Six legendary names have been inducted to the National Baseball Hall Of Fame, as per the results of today’s special selection committee meetings. Bud Fowler, Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Minoso, Tony Oliva, and Buck O’Neil have all been elected to Cooperstown, and will be officially inducted on July 24 along with any players voted in by the regular writers’ ballot.
Often referred to as “veterans committee” selections, the Baseball Hall Of Fame now organizes an annual panel with a differing membership that focuses on a rotation of different eras in the sport’s history. The Early Baseball (covering candidates from 1871-1949) committee meets once per decade, the Golden Days (1950-1969) committee once every five years, and the Modern Baseball (1970-1987) and Today’s Game (1988-present) committees meet twice each during every five-year period.
Last year’s vote was postponed due to the pandemic, so this winter saw both the Early Baseball and Golden Days committees each meet, resulting in 20 possible candidates for Cooperstown. Each committee was comprised of 16 members, and each member can list as many as four names on their voting ballot. Candidates must receive at least 12 votes to receive induction into the Hall of Fame.
Minoso, Hodges, Kaat, and Oliva were inducted on the Golden Days ballot. Minoso received 14 votes, while Hodges, Kaat, and Oliva all received 12 votes apiece. Dick Allen fell just short with 11 votes, another unfortunate close call after Allen also missed out on the 2015 ballot by a single vote. Other candidates on the ballot included Ken Boyer, Roger Maris, Danny Murtaugh, Billy Pierce, and Maury Wills, who all received three or fewer votes.
O’Neil and Fowler were inducted via the Early Baseball ballot, with O’Neil receiving 13 of 16 votes and Fowler receiving 12 votes. Other candidates on the ballot receiving votes were Vic Harris (10 votes), John Donaldson (eight), Allie Reynolds (six), Lefty O’Doul (five), and George Scales (four), while Bill Dahlen, Grant “Home Run” Johnson, and Dick Redding received three or fewer votes.
This edition of the Early Baseball ballot put a renewed focus on the Negro Leagues. Donaldson, Johnson, Redding, and Scales were all star Negro League players, while O’Neil both played and managed in the NAL before becoming a coach with the Cubs and a longtime scout in the Cubs and Royals organizations.
In addition, Fowler was arguably the first black professional player, an accomplished second baseman who spent his career barnstorming around North America playing with many all-black teams and some integrated amateur teams. Fowler also founded and organized several teams and leagues both during and beyond his playing days, with his influence as an early pioneer helping set the stage for what we now recognize as the Negro Leagues. Fowler, whose birth name was John Jackson in 1858, also spent part of his childhood growing up in Cooperstown.
There has been perhaps no greater ambassador for either the Negro Leagues or even baseball itself than O’Neil, one of the game’s most beloved figures. Beyond his on-field success as a player, O’Neil helped scout and then shape the careers of countless players during his long career, and he became the first black coach in MLB history when hired by the Cubs in 1962.
It was widely expected that O’Neil would receive induction into the HOF back in 2006 when a special committee was formed to focus on Negro Leagues legends, and yet while 17 other illustrious names were given the nod for Cooperstown, O’Neil was surprisingly omitted. Nonetheless, O’Neil took the decision with his customary grace, and even spoke at the induction ceremony that summer. O’Neil passed away later that same year.
Minoso also began his career in the Negro Leagues, as the Cuba native spent parts of three seasons with the New York Cubans before debuting in the big leagues with the Indians in 1949. Minoso played parts of 20 seasons in the majors (12 with the White Sox), hitting .299/.387/.461 over 8223 career plate appearances and receiving 13 total All-Star selections. Minoso finished as high as fourth in MVP voting on five different occasions, and won three Gold Gloves.
Later generations might remember Minoso for his cameo appearances in 1976 and 1980, as White Sox owner Bill Veeck arranged for Minoso (at ages 50 and 54) to play in five games and thus become only the second player to play Major League Baseball in five different decades. Beyond that quirky footnote, however, Minoso has an incredible legacy as an icon to both Cuban players in particular, and for Hispanic baseball players across generations.
Speaking of footnotes, Hodges’ status as the player who received the most HOF votes on the writers’ ballot without ever receiving induction to Cooperstown is now a thing of the past. While Hodges’ initial path to the Hall may have been hampered by a lack of league-leading or even team-leading credentials, Hodges still put together an outstanding career, hitting .273/.359/.487 with 370 home runs over 8104 career PA in 18 seasons with the Dodgers and Mets.
It isn’t as if Hodges was overlooked in his time, as he was an eight-time All-Star and the winner of three Gold Gloves. He also captured two World Series titles with the Dodgers as a player, and added a third ring as a manager in 1969, leading the out-of-nowhere Mets to one of the most surprising championships in sports history.
A prototype of the old-school workhorse pitcher, Kaat pitched 4530 1/3 innings and 180 complete games over 25 years in the majors, while posting a 3.45 ERA. One of the best-fielding pitchers of all time, Kaat won 16 Gold Gloves during his career, tied for the second-highest total of GGs for any player at any position. The southpaw also received three All-Star nods, and won a late-career World Series title while working out of the Cardinals bullpen in 1982.
Kaat played for five different teams over his long career, but spent 15 of his seasons with the Twins. Twelve of those seasons overlapped with Oliva’s Minnesota career, and now the two former teammates will join forces once again on their way into the Hall of Fame.
Oliva spent all 15 of his seasons in a Twins uniform, beginning his career with a bang by winning Rookie Of The Year honors in 1964. In defiance of the sophomore slump, Oliva became the first player to ever win batting titles in his first two seasons, and he also added a third batting crown in 1971. Oliva hit .304/.353/.476 with 220 home runs over 6880 PA, and it is fair to wonder if Oliva could’ve added considerably to this resume had he not been beset by several injuries in the latter years of his career. His relatively short prime may have been the reason it took so long for Cooperstown recognition, and yet what a prime it was — Oliva was an All-Star every year from 1964 to 1971, and was a runner-up in AL MVP voting in both 1965 and 1970.
The 16 members of the Early Baseball panel were Bert Blyleven, Ferguson Jenkins, Ozzie Smith, Joe Torre, John Schuerholz, Bill DeWitt, Ken Kendrick, Tony Reagins, Gary Ashwill, Adrian Burgos Jr., Leslie Heaphy, Jim Henneman, Justice Hill, Steve Hirdt, Rick Hummel and John Thorn.
The 16 members of the Golden Days panel were Jenkins, Smith, Torre, Schuerholz, DeWitt, Kendrick, Reagins, Burgos, Hirdt, Rod Carew, Mike Schmidt, Bud Selig, Al Avila, Kim Ng, Jaime Jarrin and Jack O’Connell.
kennyk67
Jim Kaat over Dick Allen??? Can’t say I agree with that.
mike127
What does Jim Kaat have to do with Dick Allen?
kennyk67
Both were on the Golden Days ballot, Kaat got in, Allen didn’t.
mike127
But it was not Jim Kaat against Dick Allen. The vote pick on each individual’s merit—-not one versus the other. I apologize if I misunderstand your post.
stan lee the manly
They are only allowed to vote for four people. There is absolutely a possibility where Allen was the fifth vote on someone’s ballot and was left off because Kaat took the 4th vote. So even by this weird roundabout refusal to see why talking about Kaat getting in and Allen not getting in makes sense, they are still intertwined enough where Kaat getting in could in fact prevent Allen from doing the same.
LordD99
That four-vote limitation might have helped Kaat and Oliva and hurt Allen. The Era Committees and its predecessors have an unfortunate tendency to vote players in after they’ve died. It’s already happens with Allen, who passed last December. Maybe one or two of the voters decided to delay Allen’s eventually election a few more years with the goal of trying to honor a couple players still walking the earth who could appreciate enshrinement.
deweybelongsinthehall
Glad Kitty got on now while he can hopefully enjoy the moment. Besides his playing career, he’s as good a color commentator as there ever was and us still doing it! As Allen, he belongs in too!
SocraticGadfly
NEITHER belonged in.
O’Neil belonged in as a “contributor.”
Danny Murtaugh is the one who got his ass robbed off, AGAIN.
Bad Bill Dahlen also got robbed.
Bill Fowler? Career stats largely a blank. Wouldn’t have voted him in.
Certainly wouldn’t have voted in any of the others.
My baseball fandom continues to deteriorate, courtesy of a modern Veterans Committee as stupid as the Frank Frisch-Bill Terry one.
MIKE PAUL
so hodges who hit more home runs as a right handed batter than anyone in baseball at the time of his retirement and also managed a world series champion, didn’t belong ?
dale123
Kaat was a stat builder .hell he pitched 25 years he should have 280 wins just being a 500 pitcher.
GarryHarris
Bill Dahlen was elected a couple years ago.
I disagree. I’ve been watching for Jim Kaat and Tommy John induction for many years. Look at their win totals, Kaat’s GG and broadcasting service and John’s pioneering medical procedure which will benefit countless careers and carry his name forever.
RobM
I suggest you’re not the fan you imply if you’re letting your baseball fandom deteriorate because of HOF voting. Oliva, Minoso, Hodges all are in the top 1% of players to play in MLB.
miltpappas
Make the same case with Phil Niekro and Gaylord Perry.
deweybelongsinthehall
How can you comment on Fowler, when you never saw him play? Sometimes the contributions are more than just stats.
deweybelongsinthehall
To be able to pitch that well for that long says something and remember he got in because of his contributions as a player AND broadcaster. You thing McCarver made on his playing stats? McCarver might be the greatest color man ever (I forgot about him earlier) but Kitty has been nearly as good. My top four color guys are probably McCarver, Kaat, Kubek and Garagiola. I. time, Remy could gain in appreciation nationally.
deweybelongsinthehall
John’s medical contribution? I think Fr. Kobe’s was more important. Who remember’s Nameth for contributing his knees? Dr. James Nicholas deserves the credit (with others) for pioneering knee surgeries and the Lenox Hill hinged brace.
deweybelongsinthehall
*Dr. Jobe.
JoeBrady
Hodges also missed the better part of four years in the military.
gbs42
dewey – McCarver is not in the HOF. Yes, he received a broadcasting award, but that’s not the same thing as being a Hall of Famer.
Robertowannabe
Glad that I read down before commenting. There are several people in the HOF based on what they did for the game besides just stats. Even with just a small amount of research, it appears Mr. Fowler did a ton to help establish the early game. Without the early game being built, there may not have been several of the modern day players to argue over who should be in the Hall.
capnfatback
Tantrums like these crack me the hell up.
johnk
Dick Allen was a jerk when he played. That might explain his lack of votes
Redwood13
You have to remember the teams he played on, they weren’t the greatest
Braves20
Good for Gil Hodges – a New York icon. There is a marked similarity between his numbers and those of Dale Murphy. Only stark difference is the two MVPs for Murphy and more Gold Gloves. And Hodges, of course, played on much better teams..
panj341
Murtaugh record as a manager is impressive. Only managed 12 full seasons and had 5 seasons with 90 + wins and 1 with 89 and 1 with 88.
He also was ahead of his time by being the first to field an all nonwhite lineup.
He would have already been in the Hall if he didn’t have poor health and died young. Would have taken the Pirates to the World Series in ’79 instead of Chuck Tanner.
dodger1958
If Lasorda is in, Billy Cox is in and/or, if Boche is elected, Murtaugh should be too.
dlw0906
You’re biggest mistake Socratic is taking the HOF so seriously. It’s always been flawed and always will be. Letting HOF voting ruin your baseball fandom is silly. Though kudos on your recognition of Murtaugh, a really forgotten guy. Two WS wins and numerous division titles. It was him, Dick Williams, Sparky and Earl who ruled the managerial roost for the first half decade of the 70s.
dlw0906
Mike Paul shhh, don’t try logic in this forum. Hodges was a monster ’49-’59. Plus he didn’t strike out too much and had a strong obp, especially for a power hitter. Plus he was the best 1B of the decade, and it wasn’t really close. I don’t count Musial because he was predominately an OF till 1957.
ChiSox_Fan
Dick had a bad reputation with the media. His performance speaks for itself but, unfortunately, subjective criteria may have something to do with him getting bumped.
When is Dick Allen eligible again?
einsteinhood
BUD Fowler was born in 1858 and wasn’t allowed to play in the National League because of his skin color. That’s why there isn’t a statistical record. He’s in because of contemporary accounts of his skill and his overall contributions to the game, as is laid out in the piece, which you obviously never read.
JoeBrady
dlw0906
You’re biggest mistake Socratic is taking the HOF so seriously.
===============================
This is a mistake all over the country. I’ve read articles about families breaking up over Covid and political arguments. It’s nuts. I think Baines was as bad choice as possible, but I didn’t lose a minutes sleep over it.
And, FWIW, almost any choice by a veteran’s committee has to be contentious. If the players were a slam-dunk, they’d already be in.
dodger1958
Redwood neither were the Cubs teams yet Banks is in, Santo is in and Jenkins is in.
bhambrave
Kaat and Allen were on the same ballot.
Doral Silverthorn
It’s and if/then argument with regards to Kaat and Allen and it just doesn’t work that way.
Fever Pitch Guy
I’m very happy for all of them. Everyone loved Buck, and just recently I was saying here that Hodges should be in. His induction opens up the door for Crime Dog.
SocraticGadfly
Not. Even. Close. Under 45 WAR, and not that as a manager. Congrats for thinking we needed yet another Harold Baines in the Hall. That’s who Gill Hodges is.
MIKE PAUL
you need to watch more football because you obviously dont know crap about baseball
KCJ
And Jim Kaat. 4.9 K/9 and a +ERA of 108 is a hall of famer? Led the entire league in hits allowed 4 times. I don’t get it. Maybe they elected him based on his fielding?
KCJ
MIKE PAUL –
You’re not exactly proving yourself to be very intelligent with a post like that. What makes you think you know anything about baseball? Ever look at career stats and the typical standards for hall of famers? Guess it’s just easier to make some childish comment and provide nothing to back it up
deweybelongsinthehall
Stop looking at just stats. Kitty was solid I. a day when you tried to get outs and win. imagine that. A baseball game played simplistically. Unfortunately, players got stronger, stadiums got smaller and equipment including the ball was designed for offense. Such makes what Pedro, Scherzer, et al. did even more amazing.
deweybelongsinthehall
Kitty is in for his body of work in the sport as is Hodges. Unfortunately, today everything is analyzed in a computer vacuum.
MIKE PAUL
i have ni idea what comment you are talking about. is it that i think the guy should watch more football, if so i stand by that, he knows nothing about baseball. hodges is harold baines ? not even close. his stats at the time of his retirement spoke for themselves. he should have been in years ag along with minoso and vada pinson, who is remarkably not in yet
dlw0906
Dewey Hodges is in because he was the best 1B of his era offensively by a fair margin and aside from Vic Power defensively as well. Offensively you had Joe Adcock and Klusewski but neither kept it going for the whole decade. Hodges had a helluva run from 1949-1959. Didn’t miss many games either. He tore it up in 4 of his 5 1950s World Series appearances too.
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
Fred McGriff not be in the HOF is truly sorrowful. One of the best and most feared hitters of his time. Not taking anything away from Minnie Minoso, but if his stats justify a HOF induction, what about Al Oliver? Oliver’s career numbers hold up well against a lot of guys who are in the HOF.
deweybelongsinthehall
McGriff is truly deserving. Sadly, certain PED users who cheated to enhance their stats are already in. More wrongs don’t make it right. Bonds, Clemens, ARod, Mac, and those who I suspect like Papi would never get my vote if I had one. Fraud is fraud. They earned many millions by fraudulent means and in my view each should have been treated as such. I still believe Dwight Evans body of work is deserving (as are Munson, Tiant, Garvey, Bell and so many others) but in some cases during their final times on the ballot, their stats were overshadowed by the PED explosion.
gbs42
dewey – What known PED users are in the HOF?
kje76
Minnie Minoso had decent stats, but Minoso’s Hall of Fame case isn’t entirely about stats. Minoso was one of the first Latin players in the game – the first black Cuban. Minoso was a pioneer for all that came after him, much as Bud Fowler from the Early Days class.
kroeg49
Minnie was also a great ambassador for the game of baseball, and not just for the White Sox.
LordD99
He unfortunately missed by one vote. He will be elected eventually, but probably his family will have to wait another five or six years.
Kaat benefits more in retrospect because of his high won total, innings pitched, etc. Fine pitcher but I would have left him off. Minosa, Allen and Olivia would have made my ballot.
SocraticGadfly
Kaat? Compiler. Pure and simple.
deweybelongsinthehall
What about his thirty or forty years in the booth as one of the best ever color guys? Stop looking so narrowly.
Dumpster Divin Theo
40 acres in the booth.
User 4245925809
Don’t gripe about Dick Allen not getting in because of Kitty Kaat, who pitched well for 25y in The Bigs.. Want to gripe? Rest of the inductees were mediocre players/managers (Hodges), or superior players (Tony-O), and great glove, super popular player Minnie Minosa.
Take the gripe to another position player where it’s easier to whine, not a good pitcher who won close to 300g, an auto induction point anyway.
SocraticGadfly
The BIG gripe is Murtaugh still getting screwed.
MIKE PAUL
screwed for what. what did he do. managed 2 championship teams.
KCJ
JohnSilver –
Pitched “well” for 25 years? Take a look at his career numbers. Decent player but had about a handful of years where he was anything more than a #3 or #4 starter on a winning team. That’s not hall of fame material. That’s 25 years of compiling….the last 5 spent as a mop up pitcher. For his career, 4.9 k/9 and a +ERA of 108. That screams middle to end of rotation pitcher…a decent one but certainly not a hall of famer
deweybelongsinthehall
How many pitched for 25 years? Jamie Moyer and who else? Add in the 30-40 years as a great (yes great) broadcaster and to me the argument is what took so long?
JoeBrady
johnsilver
pitched well
a good pitcher
===================================
And therein lies the problem. Nowhere in there do you say he was a HOF pitcher, or even a great pitcher, simply a good pitcher.
Gwynning's Anal Lover
Maybe they just don’t like Dick as much?
bucsfan0004
Kaat = kompiler
dale123
Such bs dick Allen still not voted in .he was the 2nd most dominate power hitter from mid 60s to mid 70s behind only aaron.
deweybelongsinthehall
I’m not going to argue. I remember Allen more for the end of his career but he was still feared (on and off the field). Trying to be objective, the most glaring omission to me is Albert Belle. He may have been a despicable person but on the field, there were few equals when he played. His career was cut short if I recall correctly by a hip injury (like Bo Jackson) but he did way more than enough. His personality kept him out but this needs to be corrected
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Jim Kaat might have been the 1966 AL Cy Young winner with 25 wins but it was the last year with only a single Cy Young for both years. And neither Kaat nor anyone else could match Koufax that year with 27 wins and a stellar era and whip. In 1966, Kaat was in the top five or six for AL MVP. But other than 1966, Kaat was more amazing for his longevity than his single season brilliance.
Kaat was never close in the votes from baseball writers. The veterans committee obviously gave a premium to longevity and bonus points for his broadcasting career.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
single CY Young for both “leagues”
deweybelongsinthehall
Exactly. He should have been honored in the broadcasting wing years ago (as should have Tony Kubek if he’s not in)
Mr_KLC
I’m glad the little comment he made at the Field Of Dreams game didn’t hurt him.
Oldman58
A shame Dick Allen was shut out again
rct
Yep. Love all of the picks but wish Allen could have made it, too. ROY, MVP, an incredible slash line, just an amazing hitter.
slider32
Nettles , Boyer, Rolen, and Bando were better players than Allen.
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
slider32: You need to adjust our meds after that post. None of those four 3B could hold a candle to Dick Allen. In his time, few hitters struck fear into the hearts of pitchers more than Allen.
slider32
Just check baseball reference, without smoking a pack of cigs a day!
JoeBrady
slider32
Nettles , Boyer, Rolen, and Bando were better players than Allen.
=================================
No, but some of those guys deserve serious consideration. Rolen should be fairly automatic, and I assume he will get voted in.
As a RS, I’d be glad to say that Nettles was every bit the player that Boggs was, just in completely opposite ways. He has a 67.9 bWAR, so that should be a problem. He had a better OPS+ than Brooks Robinson, so that shouldn’t be a problem. The only difference between the two were the GGs, and I think I read that Brooks thought Nettles was every bit as good as he was.
Boyer had both the career length WAR, and a better bWAR/650 than either Brooks or Nettles. Had he had the GGs around when he started, he’d likely have ten of them. And the fact that he has 7 AS appearances, when Eddie Mathews was playing in the same league, is fairly remarkable.
User 4245925809
Yet another reason OPS, OPS+ and other numbers mean little..
Brooks Robinson was IMO.. he best defensive 3b ever saw and probably post 1960’s, which is my time as a fan.
Earl Weaver kept Robinson at 3b, long after his bat had faded because for years the O’s had the BEST starters in the game, therefore needed defense to go with it and kept Robinson at 3b, alongside Mark belanger.. equally the best SS with the glove in his period and could not hit his weight in later years as starters.
Reason why Earl Weaver is in the Hall and couple others named within posts here in this topic are not.. Weaver was a genius, others named mostly right time and right place.
kroeg49
Joe Brady, what are you smoking. Allen was head and shoulder above all the players you mentioned as third basemen.
JoeBrady
You misread my response. When Slider said those players were better than Allen, I said no. But I did say that those players merited serious consideration.
Yankee Clipper
Man, I’ve seen a lot of Dick in this thread. Allen, of course.
NY_Yankee
These are good choices.,The committee could not take the chance that the writers elect no living players, so Kaat and Olivia were chosen. O’Neill, Minoso snd especially Hodges were overdue ( especially because his widow is 95 and this was probably her last chance to see him elected).
SocraticGadfly
Gil Hodges? The new Harold Baines. “Overdue” for nothing.
tidybowlman
Complain about Mini Minoso first.
DarkSide830
what about Jumbo Miñoso though?
MIKE PAUL
you have no clue
slider32
Let’s face it, none of these guys could carry A – Rods jock!
TwinCities
I’m sure they could. ARod only needed an extra-small due to those special vitamins making him light in the hooves…
Fever Pitch Guy
Regarding ARod: To quote the incomparable Detective Anthony Vincenzo Baretta, “Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time.”
slider32
Do your research into amphetamines before your judge other players, Victor Cruz seems to be doing very well since being busted for Biogneisis.
Halo11Fan
No player considered amphetamines cheating. Cheating is an unfair advantage. People bought PEDs clandestinely on the black market and attempted to destroy their paper trail.
They handed out amphetamines on busses and had them in punch bowls at parties.
Only people with no common sense compare the two.
Use your brain and do less research.
iverbure
Did every player use greenies? Did some maybe do some research and choose not to take part because they didn’t know the risks?
slider32
I played in the minors when amphetamines were used, and they helped players alot. They just don’t want to trash the players that are already in the Hall because many took amphetamines.
SocraticGadfly
IF any of them did do greenies, they’re not the same as roids.
Pleeeze.
schellis 2
Anyone that did greenies most certainly would have done the cream and clear.
Both will get you a suspension now.
Halo11Fan
Everyone did greenies, no one complained.
Read Ball Four.
deweybelongsinthehall
Greenies were team doctor prescribed and just made you alert in the way energy shots do today.
deweybelongsinthehall
Are you out if your mind Schellis? Do you have one? Greenies didn’t make you stronger or heal faster. To me greenies then = energy shots today. Anyone using greenies got them from the team, their own physician, etc. They weren’t paid in cash, delivered in a brown wrapper with someone else’s name on them and medical records weren’t altered to hide things. Moreover, they weren’t taken in the bathroom like a junkie.
ohyeadam
If you don’t think amphetamines impact a player’s performance look no further than Chris Davis
slider32
That woulld eliminate 90% of the Hall of Fame players since 1960!
Halo11Fan
Would they have carried his steroids. A Rod is a thief.
slider32
So are all the Amphetamine users which is about 90 % of the players who played from 1960 to 2006, check the batting averages.
tstats
Did you just use batting average for an arguement
slider32
Yes, amphetamines increase reaction time, make your more alert, and give you a feeling of uphoria. Averages have gone down 50 points since there elimination.
DarkSide830
you do realize the whole launch angle and hitting for power concepts could also be what’s diving that, right?
Halo11Fan
You keep missing the point.
If you play Monopoly and you steal an extra 200 dollars every time you land on Go, that’s not the same as everyone agreeing you take 400 dollars when you land on Go.
Players committed perjury lying about their PED use, players handed out greenies by the punch bowl.
How people don’t understand the difference is beyond me.
SocraticGadfly
They also make you jittery and worsen hand-eye coordination. Again, greenies ain’t roids, to you and all the current and former ESPN baseball writing staff.
Averages have gone down, but NOT “50 points.”
I smell something in the room!
MIKE PAUL
i believe what you smell is you
deweybelongsinthehall
Just like energy shots today.
deweybelongsinthehall
They’re a) just trying to protect their inner images of their idols; b) living life the same way or c) both. Imagine if they were ori golfers where integrity is still vitally important. How many would self-repirt? Integrity is today missing from most sports due to the money that can be earned.
gbs42
Gadfly – You smelt it, you dealt it.
slider32
Yes, and the shift, but the numbers don;t lie!
DarkSide830
what if A-Rod was playing by the rules?
slider32
Let”s just use Victor Cruz, he only hit the most HRs since 2013 since Biogenisis, and he could hold A-Rod jock either. So they give him the Humanitarian away like nothing happened. You are all hypocrites.. Players have always been trying to get the edge, but if they played in the games their stats don;t lie. A=Rod is the best SS and 3rd basemen of all time.
Halo11Fan
He’s a thief. He stole from fans, players and owners.
DarkSide830
that’s suggesting that it’s commonly accepted that every attempt to “try and get the edge” is as nefarious as knowingly messing with your body chemistry to hit the ball better. Even if you use the “well you don’t know who did and didn’t use it”, that’s not an excuse knowing that A-Rod got caught for it, nor does “he only admitted to doing it certain years”. I wouldn’t vote for Andy Pettitte for the same reason, even if I respect him more for his admission – you broke the rules.
slider32
There were many players taking steroids and amphetamines , only the great players excelled.
bucketbrew35
AROD did not compare defensively to Schmidt at third so you are absolutely incorrect on that. They can run as many models as they want to say otherwise but he was never as good of a defensive third baseman as he was a SS.
slider32
Not really, many players where doing the same thing for years before him.
slider32
Many athletes in the major sports have and are still taking HGH, and other drugs to get an edge, let’s not be niave and think otheriwise..
DarkSide830
and I’m sure they are, but until we have any good reason to believe which ones then we cant just act like everyone’s A-Rod. And, honestly, if everyone’s A-Rod then I’m fine with saying no one’s a HoF out of pinciple.
slider32
My question to you Dark Side, you do explain Victor Cruz, he was in Biogenisis. He has led the major in home runs since 2013 and was the best DH in baseball, He just got the Humanitarian award. Either he is a great hitter or he is taking PEDs to make him that player. Can you see the double standard? Many players in the Hall have taken some kind of performance inhancing drug. If the league let them play in the games, and they performed that’s good enough for me. I have seen the other side.
fivendime
I don’t understand why the ex NY Giants WR is being brought up in an article about MLB HOF nominations.
WhoNoze
Victor Cruz (RP) never hit a HR in his career unless it was HS or Little League, unless the Giants WR did it in HS or College. You follow baseball much?
Jean Matrac
I’m pretty sure all players knew about PEDs. No one that was playing then was clueless to what they could do. And I think it’s delusional to think, with guys knowing and seeing what McGwire and Sosa were doing, that the result wasn’t wide spread PED use. Schilling said as much about the D’backs when he was in AZ.
The outrage directed at the guys that got caught is disingenuous. Call it cheating if you want, but using, and not getting caught, is also cheating. A lot guys were using and didn’t get caught. The more than 100 guys named in the Mitchell report were from only one source. Just because guys didn’t get caught doesn’t mean they weren’t cheating as much as the guys that got nabbed.
None knows who was a PED user and didn’t get caught. But I can guarantee there are plenty. Claiming that one guy is a cheater, and another is a false claim, since there is no way to know.
So if people think it’s fair that cheaters get a pass, and a chance at the HoF, just because they didn’t caught, then I have to disagree. I think it’s unfair that PED users are in the HoF, while others are kept out, only because of luck and circumstance.
bucsfan0004
A-Roid has man boobs.
dodger1958
Victor Cruz? He was a pitcher.
DarkSide830
You mean Nelson, right? Yeah, dude’s been juiced up.since at least his Texas days, but he’s already been caught, same as A-Rod. I wouldnt ever vote for a convicted PED user and tread carefully with the heavily accused (see my argument on Bonds and Clemens).
FredMcGriff for the HOF
@who. I believe Slider is referencing Nelson Cruz. I have no idea why he insists on calling him Victor. If Pete Rose isn’t in the HOF then no known roid users should be either. HOF is getting watered down with each passing year and today’s results show it.
Halo11Fan
Nelson Cruz. I feel the same way about him. Marty just signed a huge contact. Cheaters prosper.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
You deserve a full Nelson for incorrectly calling him Victor.
slider32
What if Nelson Cruz played by the rules?
slider32
Look, if the best players are not in the Hall of Fame it has not cred!
slider32
What if Nelson Cruz played by the rules?
wjf010
a-rod couldn’t carry Tony Oliva’s jock….fixed it for you. Only a knee injury slowed him down. if he played in today’s game with our advances in surgical technology….he would have been back on the field for another 10 years. and, Jim Kaat > Dick Allen.
slider32
Check Baseball reference!
User 4245925809
Both Tony-O and Orlando Cepeda’s knees did them in back when surgery, as you said for those kinds of injuries was in it’s infancy. Both could have played longer and should have really if not for terrible knee woes. Billy Buckner also. He did play after destroying his ankle for like 8-10y, but he was never the same dynamic speed guy and of course couldn’t play a great OF again afterwards.
Oxford Karma
Hopefully they wouldn’t want to carry it.
citizen
Why would they, a roid isn’t getting in. Admitted user, caught while cheating, banned one year. Useless on the later years. If bonds and Clemens aren’t neither is aroid. Excus me while I take a gummie to finish this post.
DarkSide830
what scares me is a few of the known ballots have him on them. that anyone in the BBWAA would have so little integrity confounds me, and the “well, we’ve probably already let cheaters in so who cares” argument is stupid. A-Rod, Manny Ramirez, Nelson Cruz, Ryan Braun, etc have defrauded the game more than the likes of Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe and yet somehow people vote for them. sad.
slider32
All are better players than the players they are putting into the Hall this year! You let them play in the game, it has to count like it or not. Otherwise the championships mean nothing!
dshires4
The great tragedy of Buck O’Neil’s election is that they had the chance to induct him while he was still living. He was such a great ambassador for the game.
GareBear
I got the blessing of meeting Buck and getting a signed Monarchs cap one day at a local Hyvee grocery store and he was such an incredible person to talk to. He was a hero in Kansas City and is still remembered for all he did with the Monarchs and Royals in the area. He is one of the faces of negro league baseball and an immortal icon in the game. This was incredibly overdue, but equally sad it was too late.
When it was a game.
I recall the uproar. That was a great tragedy and no reason he should not have voted in at the time.
slider32
The real tragedy is that nobody really knows if any of the black players were HOFers. .All we have is fish stories to document their play.
Orel Saxhiser
Thankfully, researchers have come up with more than just fish stories in documenting their careers. They were Major Leaguers. Period. Why do you think/suspect they are automatically inferior to the white players of their era? Can you say with certainty that the white Hall of Famers would have outperformed them?
josesportsfan
Buck was asked if he thought it was a shame him and other Negro Leagues players didn’t get to play with the best players. His response: “who says we didn’t?”
Sid Bream Speed Demon
I don’t think that white HOFers would automatically outperform black HOFers, but common sense can tell us that the Negro League was likely not as good as the Major Leagues.
Negro League: made up of the best 500 players or so of around 8-10% of the population
Major League: made up of the best 500 players or so of around 70% of the population.
This would obviously make the major league team rosters much deeper, even if the negro League still likely had more than it’s share of truly top-end talent.
When it was a game.
Still a lot of missing stats. From what I read about it so far it’s a lot of newspaper box scores and team paperwork which has been difficult to locate. Whites and blacks played a bunch of exhibition games back then too. Google it and some really great articles.
slider32
I don’t believe their stats are legit! It’s all fake news today! If you played in another league how can you compare them. I hear all the stories, and it makes me wonder, how true any history is today.
slider32
So, what does that mean, all players think they are the best!
Orel Saxhiser
Why should common sense tell us that? Playing in the white Major Leagues back then wasn’t seen as an honorable thing. It was seen as something a lowlife might do. Conversely, the Negro League players worked hard at honing their athletic skills and becoming good players from an early age. They played all the time because they had to. It was their way bout. This was the post-Civil War era, which wasn’t exactly brimming with opportunities for African Americans unless they were entertainers. Sing for me. Dance for me. Play ball for me. Shut up and play for me. That’s all white people thought black people were good for.
So, how did African Americans respond? By working hard and being better than their white counterparts in professions related to those skills. Sports history in America wouldn’t be much if not for the contributions of black athletes. The same with music, which is my main passion. Rock ‘n’ roll, pop, blues, R&B, soul, hip-hop-gospel, folk, even country is all derived from the contributions of black people. For all the impact The Beatles. Elvis Presley and Bob Dylan had, none of them are more influential than James Brown, who never even had a #1 single. Brown’s impact remains huge, in very good ways. It’s the same way in sports. Black people establish new ways of achieving excellence, and white people follow their lead. It’s funny how that works, undeniable as it is.
bucsfan0004
Given the build and athleticism of an average white guy vs an average black guy, its probably safe to say the Negro league players were likely better than their white contemporaries.
Orel Saxhiser
That goes back to the days of slavery. Obviously, the slaves worked harder than their masters. They were responsible for building the wealth and the very houses their masters lived in.
With baseball, we can’t just rely on whatever Negro League stats are unearthed because those guys played so much more than that. Ideally, honoring these players helps us learn some history, which includes mistakes that were made. Halls of fame are filled with people who had to overcome one obstacle or another. It’s a big reason why halls of fame exist. To inspire us to be the very best we can be.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Sid,
Nah. Using your logic, China would have more good baseball players than Japan or the Caribbean. The size of the population is not as big a factor as the extent to which the game is valued and cherished.
Waittillthisyear
Cey Hey: Wow. That’s quite a racialist two paragraph screed there. First you denigrate playing in the Major Leagues ‘back then’ as ‘not honorable’, then you state that blacks historically worked harder and were better than white athletes and entertainers, as if you were God looking down on all past humanity with a scorecard. Then you top it off by proclaiming James Brown’s oversized influence compared to artists who not only outsold him by quite a long shot both then and now, but have had more books, documentaries, films, and musicians claim their influence upon them. Even the great, proud and confident James Brown would probably say of your opinions: ‘Talkin’ Loud and Sayin’ Nothing’.
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
Did you get that data from Al Campanis!
Sid Bream Speed Demon
Lol, wow, really going full r@tard there. So whites were scummy and shameful while blacks were terrific and spent all of their time innovating ways to be superior like they “are” in every other field? That has to be one of the goofiest, nonsensical, emotional takes that I have ever seen.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
My logic is spot on, your logic is not. I am only applying mine to the US, and only during the period of negro league baseball. It’s not a hard concept. But let’s apply it to the countries that you listed (by the way, blacks were still Americans after all)….
China: if there was a Japanese league in China you really believe that all of the Japanese players would be better? And what % of Japanese people lived in China?
If there was a Caribbean league in China, you really think it would have been deeper with more talent than a Chinese team, or would the Chinese league be deeper and the Caribbean team have more top end stars? You have to compare apples to apples with my comments.
This concludes todays lesson. Thank you for attending.
bucsfan0004
The population theory always fails. Why do small island countries with 300k people continually beat the US in soccer? You don’t have to make up hypotheticals. The parallels are uncanny.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
Are you really so obtuse that you don’t understand why you are wrong? Ask someone smarter to read this to you, it doesn’t matter about overall population. So yes, that is one of the reasons that small countries beat us in soccer (other being that no one here cares about it) but my point doesn’t relate to America and it’s large population versus other whole countries and their smaller populations. My point only, only (for the love of God) relates to America and how MLB was comprised of the best 500 white players while, also in America, the Negro League was comprised of the best 500 or so non-white players, which made up a much smaller portion of America’s population. So it would be obvious to anyone that doesn’t breathe solely through their mouth that 500 of 90% of the population likely accounts for a deeper league that 500 of 10% of the population. All in America. Why is that so difficult for some of you to understand?
This would cause MLB to be deeper overall than the Negro League, but I don’t think it necessarily means that there weren’t as many top level/superstar players in the NL.
Stop equating it to America vs Cuba or whatever, it’s NOT THE SAME THING.
dodger1958
Sid,Except during the time the Negro Leagues were most popular there were only 16 MLB teams so a total of 384 active players. And, as far as I can tell, the Negro leagues (major ones) did not field that many teams so even less players.
Remember professional Basketball was in its nascent stages and pro football wasn’t really totally integrated until maybe the early 50s or later. So if a black athlete wanted to play professional sports it was more or less baseball. Black athletes dominate the NBA today. No reason to believe they wouldn’t have dominated MLB if they were allowed to play.
And knock off the abrasive, consistent and childish name calling you have engaged in on this thread. Not necessary to set forth your opinion.
JoeBrady
No reason to believe they wouldn’t have dominated MLB if they were allowed to play.
================================
Not really. The NBA is based on size, and the FL is based on size and speed. BB is based on a number of factors, including eyesight. And, if they could’ve dominated BB like they do FB and B-ball, then why don’t they?
The reason is that Latinos and Asians, who are typically smaller than African-Americans, have a level playing field in baseball.
dodger1958
Plenty of AA and Caribbean Africans have dominated MLB disproportionately to their actual numbers since the color barrier was broken. Aaron, Bonds, Mays, McCovey, Banks, Campy, Carew, JRobinson, FRobinson, Morgan, Murray, Gwynn, Cepeda, and on and on (I lose track). So yes, really.
Now, for whatever reasons, AAs are not as involved in baseball. Might have to do with lack of baseball diamonds, basketball becoming more “sexy” particularly since Jordan.
dodger1958
Joe I will add: currently there about 240 players in the Hall. The first AA or CA elected was Jackie in 1962. In addition to the 14 AAs and Cepeda, a Caribbean African (CA) I will add the following: Stargell, Reggie Jackson, Dave Winfield, OSmith, LSmith, Jetet, Dawson, Gibson, Brock, Williams, Jenkins, Henderson,, Balinese, and CAs Minoso, Marichal,Perez, Martinez, (not recall if Ortiz is in yet) and Oliva. In addition 35 Negro League players like Paige and Gibson. So AAs and CAs have indeed dominated baseball since Jackie was inducted.
josesportsfan
Couldn’t agree more. I just read 2 books on him (highly recommended). He wanted the HOF so bad not because he felt he deserved it but so that he could continue fighting for other Negro Leagues players most people have never heard of. He felt if he kept talking about the HOF, people would think he was campaigning for it.
He was the happiest person I have ever know or read about. He felt there were a lot more non-racist people than racist ones. That mentality has made me change the way I view the world in a positive manner. I now see the world in a much more positive way than I did before reading his books. A truly amazing human being.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
Of course there are a lot more people who aren’t racist versus people that are. I’m amazed that you had to read that in a book. Turn off network TV news occasionally.
WhoNoze
Actually, about 99.9%/00.1% and for that matter, it’s doubtful that races even exist but cultural bigotry however, is rampant and has always been a colorfiul aspect of American society. The comedic genius Mel Brooks made a career of humorizing it.
josesportsfan
I never watch the news because of all the negativity. I am speaking from personal experience. But instead of getting mad about it, thanks to him I don’t let get to me anymore. I think about all the positive experiences I’ve had compared to that negative one. If he had that mentality in a world where things were a lot worse then, everyone these days should too given the world is better now. I know it’s easier said than done but I never thought about anything like that before reading his autobiography.
Orel Saxhiser
Racism should be pushed back against, always. It’s the same with sexism and homophobia, which also run rampant in America. If the “bad boys” make derogatory comments, say certain words, or suggest bullying people who were born different, have the courage to stand up and firmly tell them that kind of stuff is not acceptable. It’s what we need to teach our sons, Don’t ignore the bad boys. If you do, you are allowing it to continue. Stand up to them. If you do that, you’ll be amazed at how many people will have your back, even on the job.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
No doubt about that. Hating someone for their color is about the most pathetic thing that you can do.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
I don’t understand what you are trying to say at all. Physiological differences between races are well documented. Yay Mel Brooks though.
dodger1958
Much of what Mel Brooks had to say dealt with antisemitism which is not racism. But the underlying issues are similar.
ZONTAR
Nobody says anything about all the Russophobia going on today … 20,000 German & Italian-Americans put in camps during WW2 … Chinese Exclusion Act of yesterday & today’s biases … Euro Immigrants, including the Irish, were discriminated against & used as cheap labor during the Industrial Revolution … Whites as indentured servants in Early America … We sanction Everybody, including Cuba, over geo-politics, but there’s a tinge of racism going on or something even worse = Americans always talk the talk, but never walk the walk … Peace.
JoeBrady
It’s the same everywhere-no exceptions. Go to the poorer areas of the world, and there will always be a group leaning on another group. Check out issues of Brazil Latinos with the indigenous people, or the the recent issues with Miranda and the use of darker or lighter colored Hispanics.
WhoNoze
Physiological differences vary within what some refer to as “races”, but moreover, the so-called “races”, with few exceptions, are so diluted that you’ll be hard-pressed to find an anthropologist tio agree with you that thgere is such a thing as “race”. They will agree that therre are numerous cultures, often confused with and categoried as races.
WhoNoze
Anti-Senitism can indeed be “racist” if one believes that there is a Semetic race. Of course, it usually refers to Jewish culture by those who are unaware or ignore that there are other Semetic cultures.
dodger1958
Antisemitism was coined (in Germany) and specifically refers to anti Jewish bias. Jews are not a race. Nor are Semites anymore of a race than Irish, Germans, Italians, Brazilians, Catholics etc. Jews are far far more than a culture.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
I don’t know which I find funnier, how wrong you are or how convinced of your own nonexistent superiority you are. Guess it’s a tie.
dodger1958
Not to get political? Either you knowingly lied or you are short quite a few bricks.
Halo11Fan
Tony Olivia had a very good five year career. Not even a great 5 year carrier.
Jim Katt?
I’m in the minority, but Buck O’ Neil had a sub 100 OPS+. If he made it as something other than a player, fine. But not as a player.
Minnie Minosa…..well deserved.
And I would have voted for Dick Allen.
royalsfanen
Buck O’Neil’s induction had next to nothing to do with his on-field performance and everything to do with the fact that he was a true ambassador of the game for decades.
Halo11Fan
I think there should be a spot for such players. Jim Fregosi was a great player, a 1000 game winning manager, and a great great scout.
There should be a place for multi dimensional baseball lifers.
I’m not saying he doesn’t belong, but he was not a good player.
royalsfanen
This isn’t a new things. Countless executives, broadcasters, managers, and others have been inducted solely off of their non-playing accolades. The Hall of Fame is full of them.
Halo11Fan
One dimensional. If you have a very good executive, a very good manager and a very good player, who was not hall of fame worthy in any of the three categories, that man is hall of fame worthy.
royalsfanen
And I’d absolutely agree with that.
Orel Saxhiser
Gil Hodges should have been in long ago due to his combined credentials as a player and a manager.
schellis 2
Joe torre before joe torre
Orel Saxhiser
Torre got in as a manager. I don’t understand why the person’s entire career in the game can’t be considered. Some folks think Phil Rizzuto doesn’t belong as a player, but his career as a one-of-a-kind announcer made his induction a slam dunk in my book. He kept me laughing, and I’d follow him from the TV side to the radio side just to hear what he might say next.
dodger1958
Fergosi was not a “great” player. Above average, but not great. Losing record as a manager both regular season and post season.
Orel Saxhiser
@dodger1958, Think of Fregosi in comparison to other middle infielders back then. Most of them were automatic outs with little-to-no power. As late as 1976, Bill Russell was fifth in HR among MLB with five. The leader was Toby Harrah with 15. I’m not saying Fregosi belongs, but he was a six-time all-star who was considered the AL’s best SS for much of that time. His main problem is he was essentially done by age 29.
In my opinion, Bill Freehan has a stronger case than Fregosi: 11 All-Star games (10 in a row), five Gold Gloves, and MVP finishes of 2, 3, and 7. The fact that Fregosi has a higher bWar than Freehan (*48.8 to 44.8) tells me that baseball still does a horrible job of assessing the total value of a catcher. Freehan also had to catch Denny McLain, which was no picnic for a variety of reasons.
WhoNoze
Big mystery why Freehan not in yet or for that matter, John Hiller. Fangraph had an article on Hiller some years ago and it’s worth a read if you can locate it. I’m not comfortable with RP in the HOF but if they’re going to be included, Hiller definitely belongs.
Halo11Fan
From 1963 to 1970. Here are the AL WAR leaders.
Yaz, B. Robinson, Killebrew, Fregosi, Olivia. Olivia was 5th by a large margin
Robinson Fregosi and Killebrew were within two WAR. Olivia was well back.
So you are wrong. Fregosi was great.
williemaysfield
Don zimmer is another player/manager/coach who had a long career and made a significant impact on the game. He should be is the hof
When it was a game.
I never saw kaat aa a hall of famer but to me is a great announcer too. Great stories, researches, well spoken, great insight. To me his total accomplishments puts him in there
dodger1958
Cey Hey the era he played in was one of a great deal of mediocrity in the mid infield. Doesn’t change the fact that he was nor great as Halo claimed but above average. That was my (cogent and accurate) observation. Good, not great.
KGB
Oliva had 8 straight years receiving MVP votes before his injury. Saying he has only 5 good years shows a lack of knowledge.
Halo11Fan
Hey, that sounds like Fregosi, who was a better player.
Eight straight MVP votes until a tumor pretty much ended his career as an everyday player.
Fregosi had the same number of WAR seasons above 5, and his best two seasons were much better than Olivia’s And that’s not counting Fregos’s 4.9 season. Fregosi is not a hall of fame player.
KGB
Fregosi finished in the top 10 MVP once, Oliva 5 times. Oliva finished second in MVP twice. Doesn’t seem like the facts support your case.
Halo11Fan
They voted based on the teams you played for. It’s not remotely debatable Fregosi’s best two years were better than any of Oliva’s years and Fregosi doesn’t deserve to go into the Hall as a player and he was a better player than Olivia.
In 1964, Fregosi was the second best player in the league to Mantle. In 1970, he was the second best player in the league to Yaz.
KGB
You are right, it’s not debatable. Your just wrong. And all the facts and HOF voters support me. But I’m sure the obvious truth will not change your mind.
dodger1958
No he wasn’t better than Olivia. Nor was he ever the second best player in the AL.
Orel Saxhiser
Oliva was an extraordinary, well-rounded player who was subjected to lots of crap in both the print and broadcast media due to English being his second language. In a book about Rookies of the Year by Bill Libby, the author wrote Oliva’s quotes in what he felt was a Latino dialect. One I remember was about Oliva being a bad-ball hitter. It wasn’t untrue, but the author tied it to the cloying “you-have-to-swing-the-bat-to-get-off-the-island” nonsense we grew up listening to. It went something like this in the book: “I see thee peetch. I heet thee peetch.” There were other such quotes and not just in that one book.
dodger1958
KGB so true. You cannot argue with someone who characterizes Fregosi as a “great player”. He wasn’t. He wasn’t even as good as Steve Garvey and I don’t think he belongs.
phantomofdb
LOL.
Go to baseball reference and pull up Jim Fregosi and Tony Oliva’s pages and look down at the section called “Hall of fame Statistics”. Fregosi isn’t even close by those measures.
tigw
“can,t walk off the island”
Baldkid
Dude you can’t even spell his name correctly (Kaat). BTW – how many gold glove did he win (it’s 16). I will fully admit GG shouldn’t decide HOF, but it’s just another arrow in the quiver. Had he won 17 more games would that have sufficed? 3x 20 game winner, multiple years with under 1.2o whip. Oh and it wasn’t a horrible hitting pitcher. I’m not saying he’s Babe Ruth or Cy Young, but don’t be so dismissive of this HOF’er
Halo11Fan
So, I misspelled his name. It doesn’t change the data.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
Pitcher wins and gold gloves. Lol
schellis 2
If he won 300 he’d have been in. Was in the perry/Sutton class. Him and Tommy John just didn’t hit the magic numbers. Much better to put him In over jack Morris.
dodger1958
Schellis Numerous (starting) pitchers in the hall who didn’t reach 300. Dizzy Dean, Koufax, Drysdale, and several others.
tigw
just won games
PutPeteinthehall
Jim Kaat pitched many seasons. An Ironman. I had the pleasure of meeting Minoso the year before he died at the White Sox game. Even followed him to the North side before we went our separate ways. He drove an older silver Cadillac. Was kind of obvious the team was helping him. Wish he would have been inducted while he was alive. A fine man.
Halo11Fan
I’m certainly not going to argue against the compiler point of view. Tommy John.
Orel Saxhiser
Speaking of Tommy John. the enshrinement of Dr. Frank Jobe is long overdue. It would be impossible to count all the careers the Jobe procedures have saved, especially pitching careers. Think of all the pitchers this past season who had Tommy John (Frank Jobe) Surgery. If not for Jobe, their careers would be over. And he didn’t devise just one type of surgery. The one performed on Tommy John’s elbow is completely different from the one on Orel Hershiser’s shoulder. His impact on the game is incalcuable.
When it was a game.
I thought there was a contributer to the game? Scouts agents ambassadors etc.
JoeBrady
Everyone can have their opinion, but it was 8 great seasons, not 5 good ones. He was #12 in fWAr over those 8 seasons, and everyone above him made the HOF. Those 8 seasons represented 8 straight AS appearances. and 8 straight seasons finishing with MVP votes all 8 seasons, averaging 9.5.
JerryBird
Halo – Not too different than Sandy Koufax or Dizzy Dean, eh? Five good years says a lot.
dodger1958
“Good years”? You mean years with a WAR of 10+ are only considered good?
davidk1979
So happy that Hodges gets in but Jim Kaat getting in over Dick Allen is laughable and Kaat’s inclusion smacks of politics as his buddies vote on these things.
NY_Yankee
Kast deserved it more then say Harold Baines or Lee Smith. I have little doubt Allen will make it next time around. Hodges is the most deserving of the selections followed by Minoso.
Halo11Fan
Katt also deserved it more than Morris. But is that the bar?
NY_Yankee
Morris was a great clutch pitcher. You can argue he pitched the second greatest game on MLB history ( 1-0 10 innings game 7 over Atlanta). The best being Larsen.
Halo11Fan
There is no evidence to suggest he was a great clutch pitcher.
He had a great game.
Go look at his post season numbers.
Fever Pitch Guy
No, the best pitched game ever was Pedro’s one-hit zero-walk 17-K complete game win in Yankee Stadium against the defending and soon to be repeating World Champions.
NY_Yankee
I saw Cone’s and Wells’s two perfect games and they are above Martinez’s. I saw the Pedro game Don Baylor broke it up/
Oxford Karma
Don Baylor hadn’t played a game in over ten years by that point.
Chili Davis
Fever Pitch Guy
Cone had only 10 strikeouts and he did it at home against a pathetic Expos team that was 33-55 at the time.
Boomer had only 11 strikeouts and he did it at home against a pathetic Twins team that lost 92 games that year.
No contest, that Yankees team Pedro faced won 125 games the year before and 109 games that season.
Fever Pitch Guy
Cone had only 10 strikeouts and he did it at home against an Expos team that was 33-55 at the time.
Wells had only 11 strikeouts and he did it at home against a Twins team that lost 92 games that year.
No contest, that Yankees team Pedro faced won 125 games the year before and 109 games that season.
Sid Bream Speed Demon
Who cares? Johnny Van Der Meer threw back-to-back no hitters, should he be in?
schellis 2
One game doesn’t equal hall of fame. Morris is one of the worst starters in the hall. There are plenty that are more deserving on the outside like schilling Kevin brown David cone Dave stieb
When it was a game.
Morris pitched in historic games and won. But is mentioned total accomplishments. Kat to me is a great announcer.
DarkSide830
kinda silly to put Smith in the same group as Baines imo.
NY_Yankee
I saw a lot of Cub Games on WGN and he blew a lot of games. Billy Wagner who has not been elected is far more deserving.
ralph1933
this
DarkSide830
Wagner is better, I’d be the first one to get on board with that sentiment, but I don’t think that Wagner is the low bar for allowing a guy to get in. In fact, I’m not even saying Lee should or shouldn’t be in, simply that his case is lightyears better than Baines’s.
slider32
Agreed, I think both should be in. Compared to Baine’s, there is a long list! Mattingly, Bell, Hunt, Grich, Lofton, Jones, and Hernandez were all better .
DarkSide830
Lofton in particular being left out is wild to me.
dodger1958
Slider. Drawing a blank. Which Jones and Hernandez?
JoeBrady
davidk19793 hours ago
So happy that Hodges gets in but Jim Kaat getting in over Dick Allen is laughable
==============================
IMO, Kaat was nowhere close to Allen. I’d pick Allen over Hodges & Oliva as well, but wouldn’t argue it much. But Kaat?
kje76
I will grant that Kaat did play with 3 of the Committee members, and probably got to know several execs as a Broadcaster. However, one of Kaat’s teammates was Mike Schmidt, who was Dick Allen’s loudest advocate!
Honestly, it’s hard to make too much of a sweeping generality out of Hodges, Kaat, or Oliva beating out Allen – they won by one vote over Allen, 12 votes each to 11,votes for Allen. Minoso was the only blowout winner with 14 of the possible 16 votes.
JerryBird
Didn’t Harold Baines’ buddies get him in? Sometimes it’s who you know, not what you did. The Hall of Fame is quickly becoming the Hall of Good Enough.
24ac
Yessssss!!! I love these results!!! Shame Dick Allen didn’t make it
TwinCities
Kaat goes in as a Twin, yes?
whiskeyted
Dick Allen getting snubbed is bs. makes me angry
Halo11Fan
Dick Allen not making it should make you angry.
Metsin777
Minoso is the only hoffer that should of been elected. They are watering down the hof at this point. Hope they don’t become as bad as basketball
Halo11Fan
Met, except for Allen, I agree with you 100 percent.
Metsin777
Ment out of everyone elected, didnt include Allen in my statement
mike127
Harold Baines is in——-that completely changed the bar. Career WAR less than Placido Polanco. (and many, many others)
hiflew
I am so sick of everyone denigrating Harold Baines. Harold Baines was a GREAT hitter. Not a good hitter, a great one. I don’t care what WAR says. Any stat that automatically deducts points based on the position you play is ridiculous. Was he a great defender? No, but he was mostly a DH anyway. From 1993-1997 Harold Baines played exactly ZERO games in the field and yet he has a dWAR of -5.0 in that timeframe. Someone care to explain that one? That’s worse than Palmeiro winning a GG despite not playing the position.
Apparently now everyone thinks that being a good hitter without homers or walks is mostly just luck. But Harold Baines could put the baseball where he wanted it to be a lot of the time. He “hit it where they ain’t.” He would hit .400 against the modern shift. But of course everyone would still say he sucked because he didn’t walk enough or something.
Jim Kaat and Harold Baines both had longevity. They both stayed around a LONG time to entertain the fans, Kaat was arguably the best fielding pitcher of all time (maybe 2nd best behind Maddux). Baines was the first DH that truly was elite.
But Kaat got wins and they don’t matter anymore. And Baines got hits instead of walks and they don’t matter anymore. I’m just glad the HOF still recognizes that maybe they do still matter to some of us.
DarkSide830
No one is dragging Baines, simply the fact that he isn’t a HoF. Baines put up pretty good numbers over a decent period of time and overall was a pretty good player and honestly isn’t even close to the worst player in the Hall, but the point being is his case is fairly weak compared to the average HoFer.
Y4L
There will be more players who amass 3000 hits. Baines had 2800+ hits but only a 38 WAR. He was a good player but certainly not HOFer imo. I’m not sure how they will deal with The Steroid Era down the road, but players have been cheating throughout baseball history. Pitchers cheated all of the time with spitballs and doctoring. Each ERA should be judged by their peers, not somebody who played 30+ years ago. Are pitchers who had higher spin rates before spider tack, and lower after, going to be judged differently also?
DarkSide830
I’ll say the same thing I’ve always said about this. As long as no one known to have cheated gets in I’m okay with it. Bonds, Clemens, etc haven’t been proven, and if their peers (this doesn’t count if you have the likes of McGuire, A-Rod, and Manny on the voting team, granted) believe they are worthy then I’ll accept it.
Halo11Fan
Bonds and Clemens have been proven. Their excuse was, I didn’t know I was taking PEDs. Which is complete BS.
That’s what they all say.
JoeBrady
hiflew2 hours ago
I am so sick of everyone denigrating Harold Baines. Harold Baines was a GREAT hitter.
================================
On Fangraphs wRC+, he was ranked #503. He averaged 1.8 bWAR/season, barely above replacement.
I still have my cards from the early ’80s. Do you who I don’t have? I don’t have Baines. Why? Because he was never more than a decent/good player. Allen’s WAR/650 was 6.2. Baines’ was 2.3. It is not even remotely close.
hiflew
Well since you didn’t save his baseball cards, I guess that proves me wrong.
hiflew
No one is dragging Baines? Please. Everyone has been dragging Baines since the moment he was elected. So what if he is a below average HOFer. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t belong. Approximately half of all players in the Hall are below the average HOFer.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
The guys who just miss the HOF are not pretty good players. They are great players. Everyone of these guys was a great player, some just maybe a little short of HOF standard.
JoeBrady
hiflew
Well since you didn’t save his baseball cards, I guess that proves me wrong.
=========================
That’s an anecdote. It is the facts that I supplied you with that prove you wrong.
But, FWIW, I study this quite a bit, and base my collection on it. I’m not 100%, but I’ve gotten a fair amount of non-obvious candidates correct. Baines wasn’t close.
slider32
All those championships mean nothing then, erase them all.!
schellis 2
It’s been watered down since Frankie Frisch got all his old team mates in.
DarkSide830
I’m the type of guy who tends to want to see a guy play or see big numbers, and while these guys dont all do that for me I see the validity. Kaat to me was so clearly deserving. Longevity combined with production is the winning formula, and Kaat had both.
NY_Yankee
I would add his Gold Gloves as well. Most for any pitcher.
Halo11Fan
So if it wasn’t for his gold gloves and ability to hold runners in he was likely an average pitcher who pitched a long time.
There is not much difference between him Frank Tanana and Tommy John.
hiflew
And Tommy John should be in the Hall too. Although I do find it funny that of Baseball Reference;s 10 most similar players, you only listed two of the three most similar that were NOT in the HOF. What about the 7 HOFers that B/R says he IS similar to?
RobM
Almost assuredly will make it in a future election.
Halo11Fan
So above average for a longtime? Not good, just above average.
If that’s your bar, then that’s fine.
DarkSide830
there’s no numeric formula, but id imagine mine is the same as many. if you had a short career it better have been darn good. if you were pretty good but not great you better have been able to sustain said production. 25 years, lots of wins (which I dont like using as a general measure of dominance but if you have nearly 300 you were usually a great pitcher), production in a variety of roles, durability, solid postseason work. he had basically one truly poor year in his 22 full in the Majors, and as NYY puts, the GGs add something too. some guys get in off a record or one skill more than others, Kaat however is a guy who mixes a lot of pretty good aspects into a great career.
Halo11Fan
I don’t even have a big problem with that.
It’s not anecdotal. Which so often is the case to support players being elected. If you have to get to anecdotal. like clutch, which is nerves supported by data, then you’ve lost me.
DarkSide830
the big debate is if one uses the stats as the criteria for election or as an indicator of success, therefore, showing one deserves election. I tend towards saying it’s an unnecessary distinction in almost all cases, but acknowledge the wisdom in how the eye test impacts the later criteria. I think there is a logic behind “x player passed the HoF eye test”, but it tends to differ by person and can be prone to issues of sample size. For example, Addie Joss and Sandy Koufax were guys who really didn’t meet conventional longevity requirements (Joss didn’t even get to the 10 year mark), but did enough and had reasons outside of their control forcing them off the field (Koufax injury, Joss his death from meningitis). That said, how far can you extend that? Jack McCaffery said such about Ryan Howard in voting for him recently, which just seems silly in my mind, but shows these discrepencies.
Halo11Fan
I saw Koufax. Man did he pass the eye test.
dodger1958
Define conventional longevity requirements as opposed to formal HOF rules.
DarkSide830
You need 10 years to be on the ballot traditionally. the rest is naturally up to interpretation, but im sure to most is a matter of just how well you were in the years you played.
dodger1958
Dark I am well aware of 10 years which Koufax clearly met. I was asking about the “conventional longevity requirements” which you contended Koufax did not meet (your statement). Again define the so called “longevity requirements”.
slider32
I saw Kaat, he was not the player that Sandy or Gibson, but the next tier He could still beat them.
JoeBrady
I actually purchased a couple of Kaat rookie cards, but never thought he was particularly good. He had two careers.
1959-72 he went 179-147, with a 112 ERA+, and 2 AS appearances. That’s good, but not nearly great.
1973-1983 he went 104-90, with a 101 ERA+, and one AS appearance. That’s about league average.
13 years as a good pitcher plus 11 years as an average pitcher, doesn’t make him one of the all-time greats.
tigerfan4ever
I went to the same high school as Jim Kaat (Zeeland, MI High School) and my parents went to the College (Hope College, Holland, MI) that he ended up attending. Congratulations to all six inductees!
dlw0906
Dick Allen gets the shaft here. I like Oliva but Allen was the better player-more power, better defender. Hodges the sentimental choice but the 50s, 60s and 70s shouldn’t be in the same group. Baeball in the 50s was quite a bit different in the 60s and 70s. There is a certain mythology built around Hodges: Brooklyn Dodger, Miracle Mets, tragic death at a young age…
He was a high character guy and a great defender. It’s nice to see both recognized but Allen was probably the best player up for induction today. My late dad’s favorite player though he was also very critical of him too.
Congratulation to the inductees. Great to see Buck O’Neil make it.
VonPurpleHayes
Dick Allen really deserves to be in there. Missed by 1 vote.
dodger1958
Hodges should have been in long long ago. At one time these players were all on the same Brooklyn team. Koufax, Snider, Jackie, Walt Alston, Campy, Hodges, and Drysdale. But they couldn’t only manage one ring.
Halo11Fan
Data does not support Hodges being in the hall of fame.
dodger1958
Disagree as do most on this thread.
Halo11Fan
Does a 120 OPS+ and a 43 WAR for a first baseman get you in the Hall? Three seasons with a WAR above 5.
It’s a really low bar.
dodger1958
No not a low bar. For some reason he has negative dwar. He was an above average first baseman.
gary7971
As a player Hodges doesn’t belong. Statistics aren’t everything, but statistically he doesn’t fare well when compared to other first basemen in the hall. Nor does he belong as a manager, in my opinion.. As a player plus manager I can see an argument for his getting in..
coyoterazor
He currently ranks 12 of the 24 first baseman in the hall based on homeruns. He was the premier 1st baseman in the 60’s and the only reason he didn’t have 10 more gold gloves is because the award was didnot exist at that time., He is also a world war 2 veteran who missed time early on. His enshrinement was well deserved and long overdue.
BlueSkies_LA
Fortunately no characters from Star Trek vote for the HOF.
DarkSide830
I’ve tended to afford the benefit of the doubt to pro-Hodges masses, but it does seem overblown supposedly how much of a snub he is. I do agree that 2B are underrepresented in the hall, but Hodges seems like a lower-end HoFer, which doesn’t necessarily preclude his election but simply makes me wonder why it’s always been considered such an atrocity when so many clearly better players arent in.
BlueSkies_LA
Someone called it an atrocity? Wow, I think I would have noticed that.
DarkSide830
Considering the number of people bothered by it and some of the reactions in this thread? I don’t think that’s too much in the way of hyperbole.
schellis 2
If tony Perez is a hall guy so is Hodges. I wouldn’t have voted for either but there are far worse players in the hall
BlueSkies_LA
One thing about these discussions, you can never have too much hyperbole.
coyoterazor
He was the best at his position during his playing years. Numbers aside, he well deserved enshrinement.
tigw
unless your fav team was playing was playing vs. him.
thickiedon
Did Buck make it solely based on his stewardship of the negro leagues?
Gwynning
Congrats to all! Well deserved enshrinements
Orioles Fan
Congratulations to Jim Kaat. Well deserved and his stats back it up. We will never see a pitcher pitch for that long and not including the wins. The only other thing I can say is “It’s about time “.
PutPeteinthehall
Fully agree. 25 years and a lot of them very productive. Glad this was righted while he’s still here.
TomToms
I agree with them all. Except Dick Allen should be in as well.
PutPeteinthehall
Again another true statement.
Allknowingone
I am a fan of all elected- very glad to see Minoso finally elected. I will say this- this group shows why they truly should have a “career” or “legacy” wing. All those inducted made a major mark beyond their playing careers- Hodges as Manager of the Miracle Mets, Kaat as a long time broadcaster and O’Neal as one of the premier sports ambassadors. It may be time to start recognizing the entire resume and contribution to the game.
Fever Pitch Guy
I just hope the baseball HOF doesn’t start inducting fans like the basketball HOF has already done.
rememberthecoop
The issue I have is we are giving too many chances to players. Look, if a player is a true hall of famer, it should be obvious. Oliva was an excellent hitter but he’s simply not a hall of famer. If he is, then so too should Mark Grace be one. Grace hit one point higher and was the better defensive player.
The occasional mistake like Jim Rice, Tony Perez and now Oliva wouldn’t be so bad, except it makes it easier for other very good – bit not great – players to make it in too. That is the main problem caused by having good players elected.
RobM
At least Oliva and Kaat can stand up on the stage and accept the honor as I’m not sure the BBWAA will elect anyone this January. The a-hooooole Schilling should be elected (you can no like him but also think he’s worthy), but enough of the media morality police will probably prevent him, yet, even if he is, the Hall no doubt wants other voices up on the stage so it’s not just Schilling’s show. David Ortiz has a shot although I suspect he’ll have to wait a ballot or three. I will “enjoy” the torturous logic used by the previously anti-PED crown to justify their votes.
Yankee Clipper
If Ortiz gets in, Bonds is a must…if Bonds is in, ARod is obvious (albeit a level below Bonds). Then we come to McGuire, then down to Sosa, not to mention the pitchers (Clemens, Petitte, etc.).
DarkSide830
I dont think its that simple, though Ortiz being in naturally leaves room for interpretation. its a matter of what you make of that survey that he was supposedly caught on. if I had a vote I wouldnt give it to him, but also acknowledge that if he gets 75 that I’d accept it. the rest? not so much.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
I am not sure. In talent, I rank them Bonds, AROD, Clemens, Ortiz, Sosa, McGwire, Pettitte.
But if Ortiz was only caught using PEDs during a season when there was no penalty, does that make it different than someone like AROD who was caught multiple times? I am not sure.
Part of me still thinks that they should be admitted with an asterick (Hall of Famer who also was caught cheating). And part says none of them deserve it. The tough part for me is that owners, GMs and managers knew about steroids and they have all been given a pass.
mikevm3
Let’s go Gil!
Misfit0620
As a Dodgers fan I’m so glad Gil finally got his just due
Halo11Fan
As a dodger fan you should be.
BlueSkies_LA
As a Dodger fan now and a Mets fan growing up, Hodges finally making it into the Hall makes me smile.
rememberthecoop
I’ve got nothing against the man, but what did he do to be deserving of the HoF? His numbers as a player don’t cut it and he wasn’t a great manager. So what was it?
rememberthecoop
Disregard this post. It was not meant for Hodges. My bad.
Y4L
Hopefully that opens the door for Tommy John, who was better than Kitty, imo
WAR 61.6
W 288
L 231
ERA 3.34
getright11
Gil Hodges, the pride of Princeton, Indiana.
dlw0906
They can finally add HOF to that blank space on his memorial beneath his statue after nearly 50 years.
tigw
sounds like Scully
Tdat1979
So glad that Buck O’neil got in. I think more Negro League players should be in.
scottbour
Remember these are the same people who voted Harold Baines. Nice player, nowhere near a HOF. The only way Baines should get into the HOF is by buying a ticket.
PutPeteinthehall
Baines aced the sportsmanship part of the game. Sometimes it’s really
undervalued by fans. This is why the cheaters aren’t in.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
But more than sportsmanship there is just the media like-ability factor. One reason why Jeff Kent is not in.
Doxie
Great additions , they nailed these selections.
Minoso was terrific in the Negro leagues , with Cleveland and Chicago , congratulations Minnie. Watched him in spring training in Tucson long ago as Cleveland star.
Katt , 282 wins , about time !!
Buck also from the Negro leagues and a Cub coach.
There are still players from the Negro leagues who deserve to be in the HOF…… I hope MLB will look back on the records of some of those wonderful men.
Hodges , what a solid member of the great Dodger teams, converted from catcher to firstbase since Campy was so great. Gil a super manager also.
The HOF restored my belief with these additions.
HalosHeavenJJ
Long, long, long overdue for Buck. The man brought baseball to so many. Wish he’d been alive to see it.
Orel Saxhiser
Buck O’Neil and Ron Santo both should have been enshrined the year before they died. Dick Allen, too.
Halo11Fan
Dick Allen hit the hardest ball I’ve ever seen hit. First it was a line drive that I thought the shortstop had a chance, then it was up the alley to tie the game, then it cleared the fence to win the game.
Talk about a two iron.
Orel Saxhiser
@Halo100fan, The first National League baseball I saw in person was a Bat Day doubleheader at Shea Stadium in 1968 between the Mets and the Phillies. Allen homered in each game, off Mets starters Al Jackson and Danny Frisella. He totally clobbered both; the one he hit off Jackson pulled to left, the Frisella one a moonshot to right-center at a time when power straightaway and to the opposite field was rare. It was unreal for a 10-year-old kid to see in the Year of the Pitcher.
User 2079935927
He hit a foul ball completely out of Anaheim Stadium off of Nolan Ryan. Power vs Power.
conconcruz u.
what about luis tian 229 win and Olmos 200 complete game
Y4L
How about David Cone? He was One and Done on the ballot in 2009. He deserved MUCH better.
WAR – 62.3
W – 194
L – 126
ERA – 3.46
K’s – 2668
DarkSide830
100% Cone is a victim of a low wins mark. He should and likely will be in eventually.
Yankee Clipper
I agree with you Y4L. I do believe he will be on the Players’ Era Committee ballot.
sox4ever
Wonder if this is how Bonds, Clemens, Arod, etc get in years and years from now
Logjammer D"Baggagecling
How did it take this long to induct Jim Kaat and Buck O’Neil? I don’t know enough to have an opinion on the others.
psychotic goldfish
Congratulations to all. This is a long-overdue honor to Hodges and Oliva. I would have voted for Dick Allen over Kaat and Miñoso, but they are fine selections.
Buck O’Neil is an interesting choice. Looking at his career statistics (or at least what is known of them) he isn’t a Hall of Fame player. He was good, but hardly great. What makes him great is his personality. He should go in as a contributor because he kept the Negro Leagues alive with his spirit and warmth. I only wish he were still alive. I would love to hear his induction speech.
slider32
These new additions while all deserving are just a distraction by the Hall for the PED players. The PED players are clearly better, and by looking at Victor Cruz the last 7 years are more deserving of being inducted into the Hall. End the madness.
DarkSide830
what is this Victor Cruz analogy you are using?
slider32
Nelson Cruz was busted with A-Rod in Biogenisis along with others. He let the majors in home runs and was the best DH in baseball the last 6 years. He proves that PEDs doesn’t make the player. My apolygys to Victor!
28rings
Arod got suspended for trying to get performance enhancing drugs that would not show up on the PED tests. what makes you think that Cruz (and a lot of other players) aren’t doing the same thing? once a cheater, always a cheater.
Halo11Fan
They are clearly better, and they tried to hide it by lying to Congress.
They knew it was cheating. No one considered greenies cheating. Use your common sense.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Once again you deserve a full Nelson for incorrectly calling him Victor.
64' Yanks
Finally Gil Hodges elected into the Hall of Fame! Hilda Chester would be screaming and ringing out that cowbell! The last hurrah for the Brooklyn Dodgers the Boys of Summer…I’m crying as I post. Lets not forget it was his game in the 55 World Series that helped bring the World Championship to Brooklyn. Only if Ebbets Field was still around!
paule
Yes Jim-41. And one more thing. Hodges got more votes from the writers than anyone who did not make the HOF.. I can’t find my analysis but Hodges finished ahead of a number of future Hall of Famers (including Snider) in many of the years they were on the ballot. And for the record, Dick Allen should have gotten in as well.
dougshawneee
According to Baseball Reference, Bud Fowler had a total of verified 343 professional at bats, and 83 games played.. 83 games played. Dick Allen had a career .912 OPS over a career of 15 years.. Fowler is in, Allen is still out. We live in a strange time….
DarkSide830
Fowler isnt in for the numbers, it’s a matter of the pioneering role he played in the game.
Orel Saxhiser
Do you have any idea who Bud Fowler is? He was born in 1858 and is the earliest documented African American to play organized professional baseball. He also played crucial roles in the sport as a manager and club manager. Dick Allen would probably be thrilled Folwer finally made it.
Suggestion: Instead of looking at stats and stating a poorly-drawn conclusion, why not take some time and find out what the person you’re trying to discredit did. All you had to do was google his name. Then maybe take the time to learn even more about him. Learning is not some kind of sin. Unfortunately, many people in this country think they know all they need to know once they get out of high school. Hysterical, because that’s when the real learning starts.
Yes, we live in strange times, but probably not for the reasons you think they’re strange.
User 2079935927
I was hoping Dick Allen would make it. I’ll never forget the cover of SI. Him in the dugout smoking a cigarette and juggling baseballs. A great player and a cool looking cat too.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
While Dick Allen was a great baseball player, there is nothing cool about lung cancer.
sweetg
Another thing baseball got wrong. Doing this after Buck o’neill has died . Pathetic. . They did same to Marvin Miller. This will probably happen with Clemens And bonds also..
MLB Top 100 Commenter
overtimeheroics.net/2021/12/01/buck-oneils-overdue…
In the final months of his life, Buck O’Neil refused to look back at his life with any sort of bitterness or angst about what could’ve been had be born in a different day. As he said:
“I wouldn’t trade my life for anybody’s. I’ve had so many blessings in my life. I don’t want people to be sad for me when I go. Be sad for the kids who die young. You shouldn’t feel sad for a man who lived his dream. You know what I always say? I was right on time.”
mike156
Hey, nice to see people arguing about baseball…instead of the business of baseball.
slider32
Agreed, I think both should be in. Compared to Baine’s, there is a long list! Mattingly, Bell, Hunt, Grich, Lofton, Jones, and Hernandez were all better .It just shows you that the best players don;t get into the hall of fame, it’s like your high school voting, It;s a popularity contest.
Vizionaire
too late!
Vizionaire
vote bods in!
Orel Saxhiser
News of the six newest members of the National Baseball Hall of Famers should bring joy to all baseball fans. It’s great for the game, and nothing is negative about it. To anyone unfamiliar with any of the six, there’s plenty of information available on the Internet.
Some fans think we now have a watered-down Hall of Fame. However, I feel the opposite, that the HOF is too exclusive. The first professional game was in 1869, which is 152 years ago. As of today, there are 339 Hall of Fame: 270 players, 10 umpires, 22 managers, and 37 executives. In my opinion, that’s a ridiculously tiny number. The number of “greats” who have made significant contributions to the game is far more extensive than that.
Pet peeve: Fans who claim folks already enshrined don’t deserve it. What happened to Harold Baines was a disgrace. When he was elected, people went out of their way to make him feel bad about one of the proudest moments of his life. Those people should be ashamed of themselves. When someone receives an honor such as that, isn’t it better to say “congratulations” and be happy for them?
PutPeteinthehall
Agreed 100 percent. Baines conduct as a player pushed his stats over the top. The ones without class are the ones knocking a guy that showed many younger players how the game should be played. These are the same “fans” that believe Chapman and Bauer are stars…..
Orel Saxhiser
@RJNarvick, there are more ways than one to get in. I’ve seen people say Don Sutton and Phil Niekro don’t belong, which I think is ridiculous. Both died not long ago. And both probably saw the disparaging comments over the years about their enshrinement. Not that it matters in the end, because once you’re in, you’re in.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
I understand your point and it is well taken. But guys like Baines and Sutton were undoubtedly ecstatic when they got it and probably never gave another thought to their detractors once they heard the good news.
JoeBrady
Baines didn’t deserve it. He wasn’t even close.
Baines career OPS= was 121.
Evans has a 127
R. Smith had a 137
Evans and Smith were better hitters, and much better fielders. Baines career bWAR/650 was 2.3. Guys like Bernie Williams was much better, and he won’t sniff the HOF. People don’t even know who Roy White is, and he has a higher bWAR and much higher bWAR/650.
I could think of 100 players better than Baines, without even having to research. There is nothing wrong with saying that.
retire21
Danny Murtaugh should have been inducted.
More WS wins than BCox.
Higher Win% than JTorre & TLarussa.
First All-Minority lineup.
WS wins were 2 of the biggest upsets in MLB history.
clrrogers
More watering down of the Hall of Fame. These players were all really good, but none of them are Hall of Fame worthy.
KGB
You are right, it’s not debatable. Your just wrong. And all the facts and HOF voters support me. But I’m sure the obvious truth will not change your mind.
David Barista
This was a great article and piece of content for your readers
Twins Fan '61
Obviously glad for ex-Twins Kaat and Oliva. Tony-O was a great player in a pitching-friendly era. He became a fine defender until his knee injuries.
Kaat was a fine durable pitcher who reinvented himself multiple times. He was a good hitter for a pitcher and a great fielder. Also, he has been and outstanding commentator for more than thirty years.
atmospherechanger
Buck O’Neill belongs in the Hall of Fame for “Highest Quality Human Beings”. He was an amazing man.
Orel Saxhiser
The voters got it wrong by not voting O’Neill in before he died. His speech would have been an amazing moment for the sport. I feel the same way on the wait for Minnie Minoso, Ron Santo, and now Dick Allen, who needs to be in.
Which reminds me: The year Nellie Fox missed by three votes in his last year on the writers’ ballot, I was working in a newspaper sports department where the sports editor was a Hall of Fame voter. When the results were announced that year, I distinctly remember him saying, “Is it Hall of Fame time, already? I forgot to send in my ballot.” Lots of wincing throughout the department. I remember that every time a slam-dunk Hall of Famer doesn’t get in unanimously.
Prunella Vulgaris
I knew Minnie personally. It’s painful to see that it’s too late for him to know that he got in. He would have been smiling joyfully from ear to ear.
desertbull
This is ridiculous. If you dont get in on the real ballot, too bad…so sad.
If Schilling doesnot get in but Katt does, that is a disgrace.
JoeBrady
Desertbull4 mins ago
This is ridiculous. If you dont get in on the real ballot, too bad
===============================
They aren’t real ballots. They are ballots by sports writers, some of whom know very little about baseball. In three years, Rolen went from 102 to 52.9. Rolen just didn’t suddenly add 50 HRs to his total. All that happened is that 40.7% of the idiot writers finally checked his stats and realized he was really good.
Same thing with Billy Wagner-11.1% to 46.4.
Same thing with Andruw Jones-7.5% to 33.9% in two years.
Simmons? When he was first up in 1994, 96.3% of the writers voted against him. In 2020, he gets 75% or more.
SGva
Your comment(s) are ridiculous. Kaat pitched over 4,500 innings, won 283 games often pitching for mediocre teams and, he completed 180 games! And he wasn’t even a big strike out pitcher, yet he was still a great pitcher. Yes, Great. Too bad you can’t see that. Review his career, bud.
tidybowlman
Can someone explain why Mini Minoso and Tony Oliva are Hall Of Famers?
JoeBrady
Oliva falls under the category of ‘great but short career’. He was one of the best in baseball but for injuries. After that, it is a matter of taste on quality v quantity. Some folks prefer decent players, who played for a long time, like Kaat & Baines. Some prefer All-stars, even if they didn’t play as long.
Minoso was a bit of everything. 7x AS, and 9x when you count the Negro Leagues. 3x GG, which would’ve been more had they introduced the award earlier. Overall, he was very close, but the thing that puts him over the top is that he was beloved. That counts for something. They said that when guys like Clemente & Cepeda came up, they didn’t want to be like Minoso, they wanted to be Minoso.
That said, I don’t think either of them were as good as Allen. Allen is one of the best hitters ever.
Orel Saxhiser
@JoeBrady, thanks for doing tidybowlman’s research. It’s odd, though. Ol’ tidy’s on the Internet, which has a ton of info on both men. All it takes is a little effort.
I was a longtime advocate of Minoso getting in. My Red Sox fan father saw him play quite a bit and sang his virtues as much as any opposing player, which got me interested. I didn’t see Oliva until I became a baseball fan in 1968. A joy to watch.
As you stated, different people have their preferences. That doesn’t mean there’s one set way to get in. Koufax had five great years. Sutton wasn’t nearly as great as prime Koufax yet had a long period of excellence that resulted in 323 wins. Two completely different careers, yet both Hall of Famers.
‘
JoeBrady
Thanks, but not everyone is built for research. You’ve seen my arguments with other RS fans in here. Some of this stuff is complicated. But some fans can’t see beyond the back of a baseball card.
Hodges missed the better part of four years due to the war.
Hodges probably missed out on 6 GG awards, since they were invented yet.
Oliva wasn’t just a great hitter, he was a great fielder until he got hurt.
Minoso not only spent some time in the Negro Leagues, he also got HBP pitch an awful lot. Maybe because he crowded the plate, maybe because some people disliked his background.
Maybe some of Allen’s antics were publicized because he was black. If I were Allen, maybe the newspapers would treat me like the eccentric kid that I am.
Kaat made the HOF for no other reason than he spent 8 years as a #4/#5 pitcher, going 48-50, with a 4.08 ERA and an weak OPS of 91. Without that long period of below-average production, he is nothing more than a decent #2 pitcher.
bucsfan0004
If Harold Baines is the bar, then they are HOFers. Every player that got in, including the players you mentioned, were better than him.
Jack Marshall
Gil Hodges was simply not a Hall of Fame-level player. Look at his similarity scores: not a HOF-er among them. This was Boys of Summer nostalgia chic.
Orel Saxhiser
He’s a Hall of Famer and your opinion doesn’t change things. Why not be happy for the late Gil Hodges and his family?
Robertowannabe
I would assume that he got in not only for some of the things that he did with the players but also managing the Mets to the WS Title.
NostraThomas
I will never disparage someone being recognized for their accomplishments and legacy.
This is a celebration of the game. Just to be in a HOF discussion as an athlete is a great honor. Sincere congratulations to all and their families.
jessaumodesto
This is bull crap! Where is Sosa? Where is Macgeire? Where is Bonds? Where is Weiss!!!????
Bright Side
With respect to the other candidates who were before my time, I’m happy to finally see Kaat, Oliva, Hodges and Minoso get in to the Hall. Kaat and Oliva’s careers were derailed by injuries. Hodges died suddenly and unexpectedly right before the 1972 season. Others that should belong: Tommy John, Thurman Munson, Dick Allen, Bernie Williams, Dwight Evans and Fred Lynn (the last two were far better players than Jim Rice) come to mind. Ron Guidry should be considered as a quality over quantity candidate.
jessaumodesto
What about Ty Cobb?
Orel Saxhiser
@Bright Side, Great stuff. It’s interesting how you’ve split the difference between Yankees and Red Sox. Now you’ll have both sides hating on you.
From my boyhood, I’ll add Reggie Smith, Luis Tiant, and Ken Boyer. What’s your view on Albert Belle? Short career but 10 solid seasons with five Top Ten MVP finishes in six years. Some crazy numbers. Just don’t go trick-or-treating at his house.
DarkSide830
Tiant, perhaps more than anyone mentioned in this comment section save maybe McGriff, certainly deserves to get in.
JoeBrady
Belle only has a career 40.1, and some suspect him of PEDs.
Boyer deserves it, but Tiant is borderline, but no one in the world would want Kaat starting a game over Tiant.
Reggie Smith is the jewel in there. Smith’s career OPS+ is 137.. That’s better than the current marginal guys like Puckett (124), Dawson (119), Gwynn (132), or Raines (13), and only slightly below Vlad (140). And Reggie is a better fielder than any of them except maybe Dawson. His career fWAR is higher on average, despite playing fewer games. His bWAR/650 is 5.3, and none of guys I mentioned had a bWAR/650 any higher than 4.4.
In short, he is a good bit better than any of them. I think the HOF writers have an issue with judging players that that have very good bats + very good gloves, aka Smith, Grich, Trammell, etc.
gregorydefelice
The fact that Pete Rose isn’t in there makes all selections a joke. Greatest hitter of all time.
Orel Saxhiser
A. Pete Rose is ineligible for something he himself did. It is out of the voters’ hands.
B. He is no way near the greatest hitter of all time. Why would you think that?
gregorydefelice
Ok who is then? The Hall of Fame is a fraud. People who never played the game voting guy in. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire brought the game back and deserve it too.
BlueSkies_LA
“Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
MLB Top 100 Commenter
You think Pete Rose was a “greater” hitter than Hank Aaron, Willie Mays, Ted Williams and Babe Ruth. Nah. Not to mention the “betting on baseball” thing.
Robertowannabe
Also not to mention he has no remorse for the “betting on baseball” thing.
Joseph Gonzalez
I used to love how on Yankee telecasts when kaat would joke about no hitters. “The farthest I took a no hitter was a 1 1/3 innings” lmao
Steve9955
As the HOF continues its transformation to the Hall of Very Good Players.
SGva
Too late for me to peruse all the comments right now so I apologize if I’m repeating other comments. I became a huge baseball fan in 1966 at age 12. It is unbelievable it took so long for both Kaat and Oliva to get into the Hall. Oliva was an elite hitter during his entire career. I’ve never understood why he was neglected so long. Kaat not only pitched for years and years but he also completed a high percentage of his starts. Not a huge strikeout pitcher but geez, he was always an elite pitcher. Thanks goodness they finally got these two right. The others deserve their election, too, but Kaat and Oliva are at the top of my mind tonight. Congrats to all!!
dlw0906
SGva as someone who actually saw Kaat and Oliva in their prime I will take your words more seriously than those who did not. I saw both play on TV in their latter years. People don’t realize how dominant of team the Twins were for much of the 60s, particularly 1965-70. It could’ve just as easily been them in the ’67 series. Oliva and Kaat were a big part of those teams. Kaat then delivered back to back 20 win seasons in his mid-30s.
DodgerOK
This is ridiculous. Did their careers suddenly improve after all these years? The HOF should be for the greatest; not the very good.
BlueSkies_LA
“Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”
619bird
Kaat should’ve been in a long time ago.
Apologies if some Players collected a paycheck from 38-44 years old and teams allowed him to play for them. lol that the players fault? I mean that’s so 70’s and 80’s. He must have not been woke enough to hang it up and retire to his chateau and live his dying days in exile.
I’m glad he got in and congrats to the others.
PeoriaCardFan
You are absolutely right. Katt should have been in a long time ago. 283 wins as a lefty. Only seven left handers has more wins. Add in his 17 saves and he reaches the magic 300 number. Plus, 16 gold gloves. And that is six-teen consecutive gold cloves. Kitty does not have to take a back seat to anyone.
miltpappas
The Hall of Fame isn’t even relevant anymore. It’s akin to the ‘win a trophy’ generation we have to deal with nowadays. Have enough people lobby for you, win 200 games or hit 300 homers and people cry that you belong in the Hall. Minnie Minoso? Please. Where are Mattingly, Dwight Evans (or for that matter, Darrell Evans?) or even Roger Maris who deserves to be in more than guys like Harold Baines. The thing is a joke. And wait until the social media generation have a chance and you’ll see hordes of steroid-using cheaters get in.
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
And how about Jeff Kent? Compare his career numbers to Joe Morgan’s. have no issue with Morgan being in the HOF, however, Kent belongs there, too.
As an aside, Dick Allen getting snubbed by a single vote for the second time is a travesty. Like Crime Dog, one of the most feared hitters in his time. BTW, an equal travesty that Fred McGriff is still on the outside looking in.
tstats
We can’t erase the roiders from history thus baseball should accept them. Put an asterisk but let them into the hall. Bonds and Clemens and ARod and BigMac changed baseball. Would you take the spitballers and the scuff ballers out?
dlw0906
Frankie Frisch’s ghost would like a word with you Milt about HOF irrelevancy. His reign over the then Veteran’s Committee and the “Frisch 5” a half century ago brought some real beauts into the so-called “hallowed halls” of Cooperstown. The group inducted yesterday were more than deserving. All elite players of their era. Nobody wanted to face Oliva in his prime. Up there with Yaz and Frank Robinson for sure. Minoso had a helluva run in the 50s for a usually second division Chisox team. Hodges was arguably the dominant NL 1B of his era at-bat and in the field. Kaat won 20+ 3x imcluding back-to-back seasons in his mid-30s, and win 14+ 8x. Not a sexy pick but the numbers add up for a prime than ran about 15 years.
Buck O’Neil was a national treasure, enough said.
The myth is all the greatest players played pre or up to the 50s. Actually, there have been more and better players since the 50s they just lack the mythology and fanboys of those earlier eras. Eras when not everyone could play. That changed after 1948 and even further into the 50s and 60s when non-US players like Oliva and Minoso started taking the field.
Lyman Bostock
These selections are ridiculous
Patrick OKennedy
Career WAR
Minoso 53.8
Kaat 50.5
Allen 58.7
Hodges 43.9
Oliva 43.0
Lou Whitaker 75.1
NY_Yankee
Not counting Bonds and Clemens Hodges got the highest percentage of writers votes ( over 60%) who until yesterday was not enshrined in the Hall of Fame. As for Whittaker I agree he deserves it. Not counting steroid users here are he most deserving of election. Number one who should be in is not: McGriff. 2: Whittaker. 3: Tommy John. 4: Curt Schilling. 5:,Dick Allen.
tstats
Tommy should be in as well as Schilling. Stop the politics and let Curt in!!!
Lyman Bostock
Where’s Kenny Lofton? 68.4 WAR
dlw0906
Completely different eras. It’s comparing apples to oranges. The 60s and 70s is considered a second dead ball era. The game was much more offensive and high scoring during Whitaker’s time. That all being said, Lou deserves to be in the HOF.
BlueSkies_LA
So many goofy WAR stats addicts. These stats didn’t even exist nor did the metrics that are used to calculate them back in the day when these players were in the game, so these historical WAR stats are reconstructions. To add another degree of ridiculousness of quoting it in this context, the actual criteria for election to the Hall don’t include any stats at all, so using them as a basis for an argument is totally pointless.
dodger1958
Seems to me Hodges got shortchanged in dWAR.
“Many baseball historians consider Gil Hodges the best first baseman of his era and possibly the best ever.
In important defensive categories for first basemen (putouts, assists, double plays, and fielding percentage), Gil excelled. He led the National league three times in putouts with 10 top-10 finishes; led the league three times in assists with 10 top-ten finishes; led the league four times in double plays with 12 top-10 finishes; and led the league three times in fielding percentage with 11 top-ten finishes. He also did well in numerous range factor categories; and he won three Gold Glove awards (the award wasn’t created until the last years of Gil’s career. Had it existed earlier, he would have won many more).
Other notable defensive achievements: His 1,614 career double plays places him behind only Charlie Grimm (1733) in National League history. His 1,281 career assists rank second in National League history to Fred Tenney’s 1,363, and trail only Ed Konetchy’s 1,292 among all right-handed first basemen…”
Backup Catcher to the Backup Catcher
The HOF has been watered down considerably the past few years. Somewhat like the earliest days when players were inducted with, at best, so so numbers. I guess they needed to get a lot of people inducted back then so fans would actually have a reason to go to Cooperstown.
NY_Yankee
Actually yes and no. Yes because they want former living players to be there for the induction ceremony, but no because they also elect obscure people like Fowler who only historians are familiar with, as well as those who slipped through the cracks like Hodges, who a majority of writers felt deserved induction. I would also note that while undeserving players like Baines are put in, it gives another chance to a McGriff who obviously deserved election years ago:
dmarcus15
It’s a shame the HOF didn’t I ductuct O’Neil when he was alive he was such a great ambassador for the game and truly a nice person.
baseballpun
Who the hell were the three people who still didn’t vote for O’Neil?
tstats
I like that Jamie Jarrin gets a vote for the HOF
hyraxwithaflamethrower
Hard to believe some of those guys weren’t in there already.
Robertowannabe
Man, Such angst over who did or did not make he HOF as voted by a couple of different veterans committees. The names of those who did make the Hall and those who did not will not alter the lives of anyone other than those relatives of those players. To the rest of us, nothing else will change today based on the decisions made by those two committees. Lighten up a little people. Life is way to short to be that invested in HOF selections.
Paulie Walnuts
Abolish the Veterans Committee.
They let these scrubs in. They let Harold Baines in.
NY_Yankee
I could live with changing the rules for the Veterans Committee when it comes to MLB players. Here is my idea: You must have gotten 50.1-% of the writers vote in one election to be eligible. This would prevent someone like Hodges or the most notorious case Nellie Fox who got over 74% at f the writers vote but who had to wait for a Veterans Committee to put him in, from getting screwed and keep out the Baines and Lee Smith types.
dlw0906
Paulie I suggest you google frankie frisch veterans committee. You are over half century late about scrubs getting in. There were no scrubs voted in yesterday but there sure in the hell were from 1970-1976 or so.
It’s a museum of baseball history. It’s flaws are inherent in the foundation of creation and also ineveitable. The BBWA voters of the past really weren’t geniuses either.
bigtwinsfan14
All around Twins Territory, the people are dancing! Finally!!! Congratulations to Tony O, Jim Kaat and Bud Fowler (played for Stillwater, MN in the 1890s)!
sonofkenny
Dick Allen and Jim Kaat both deserve entry. Both were likely to get in anyway. I think it is a good outcome to have Kaat and Oliva get in while they can enjoy the accolades (both 83 years old). Allen’s day will come.
joew
still horrible that some from the ‘steroid’ era have been pushed aside.
if that is going to happen remove or ban those from the 90’s early 00’s. chances are a bunch of them would fall in to the category of Clemens Bonds, etc.
slider32
This was the whole idea of the Hall of Fame, but these guys in and none of the real great players!
Joseph Gonzalez
I still don’t get why Morris is in. His career era is almost 4 and let’s face it he got in based off one historic game
FatChance65
Chico Escuela got snubbed again!
Bob333
Dick Allen snubbed again what a DISGRACE much better player than Jim Kaat and Tony Oliva
Hexbreaker
It’s the Hall of FAME… not the Hall of Greatness.
♪
I think it’s been understood by most to be a museum that celebrates the best players, managers, executives, etc…No doubt there are quite a few inductees who aren’t considered famous.
‘Hall of Greatness’ doesn’t have the same ring to it.
♪
Dick Allen is 19th all-time in OPS+ among MLB players.
Joseph Gonzalez
Having a “hall of fame moments” for guys like jack morris would solve a lot of problems. This way he’s in the hall without having the undeserved plaque that he has. You could have video clips of the moment and whatnot for visitors to see
slider32
This was the whole idea of the Hall of Fame, but these guys in and none of the real great players!
Johnmac94
Joke. At this point, I am the only one not in the “hall”, I did play in the FL First Coast League!!!???
Johnmac94
Celerino Sanchez GAVE HIS LIFE playing 3rd for the Yankees; letting hot liners hit him in the chest then picking the ball up and throwing the runner out, died OF A HEART ATTACK at age 48…, never even a thought to any of the FAKE NEWS “people”.
Johnmac94
you can check the game tapes from 1972, Frank Messer said several times: “He’s gonna die of a heart attack doing that…”.
lumber and lighting
Richie and Dick Allen raked.He was 1 of the most feared hitters in baseball.Jim Rice syndrome?No respect from writers.Allen should of been in yrs ago.Writers suck at voting!Writers have long memories and the fish hacks got even with players who were unapproachable to them during their careers.
lumber and lighting
250-300 wins your in.500 hrs your in.3000 hits your in.These thresholds were unquestioned before steroids.Writers killed my generation of great players with there myopic ethics.From Ty Cobb to Tom Seaver they had speed cross tops in the freaking dugouts.Early nineteen hundreds they were doing Coke like the 80’s.Babe Ruth couldn’t sleep unless he had 2 ladies with him.Hall of Fame isn’t Sunday School teachers playing a game.Baseball on the field should be the only thing judged.Show me 1 betting slip we’re Pete Rose bet against the Reds.Hall of Fame is between 2 lines against strong tough smart men.Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa SAVED baseball.Writers are wrong for the hall induction.You trust a guy who never swung a bat or threw a fast lh batter out at 1rst or threw out a runner tagging for 3rd?I was born in the 50’s and Rose,Bonds,Clemons,Palmiero,McGwire,Sosa were feared and if you didn’t you were a fool.Those guys are my era and Bonds was the greatest I ever seen.Every baseball player who ever played cheated at 1 thing or another.They openly gambled with each other before and during gms.But Rose is the scumbag.Dude was an AllStar at 5 positions and he’s the hit king.The old timers did it all because they were absolutely the most popular gm in America.Women drugs booze during proabition gambling cheating even murder.Holy then thous should ck themselves and watch a gm.
Tomas7
I agree with a lot what you say , but one area I beg to differ( my opinion only) is that I would have liked to have seen what Barry Bonds would have done playing in Candlestick like the years Willie Mays did, and off the “juice” to see what his numbers would have been then, possibly still great but makes one wonder.
♪
‘Saving the game’ under false pretenses has hurt MLB’s popularity long-term and fans’ trust.
The truth was always going to come out with such widespread cheating.
sergefunction
Been researching Bud Fowler’s 1800’s newspaper mentions.
Oh my. He was GREAT, and for a long period. He was relegated to the low minors and town base ball circuits due to color, that was clear.
He later barnstormed with his own teams. Super well-regarded. I never read his name until this week.
Tomas7
I am glad that Minnie Minoso Finn ally made it, great guy and ball player.
AZ1998
HoF correcting some life-long wrongs with this one, which is great to see. I hope this changes a lot. No more should all-time greats, and players that impacted the game and were great humans like Minnie Minoso, have to be elected posthumously. He should be celebrating with us and elected a long time ago, and same goes for Dick Allen. My fix to the baseball HoF is to grant the Commissioner and owners with executive power to elect those over a certain age. Minoso would have been elected a long time ago. I understand that time changes our perspective on things, but it’s about time that we set the precedent to elect players that have had a profound impact on people and the game. And if the writers can’t seem to agree on it we need MLB to do the right thing. Baseball is for the fans, make the fans happy.
AZ1998
The Hall of Fame should be a celebration of baseball. Some say it has become watered down, but how can you enjoy baseball yet talk down on all the players who have made it great all these years?? All of these guys elected are deserving, and there are even more that are deserving. Let’s celebrate it, and make sure players like Minoso and Allen in the future get in before they are gone.
lautrec
The so called hall of fame. Why not call it what it really is, The baseball hall of people we writers think are worthy based on our hypocritical sense of morality and sometimes their baseball achievements. Schilling not getting elected because he’s not politically correct enough. What a joke.
Win Cor
When I was a kid. I knew these guys were legends and Hall of famers…That’s how behind schedule they are…Now they’ve robbed another generation of their heroes being in the Hall. Fix the issue now!