The Pirates ramped up their rebuilding efforts by trading away several key players without adding much in the way of Major League reinforcements.
Major League Signings
- Tyler Anderson, LHP: One year, $2.5MM
- Total spend: $2.5MM
Trades and Claims
- Traded 1B Josh Bell to the Nationals in exchange for RHPs Wil Crowe and Eddy Yean
- Traded RHP Jameson Taillon to the Yankees in exchange for RHPs Miguel Yajure and Roansy Contreras, SS Maikel Escotto and OF Canaan Smith
- Traded RHP Joe Musgrove to the Padres in exchange for OF Hudson Head, LHP Omar Cruz and RHPs Drake Fellows and David Bednar; Pirates also received C Endy Rodriguez from Mets as part of three-team deal
- Acquired Rule 5 RHP Luis Oviedo from Mets in exchange for cash
- Acquired OF Dustin Fowler from the Athletics in exchange for cash
- Claimed C Michael Perez off waivers from the Rays
- Claimed RHP Sean Poppen off waivers from the Twins
- Selected RHP Jose Soriano from the Angels in the Rule 5 Draft (Soriano is rehabbing from Tommy John surgery)
Notable Minor League Signings
- Todd Frazier, Brian Goodwin, Tony Wolters, Chasen Shreve, Wilmer Difo, Joe Hudson, Chase De Jong, Clay Holmes
Extensions
- None
Notable Losses
- Josh Bell, Jameson Taillon, Joe Musgrove, Trevor Williams (non-tendered), Chris Archer, Keone Kela, Derek Holland
Ben Cherington’s first year at the helm of the Pirates didn’t result in the aggressive tear-down that many anticipated, although that was in part due to injuries. Chris Archer’s thoracic outlet surgery and a series of health setbacks for Keone Kela took away a pair of obvious chips prior to last summer’s trade deadline.
This offseason, Cherington and his staff got to work on what has long felt like an inevitable tear-down of the previous regime’s roster. Gone are Josh Bell, Joe Musgrove and Jameson Taillon, each traded away for a package of multiple young players — nearly all of whom are several years away from contributing at the Major League level.
Right-hander Wil Crowe is perhaps the lone exception, and he could join the Pirates’ big league roster early in the 2021 season. Crowe doesn’t have huge upside, but he could slot into the back of a Pirates rotation that is in a transitional state after losing Musgrove, Taillon and righty Trevor Williams, who was non-tendered back in December. (Williams went on to sign elsewhere in the division, landing a one-year deal with the Cubs.)
Broadly speaking, the trades of Bell, Musgrove and Taillon are hardly unexpected. The Pirates were baseball’s worst team in 2020 and will be among the worst in 2021 as well. All three members of that trio have just two years of club control remaining, meaning none of them were likely to contribute to the Pirates’ next competitive club.
Still, there’s an argument that the Bucs would’ve been better off holding off on making any deals until this summer. Bell is coming off a miserable .226/.305/.364 showing through 57 games last season. The switch-hitting slugger’s batted-ball profile was encouraging, but his strikeout rate spiked during last year’s abbreviated season. With a big first half, it’s feasible that Bell might’ve been more in demand than he was over the winter, when few clubs were looking for everyday options at first base and/or designated hitter.
Taillon, meanwhile, hasn’t pitched since the 2019 season due to Tommy John surgery. It was the second such procedure of his career, and he has a fairly lengthy track record of injuries, so perhaps the Pirates didn’t want to risk any further setbacks. One would imagine that had Taillon demonstrated his health and looked effective in Spring Training and early in the season, however, that the Pirates might have been able to fetch a larger return. Musgrove also dealt with injuries in 2020, although he came back and finished the year with his most impressive work of the season.
None of that is intended to pan the returns the Pirates received in those deals. Seven of Pittsburgh’s Top 30 prospects at Baseball America were acquired in those trades, with another two coming via last winter’s Starling Marte swap. Any rebuilding team is faced with trying to find the right balance between trading a player at peak value and hanging onto him too long; the Pirates were burned, to an extent, by hanging onto Kela and Archer, ultimately receiving nothing in return for either player. They took a more risk-averse approach by moving Bell, Taillon and Musgrove now rather than marketing them midseason, but they also ensured themselves a respectable return on each of the three.
That said, it’s also likely that the trades were financially motivated — particularly in the case of Bell, who avoided arbitration with the Nationals by signing a one-year, $6.35MM deal after the trade. Bell, Taillon ($2.55MM) and Musgrove ($4.45MM) will earn a combined $13.35MM in 2021. Williams, whom the club cut loose for nothing, was due a raise on his $2.825MM salary (and eventually signed at $2.5MM). The Bucs lopped more than $15MM off an already modest payroll and opted not to reinvest much into the 2021 roster. They’re currently set to open the year with a team payroll shy of $45MM, the lowest in baseball by a wide margin. (Cleveland is next lowest at about $53MM.)
Pittsburgh’s lone big league signing was a one-year, $2.5MM deal with lefty Tyler Anderson. The former Rockies first-rounder had an up-and-down tenure in Colorado and a decent showing with last year’s Giants, but was non-tendered by San Francisco in December. It’s a reasonable enough price point but a little puzzling as a rebuilding team’s standalone addition of the winter. Anderson has a fairly lengthy injury history, including a pair of knee surgeries. He hasn’t been a bankable source of innings and even at his best has been more of a fourth starter.
In a vacuum, the Anderson signing is perfectly reasonable, but it feels as though it’d be better for the Bucs if Anderson was one of several additions made with the intent of bolstering the rotation after losing three veterans this winter. That’s especially true given that the Pirates could trade either Steven Brault or Chad Kuhl at any point, further depleting their starting options.
As it stands, the Pirates will try to navigate the season with Brault, Kuhl, Anderson, Mitch Keller, JT Brubaker, Crowe, Miguel Yajure and Cody Ponce as their most immediate rotation options. Other internal options will surely arise, but particularly given the possibility of a Kuhl and/or Brault trade, the club could be thin on rotation depth. Non-roster invitees James Marvel, Clay Holmes and Chase De Jong could provide some cover, as could waiver claim Sean Poppen, but this looks like a club that could use another dependable arm or two just to help get through the year.
In the bullpen, the Bucs have some once-touted pitchers (Kyle Crick, Carson Fulmer, Michael Feliz, Chris Stratton) but there’s little in the way of certainty beyond de facto closer Richard Rodriguez. The 31-year-old is quietly among the game’s more effective relievers and should give them a solid option late in games — at least until this summer when Rodriguez is likely to be on the trade market alongside pretty much every other veteran on this roster.
On the position-player side of things, the Bucs picked up some catching depth by claiming Michael Perez from the Rays and inking longtime Rockies catcher Tony Wolters to a non-roster deal. Perez hasn’t hit much in limited big league time, but the 28-year-old has a solid Triple-A track record and gives them a lefty bat to pair with right-handed-hitting Jacob Stallings.
The trade of Bell opens up first base for Colin Moran, though he’ll likely be on the market this summer himself — particularly if he can sustain last year’s uptick in power. Second baseman Adam Frazier was discussed in trades this winter, even as recently as late January, so it’s possible he could still be moved prior to Opening Day. If not, he can expect to hear his name in trade rumors throughout the year.
On the other side of the diamond, former first-rounders Kevin Newman and Cole Tucker will vie for playing time at shortstop. Tucker’s outfield experiment appears to be over, so he’ll get another look at his original position. Both have options remaining. Uber-prospect Ke’Bryan Hayes, meanwhile, should have a clear path to at-bats at the hot corner after last year’s brilliant debut. At least on the surface, gregarious veteran Todd Frazier would seem to have a good chance to make the roster as a backup option at either corner.
Pittsburgh entered the winter without much clarity in the outfield, and several months later, not much has changed. They’ll still hope for a Gregory Polanco rebound that allows them to shed at least some of his contract, while 2019 Rookie of the Year candidate Bryan Reynolds will get a chance at his own rebound in left field.
On paper, the Pirates seemed like a decent landing spot for a non-tendered outfielder with some big league experience and upside — a Hunter Renfroe or David Dahl, for instance — but they opted instead to mine the DFA/waiver market. The Bucs have a pair of former top 100 prospects to compete for time in center field: August waiver claim Anthony Alford and recent trade acquisition Dustin Fowler. They’ll be joined by veteran minor league signee Brian Goodwin, who figures to have a good chance to make the club as well. If Goodwin indeed cracks the roster, he can be controlled through 2022 via arbitration.
No one expected the Pirates to be particularly aggressive spenders in free agency this winter, but it’s still something of a surprise, given the holes on the pitching staff, that the club didn’t bring in some more low-cost help. If nothing else, any such arms could’ve potentially become trade chips this summer, and they’d have helped to prevent the team from over-relying on a collection of pitchers that has been oft-injured and inconsistent. Perhaps ownership simply wanted to keep the payroll as low as possible, and if that’s the case, then mission accomplished; the entire Pirates roster will barely earn more than Trevor Bauer alone will be paid by the Dodgers in 2021.
Winning games in the short-term clearly isn’t a priority for the Pirates as they wade through the arduous tanking process in an effort to stack their draft and international classes over the next few years. We’ve seen many clubs go through this process since the Cubs and Astros won World Series on the backs of full-scale rebuilds, but the returns have diminished over the years as more teams employ the tactic. Perhaps the Pirates will eventually emerge as a division power in the wake of these lean years, but they’re asking fans for an awful lot of patience as they gear up for what looks like another non-competitive season and a top-five pick in 2022.
How would you grade the Pirates’ offseason? (Link to poll for Trade Rumors iOS/Android app users)
They got some young intriguing arms back in those trades, plus going to add Rocker(#1 pick)
Keith Law and others have Leiter ahead of him. Its not a done deal.
I honestly think that Leiter is surpassing Rocker, too. The one knock on Leiter is that he didn’t have a big fastball. He was hovering in the lower-90’s last season and while he had well above average off speed and breaking stuff, the fastball was a bit of a concern. However, he’s now been able to reach into the upper-90’s and has touched 100. If he can consistently show that velocity up until the draft, then I think the Pirates take him over Rocker.
John Rocker and Al Leiter are unretiring from Major League Baseball to pitch for the Pirates? J/k. I don’t understand why the Pirates signed Tyler Anderson at all. They are clearly the worst team in baseball. They should be saving as much money as possible to spend on another season when they might actually be able to contend. Between the trades of Musgrove, Taillon and Bell they should have been able to find some team(s) to eat the Gregory Polanco contract. Anderson and Polanco will combine to make almost $20 million next season. Polanco makes over $14 million on his own. That money could have helped them acquire a really decent player during a different season when they have a much better chance of winning. I know it would have reduced the return in a trade to add Polanco’s contract but it’s not like the Pirates actually got any real potential stars while making these trades. Get a few less mediocre prospects and have over $14 million to spend on a real chance of contention. If you don’t waste the money on Anderson that # jumps to over $16 million. If they are spending $45 million now, getting rid of those players could cut the payroll down by more than a third. Instead of $45 million they would be topping out in the $20’s of millions. If you are going to have a joke of a season at least get your payroll as much out of the red and into the black as possible in terms of dollars per win. Either way, the Pirates are likely to get the #1 pick in the next draft. Saving over $16 million by not having Anderson and Polanco isn’t going to change that. It may have even helped. If you know you aren’t going to even come close to contending save as much money as possible for future seasons and do your best to get that top pick. The difference between last place and 17th place is basically nothing. The difference between drafting 3rd and drafting 1st is huge.
I think the Pirates did really well this off season. They got back fair market value for Bell, Taillo and Musgrove. Between the three they got 11 prospects, many of which are pretty talented. I like the direction Ben Cherington is taking. It’s nice to have some for of a plan after essentially sitting dead in the water from 2016-2019.
After doing the poll, I gave the Pirates a B. I’d give them a B+ if I could. While I expected many to give the Pirates a bad grade, I’m very shocked to see how many F’s there were so early on.
I think a lot of those F’s were people not really thinking about who the Pirates were trading. Don’t misunderstand me, either. The players traded certainly do have value. I was interested in Musgrove to the Braves before they picked up Morton and Smyly.
I think what did it was that the Pirates didn’t get back any big, recognizable prospects back and I think that unfairly impacted the grade. There weren’t any Wander Franco’s or Jarrod Kelenic’s.
I think if you look at who they traded and who they got back, I would give Cherington a B and a pat on the back as well.
I really think the Josh Bell was the most underrated trade of the off season. His best position is DH, but his bat is so inconsistent that you wouldn’t really want him at DH either. Through over 2000 plate appearances, he has less than 5 WAR (both Baseball Reference and FanGraphs). To be able to get a high-upside pitcher like Eddy Yean and a back of the rotation arm that can slot into the pitching staff now in Crowe, I think you can call it a good trade.
Maybe it’s just a coincidence, but Bell hasn’t been the same since that week where he was practicing for the Home Run Derby.
In Nats Park no less.
I’m a little surprised by all the F’s too. I like a lot of the trades they made, the returns are solid. The hard truth is that Musgrove, Tallion, and Bell all being free agents after 2022 meant that they weren’t going to be around to play for the next competitive Pirates team, so they might as well get talent in the organization that can help in the future.
I wouldn’t go as high as you are for the grades though because I don’t think they brought in enough MLB talent, which even during a rebuild you still need to do. I get that they don’t want to spend $1-3M on guys like Renfroe or Dahl, but if they breakout then you’ve got 3 years of control or they’re great trade candidates. Basically my gripe is they could have spent a little more at the low end of the market instead of primarily just digging in the waiver wire.
I agree also that’s exactly how I feel they could have got a little bit more for what they gave up I wasn’t expecting the world back in return but they could have got a little bit more I think some more people or player that could join the ball club now and play today
I gave them a C, I don’t know how much his hands were tied for signings, but I think they could have taken a shot at signing a couple more potential bounce back and trade type guys.
They had an offseason that was pretty much what I expected them to do.
Mlb1225, completely agree. B grade from me as well.
Seems that about 80% of the voters disagree, but everyone has their own opinion
They are doing what has to be done to erase the missteps and spineless decisions of the previous management group. As a 50 plus years fan I am very happy with the direction we are taking. Without Dodger or Yankee money, minus a salary cap it is the best path to take to contention.
What’s the point of spending 30 million more on players who are old, who are mediocre at best and bring them up to 74 wins. Is a 74 win team anymore interesting than a 64 win team? No. And that’s the difference between baseball and other sports. One guy won’t make a difference the way Lebron James does. Put mike trout in Pittsburg and they still lose 90 game. No point in wasting money. Lower ticket prices, concession prices and parking. That will make the game affordable to families.
Fully agree but my issue is when they traded them to get rid of the salary. They don’t have youngsters that were blocked. They could have gotten the same or better returns selling during the season.
They weren’t winning this year but stand pat during the off-season, maybe sign some wildcard player deals (Matt Moore in Philly guys like that) and sell mid season.
The pirates are at least 10 core players away from 80 wins. Probably more.
For sure but getting 11 bodies now instead of maybe 5 bodies and 2 good prospects mid season seems like a bad investment. Nothing they got this off season is more than a young body. Not 1 will be a core player (my opinion). If any turn out to be solid then it looks better.
You assume that Taillon stays healthy and performs, Bell is consistent, Musgrove is consistent and healthy., the only safe bet would have been Musgrove and who is to say that they could have gotten more for him? They stood to get less for Bell and Taillon. If you eat up 2/3 of the season, that lessens trade value as well. If they were consistent with prior seasons, who is to say that it would have changed their value after losing 2/3 of a season of control.
Musgrove is the only return I like at all. I think they could have gotten the same return if Bell went back to trash for this season and way more if he showed 2019 again.
But yeah its best case scenario thinking on my part. I just don’t see any of the return minus Musgrove even being worth more than letting them walk as FAs. So my thought would be wait and see and trade when values higher or dump salary then.
Hindsight 20/20 I would love to be wrong and for these returns to pan out.
I dont agree with your assessment of the bell trade. If he slumps they are lucky to get a crowe back, if he excels its the same kina package and maybe another lottery ticket.
No trades were salary dumps imo, what did they shed 12 mil. It was more focused for the tear 2023 and 2024 players to line up when this team should compete.
Attendance will be bad either way since we’re recovering from a pandemic. Agreed, why fight to be below average and get nothing more out of it than being just plain bad and seeing if any young talent emerges??
Attendance doesn’t matter in Pittsburgh. They are going to be limited to 7,500 fans at PNC. That’s what they average now.
18k, but close.
@nurse
Foolish Baseball on YouTube thinks that tickets to all major league baseball games should be free. I don’t necessarily agree with that, but dollar bleacher seats would fill the stands and grow interest in the game all over again.
I think he should let me go take whatever I want from his house and pay him $1 for it to grow interest in his youtube channel.
I’d be interested to see if a team breaks even selling every ticket for $1 and you can include any sales that happen inside vs the cost that incur for staffing and running the park. I wouldn’t be shocked if the answer to that is that they do not.
what on Earth does giving away tickets for free do?
How the hell is “F” leading this poll?
People think throwing money at weak players is better.
Money into toilet. Then flush.
How are there any A’s is an equally good question.
D is right behind. I voted ‘C’ because we won’t know for 3-5 years how well BC did in these trades.
The Pirates are doing what they have to do in order to contend again. The initial teardown and tanking is the most painful part of it to watch. The young players do get major league experience, however. Some make it, others don’t, and eventually you have your nucleus.
getrealgone22 hours ago
How the hell is “F” leading this poll?
==================================================
Because they didn’t get much back.
Yajusre 50 FV
Head 45 FV
Contereras 40+
Yean 40+
Compare this to what the RS got back for some low-level RPs and a backup CF:
Seabold 45
Rosario 40+
Potts 40
Wallace. 40
For what PT gave up, it felt to me like an unimpressive return. I gave them a C.
Yajure has done great at every level. Head is still 19 years old. FV’s change as players improve and develop. Head had first round talent but went in the third round because he was commited to playing QB and scouts didn’t get a full look at him.
Head also has a severe arm-bar. He is very likely going to have to reconstruct his swing to ever be able to get to the majors.
Fans read way too much into how writers and media persons rate prospects. Then add that there wasn’t a minor season last year to further their meaningless grades. Cherington and his team evaluated these same players while in a different organization and know what skills they bring to the table. He chose an actual path for the organization and stuck to it.
As far as FA signings, it takes 2 to tango. We’ll never know who the team contacted and how those talks went. B grade all the way!
Pirates that didn’t rob but got robbed.
I don’t think they got robbed in any of their trades this off season. Look at the big three:
Josh Bell for Eddy Yean and Wil Crowe
Joe Musgrove for Hudson Head, Endy Rodriguez, David Bednar, Omar Cruz and Drake Fellows
Jameson Taillon for MIguel Yajure, Canaan Smith-Njigba, Maikol Escotto and Roasny Contreras
I think it’s fair to say they got fair market value for all their veteran players. Head and Yajure are both considered two of the organization’s best prospects and MLB Pipeline ranked them as one of baseball’s most improved farm systems.
Those who think that the Pirates got robbed probably don’t follow the Pirates every day. Bell was deadweight defensively, and was becoming one offensively. The only player that I didn’t want to lose was the player with the best return…Musgrove. They were going absolutely nowhere with them so we’ll see where they’ll go in the next few as the players acquired progress.
You’re an idiot
Their goal was to tear down the roster and stack up young talent to hopefully be more competitive come 2023-2025, and they accomplished that during this offseason. I rated their offseason a B.
I’m a Pirates fan and while 99% of people in the area hate all these moves, it was kind of necessary. People say they’ve been rebuilding for 20 years, not really true and what happened in the past has no bearing on how Cherington wants to build this team. Huntington was constantly in love with flawed AAAA players and kept guys in the minors until they rotted away trade value, I think Ben did a good job in trading away “unwanted” guys for lots of young upside players.
I honestly just wish they’d have somewhat emulated the Royals route in which they’d sign some bargain free agents to hold down the fort for a year and/or deal at the deadline. I’d have spent some money in the bullpen and just auction off arms midseason.
In all fairness, there’s a lot of young arms in the pen this season for the Pirates. Nick Mears, David Bednar, Blake Cederlind and Luis Oviedo look like decent prospects. Though I do wish they’d spen a little more on the rotation. Would’ve liked to bring in Rick Porcello to give us 180 innings.
I’d agree with what you said about the Royals having a few key additions to get there but the Pirates didn’t have a few holes, most of the team was a hole. Reynolds and Newman looked like the real deal until they didn’t. Who are they really?
Trading away these guys was not a bad move. problem is they sold low/waited too long to trade at least two of them. (Bell and Taillon)
Seattle Mariners 3b Kyle Seager “at some point it has to be about winning”
Every one wants a winner. I live in a AAA town. No mlb for 400 miles. No mlb on tv. Can’t afford cable or mlbtv. I see 10 or more AAA games a season. 25 bucks gets my wife and two boys in the park. I like baseball. Who wins does not matter.
They were in an unfortunate spot heading into the offseason. They didn’t really have much of a choice but to tear it down.. Hopefully a guy like Hayes is exciting enough to make them watchable the next couple of years.
Actually, it’s an F-. Once you get past Hayes, this is a mediocre AAA team. Why would any Pirates fan go the ballpark to see this? Worse yet, none of the prospects acquired are tremendous. They’re prospects that the other team in the trade didn’t lose much sleep over. Pirates fans deserve better than this. Much better.
I prefer AAAA, myself. 🙂
This off season wasn’t about improving the major league team. This off season was about injecting as much young talent into the farm system as possible. Sure they didn’t get some top 50 prospect in baseball, but that doesn’t mean they got no talent back. Hudson Head is a player with five-tool potential. Miguel Yajure recently ranked as one of FanGraphs’ top 120 prospects and has improved/excelled at every level he’s been promoted to. They finally got a decent catching prospect in Endy Rodriguez. David Bednar looks like a future closer. Smith-Njigba could be one of their starting OF’s in a few seasons. Let’s not forget the rest of the talent in the farm system. Quinn Priester was recently named by Jonathan Mayo as a guy who could be one of basball’s premier prospects by the end of the season. Nick Gonzales was seen as one of the best pure hitters in the draft last season. Oneil Cruz has tremendous power and is a consensus top 100 prospect. Liover Peguero is a borderline top 100 prospect and a long term answer at SS. They have a ton of young pitchers too like starters Tahnaj Thomas, Brennan Malone, Carmen Mlodzinski, Cody Bolton, Roasny Contreras and relievers Luis Oviedo, Blake Cederlind and Nick Mears.
The Pirates got a whole bunch of underrated talent this off season and I don’t see how this can be an F once you look more into it. They fair market value for Musgrove, Bell and Taillon and I’d contend that Cherington hasn’t made a bad trade yet. That’s way more than what the old regime can say they got for most of their pieces.
I voted F in a cumulative sense. Maybe they are finally making steps in the right direction but this organization has been pretty bad at trying to win lately; however if this is the first step to a sensible rebuild than certainly an F is unwarranted. I’m just skeptical. I haven’t seen much of a plan in previous years.
In simplest terms if you were another teams fans and your team gave up a top 100 prospect for Musgrove, bell, or taillion would you be happy. I am going to say no. The pirates did great for what they were trading
You’re not gonna get tremendous prospects for trading mediocre – good mlb players.
Ask the Rays about that and the Archer trade. Mediocre to good at times Archer for Glasnow and Meadows…
MLB teams have an obligation to provide at least some talent on the field for their team to root for. In this bizarre off- season, they could have still made all these trades and added some lower end free agents on minor league contracts for the Pirates fans to root for. At least there would be a few recognizable names on the roster. This team will struggle to get to 50 wins. Disgraceful and embarrassing. The worst professional sports organization in this country.
You obviously don’t watch the ownership organization of the Washington NFL franchise.
Do people think that the only way to have a good off-season is by signing every free agent and trade for every all-star you can? Because it isn’t. I gave the Pirates a B. If they could’ve “fleeced” just one of those teams it’d be an A, but it’s a B nonetheless. They got a ton of prospects this off-season for players that had diminishing trade value, and I like that. This was a good off-season… for a REBUILDING club. B.
They didn’t fleece anybody, but they got back fair market value, maybe a little more, for what they had. Not every team is going to be able to pull what the Rays did to the old Pirates regime with the Chris Archer trade. They did what they set out to do: inject the farm system with a ton of young talent, and good young talent at that,
I guess I kinda blame them for not having anything better to trade than what they had.
Why do people use the word fleece so much on here? It’s like the vocabulary word of the day, everyday.
Piece and package are used too much here too.
Have them a C because I think they are doing a good job of replacing the old regime with guys who could end up being sleepers. All they really need are inning eaters and some vets and they will win 70 games. Teach the young guys some things and boom they will be back in the playoffs in 2-3 years
I’m the world’s largest proponent of a salary “floor” for MLB teams, but I also would provide any team (and especially small market ones like Pitt) one year to drop back and punt.
2021 obviously is that year for the Pirates. They can be criticized for not waiting until the deadline, when they unquestionably would have gotten more for most of the players they dealt (Musgrove almost certainly, Bell likely, and Taillon possibly). But Cherrington took over such a train wreck, drastic action was almost required.
And really folks, what do we know of prospects? Our sources are mlb pipeline and Baseball America and Fangraphs, etc. It’s reasonable to assume MLB teams have a more accurate assessment of a player’s potential.
And yes, there is utility to winning 75 games as opposed to 65. First of all, #1-1 draft choices just don’t have a higher achievement curve than, say, #1-10. And as we know, some have been outright busts. How warm and cozy would you feel if a team “tanked” so it could get Tim Beckham?
Fans who fork over $40 for a ticket deserve a competitive team, ALL THE TIME. And (as I’ve said ad nauseum) , you never get back the money you lost during a “tank”; it’s as idiotic as any bad contract you can think of.
I’m not saying they deserve an “A”, or even a “B”. I’d give them an “Incomplete” to see where they go from here.
It may have changed, but #1 for sure had a higher average output than #10. I think fangraphs may have done an article about it a few years ago. Regardless, the extra pool money you get at #1 vs #10 isn’t insignificant, either.
On average, players drafted 1st overall have the highest WAR of any draft slot. Then #2. Then #5 (due largely to the contributions of former #5 overall picks JD Drew, Mark Teixiera, Ryan Braun and Buster Posey). Just because some #1 overall picks have busted in the past doesn’t mean drafting #1 isn’t better than drafting #10.
And you never explained exactly HOW there is any utility to winning 75 games as opposed to 65.
And as @1984wasntamanual pointed out, drafting 1st also means you get the bigger bonus pool.
Gees, Batman, maybe you get a few more fannies in the seats, and a few more eyeballs for your RSN.
Unless you drop ticket prices (and advertising rates) during your “tank”, you’re gouging the fan base. Hard Stop. And with 95% of stadia being publicly financed in one way or another, it’s highly unethical.
“Oh I’m sorry, sir. Your steak was improperly prepared? Come back in two years, and we’ll get better cooks”.
Lol OK b00mer. If this rebuild goes as hoped and they manage to win a championship in like 2025, do you really think their fans are going to care if the team won 65 games instead of 75 in 2021? Trust me, they won’t.
Winning 75 games as opposed to 65 puts you closer to winning. No first round pick is gonna make up that ten game gap. Plus, it’s better for the fans if the team wins more.
No it does not! If you win 75 games you still have a LONG way to go if you want to contend.
Winning 75 games as opposed to 65 means nothing if those extra wins aren’t sustainable. Like say, if they go out and sign/trade for a bunch of guys on one-year contracts. Now if those 10 extra wins come because guys like Ke’Bryan Hayes and Oneil Cruz come up and do what they are supposed to do then that’s a whole nother story.
Yes it is better for the fans if the team wins more and that is why they should focus on the rebuild, tanking for high draft picks and targeting key prospects in trades, rather than wasting capital on players that will make them suck slightly less now. So that they can win more when their window does open.
As long as they are patient with their Cherington, he will rebuild that team. It will be a long arduous journey but in a few years they will be competitive. He won’t have payroll for dumb deals like Hanley and pablo, so he should be alright.
Rotation:
Brault
Kuhl
Keller
Crowe
Anderson
Brubaker
The pen is solid as acknowledged in the article.
Lineup:
A. Frazier
Reynolds
Moran/T. Frazier
Polonco
Hayes
Tucker/Oliva
Newman
Wolters/Stallings
This team isn’t going to win the World Series but they aren’t going to be the 61 Mets either.
The starting staff isn’t embarrassing, the bullpen is potentially above average with a highly efficient closer, the defense is straight up stout in many areas led by Hayes, and you have some players potentially playing for another viable contact like Polonco not to mention some players with something to prove like Reynolds who never at any level had a bad season like 2020 so I see a major output there as well.
I don’t think it’ll be as dark as many are projecting & I think they’ll surprise many up until the deadline!
No team will ever be the “61” Mets.
Look everyone! It’s that cat! The muh-contrarian lol…
I agree with you Pauly2112. I’m looking forward to seeing this team play in 2021. The rotation could be decent and the bullpen has lots of promise. Bednar and Shreve could be nice additions. I think the lineup will probably be more like this:
Newman
Reynolds
Hayes
Moran/T. Frazier
Polanco
A. Frazier
Fowler/Goodwin/Alford
Stallings/Wolters
I’m thinking Tucker starts out the year in AAA. Only two of the three outfielders fighting for the CF job make the team. Gonzalez and Evans could be fighting for the 12th spot, unless they take 13 position players.
This team could win more games than the Rockies.
Not impressed with the return in any of the trades to be honest. Smith-Njigba looks good, but the rest…euh imo. not enough reclamation projects signed.
Which players have you seen?
i mean, do I have to see all of them to render judgements on them. ive been over the numbers of most of them from even before they were dealt. lots of lottery ticket type velo guys and low minors guys who are hit or miss. I also like Cruz and Crowe, but neither of them is a sure bet either.
Most of the people making comments on here are not Pirate fans and base their opinions on what the hear from the talking heads on the national stage. If you listen to and read the local guys who follow the team every day and have done the real research on these prospects and actually know what they are talking about, you would understand our optimism for the future. MLB network and that non-sports network (espn) only want to talk about the big market teams $$$$$$$$$
Jimbobroy30 mins ago
If you listen to and read the local guys who follow the team every day and have done the real research on these prospects
=======================================================================
I doubt they know anything more than we do.
I follow the RS, and none of their writers, outside Lou Merloni, are baseball people. I doubt the PT writers are any better. All we know is what the ratings agencies tell us. And the MLB-R readers can read the same scouting reports as the PT writers.
While I have no doubt that the FO knows more than us, the writers do not. As of today, the prospects that PT received are likely to be whatever joints like FG tell us they are.
Feel free to highlight a couple and let us know why you think they will be major league players.
its just classic gatekeeping here once again. i mean, whats the purpose of these comment sections if people think non-GMs have no place to criticize moves made by GMs. they aren’t infallible by any means, and whether or not us commenters are correct doesnt matter, because we have every right to believe they are wrong.
The jury is still out but a solid “B” for having a plan and aggressively acting on it.
While it’s way too early to truly assess this off-season for the Pirates, the low grades here seem out-of-line. The Pirates are in the early stages of a rebuild. That generally means cleaning house and creating some organizational depth. That is what’s being done.
Time will tell. Be patient (again), Pirates fans. Ben Cherington has a difficult job to do. Judging by his resume and reputation for judging young talent, I think the Pirates hired the right guy. The key will be how much leeway he’s given in calling the shots. If his budget is reasonable by small-market standards, then he has a good chance of succeeding.
Cey Hey34 mins ago
Ben Cherington has a difficult job to do. Judging by his resume and reputation for judging young talent, I think the Pirates hired the right guy.
=====================================================================
Cherry was a pretty poor judge of young talent with the RS, so I hope, for Pirates’ sake, that he has improved. His 2012, 13, 14 & 15 drafts only resulted, so far. In Benintendi.
None of the other draftees have a career bWAR of 1.5 or higher. And only 4 have a career bWAR of 1.0 or higher (besides Benny). At least in regard to the US draft, he might be one of the worst ever.
He signed Rafael Devers and Yoan Moncada, drafted Andrew Benintendi and Michael Kopech, and acquired Eduardo Rodriguez for Andrew Miller. He also oversaw the development of Betts and some of the other players responsible for Boston’s 2018 championship run. The Sox got better under his leadership, largely due to the development of young players.
Exactly exactly he had a major part in building that Red Sox World Championship team. Cherrington is a thinking organization’s GM. He’s not going to make moves to take down your franchise he’s not Dombrowski but you can still get the same results you have to be more patient with cherrington but your farm system your team your organization will be in order no overspending but players will be happy no giving away free money because of the luxury tax no stripping or depleting the farm system instead he will add to it Cherington is a good GM I like him. He’s perfect in Pittsburgh. The pirate organization is one that has patience as well it’s just that their fans deserve a winning team a competitive team not a team that they can guarantee you in last place they might end up there this season but after this season I don’t see them being there like that they’re going to have full control over their team with nobody paycheck running Buck Wild out-of-control they’re not worried about the Trevor Bauers,Jake Odorizzis.,etc… they’re about long-term and putting a solid Club on the field I like cherrington I gave them a d only because I wanted them to get a little bit more to help the team now
Devers was good.
Moncada was simply an int’l FA and outbid everyone.
Kopech has talent, but still has nothing to show for it.
ERod was a good acquisition, but he had a really good trading chip.
And he doesn’t get get credit for guys like Betts, who other people drafted/ Otherwise, every GM will become a good GM, either because of whom he drafted, or because of whom his predecessor drafted.
I think they get an F for being so miserable and cheap. They should’ve reinvested or taken on some bad contracts
I’m happy with the plan. I’m a life long Pirates fan and was frustrated with the direction of the club after 2016. I like gm Ben c and the complete dismantling he has undertaken. The real test will be what do they do in 2024 or 2025 when the kids start arriving. Will payroll increase then? Will they add the pieces they need to get over the top then?
I think people pay to much attention to the young players needing development as opposed to the minor league managers and coaches who are responsible for the actual development.
BC clearing out old regime players is secondary to clearing out old regime coaching staffs
If you voted F please explain
Exactly exactly he had a major part in building that Red Sox World Championship team
Typical MLBTR double-guessing moves a franchise makes. Followed by many fans doing the same (Spreading Discontent “R”Us…typical US media)..
If you’re going to buy some penny stock growth companies you intend to hold for at least 3-5 years, do you make your decision on whether the price was 33 cents a share or 45 cents a share? Do you worry that maybe you shouldn’t have sold ABC company to get the cash to buy the growth stocks at 12.50 when maybe you can get $13.75 for them if you hold onto them for 6 months (of course, ABC company could also go down to $10)?
People that do business plans for companies make a determination of what products they want to market (i.e. what style of baseball they want to play – PNC is a big yard) what assets (i.e. ballplayers) can best make up the product. When assets become available at an agreed upon price point, those in charge pull the trigger. They keep an eye on assets they couldn’t get today, and if circumstances change they pick up those assets sometimes years later. Rest assured that Carrington and his staff had a list of their players on the board that they felt were available to move for prospects, and another list of prospects they’re interested in. And rest assured that those lists were compiled by tens of thousands of hours of scouting, taking to managers and coaches at lower levels, analyzing data on the players, and watching all video available on candidate players. None of which anyone working at MLBTR knows about.
The new administrations target date is very probably 2024-25 just for the bulk of first phase of prospects making it to the majors and adjusting to the competition (some will trickle up before then). This petty double guessing at this point in the process is simply absurd. In short – this is hardly a professional way of sharing with baseball fans how the new Pirates front office have begun their building of the Pirates teams at both the major and minor league level, A better analysis might be to look at the type of players they’ve acquired – power pitchers vs. pitch to contact; position players that emphasize or deemphasize offense, defense, speed, power, etc……and map that with the coaching staff they have at the ML level and the instructors they’ve brought on to work with players in the minors.
will you be giving out appologies if it turns out anyone here was actually right about being pessimistic?
Samuel58 mins ago
This petty double guessing at this point in the process is simply absurd.
=======================================================================
This type of response is illogical, imo.
There is a poll attached to the article. The poll, which asks us to grade the PT off-season, requires us to predict an unknown future. There is no logical reason for you to read the comments, which will all have an element of prediction, if you don’t like predictions.
I gave them a B. I thought they brought in a fair amount of prospects and, outside of Musgrove, did not give up much. With his second TJ, Taillon is a huge gamble.
I am not a proponent of signing free agents to sign free agents. Spending more money is not a sign of having a plan or necessarily that the club is making a move to put a competitive team on the field. I compare the Pirates and the Angels. Both teams have posted four winning seasons from 2011 to 2020. The Angels have made one post-season appearance while the Pirates have made three. The Angels spend close to twice the payroll as the Pirates every year. Their extra payroll hasn’t been any more successful than the Pirates.
Agreed. Small market clubs must exercise more financial responsibility and the approach the Pirates are taking makes sense for this franchise. Lifelong Bucs fan looking forward, as always, to this years team. Let’s Go Bucs!
To everyone voting F, what exactly is it that you think they were supposed to do?
Field a competitive team.
The reason there are so many F’s is bc most fans are fed up with the whole trade away your best vets for lottery tickets rinse repeat. So you gave it an A or B because possibly sometime in the unknown future the Pirates will be competitive. Just for Nutting to spend next to nutting to get the team over the hump and possibly back to a playoffs. Keep on drinking Nutting’s kool aid
Pirates will struggle to win 50 games. How is their off-season anything other than an F.
Honestly, I gave them an A. This was a bad team. Even if those traded away had career years, this team was probably not even getting 81 wins (.500 ball). Even spending a ton of money probably wouldn’t get them to 90. Then there wasn’t much behind them all.
This offseason was the ONLY way forward for this club. Those question marks were traded for decent value and now their farm system is easily top-10, some rating them as highly as 3rd or 4th. They have the #1 pick and probably will again. This offseason was really the only legitimate path to take, unfortunately… I can also completely understand those giving Ds and Fs; just different perspectives.
B. Could see a C. They didn’t do anything special. Traded away a #3, a #2 with 2 tjs and a weak dh with upside. They had no use for them with only 2 years of control. Only question is if they thought they would increase their value at the deadline. They didn’t. No use spending money when the goal is to trade more players and get high draft pick. Don’t have to worry about fans. Perfect season to rebuild.
Pirates have been a rudderless ship since the Cutch era. Yes, the rudder (New GM i.e.) has them heading in a specific direction now, but gonna be a whole lotta rough seas between now and and when the ship finally reaches land.
One saving grace is the fact that the NL Central looks weaker than it’s been for decades. Only the Cardinals look intent on winning. The rest? Out on the ocean with the Bucs, but closer to shore.
Bucs may never contend so long as ownership tosses nickels around like man covers. Pity, because PNC is one of the best stadiums in the country. Best skyline view of any of the newer downtown parks.
And, yes, Buc fans have proven they’ll show up. But they ain’t gonna keep showing up if they don’t think ownership is trying.
The Pirates current ownership isn’t committed to Championship Caliber Baseball. The 45 million payroll is laughable even though the team is going through a rebuild.