The White Sox’ deadline acquisition of Craig Kimbrel in exchange for second baseman Nick Madrigal and reliever Codi Heuer was one of the highest-profile deals swung by any team this past July, but the move simply didn’t pan out as hoped for the South Siders. Kimbrel struggled almost immediately following a crosstown move to Guaranteed Rate Field and never really regained his footing with his new club.
It puts the ChiSox in a bit of a bind. GM Rick Hahn and his staff paid a heavy price to acquire Kimbrel but now must determine whether to double down on that investment by picking up a $16MM club option for the 2022 season or cut their losses and decline the option — effectively parting with the well-regarded Madrigal with little to show for it. The current plan, tweets USA Today’s Bob Nightengale, is to exercise the option and explore the trade market for Kimbrel over the winter. That’s an approach that merits a closer look.
First and foremost, the extent of Kimbrel’s rebound with the Cubs early in the season shouldn’t be understated. While his first two seasons as a Cub were largely disastrous, the 2021 Cubs version of Kimbrel looked every bit like the vintage All-Star hitters had come to fear from 2010-18. Kimbrel pitched 36 2/3 innings with the Cubs and worked to a microscopic 0.49 ERA with 23 saves in 25 attempts.
Of course, his dominance went well beyond those oft-misleading baseline numbers. Kimbrel notched an astonishing 46.7 percent strikeout rate against a 9.5 percent walk rate. His average fastball ticked back up from 96.7 mph in 2020 to 97.2 mph with the Cubs this year. His 18.7 percent swinging-strike rate and 34.8 percent opponents’ chase rate with the Cubs both would have been the third-best marks he’d posted in any single season of his career. Kimbrel faced 137 hitters as a Cub this year, and Statcast credited his opponents with just three barreled balls. He allowed just one home run.
Kimbrel was, in virtually every sense, one of the most dominant pitchers in all of Major League Baseball. The cost of acquisition reflected that, too. While Madrigal was already lost for the season due to a full tear of his hamstring that required surgery, he’s a former No. 4 overall pick and consensus Top 100 prospect whom the Cubs will now control for five more years — through the 2026 campaign.
Beyond that remaining club control, Madrigal has batted .317/.358/.406 with a minuscule 7.4 percent strikeout rate in 324 MLB plate appearances thus far. Lack of power notwithstanding, he’s a ready-made everyday player who’ll be expected to hit atop the Cubs’ lineup for a half decade. Heuer, meanwhile, had pitched to a 1.52 ERA in 23 2/3 innings as a rookie in 2020 before scuffling in his sophomore effort with the Sox. The Cubs can control him through at least 2025.
Suffice it to say, there was a bit of surprise with the strength of the Cubs’ return. Had Kimbrel maintained his dominance, however, he’d have given the White Sox the best one-two bullpen punch in all of baseball alongside Liam Hendriks. With the Sox eyeing a deep postseason run and, at the time, enjoying strong results from a deep and talented rotation (headed by a resurgent Carlos Rodon), Kimbrel looked like an addition that could give manager Tony La Russa an almost unfair pitching staff to carry into the playoffs.
Instead, Kimbrel quickly took steps in the wrong direction. He tossed a pair of perfect innings in his first two appearances with the Sox before being tagged for three runs and saddled with a blown save in his third outing. That kicked off a stretch that saw Kimbrel surrender runs in five of ten outings, and by the time the regular season had concluded, he’d been scored upon in nine of 24 appearances with the Sox. After allowing just one homer with the Cubs, he served up five with the Sox. His average fastball dropped from 97.2 mph to 96.0 mph. His strikeout rate fell from 46.7 percent to 36.7 percent. After holding opponents to an 88.7 mph average exit velocity with the Cubs, Kimbrel yielded a 92.8 mph average exit velocity following the trade.
Things didn’t go much better in the postseason. Kimbrel was greeted by a Kyle Tucker home run and charged with two earned runs in two-thirds of an inning in Game 2 of the ALDS. In all, he pitched two innings and allowed three runs (two earned) without punching out any of the 11 Astros hitters he faced.
The stark decline raises the question of whether Kimbrel would have much surplus value to be shopped on the trade market. It’s certainly possible that’s the case, but it’s also no longer looking like a lock. Kimbrel’s end-of-season 2.26 ERA is still excellent, as are his 2.43 FIP and 2.23 SIERA. While his strikeout rate dropped with the Sox, a 36.7 percent mark is still brilliant — and his season-long 42.6 percent clip is legitimately elite. Kimbrel became more homer prone and battled some control issues — his walk rate rose slightly, and all three of his hit batters this season came with the Sox — but he was still a flamethrower who could miss bats at a premium level.
The question in assessing his value is whether he’d top that $16MM mark on the open market. After all, in order for a club to not only acquire Kimbrel but also part with any sort of meaningful young talent, the rival front office would need to believe that Kimbrel is underpriced. If one were to simply look at Kimbrel’s cumulative numbers, a one-year, $16MM deal in free agency is something he could easily be expected to surpass. However, when the bulk of the damage against him came in the final two months and lingered into the postseason, it becomes far less certain. It’s possible Kimbrel could generate some strong two-year offers — probably at an annual value lower than next year’s $16MM mark — but many teams would surely prefer a hearty one-year deal (perhaps in the same range as his current salary).
For teams in the latter bucket, it’s likely they just don’t view Kimbrel as a highly palatable trade chip — at least not to the extent that they’d give up a meaningful prospect. It’s certainly plausible that Kimbrel could be swapped out for another expensive veteran — speculatively speaking, the Rays had interest in Kimbrel at the deadline and figure to again be open to moving Kevin Kiermaier and his comparable salary — but the Sox aren’t likely to find a team willing to part with a top prospect or controllable young big leaguer. Whatever route Hahn and his staff take, it seems there’s a chance Kimbrel’s tenure with the team will be short-lived.
clrrogers
The Blue Jays need to add to their pen. Maybe they can swing a trade for him if his option is picked up.
bigdaddyt
Romano is currently better though
The Mets "Missed WAR"
Have you guys ever heard of this conspiracy about “lizard people?” How some people think that a lot of famous people are actually aliens that naturally look like lizards but can change forms into humans? I personally think it’s all a bunch of conspiracy theory nonsense. But… I can tell you this with absolute certainty: If “lizard people” actually do exist, Tony La Russia is definitely a lizard person. I mean, Christ… Just look at him.
Yankee Clipper
Dude, I’ll tell you what, for sure the older he gets the more he looks like 75-year-old Johnny Cash. I’m going conspiracy theory
Dexxter
Grichuk would be similar to Kiermaier. Less defensive value but more power. and owed a little more money but over 2 years instead of 1.
cookmeister 2
I still can’t believe the Sox gave up Madrigal for Kimbrel
DodgerNation
Same. I saw that and about fell out of my seat laughing at how insane that price was
afsooner02
Really? This is the same team that traded Tatis Jr for James Shields….
Shields went 16-35 with a 5.31 era for the Sox.
Luke Nowak
Not really a fair comparison tho, cause at the time tatis was pretty much a 17 year old nobody, it’s not like anyone really predicted he would turn out this great. Madrigal tho had already proven himself in the majors
CluHaywood
@Luke Nowak literally no one that understands baseball even a tiny bit, makes the argument afsooner02 is trying to make. Tatis wasn’t even in the top 30 international draft class. And the trade was for Erik Johnson, with Tatis Jr. as a lottery ticket. Padres won the lottery.
The Madrigal trade made some sense, but looks much worse when he clearly performed the way he did, and the fact that the Sox got bounced in the Division Series.
I like Madrigal, but he was billed as a high baseball IQ player, elite level contact, and great defense. In 2 years, he has shown the elite contact, but his defense has been very sub-par, and his baserunning is some of the worst I have ever seen for a player with High Baseball IQ. Couple that with two significant injuries in two years, and trading him made sense.
ASapsFables
Yes. The goof still got 12 likes and counting from his fellow ‘expert’ goofballs.
bostonbob
As with most Rays players, once they leave the team. They suck.
mike127
Why can’t you believe it….Madrigal was out for the season and the only championship you can win now is the one this season. Kimbrel was flat out, on July 31, the best closer in baseball (including Hendriks). They hoped they had built a Royals like bullpen that would be unbeatable in October. I didn’t work out that way.
Madrigal has done nothing for the Cubs yet. He has yet to prove he can stay healthy.
Sure, today it looks like it is a very nice size win for the Cubs. But you never know. For all the junk about the Quintana trade, five years later Jimenez nor Cease have yet to win a playoff series. The object isn’t to win trades it’s to win championships and that’s exactly what Hahn tried to do in the Kimbrel trade.
The issue is the money for the White Sox–they now have $30M+ tied up in “closers”.
paindonthurt
@mike127. Good take
keysox
Excellent take. Went for the cheese. Didn’t work out. Decline option. Sign Sieman.
JoeBrady
The object isn’t to win trades it’s to win championships
=======================================
But one of the ways to win championships, is to win trades.
And this isn’t an overpay for a closer, like Chapman was. This was an overpay for a setup guy. Kimbrel is likely the most expensive setup guy in history, both in terms of salary and in terms of trade value.
kahnkobra
exactly
CluHaywood
Except had he pitched to even half as good as he did with the Cubs, it would have been worth the trade. Kimbrel was flat out awful in the second half, which makes the trade seem much worse.
TomL
Chapman was not an overpay. They would not have come back from that WS deficit with Hector Rondon as the closer and sure Gleyber Torres had .900+ OPS for a season or so but the hitting regression is there now and his defense was such a liability it essentially weakened the whole infield (besides Rizz) having to shift everyone out of position.
I just don’t understand why LaRussa didn’t use them both as 2 closers instead locking the HOF’r into the 8th inning and having both guys throw back to back days. Would be nice if the Cubs can get him back in a trade but doubtful.
iverbure
The way to win championships is to make the playoffs every year and eventually you’ll probably win. You’re way more likely winning a championship by making the playoffs 5 times than one time going all in and crippling your depth for several years.
amk1920
Trading someone because they are hurt is really ridiculous. Relief pitchers are volatile and Kimbrel didn’t have enough team control to justify moving Madrigal for him.
keysox
Why? Madrigal has had major injuries in his two seasons. How is he going to come back? Sox went for it. Move on
pplama
It was a bad trade because Madrigal could have been used to help them win a championship (through trade or as the 2b of the future). Not squandered on a 3 month bust.
outinleftfield
But they didn’t trade for the guy you said was “flat out the best closer in baseball” to close games. They stuck him in a setup man position. The biggest issue is that the eggheads in the Sox FO have no clue that the routine and preparation to be a closer is completely different that than of a setup man. If they had picked up Kimbrel in the offseason he might have had time to adjust. As it was he was completely thrown off his game by having to change his daily routine in the middle of a season. If they pick up his option and give him more shots to close games in a time share with Hendriks he will be just fine in 2022.
Horace Fury
This is an important point about set-up being wrong for him. Kimbrel’s failure with the WS is no mystery–it happened with the Red Sox. He needs to pitch the 9th. He can only pitch three outs. It has to be a clean inning. It has to be for a save, not holding a tie. If any of those is missing, his game is off and he is quite hittable. It became laughable how precise his needs were to function–the surprise is that it became forgettable to the rest of MLB.
JoeBrady
Even his time with the RS wasn’t impeccable. Okay in his first year, great in his 2nd year, and outstanding for a half season in 2018. He had a 1.98 in the first half, a 3.71 in the 2nd half, and a 5.91 in the playoffs.
He could come back real quick, but as a RS fan, I wouldn’t want him for $16M. Too risky.
RamMac14
I’d be hard pressed to say he had to completely change his game. He’s an MLB pitcher making 16 mil a year. That entire thing is all mental and nothing but mental. Routine changes nothing he throws and gets ready. Yes while the game situation may be a bit different you still run out to that mound to get outs. He had a half of a dominant season after many poor seasons with the Cubs. That’s the issue. For example Matthew Boyd for Detroit. Has been average at best most of his career, had a big time season and Detroit asked for the farm. The rejected all offers and held on, now he is back to being average and not worth what they could have gotten.
The Brokenheart Kid
What could possibly have made anybody think on 31 July the Sox were going to be tournament tough come October? Was it their stellar defense? Was it that 5-tool guy in RF or that DH who was going to receive MVP votes? It must have been the embarrassing abundance of wealth at catcher.
There was no way at any point this season the Sox were ready to match up on par with the big boys, so trading Madrigal for a right-now guy was just stupid.
There is also the analytical side to it in that Kimbrel has sucked his entire career except as the closer, but the closer spot in Chicago was already filled.
Remember it was also Hahn in the first week of free agency last year reeled in the big tuna Adam Eaton, so his move for Kimbrel reminded me of my favorite film “Dumb and Dumber.”
The Hernandez deal was a fair mistake by Hahn, but he had better fix it and not extend it as that guy was awful as a Sox.
Whifff
What all star game did I miss with Madrigal? His defense was not as advertised, below average. His base-running was awful, frequently thrown out taking ill advised chances. He hits nothing but singles. He NEVER walks. Why was this such an astronomical price for a guy that was shredding NL hitters?
Pads Fans
Not sure what you are talking about. Madrigal’s defense since being called up was 3 OAA. Better than average.
baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/outs_above_aver…
Madrigal’s BSR was 1.2 which means above average at baserunning.
His OPS was .764 or 40 points above average.
His wRC+ was 113 or 13% above average.
His Slg% was higher than Moncada, Merecedes, and Vaughn.
He had a 7.9% K rate.
Anderson walked 4.0% compared to 5.1% for Madrigal
Your entire take was wrong. Truly a whifff.
srsjsn
So easy spout out stats but I’m sure never watched him play. Can’t turn a double play and yes he does make boneheaded defensive mistake and base running mistakes that don’t show up in the numbers. Eye test still matters . As far as the other numbers in his offense. Sample size isn’t very big since his has missed a lot of 2 season with injuries. So your take is also a whiff
But still should of never traded him for a closer they were going to use as a setup guy.
outinleftfield
The eye test is almost always wrong unless you are a trained scout or a coach. You are neither or you wouldn’t be here. Pads had that description of Madrigal exactly right based on the most accurate measures. Madrigal is above average on both O and D, just 24, and under team control for 5 more seasons. You are right about one thing, it was stupid to trade him for a guy they were going to use as a setup man.
CluHaywood
His errors almost always directly resulted in immediate runs, and his baserunning miscues nearly always ended innings and rallies. Stats tell you he was above average, but anyone watching him play everyday will tell you his mistakes were at critical points in games.
He isn’t without his merits. He was an excellent option if you needed a guy to get on base or get a clutch hit.
ASapsFables
Nick Madrigal had some defensive issues and base running mishaps after debuting. This has happened to many top prospects. The good ones correct those and live up to their initial scouting reports. In Madrigal’s case those tools included plus defense at 2B and solid base running skills that resulted in 43 SB’s in just 163 minor league games, to say nothing of his elite high BA contact bat which has been evident throughout his young professional career.
Madrigal also played the remaining portion of 2020 with a shoulder injury that required a surgical procedure following the postseason. That had to hinder his ability in the field and on the bases but he still managed to hit .340 with elite contact skills.
KCJ
srsjsn –
You guys and you’re “eye test” is more reliable than the actual numbers are such fools. That’s why teams ignore the modern numbers and all rely on “eye tests” when putting together playoff teams, huh? Get a clue
vtadave
May want to delete. Huge whifff.
Dumpster Divin Theo
No delete the delete comment. Ginormous whiff
Blah blah blah
might want to delete this… major whifff.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Delete the might want to delete this comment. Extraordinary and spectacular whiff
pinstripes17
Brutal take, major whiff.
KP23
Forget the climate change battle, with the amount of whiffs we have here, we could provide the entire continental united States with wind power. We are saved!
CalcetinesBlancos
I always liked Madrigal, but I don’t think you’ll win arguing his faults with the people who didn’t watch him play regularly. His skillset is more valuable with a good team around him. On a rebuilding team it’s especially meh, so hopefully the Cubs can put together a good team sooner than later.
I think you also have to keep in mind that while he could get better, he also doesn’t have a long track record in MLB, so it will be interesting to see what he does as he gets scouted more and people learn to pitch to his weaknesses. I think he can still succeed, but it’s not guaranteed.
RobM
Or, maybe they’ll trade him for something else they need.
Madrigal is a good player, but he’s already in his mid-20s, lacks power, and has already suffered a significant injury early in his career. I’d put him in the overrated bucket, although I do dislike that term. That’s not to say he isn’t good, but just not as good as his press clippings among fans.
Certainly a good deal for the Cubs, but I won’t criticize the White Sox at all for making the attempt. They wanted — and want t0 — win a championship. The pushed the chips forward. Didn’t work this year, but Madrigal is also replaceable at 2B. They’ll be fine.
David Barista
Unfortunate that Kimbrell didn’t perform, but the biggest problem with the move is filling the hole that trading Madrigal creates for the White Sox at 2B… Hernandez was benched for Leury Garcia…. Few options in free agency and zero in the farm system….. Madrigal would not be missed if Hernandez wasn’t also a bust
KP23
Interesting enough. There are 2 astros player who are very similarly to madrigal. Say what you will, but the guy makes good contact regularly. In a league that is desperately trying to find guys that fit this profile. Not a whole team like that, but one or two guys makes a lineup that much more dynamic. Harder to pitch too. It has a cascading impact on pitch counts, pressure pitching. It forces defenders to make plays. Etc
zrjc14
Who are the two Astro players similar to Madrigal that you refer to?
Yankee Clipper
One is Correa…….
Dumpster Divin Theo
Actually Whiff, the numbers do back you up on defense. Over the 2 years Nicky has accumulated value, he ranks 73rd of 126 in fielding value. As 1/2 of 126 is 63, 73rd would be below average. In terms of baserunning, he ranks 124th of 126. So your eyes don’t lie. As WAR is a counting stat in looking at 2B with 300+ PA, Slappy ranks 32nd out of 56. So well on his way to being a perennial Allstar. Bra-vo! Take that haters!
The Brokenheart Kid
You do realize that Madrigal was still a rookie in ’21 whose ceiling hadn’t been reached?
Madrigal was also very affordable over the next five years..
Kimbrel was a very expensive closer on a team that had already had an expensive closer who was doing his job effectively. Kimbrel has a history of not being very dominant as a set-up man, which was exactly what he was asked to do by the Sox.
Did you believe that when the Kimbrel trade went down, he was a definitive piece for the Sox to make a deep playoff run? If you did, then you are exactly the kind of fan JR and Hahn love.
The Sox of ’21 were a good but far from great team that needed more than an overpaid set-up man to make fans remember ’05. The trade for Kimbrel at the cost of Madrigal has set the club back because it now needs to find a second baseman and a reliever.
How cruel a joke is it to read that the Sox might pick up Kimbrel’s option in the hope of trading him? First, they give away their second baseman of the future and now they are contemplating picking up his option to trade him knowing full well they’ll have to eat a hefty chunk of his ’22 contract just to shift him. Talk about throwing good money after bad.
Why wouldn’t Hahn just decline the option as he should with Hernandez and right them off as misfires?
Codeeg
Kimbrel is a no brainer to exercise his option, but anyone in the front office feeling they need to justify a trade by doubling down should quit their job. The role of a gm should know when to cut their losses rather than prove others right.
CalcetinesBlancos
Hahn is good at that.
Dumpster Divin Theo
It’s also a small sample size, handful of situations in non high pressure environments. He actually looked good in situations where he was brought upon the face the heart of the order in the 8th, the only reliever the Sox had to get Salvy Perez out
Yankee Clipper
Cashman is great at doubling down on talent/trades too and keeping them for too long. It’s part of our current 2022 offseason predicament.
sdbaseballguy
The Dodgers owe David Price exactly 16 million for next year…..maybe a swap?
Michael Chaney
This is an intriguing idea
bobtillman
More intriguing since the Red sox are actually paying half of Price’s salary in 2022….according to Roster Resources, anyway…so the Sox will be paying Kimbrell again….
dodger1958
bob the Dodgers and RSox are EACH paying 16 million per year.
CluHaywood
That is not an intriguing idea. Kimbrel can atleast still pitch. Price is being paid to kept off the field.
KCJ
Price is being paid to stay off the field? He did have about 14 more innings pitched than Kimbrel last year, so…..
downsr30
I think his struggles are largely attributed to the change in his role in the bullpen. I know people will say it shouldn’t matter, but have you ever pitched? There’s a certain adrenaline that goes with that last inning, and if you take a guy that has lived and breathed that role for a Hall of Fame career to this point, he’s probably going to be a little off.
Based on seeing Kimbrel with the Cubs, he needs to be “the guy.” Acquiring Kimbrel for the White Sox made sense if this was a video game where personalities and emotion aren’t involved, but this isn’t a video game.. I don’t think it is anyway.
DarkSide830
5.23 in SVO for CHW, 9.00 in the 9th un general with CHW. not a big sample size, but I dont think the role thing is the right reason here.
Fever Pitch Guy
Baseball players for the most part are creatures of habit. Pitchers become comfortable with their role, with knowing before the game even starts that a particular inning is theirs.
Again that’s what stats-obsessed managers and front offices neglect to take into account, the human element. You can talk all you want about how Kimbrel should be used in an earlier inning against X-Y-Z batters, but if he is not as comfortable pitching the 6th or 7th inning then the results won’t be there no matter what your computer says. Some players can deal with constant change, many others cannot.
downsr30
@darkside – he actually only pitched ONCE for the White Sox in the 9th inning with a lead – August 26th, and he got the save. Gave up 1 hit. Otherwise he only came in either during the 8th or the 9th with a tie game.
downsr30
@darkside to be clear, a save opportunity can also be where he came in with a 3 run or smaller lead in the 8th and blew it, which would then be a blown save..
DarkSide830
good point I guess, I just pulled the BBREF splits real quick.
Pads Fans
Its not just the inning he would be pitching in or the adrenaline from closing, its the routine. Kimbrel is a guy that for his entire career knew exactly what he would be doing to prepare each day and each moment in every game. His routine was long established. He had never had to setup in his career. This result was as predictable as any I have ever seen.
The Human Toilet
You also don’t make that change in the middle of the season with a new team when he was in the middle of a historic run as a CLOSER!
Pads Fans
Exactly. Especially not after 11 years as a closer
CluHaywood
It isn’t as if he hasn’t had melt downs being a closer too. He flat out sucked for the BoSox in the post season.
outinleftfield
Exactly right.. I think I said pretty much the same thing above in response to another comment, but your explanation is better than mine.
mils100
Completely agree. Didn’t the same thing happens when Boston had him originally pitching the 8th?. It’s a different role. That being said, I didn’t like trade from the beginning. They already had a closer and a bunch of good bullpen options plus Tepera. It just seemed like a bad fit.
I would just buyout the option and move on.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
If Kimbrel rights himself again and makes it to 500 saves (he has 128 to go) is he a hall of famer? As a Braves fan I loved this guy and hated him being traded.The only good thing to come out of that trade was the draft pick the Braves got they struck gold with Austin Riley (2015 1st round pick #41).
The Baseball Fan (Doesn’t like the White Sox)
He already is HoF. He won’t get to 500 saves unless he gets traded to a team that knows how to use him.
DarkSide830
I dunno. if he retired today would he have a better career than Billy Wagner (who should be in but is struggling to get votes)?
Curly Was The Smart Stooge
I’m with FredMcGriff. I would like to see him finish as a Brave, & maybe my blood pressure would go down if Will Smith didn’t give me a stroke every time he closes a game
FredMcGriff for the HOF
@dark. Yeah. It’s strange with Wagner. 6 years on the ballot and he’s only got 30% of the vote so far. He dominated his entire career outside of 2000.
tstats
If (and hopefully when) Wagner gets in, it will open the door for the closers of now like Jansen, Kimbrel, and Chapman.
JoeBrady
only got 30% of the vote so far.
=================================
Some of these voters have absolutely -0- clue. What happens is like what happened with Larry Walker. Most of the writers had no idea who he was. The a few guys vote for him, so a few of the more sentient voters take a look. When he gets to 50%, then some of the guys who have no idea who he is, are finally forced to do some research, rather than be embarrassed.
if you don’t believe me, check out Rolen (should have been 1st ballot), 10.2 to start. Andruw Jones started with 7.3%. Wagner 10.5%. Ted Simmons 3.7%. Dick Allen 3.7%. I think they will make the HOF, but first the writers need to figure out who they are.
LordD99
He has a shot because of his early career dominance, but he’s not there yet, IMO. Needs to keep producing some additional quality seasons.
Saves are not quite viewed as they were a few years back, so future Hall voters might look for additional data beyond save totals to support Kimbrel’s case. His career rWAR sits about 21. Rivera’s at about 56. He’s pitched about half the innings as Rivera, and obviously doesn’t have the postseason resume. Now, Hall entry for a reliever is below Rivera, but I’m noting he still has some ground to cover.
A year ago I’d say his case is dead because he appeared to be limping to the end of his career. Then he put up a great half season as a Cub. If he can maintain a high level for a couple more seasons, his case becomes stronger.
Ducky Buckin Fent
@McGriff –
Good topic. Might be tough to break 500. But relievers can hang around a long time so he may get some seasons to compile sheer/tack-on volume stats.
Kimbrel averages 39 saves/year. He is 52 saves from being in the top 5 All-Time. If he can have 2 more of *his* “average” seasons he would have to be voted in. I think he has an excellent chance. But he will – more than likely – need to be a primary closer for another season or two. Which means as far as his HOF chances go, he would probably be better served getting out of Chicago.
Yankee Clipper
Ducky, given the content of this article is WSox, what’s your opinion about the potential for a Yasmani Grandal trade? And, what’s your opinion on Grandal IF WSox would consider a trade?
Thanks, man.
Ducky Buckin Fent
I don’t know why they would trade him, Clip.
White Sox are definitely trying to win. Seems like they would have little reason to trade him. Interestingly enough, Grandal struggles with blocking & hits for pretty low averages himself.
His first 0-4 & it would be “4 more years of this!”.
Ya know?
Yankee Clipper
Yeah, you’re right about that. I looked back over his numbers and for some reason, I thought he was much better defensively than his numbers show. He did have a Sanchez-like year batting (at least the kind we expect) with over a .900 ops+.
Sanchez’s defensive numbers are not good, at all, but they’re not quite as bad either. There are catchers with worse defense on the field by the metrics. He’s certainly near the bottom 10% or so, but it looks as though his defense may have improved slightly, if we consider all peripherals. What helps some other catchers is the framing metric, which hurts Sanchez.
Anyway, I still think it’s Contreras if we are really going for production on both sides.
Also, did you see the NESN article with Pete Rose?! He said of Joey Gallo, “Ray Charles wouldn’t strike out that many times” lololol.
pinstripes17
Another Jed Hoyer fleece, Madrigal is gonna be a very good major leaguer for a long time.
The Human Toilet
Heuer is going to be a very nice reliable bullpen arm too, not a huge strikeout guy but does have Mark Melancon type potential.
I don’t see Madrigal as a all-star type but he will at least be good solid 2B for years to come for the Cubs.
Hoyer did a really good job in this trade, I cannot imagine Haun thought LaRussa would of used Kimbrel that way or he would not pulled the trigger
Dorothy_Mantooth
Of course Hahn knew LaRussa was going to use Kimbrel as a bridge to Hendriks. That’s the reason they acquired him, plus he could close games when Hendriks was not available too. But he was acquired by Hahn to pitch 8th inning, much like Devin Williams in Milwaukee. There should have been zero surprise from the front office on how he was used.
rememberthecoop
Another? Keep in mind, since we never really knew where Theo ended and Jed picked up, he has to share in the accountability for that awful earlier trade with the Sox that netted them Eloy and Cease for a starter who was overrated and then did nothing good with the Cubs.
At least when they traded Torres to the Yankees it resulted in a WS win.
MLBTR Commenter
The Cubs have won more playoff games since the Quintana trade.
The Human Toilet
You lost me with Quintana’ “did nothing good for the Cubs part.”
While the trade did not work as hoped, he did help the Cubs turn their 2017 season around to make it to the NLCS, he was decent more backend starter in 2018 and starting falling off in the 2nd half in 2019. He was not the guy expected to be, but to say he did nothing good is a terrible take.
He built a strong establish track record before the trade, he had 4 straight 200+ innings pitch giving you around all-star production and his contract was at the fraction of his true value with multiple team options going forward and it seemed like a good risk to take at the time.
White Sox clearly won the trade no doubt and long term it was alway at the Sox advantage, but Cubs just got off winning a World Series and wanted to win more with the current core while there, it did not work out as hoped, it happens.
pinstripes17
By that logic, Cease and Eloy are overrated because they have done nothing for the Sox. The Cubs have been a much more successful franchise since that trade as well.
The Baseball Fan (Doesn’t like the White Sox)
What an absolute steal of a trade!
bbatardo
I only followed Kimbrel with the Padres, but he was always bad when not pitching the 9th or a save opportunity. Makes me wonder if that is part of it.
For Love of the Game
Many relievers are that way. It seems to be an occupational hazard of being a closer. I think that’s why they call it a “closer’s mentality.”
30 Parks
White Sox should have known better – Madrigal can flat out hit.
MrMet62
Steve Adams, an excellent article! Well nuanced and even handed. Bravo!
DarkSide830
It’s amazing they traded Madrigal for a reliever, even Kimbrel.
The Human Toilet
Got Heuer too, which Hoyer would not do the trade without and Haun really did not want to add him and almost backed out because of it but gave in at the last second,.
DarkSide830
yeah, Heuer is a nice add, but just Madrigal (as a cheap, young, controllable position player, who has already shown well in the Majors) is a win. Heuer is icing on the cake.
The Human Toilet
Agreed!
I am looking forward of many years of Madrigal patrolling 2B for the Cubs and if he can stay off the IL, he could win a few battling titles.
nailz#4life
CWS will sign Baez to play 2B.
CalcetinesBlancos
Lol.
outinleftfield
He is reportedly asking for $30 million AAV. You really think the cheapskate in charge for the Sox is going to pony up that kind of money?
CluHaywood
Not for Baez. He isn’t worth that contract, not even close. Let the Mets tie up 60 mil on 2 players and wonder why they can’t win.
Yankee Clipper
I heard he charges extra to boo his own fans too.
whyhayzee
Reminiscent of the Red Sox getting Gagne. Also an abject disaster. I do think closers gotta close. It sure seems that way.
I think you’re a lot better off getting role player relievers. Both the Red Sox and yankees had success with that route.
MLBTR Commenter
The White Sox are what we thought they were. A mediocre team in a bad division with a senile owner and a drunk manager.
The Human Toilet
The Quintana Revenge!!!
paindonthurt
Actually, they remind me a lot of the 2015 Cubs. The White Sox should be an excellent team in 22’, and the foreseeable future.
The Human Toilet
They should, the got the talent no doubt and potential to be elite.
Only thing that could hold them back is LaRussa.
riffraff
Kimbrel for Chapman even up – change of scenery type deal for both.
ASapsFables
Aroldis Chapman would certainly offer better balance at the backend of the White Sox bullpen as a lefty to pair with Liam Hendriks. That said, the White Sox have already invested substantial dollars with Hendriks and southpaw Aaron Bummer. Retaining Kimbrel or swapping him for Chapman only increases that amount. There is also the domestic abuse issue hanging over Chapman which is something the White Sox would almost certainly avoid after the bashing they took from their fans with the hiring of manager Tony La Russa and his drinking issues.
All this said, perhaps another trade could be worked out with the Yankees involving Kimbrel and SP Dallas Keuchel. Keuchel was a Cy Young candidate just a year ago ago before falling on hard time this season. He has one year remaining on his FA contract. When Keuchel is right he is adept at inducing ground balls. An effective lefty SP also plays well in Yankee Stadium.
The Yankees already have a hefty payroll so adding both Kimbrel and Keuchel might not make the most sense UNLESS the White Sox would also be willing to take on commensurate and/or unwanted salary from New York. The White Sox two biggest holes right now are at 2B and in RF. Clearly the White Sox would have interest in DJ LeMahieu or Gleyber Torres to fill 2B. As for RF, the Yankees have two enticing options in Aaron Judge and Joey Gallo who each have one more season of expensive arbitration eligibility before becoming potential free agents in 2023. The White Sox would have to add something substantial to virtually any package involving Kimbrel and Keuchel, especially in the case of Judge. Would their front office be willing to include an arm like Garret Crochet and more in order to get the Yankees to bite on a trade for one of those pieces?
Dumpster Divin Theo
What a long-winded and unhinged take. The Yankees wouldn’t take on two bad contracts for Judge, a franchise icon
Even Gallo offers more surplus value,, as 3 outcomes as his game entails. And why would the Sox let go one of their treasured prospects just to unload salary? No no no
ASapsFables
Kimbrel’s contract is hardly a bad one as a dominant closer. He was the best in MLB at last summer’s deadline which made him one of the most desirable trade assets for contenders in need of one. The White Sox outbid the competition and were willing to take on his salary to setup closer Liam Hendriks. Kimbrel’s 2022 $16MM team option would be considered a bargain if he duplicated his 2021 first half with the Cubs along virtually every other past season as a future HOF’er.
My comment also explicitly stated that the White Sox would need to up the ante in any potential trade for the 4 Yankees players I mentioned as trade targets. This is especially the case with Aaron Judge who most pundits believe will return to the Yankees with a contract extension this offseason or as free agent the following winter.
The White Sox are currently ranked at or near the bottom of virtually anyone’s prospect lists with all their graduates to the big club over the past couple of seasons. They don’t currently have any prospects in a top-100 list so adding a one or two of those “treasured” talents to facilitate a trade for the players I mentioned wouldn’t appear to be too problematic. I also believe most White Sox fans would be on board with adding a young MLB talent like Crochet to a package in order to land an impacting player like Judge or LeMahieu to fill RF or 2B.
pplama
Or decline the option and use the $16mil on a good player who doesn’t need a “change of scenery”.
ASapsFables
Yes. That $16MM would be a nice down payment on a potential FA contract for former White Sox Marcus Semien. Signing Semien to play 2B for the next 3-5 years would certainly take the sting out of the Nick Madrigal loss. There will likely be another cost involved in signing Semien provided the QO is still a part of the next CBA. The A’s surprisingly decided to pass on tagging Semien when he hit free agency last December, something the Blue Jays will not do if they are unable to extend him before he hits the open market.
Pads Fans
Semien is going to get 5/125 or more. $16mm won’t make much of a dent in that.
RobM
Doesn’t really make sense for either team. Chapman isn’t exactly a “change of scenery” candidate. He’s pitched in NY for parts of six seasons, and successfully as a closer with a 161 ERA+. He had a complete collapse for about two-and-a-half months late June to early September this seasons that negated getting off to one of his best starts of his career. While not widely reported, the main issue was a cracked fingernail. Sounds incredibly minor, unless you’re a MLB pitcher and can’t properly grip the seams. Lost command of his fastball, as well as his splitter, which has become more important as his fastball ticks down. In the process, his mechanics were thrown out of whack. All was well again by September, when he struck out half the batters he faced.
The issue isn’t Chapman or Kimbrel. The question is why would either team make the deal? If they can trade their salaries (and they can as both are only on one-year deals, especially if they tack on some additional money), then they might as well take the $16M savings and direct it elsewhere. The Yankees, for example, would likely move Loaisiga into the closer role, and direct the $15M savings to another part of the roster.
Captain Dunsel
Phillies should offer Moniak and Hammer and take the financial risk. 1-1 draftees have added cachet, and who doesn’t like a pitcher named Hammer?
Dumpster Divin Theo
Hammer time!
ASapsFables
The proverbial “rock and a hard place” with the White Sox and Craig Kimbrel this offseason.
MookieNomare
It’s a $15M decision (net of the buyout) for Rick Hahn. Looking at the market, many teams expected to contend / operate with mid-high payrolls for 2022 have closers, and I for one feel the FA market for Iglesias and Jansen may not be extremely robust as they are likely to seek multi-year deals albeit possibly at lower than 15M AAV.. So Craig on a single-year deal may be attractive to the few mid-high payroll teams who might be prioritizing a closer. Philly, for example. Dombrowski traded for Kimbrel while in Boston, so if he still feels good about Craig then I would not be surprised if he offers Didi (hold on, not all of it) and a decent prospect top 10 from the Phillies’ system. The cash salaries almost match exactly, the White Sox recoup some prospect asset (maybe Francisco Morales or Luis Garcia?). Didi is 31 and may have motivation to re-establish a decent platform for another contract, likely his last chance at a decent big payday, he can play some 2B and backup Anderson.
bhambrave
ChiSox should send Kimbrell and $10M to Atlanta for Rich Rodriguez.
JoeBrady
1-5 years of Madrigal for 1+1 of Kimbrel, at $16M, always seemed like a steal. I always hoped the RS could get him. A good lead-off hitter, with speed, and defense up the middle, was always a huge get.
2-Having two closers on a team, instead of a closer and a setup, never seems to work. It is reminiscent of the Papelbon trade. Storen was doing great until the Nats traded for Papelbon. Once demoted to a setup guy, Storen went from an ERA of 1.73 to an ERA of 6.75.
I’d understand the overpayment (a little) if you really needed a closer. But to trade a borderline AS candidate for an expensive setup, makes no sense.
ASapsFables
Lou Piniella had three closers on his 1990 World Series Reds team. The Nasty Boys featured Randy Myers, Rob Dibble and Norm Charlton. On paper and with pure stuff, the 2021 White Sox matched or exceeded that trio with Liam Hendriks, Craig Kimbrel, Aaron Bummer, Michael Kopech and Garrett Crochet. Clearly Piniella was more adept employing his trio in comparison to how Tony La Russa utilized his 5 elite arms. La Russa also benefited from a deeper and more talented starting rotation than what Piniella had in 1990. Just saying…
Pads Fans
The Reds didn’t trade for any of those guys mid-season and expect them to change their routines.
Myers was the CLOSER on that team and Dibble got occasional saves when Myers had pitched a couple days in a row. A total of 11. Charlton had 2 saves that year.
Different situation than what the White Sox did here.
riffraff
Aaron – I think the difference is that The Nasty Boys were fluid in their roles from the beginning of the season. whereas Hendricks was “the Man” for the sox and Kimbrel was “the man” for the cubs. So while the nasty boys were indeed 3 closers they each knew that they were “the man” as a unit.. bit of a different mindset. Not sure how much that changes how a pitchers pitches but there have been a few examples of a lights out setup man not being able to close and vice versa ( Tom Gordon comes to mind)
ASapsFables
If the White Sox pick up Kimbrel’s $16MM option in December, something that Bob Nightengale believes is likely, they will have the same situation for the entirety of 2022 barring a trade. Even with Kopech’s expected promotion to the starting rotation, Tony La Russa will still have the other four arms available at the back end of his bullpen including two clear closers in Hendriks and Kimbrel.
mike127
Can any of these relief pitchers play defense, hit the cutoff man, run the bases, catch and block a pitch on a strike two count? If not–who cares….we just saw what wins baseball games in October.
Houston absolutely schooled the Sox in all the small phases of the game and when you add up all the small things, they really are the big things.
Dumpster Divin Theo
What Mike says. It’s not really about Kimbrel. The Astros pounded all 4 Sox starters. Game over
Pads Fans
Most predictable fail of all the deadline deals. White Sox tried to turn a dominant closer with a long established pattern of what he did each day and each game in terms of preparation into a set up man with no idea when he would pitch.
According to MLB Network on 11 occasions since the trade Kimbrel was asked to warm up and then didn’t enter the game at all. He came in for 2 saves in 2 months.
Insanely stupid to ask a career long closer to suddenly become a setup man and the results showed that clearly.
amk1920
White Sox did a great job at making sure the Cubs get even for the Eloy trade
Dumpster Divin Theo
Not even close. Good luck with slappy Cubs fans. At least you’ll have another Darwin Barney to infantilize
Blah blah blah
Hey, … its me again. I’m short on rent again this month. Can I get another month free?
pinstripes17
Nick Madrigal is better at baseball than Eloy.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Blah blah blah is better at slapping words together than pinstripes.
LanceCT
Kimbrel more than any established closer was awful in tie games or non-closing situations, bad move from jump street by the White Sox and their research department, should have just picked up a quality setup guy
JoeBrady
That’s exactly what I don’t understand. Guys like Chafin and Graveman weren’t as good as Kimbrel, but cost less than half as much in talent and salary. Even if they pitched 27 innings, and the difference in ERA was say 1.50, that a difference of 4.5 over the full two months. And that equated to less than a half-win.
pplama
No team will take that contract. If the Sox pick-up the option, they’re stuck with him. And the fragile egos in that FO are dumb enough to do it.
The Human Toilet
16 Million on a one year deal for a potential dominate closer as recent as mid 2021 season is a good price, they will not get anything prospect wise in a trade.
Some team will take the chance on him at that price and use him correctly as a CLOSER!!!!!
pplama
He wasn’t used incorrectly. He lost 2 mph on his fastball. Just like the first half of 2018. The last time he was good.
Declining the option gives them $16mil to spend on a good player.
vtadave
2018 was the last time he was good?
pplama
Sorry I wasn’t clear.
He was good for the first half of ’18 and the first half of ’21.
Lost velo both years. Terrible in ’19 and ’20.
Those thinking he has trade value at $16mil are delusional.
IronBallsMcGinty
For that much money, if you’re a major league pitcher, then you should be prepared to pitch whenever you’re manager needs you. Players need to be versatile.
paindonthurt
I disagree. You will have a couple closer needy teams that would take that deal. I just wouldn’t expect value coming back to the Sox.
LordD99
Agreed. And if the White Sox want to pay down a few million, it will increase the return.
The Human Toilet
I agree that Sox will not get much value coming back and if they are expecting that then they will be very disappointed.
Sox will have to eat some money to get a decent return but I don’t think they will be willing to do that.
kripes-brewers
How much does going from NL to AL have to do with this? Seems to be a LOT more offense coming out of the AL so far…
Kayrall
Ah yes, statistically the most dominant reliever in baseball until the trade deadline but regresses back to normal when facing the SuPeRiOr American League offense?
LordD99
If he was a starting pitcher, I might say some. AL lineups historically deeper with the DH. For a reliever, probably little difference. The closer comes in for high-leverage situations. They’re not facing the pitcher or even the bottom of the lineup.
mike127
You do understand that he gave up 13 runs with the White Sox—-6 of them were scored by the Cubs–a NATIONAL LEAGUE team.
Prunella Vulgaris
I don’t understand why a manager would put in a pitcher against the last team he pitched for. That team knows what the pitcher throws and when he throws it.
DocBB
There is ZERO chance Kimbrel gets $16M on the open market. He had a “good” overall 2021 that was marred by a bad run with the ChiSox. Before that he hasn’t been “great” since 2017. He’s been to inconsistent in the last half decade to merit that money. He would most likely get $10-$12M a year in the open market IMO.
j_butte
Bring him back to Atlanta for Ozuna. Even with the charges against him dropped, I’m sure the Braves want him gone. And his contract isn’t bad if he plays.
vtadave
Let’s see. Ozuna:
1. Owed $53 million
2. Was terrible this year
3. May be facing 2022 suspension
4. Would be a PR headache for whatever team he plays for in 2022 if he plays
I’m sure the market will be huge.
RobM
He’s a DH in the making. The White Sox don’t need that.
Idioms for Idiots
Without hesitation I’d decline the option and use the money for more pressing needs.
Obviously the Cubs won the trade handily. It was the absolute worst case scenario that played out for the Sox, though it wasn’t of the magnitude of the Eloy/Cease/Q trade or (even worse) the Tatis/Shields trade. But it will still bite the Sox hard especially since they have no legit 2B (Hernandez was an equal bust for the Sox). The only possible way Hahn gets out of this mess is to get a star 2B this Winter, and I don’t see that happening.
The funny thing about the trade is that Madrigal was blasted by many for being a singles only hitter with suspect defense, yet immediately after the trade he somehow transformed into a star player. Don’t get me wrong, I liked him on the Sox, and I would love to still have him on the team. But I think it’s funny that he was seen as (at best) a decent player, and now he’s seen as a star without swinging the bat once for the Cubs.
pplama
Anyone blasting Madrigal for his bat or glove is pretty silly. Has a very remedial grasp of modern baseball.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Not so much blasting him. He’s awwright if you’re old school and like that flashy ba on the back of his baseball card. What’s the best way to put this: whole being much less than the sum of the parts? How long did Mike Caruso last after that .300 avg his rookie year?
Dumpster Divin Theo
Fangraphs career value of 5.0 from hitting, offset by his career -3.5 from baserunning, and -0.6 fielding. It’s still early, so maybe the game slows down for slappy and he evolves into a Darwin Barney, not just a Ryan Theriot.
pplama
Might want to check those fgraphs #’s again, Sparky.
JoeBrady
Every team has fans that just blindly don’t like a guy, and pretty much refuse to look at their stats. Or maybe understand the stats. Madrigal reminds me a bit of Verdugo, to the extent that not only was he a highly-rated prospect, he also had a fair amount of pro ABs to back that up.
Except for power, and that doesn’t matter much to a lead-off hitter, he is a pretty good package. Like maybe 3 war per season, for 15 WAR for his control years. Unless the injury is worse than expected, I see little chance that the Cubs don’t clean up on this trade, regardless of what Kimbrel does.
Pads Fans
Jut going to copy and paste this. Most applies to your post.
Madrigal’s defense since being called up was 3 OAA. Better than average.
baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/outs_above_aver…
His OPS was .764 or 40 points above average.
His wRC+ was 113 or 13% above average.
His Slg% was higher than Moncada, Merecedes, and Vaughn.
He had an insanely low 7.9% K rate.
Anderson walked 4.0% compared to 5.1% for Madrigal
Madrigal was seen by smart fans as what he is, a well above average 2B that had long term team control.
Dumpster Divin Theo
And you neglect the same Baseball Savant numbers which reveal his exit velocity at 38, which is bottom guadrant. But hey, .300 avg!
JoeBrady
FG shows his EV as 85.5.
pplama
Baseball Savant does not say that.
jhomeslice
@83 I agree with you, I hope they pass on the option but it sounds like they won’t according to Nightengale, which is discouraging and just seems so stupid.
To me it all comes down to what it always has, will the money be spent, as Hahn promised. Semien would solve their 2b need and give them an upgrade over even the best version of Madrigal, erasing the trade blunder completely. But will they actually get someone like Semien? There was a 55M payroll difference between them and the Astros this year, and the difference in talent starts with that. I think most Sox fans are tired of dumpster diving signings like Eaton, which flies in the face of a narrative that says “World Series or bust”. Gotta get someone like Semien or Castellanos this time, without making excuses. I think that’s the only way they are going to have more success in the playoffs than the last 2 years. Reinsdorf probably knows he’ll lose credibility if they don’t do something pretty big this winter, I think he might come through this time. If there is one positive about the Astros series, it is that it showed them that they cannot afford to be complacent.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Yup. Slappy does as Slappy does. The Sox had already moved on from him after repeated base running blunders and subpar D. The better q is whether they could have moved him elsewhere? Maybe the Marlins or Pirates for a Marte or Frazier? Think the Sox will bring Kimbrel and rehab his value some. The idea of a deal for Kiermaier- while far fetched, wouldn’t be bad. Always loved K’s game and instincts, stashing the notes at home par example.
JoeBrady
The Sox had already moved on from him
=====================================
Wrong. He played 54 of the Sox first 61 games. He was their regular 2B.
Dumpster Divin Theo
They were playing him, but there were a lot of concerns about his makeup. How do you accumulate a -3.5 Baserunning value in less than a full season of PAs (over the course of shortened 20 and early 21). That’s unheard of. Add to that his weak contact and you have a useful guy but not the future part of a core championship contender.
JoeBrady
Wrong again. I checked Fangraphs again and his Team Concern Index (TCI+) was 106.
pplama
Easy. You have a rough first cup of coffee, then erase those concerns the following year.
CalcetinesBlancos
I mean, what else is new? There’s a long list of mediocre to bad Cubs players that people celebrate. So it’s no surprise that someone with actual skills would be elevated to Babe Ruth levels.
Dumpster Divin Theo
It’s why Nick will fit in nicely as another cuddly Ryan Theriot type
south side hit men
Sure this trade looks terrible now but I was still in favor of it at the time. It wasn’t just Madrigal for Kimbrel. It was Madrigal for Kimbrel and Cesar Hernandez. Once they acquired Hernandez with his club option for ‘22, to fill an immediate position of need, it made it easier to part with Madrigal. Neither trade looks good now, but bad trades are part of baseball. We’ll be able to trade Kimbrel for a modest return. Hopefully it’s to an NL team and he’ll probably be a good closer again. I feel like his issues were more mental.
Pads Fans
Hernandez was not part of the trade. It was Kimbrel for Madrigal and Hueur. mlbtraderumors.com/2021/07/white-sox-to-acquire-cr…
Hernandez was acquired in a separate trade with the Indians. To keep Hernandez, he White Sox will have to pick up his $6mm 2022 option. Considering that Hernandez hit .232 with a .608 OPS while playing below league average defense for the White Sox that is far from a sure thing.
south side hit men
I know that Pads. Ugh. Once we acquired Hernandez, Madrigal became expendable. If we don’t acquire Hernandez with a club option for ‘22, I’m guessing Madrigal then never gets moved either.
kripes-brewers
I think you have to take a chance that they’ll fix whatever was ailing and bring him back. If you get him straight, you have an awesome 1-2 punch to finish games. If he doesn’t work out, you can still trade him at the deadline. Look how many relief pitchers moved this year.
pplama
It always looked terrible.
jhomeslice
I think there is a risk they don’t find a trade partner who wants to pay CK 16M, after his flop with the Sox. He had an ERA over 5 in 2020 and over 6.5 in 2019, so it’s not like he just had a couple bad months, he seems to be well into a decline in spite of a great first half. The upside seems so small… even if they traded him they are not likely to get much in return unless they picked up part of his salary. Just does not seem worth it. I hope they don’t pick his option up and cut their losses, personally. The last thing they need is to pay him 16M when they are stuck paying Keuchel 18M already.
msqboxer
Kimbrel’s option will be picked up and if the CWS do anything they will not pick up Hernandez’s. Hernandez never looked like he fit in with this team and with CWS love affair with Leury Garcia they’ll resign him and hand the 2B job to him until Yolbert Sanchez takes it from him. Overall I think TLR mishandled the closer role and should of had Kimbrel and Hendriks split the duties trading off between set up and closers.
deleted account
The white Sox are losers. If I were manager I would bring a World Series to the south side. I deserve any open position
Dumpster Divin Theo
Why yes. Yes you do.
kingken67
I’m wondering if the MLB crackdown on foreign substances to enhance grip on the ball had any factor in his decline in effectiveness. He really wasn’t that good the past 2 years, then all of a sudden was unhitable the beginning of this year. Then soon after MLB announced the sticky substance crackdown he went south again.
bucknerkingmansutter
Gee, where are the usual ChiSox trolls today???
50-year-old “jag bag keyboard warriors” who are crying in their Mom’s basement right now.
Love it and predicted they wouldn’t even get past the 1st series.
Leave it to another Cub (that the Sox traded for) to piss off the Astros.
Thanks, Ryan, and this time I can proudly say “In Dusty We Trusty.”
CalcetinesBlancos
You’re projecting lol.
mike127
buckner et al—they don’t troll on Sox stories—they only troll on Cub stories. Leave them alone.
Dumpster Divin Theo
White Sox fans open and transparent on a thread about a White Sox player the day after being eliminated from the ALDS. Expected. A little boy or basement dweller masquerading with a revolving door of screen names with nothing to add, other than to whine about the state of the world. Which one’s the troll?
bucknerkingmansutter
You make me laugh, almost as much as I laughed yesterday afternoon watching the “can’t get past the first round, for the last 2 years” dynasty make a name for itself.
Adolpho67
Writer failed to mention that Sox immediately moved Kimbrel to a set-up role to keep “their own guy” Hendricks as closer. Wonder if Hahn knew he was trading two good young MLB players for a set-up guy? Also, TLR unfair to Kimbrel who was almost a sure HOF closer until he joined the wrong team.
BigGargamel
As a Cubs fan, this trade helped ease the sting of the Quintana for Jimenez/Cease deal….a teensy tiny bit.
Dumpster Divin Theo
The proper perspective. The Sox swung for it and miscalculated on Kimbrel. Hope Madrigal works for you all. Just doesn’t expect too much. And hope the 2 clubs continue to deal. Adds fuel to the rivalry.
Dumpster Divin Theo
In the meantime we can go back to reuniting as a city to cheer on….the dumping of Pace + Nagy!
zainzain11
I’m a Cubs and a White Sox fan. I still can’t believe Hahn traded Madrigal, but silver lining is he went to the Cubs. I hate when you wait years for rebuilding and you trade away young studs. Madrigal hitting over .300, they paid too much.
SupremeZeus
Pick up the option and explore a trade. Lol . No brainer. You decline the option and move on. They are going to make the same mistake twice. Ego/embarrassment move in an attempt to lessen the fleece. Sox have limited resources and this is what they do with them? SP, 2b & RF …too many holes not enough resources for the White Sox to get it done.
MLB Top 100 Commenter
Kimbrel is a great trade chip if you are willing to pay half his salary to get a prospect. If you are not willing to pay down the salary to trade for a prospect, then cut him loose.
jhomeslice
I don’t think they are going to get a prospect worth 8 million. Cut him loose.
zainzain11
His 2nd half of season was horrible. Plus he sucked in playoffs. He won’t fetch you a top prospect. Maybe a low tier, if lucky mid tier (outside top 100). Hahn made a horrible trade.
miltpappas
Kimbrel isn’t going to be an 8th-inning understudy. He wants saves and is focused on his stats.
JT19
If the money isn’t a big issue, I think the Sox have to pick up his option here. Shop him first, although I doubt they get anything of significant value back (initial offers would probably be spare parts for Kimbrel or a swap of bad contracts). If he pitches well, either they hold onto him or they can shop him again. The trade looked bad when it first happened and looks even worse now given how he pitched. Not sure of the Sox cap situation, but assuming luxury tax isn’t an issue, you have to try to get some value back on this deal at this point because they presumably traded for him in the first place with that option year in mind as added value.
kelticknotz
Some things never change. LaRussa whining about how Abrue got hit on a 3-2 count in the 8th inning, where Astro’s had the game totally in hand.
LaRussa has a long distinct history of everything he see’s is right and everyone else is wrong. He says the Astro’s lack character.
First the pitcher who hit Abrue had been wild the entire inning and has a history of being wild. Second you don’t bean a batter on a 3-2 count intentionally.
And as for lack of character LaRussa is the one with no character, just admit your team met up with a steam roller called the Houston Astro’s and move on. Or better yet maybe its time to look for that rocking chair your beginning to sound like a grumpy old man.
ludafish
I hope they don’t pick up the option and on day one the Marlins offer him something respectable (and obviously tell him he gets the 9th to start the year unless he efffs it up). The time with CHW will hurt his value, especially how bad he was in the playoffs and I think he would sign for something like 2/20. His window for the large contract he wanted closed a long time ago. People forget in 2020 his last like 20 or so innings he was as dominant as he was for the Cubs in 21. So I believe he can get it right again and at least be an above average closer. If they signed him I would possibly trade Floro or have Floro and Bender set him up. They seem content with Bleier as the main lefty and Thompson the long man. I would try to convert Garret to a reliever as he lost all his velocity after TJ and could possibly become a good reliever. Then boom suddenly the Marlins bullpen problem is solved and they can go ok to try to fix the 18 other problems the team has.
revolver
Who would you be willing to give up for him though?
ludafish
For Kimbrel? I imagine the Sox would love to get rid of his salary so it probably wouldn’t take someone major if they eat all the 16mm. So maybe Nick Neidert (someone suffering on the Marlins. He needs consistent innings he could be a great #3/4 starter but they keep giving him like 3 innings then sent down for a week and repeat. He was very well regarded when we acquired him and the local beat writers would talk about him being in the rotation soon). Or trade Floro for him, he had a good year but I don’t want him closing. Floro for 1 yr 16mm of Kimbrel is probably a “bad value” trade but the Marlins need to finally have someone with a name for themselves in the 9th.
That being said who am I kidding? They won’t take his whole salary and give up someone like Misner and some other wild card and they would go on to have amazing careers.
HawaiiPhil2020
Phils should send them Didi & Moniak & Hammer
jimthegoat
Sunk cost fallacy to say they should exercise Kimbrel’s option because they traded Madrigal for him.
Fred K. Burke
I give the Sox and GM Hahn credit for making a bold move. It sometimes takes guts to make big moves and win a championship. It didn’t work out. Time to move on and plan for next season. This is a good team. They’ll make some moves in the off season. Plan on the Sox to be contenders for the near future.
infractor
Wanted to see the Jays land him at the deadline and, with the benefit of hindsight, glad they didn’t. That said, they do need a couple more arms in the bullpen and even an okay Kimbrel would be a big help. The drop-off is odd though – if it’s a matter of one of those guys who can’t perform unless he’s the closer then it’d be problematic as Romano should have that role unless he proves otherwise himself.
ASapsFables
The Kevin Kiermaier trade that Steve Adams proposed in this article and expounded on in his Front Office entry to MLBTR subscribers makes a lot of sense, especially assuming that the White Sox are more likely to pursue a 2B this offseason to replace Nick Madrigal than taking a shot at another cheap RF like they did in 2020 (Nomar Mazara trade) and 2021 (FA Adam Eaton). The lefty hitting Kiermaier would make an ideal platoon partner with right-handed hitting Adam Engel with each having favorable splits against opposite pitching. Both are also elite defenders who can play all 3 OF positions.
Kiermaier’s one year of remaining team control ($12,166,666MM) and 2023 club option ($2.5MM) also closely matches Craig Kimbrel’s 2022 team option ($16MM). It could also coincide well with two potentially impacting internal RF options for the White Sox in the near future. They would be a pair of highly regard Cubans (surprise, surprise!), Yoelqui Cespedes who signed as an international FA last January along with Oscar Colas who is set to sign this coming January. Cespedes has already reached AA in his first professional season and has a potential ETA of late 2022 or early 2023. Colas is also an advanced Cuban player who has already played professionally in Japan. His ETA would be on a similar track to that of Cespedes. Each possess power and arm strength tools that profile well in RF.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Yeah love Kiermaier. But why would Tampa entertain this? Not their MO. If yoire looking at wildcard scenarios, how bout Kimbrel back to Boston, a win win for city and player. Red Sox need a reliable shut down type after over relying on Matty Barnes. Whitlock could use some help. And based on recent playoff blowups, it seems the Red Sox have an expensive underperfrorming asset. Time for a reunion on both sides?
ASapsFables
I only chose to comment on the White Sox angle from Steve Adams Front Office entry and also added my own take in regards to their likely prioritization of a 2B to replace Nick Madrigal over a RF due to the depth of their internal options at the latter position.
Steve also opined on why such a trade might make sense to the Rays. To summarize in short, the Rays would swap Kevin Kiermaier’s salary with their abundant OF depth and replace that money by adding Craig Kimbrel to bolster a bullpen that is less deep. He feels that the Rays could fix whatever ails Kimbrel which would obviously start with him being their full time closer, a role he was not getting in Chicago with Liam Hendriks signed for at least the next two seasons. Steve also mentioned that the Rays were one of the teams pursuing Kimbrel at last summer’s trade deadline so why not continue that quest this winter with the team that ‘won’ the sweepstakes and would be more than willing to move on from their ‘prize’. lol
MadSkillsUniversity
I expect some moves this off season for sure. We need an Ace pitcher and a second base option, more lefties and……Regarding Kimbrel, he needs to go back to being a closer – somewhere else, and I love Madrigal, will miss him, but he gone, and the Cubs are years off from contention. He is where he can grow and become an Allstar, one day.
ASapsFables
I don’t see the White Sox pursuing an external “ace” this offseason. They already have Lucas Giolito under arbitration control for two more years and recently extended Lance Lynn for two more years with an additional team option for 2024. They also have a budding ace in Dylan Cease and another in Michael Kopech. They also have Garrett Crochet in the bullpen, a power armed southpaw who looks to be on the Chris Sale path to a rotation spot. Since Reynaldo Lopez had his vision issues resolved this past summer, he provides yet another option for the backend of the ChiSox rotation. The final and perhaps best option would be tagging pending FA Carlos Rodon with a QO, something he just may accept in an offseason that is full of question marks with the CBA talks.
The White Sox top priority should be finding a replacement for Nick Madrigal at 2B and perhaps RF. The White Sox look to have better internal options in RF with last winter’s signing of Cuban FA Yoelqui Cespedes and another on the way this January in Oscar Colas. As advanced prospects, they could be viable RF option as soon as 2023 and 2024. Former White Sox Marcus Semien would be my preferred FA choice for 2B this offseason with Diamondback 2B/OF Ketel Marte my top trade target. Another Marte, pending free agent OF Starling would be another great option for the White Sox in RF.
Dumpster Divin Theo
Kimbrel to Boston for…Chris Sale. Okay gonna duck now for all the incoming fire. Go!
citizen
Knowing reinn$dorf, Kimbrells option will be declined. Can’t blame Kimbrell too much, a closer put in the wrong role.
pplama
Kiermaier would be an incredibly dumb trade
$12mil for a guy who’s value is nearly all in his glove, then move him to a position where he loses all that value.
Just decline the option and eat the crow, Rick!
zainzain11
I called the Madrigal – Kimbrell trade horrible when it happened. Probably the worst move by Rick Hahn, even worst than trading Tatis. Madrigal proved he can play in big league hitting over .300, while Tatis was a teenager and no one knew he’d be a stud. Madrigal is a contact hitter who never strikes out which we lacked that in our line up. It’s like Hahn literally sabotaged the rebuild and we were stuck with a .220 hitter as 2nd baseman.
Yet, many idiot White Sox fans called it a great trade. What a shortsighted move. We could’ve had an amazing infield for years (Moncada, Anderson, Madrigal, Abreu/Vaughn). If you weren’t delusional you knew White Sox in the 2nd half of season wasn’t the same as the first half, they became somewhat mediocre (alot of injuries). We didn’t really have a chance to win this year if you looked at the 2nd half team. No need to go all in and give away young prospects which we spent years rebuilding.
Augusto Barojas
Dude if you think trading Madrigal is worse than trading Tatis, I want to try what you are smoking. Pass dat sheeit!!
Madrigal will never be compared to Tatis in his life.
Franco22
Sox had Tatis and Madrigal for the future but now have Anderson who is really an outfielder. Sox passed on Lindor but Correa is a free agent next month.. Baez and Correa would make Sox infield the best and would make Anderson available to trade for more talent if he refuses to play the outfield. Anderson would not have been an all star if Correa wasn’t hurt, Tim was and will always be a backup SS.
He could be an all star outfielder.
ASapsFables
This comment is totally dope but not in a good way. Tim Anderson is a deserved All-Star both offensively and even defensively over the past few years. His is also an important team leader on and off the field. The ideal free agent would be former White Sox SS Marcus Semien who voluntarily moved to 2B last winter after settling for a one year FA contract with the Blue Jays. I also love the dynamic of two very athletic middle infielders as the White Sox double play combo for the next 3-5 years. Additionally, the White Sox would be smart to invest in another African American to pair with Anderson considering the dearth of such players in MLB along with the fact that the team plays in the predominantly black southside of Chicago.
I’m guessing that there will be a few fans out there suggesting my comment is in some way a racist suggestion. I assure you it is not. I also love some other ethnic pairings that make sense including the double play combo in New York that happened this past summer when Javier Baez was traded to the Mets and was thrilled to be playing alongside friend and countryman Francisco Lindor.
The White Sox have one of the more diversified rosters in MLB and have always been among the most progressive teams when it comes to minority hirings. They also have had huge success with their ability to court and develop Cuban players to the point that many of them prefer playing in Chicago over any other destination. The White Sox may still be the red headed step child in their own city but they are definitely the toast of Havana! Adding Semien could also add to or solidify their popularity among the brown and black communities in Chicago, to say nothing of the impact he would have as another All-Star talent on a team poised to compete for multiple championships.
Franco22
So the Latino players in my post don’t deserve recognition. They all were voted in as all stars, they weren’t selected replacements. Don’t Latinos count as minorities or are you just a phony Caucasian who. always has to use race to make a baseball comparison. TA IS NO CORREA, BAEZ, LINDOR , TATIS , ALTUVE!
HE. NEVER WILL BE ! HE IS A BACKUP. TALENT TO THEML, GET USE TO IT!
nrd1138
Calm down buddy.. Anderson is fine, and one of the only players on the White Sox to actually hit in the playoffs. He also appeared to have cut his errors for the season in half from 2019 and earlier). You also mention two guys that were accused, and basically admitted to, cheating. yeah ‘great players’ Im sure.. Altuve.. Waiting for him to get pinched for juicing, benefiting from more stolen signs, or using a corked bat.. or all three.. Correa is awesome, especially if someone has a trash can, and neither should even be playing now for cheating to win a WS (if not for a spineless commissioner). Lindor, maybe but I think he is getting a bit older…. Baez? Isn’t this the guy who gave a thumbs down sign to fans booing a (his) pathetic performance?
Remember there is a reason why the Cubs moved Baez and I doubt it was just about money. Tatis? The only way he is on the south side now is if the Padres come to town (plus with his shoulder there is talk of moving him to the ..ahem…OF). Anderson is a good player, and really was good at shortstop this season (again halves his error total from 2019) though injuries are a concern, as with most of the Sox but Im thinking that is more on the horrible training staff the Sox seem to have. Not Sold on Semien either, with those numbers, you have to wonder how he got to them that his glove while better the last few years, is still fairly suspect (which is not good for an infielder). Ill say this, 2nd base is a major issue for the Sox. Garcia played well sure, but that is not a full season and Im sorry I cannot rely on him to be the guy.. Maybe Yolbert Sanchez is the guy (and why Madrigal was traded). Not sure.. The Sox better figure that out though, and hope Madrigal does kill them in the cross town series of his career with the Cubs.
Franco22
TA lost my vote when he called an opposing white pitcher the N word a few years ago. No public apology only the Sox catered to a narcicist who believes he’s the new Jackie Robinson. While behavior wise they may all lack credibility, at his current age TA will never match the HOF stats of the others. The change the game hype is all that it is
nrd1138
The problem at second is the least concern for the White Sox.. I wish I could say that I did not see this coming a mile away…Their ‘top’ starters all got destroyed by the Astros (and other teams at times as well throughout the season) and their hitters disappear apparently if the pitching is too good, or the temp drops to under 80 degrees.. Seeing Robert and Anderson hit well was good, but no power and Abreu disappeared when they needed him the most. Sheets hitting a homer was good to see, but Kopech, who should be the ace for this club next season, getting lit up by the Astros was not a good sign either.. Also Crochet getting roughed up.. oh boy… LaRussa was brought in and while the Sox got a pretty flag to hoist up on their flagpoles, they really had effectively the same result.. 4 and out… I think this club is missing a lot of heart and Im not sure how you can drive that into a club with LaRussa. Rodon, thanks for the memories, and Im sure he’ll go somewhere and be an All star, but I think stays hurt if with the Sox. Sox really have just as many questions for next season as they did this season.. if not more.
Franco22
Sox could not get the third strike or third out with two strikes. Many times they didn’t have the killer instinct to win. Tony saw that but he isn’t allowed to manage as he would like. He has to play the media game or the press will attempt to sway people. Its a different game in that respect. Astros have a 72 year old manager. Why did two 70 year old guys make the playoffs ? Its called baseball experience experience not inexperienced hype .