The MLB lockout has been ongoing for nearly a month, with the accompanying transactions freeze halting essentially all major league activity. The league and the MLB Players Association aren’t expected to discuss the game’s core economics issues — the most contentious in collective bargaining — until sometime after the New Year.
A few prominent players — each of whom assumes an active role within the MLBPA — recently appeared on the Chris Rose Rotation (YouTube link via Jomboy Media) to discuss the current state of talks (or lack thereof). Yankees reliever Zack Britton, Rangers middle infielder Marcus Semien and White Sox starter Lucas Giolito all expressed some frustration with the lack of progress to date.
Not surprisingly, the players argued MLB has yet to seriously engage in negotiations. “We feel like we’ve offered some good proposals,” Britton said. “And really we didn’t get anything from their end in Dallas (in negotiations during the final few days of November).”
Semien and Giolito largely echoed that sentiment. The former pointed out that MLB could’ve continued to negotiate rather than locking the players out upon the expiration of the previous collective bargaining agreement. The latter plainly stated that the MLBPA was hoping to return to the table as soon as possible. “We’re here, we’re ready to negotiate,” Giolito told Rose. “We’re pretty much waiting on MLB. We’ve made our proposals, we’ve made multiple proposals right before they decided to lock us out. They said no, they weren’t interested at the time. … We’re not going to negotiate against ourselves. It takes two to tango.”
Of course, there’s been similar rhetoric on the part of MLB. At the time the league locked the players out, commissioner Rob Manfred told reporters that MLB “candidly … didn’t feel that sense of pressure on the other side” and added it was the league’s desire to “get back to the table as quickly as we can.” Very little has happened in the nearly four weeks since, although it’s not clear whether continued discussions on core economics would’ve done much regardless. Evan Drellich of the Athletic wrote a few weeks ago that December negotiations would have likely entailed the parties “saying the same things to each other over and over.”
The most pressing issues in talks — the competitive balance tax, the service time structure, salaries for early-career players, etc. — have been discussed ad nauseam in recent weeks. While speaking with Rose, each of Britton, Semien and Giolito argued that the union was more concerned than the league is with competitive balance. “We want every team to be trying to win year-in and year-out,” Britton said. “We think that’s fair to the fanbases and that’s what we want. We’re going to continue to send that message.” Giolito took a similar tack, alluding to clubs that have slashed their MLB payrolls during rebuilds. “We want thirty teams competing, trying to field the best possible players so that the game is more competitive. That’s kind of what we are stressing with our proposals: let’s make the game better for everybody, number one being the fans.”
Some lower-payroll clubs have of course managed to consistently remain successful in spite of budgetary limitations. Yet it’s clear that the players took issue with clubs that have largely chosen to sit out free agency while orchestrating massive organizational overhauls. Britton pointed to his former team, the Orioles, as one such club of concern, although he cautioned that the Baltimore franchise was merely one of a few examples of what the players feel to be a widespread problem.
Given the lack of movement to date, is it still possible for a new deal to be reached without games being interrupted? Semien expressed optimism on the union’s behalf about avoiding interruptions to Spring Training, although he unsurprisingly noted that “January is a huge month.” That said, all three players reiterated they didn’t feel any time pressure to meaningfully move off their current goals.
Britton and Giolito each pointed to last year’s pandemic freeze as a potential strengthening factor for the union. That wasn’t technically a work stoppage, as the game was paused due to national emergency. Yet the return-to-play discussions proved contentious, with the MLBPA eventually filing a grievance alleging that MLB didn’t negotiate in good faith to play as many games as possible last year during a season with essentially zero gate revenue.
“(Waiting it out) is part of the process right now,” Giolito said. “ Going through the pandemic year, kind of fighting for what we wanted as players, really coming together, communicating well, that puts us in a good position now. … Even if things are delayed a little bit, we’re here, we’re ready to negotiate. We’re going to keep pushing for getting a season going as soon as possible.“
Get to the table. Talking with reporters instead of the other side, is nothing more than posturing. That goes for players and owners both.
The players have expressed willingness to be at that table. The owners locked the players out. Its pretty clear who is at fault for the lack of negotiations.
Maybe it’s time to think outside the box – and have the players side represented by people who are actually good at negotiating. Somebody like Boras Corporation.
What’s good for the players is good for the player’s agents. And visa versa.
Having ex-Major League players be negotiators asking instead of demanding is a losing idea from the start. Like dolphins swimming with sharks.
Get an agent who is a shark, for the players union itself. Maybe then we’ll see some positive results sometime soon.
The players representative at the negotiating table is one of the best. Tony isn’t doing it anymore.
Here’s some out of the box thinking. Both sides should agree to binding arbitration if they are unable to work out a CBA before a date certain, say the end of January. That would focus everyone’s mind on coming to a solution in a way that doesn’t involve playing games of chicken.
@PadsFans – Not good enough. They are weak fish compared to shark businessmen. Players need much better representation.
@Blueskies, I like that (binding arbitration). It would ensure that both sides negotiate in good faith. I am under the impression that the owners aren’t necessarily negotiating in good faith (players union??). Binding arb would be a clear sign to the fans that the game will go on!!
Both the players and owners are familiar with binding arbitration, a process that is already baked into baseball. Knowing how it works I suspect neither side would want their issues to be resolved by a third party, so agreeing to it as a last resort would light a fire under both of them. I doubt either side would agree to it though, and not especially ownership. Their explicitly stated strategy is to put pressure on the union, and that’s a very bad way to start a negotiation that requires both sides to end up in the same place in the end. The next step will be an effort at blame-shifting, almost without question, because that’s how everything works now.
I see a delay to the season.
Agreed. The owners won’t mind slicing two months and 55 or so games off the season, since the those games have to compete with the NBA and NHL playoffs.
I expect talks to get serious after a spring training stocked with scabs — a/k/a replacement players — they settle on a new deal April 15, spring training starts a week after that and the regular season Memorial Day weekend.
This way, by clawing back 1/3 of a year’s salary from each player, MLB thinks it will have taught its players a lesson.
“The owners won’t mind slicing two months and 55 or so games off the season,……”
@ ctyank7;
Do you have any idea of not just the revenue they’d lose from gate receipts and TV, but from fans that will be upset and will take a while before following (and paying to see) games in 2022?
As for the players, they don’t want this to carry into the season – they’ll be getting pro-rated salaries. And after finally getting to a full season in 2021 following the shortened 2020 season, they’ll be facing another shortened season and 2023 could be another injury nightmare as 2021 was.
The revenue the owners are most worried about losing is TV money. It makes up 60-70% of the revenue of each team.
IMHO, you are also correct in assuming that fans will not spend at the same pace if this extends into the regular season. Attendance per game dropped 20% in 1995 after the labor situation in 1994. I think it will be worse this time if it comes to that.
As @Lefty said, players are on guaranteed salaries and Federal Labor Law says that their contract is to be paid according to the CBA at the time they signed that contract, They have to paid that full salary regardless of the length of the season.. The commissioner can set any number of games that he wants as the full season and then players are paid 100% of their contracts for that season. So, they will get paid 100% of their contract regardless of how many games are played.
The exception is if they agree to get paid less. They didn’t when they went on strike in 1994. The ones interviewed so far this offseason have said they won’t now. I see no reason why they would agree to less than what they are owed since it was the owners that locked them out and walked away from the negotiating table.
The owners start losing money on February 26th if there are no spring training games to televise. The contracts with the networks say that they owners don’t get paid if there are scabs playing.
The owners can’t “claw back” any of a players salary regardless of how many games are played. Its a guaranteed contract. 1 game, 100 games, 162 games. Doesn’t matter how many, the players get paid 100% of their salaries.
In 2020 the players agreed to prorated salaries and the owners didn’t negotiate the number of games in good faith. That case has not gone to binding arbitration yet, but it will. Its one more HUGE card in the players hands.
@ outinleftfield;
1. Franchises make little money televising or playing Spring Training games. If anything, they get advertising for the coming season.
“The owners can’t “claw back” any of a players salary regardless of how many games are played. Its a guaranteed contract. 1 game, 100 games, 162 games. Doesn’t matter how many, the players get paid 100% of their salaries.”
2. No matter how your phrase it, that’s exactly what happened in 2020.
If you think that the players union can refuse to agree to a new CBA and don’t play, but they’ll get their full salaries – all I can say is that I’ve never seen that in any industry.
3. Everything will be settled. They might start Spring Training a week or two late.
outinleftfield that’s complete nonsense. Who on earth fed you the foolishness that the owners have to pay 100% salary for a 50% season? That’s idiocy.. It depends entirely what’s negotiated in the collective agreement. The Uniform Player Contract itself is negotiated in the collective agreement. If the players can’t negotiate 100% salary for a shortened season, which they would never be able to, they won’t receive it. Simple as that. Quit spreading nonsense, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
BS @samuel. You need to see what the new National TV contracts call for. All the teams share that revenue equally. All teams start losing money on February 26th if those games are not televised.
The PLAYERS had to agree to give up part of their salaries in 2020 and they did it because of COVID. That is not the case during a LOCKOUT. The players can 100% refuse to give up a dime of a guaranteed contract in the new CBA and they have already said that they will.
All you have to do is look to the lack labor stoppage in baseball to see players that got paid 100% of their contracts.
Its called federal labor law. Learn it.
Out in Left Field: Samuel criticizes like he knows everything, but mostly just inserts opinions when facts would suffice.
This is from CBS. Feel free to post anything that suggests that CBS is wrong.
“…though they are not paid their base salary should the lockout extend into the regular season (players are only paid during the season).”
The internet is 13 year old kids pretending to be adults, telling us to learn ‘federal law’. Tell us son, which federal statute you think mandates paying full season salaries for a season truncated by a work stoppage. But first, you’ll have to google ‘statute’ and ‘truncate’ I suspect.
How long have you been practicing labor law, Dumbest Screen Name Ever? You haven’t? Then stop talking about thing s you don’t understand.
@sammy You are wrong on the first two points. Lets hope you are right on the third.
When you include the new national TV contracts, the league is set to be making $350 million for spring training games. That is not an insubstantial amount of money. There are 300 spring training games that are scheduled to be televised either nationally, locally, or via streaming.
The owners didn’t claw back players salary in 2020. The players agreed to take a prorated portion of their salaries because of an unprecedented situation, COVID. They could have stood their ground and insisted on 100% of their salaries. That was their right under the law. But instead they did what was best for the game and agreed to take less.
As @lefty less than eloquently said, the players filed a federal labor law grievance against the owners for shortening the 2020 season so much and they have put that on hold as a Sword of Damocles over the owners head if they should try to pull anything of that kind in the CBA. Since they were locked out, it is highly doubtful that the players would agree to take one cent less than they are contractually owed.
As long as they are not on strike, the players are paid their salary for the season, period. It doesn’t matter if that season is 62 games of 162 games. CBS is wrong on that point.
Hey that’s a clever put down marcfrombrooklyn. Were you able to think that up yourself or did the other 13 year old help you? One doesn’t need to practice law long to know the saying that he who asserts proves. I’m not the one asserting that there is an imaginary federal law that says that the players will get 100% of their salaries no matter how few games are played.
It’s telling that the players’ side here seems to be led by 13 year olds with imaginary statutes and when they’re asked to identify the statute another 13 year old account comes along with 13 year old insults.
Pads fan, why don’t you tell us about the imaginary federal law that requires the owners to pay 100% salaries for shortened seasons. Instead of just quoting a 13 year old child blowing smoke out his shorts on MLBTR, you should be able to point us to this ‘federal law’. After all, statutes are all online. So please point us to this law, rather than relying on the make-believe authority of a 13 year old on the internet.
How do you know what the TV contracts stipulate?
Funny stuff. Does the same apply to about a dozen states and draconian regulations they have been imposing upon the citizenry unfortunate enough to live (for now) within them?
maybe think about applying those not so well thought out rules more equally, instead of just 1 area, which some people with narrow trains of thought cannot/will not do.
Pads Fans and outinleftfield = same guy with multiple accounts
The players have a valid point in terms of the overall increases in MLB not maintaining commensurate increases with salary.
I typically do not advocate for players simply requesting higher salaries, but owners have been notably shying away from spending money, ie: ‘22 payrolls of:
Cleveland Baseball Team $26M;
Orioles @ ~$29M;
Pirates @ ~$35M;
Miami @ $59 M
AZ @ $66M
Seattle, MN, Oak @ $71M
Rays @ ~$79M;
It’s absurd. Tanking has been too profitable a business and several of these teams also receive revenue sharing that pay large portions of salaries altogether.
We even see it with the Yankees whose payroll is the same as 2005 ($205M), yet they’ve tripled their revenue ($679M). This is why people don’t side with the owners; this is why players are so comfortable asking for more and more; and this is why the owners cannot get their hooks into limiting spending with the Union.
A floor doesn’t solve this, a cap certainly doesn’t. Penalizing the tanking teams does, instead of giving them a double-rewards card for losing.
none of these numbers are going to be that low by opening day…
They won’t be much higher, brother. The point is that’s as a starting point, most of these teams are lucky if the touch $100M. The Rays are only as high as they are because of their agreement with Franco.
It’s a new MO for the owners, otherwise I’d completely agree.
@ Yankee Clipper;
Franco is not getting a large raise this year – and surely not enough to propel the Rays payroll up to any degree.
You’re totally lost on finances.
Samuel, he (Franco) signed an extension last year. Again, learn facts and you desperately need reading comprehension as I never said he was getting a raise. You think he’s getting paid the 500k still? I simply said without Franco, they wouldn’t be as high as $79M. They’d be closer to $77M or so. It’s really basic math, elementary even.
But, I’m lost on finances? Okay… I cannot continue with your ignorant mischaracterizations of conversations.
@ Yankee Clipper;
LOL
None of those teams are “tanking”.
As for making more revenue – do you have any idea of how high franchises other expense’s have gone up. Added scouting and coaching personnel. Far more employees using computers and video equipment that has to be paid for. Lawyers and PR people that have to be used for to cover for every single accusation by someone trying to shake franchises down for money and make a name for themselves.
You’re another one of the people that think:
Gross Revenue – Payroll = Money In The Owners Pocket
You might want to talk to an accountant to get some perspective.
No, Samuel, but as usual you speak from a very jaded, uninformed perspective. Payroll is the largest portion of expenditures. Coaches? You’re kidding right? Managers and GMs only get a couple million a year.
Those teams are the very definition of tanking, but I’ll play your game:
When was the last time O’s were even competitive? A’s stay barely competitive and never increase expenditures, and AZ? D-backs? Twins? Rays stay way under and you obviously don’t understand revenue sharing and draft pick comps, among other very nuanced aspects of the finances. They’re all banking money. And no, the Yankees haven’t spent an increased $400 billion on staff. That’s preposterous.
So while I appreciate your attempt at an insult, you’ve gone above and beyond with presuming, assuming, and concluding without having correct information (or even attempting to further understand my general position as it relates to your hyperbole). The overt example is your assumption (formula). I never spoke about gross – roster payroll directly equating to net income, but maybe that’s as complicated as you can conceive.
@ Yankee Clipper;
I’m neither “jaded” nor “uninformed”.
Being a large market Yankee fan you perceive what teams are doing looking through the lens of rotisserie baseball. Everyone should be spending everything they can each year.
I’m sorry, but that’s not the way business works – particularly in an industry with such disparity in revenue. Apparently you don’t comprehend what mid-size and small market teams do….which is the same as many businesses – they roll over cash each year for when they’re ready to expand.
Non-large market teams try to get into a contention window of 2-4 years. They primarily employ young cheap players and bring them along. As the players get better over a few years their salaries rise. As the teams hit those windows of contention they use the revenue they’ve held to go after more expensive players to get them over the top. Note how people here complained about the Jays not spending for years – but starting in 2021 and now for 2022 they’ve laid out big bucks for veteran players…..some of which they’d saved up during previous seasons.
This is not rotisserie baseball. If you think that all teams should spend the same (and players believe that all should be paid the same for production no matter what market size they play in) then put all MLB revenues into a kitty; split them evenly with the 30 teams (whose owners are actually business partners with one another); make all players free agents each year (something I’ve believed in for years) and set a (high) salary floor and ceiling – based on that years revenues.
Okay, here you go again. Yes, you’re both. Let’s start with one of your (many) insults/assumptions:
“You’re another one of the people that think:
Gross Revenue – Payroll = Money In The Owners Pocket”. Nope, never said nor implied that.
Let’s do another, shall we?
“ This is not rotisserie baseball. If you think that all teams should spend the same”. Nope, never implied or said same or nearly same.
Another?
“ Apparently you don’t comprehend what mid-size and small market teams do….which is the same as many businesses ”.
Yep, I’ll just stick with you being incredibly pretentious and arrogant. Of course, you have all the answers, yet you’ve only accused, but explained nothing. You’ve literally taken everything out of context and to it’s extreme so you can then insult and appear to be intelligent. It’s classic behavior for someone who is wildly insecure.
You do this nearly every post. Then try to back off when called on it. You’d misinterpreted (intentionally) everything I wrote so you can respond with your own narrative and criticism. You’re one of those people.
I like how you’ve completely avoided my direct responses to your accusation also, ie: Franco salary. What your statements tell me is you’ve never ever run a business (successfully). You think it takes years upon years saving hundreds of millions to pay for a top-tier player? Lol.
You think “lawyers and PR people” take the rest of the revenue ($400 billion!)? I can’t even converse with someone so disingenuous you literally make things up as you go along.
@sammyboy All MLB teams had $250 million in revenue this year. They can all afford a minimum of $125 million and still turn a tidy profit.
@Padies Fansboy,
Did you know that most MLB franchises have set non-payroll expenses of around $150m before the season starts?
Bs. To pay “secretaries” and equipment people or drug dealers and prostitutes along with thugs I mean security. Let’s see what those alleged tens of millions go to before I believe that. By the way does that count the $10,000,000 they pay in retirement or whatever?
Complete revenue sharing and a cap/floor wherein each team is spending within a $40M-$50M corridor is what is needed. Not just a floor OR just a cap.
@ retire21;
Yes!
Particularly since players and their agents think that if a guy is producing in Tampa or Pittsburgh what a guy is producing in New York or Los Angeles, they they should get the same salary.
Yankee Clipper3 hours ago
The players have a valid point in terms of the overall increases in MLB
===================================
The players have two options. One option is to become partners with the owners and take a percentage of the revenue. The players refused. When things were going well for the players, and so well for the owners, that was a smart move.
With revenues going thru the roof, it turns out it was a bad move. The players will not get the option of negotiating for better salaries, with an option to take a percentage of the revenue, should revenue continue to grow.
@mikeybrady The players never refused to take a share of the revenue, because its never been offered. Not in 2011. Not in 2016. Not now. The owners have always refused to open their books. Can’t share revenue if the other party won’t reveal exactly what that revenue is.
The players will get higher salaries and nearly everything they are asking for, because if they don’t, there won’t be a season and its likely they win their grievance with the NLRB over the owners for the 2020 season and get billions. If there is no season, the owners would lose all of their revenue for 2022 while still having to cover 25-33% of their expenses. .
Huh? Of course a cap helps to solve this. Teams are tanking because they can’t win against 250+ million dollar payrolls and everyone knows it. Not to mention they cannot make a mistake on a player. High payroll teams can make a mistake, eat the salary and trade the guy for minor leaguers. No big deal. middle and low payroll teams can’t do that. Not to mention it takes more payroll space at the deadline to have a real shot. High payroll teams take on big salaries at the deadline. Baseball econimcs is broken terribly and something has to give. I don’t agree with the tanking but i am also not blind enough to think a cap wouldn’t help level things.
Then why is MLB, without a hard cap, still a more competitive league than the NFL with a hard cap?
the stats don’t support your argument. Believing that baseball has parity is comical.
@ dpsmith22;
He didn’t say MLB had parity.
The reality is that over the past few decades MLB has had more teams going to their championship game and more teams winning it than any of the other major team sports.
–
Do you really think that all teams should be competitive each year?….in any sport? Have you noticed in MLB that teams that have low payrolls are almost always in some sort of rebuild (see exceptions below*) and that after a few years as they become more competitive their payrolls go up – while other teams then go into a rebuild and take their place at the bottom of payroll expense?
–
* The reason Oakland and Tampa Bay are problems is that even when their teams are competitive, their attendance and TV contracts remain near the bottom of the league year-after-year. Last year the Rays finished first in their division, they were 28th in attendance. The A’s were in competition for a playoff spot, they finished 29th in attendance. Miami finished 30th, after all that nonsensical talk about their just needing a new park – fact is that Florida will not support ML baseball for reasons that have nothing to do with a park, its location, and whether or not the team is winning.
Here’s an office pool right here on MLBTR: in which month will the new CBA be in place?
A) January
B) February
C) March
D) April
E) May
F) June
G) Later than June
B
B
C
Late B early C?
4.5
B
B
All I know is if they start missing games they will lose a lot of fans.
They did in ‘94. Unfortunately, this adversely affects the game far more than the length of each game or bad umpiring calls, imho.
I don’t believe they’ll lose fans with a delayed start. Certainly no long term damage. They will lose fans if there’s a midseason ‘94-like work stoppage.
Nothing will get done until after the New Year.
The Lunar New Year
Normally I don’t fluff the players as all good and the owners as all evil as most message boards go yet from reading this article it seems to me the players are trying to negotiate in good faith and the owners are involved in stonewalling machinations. The players seem to have reasonable “asks,” ones that the fans would support.
@ special agent
Yes the players have “asks”, but its a negotiation. What are their “gives”? I know they want more money. Are they willing to expand playoffs? I know that is an “ask” of the owners. The players want every team to be competitive every year. Not a realistic “ask” by the players side. It essentially frames the “we want every team to max payroll every year” as somehow being in the fans best interest. More money going to players helps the fan base not at all. It can be said it makes it harder for fans to afford their fandom.
My understanding is that the owners wanted to lift the cap by $4M in the first year, and the players it lifted by something like $35M.
The owners only proposal to date in regards to the CBT was to lower it to $180 million. The players initially asked for $250 million and lowered that ask to $240 million.
When you take into consideration that all the teams will have revenue of over $250 million in 2022, a CBT of $240 million is reasonable. $210 was ludicrous when teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, Giants, and Phillies have revenue high enough that they could all surpass $250 million in player salaries calculated to the CBT and still be making a good profit.
You’re crazy players want to keep getting paid well in their 30’s in a sport where McCutchens went from MVP to done (at least being the guy) in a season. That’s in a league that had most being fa’s at 29-30.
If there is a delay to season due to this lockout, it will infuriate a lot of long time fans. ’94 was devastating enough, but we forgave them. Now with a global pandemic, we need them more than ever for distraction and happiness. Please everyone don’t leave your fans in the dust.
The owners need to sit down with Dana White and have him explain to them what ‘working your ass off for the fans’ does to the bottom dollar.
Conversely, 2 shortened seasons out of the last three might dig a hole that they will never get out of. Out of the ‘big 4’ baseball is the only one not rapidly expanding its fan base, has been lapped by the UFC, and is about to be overtaken by hockey as far as popularity with the masses goes.
If they lock out, it’s going to decimate the sport’s public perception in ways I don’t think the owners understand.
I don’t remember any forgiveness. What I remember is a steroid-fueled home run derby made possible by MLB averting it eyes from PED use, and that creating the next crisis in baseball.
“That’s kind of what we are stressing with our proposals: let’s make the game better for everybody, number one being the fans.”
Like either side gives a rat’s bohiney about the fans… Nothing more than posturing in the media for sympathy.
Neither side benefits from a delayed season so I believe cooler heads will prevail and they’ll get a deal done no later than week 2 of the original start of Spring Training. This should not push back the start of the regular season.
While players are pointing to increased revenues, the owners have some good points to counter with:
1) The pandemic year not only destroyed league revenues but it also made most teams unprofitable, losing money (negative income) from both a financial standpoint and more importantly, from a cash flow perspective. Most franchises are still trying to recoup from that, especially those who had state-mandated, attendance restrictions to start the 2021 season as well as those teams that depend on revenue sharing, which was not collected or given out in 2020. It will take multiple years to recoup these losses.
2) 2022 is year 2 (of two) where owners have to pay 50% of the deferred signing bonuses for their 2020 draft class and is also the first year of paying the deferred signing bonuses for the 2021 draft class as well. By all accounts, the 2022 draft class will get their signing bonuses paid in full in year 1 so owners are actually paying what amounts to double their annual Rule 4 signing bonuses this year and 150% of those bonuses in 2023. For some teams, this will amount to close to $20M this year and $15M next year. Not an insignificant amount of money, especially for small market teams.
3) This is the first year where MLB teams need to provide minor league players with housing and utilities. This is going to cost each team millions of dollars apiece that they’ve never need to pay (or budget for) in the past.
4) Operating expenses are growing faster than league revenues. Salaries for stadium workers and front office workers have increased substantially due to a strong job market. Teams are having trouble staffing their stadiums due to lack of applicants. The cost of electricity has gone up 30-35% nationwide, and needless to say, stadiums use a ton of electricity for each home game. Health insurance costs continue to rise out of control, and travel expenses have increased 20-30% over the last two seasons. The costs of their annual charter flight contracts, hotel contracts, transportation contracts, etc. have all increased to the same proportions as standard travel rates have.
There are other cost increases as well (food per diems, costs to prepare food for home games, advertising costs, Covid testing costs, broadcast production costs, police security costs, etc.) so while revenues may very well be increasing, these expenses are increasing at a faster rate and there’s no sign of these slowing down over the next 5 years (the length of the standard CBA agreement).
I think you’ve got excellent points, but we can’t say with any degree of certainty expenditures are outpacing revenues without disclosures of both.
Very true, Yankee Clipper. The first thing union reps will say is “show me the books” in order to prove it. So much could be solved if the owners agreed to open their books to the union.
You presume that the MLB teams are not being subsidized by the local governments.. which they are.. that they don’t get special utility rates.. which they do. .For commercial users, the U.S. Energy Information Administration’s national average estimated cost for commercial electricity per KW Hour.. in 2020 is 10.59. for 2021 is 11.23… so a little math… 11.23 / 10.59= 1.060 or a rise in electricity of 6%.. not in the 30+5 range… for industrial users.. 6.67 in 2020 and 7.17.. a little math 1.08 ( rounded up.. a rise of 8%… eia.gov/outlooks/steo/report/electricity.php
and if you round for ease of math.. 180 total Minor league teams.. x 30 players x $2,000 per month in expenses x 12 months.. =$130, 000,000 divided by ( 2020) a revenue of $3,600,000,000= ( rounded up .. 4 % cost of the new expenses to house and feed…) of course players salaries fell easily that much… from 2019 to 2021. in fact more.. according to Trade rumors… 167 Million…
i suggest a little research on a factual content before you post…
Dorothy does research, and typically has very informed takes on matters, whether I agree with the outcome or not.
Nonetheless, you are correct, sir. There are plenty of income streams that aren’t readily perceived, deals with entities that supplement team spending (I was involved in one, so I have some idea), revenue sharing amongst teams, TV deals, branding/marketing revenue, etc.
There are multifarious streams of revenue coming in and we simply can’t account for the various methods or the total team revenue, but it’s a lot.
There’s a reason teams won’t open the books – I don’t blame them, mind you – but to advocate some sort of poverty (even the O’s & Pit) is a joke. Multimillionaires don’t keep investing in businesses that don’t make money. There’s a reason why ownership is so exclusive a club.
Billionaires…. virtually every owner.. ( unless there are many owners of the team) and then there is the bookkeeping… the MLB double dip.. where they deduct the cost of paying the player while … depreciating the same contract… showing 2X the expense for the same cost to their pocket books… The fact is .. when teams cry poverty they are mostly lying thru their teeth… forget the accounting… forget the projected revenues.. all we need to see is the estimated value of the MLB which has risen steadily for years to the point where every team is worth over a billion dollars… that can’t happen without them being extremely profitable… and of course those public subsidies they call Stadiums.. which hide revenues and allow them to deduct costs they never incur..
Let me take that point by point.
#1 – We know from the Braves and Jays that no team lost money in 2020. Because of the shortened season and receiving 100% of their TV money teams lost revenue but they were not in the red overall.
#2 – Any deferrals are not the player’s union problem. Since those players from the 2020 draft are not part of the union, that was an agreement between the owners and the owners basically.
#3 – MLB cut 45 teams entirely. That more than makes up for paying housing for MiLB players. Plus, paying the housing makes it a tax break.
#4 – Operating expenses are not growing 20% per season, which has been the average of revenue growth in 4 of the past 5 seasons. It has not even been close to that. I fly a team of 16-24 people around the country weekly and my costs have gone up 6% in 2021.
Thank you for the information and data points
“I fly a team of 16-24 people around the country weekly.”
Lmfao I freaking bet…
“Lack of progress” LOL!
Hard to imagine there’s going to be any ‘progress’ whatsoever on the MLBPA’s pretend ‘grievances’, none of which justify a work stoppage. I don’t begrudge Marcus Semien anything, but it’s remarkable hearing a guy with 7 out of 9 seasons with an OPS+ below league average and who just signed for $175MM, complain because his union is encountering a ‘lack of progress’ on its clown proposals. Most of the players are naive kids being led by the nose down the garden path.
Wait’ll Marcus sees what a lost season is going to cost him.
The MLBPA didn’t stop working. The owners locked the players out. You are not paying attention here. Eye on the ball. Eye on the ball.
Swing batta!
The owners locked the players out because the players’ bargaining demands are so far from the current collective agreement and so far from what the owners are gong to agree to.
The owners continued the season in 1994 and look what it got them. The players’ union figured it could leverage the 1994 post-season to get what it wanted in bargaining after being paid for most of the season. The World Series ended up being cancelled in 1994 and the owners aren’t going to let that happen again.
So poor Marcus Semien, who has been able to turn a career (7 out of 9 seasons) of sub-par OPS seasons into only $175MM, will not be able to use the playoffs as a mid-season bargaining chip like the union did in 1994, after getting paid most their salaries. Cry us a river, union bro Marcus.
Instead, if Marcus wants to see his $175MM, he and his union bros are going to have to grow up and sign a collective agreement like the one that was in place when he scored his $175. If they want to carry on with silly bargaining positions, and block any changes the owners want, like robo-umps for example, Marcus is going to to be surprised how much of that 175 disappears. This work stoppage is entirely on players like Marcus being led by the MLBPA down the garden path with silly propaganda.
Call me a glass half empty guy, but I will be surprised to see games before June and even then the CBA may have issues before an arbitrator or the Federal Labor Relations Board.
The CBA is not going to be decided by an arbitrator. Grievances that occur during the life of the CBA are decided by arbitrators, but the CBA itself is decided by direct negotiations.
One point I agree with the players on is that young players salaries need to be able to increase based on performance. It’s unfair to see players like Franco, Soto, India, etc..carry their teams during parts of the season only to be locked into $600K maximum salaries. While it would be great to fix this, it will come at the expense of the middle class or older FA’s looking for their last contracts. If the costs for younger players increase, owners will look to offset those pay raises elsewhere and that will be done by offering less to the league average players. At the end of the day, teams know how much they want to spend, so all they’ll do is shuffle who gets paid what to stay within budget.
The one thing that really bugs me about long term contracts is that the owners take 100% of the risk. If a player signs a long term contract and their performance falls off a cliff (i.e. Chis Davis), the team has no ability to get out from under it, causing the competitive unbalance mention by Semien and others in this article as they have to carry that deadweight throughout the full contract term. Players get all the advantages for upside (opt outs, private hotel suites, etc.) but the owners are handcuffed throughout the entire term. I’d love to see the union agree to a provision where if a contract is signed for 6 or more years, the owners have the opportunity to buy the player out for 70% of the remaining contract value, so long as they do it within the first 50% of the contract term and the bought out years would not count against the CBT. (They would not be able to buy out injured players, just for players who are performing poorly). For example, a 6 year deal could only be bought out through year 3, and the team would only be charged for the first 3 years of AAV against the CBT. This would allow teams who look to avoid CBT penalties to spend more and not be dinged for the tax hit. They would have to put limits on it (perhaps only one or two ‘active’ buyouts per team). It would give owners the ability to get out from under a bad deal and the player would get ~70% of the total value remaining on their contract, becoming a Free Agent as part of the process. They should be able to make up the difference (if not make more) by signing a new deal as well.
Dorothy_M – I like your suggestion because it focuses on the “real” financial inequities in MLB, wherein the minor league players, the first year Major League players and young productive players get short shrift, while stars and underachieving players get paid handsomely.
Just like in society itself, money needs to be distributed more equitably. The owners need to pay the underlings better wages, but they also should not have to pay players who don’t live up to their contracts (unless injury is the cause).
In this way, the owners would end up paying a bit more than they do now (to those who deserve it) and the Chris Davis types in MLB would be released. And remember, the last time I saw figures, the “average Major League” player makes $6.8M annually. Even half of that should make retirement a very comfortable exit.
The way owners and Players fought in 2020 is the best example of how neither side is willing to negotiate and I can bet there are still bad feelings.
It was the players that pushed the owners to play only 50 games, when they knew teams were going to loose money by not having gate revenue.
You have that backwards, In 2020 the owners are the ones that shortened the season. The players were ready to play in April and wanted a much longer season. They were so unhappy about the owners shortening the season so much that they filed a grievance with the NLRB, the federal labor board. A grievance that is still outstanding today.
You are right that they filed a grievance, but I don’t think that tells us much about how ‘unhappy’ they were. They don’t need leave, and it doesn’t cost money to file a grievance. They do that for free, and all that it costs them is their legal representation which they are paying for anyway with MLBPA staff lawyers. Their ‘grievance’ is that the owners could have played more games – into November apparently during a seasonal pandemic. I don’t think that ‘grievance” has much chance of success and it was only filed because Boras was mouthing off about how the NFL was playing in November.
I doubt that ‘grievance’ will ever be heard exactly because it;’s foolish.
It was the players that refused to play on reduced salaries (while all the world was working on reduced salaries). On any industry would you produce a product or a service that you know is going to loose money?
Somewhere around February 10th when Manfred realizes spring training is a few days away maybe, just maybe, he will be interested in actual negotiations.
Advantage Burns.
Get Chris Rose back on Intentional Talk, enough already. movies, super heros, pretending to be a man; that little boy hired by the gays at MLB has a face for radio.
Replacement players please!! Let’s see all those four-A players that never got a shot
Pat-Orioles fans have been treated to that for 3 years straight
Players don’t really care about all 30 teams being competitive every year. They just want all 30 teams spending more money. Owners don’t really care about the integrity of the game, they just want to keep more of the money. Fine, almost everyone wants more money, but the part I really resent is the BS. Do they really believe we can’t see through the comments and posturing?
Just let teams small market regions be able to control their young superstars for seven years or until they are 29 years old and allow the luxury tax threshold to be around $240 million where teams like the Yankees to Red Sox to Dodgers keep up their spending habits. In the meantime, allow an universal DH around the entire MLB so these outrageous contracts don’t bite teams in the ass once these players break down and can’t play their positions all of the time when they get older so they can play DH. Finally, the MLB should keep the season at 162 games and expand the playoff teams so teams don’t start tanking in July where fans begin losing interest.
Can we blame the rangers for that arod contract that started this whole free agency spike for talent. I mean the players don’t want a salary cap. But the arbitration system is also broken rising the luxury tax isn’t going to solve anything. Why spend $90 million in 3 players instead spreading that money around on 25 guys. There should be a salary floor for the minimum so team does spend. You can never sign these players for less like you used to. It’s still billionaires arguing with millionaires. Yet the scouts, coaches, front office personnel and other on field management doesn’t make the type of money they make. Back in the days players either served in the wars , or had another job. The minor leaguers should make a little more money. If you didn’t sign a high dollar signing bonus from the draft you’re basically playing in single a making $25k , then 50k to double a and 75k to triple a, by the time these guys get to majors they are making 10 times what they made in minors. But I like Mlb proposal on the age group for players in the system. Players also forget that these big market teams aren’t spending those 10 yr contracts on players after the wrong side of 30. Players peak between ages of 24-34, they break down after that. Baseball isn’t like football or basketball that you sign this guy and he’ll play right into the big lights. There’s still all these other 75 players in their system. If players wants to see players get paid then start on the guys in minors than the ones in majors who makes 10 -100x more. It’s ridiculous.
As an Orioles’ fan through the years I have always been the proponent of a hard salary cap. But more and more I support the idea of a salary floor, set 2/3 or 70% of the cap, to prevent tanking.
Also:
1. I think there needs to be a mechanism to get out from under large contracts such as the NFL (the same “dead cap space” concept can be used, to prevent the frivolous deals)
2. Free agency starts after 5th year, see #3 below.
3. Fix the service time manipulation – if a player plays 1 game in 2022, no matter if its Opening Day or September 30th, plays 1 game or 162, that’s year 1.
4. Something has to be done with arbitration – I don’t have a suggestion – but top young players are way underpaid compared to relative salaries/productivities of the 10 year vets on their 2nd or 3rd contract.
In terms of pacing growth in salaries, affordability, etc – MLB can take a lesson from the NHL. The NHL was forced to do this after it shot itself in the foot by missing a WHOLE season in 2004-05 which hurt it badly, then missing part of another season. It basically had to reboot from a much lower starting point and is thriving pretty well today.
If MLB has a work stoppage, I really hope a competing league springs up like the USFL in the 80s or WHA in the 70s, which will force innovation and help all aspects.