The Baseball Writers Association of America revealed the results of Cy Young award balloting this evening. Robbie Ray of the Blue Jays (now a free agent) and Corbin Burnes of the Brewers were named the American League and National League winners, respectively.
Ray claimed the AL award in resounding fashion, an achievement made all the more remarkable by his 2020 struggles. The southpaw dealt with significant control problems during the shortened campaign, leading the D-Backs to trade him to Toronto for essentially no return. After the end of the year, the Jays jumped the market to bring Ray back, buying low on the talented hurler with a one-year, $8MM pact.
That move will go down as one of the best of general manager Ross Atkins’ tenure in Toronto. Not only did Ray get back to heights that saw him make an All-Star team and garner some Cy Young support in 2017, he posted the best showing of his eight-year career. Ray worked 193 1/3 innings of 2.84 ERA ball, striking out an elite 32.1% of batters faced. That swing-and-miss stuff was nothing new, but the 29-year-old also cut his walk rate by almost two thirds. Just one year after walking 17.9% of opponents, Ray doled out free passes at just a 6.9% clip in 2021.
64 American League pitchers tallied 100+ innings this past season. Among that group, Ray ranked 3rd in ERA, strikeout percentage, strikeout/walk rate differential (25.2 percentage points) and SIERA (3.22). He led all AL hurlers in both innings pitched and swinging strike rate (15.5%). That stellar showing earns Ray his first Cy Young award and positions him as one of the top pitchers on this offseason’s free agent market.
As mentioned, the voting tilted quite strongly in Ray’s favor. He appeared on all 30 ballots, receiving 29 first-place votes and one second-place tally. The Yankees’ Gerrit Cole (who received the lone first-place nod that didn’t go to Ray) was the clear second-place finisher, with Lance Lynn of the White Sox coming in third. Nathan Eovaldi, Carlos Rodón, Frankie Montas, Lance McCullers Jr., Liam Hendriks, José Berríos, Chris Bassitt, Lucas Giolito and Raisel Iglesias also received down ballot support.
Voting in the National League was far more contentious, with very little separation between Burnes and the Phillies’ Zack Wheeler at the top. Both players received twelve first-place votes and appeared on all 30 ballots in some capacity, but Burnes’ 14-9 edge in second-place finishes wound up making the difference. The other six first-place votes went to eventual third-place finisher Max Scherzer, who split the season between the Nationals and Dodgers.
To some extent, the battle between Burnes and Wheeler came down to weighing volume versus rate effectiveness. Wheeler tossed an MLB-best 213 1/3 innings, while Burnes worked 167 frames. That’s a rather significant nod in Wheeler’s favor, but Burnes’ per-inning accomplishments were incredible. The Milwaukee righty ranked second among the 62 NL hurlers with 100+ innings in ERA (2.43) while pacing the league in SIERA (2.61), strikeout percentage (35.6%), strikeout/walk rate differential (30.4 percentage points) and swinging strike rate (16.6%).
That’s not to imply Wheeler was ineffective. The Phils’ righty was among the top ten in the league in most rate categories as well. But voters ultimately gave an ever so slight edge to Burnes’ utter domination of opponents, even if that came with a lighter workload than the one Wheeler shouldered.
Like Ray, Burnes takes home his first Cy Young award. He’d finished sixth in last year’s balloting and now looks like one of the game’s top handful of hurlers moving forward. It wouldn’t be a surprise if the Brewers, who control Burnes via arbitration through the end of 2024, try to open extension talks with his representatives at CAA Sports over this offseason.
In addition to the three finalists, Walker Buehler, Brandon Woodruff, Kevin Gausman, Adam Wainwright, Julio Urías and Jacob deGrom picked up some down ballot support. Buehler was the only non-finalist to garner any second-place votes, with two runner-up nods.
See full balloting results.
Images courtesy of USA TODAY Sports.
Well deserved
Zack Wheeler absolutely robbed
Agreed, Zack Wheeler was robbed.
Burnes had 1.63 FIP, Wheelers’ was 2.59.
Zack Wheeler absolutely did not deserve to win.
Nice stat. Wheeler got 139 more batters out.
Of course, he pitched more innings. Its not an innings pitched competition.
We’ll never know what Wheeler’s FIP or any other nerd stat he would’ve had with 46 less innings.
I’m only 167 innings pitched.
Wheeler gave up more Earned Runs. Ergo, a higher E.RA.
If exposed in more innings who knows if Burnes’ FIP and other stats wouldn’t have taken a hit.
It was close enough that it basically came down to a coin flip. Both guys deserved it for a heck of a season. Congrats to burned for the victory.
Burnes *
Robbed is an overstatement. All three finalists were worthy.
What bothered m about Wheeler was him having three straight bad starts after his one-hitter against the Mets. That stretch came at a time when the Phillies really needed to make their move.
Wheeler pitched 46 more innings than Burnes. That’s an insane amount.
And Burnes still had more fWAR lol
Interesting you chose fWAR to cherry-pick and not bWAR.
Nobody pitched an insane amount of innings in 2021. It’s weird how some people get angry over this stuff. Really, really weird.
fWAR more accurately shows what a pitcher can control.
Lol. Always reference the WAR that fits your narrative
f all the WAR stats
Cause bWar sucks
213 innings v 167 is a pretty good gap.
I’m a big fan of expected stats to project future performance but Wheeler performed on the field this year. It’s not a projections contest. 213 innings of 2.7 ball > 167 innings of 2.43 Ball to me.
I don’t think it’s egregious. I think Scherzer had a good case too. But Wheeler would’ve gotten my vote. It’s easy to lose effectiveness as you go deeper into a game. Wheeler was going deeper.
Buehler as well.
There were really a ton of deserving candidates.
No. Both bWAR and fWAR have their own value, but Fangraphs formula builds in expected future performance. B-R’s is better for determining what was performed on the field, making it better for Cy Young voting.
My vote would have gone to Wheeler. 212 innings is nothing to scoff at after a vastly shortened season, and it’s been a long time since you saw anyone throw 300 innings. Old man yells at cloud, but I miss the days when Fergie Jenkins was throwing 30 complete games a season. Finish what you started. Those days are long gone. Get off my lawn.
In 1884 Old Hoss Radbourn threw 678 innings in in 73 starts with 73 complete games and two relief appearances. He had 60 wins and a 1.38 era. That’s insane.
Given that fWAR is FIP and ratio-based, rather than accomplishment-based, it is not at all surprising.
The AL fWAR pitching leaders are Eovaldi, Cole, Rodon and Dylan Dease. fWAR for pitchers is a joke.
I disagree. I thought Buehler, Burnes, Urias, Scherzer and Wheeler all had very impressive seasons, and think that none can say they were robbed. Because of the closeness, I would rule out Scherzer, who may have had the best stats, because he played the majority of the season on a non-contender. I would also tie-break the pitchers on teams that made the playoffs over Wheeler because they were so close. I would have Buehler and Urias ranked one and two but I would not quarrel with anyone who arranges these top five differently. I know some will count strikeouts more than me and wins less than me, but these are five amazing pitchers. Had Burnes pitched a couple more games, he would have possibly separated from the pack. Have to believe having three top pitchers with Dodgers at the end divided some of their vote.
I’m giving it to Burnes because he had the fewest wins of that group.
Any moment now, Metsfan22 will show up to tell us deGrom was robbed.
“Burnes is lucky deGrom was injured, otherwise he never would’ve got the award.”
The ridiculous statement that MetsFan will post.
Yet the braves still beat scherzer, urias and buhler in the playoffs. Voting done before, but still.
MetsFanb22 is still upset over deGrom not winning a Silver Slugger.
Scoreboard
I mean… He would have lol
@citizen- lol, but still what? A 7 game series vs 162 game season. Urias over a longer span in the regular season won 20 games and lost 3. ERA was 2.96. Burnes won 11 games, pitched less games and innings. Enough said.
Citizen: That is credit to Atlanta ball club, not reason to change CY votes.
Lol
Not really. Wheeler had a great year but Burnes year was better. 58 innings without a walk to start off the year then with the combined no-hitter later in the summer. Burnes year was slightly better plus his team made the playoffs
A combined no-hitter and making the playoffs don’t tell me much about an individual’s performance
Burnes pitched significantly less innings. I have no problems with Burnes winning the award, but you can pull stats saying Wheeler should’ve won as well. They got the same amount of 1st place votes for a reason. One of the closest races in recent memory. Well deseeved by Burnes, but he by no means had a better year. It’s just not clear. They both were excellent.
@VonPurpleHayes, what about those three bad starts by Wheeler after he nearly no-hit the Mets?
I don’t think those were enough to knock him out of contention. Especially since he salvaged some of those. And look, I’m not saying Wheeler deserved it more than Burnes either. That’s not my gripe. I just don’t think you can clearly say one was more valuable than the other. Burnes deserved it for sure, but I would be making the same statement had Wheeler won. I think this was a facisnating case of a guy who pitched too few innings cs a guy who pitched too many. I probably would’ve voted Burnes too. I’m just debating the point that Burnes’ season was clearly better than Wheeler’s. In my mind, you can debate either one. Great race.
Look at his stats then, that’ll tell you all about his performance this year
Amazing stats by both. Wheeler led the league in complete games, shut outs,innings pitched, batters faced and Ks. It really depends which stats you value more. Can easily make the case for either. Burnes definitely deserved it. Not what I want to argue.
The combined no hitter shows how dominant Corbin Burnes was when he pitched. The 58 innings without issuing a walk showed how dominant Corbin Burnes command in (& around) the strke zone was. Those DEFINITELY shows a lot about an individual’s performance.
Burnes is the first (qualified) pitcher ever to lead the league in walk rate, strikeout rate, and home run rate. Oh and he led the league in ERA.
Eh, wheeler led in Kos but pitched more innings. Burnes lead in more categories. Usually leading in lower era seals the deal.
Not just that but which player performed better for his team last 2 months of season and pushed for the playoffs.
Walker Buehler was robbed. How wasn’t he even a finalist? 200+ innings, 200 Ks, sub 1 whip, sub .200 baa and only a 0.04 era difference than league leader (but with 40+ innings)
Would also have been great for him into arbitration
TheLawAbides, if you say a guy was robbed, you have to say who you would kick out to allow Buehler in. Thems the rules.
Probably Burnes or maybe Wheeler. Im big on baa whip and innings and I’d much rather see CY winner with at least 200 innings but Burnes is better in all other stats.
Buehler(200ip,<1whip,<.200baa)/Sherzer(best whip and baa of the 3)/ Burnes
@ChiSoxShiddy: Wheeler got robbed. For some reason none of the voters cares about innings pitched. They like the tiny numbers even if it comes with low innings pitched. Why not just give a closer the Cy Young if that’s the case?
I’m not a Phillies fan at all but the IP alone should hand then Cy to Wheeler. That’s just a fact. Wheeler is a workhorse. Burnes is the opposite.
Is signing Ray really “one of the best” general manager moves if the team only rents him and finishes in second to last place and misses the playoffs? The Blue Jays didn’t even make the playoffs so they didn’t accomplish their ultimate goal of a championship at all. I agree Robbie Ray was easily worth the money. It would only be “one of the best” if they had the forsight to lock him up for multiple years or if they won it when they had him.
From Robbie Rays perspective he used the Blue Jays to give him a pillow contract and it worked. From the Blue Jays perspective they didn’t even make the playoffs –much less win the championship– and now Ray is likely to leave. That’s not good for the Jays organization or it’s fans.
They turned 8 million bucks in to 30+ elite starts and a draft pick.
If only ‘good’ moves come from teams that win the championship that’s a pretty short list.
BS……If both pitchers had the same amount of innings, Burns stats are way better than Wheelers. Yes, you would have to go from the end of the season, and delete 5 or 6 starts off of Wheelers record. Once you delete his last 5 or 6 starts, and match Burns to Wheeler…. Burns wins hands down. It is not an innings competition, it is based on overall stats.
Robbed is kind of a strong word considering the guy that won had a lower era, fip, whip, and a higher era+. An argument can be made for either but given the choice of who id want pitching for my team in 2021 I’d take Burnes.
@millville: Let’s see Burnes put up those numbers while pitching the same number of innings Wheeler does. He can’t.
Probably wasn’t his choice as much as it was his analytical department and coaching staff. Maybe it’s why his team made the playoffs and Wheelers didn’t.
Did anyone see the stats if they only took into consideration up to the first 6 innings for each of the top 3? Wheeler’s numbers beat the other two. It was his usage by Girardi due to the Phils horrible bullpen that forced his hand.
@MillvilleMeteor Exactly. No one was robbed. This was well deserved, and the close results show that both pitchers were seriously considered. Burnes did a great job. If you want to argue for Wheeler, absolutely, but you can’t really argue against Burnes. He had a phenomenal year.
If it was called most valuable pitcher Wheeler was certainly more valuable with those extra innings. He faced the most batters in the 7th inning and on for starters. That should count given all these writers want the games to be faster.
Wheeler struggled in September. He isn’t that valuable.
1. Congrats Burnes, totally deserved, gonna be a hell of a pain to face this guy like 4 times a year.
2. Thank You Robbie Ray, picked him up in early June, had a hell of year, carried my pitching staff when Bauer, Kearch, Glasnow went down, almost got me the chip.
It’s always using when comments are made on here directly to athletes.
Amusing*
They do the same thing when screaming obscenities at their TV set during games. It would be great someday if one of those players gave those fans the finger in their living room.
It’s always amusing when comments are made on here about others. Talk baseball and keep the crap to yourself.
@sweetlou….What crap exactly? I made an observation about comments apparently made directly to athletes.
You literally just did what you’re accusing others of doing.
They made a made a mute button for a reason? Gee some people have no common sense?
Adam Wainwright got stiffed, but Corbin Burnes was the best pitcher, but for the 3rd time in his career Adam Wainwright got stiffed cause Kershaw or somebody was better. Active leader in complete games added 3 more this year.
Waino has reinvented himself in the last few seasons and it’s been quite an impressive adjustment.
Tell Juan Marichal the news.
paddyo87545 mins ago
@sweetlou….What crap exactly? I made an observation about comments apparently made directly to athletes.
================================
And is there a point to your comment?
@joebrady…I was asking Lou how my observation was crap. It was quite clear.
I’m trying hard to follow your point. Are you really trying to say Wainwright deserved the Cy Young Award in 2021?
Burnes was best but Wainwright stiffed? I can’t understand your point.
mlbtraderumors.com/2021/11/trevor-story-to-reject-…
So much for your THEORY about Trevor Story accepting the qualifying offer LOL
Eh, you got me
What is so hard to understand FormerlyCubsWin108? I told you players with Story’s track record who put up 3.5 WAR in their contract year don’t accept qualifying offers. ESPECIALLY ones who actively want out of their current organizations. But you know everything right?
I take months long breaks from the site but it never takes me very long to find Ryan screaming at someone under a different username.
You ever just be right and walk away as the bigger man?
@jbigz If you got a problem with me or any other commenter you know where the mute button is. I’d use it on you if you didn’t at least make the occasional good take. You were a rock star on the thread about the Padres promoting Tatis early and the thread where that CheesheadPadre guy wanted the Padres to buy JT Realmuto at peak value with the express purpose of flipping him at the deadline (for what what would have been 30 cents on the dollar). Shame you can’t be like that more often.
I don’t have a problem with you boss. I use to jump down people’s throats for being wrong but it’s just tiring and unproductive.
I don’t even disagree with you all that often. You just kinda shove it down people’s throats to the point where no one wants you to be right. I like you though. I’ve said that.
You were his Uber ride? Sure he remembers you.
How did Zack Wheeler not win? He led in Black Ink across the board by a large margin including WAR… It’d be like if Lance Lynn won in the AL instead of Robbie Ray with Corbin Burnes winning over Wheeler in the NL.
I don’t understand how they come to the conclusion on these finalists either, Buhler was better than both Scherzer and Burnes, but finishes 4th? These results are worse than the 1980’s and 90’s when the pitcher with the most wins automatically won.
Just the beginning of a bright future for Burnes.
No offense to the winners but you’re not going to win a championship with a starter who is a healthy Cy Young winner with less than 170 innings pitched and 11 wins.
Can you post the stats of the best starter on the team that DID win the championship? I want to see how much better they were than Burnes.
That’s an argument in itself. Fried? Anderson? Morton?
Probably Fried, but the Morton has a claim.
If all are healthy, Soroka.
Meaning the Braves actually won a championship with their ace throwing 0ip and winning 0 games.
Almost like it’s a team sport.
Upside, my opinion is more on the way the game is managed today. You may get to the playoffs but you normally burn out your staff getting there. Bullpen is tired and most starters aren’t prepared to go long. Just makes for long games with the pitching changed. Houston this year was the surprise difference in the second half of the Red Sox series but they didn’t win either. I still want the game to go back to 10-11 pitchers. They will have to learn how to pitch but in the long run the game will be better.
@deweybelongsinthehall, that was particularly true this year a season that followed 2020’s short schedule. Pitchers were thrown way off their normal routine and workload. It’s what scares me most about a possible work stoppage and abbreviated season in 2022. Pitchers being thrown off their game. It would be weird considering the pricey state of the current starting pitchers market.
If there’s a stoppage, next year there will be many more injuries and the pace of play will make the game unwatchable.
Yeah nobody needs a lock out right now, nobody
Brewers won 21 of the 28 games he pitched.
Huh?
Teams pitch between 1,350 and 1,450 innings per year.
You think a guy that pitches 20-25 innings more per year makes the difference in winning a championship?
To say nothing of the meaningless figure W-L numbers mean as bullpens are used far more often. A starters job for the last 10 years is to have his team in the game when his 100 (or so) pitch limit is hit.
With the offensive strategy being to foul off as many pitches as possible to get the pitcher out as early as possible.
That’s the way the game to some extent has always been played but the targeted number used to be 100 pitches. Now it’s for most the first of 80 pitches or twice through the lineup.
Only because of the way pitchers today simply throw as hard as they can and tire themselves out. Not baseball. The beauty of the game was Tom Seaver vs. Hank Aaron in the bottom of the 8th in a scoreless tie. Today, how many times would Seaver get to the 7th inning never mind the 8th?
Closest thing to a pitcher like Seaver is 40 year old Adam Wainwright who was pitching to good players in the bottom of the 8th and 9th this year in 2021, also threw 3 complete games and 1 shutout
Zack Wheeler finished his games too, only two who got cy votes who finished games they started in the NL in 2021
Best starter on the team that won the WS wasnt even standing at the end of the season. Thats unfair
mfw using wins in 2021
You’re not gonna win a championship with Corbin Burnes or Robbie Ray? That’s gotta be the dumbest take of the year, congrats.
I’m talking about the staff, not one player. You’re not winning a. championship after six grueling months when your staff is drained because they were not prepped to go the extra month + of the playoffs.
He was in a 6 man rotation all year and missed 2 starts in May because of Covid. If the Brewers had a traditional 5 man rotation and he not had covid. That’s 4 missed starts and 30 innings lost
Don’t forget they pulled him after 2 innings in his last start because the dodgers started hitting him and they had to preserve his numbers.
dodgerfan83, that is just wrong.
his last inning was a tap to the pitcher, swinging K, swinging K. Dodgers go down weakly 1-2-3.
they had no intention of him throwing more than 50 pitches. it was basically a throw day.
you couldn’t have been more wrong if you tried.
Great year for Ray. He did it by changing the offseason workout regimen and converted 25lbs of fat to 25lbs of muscle.
Let’s see if his conditioning and performance stay the same in 2022 and beyond.
He signed quickly with the Jays last off-season, I believe his reasoning was he wanted to continue to work with Pete Walker on the work they started after he was acquired the season before. Safe to say that work paid off, and hope it will give the Jays a bit of an inside track on re-signing him. I get this feeling if (when) he signs elsewhere, he will regress a bit back to his pre-Jay numbers.
I wonder about the Pete Walker effect… if there is one. Did it influence Barrios and help the Jays sign him at less than market rate? Ray and Matz certainly seem to point to Walker’s effectiveness as a pitching coach
It’s a good question. With those pitchers you mentioned, even Stripling to an extent has shown some strong starts, although inconsistent. Also Taijuan Walker was lights out when he pitched for the Jays, and seemed to regress a bit this year in NY. Whatever it was, it worked very well for Ray. A well-deserved Cy Young award winner who I will be sad to see leave the team.
Now resign with the jays because he’ll officially become Canada’s ass
Congrats to the Burnes and the Brewers…
Wheeler would’ve won if the braves were his team instead of those defenseless and joke of a bullpen Phillies, but it’s on him signing with them, he chose money and years instead of the hometown.
the right choices
Great to see new guys win it. Happy for them and their families!
Pitchers from the 2014 Tigers have now won eight Cy Young Awards. It would have been nine had Scherzer won in the National League.
Max Scherzer – 3
Justin Verlander – 2
Rick Porcello – 1
David Price – 1
Robbie Ray – 1
Great find!
Well…….
They seem to be developing the next batch.
Not really a find. The info followed the Ray announcement. By the way, I was the first person on this forum to criticize the Jays last November for giving $ million to that slug Robbie Ray. Oops.
Ray did offseason stuff that he never did before and might not ever do again. We’ll see. There was no way to call Robbie Ray’s 2021.
Cey Hey
Says a lot that you own it, many on here would back peddle or change their nick.
Verlander should have won over Porcello in 2016. But that wouldn’t change the number of Cy Youngs between that group.
In this starting pitchers market, I’m half-expecting someone to sign Porcello to a multi-year deal.
Ray, correct: Burnes, incorrect.
Walker Buehler not even being a finalist was doubly robbed.
Nah. I like Buehler but he had a rough stretch late in the season that probably took him out of the running.
1.63 FIP sealed the deal for Burnes.
Incredible for a Brewers pitcher. Way to go Corbin! He and Woody and Freddy did a really nice job this last season. Let’s hope they stay healthy and it’ll be fun to watch how their careers pan out!
Little known fact: Ray is the all-time career leader in K/9
Cause he walked so many people
Haha, I was going to post this, too. 15 of the top 20 in K/9 are active pitchers (Randy Johnson, Kerry Wood, Pedro, Nolan Ryan and Trevor Hoffman are the others).
That crown changes hands a lot. Darvish had the lead before 2020, then it was Sale before this season.
In 2016 I went out of my way to watch Corbin Burnes pitch for Saint Mary’s College of California:
portlandpilots.com/sports/baseball/stats/2016/sain…
I have no memory of Tony Gonsolin, the starting pitcher in the deciding game of the 2020 World Series, going 3-for-4 with a homer as the Gaels’ left fielder in that college game.;-)
Ray and Burnes are the winners. I roll my eyes when fans claim people are undeserving of awards they’ve already won. It’s the same when they say this Hall of Famer or that Hall of Famer doesn’t belong. Guess what? They’re already in and your opinion doesn’t matter. Why begrudge someone for an honor they worked hard for? Wouldn’t it be better to be happy for them?
Rick Porcello was undeserving of the Award in 2016. Shouldn’t have even been in the top 3.
Completely agree and I am a Sox fan. Porcello stole it from Verlander.
Should have been Happ in 2016
Human Beings debate things. All the time. That’s life. Accept it or drop your jaw and shake your head every time it happens……
One 20 game winner in all of the big leagues and no award.Wins are Scoreboard!Don’t get me wrong,I see the excellent stats.But Urias had more WINS then anyone.Only 5 pitchers had 15 wins or more.Burnes won 11 games!Burnes stats are not 9 wins better then Urias.Again Scoreboard,it’s all that matters after 9 innings,162 gms all the way to the World Series.Scoreboard!!!
Get that “20 game winner” out of here lumber and lighting! Pitcher wins are IRRELEVANT! And anyone who says differently belongs in an asylum.
They are not irrelevant. You have gone way overboard with that stance.
@ Cey Hey;
No. With the way baseball is played today, W-L is irrelevant.
The days of pitchers dueling one another into the late innings are gone – running pitch counts up to the 130’s, 150’s, and I even used to see some 170’s. Teams have been counting pitches, and seldom let a starter go much more than 100. W-L can occur if his team is ahead, behind or tied at that point – it has to do with what his offense did when he hit his pitch count limit.
What the Rays are doing – which will be the trendsetter or MLB in the coming 10 years – is to break up pitchers pretty much by how many pitches they can throw in an outing, and how many days rest they need between outings. Starters will become irrelevant, as seldom are 100 pitches all that’s needed to pitch 9 innings. In some cases it’s best to bring in your 100 pitch guy in the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th inning. That will depend on a lot of things – including the pitching the other team sees the first time through their order.
@Samuel W-L was always irrelevant. From the day baseball was invented. Not just today. That they didn’t have better stats yet doesn’t mean W-L mattered then. I’m sure good pitchers getting no run support or having a sucky defense behind them existed 100 years ago and vice versa.
’72 Carlton won 27 of the Phillies 59 games. The best of the best are going to win games for the team no matter how good or bad they are, 11 wins for a CY winner is very low. Burnes was only pitching every 6 days also so you have to consider how much Sherzer/Wheeler minor stats would’ve increased with the benefit of +1 day rest between every start
Yeah, literally has nothing to do with pitching ability
Sure it does. The object of the game is to win. And please, don’t use “literally” when it’s not needed.
It doesn’t. Earning a pitching win is completely out of starting pitchers hands. It is just as much based on the caliber of your teams offense and Bullpen as well.
@ Cey Hey;
Of course the object is to win.
Do we give players W-L stats in football, basketball, or hockey? Of course not. They have free substitution. The issue is who’s on the field, court, or ice when the game turns.
Many MLB FO’s are using players in the same way now. Look at the box scores, and notice how many position players and pitchers are being used each game. It’s all about matchup’s at a point in the game. That’s why these Depth Chart fantasy’s that come up here in the chatrooms are so out of date. A team is only as strong as its weakest link. And a players stats has nothing to do with who he’ll match up against at times when the game can be turned around by the team losing, or held by the team winning.
Dumb comment. Just plain dumb.
Actually, in hockey, we do.
@Cey Hey The object of the game might be to win but the win stat tells you nothing about whether the team won because of the pitcher or despite him.
@ whogg72;
Yes. but…..
In hockey you do for goaltenders. But they’re usually in for the entire game. And most teams have starting goaltenders that play almost every game. Current baseball starters pitch once every 5 games.
Last year in MLB there were 53 complete games of about 2,430 pitched. 0.021 %.
W’s are mostly a matter of timing. L’s are a bit more accurate, as a pitcher can get bombed in any inning and if his team doesn’t come back to tie he gets the L. Keep in mind that the pitcher starting the game cannot get a W unless he pitches 5 innings. On the other hand, he can get a loss even if he pitches less than 5 innings and his team never ties the score.
They aren’t completely irrelevant, especially when you have to typically give a quality start in order to Win a game. A starter with 20 games won, tells me that for a large portion of his starts, he pitched well enough to keep his team in the game.
That’s like saying a stat like quality starts doesn’t matter at all. Like all STATISTICS it is just a part of the picture. You combine those statistics with other statistics, and it helps you see the full picture alot more clearly.
Saying a stat like Wins, that still involves skill and a quality performance spread out over time, with longevity involved, doesn’t matter, and there is nothing to be gained from such a stat like a pitcher that Wins 20 games….Well, that’s just completely ignorant and quite frankly, it shows a lack of understanding, comprehension, and a lack of knowledge in general.
Or he’s a decent pitcher on a really good team. There are some surprisingly not dominant 20 game winners in MLB history.
@bravesfan88 Or MAYBE…
It means he was complete garbage but his team had a strong offense that was able to overcome his lacking performance.
And don’t try it with “pitching to the score.”
You’re a dummy if you think wins and losses don’t matter. I guess you never pitched a baseball game under any pressure. Dumb
@Barelybreathin Congratulations! You win dumb comment of the day! Your reward will be a lovely 1-week no-expenses paid trip to North Sentinel Island!
And this folks is how we get Rick Porcello Cy Youngs
Ewwww
There is no right or wrong way to determine who’s best. There are people who think Kirk Gibson shouldn’t have won the NL MVP in ’88 because of his numbers, even though he was mainly responsible for transforming a losing team into a winning one. If not for Gibson, the Dodgers would have been far back like they were in ’86 and ’87. By the time Hershiser began his scoreless streak, the Dodgers had the division well in hand. All because Gibson changed the losing culture Lasorda had developed. Yet people today peruse the numbers and think that MVP Award was a poor choice.
Whoops…..
Now you’re arguing against yourself when you note this as opposed to pitchers W-L records.
The other day a poster here responding to an award announcement wrote that the trouble with the voting (by human beings) was that is was “subjective”.
I LOL’ed!
Duh.
Funny how everyone always wants pitching but no one touched him with a 10 foot pole? He got Brett Lawrie’d out of the game because he’s not a good person.
In 2015, Drew Hutchison went 13-5 with a 5.57 ERA. Of 141 pitchers to throw 100+ innings that year, he had the 134th worst ERA. But he “won” 13 games. With only 6 guys pitching worse over than him over the season.
That same year, Shelby Miller went 6-17 with a 3.02 ERA – 15th best out of 141.
The difference? Run support. Pitcher “wins” are almost purely about run support behind them. Let’s move on.
The funny thing is Hutchison was the opening day starter that year, went 13-5, and was kicked out of the rotation for it in September and didn’t make the team the next spring. That’s how much good wins did him.
I will say this W-L doesn’t paint an accurate picture on whether a pitcher is dominant. If you factor in runs support for both Urias (6.23 runs per game) and Burnes (4.32) it shows you how Urias clearly benefited from above average run support.
I would also like to mention Zack Greinke won his Cy Young with a losing record and I haven’t heard anyone state he didn’t deserve his award in 2009.
You might want to check again Greinke was 16-8 in ’09
I think you might have confused him with Felix Hernandez in ’10 but even than he was 13-12
The cy young is an individual award not a team award.
And the win is a team stat not an individual stat
Urias wins 20 gms and 5 pitchers win 15 or more games.11 wins and Burnes stats are not better then 20 wins.Analysts doesn’t factor in scoreboard!
In the case of the voting the 11 wins is better than 20 and a team with triple the payroll. Dodgers need to win a legit World Series before they complain about 20 wins not winning. Dodger fans parade around like they really accomplished something when they won a 40% season.
Urias received 6.4 runs/IP in run support when he was in the game. Burnes received 3.9. This explains the win discrepancy..
Glad Robbie Ray won it. Had one beast of a season.
Degrom robbed
Metsfan22, is that you?
I’m stretching into MetsFan22 territory but could you imagine DeGrom had been healthy? He coulda not only won but had idk maybe 10 WAR? Just saying not bemoaning the fact
47IP 37H 20ER against playoff teams in the regular season for Burnes..
That’s not that bad, but also doesn’t really jump off the page either for a Cy Young Award winner.
Either way, congrats to him, he had a very good season, and hopefully he can continue to build off of it next season.
I have a feeling predominantly facing off against the Pirates, Cubs, and Reds will likely help his cause, but they’re still ML teams with ML lineups, and you still have to pitch well to get outs..
Same can be said for Braves pitchers against the Marlins and Nationals, and likewise for the Dodgers pitchers against the Rockies and D-Backs..
This type of situation analytics should be used more
Ck your stat history mr.irrelevant.I not even going to scold you.How many starting pitchers won 20 plus gms and how many won in the teens?Scoreboard!Analytics lose this one!
Cy Young is for winners,not 11 game pretender that can’t shut the door.Best RP in baseball closing for him.But still only 11 wins.Writers are going to be ragged hard in the future about this vote
Just curious we’re you also throwing a hissy fit like an old lady when Degrom was winning cy young awards with only 10 and 11 wins?
My apologies I had Greinke’s 2009 & 2010 seasons mixed up. But to be fair King Felix won a Cy Young award with only 13 wins and DeGrom won 10 and 11 games in his back to back Cy Young Award seasons.
The last starting pitcher in MLB who could shut the door was Roy Halladay. If they need to shut the door, better retire the award for the indefinite future.
Verlander? Kershaw? Wheeler?
First Brewers’ Cy Young winner since Vuke in ‘82. That’s pretty special.
It is pretty special! Let’s hope the Brewers can sign him and woodruff to long term contracts
No long term contracts. Trade Woodruff this offseason or next for a top 5-10 pitching prospect & offense. Ride Burnes to FA for the pick or trade offseason of 23 after team wins a WS. They also have Freddy Peralta for the next 5 seasons, another future potential TOR in Aaron Ashby, former 1st round pick Ethan Small & 3 more years of Adrian Houser & Eric Lauer, 2 more prime-aged pitchers with sub 4 ERA’s. That’s a lot of elite controlled pitching to go with a farm system left alone for the last 45 months that’s getting closer to burst with high impact position prospects. The Brewers & Rays aren’t going anywhere for quite some time.
I like the egressive strategy. I though would sign one of Burnes/Woodruff to a longer term deal to solidify at least one guy for the next few years. Then trade Hader and sign a closer type because I have a feeling Devin Williams won’t be able to close
Wow. That’s wild. I didn’t think it’d been that long. Good for the Brew Crew. Well deserved.
I’m glad it wasn’t Cole. Other than that, congrats to everyone but I didn’t have a dog in the eace
What are the chances that Ray and Cole are in the same rotation next year? Pretty good, I think though the Red Sox and Angels are likely in the bidding too,. I’d go with those 3 as the major contenders, White Sox an outside possibility.
Just imagine, if the Brewers had signed RR last off-season like a bunch of people predicted or wanted, we could have had both the AL & NL Cy winners…
If you told me a few years ago that either of those two would finish In the top 35 I’d say your wrong. Also WTF?!!! Robbie Ray and Corbin Burnes?
You’d say my what is wrong?
Does Ray look to get Bauer’s numbers with a Cy Young award at the perfect time entering free agency?
You’re a tool. Have a good night.
What’s his number today opposed to yesterday?
Using K/9 and all the other “not nearly as important” stats to decide these things is absolutely dumb.
Quality Starts should be the biggest stat used among finalists, and that wasn’t even close…
Burnes didn’t even reach 170 innings and pitched some 40-45 innings less than Wheeler and Buehler and his ERA was only .barely better than Max and Walker (.03 and .04). But what should be the biggest indicator was totally ignored which is QS and it is why leaving Buehler out of the top 3 was a major fubar.
Quality Starts/Games Started:
Burnes: (18/28)- pretty weak
Scherzer (18/30)- even worse
Wheeler (20/32)- meh
Buehler (27/33)- by far the most consistent of the contenders
Judging it more about SO/9(who cares how they get the outs- that shouldn’t matter) and HRA (dumb) over QS and ERA or BAA (Corbin was third behind the two Dodger hurlers on that stat as well as even Woodruff beat him in opponents batting average) is just ignorance
A “quality start” is at least 6 innings pitched and 3 earned runs or less. Which is a 4.50 era. Quality start is a joke stat.
Agree – its a stat invented by the union to make players look better than they are. As a longtime fan heres my definition – at least 7 innings with fewer than 3 earned runs and WHIP LE 1
QS is not a useless stat, it is actually an excellent indicator of how often a SP “kept his team in a game” and “performed well”- which beats in any individual SO/9 (how he got his outs) or HRA/9, etc meaningless indicators.
Sure, you could argue that the 6/3 format should change…to perhaps 7/2…but that only magnifies my point.
Starts/Starts with 7 IP and 2 ER or less: and WHIP of 1 or less
Buehler: 33/13 (39% of the time
Burnes 28/7 (25% of the time)
Wheeler 32/12 (34%)
Scherzer 30/10 (33%)
The winner was a distant 4th using that metric as well. Dude simply didn’t pitch as much as the rest and wasn’t nearly as effective night in and night out as they were….
Wheeler is a dying breed as an innings work horse. The expectations for starting pitchers nowadays seems to be 25 starts and 150 innings and record pay days for doing so
I’m a Padres fan and have no love for the Dodgers, but it’s a bad joke that neither Bueler, Scherzer or Urias didn’t receive a first place vote amongst them. They were dominant all year. This new woke baseball is sad.
Burnes led the league in everything, stop caring about second place votes, it literally doesnt matter.
Not wins. He had 11. Not worthy of CY. A bad joke.
Pitcher wins are the most useless stat in all of pro sports, I deny them. They don’t matter, at all, and they don’t even make sense if the pitcher doesnt throw a CG. If Burnes had a good defense behind him he might have came close to Pedro’s 2000 season aka the best season in history.
Scherzer got a bunch of 1st place votes, so you really arent making any sense at all. Why even post if you arent participating in reality?
You’re the person saying wins don’t matter and you question my posts? You must be woke. If you don’t value wins you don’t value winning. Idiocy.
giphy.com/gifs/mcdonaldsczsk-reaction-clown-xUOxf9…
Scherzer got 6 1st place votes, btw
Imagine if Burnes played on a team that valued defense? 1.63 FIP goes to a 1.21 ERA or something.
Where have you gone, Tom Seaver? Steve Carlton? Juan Marichal? Ferguson Jenkins?
Burnes – barely qualified
Ray – journeyman
The state of MLB starting pitching is pathetic.
Actually, in hockey, we do.
I was kind of hoping Ranger Saurez would get a few down ballot votes. He was money both starting and relieving. His value to the Phillies was close to immeasurable this season.
Totally onboard with Ray as the AL Cy Young after Cole faded post his hamstring issue in September. Ray first, Cole second, as the vote overwhelming showed, was correct. I’m less on board with Burnes in the NL. He had great stats, no knock, but he was gifted with a six-man rotation and pitched significantly less innings. Wheeler had 28% more innings as a starter. That’s a staggering amount and extremely beneficial to the rest of the rotation and bullpen over the course of a season. That’s an ace. Wheeler’s 7.7 rWAR blows Burnes’ 5.7 out of the water, and B-R’s WAR is generally preferable for pitching awards since it’s more indicative of what happened, not predicting what might happen in the future. Even at that, there was only a hair between the two’s fWAR. The NL Cy vote was an indication of how many voters are simply defaulting now to specific advanced stats without really looking at the complete picture. All NL nominees had fine years, but the wrong guy won.
To me, it doesn’t feel as if any of the nominees in either leagues is a CY Young winner. Perhaps we should rethink giving awards and rather than give them because it is done every year, we should accept non-CY Young years.
I’m sorry, but I’ll never understand how these people vote?? They’re pitchers on this list with better numbers that did not win.. more IP, less HRs given up, higher WAR, better ERA, etc. what the hell are they looking at when putting in a vote? The pitchers hair style and beard? What’s with all these made up advanced stats? What happened to voting for a pitcher based on ERA, W-L, strikeouts, IP, total HRs givin up, you know.. stats that actually matter. I’m sorry, but this is just stupid to me.
Who should have one the Cy Youngs in your opinion?
Well, Robbie Ray led the AL in three of the “stats that matter” that you mentioned: IP, ERA, and K … so 2/3 of the Triple Crown.
Sure he gave up a few longballs, but Ray also happened to pace the AL in pitchers’ bWAR, K/9, H/9, BB/9 (!), Adjusted ERA+, Adj Piching Wins, Adj Pitching Runs, re24, WPA, and REW.
So … maybe the voters were looking at some of that?
There wasn’t a starting pitcher in the AL with a better ERA than Robbie Ray, and no starter in the NL with a better ERA than Corbin Burnes, so what the hell are you on about?
Never thought I’d live to see the day where 2 relief pitchers win the cy young in the same season…
Well.
That went well. What were we talking about again?
Oh yeah…the Cy Young. Good choices. No complaints. Everything is fine.
Honestly, Wheeler was the correct choice. I’m sure Milwaukee’s front office would agree as Burnes arb numbers just went up. Milwaukee was already broke now they are selling stuff broke.
Wheeler was absolutely robbed.
Robbie is about to get PAID !
Deserving, yes but I think Sherzer was more deserving
To my unerstanding, the Cy Young is to be given to the best pitcher of each league on a yearly basis. In my humble opinion, the best pitcher is the one who demonstrates the most sustained dominance. There are few six-inning performances that we should consider “gems”. Innings pitched, complete games and shutouts are strong indicators of sustained dominance. One of these outstanding talents lead their league in all three catagories, while the other laid goose eggs in the latter two. Robbed.
As if Ray’s price wasn’t high before…
We’ll never know what Burnes would do at 200+ innings. Maybe his arm falls off, or if you believe in projections he’d have almost 300ks. He was more dominant in his smaller sample size tho. Would Wheeler have been better if the Phillies sucked less? Could of had 20+ wins. But Burnes at the EOD gets the nod from me.
burnes had 8 starts with 10 or more strikeouts.
in those starts, 96 strikeouts to just 5 walks (an 19.2 to 1 ratio).
lower it to 9 strikeouts, you get 14 starts, 150 strikeouts to just 8 walks (a 18.75 to 1 ratio).
don’t care he only tossed 167 innings, that’s damn impressive (and that’s half his starts with 9 or more strikeouts)
ROY-Trevor Rogers & A.Garcia … Arozarena had protection,Garcia did his damage with the shelf empty around him.Trevor Rogers is the best rookie I watched all yr….CY-Ray & Urias Ray was dominating & Urias is mlb only 20 game winner MVP-Ohtani & Riley NL is a very tough call so I’ll go with the Champs and give respect.Riley had a better yr then Freeman and Albies.Ohtani is something very special! How about your prognosis on the award circuit?
This is one of those years Cy-Young was wide open. I believe Cole lost it when he struggled down the stretch but looking at just raw stats he has an argument.
I always go back to 1990 when Welch was not the best pitcher. His BB/K was 77/127. What stuck out is he won 27 games. All his other numbers weren’t as dominate as Clemens or Stewart.
baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1990.shtml
It’s bittersweet seeing Robbie Ray win the CY knowing that he wouldn’t have been able to do the same thing if he was still with the DBacks. I’m still happy for the dude, but that now makes Scherzer, Bauer, and Ray as CYs that got away.
Plus Scherzer, Corbin, Pollock, Swanson, and Inciarte all have rings now. Here’s to hoping that Goldy can get a ring and an MVP with the Cardinals; if we’re gonna see everybody succeed after leaving AZ, I’d certainly love to see Goldschmidt get his day in the sun.
If you extend this further… if the Diamondbacks left AZ they’d probably win the WS the next year.
They won because the nerds ruined baseball.