even be the front of the trade think Casas plus and you have an idea what it will take to get Moreno.
Could trade JD to The Guardians for Hedges/Arias/Clase.
Guardians ain’t paying JD’s salary.
LOL
Only an arrogant, low baseball IQ, large market fan would be so off base as to propose a trade like that.
Guardians don’t need another DH
I am not a Guardian fan but I would never do that trade. That would be an unbelievably stupid move for the Guarians’
If the Red Sox want Campusano, all they have to do is take on Hosmer’s contract. Done. No MacKenzie Gore, no JD Martinez.
I agree, Javia. The Padres seem like their hands are kinda tied on doing anything significant until they dump the Hosmer contract. Wil Myers’ too, but not as much as Hosmer’s. So ya, I think someone could get Campusano relatively cheap if they took Hosmer, too. Meaning, the Padres wouldn’t expect a lot in return. They’d be happy with the financial relief.
@ dsett75;
The Hosmer contract is interesting in this respect……
There are a lot of posters here that believe their (and other) teams to enter into long-term contacts for big bucks with todays hot free agents. They dismiss what will happen down the road, just looking at 2022 and maybe a year or two after that. Yet they ignore the position the Yankees were in the last few years and the Padres are in today (among others).
You bring up a very good point.
@redsox for_life
The Red Sox may as well offer Hudson freakin Potts to the Orioles for Adley Rutschman and Grayson Rodriguez.
Why would the Padres trade the Sox their future starting catcher and ace starter for another 1-year, $20 million, Wil Myers type contract that they cannot afford?
If the padres are in playoff mid-season and Boston are well back….
Melendez’s role wont be part-time. With Salvy’s defense dropping off pretty rapidly, I expect MJ to be the everyday catcher by 2023 with Perez rotating between 1B, DH and the occasional day behind the plate.
I doubt the Red Sox make a move to upgrade at the position when Vazquez and Plawecki are a capable combo. Wong could fill an Austin Barnes type role and Ronaldo Hernandez has the potential to be the future at the position.
Yeah, I thought it was a bit strange to refer to Perez as the “future” of catching in KC.
Is Blake Swihart available? Vazquez is a pleasure to watch behind the plate.
He’s too busy modeling his HOF bust.
Bob – You mean the one he was awarded by the brilliant farm system list makers who had him higher than Mookie!!!! hahaha
Why would they do anything? They have two catchers. That is, baseball players who can catch. Some teams don’t even have that. Maybe they can upgrade at batboy. That would make the same amount of sense.
In 2018, Red Sox catchers had an OPS of .525, about 60% below average. They wiped out the entire major leagues and it wasn’t even close. 108 wins and steamrolled through the postseason. You need baseball players who can CATCH.
There have been NUMEROUS World Champion teams with below average production out of the catching position. It happens over and over again and yet the fantasy fools want to upgrade the position offensively.
That’s not how baseball works.
As you were.
There was a time in which you could expect to upgrade over that tandem but, yea, in this day and age it’s perfectly adequate.
The thought has crossed the minds of Red Sox FO to upgrade at C many times, but when they ponder NYY’s situation with Gary Sanchez, they gotta think, “Yeah, we’re good with what we’ve got.”
How look at C position in Boston and in general the last dozen years, especially so since ‘Tek’s bat went south before he retired.
1st there was all bat and no glove Salty.. A guy Sanchez wishes he could call a game like and Salty wasn’t really good at that either IMO, but he wasn’t lackadaisical at blocking balls in the dirt, like Sanchez.
Then there was all glove and no bat Leon, C-Vaz, Plawecki.. All are/were good and solid with the glove, even if the bat wasn’t always there.
Catcher and the 2 middle IF positions always thought was where need glove guys over anything else. Bat is extra. Having someone who forgets what is going on, refuses to block balls in the dirt at C isn’t helping anything.
silver – You forgot a couple solid catchers, AJ Pierzynski and Victor Martinez, along with future HOF’er Swihart.
I loved Victor, he was such a clutch hitter.
FPG – You know things are bad when the big debate is about whether two mediocre catchers can be upgraded to a slightly better catcher who had a good 2021 and is likely to regress.
Vazquez had an off year hitting but has been a pleasant surprise since he beat out Leon for the job. Two bad years in a row, then you talk trades. One bad year after all he’s done for Boston is disrespectful and an indication of how bored we all are with the future of the Red Sox after Bloom squandered the $73M that has dropped off the payroll since he arrived. Lots of mediocrity was purchased with that money and not one all-star worthy player.
Without a shake-up at the top in ownership, at GM or at manager the future is very predictable. More of the same until the fans storm the castle.
Remember everyone has a different perspective based on age. To the fans born in the 1990s Boston has had a wealth of success and dealing with a few bad years to reposition themselves as perennial threats is acceptable. That group of fan is most easily duped by Bloom since they’ve led the good life.
To the fans born in the 1970s they spent 30 years frustrated then had 15 years of excellence. They are a bit less tolerant of the smoke and mirrors that Bloom uses but keep hoping for a turn around to the way it was with DD at the helm.
To the fans born in the 1950s and earlier this is pure torture. We have lived with the empty promises for 50 years and rejoiced when Yankee type money was spent to unseat the Bronx Bombers. The ebb and flow of winning then having a bad season then rising from the ashes to win again was invigorating to those fans after a lifetime of finishing second or lower. Now after 15 years of success we have returned to the ancient philosophy of making money for the owners and pretending to be competitive with a laundry list of excuses when things don’t end a season with a ring.
I preferred the years where injuries and off years kept us from winning a ring not a lack of talent like we are experiencing now. At least with DD in Boston you never knew if a great Christmas gift might happen for fans. This year, under Bloom and the greedy owners Santa will be skipping over the field with the Big Green Monster!
KD – Good post! So you think Stallings will regress? I don’t know, his offense couldn’t be any more consistent over the past three years and he’s Top 5 defensively during that same time period. Most importantly, he is excellent at handling the pitching staff.
.708 OPS in 2019
.702 OPS in 2020
.704 OPS in 2021
You don’t win a GG on a 101-loss team unless you really, really stand out above everyone else.
FPG – If you put Stalling, Plawecki and Vazquez and their careers or their last 3 years of stats in a hat you would basically be pulling out the same guy if they get the same amount of playing time. Comparable league average type players.
OPS+ (last three years)
Stallings – 92, 91, 87
Vazquez – 75, 111, 103
Plawecki – 96 128 64
NONE of them WOW me.
Defensively Stallings has the edge in some stats and did get a gold glove but I am struggling to see how he won it based on his numbers.
Errors and total chances = fielding percentage
Stallings – 5/922 – .995
Vazquez – 7/1201 – .994
Plawecki – 2/396 – .995
The only thing that stands out to give Stalling a gold glove in 2021 is PBs.
Stallings had 0 PB and his CS% was 21. Previous %s 33, 40, 22 and 17
Vazquez had 10 PBs and his CS% was 25. Previous %s 30, 38, 37 and 42
Plawecki had 3 PB and his CS% was 23. Previous %s 26, 27, 28 and 27
Since both current Red Sox catchers are a year younger than Stallings he is slightly closer to the end of his prime.
So would I give up a prospect to get a guy who isn’t really any better than what we have? No, I wouldn’t.
As far as the lockout goes, I’m not as optimistic as you are. The owners are holding all the cards if the latest COVID threat becomes bigger. With no games played due to a lockout not COVID their revenues are the same but their expenses are far less. On the other hand, the players will receive less pay with a lockout than with COVID. So, don’t be surprised if we see another 60 game season, if they play at all.
Maybe the players will give in sooner than July but it doesn’t seem likely. And it’s even less likely that the hapless commissioner will fix this. Also, both sides are led by people that don’t care about the sport and how their actions affect fans, they are all about the money as we have seen so vividly in Boston since 2019.
I hope I”m wrong but 2022 should be every bit as screwed up as 2020.
There’s nothing wrong with improving the catcher position overall. It’s not an automatic tradeoff of offense vs. defense.
Zee – The reason the Sox are looking to upgrade their starting catcher isn’t offense.
I disagree fever, I think offense is another (not sole) reason they explored catching upgrades.
A team can absorb/hide a weak hitter or two and be competitive. But look at the lineup. 6-9, or almost half the order, is an issue.
You’ve got catcher stinking up the back end.
But now you’ve got JBJ to worry about. If Boston could’ve ‘fixed’ him they would’ve done it years ago.
JBJ turns Verdugo from your little-pop but some avg cf into a dedicated corner of guy, positions you really need more than 10-15hr a year out of.
Kiki/Bronson whoever fills 2B isn’t great. Kiki was fairly weak and ho hum most of 2021 outside getting hot for a bit there. The odd man out helps the amazing refsnyder round out the of.
So, we’ve got C, CF, 2B, RF all weak, and an underperformer LF who doesn’t mash as expected. You look to upgrade any of that you can if it makes sense.
Bronson? LOL … I know you’re talking about Christian Arroyo ;O)
Let’s wait out the offseason before judging the offense. As someone already pointed out, the Sox won 108 games and the WS in 2018 with putrid offensive contributions from their catchers. More than any other position, a catcher’s defensive capabilities is extremely valuable. I think JBJ will rebound and hopefully they will land Schwarber, Suzuki or some other great offensive player.
Time will tell.
Well, they *could* bring in Bronson Arroyo to play 2B…
He may be better than Christian. But yes, I had a brain fart and everything I see Christian I think of bronson, right down to his attempted music career LOL. Every time I see his name on the lineup, or on a jersey. Just can’t help it.
GASoxFan – I have a soft spot for Bronson Arroyo too. Dude was an awesome guy, very chill which you’d expect from a Key West native. I felt so bad how he accepted a team friendly contract because he loved Boston so much, only to get traded away. But he was a trusting guy, and he paid the price for it.
And ARod slapping the ball out of his glove is something no Sox fan will ever forget.
I’ll be seeing Bronson at Innings Festival in March. He’s a good performer, saw him at a casino years ago.
Kiki was fairly weak
=========================
Kiki was #38 in fWAR with 3.9, tied with Betts.
I agree. There’s not very many Catching upgrades that won’t cost an arm and a leg. Besides, I’d be satisfied with Vazquez unless I could get Realmuto, Contreras or Perez.
Severino is a back up catcher as well. Navarez will again be the main catcher for the brewers
Catching across MLB really is mediocre to worse outside of a few exceptions.
Baltimore will trade Adley R. to the Sox for 5 players currently in the DSL….gotta plan for 2027 after all.
Golly gee whiz. I hope Adley is half as good as the legend Matt Wieters.
Wieters was pretty good til he got injured.
They should call the Cubs and see what they want for Wilson and I am sure the Cubs will move him…
Price will be high. Cubs don’t look like they’re giving up on things and resigning themselves to losing like other teams do.
The issue is by signing Gomes it felt like an announcement that Wilson was on the market so they have less leverage
Hernandez is Boston’s catcher of the future. I’m still shocked that Boston was able to pry him lose from Tampa for two below average pitchers in Springs & Mazza. He had a great season in the minors last year and he has an absolute cannon for an arm. Unless they can get Contreras, I don’t see any need for Boston to upset their current catching depth. Vasquez is due for a rebound and Plawecki is an excellent backup catcher who hits for average and has a knack for important hits.
True, when I saw Hernandez play, all I could think was this guy looked like Salvador Perez. Has similar offensive profile too. Raw pop, good barrel skills, but not a lot of walks. I’ve heard he may not be a great framer, but if he is an above average hitter who can keep the baserunners in check, he will be an everyday regular for sure.
There’s a couple ways to look at it. First, maybe it takes a former Rays executive to be able to one-up the Rays in a deal. Or, on the flip side, the Rays for all their success have never been able to develop catching, and Hernandez is just the latest one.
If Vasquez shows up in shape, he’s a very good backstop. Last year, he looked like he hit the potato chips hard on movie night in the off season. In 2019, he showed up in excellent shape and looked great from the git-go. Lean and mean.
Bobby – You are definitely in the minority with your opinion. The stats and facts don’t lie, Vazquez is a below average defensive catcher. He’s got a good arm, that’s about it.
You say his weight is the reason why he under-performed this year. He was in great shape in 2018, yet the Sox went with the hitless wonder Sandy Leon because his defense was so much better than Christian’s.
I agree with Bobby. Vazquez is a completely different catcher when he shows up in shape. He’s unlikely to ever be in shape, but he looks like a good catcher at 10-15 pounds overweight, and someone that lumbers at 25-30 pounds overweight.
His career is basically on the line this season. A good season could still land him a 2-year+ contract. Another weak season will make him a journeyman.
Joe – I think Christian could rebound offensively, but no matter what his weight he will still be a poor game caller. As I’ve said before, Cora overusing him last season probably contributed to the mental lapses and defensive miscues. So playing him less next year should help.
Offense from a Catcher means nothing. Anything a team gets is a bonus.
Defense is important primarily in blocking balls as Pitchers have been throwing hard breaking balls more and more the last 20 years, and many of those go into the dirt with runners on base.
Pitch framing is so minor that it’s comical how people get wrapped up in it. An umpire has a large strike zone one game, and Catchers from both sides score points simply by playing that night.
It’s all about handling Pitchers and calling a game. There is no statistic for that. The Pitching Coach(es) has things he/they want each Pitcher to do, as does the Manager and FO. The Catcher has to align to that. No Catcher is coming on board and unilaterally calling a game on his own. He can have input and that may change things, but pre-game meetings with coaches, the manager and FO people will determine how they’ll try to work the opposition that day – not just for the starrer, but for relief pitchers that stand a good chance of coming into the game that day. The Catcher has to execute the game plan.
Offense definitely means something. You’d rather have Buster Posey than Jacob Stallings. I will meet you halfway and say defense is a requisite though.
Pitch framing is not that minor. For every night there is an ump with a wide zone, there is an ump with a narrow one. The advanced framing metrics (I know teams have access to them) will actually show how many strikes a guy steals based on the umpire so you can isolate that variable. It’s really cool stuff actually.
I’ve seen where people will look at the ERA of the pitchers when a certain catcher is in the game and weigh that against other catchers with the same staff. Like the year Mike Nappoli and Jeff Mathis caught for the Angels. There was a 2.00 ERA difference between the catchers.
Offense means nothing? That’s about the dumbest thing I’ve read on here and that’s saying a lot.
Yes, Catcher’s ERA is real and it’s spectacular.
FPG-Just for fun, we could make a friendly wager on whether or not Vazquez is in the top-15 in Fangraphs WAR for catcher. Nothing serious, but for the month of December, 2022, every post has to contain the phrase ‘JB is smart’ or ‘FPG is smart’.
You’re unlikely to win, but you’re welcome to try.
Joe – I sincerely like your proposal, and would be 100% supportive of that type of wager if we had sigs here. But remembering to type that at the end of every post would be difficult, don’t you agree?
Also as I’ve said before, if he’s not overworked again I think he could rebound offensively. It’s his defense, especially his handling of the pitching staff, that is below average.
We could do a friendly wager on the same defense-only stats that I linked from Fangraphs? The loser could temporarily change their screen name to what you suggested, if it’s possible to change screen names here?
I agree, Vasquez was over weight last year and it cost him. Maybe a come to Jesus talk is in order, the other noticeable issue, was how often Plawecki was run on.
For a sec I thought you meant Enrique. I could see him being a starting catcher
Red Sox shouldn’t make a move. I like Hernandez, and want to see him get his shot at the position. Vazquez could be a trade target midseason for other teams, and the Sox could ride Pawlecki, Wong, and Hernandez through the end of the year. And then they can sign a veteran to pair with Hernandez going into the following year (this all is with the hope that Hernandez does not regress with a full year in Worcester).
I don’t know much about the Royal’s prospect mentioned in this article, but he had an incredible season in the minors last year with 41 HRs and is only 23 years old. I see no reason for KC to give him up; Salvy can DH twice a week while Melendez gets some MLB time, but if KC is steadfast on moving him and he’s a decent defensive catcher, he would be a good target to match up with Hernandez moving forward for sure.
Dayton Moore has had the organization bringing Melendez along for years.
Two years ago Dayton made the comment that there were less quality Catchers in MLB than quality QB’s in the NFL.
Dayton is not giving up one of his Catchers. They tend to get hurt for periods as they get beat up by foul balls. Catcher is the most important player on the roster – and every Manager knows it (and it has nothing at all to do with his offense).
As these things go, the Red Sox current catchers — Vazquez and Plawecki — are decent, but they should be prepared to move on from Vazquez after this year. His surprising offensive peak in 2019 was driven by the rocket ball, and he’s now on the north side of 30. That said, they don’t want to place themselves in a situation like the Mets, giving $40M to a backup catcher who produced zero WAR in 2021.
Pirates need catching. I wonder why they went with the Marlins trade instead. Unless Boston wasn’t valuing Stallings enough and/or wouldn’t trade away a catcher. Pirates have Henry, but he’s at least 3 years away pending injuries and development. Pittsburgh has a huge hole at the catching position that they may convert Mitch Keller (when not starting) to catcher. They are in a bad spot
thats why they signed roberto perez
Perez and there is no one else between him and Henry. There is not even a back up catcher. Pirates are in a bad spot since they released or traded 4 catchers after the season ended. I think Cherington has been brilliant but question his motives on those dealings or departures. They need more than Perez
Fan1981 – Have you heard what the Red Sox offered for Stallings? I haven’t, but I’m guessing the Pirates didn’t want to take on Vazquez’s large salary and then let him walk after the season.
FPG I haven’t heard what was in the deal. You’d think the Pirates would get a major league or near MLB catcher for a few years. Up until Henry is ready at least. Pirates have so much riding on Henry and no other options.
BTW – I’m looking forward to attending the Sox series in Pittsburgh next summer, it’s one of my favorite parks. I was totally bummed that their 4th of July weekend series scheduled for last year was cancelled because of Covid.
FPG- I haven’t been to the park since Chad Kuhl started his first game. After that, I was quite disappointed in the organization itself. Watching that game and looking at the players on the field that day, made me hang up the jersey and put away my Pirates merchandise. I canceled my season tickets the following year. Kuhl pitched one heck of a game that day. I just saw a dim future during that game. It was just weeks prior the Archer trade just happened. I wasn’t there to see him by any means. My daughter wanted to go to a baseball game and I wanted her to experience that beautiful stadium. She still carries that Pirates gold baseball she wanted at the souvenir shop in her room. She talks to me about when we can go to another game. I just don’t have the heart to tell her it will be awhile because daddy has seen enough losing for his lifetime (literally). 40 years old next week and spent three quarters of it hoping to see the Pirates win and make it to the playoffs. Those 3 years were great to see. It’ll be several years before I set foot back in that stadium again. I supported them during their losing streak. Just can’t bare to watch that horrible experience again
PiratesFan – I totally understand. It’s a shame they haven’t been competitive in so long, because it really is a great baseball town. They’ve always been my favorite NL team, going back to the late ’70’s. As a kid I absolutely loved that World Series comeback in 1979. I’m a Steelers fan as well, although baseball is by far my favorite sport.
Losing wasn’t too bad back in the day when prices for everything were reasonable. But now, who wants to pay hundreds of dollars a game to watch their team lose? Last couple times I went to PNC I was able to sit like 4 rows behind the dugout for around $28 a ticket. Now those same seats are going for three times that amount for the Boston series. I can’t stand dynamic pricing.
Hopefully the Pirates will have a revival soon, I know the depressed economy in that area doesn’t help.
Fever Pitch Guy14 mins ago
Fan1981 – Have you heard what the Red Sox offered for Stallings?
===================================
Exactly. Without knowing what the RS offered, there is no way to tell how interested they were. I’d be will to bet that everyone has an interest in at least the top-50% of all players. But it’s like everything else for sale. The amount of interest you have is directly correlated to what you put on the table.
Joe – This wasn’t more of the usual kicking the tires BS like Bloom has done with many high priced free agents. As reported, the Red Sox thought they had a deal for Stallings but then the Marlins swooped in and snagged him.
Everyone has an interest in at least the top-50% of all players? You’re saying every team has an interest in at least 377 players?
I’m doing the Homer Simpson backward fade into the bushes right now.
What a horrendous attempt at writing!
The Royals are not trading MJ Melendez.
Seems like a totally random article. Why did they decide to focus on the catching situation in Boston as opposed to any other catching situation from any other random team? I mean, it’s the most boring topic to discuss regarding current big league rosters anywhere because of the total lack of interesting catchers in this day and age. Man I cannot think of a more mind numbing topic to cover really. This article takes the cake for really straining for something, anything to discuss during Lockout. (Yet I still read every word because I have no life.)
ofab – This is probably the 4th or 5th article about Red Sox catching since September, because it’s an area of concern for the Red Sox. I think the writers are just trying to keep the content coming, can’t fault them for that.
This week there were 2 articles on the Marlins (infield and outfield), and I thought it was great. Wish they had more articles analyzing positions like this. Do you really want to see more articles telling you about Joe Noname signing a minor league contract somewhere?
If you don’t like the subject, you don’t have to read it, and you certainly don’t have to comment on it.
With 5 catching options, the BoSox still were in on Jacob Stallings. I think that’s what drives the discussion.
If I were the Sox braintrust, I would go after the Cardinals Andrew Knizner. He was a strong catching prospect, but Molina eats up all the PT and will be back next year. The Cards were rumored to be considering dealing because they have another catching prospect right behind him. Knizner has years of control left, a bit of a lack of luster due to a not great season last year with very irregular at bats, and would be nice snipe for the Sox.
The Sox aren’t trading either Vazquez or Plawecki. They could have let both go and chose to keep them. If a change is coming behind the plate it will be in 2023
Rsox – The deadline for picking up Vazquez’s option was November 7th. If they had declined, they would have lost all leverage with the few available free agent catchers and teams that were willing to consider trading a catcher.
This way, they aren’t forced to overspend acquiring a new catcher. If they don’t find a suitable deal, not an issue as they’ve still got a starting catcher already. And if they do make a trade for a catcher, they can either include Vazquez or trade him separately for MLB players or prospects.
They aren’t moving Vazquez this season. Maybe, just maybe they make a play for Contreras next winter but free agency or the trade market offer zero upgrades over what they already have
Rsox – That’s what others here said months ago.
And yet Stallings was traded.
Sean Murphy is being shopped.
Willson Contreras is being shopped.
And Carson Kelly is being shopped.
I could provide more, but no need.
Contreras is a rental and could be had in free agency next winter. Kelly has 4 years of team control, Murphy 5 years of team control, both with come at higher price tags than the Red Sox have to move. Stallings is a Marlin, whatever Bloom offered/Cheringtin asked for is between them, if they actually spoke at all.
Bottom line is i expect Vazquez and Plawecki at Fenway Park on opening day unless someone makes a truly unbelievable offer to change that
They are unlikely to move either guy. Over the past three years:
FG ranks him #8 overall.
FG ranks him #3 in overall defense. #11 for DRS
The Fielding Bible has ranked him #16, #4, & #8 over the past three years.
He’s a solid/good catcher.
Joe – You keep pretending the Sox want to keep Vazquez, despite the fact they made an offer for Stallings that was so strong they thought they had a deal.
If somebody throws a snowball directly at you, and you duck away from getting hit, would you actually believe they had no intention of hitting you with the snowball? And more importantly, would you just stand there believing they wouldn’t try again to hit you with another snowball? Seriously?
nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/mlb-rumors-why-red-so…
The Red Sox “also made an offer for Stallings and at one point thought they had a deal,” the Miami Herald’s Barry Jackson and Craig Mish wrote in their notes column Thursday. “But the Marlins landed him by including pitching prospect Kyle Nicolas in their bid, along with pitcher Zach Thompson and outfield prospect Connor Scott.”
It sounds like Boston had serious interest in adding a catcher, and the 31-year-old Stallings would have provided Gold Glove defense along with serviceable offense (.246 batting average with eight home runs and 53 RBIs in 2021).
The issue is that I believe -0- of what writers write. Who told Barry Jackson? I doubt Bloom even talks with his family about these things. And Jeter, NY, perfected the art of talking for 20 minutes without saying a thing.
Joe – I understand not trusting some baseball writers, but for me motive holds a lot of weight.
Who told the Miami writers? Probably someone within the Marlins organization, since they are the ones who stole Stallings away from the Red Sox and would therefore have knowledge of other suitors.
Why would they make it up though? This isn’t a situation where it’s a Boston Globe writer following orders from The Globe’s owner. There is absolutely nothing to gain for the Miami writers to have made this up.
As for the Red Sox, Bloom did say he wants to focus on improving the defense … did he not?
When you are forced to use your backup catcher in big games because your star pitchers don’t have comfort or success with the starting catcher, that’s a big red flag is it not?
And no team will acknowledge trying to trade a player while that player is still on the team, for obvious reasons.
As I always say, time will tell. Let’s see if another catcher is acquired prior to the start of the regular season. If not, I doubt anything will happen midseason as it’s not common to bring in another catcher after the season begins.
I doubt anything will happen midseason as it’s not common to bring in another catcher after the season begins.
=========================================
Like I said before, I’d be surprised if they made a move. There just isn’t any reason to, unless someone fell in their laps. I’ve always found it a waste of resources to try to upgrade from a position that is currently ‘okay’.
Joe – Like I always say, In Bloom I Trust.
I like the JBJ trade.
I like the Paxton signing.
I think his interest in Suzuki is sincere.
And if he can bring in a GG-caliber catcher who works well with the pitching staff, I’m all for it. Especially if they are under team control for a few years and will save us millions in payroll.
All three moves requires a little bit of an act of faith. I can easily see JBJ reverting back to his 2020 stats, but certainly nothing guaranteed.
But now that he’s made his move, we really need someone like Suzuki. Even a mediocre hitting season by JBJ is more than acceptable, but only if he plays a GG CF. Playing him in RF lessens his defensive contribution, and will we will see the offensive drop-off more accutely.
Wong is a former third-round pick, why is everyone so quick to label him a bust?
He looked a bit overmatched in the 14 appearances he got last year, but his strikeout rate of -25% isn’t too egregious
MAhram – If he looks like a bust, smells like a bust and plays like a bust, what would you want us to call him? He was 5th on the Dodger depth chart when the brilliant Bloom coupled him with the grossly over-rated Downs rather than taking a guy who throws 100. Wong’s upside is a journeyman back-up catcher and his downside is a professional minor league player.
If you care about strike out rates with catchers then you need to go research what skills are needed at each position. NOBODY should care about Ks unless they are lowering the batting average. Otherwise, they are irrelevant. Stay off Statcast, it’s a baseball version of bad analytics provided to people foolish enough to dabble in the stock market as individuals. Unless you are willing to read EVERYTHING about what goes into a Statcast number then dissect the relevance of each individual average used, constant used and variable used you might as well treat Statcast as a religion that one follows on faith not facts.
MAhram19 hours ago
Wong is a former third-round pick, why is everyone so quick to label him a bust?
He looked a bit overmatched in the 14 appearances he got last year
====================================
It’s more than the 14 appearances last year. Wong had ~ a 4.5 K/W in A+ & AA in 2019, and > 6/1 in AAA in 2021. He has power, and nominally carries a 2B & 3B glove. So it is possible he could develop into a #26 type player. I could see a need evolving for a #3 catcher/#2 UIF type player in the future.
I wouldn’t write him off, but I’d be very happy if he developed into a #2 catcher.
Vazquez wont be our starting catcher after this season, he hit 4 home runs last year TOTAL, he cant hit at all and is an automatic out, hes also a below average to mediocre catcher, lets stop saying hes a ‘ great pitch framer’ he sucks at hitting and is a liability everytime hes up.
Vazquez needs to lose the gut and show up in shape. It was embarrassing to see. His skills are all on decline, his throwing is mostly off line and he thinks he’s a speed demon. Eovaldi doesn’t want to throw to him and Erod, his buddy, is gone.
No issue going with Plawecki and Wong and dealing him for whatever they can get.
Butch – Sale and Pivetta don’t want to throw to Vazquez either.
FPG – I used to hate watching Vazquez catch because he set up too far off the plate and lost many pitches that were over the plate but on the opposite side from him causing him to stretch making the umpire think the pitch was a ball.
He’s improved over the years but that may be a function of the catching coaches not Vazquez. I struggle to find the proper place to put the blame when it comes to how the games are called from a location and pitch selection stand point.
I also struggle to know why the framing is so bad at times. Do the coaches have a book on plate umpires and which ones support framing and which ones don’t? For many years I have felt the weakness was organizational when it comes to catching. Varitek may be the reason Vazquez got better at framing or maybe he had nothing to do with it. I liked the way Varitek set up behind the plate and framed pitches.
It looks like the Red Sox were under the cap last year. Does anyone remember who was the person with the 100-line diatribes insisting that Robles put us over the cap, because he thought the RS picked up his entire $2M salary despite only costing ~ $167k?
Joe – In all fairness to KD (since you took his side on Stallings vs Vazquez) ….
Spotrac still shows the Red Sox at $211.8M Luxury Tax Payroll for this year. Pretty sure it’s because they have an error with Robles, as his $1.3M Retained Salary for April thru July is included in the Red Sox payroll instead of in the Twins payroll. .
So technically, KD was correct in stating the Red Sox went over the $210M threshold if you go by Spotrac.
spotrac.com/mlb/boston-red-sox/payroll/2021/
Spotrac is correct in showing $699K Robles Luxury Tax Salary for active players which makes sense because they had him for almost a third of the season which means a third of his $2M annual salary.
Nope. I explained where Spotrac was wrong. The $699k in salary is probably ballpark right, but MN sent us $500k. And I pointed out to him where he could find this information.
And, as I pointed out to KD, Spotrac is not accurate. It’s like COTs and BR when it comes to salaries. Take Robles once again, for example. He is listed under Active Players as $698,945. He is also listed under Retained Salaries as $1,301,055, for a total of $2M.
If KD stumbled across the site, and thought it was accurate, that can happen to anyone. When someone points out the errors, and you refuse to believe it, only because he hates Bloom, that’s a whole lot of crazy thinking.
LOL … Joe you repeated exactly what I said, the portion of Robles’ salary that should have been allocated to the Twins was allocated to the Red Sox instead.
However, the Twins did NOT send us $500K. They promised to pay it at a later date, just like PTBNL are both named and change teams at a later date.
Look at my favorite website Fangraphs and you will see the $500K has NOT been paid:
fangraphs.com/roster-resource/payroll/twins?season…
And here’s the thing, if the Red Sox don’t receive the $500K until after 12/01/21 (which has already passed) then when they do receive it, likely in 2022, it will reduce their 2022 payroll.
Furthermore, Fangraphs also shows the Red Sox going over the $210M Luxury Tax Payroll.
fangraphs.com/roster-resource/payroll/red-sox?seas…
I’m all for calling out people who pull things out of their behind, but if they get their info from a reputable source that’s not on them. Information we all provide is only as good as the sources that we get the information from. If you repeat one of the many erroneous things that Pete Abe says, I wouldn’t blame you at all. I’d blame him.
I do agree with you that refusing to believe errors were made after seeing the proof is not right.
“” then when they do receive it, likely in 2022, it will reduce their 2022 payroll.””
———————————
It doesn’t matter when it is paid. If it did, then every team in baseball would manipulate it. The Padres could trade Hosmer & Myers tomorrow if they didn’t think they would take the payroll hit over the life of the contract.
“”Furthermore, Fangraphs also shows the Red Sox going over the $210M Luxury Tax Payroll.””
————–
All that matters is what MLB believes, and the RS, like I said, did not go over the limit. And most of these sites are really poor on details. They all get Sale’s contract right, but when a team is at $209M, then you also have to get the 20 or so low-wage guys correct.
“”I’m all for calling out people who pull things out of their behind, but if they get their info from a reputable source that’s not on them. Information we all provide is only as good as the sources that we get the information from.””
———————————–
It’s okay to question your sources. KD originally argued that we picked up his full year’s salary, It’s okay to not be aware of the $500k payment (at least until I told him), but thinking that we somehow picked up a full year’s salary, is crazy.
Past that, the a priori assumption is that any competent GM knows to the penny what his payroll is. This isn’t complicated. No GM is going to spend $210,100,000 when they thought the right number was $209.900,000. Mistakes like that don’t happen.
Joe – Here’s a source, and what I’ve always understood to be the case on Cash Considerations:
ARTICLE XXIII C (2) (b) (iii).
The team sending the money includes that money in its payroll for the contract year in which it’s paid.
Any cash consideration that is, pursuant to the preceding sentence, included in the Actual Club Payroll of the payor Club shall be subtracted from the Actual Club Payroll of the payee Club in the same Contract Year in which it is added to the payor Club’s Actual Club Payroll..
A “Contract Year” runs December 2 of one year through and including December 1 of the following year.
If Bloom managed to stay under the cap, and get a credit for $500k for 2022, then he is even more of a genius than I anticipated.
That said, and while I don’t think your interpretation is correct, that is might fine digging. But past that, how about Perez? Your FG schedule shows the RS including the $500k owed to Perez for the 2022 season, as a 2021 expense. In fact, FG shows Perez getting the same $500k buyout in both 2021 and 2022.
And along the same lines, the schedule also uses the same tense for our payments due to LA, for Price, and our payments due to KC for Benni, as ‘owed’.
Joe – Regarding Perez, I don’t quite understand your point. The Red Sox declined his 2022 option in November and will pay the $500K buyout after 12/01/21. Why do you think the $500K should go towards 2021 when it relates to 2022?
And yes, Perez’s original contract was bought out. That’s why you see the $500K twice. Bloom saved money by doing the buyout and signing Perez to a brand new contract.
Okay, that makes sense, I forgot the $500k from 2020.
Joe: “It doesn’t matter when it is paid. If it did, then every team in baseball would manipulate it.”
Every team DOES manipulate by extending the timing of actual payments.
The Red Sox are still paying Manny Ramirez and Dustin Pedroia, because the team deferred their salaries so the money wouldn’t go against the Luxury Tax Payroll until future years. Haven’t you heard the Mets still have Bobby Bonilla included in their payroll?
That’s exactly my point. The deferrals are included in the AAV as the present value off all future payments. The Sale contract calls for $30M in 2022, but a cash payment of only $20M in 2022. The $10M is to be paid for 2035-2039.
But for AAV purposes, the date of the payments don’t matter. They do a PV of all payments, spread out over the term of the contract.
Joe – I just want to make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying both Fangraphs and Spotrac are incorrect in including deferred payments in the year they are paid? So you’re saying payments to Manny and Pedroia should NOT be counted toward 2021 or 2022 payroll?
It’s two separate things.
If you sign a player for $50M/5 years, then it is always $10M/year, even if you cut him in the middle of the 4th year
If you sign a guy for $50M/5, but pay him $50M 6 years from now, you still get charged his salary for the five years. It is just calculated as the PV of whatever payments are made in whatever year.
Thought of from a more intuitive perspective, let’s say a team was at $200, and wanted to sign Bryant. Instead of signing him for say, $135M/5, which would push them over the cap. they could sign him to a $135M/15 years. Instead of getting charged $27M, and going over the cap, they would get charged $9M, and stay under the cap.
Joe – I see what you’re saying, thanks and Happy Holidays!
You too! Enjoy!
Joe – I didn’t pay attention to the original debate between you and KD, and if there wasn’t a lockout I probably wouldn’t have commented on the subject.
I agree, I’ve never heard of an acquiring team reimbursing the trading team for salary the trading team already paid to the player. But Cash Considerations has a gray area, you can send cash with a player in a trade without it being specifically earmarked for that player’s salary. So theoretically, a team COULD end up paying more for a player than what that player is still owed on his contract.
And yes, no team will make a mistake calculating Luxury Tax Payroll if they are trying to stay under the threshold.
So basically we can all conclude that Spotrac and Fangraphs, among other sites, are not reliable. Remember that when we have future discussions in which you provide stats from those websites ;O)
There is a reason why I don’t refer to short-term defensive numbers from FG. For hard numbers, like assists and errors, they are likely to be 100% correct. The rest of the stats, like UZR/150 and DRS, etc., are only reliable over a longer period of time.
IMO, I go with Fielding Bible and nothing else.