Less than 16 hours after the last out of the World Series, the Reds and Tigers got a quick start to their offseason by swinging a trade that sent catcher Tucker Barnhart to Detroit for infield prospect Nick Quintana. It was “a very difficult decision” for Reds GM Nick Krall, yet Barnhart’s $7.5MM club option for 2022 proved to be a major factor in determining the end of Barnhart’s long tenure in Cincinnati.
“Having been drafted and developed by the Reds, our entire organization has a connection to [Barnhart], and our fans love him,” Krall told reporters, including Bobby Nightengale of The Cincinnati Enquirer. “But going into 2022, we must align our payroll to our resources and continue focusing on scouting and developing young talent from within our system.”
These words surely won’t be welcomed by Reds fans, and yet Krall’s statement merely vocalizes what has been pretty apparent for the last year-plus — the Reds are cutting back on their spending. Last winter’s trade of Raisel Iglesias and non-tender of Archie Bradley were the early signs that the Reds’ payroll increases in 2018 and 2019 hit their peak with the 2020 season, as the team made the postseason but quickly bowed out in the wild card round.
There was some baseball logic to the Barnhart trade, however, as the Reds do have a ready-made catching replacement in Tyler Stephenson, who has hit well in 422 MLB plate appearances and looks deserving of a larger role. With a quality younger (and cheaper) player waiting in the wings, retaining Barnhart may have been less crucial than committing his $7.5MM to other roster needs. “I think it’s something that this move did not make sense from where we were with payroll. We had to make sure we made the adjustment,” Krall said.
This doesn’t mean that the Reds will be going into fire sale mode, the GM noted. “It’s going to be more of a wait-and-see, but I don’t think we’re not going to sign players on the free-agent market,” Krall said. What isn’t yet clear is just what Cincinnati’s payroll will look like in 2022. As per Roster Resource, the Reds have just under $128MM on the books for next season, a notable step down from the record $149MM they were prepared to spend in 2020 before the pandemic led to prorated salaries.
It doesn’t seem as though the Reds will spend much beyond that $128MM mark, which is a concern given the number of areas that have to be addressed. Standing pat isn’t really an option for team with this many needs, and it could be that the Reds might try to unload another of their current higher-priced players in order to either free up more money, or perhaps to take on another pricier player that better fits what Cincinnati needs on the roster.
Just trade everyone. No point. You’re right. This isn’t what Reds fans want to hear. We’re screwed until our three 30+ 1B drop off thr payroll (Votto, Moustakas, Suarez).
I feel bad for Reds fans. I figured something like this would happen when they jumped the gun on their rebuild. The team just wasn’t ready yet. Some of those trades for guys like Puig and Wood were bad ones. Paying Moose that much money wasn’t smart. Teams with consistently high payrolls can make up for mistakes like that with more money but not a team like the Reds who never spend over $150 million. The players they had at the time just weren’t ready yet to be the core that the additions could push over the top. I’m still a little surprised it’s going backwards so quickly though. All they got was 1 playoff appearance and only had that because it was a season where 16 teams made the playoffs. Pretty disappointing rebuild. The main problem may be the front office or even the owner. Maybe one day they will sell the team to someone who has a lot more money and spends it much more wisely.
The problem has always been the FO
The Puig/Wood deal wasn’t a bad trade. They traded wasted Salary (Bailey) for those two guys. It was a wash. Puig produced way more that year than Bailey did.
The deals that are hurting them are the Moustakas deal (Which didn’t seem like a good deal for them on day 1) and even dumping $21mill into Shogo.
Suarez’s salary isn’t terrible. I still think he comes back to form a little bit next year.
Ultimately I just wish they would go for it or trade any piece they have making north of $5mill. The middle of the road game has never worked.
Bailey didn’t make that trade terrible lol it was Jeter downs and josiah gray that made it an awful trade for the reds.
What detailed the Reds push to building a playoff team was COVID with
No fans. It has been mentioned that the Team lost $50 million that year which hit the small market Reds hard . Also the wasteful signings of Akiyama and Moustakas didn’t help
The whole system needs fixing. Almost impossible for small market teams to compete. New GM or new owner will not fix the problem. Teams should not have to salary dump and be able to keep their best players on the payroll.
Drafting Senzel 1-2 ended up hurting them as well. It looked like it made sense at the time so maybe they just messed him up by having switch positions all the time. In hindsight though I think the Reds would have rather taken Ian Anderson. He went the very next pick. Anderson just finished being one of the best pitchers in the playoffs and he still has at least 4 or 5 years left on his rookie contract. He seems to have ace written all over him and that many years of an ace caliber pitcher has to be considered better than Senzel.
Hello Missed. Yes I agree it is hindsight. If any team would know any particular player whose body was more susceptible to injury or would experience a string of bad luck they would indeed not take that player. Sadly small market teams in a effort to maximize their dollars for their budget mess with players natural positions. Perhaps the team that took Anderson might have decided to take Senzel if the Reds had passed. As I recall he was one of the most polished college hitters on the board and projected to make the majors sooner than later.
$118 mil were given to each team in 2018 in revenue sharing! $100 million lower threshold with hefty penalties for going below that figure.
2018 was a long time ago buddy
So with the rise in inflation it makes his point even more.
Go back in your cave, troll.
If the Reds decide to go full teardown and rebuild mode, they have enough pieces that I don’t think they’d be out of contention for more than 3 or so years. Tyler Mahle, Luis Castillo, Wade Miley, and Jesse Winker could completley replenish the farm system. Sonny Gray should bring back something decent. If anything, they definitley need to capatalize on Tyler Naquin.
Reds equal rinse and repeat every other year
How can they replenish the farm system when they can’t even scout properly. Today trade was a fine example. NOTHING
Yep, this can’t be the FO in charge of replenishing the farm system. As a baseball fan, it makes me sick to see a team give away a quality player at a premium position. Credit the Tigers for knowing who to call. Barnhart is just what the doctor ordered for their young pitching staff.
To be fair Quintana was a top prospect up until this year and was a good player in college he just hasn’t done anything since making it to the tigers
sounds like something a politician would say
Krall 2024
Don’t blame me, I voted for Kodos
Well, Mr. Krall, now that you mention it, we happen to have some….flexibility in that area. How much for Castillo, good sir?
Cashman should be on the phone yesterday trying to make an agreement with the Reds FO. C’mon Cash, don’t be scared of improving…… please?
Translation; Get excited for intentional losing, Reds fans!
Fans should be excited about that given the success of the Astros, Cubs and Braves.
We would except that the Cincinnati FO has tried this for 8 years and failed hard. No reason to believe that they will manage a rebuild properly. I stomached them winning 60 games a year for 4-5 years because I expected sunny times after. But a quick wildcard exit and a whiff in a weak division later we’re back to a rebuild. That’s not a success.
Trashtros don’t win anything without being trash. So no credit for their dumpster years turning into a success
Garbage in, Garbage out…the Reds won’t go nowhere until we get a better owner that wants to invest in the team. This will just turn fans away, then they can’t figure out why. Are they really that stupid? Moustakis and Suarez were a bust of over $60 million. To me it seems like if Castellini doesn’t make a sizable profit he wants to tear tear the team apart like he did after 2020 by trading Iglesias for trash and releasing Archie Bradley.
At the time Suarez had a steal of a contract. He never fully recovered from the shoulder surgery he had before spring training 2020. I’d give him another chance this year. If he rebounds decently enough then you have Suarez, votto, India, winker, Stephenson, and probably naquin. That’s not a bad 2/3rds of your lineup. Only 1 more year of shogo’s horrible contract. I think their pitching will improve next year.
Agreed, at one time that Suarez contract was one of the best in baseball, unfortunately he hasn’t hit after the shoulder surgery. The Moose and Akiyama contracts were garbage from the beginning. Moose was an overpay at a position they didn’t need. Akiyama was a revert to their previous obsession to signing low power contact hitters in an era of power hitting and launch angles, only to end up with a leadoff hitter who can’t get on base
Hi WHeitzman. Moose as I recall was highly sought after respected free agent at the time and don’t see signing him was garbage. An overpay yes, should the Reds have signed him, no, not at that salary. Not for a team like the Reds which is my main point. Akiyama was a gamble because the Reds were desperate for a leadoff hitter for such a long time. I remember many posters at the time who were fans of other teams bemoaning the fact that their team did not go after Akiyama. I don’t think we would be having this conversation if both players had worked out well. Bottom line is Reds can not afford to take chances with bigger risky contracts. Anyway nice chatting with you.
$128M payroll, free agent signings, extensions on players, etc.
You don’t realize how good you have it.
Don’t give up on Suarez yet. Shoulders don’t heal quick and there’s a good chance he came into this year still rehabbing. Moose was a bust but they paid for what he did, not what he will do. That gets you every time.
They are still close, as Moose and Suarez can’t be hot trash like this again, Moose was playing on 1 foot all year. He’ll bounce back..
Keep Givens to close but be ready with the rest of the guys in case, find another starter, and Lodolo and Greene get close to being the cavalry. Keep Castellanos…Senzel has to revert to mean a little…there was a lot of misfortune this past year that isn’t likely to repeat.
I’d rather they find a SS from the outside than try and hatch Garcia early.
“but I don’t think we’re not going to sign players on the free-agent market,” Krall said.
With the double negatives, does that mean he does think they will sign free agents?
Translation: Sonny Gray will be traded for next to nothing, especially if they can unload Eugenio Suarez or Mike Moustakas with him
How about a Moose for Didi trade? Two bad contract swaps. The Reds would have to add a little because Moose’s contract is more years and slightly more money.
Castillo to Seattle.
Hi all. I have been saying this for a while now. Small market teams or owners who can not or will not invest the money to get the players who will get them to the playoffs will rarely succeed. It would take a great deal of luck and the right combination of players at the right times. To the Reds credit they tried. Overpaying for Moustakas and Castellanos (opt out clauses which is equally as risky). Suarez was a bright star when given the contract extension. It is a double edged sword. Small market teams must overpay for premium players because all things being equal salary wise who would a player rather go to, a losing team or a winning one? And if injury or anything else that causes a players production to go down then the small market team is stuck. If they do not try to sign premium players then the fan base becomes upset and loses interest.
IMO in the large scheme of things it is not the Reds who are broken it is baseball. I guess I will continue to be a Reds fan and hope that we get lucky and find just the right combination of players and hope they can stay healthy or otherwise trade away our assets for young promising cost controlled talent and put away the extra money in a trust fund if you will for that eventuality when good young players become really good older players and want a nice raise.
A’s, Cardinals, Rays, Indians seem to put together good teams pretty much every year. Reds not so often. Pirates rarely.
With Competitive Balance picks, small market teams get an additional high draft pick every year. Some do a better job than others.
Owners and GMs differ in will and ability.
You are right about small market. 30th largest MSA in the us, there are 7 that are larger that do not have a baseball team. Only 3 smaller MLB markets than Cincinnati. But you may not be as small as it seems. Not only a historical franchise, but you have Dayton just up the road, plus you pull fans from Columbus and Indianapolis as well. So the Reds reach is actually a lot larger than their local population would suggest.
But the issue is still a valid one. Money does not guarantee winning, it just increases the odds. And for teams that do not have the money they have little margin for error. For every A’s and Rays, there is a Reds, Pirates, Brewers, Royals who has occasional success but because of the economics that success is usually not sustainable
Time to rebuild the rebuild of the rebuild. Maybe they just need to sign a few more 3B
Suarez was a good signing at the time. Mousakes and akiyama we’re not. Maybe flip akiyama to the Phillies for Didi. See if Yankees want to part with 4 years of Aaron Hicks for 2 years of Moustakes and amir Garrett. Senzel can DH if that gets added to the National league for 2022. Move guiterez to the bullpen. Let castellanos leave and bring Miley back for one more. Rotation of Castillo, Sonny Gray, Miley, Greene and Lobodo. Bullpen has Wilson, guiterez, cessa, warren, sims, and 3 to 4 others to be determined. It’s not great but it’s reality as long as the owner doesn’t want to shell out any more money
Garrett is getting non-tendered. Agree on the Moose and Akiyama deals. Suarez will bounce back. Need to replace Castellanos with something besides Aaron Hicks though.
When fans make comments like, “who cares, it’s not my money”, in response to people saying that a team over paid for a player …this is why you should care. Budgets are a thing, teams don’t have infinity money and a bad signing one year can lead to tough decisions in future years.
Budgets are only this low because of greed.
Oh cool, so you have detailed information on the revenue and expenditures of every major league team? Please share. I know you wouldn’t propose such a statement while also being completely ignorant of the actual figures you’re commenting on.
It’s pretty simple math and assessment
In the last 8 years alone the reds have effectively doubled the value of their franchise, from 550 mil to 1.1bil (according to forbes)
In 2019 ( 2020 shortened season, 2021 not public yet) their revenue was 276 mil. Their mlb payroll that year was 127 mil.
Even if you factor an operating and business budget, including payroll, of 50 million(which would be high) they are clearing around 100mil in profit per year, give or take 10%.
So 100mil a year profit, plus the roughly 65mil per year the franchise value is increasing (+550 over 8 years).
So ya castellini has made about 750 mil on evaluation since he purchased the team in 06 while making 70-110 of profit per year.
So explain to me why the reds need to be lean and shouldn’t carry a payroll in the 150-180 range each year?
Also this is not exclusive to the reds, it goes for most teams.
I irrationally want Joey Votto to hit behind vladdy and in front of Teo.
But positionally and financially it makes no sense. I just love Joey Votto so much
I’d rather try and fail than not try at all. They still have enough pieces to retool and contend in a year or two.
The reality is the one thing that pisses me off is we our wasting Joey Votto’s HOF career on a bum Reds owner. His loyalty is out of this world. So this is what I suggest our the 3 most LOGICAL OPTIONS (NOT REALISTIC)
1. Fire Sale….Trade JOEY VOTTO, Sonny Gray, Luis Castillo, Tyler Mahle, Winker, Naquin, Cessa (maybe), Farmer (probably he has value), Maybe some bullpen options, but realistically without ranting you would build your team’s farm system and many young arms, young guys would play, TJ Friedel, Nick Senzel, Jose Barrero, Moose and suarez (will dh and 3b because they can’t trade them) India, Stephenson will be your team which isn’t horrible, but it would definitely be a full on fire sale, I think this won’t happen because then I would think Barnhart would stay to help the young staff, if that makes sense. All Im saying is if this happens I read a comment of votto hitting behind vladdy, Not gonna lie I would be a Blue Jays fan lmao, anyways if he gets traded I want him to win a ring he deserves it so ******* badly.
2. They ACTUALLY FULL SEND TO GET VOTTO THAT RING
Rotation Castillo, Mahle, Miley, Gray, (could do 5,6 starter with Greene, lodolo, reliever, Vladdy, they just got many options.
Bullpen Add a closer, Graveman, Rosenthal, any veteran who can shut the door, also resign Givens. (Personal opinion non tender garret and resign him for cheap, (YES HE HAD A HORRIBLE YEAR, but I think he will bounce back big time). For the most part warren, santilla (could start, but he is SO good in the bullpen.) Bullpen I really am not that worried about if we would have had this bullpen in May-June we probably would have been the division leader at least wildcard.
As of TODAY we have so many internal options we don’t even need really for the pitching side. Finally our lineup is pretty good. I would like nick back, and if you want a cheaper option then I recommend you at the very least get a power outfielder, and graveman, you can’t even do anything in the infield. My best bet is if EVERYTHING WAS what I dreamed for without completely selling your prospects this is it. 1. India 2b 2. Naquin OF 3. Winker OF 4. Castallanos OF 5. Votto 1B 6. Stephenson C (7,8,9) I really don’t care 3b Suarez/Moose,/ DHMoose Suarez (7,8 in order) 9. Barrero (if its kyle I might make him hit behind Stephenson)
I just wanna say Senzel probably will get playing time, I hope aquino is non tendered. He is a good hitter of lefties, but I don’t know, I just would rather see someone else he hasn’t done much.
When I say full send I don’t even mean do that much really, all they literally need is KEEP givens, get a veteran closer, KEEP CASTALLANOS!!!! If they did this they would be just fine,
MY PREDICTION is Suarez and moose will have more normal seasons, both were injured and I think it will boost the lineup alot especially with the DH, I could be wrong, but I am confident they are veterans who will bounce back (moose if your reading this put down the twinkies and hit the cardio machines). I think Votto (my favorite player) will decline a little in numbers. I for the most part we should see big things, if Nick isn’t signed then I can see TJ getting the job, or some cheaper outfielder.
im probably just ranting at this point but here is the line up rotation and bullpen i EXPECT to see (no two people will be at a spot all opinion).
FWI I FIRMLY believe nick won’t resign (cuz of bobby boy) Understand Farmer and Barrero will fight it out and barrero might play OF
1. India 2B
2. Tyler Naquin CF _Senzel
3. Jesse Winker LF
4. Joey Votto 1B
5. Tyler Stephenson C
6. Eugenio Suarez 3B
7. Farmer SS _Barraro
8. TJ RF
9. moose DH
Rotation 1. Luis Castillo 2. Wade Miley 3. Sonny Gray 4. Tyler Mahle 5. Vladdy
(Understand Reiver might start, I think greene and lodolo will make it later in the year June-July I am predicting)
Bullpen Idk 7-8 1. Santilla 2. Luis Cessa 3. Justin wilson (not 100% but most likely) 4. Lucas Sims (will be closer without anyone else signed) 5-8 I don’t know really I hope they resign garret for the sole fact he is going to be better he has the stuff.
Hopefully they can sign givens, but if they don’t resign them and lorenzen (which I doubt lorenzen, so I am betting the bullpen could be a big problem. 4 bullpen pieces that are good, but they really need to jump on the bullpen if they decide not to full send on a big bat in the outfield
Bench IDK shrock, akiyama, TJ, Senzel really unknown for now.
In conclusion I can’t wait for the season to start, hopefully Bob can give us our missing pieces in the bullpen at the very least. Should be a fun season, If Suarez and moose can play average I think very well with a little luck we can win the division.
Overall I think It will be a fun year, Sad to see Tucker gone, but had to be done to get rid of salary and let your young gun get his shot, but I liked the depth before.
PLEASE JUST STAY HEALTHY, and as always BOB SELL THE TEAM, or give it to me
Is that $128M payroll before or after picking up the option on Wade Miley?
Castellini should sell this team. He simply doesn’t want to spend the money to compete on a consistent basis.