Shortstop stands out as an area of need for the Reds at the moment, and owner Bob Castellini has indeed pushed the front office to address it this offseason, Ken Rosenthal of The Athletic reports. The Reds even asked the Yankees for shortstop Gleyber Torres and then some in talks centering on right-hander Luis Castillo, but New York turned Cincinnati down, according to Jon Heyman of MLB Network.
Cincy’s shortstop reps primarily went to Freddy Galvis and Jose Garcia in 2020, but the team can’t count on either as its solution in 2021. Galvis is a free agent, after all, while the 22-year-old Garcia may not be ready for prime time just yet. Garcia hadn’t advanced past High-A ball before the Reds promoted him last year, when he batted .194/.206/.194 without a home run in 68 plate appearances. He also notched far more strikeouts than walks (26 to one), and his 3 wRC+ ranked second to last among 388 major leaguers who amassed at least 60 trips to the plate.
Garcia’s first-year struggles seemingly set the stage for the Reds to at least find a veteran stopgap at short, though it’s unclear how aggressive they’ll be during what has so far been a payroll-cutting offseason in which they’ve already said goodbye to the likes of Raisel Iglesias and Archie Bradley. Moreover, several of their notable players – Castillo, Sonny Gray, Mike Moustakas, Nick Castellanos and Eugenio Suarez among them – have come up in trade speculation, while reigning Cy Young winner Trevor Bauer is a free agent who seems likely to sign with another team before next season.
The good news for the Reds is that this offseason’s free-agent class features a few proven starting shortstops, with Galvis, ex-Red Didi Gregorius, Marcus Semien and Andrelton Simmons leading the charge. Gregorius is a possibility for the team at this point, Rosenthal relays. Reuniting with Gregorius would be a significant move in an NL Central division whose teams have made more notable subtractions than additions this offseason. As of now, aside from the last-place Pirates, it seems like just about anyone’s division to win.
Castillo, meanwhile, will “very likely” remain a Red, Heyman writes. There’s no reason for the Reds to part with Castillo for anything but an enormous offer, as he’ll make just $4.2MM in 2021 and has two more years of team control remaining after that.
Safe to say teams don’t want the Yankees fan package of Frazier andujar and Schmidt like they keep insisting teams will accept
As a Yankees fan it’s embarrassing.
You mean just like how the padres were able to send a pile of crap for Snell and Darvish.
We did not send a pile of crap for Snell – we had to give up one of the top 30 prospects in baseball. Sure, the Darvish return was a little light, but to be fair, he is a 34-year old pitcher who is paid $20 million a year. Castillo would cost a lot more than Darvish.
Perksy obv does not have much understanding how all this works. Best to ignore him/her.
Another triggered Padres fan lol, so many coming out of the woodwork
When the pads give up what they did for Snell, and people are saying a Yankee fan package of Frazier, Andujar, Schmidt for Castillo. No one know what the yanks offered the reds or what was even discussed beyond Torres.
Patiño is a top 25 prospect in baseball and Cole Wilcox will be top 100 at the midseason reranking. On Darvish, I honestly don’t know what y’all were expecting for a guy who one year ago, Cubs fans were hoping, no, praying, would opt out of his contract.
Zach Davies was a decent return. Sure wish he was still with the Brewers, but our GM doesn’t know WTF he’s doing.
King Beas hit the nail on the head… much like someone obviously hit Chip Chipperson’s mom
I’ve been known to “Chip” that occasionally.
It’s also annoying how every Yankee thread always turns into “how we can trade Stanton!!!” in the comments. Just pay the luxury tax and shaddap already.
like
Every Yankee thread? Try like 1 Yankee thread in 10, if that, this offseason. And usually it’s short-lived. I know there was a big one yesterday, probably the biggest ever, but that does not translate into “every Yankee thread.” Please. Let’s be honest.
Every fan base has meatballs. Yankees fans are just the loudest and most self important
I reject that. Red Sox fans are.
Criminal…Outside of you of course!
Yankees just have the most fans.
“shaddap”? It’s not cute. Just use real words already.
Your narrative, much like that on a national scale, is taking what a small group says and applying it to the larger associated group, then misappropriating the statement to fit your narrative.
Yankees fans could rag on you and your team just as well, but we tend not to jump on your articles simply to troll.
As usual, we are more important to them than they are to us.
@mo, @joe, @clip
Found my guys.
Personally, I’m cool with not trading Gleyber. I’m with Cashman on this. Reds can go kick rocks if that’s the price.
Not that Castillo isn’t worth that? Maybe I guess? But I really like him & see more growth in his future. This is a player you can easily picture receiving MVP votes, man.
Ducky.. I was wondering your take on this. Personally I would be willing to move Torres but not much else. I say this because of the amount of SS options available this and especially next year. Also because Torres is better at the keystone than SS.
Hard to argue with any of the points you made.
Not only next year, but this year as well there are some pretty good shortstops available. Yanks do have offense.
I’m probably just overvaluing a player I like. Go easy on me. I’m fully prepared to lose Gardy & Tanaka this off-season (my two current favorite Yankees). Be real hard to see Gleybae go, too.
I guess I’d have to see how the rest of the roster looks. For example; are they backfilling with Galvis or Semion or Didi or Tyler Wade. Pretty big differences.
Ya know?
Anyway, that’s why I build my trade proposal around Dominguez. Trade the teenager not the proven MLB commodity.
I agree, I would consider moving him IF they were willing to spend and fix the problem, not cheap out and sign Simmons to a five-year deal. But Torres, Dominguez and more? Nope. It would route the Yankees for years to come for two years of Castillo. Not worth it with all their players coming through arbitration now.
I’m big on Dominguez so I would not want to move him at all.
But I get your point on Torres. And I’m by no means upset they’re keeping him. You’re definitely right on who the replacement would be. It would be bad if they went with Wade instead of someone like Simmons.
Agree. Keep Torres and for god’s sake keep Frazier in the lineup, he’s proved that he can play every day
Dominguez is a lot to dream on.
But he’s 17 & hasn’t taken an at bat in any level of MiLB. So we have really no idea what to expect from him.
He could be the next Mike Trout.
Odds are much better he’s the next Greg Bird, or whatever. Castillo is one of the players I’d cough him up for, though.
What do you guys think of trading Voit and or Ottavino? To bring in another starter. And maybe sign a 1 year gap at SS. Move Gleyber to 2B, DJL to 1B.
As a fan of Voit, I’d say no to moving him. I also don’t think it’s a great idea to move DJLM to first. He just isn’t as good there.
With Ottovino, Boone loses confidence in him late in the season, so just as well salary dump him. Not that he would bring anything back and a portion of his contract would have to be paid by the Yankees.
I don’t see a starter worth having with those players.
I don’t think Ottavino has any trade value. Archie Bradley just signed for 6 MM. Otto’s AAV = 9 mil.
Don’t see a lot of value in Luke Voit, either. I see a lot of the “just move DJ to first” stuff. That would torpedo a bunch of his worth.
Ottavino can be salvaged. Outside of Buffalo he had a good year. Gave up about two thirds of all his runs this season there. Yanks need to add a couple pen arms thus reducing his role. That slider will still play in certain match ups.
I don’t think those two will get much, if anything.
Yes but I think Simmons is a stopgap. They would need to pivot to Story, for example to truly succeed, imho.
The thing that holds my excitement in check over Simmons is the injury stuff. When he’s healthy…my goodness what a fun player to watch.
It’s just with the unbelievable injury problems the Yanks have I’m leery of any player with questionable durability.
Story would be a great get. Really like him. Colorado is an “interesting” team. I can see them just *not* trading Arenado & extending Story & being content to keep they’re homegrown stars & lose 90+ games/year.
They’ll still draw fans.
Castillo has three years of control.
The nice thing about Simmons aside from the elite defense is he doesn’t strike out much. I think he would hit better as a Yankee than in Angel stadium, but the injury history is a concern. He wouldn’t solve the problem, but I wish the lineup was a bit more left handed.
Makes sense on Voit and Ottavino. I was just hoping they could somehow add more to the staff, and balance out the lineup somehow by staying under the the 210.
Love to see Hal kick down for LaStella. I really started to like him when I was looking at possible DJ replacements.
LH bat. Incredible contact rates.
Cashman has pursued that type of player in the past: DJ, Neil Walker.
I don’t see how.
20 MM would plug all remaining holes though. I don’t think we’re done spending.
True Yankee Clipper. the narratives from all these baseball “experts” on this site are always;
Yankee stadium is a band box and all offensive stats, especially home runs, should be banned from baseball statistics keeping.
Yankee fans are the only ones who hype and over hype their minor league prospects.
Yankee fans always over value players they will include in trades
Yankee fans troll every other team all the time and never know what they are talking about when it comes to baseball….ESPECIALLY all these modern metrics commenters use constantly to explain poor performance.
And on and on, and. on…
No way Frazier and Schmidt were going to Cincy in a package for Castillo. The Yankees would likely offer one or the other but not both.
Castillo is worth that, no doubt. Schmidt has proved nothing.
It might be time to close the book on Mickey Clint Frazier Gehrig. Some guys just never get past the “has potential” label. I probably shouldn’t say it…don’t say it…I’m have to say it…don’t you dare say it…I’m sayin it…BUSSSSSSSSSST!
We still haven’t seen what the guy can do with a full major league season of 500 AB’s.
Maybe the only pitcher the Padres would consider giving up prized ss prospect Abrams for would be Castillo. Even then that’s a risk because of the upside Abrams possesses. He has All-star potential.
Or the Padres can screw off and leave some star targets for the rest of the league.
You know why they are getting all these star targets? Because they are overpaying. Apparently Preller is the only GM that didn’t realize revenues are down because of covid.
He just got Musgrove too.
No. He has an owner who wants to win. Wish most of the others were so willing. Owners who cheap out cheat the fans
@JDGoat, man I get it. The last two years I could have never imagined this happening as an SD fan. The Padres are San Diego’s only pro sports team. The Chargers followed the Clippers to LA. To say San Diegan s aren’t used to this is an understatement. These are uncharted waters for our fan base. Exciting times but seriously not trying to be a jerk just hoping for this city’s first ever championship.
I don’t think the Padres would trade Abrams for Castillo. We already made big moves in bringing in Snell and Darvish, and we don’t really need another starting pitcher. My guess is that the Padres sign a reliever or two and then we will be ready for the season.
The Padres have an embarrassment of riches as it is. Don’t you go giving them any bright ideas!
the thing is it usually take 2-3 years to play like a champ.
The Reds are crazy if they trade Castillo. He’s got two more years before free agency.
Make that three years.
Abrams seems like a smart trade candidate considering they seem to be set around the infield for the foreseeable future.
Only for 4 more years (3 if Machado opts out which isn’t likely but he still has that option)
Hell No!!! Castillo and 3 top 40 prospects FOR Torrres and maybe the Yanks will talk
Hope that’s sarcasm.
Hell NO! Highway Robbery!
I’d rather have Castillo and nothing than Torres. You’re nuts to think he’s worth more than Castillo with his bad defense.
LOL. You gotta love Yankees homers. No way the Reds would add top prospects to that trade. Castillo for Torres and a lottery ticket would probably get the deal done.
As a yankee fan I take that trade, prime controlled sub 4 era pitchers are hard to find. Sure there’s upside to Torres but gotta take risks to fill the holes and the yanks aren’t going anywhere with this current rotation.
You should root for the Royals.
But seriously, I think the yankees are counting on Severino and German. Not that I agree with their assessments. Ever.
Hey man I’m a realist the whole reason we don’t have a championship in 11 years is cashman’s propensity to take flyers out on injury comeback pitchers. Sevy hasn’t really pitched in 2 years German over a year, kluber 30 innings in 2 years. How many things do you expect to go right?
By the way, Steve, Eve, Dan, Matt, Mike are all really good people. Lucky to have met them.
I agree. Torres for Castillo straight up would get it done from a Yankees perspective but I understand the reds wanting more. While Torres has a ton of upside and is a great hitter his defense plays better at 2B. The Yankees have enough hitting in that offense that they can do without Torres but they really need pitching. If I were cash I’d give the reds Torres and one other good semi established player and a well regarded but young prospect for Castillo and then try to sign didi back. Torres and 3 high ranking prospects might be a bit much
Cashman got pretty specific about future adds this off-season: a 3rd tier pitcher, bullpen help, maybe bring back Gardy.
So in the rotation I don’t think we’re done. I’m looking for a decidedly unsexy signing like Hamels, Sanchez, Anderson.,,someone of that ilk.
What? Don’t they have Gerrit Cole?
@Ducky – Only way they do all of that is by going over the CBT. Not sure they are willing to do so. Sure they can try to trade Ottavino, but no one is taking his full $9M salary. Teams are either sending a bad contract back to the Yankees or asking the Yankees to pay $4-$5M of it. That would still only open about $8M in total cap space. Will be awfully hard to add a starter, RP & Gardy with only $8M. Yankees just need to say the heck with it and burn past the CBT again if they truly want to compete for a championship. They are way behind the Dodgers, Padres & Braves as currently constituted.
For sure @mantooth –
Here’s what I’m going off of:
– the aforementioned free agent targets. This is directly from Cashman. You nailed it. That *would* require going over the first threshold
– & why wouldn’t they? Not going over the CBT level is a fan narrative
– Cashman said he “expects the Yanks to have the highest payroll in baseball”. Again this is *directly* from Cashman. Not Yanksfan00278 or whomever.
– why pick up Britton’s option?
– why not DFA Sanchez?
– why settle with Judge so quickly?
– why bump right up against 210 in mid January?
I know as a red sox fan, you probably don’t want to see the Yanks throw money around this winter. Misery loves company, uh? But I’m basing my take directly on what Cashman has stated. Plus looking at their actions.
@goingyard
Yes.
They do.
Glad we settled that.
Well Britton i think besides he is a lefty, yankees just lost Holder and kahnle, they still have young guys, maybe some of the young starters that can do well in the bp, but if Britton left, they would have what Green and Otavino? As “safe” options i mean.
And what’s the users of this page obsession with Sanchez? The man is getting 6M, not 60. I seriously don’t think of a better catcher they can get for that value (by Sanchez’s age at least). The guy still has tons of upsides, if he can turn at least his offensive slump around and improve his defense, 6M will look cheap. If not, well he will be a slightly overpaid #2 catcher, be released and make a lot if people happy it seems…
DAN – How do you know Shoeless Joe is a Yankees fan? Seems like that’s presumptuous.
I’m assuming that Shoeless Joe is a Yankees fan because his trade idea is so insane that only a Yankees fan could make it. Castillo is worth more than Torres.
Your position assumes that only a Yankees fan could posit a poor trade this it is from a position of biased groupthink. You could try espousing views that further conversation or address the individual. By the way, you do realize you haven’t exactly won anything right? Your team is going for it… this is it. You have your window and that’s it for your lifetime. Enjoy the seat at the table while you have it because while the Yankees are winning #35 your team will be “rebuilding.”
Lol
@Clipper –
Feisty today, uh?
“#35 while your team will be ‘rebuilding'”. Ayup.
No idea which team he roots for but I bet there’s a real good chance you nailed it.
Just sick of seeing so many people that should be celebrating their own teams’ moves concentrating on trying to intentionally be jackwagons to an entire fan base for no reason. Just indicative of the type of people they are at the core…
What’s worse is they just repeat each other’s phrasing. They aren’t even original and it’s so mind numbing.
I get it.
We all get fan our own way. Personally, I don’t see how just repetitively trolling the Yankees fans is worthwhile, fun, or interesting.
To each their own, I guess.
& – yeah – the lack of originality sucks. C’mon fellas. Enough with the copy & paste put downs. At least make it interesting.
Padres have one good season (60 game season) and they think they know everything! HAHAHAH
The only team in the NL to even challenge the Dodgers will be the Padres who should at least be in the playoffs this year.
Actually Castillo for Torres is close to a fair trade. Luis was excellent last season and has three years of control.
When all else fails go with Freddy Galvis. He can hold down the position.
The reds are higher than I was my first I went to Colorado if they think that getting “Torres and then some” for Castillo is going to happen.
Well Castillo is more valuable than Torres all things (contract, position) than Torres. If Torres was good defensively at SS it would be a little different.
Padres have alot of short stops on their 40
Simeon woods Richardson, kloffestien, and Vladdy jr. Give us the young ace please and thank you. We’ll also throw in some lower level prospects as a sweetener. Call us Cinci ☎️
The Jays have the prospects to land Castillo. Groshans has to be in that deal. SWR, Kloffestien, and Moreno.
Up front.. I have no horse in this race.. but, strictly on valuation.. for the Jays to acquire Castillo and to make it truly fair, they’d add Austin Hendrick.. the Jays would have to surrender Austin Martin, Gordan Groshans Simeon Woods Richardson and Moreno.. The BTV site numerically evaluates this deal as agreeing within 1 1/2 % of the value for both sides.
IDK who would hang up first.. but it would be closer, regardless.. Some deals are just not meant to happen..
So franchise star for a few years of a #2 or 3 pitcher. I mean the Reds thought signing Castellanos and Moustakas was smart so they might think they got a chance.
Gleyber Day ain’t even a franchise star at the family pickup games son put down the pipe
Yes the real star is Puig right? Big bad racism! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA it really NEVER gets old! Copy and paste the John Candy again!
Franchise star?
Easy to see why the Yankees refused to consider including Gleyber Torres in a Castillo deal. While Torres may never become a top flight shortstop he has a very high ceiling offensively and is only 24. The Yankees will need to go elsewhere to find more pitching. Perhaps to Pittsburgh for a starter an to the free agent market for reliever(s).
It’s still surprising that they would spend most of their remaining salary budget to sign Kluber for 11 Million! If he turns out to be anything less than a solid #2 starter that makes at least 20 starts, this will be a terrible signing.
Meanwhile The Reds don’t seem to have any plan at all.
Mickey777 If the Yankees didn’t pay Kluber 11M, he would’ve gotten a similar deal from another team. Who else should they have signed instead? Bauer is out of their price range. Paxton is a risk just like Kluber. Tanaka would’ve been a safer signing, but he doesn’t have the same ceiling Kluber does, and one of their young guys could easily step up and put up similar numbers.
I agree with just about everything you said, but the bottom line is still for 11 million in this Covid 19 atmosphere in order for this to be an OK signing he has to be a solid #2 starter that makes at least 20 starts. I get that other teams made similar offers, but every team’s circumstances are different. The Yankees had only about 15 million to spend and they spent 11 of it on a big gamble. I was hoping for Musgrove but he’s gone now. They could have waited to mid season, gotten a better idea of their young pitchers and of the health of Severino. It will be interesting to see how it turns out!
Yes and no. They have been talking up Clarke Schmidt for awhile now. Who was the last pitcher the Yankees signed that actually lived up to his billing? CC
Hiroki Kuroda?
Gerit Cole?
An argument can be made Cole hasn’t been there long enough to qualify.
Well judging by the Iglesias trade to the angels they may trade Castillo to the yanks for a bucket of batting practice balls
That was a salary dump of a one year contract for someone they think they can. replace. Castillo is a 2 borderline ace and controlled through 2023 via arbitration who will make roughly half of Iglesias’s salary in 2021.
I wouldnt trade Torres. he might arguably be worth more then Castillo anyway and they probably want Torres +.
Castillo has almost double the trade value of Torres, and the Baseball Trade Values simulator agrees. Castillo is literally worth Torres+Dominguez
Lmao yea this is hilarious… Guy pitches once every 5th day. GTFOH!
A quality starting pitcher will usually face more batters during the season than the number of plate appearances by your starting SS.
But top rotation SPs are nearly impossible to get. Many teams don’t even have a good #2.
Marty, did you happen to watch Torres at all since he’s played in MLB? How about the playoffs last year? Because you speak as if you misunderstand how valuable a 24-year-old cost controlled SS is… and it’s not like he plays for the Padres, he plays in the biggest stage in MLB. Stop being incredulous to prove you dislike anyone who wears a Yankee uniform. We get it, you’re ignorant and shallow. Move on please.
Except, Torres is not a SS. At least he’s not a viable one in any org except NYY. Realistically he’s a slightly above avg overall 2B, who is probably a below avg defender even there.
You’re very wrong. He came up as a SS and you’re basing your opinion off of 2020 performance. Look again at what he has done there on his “bad season” and look at the defensive metrics of some SS. I’m fairly certain your objective outlook will change.
Right on
He’s been a bad defensive SS since day 1 in MLB. You’d know that, and also that Castillo has 3 years of control left (you said 2), if you had just a tiny bit of analytical ability.
Hey pug….you know Mr Analytical…….several very awful comments about something you obviously know very little about……he played 2nd base for the Yankee until last years 60 game season where many excellent ballplayers just didn’t have the types of years they probably should have had…..enough with your bull and while Castillo is certainly valuable, but your commenting like a 24 year old ROY finalist who has the offensive pop he has while playing league average defensively is garbage….maybe you should go check you analytics about that?
I’d cite defensive stats, but Yanks fans here haven’t graduated to advanced baseball metrics. Bottom line, Torres is not just below avg defensively. He’s just bad.
Players that make All Star teams usually suck so bad you wonder why they ever picked up a baseball.
Excellent sweeping (& completely inaccurate) generalization @jbryantbuncha#’s.
You should go ahead & cite those stats.
But…uh-oh…they do indeed show he’s below average as opposed to bad.
Let’s just be real. You’re “take” – as such – is founded on nothing more than attempting to insult Yankee fans. It’s cool. I like to go hunting & drive motorcycles. You’re erstwhile hobby is trolling Yankee fans.
If that fulfills you, well, full speed ahead.
But cut with the BS. I’m a member of Fangraphs & use Baseball Savant. My guess is you actually do neither.
But you do excel at lame,unfunded, wanna be insulting takes. Play to your strengths, I guess.
😉
JBryant: Yes after this season, he has two remaining. We can nitpick. But, he hasn’t even played SS since day 1 in MLB genius, so, there’s that. You epitomize typical Yankee jealousy.
Lol
“I’d post the stats but they prove me wrong so I’m just going to insult you.”
It’s actually kinda sad.
Ya know?
For the stat illiterate Yankees fans that insist Torres is just a below avg defender and not just plain bad…….he ranked 23 out of 24 at SS (1132 innings) from 2018 to 2020 with a NEGATIVE 10.7 UZR/150. Yeah that’s bad. And don’t claim the sample size is too small like some here tried to do. Oh, and he was just as bad as 2B. Does he have any viable defensive position? It’s debatable.
Educate yourself in stats.
fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&#…
Facts sting.
For those of YOU who can’t read, take out 2020 dummy. We keep saying that, yet you keep leaving it in. Plus you are using ONE defensive stat. I can do the same and call you illiterate. I’m fact, using OAA, Torres finished middle of the pack in ‘19. You can cherry pick 2020. Go ahead. He admittedly was out of shape. Doesn’t change his ability. Doesnt change that he isn’t a poor SS. Doesn’t change you cherry pick your year and metric.
Torres was LAST, 26 out of 26, among 2B from 2018 to 2020.
fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=2b&stats=fld&#…
Darn the facts that get in the way of a good rant!
Clipper, take out 2020 and he’s still 19 of 23 SS in AL from 2018 to 2019. Doesn’t matter what you take out, he’s still bad.
fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=ss&stats=fld&#…
Maybe he’s not as good as your biased eyes think he is? LOL
I might also add, since you’re hellbent on using 2020 stats that he finished ahead of Paul DeJung and Willy Adam’s defensively, and was in the same pack as Semien, Galvis, Swanson, Anderson, etc. If you’re convinced 2020 counts so much, you cannot ignore that tidbit. Quite an inconvenient fact for you. You can number them, but when they’re 1 point off, it doesn’t seem nearly as bad.
In FACT, his UZR was much better than COREY SEAGER in 2020. Soooo, yeah, we can do this all day.
YOU ARE USING ONE METRIC. THAT’S ONE. SO ACCORDING TO ONLY YOU IS THAT THE BEST ONE.
It’s like you keep telling me his OPS + is lowest. Who cares? That’s not the only thing there is. He can’t be 2b and SS both in 2018-2020 since ‘19-20 he played ss. You’re ignorant. Try more than one baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/outs_above_aver…
Speaking of illiterate, I never wrote he was good on defense at SS. I said he was average and had the ability to play SS. I said he’s not as poor on D as people who are constructing a narrative portray him to be like your cherry-picking self. You cannot skirt this issue by rebutting the argument using the same single measure and making a truth claim that it is the ultimate measure.
I post a series of links showing how bad he is and you compare him to Seager, another poor defender? LOL
We can use UZR/150 (most commonly referenced), OOZ, DRS, Def, any defensive metric you want to use and he rates near or at the bottom. Take out 2020, still at the bottom.
You can’t win with words when facts get in the way.
UZR defines -5 as “below average & -10 as “poor”. He’s tended more towards “poor” than I’d previously thought.
He’s not Andrelton Simmons. But few are.
You can rank him wherever/however you care to. He’s a 24 year old who’s been flipped back & forth across the bag. Always has done what his team asked.
Looking at those numbers (& I am inclined to toss out 2020, but I make that a general rule for *all* players) he’s been below average (or close to it anyway) for his very young career. Still, he’s pretty athletic & by all accounts works hard. The Cubs sure loved him. He’ll be fine at SS.
He put up 3.6 WAR in ’19. I expect the same or better. ZIPS, Steamer, & Depth Chart all think he’ll do *better*.
You good? I’m good.
You’re a good Yankee troll that was refreshing. You made me work for it. Swing by again anytime, serious.
He’s not average or anything close to average. The only thing I can suggest at this point is go to the fangraphs link I posted. They have a lot of different defensive metrics you can look at and sort by,.
Do yourself a favor and get educated.
Ducky, I’m not a Yankee troll. I’m just annoyed by disinformation that is not supported by facts.
Cheers.
That’s precisely what you’re doing, troll. I’ve been there and it reflects, as many have written, he’s not as bad when looking at advanced metrics as you’d make him out to be. You say he’s the worst in the league, I disagree. I can prove what I say by your stats and then using more than one, you cannot. And I need to read more? I think not. Revisit the paragraph and you’ll see yourself for the Yankee troll you are.
I used outs above average. Why do you keep ignoring that? And you wrote that he’s not a SS. I argue he can be. He put up better defensive stats (OOA) than DeJung? You skipped right over him though. You’re a victim of your own requests. Typical… one-sided conversationists. Get back on Twitter or FB and draw attention to yourself.
OOA he is 37 out of 39 among all MLB SS. Oh that’s right, you said 2020 shouldn’t count LOL,
Since 2018, OOA has him 6th from the bottom, and that’s the best mark he has among all defensive metric stats. I’ll repeat, UZR/150, Def, DRS, OOZ, all have him at or near the bottom too..
It’s universal that he’s bad at SS AND 2B. Does he have a position? Who knows and that’s precisely why the Reds wanted more than just him, and I don’t blame them one bit.
If he has to be moved to 1B in the future because he can’t defend anywhere else, he’d be average offensively there.
Sixth from the bottom – nice. You’re such a tool. You pick when you use numbers like (-1 OOA) and when you use a relative measure like “6th from the bottom”. Just go away troll.
I don’t want to deal with your Gleyber hate. You’re disingenuous. You don’t stay on point, you conflate 2018 when he was 2b with 2020 which was an aberration across all of MLB.
You’re everywhere but SS -2019 when he played there consistently, And you still have not invalidated that at SS he played in the middle of the pack. You cite 2020, 2b, 6th from the bottom, 27 of 29. You bounce all around. Go take your meds and go away. You’re annoying. You’re a troll. You’re awkwardly obsessed with proving your opinion and frankly, you’re weird. Look if it makes you feel better, it’s me, it’s not you. Go find a new team/player/person to troll and use everything except what that individual discusses to prove your point.
Good luck in Jr. High
“disinformation”?
Look. You’re skipping all over the place to make the rather dubious assertion that Gleyber is a first basemen in a shortstop’s uniform.
That’s completely unfounded & in the end quite laughable. No one ever has ever intimated something of that nature in regards to his career trajectory. Arbitrarily bouncing around his numbers proves nothing.
I’m wondering…are you now “annoyed” with yourself. You gave a virtuoso performance of cherry picking. Or does that not qualify as “disinformation”.
Uh?
Again, you’re a pretty good Yankee troll. B+ to A- level stuff. Catch you next time, trolly.
🙂
Stats are facts. You guys make claims. I just post facts.
Marty McGravy might arguably weigh more than Torres and Castillo combined. C’mon Marty can’t you find anything racist here to lecture us all about? I want to see you embarrass yourself again like yesterday!
I like Castillo for either Royce Lewis or Alex Kirilloff. Maybe throw in Castellanos.
So Castillo and Castellanos for Krilloff and Royce Lewis that sounds about a fair deal. The Twins can maybe make that happen and the Reds would have there shortstop and a young cost controlled outfielder. The Twins get a legit pitcher who could help them maybe win the division the White Sox are looking pretty good.
Does anyone here refrigerate peanut butter? Cause that’s insane, right?
You freeze it in an ice tray. Turn nuts into cubes.
Does anybody care about stupid posts like this? No! Give us another racism lecture about Puig! HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Cashman should’ve taken that deal. Castillo is exactly what the Yanks roster. They don’t need Torres who sucks defensively as a SS. Make that trade and then sign DiDi or Simmons to shore up the defense at SS. Those 2 moves would fill the most gaping holes on their roster.
Why all the harsh criticism over Torres? He’s only 24 hits lights out. They can keep working on making him better at defense that’s what coaches are for. They can’t count on Andujar and the year Sanchez had was historically terrible so let’s get rid of a productive young ss?
At some point Torres will be traded to some poor franchise that is paying an aging injury prone former superstar gobs of money. That’s why they’re holding onto him.
prime time in cincy? lol!
Why do some Yankee fans want to trade Torres so quickly? I get he isn’t the best defender at shortstop, but when he’s healthy, he’s a .275/.350/.500, 35 home run hitter.
He’s not a poor defender. 2020 does not provide an accurate portrayal of his ability at SS. Fans on most teams tend toward the newest, hottest player, while wanting to trade the one performing at less than desirable levels.
You see your boy Musgrove just went to the Padres?!
Torres has -12 DRS, -10.7 UZR and -2.8 range runs in 1128.1 innings at shortstop. I don’t see how that’s a good defender.
Also, I did and I am very happy with the return.
I didn’t say he was good. Just not poor like many are saying. I think he’s better than what they’re portraying and better than his 2020 performance reflects.
MLB1225: also, if we agree Outs Above Average is a reasonable metric(?) for standardization, he was still above DeJong last year and a few others and he was nearly dead smack in the middle of the pack of SS in 2019.
If you look at other prominent SS ratings last year I think you will see a significant departure from what’s considered acceptable for above average or elite defense, which is expected of them.
I suggest we see this year. If he underperforms, he will be traded and they will get Seager/Story next year. Up to him, I just think he had the potential. And we know he can hit.
He’s not a poor defender. 2020 does not provide an accurate portrayal of his ability at SS.
———————————————
How about 2019? Does that portray his ability at 2nd? Better yet, pick which year and/or position to support your position.
2B
2018 -16.7 UZR/150
2019 -11.7
SS
2018 -21.5
2019 -4.7
2020 -13.0
FWIW, I suggested that the RS trade JBJ for Glyber/Soler, back in 2015. But even then, I knew it was unlikely that he was ever going to be a SS.
@Joe Brady. Thanks for trying to be clever but I already did; you write my full comment in context. 2019, SS.
I said I do not believe he’s not as poor a defender as people say. You take numbers and put them up on a board as if that alone speaks to his ability. Well compare. That -4 puts him much better than a lot (nearly half).
So you prove my point by asking a question I already answered. In 2019, SS he proved he was league average at a position he has not played co sis gently in the majors. I think he can be at least that.
Thank you for taking the time to validate my point. AND, I hate to break it to you, but he’s not only a ss, but he’s an all star as well. You guys are incredibly relentless to prove a point that doesn’t exist.
It’s a combination of notable names being left on the SS market, and “what have you done for me lately?” if I had to guess. His season last year was pretty average offensively and he’s not an elite defender on any given year at SS. I agree though, it’s pretty quick to be ready to pack the guy’s bags. He’s one of the most valuable players they have.
Believe me…those aren’t Yankee fans looking to trade Torres….the usual know it alls who think they are armchair GM’s!
Ss is stacked next year in free agency and they just inked a starting 2nd baseman to 6 years. Torres seems very expendable especially if you want to upgrade defensively
Im12: Right on the money – 100% why I think they’re giving him his fair shot this year. They told him he was fat last year. Told him to come prepared this year. He doesn’t, he’s a good 2b trade chip and we have Story/DJL together again in ‘22.
I’m still haven’t given up hope on signing Lindor. The Mets will have eff up really badly for that to happen though.
Yanks should build a package around Andujar/Florian et.al.for Zac Gallen. The Dbacks need an athletic OFer.
Yankees aren’t gettin a damn thing unless they put Dominguez on the table.
How dumb ya gotta be to think ANYONE would want Andjuar?
How dumb are you to see racism everywhere? So WOKE! HAHAHAHAHA!
Nobody wants Andujar unless he’s the third or fourth piece in a package from the Yankees.
Sounds mysteriously like the criticism that Frazier got over his defensive issues year before last….supposedly nobody wanted him at any price….while Andujar probably won’t ever be Brooks Robinson at 3rd, he may very likely be able to hit more than a bit in the majors once he dusts the rust off his bat….time will tell, but there probably are lots of teams that would want him included in a trade and not just as a 4th guy!
Rocky he has to show it first he basically has no value at this point. That could change but at this point no.
It’s not because of the defensive issues, it’s because Andujar has played 33 of 222 games in the past two years. Even if his defense sucks, if he stayed healthy and hit anything like he did in 2018, yea he’d have a decent amount of value.
Unless he starts hitting like he has been in winter ball. He changed his swing.
Unless he starts hitting like he has been in winter ball.
=======================================================
He has a .733 OPS this winter.
Next!
Do you really think you are getting a pitcher that has been very good already in the big leagues and I mean really good controlled until 2026 around a Florial and Andujar package dude that is just funny who’s the other guys Dominguez, Schmidt, Florial and the throw in Andujar maybe you have a deal.
Florian?
I hope it was Torres and Dominguez, the Yankees are so overconfident in their prospects they deserve to be turned down in their absurdly lopsided trade offers.
Luis Castillo has the most trade value in MLB out of anyone possibly on the market. His team-friendly contract seals the deal.
Your absolute claims are absurd.
Marty-I looked it up. Castillo has a trade value of 115. Torres and Dominguez combined are 104. Are Yankees fans always delusional?
I’m certain, Casey, that GMs refer to your point system trade value calculator. Very nice work. This isn’t a video game, but the one who calls the other delusional bases his trade value off of a point system?! That’s laughable.
You’re embarrassing yourself now clipper. Quit while you’re already behind. That’s how the GMs are doing it.
You said Marty’s claim was absurd. Not according to mlb trade rumors point chart. The delusion comes into play when the Yanks fans think their prospects are untouchable. They do not have a single prospect in the top 50.
Wow you really looked it up…..did that book have pictures too?
100% agree…Castillo has more trade equity than the Yankees can return…let’s move on to another team, other than the Pads who can offer a genuinely fair return for his services..
You have no idea what the Yankees trade offers are! You can’t just make stuff up! Slow down Marty, don’t choke on your triple burger! What about asian racism? Teach us Marty!
It’s a fair ask by the Reds in all honesty, there’s zero urgency to trade Castillo and without helping with salary relief somehow the ask is going to be big. Also pretty easy to see why the talks didn’t progress, Torres was one of the Yankees best offensive players in 2019 and is still just 24 with team control. Even if he’s really 2nd baseman in a SS’s clothing, he’s the type of player you probably shouldn’t be trading away unless it’s a perfect scenario.
I’d ask for Torres too, and I’d also turn it down on the Yankees side. The Reds don’t have to trade Castillo, so ask for the moon.
I think Franklin Barreto could be appealing to the Reds. He’s a former top prospect, still young, very talented, cheap, and blocked by Iglesias in Anaheim (as he was by Semien in Oakland). The kid has never had a real shot and a rebuilding team would be perfect for him.
If the Angels could somehow put a package together that included Barreto, a couple top prospects, like Marsh and Adams, and one other player like Matt Thaiss or Patrick Sandoval, maybe the Reds would be interested. The Angels need a right fielder for 2021 so maybe taking on Castellanos’ contract could make a potential deal more enticing.
Are you being serious? Barreto has less trade value than a leftover Pumpkin from Halloween. The Angels aren’t trading both Marsh and Adams when they will have two openings in the outfield in 2022. I is all moot though because the Reds aren’t trading Castillo.
If I were the Angels I’d rather have Aquino…big upside.
Franklin Barreto
===========================
The dude has a 100/7 K/W.
head, lucchesi, bednar and others for freaking joe musgrove. hudson head has a good chance to be really good and joe musgrove doesn’t seem much better to me than lucchesi. NOT A FAN of this trade.
Castillo better than Gleybor
I played with them both
Buzzz buzzzz my buzzzer on my jersey going off hold on…
I think there are two main reasons why the Yankees would never trade Torres for Castillo.
First, New York is weak at infield depth. Re-signing LeMahieu was an absolute must to maintain quality, and the primary bench guy is freaking Tyler Wade. Torres doesn’t have the best glove by any means, but there’s no decent replacement should he be traded. Cincinnati can’t help because they literally have no one for SS.
Second, Torres has a lot of untapped potential. Hes a potential superstar in the making, as his 2019 season showed us. I expect a big bounceback season from him in 2021. That and he’s got more team control than Castillo does, which teams prize like gold nuggets nowadays.
Good summation.
I like seeing PSA showing out well on the board. I have nothing but good things to say about the vast majority of posters over there.
It was the staff & I that seemed to have irreconcilable differences, uh? 😉
Anywhooo.
Yanks simply don’t have the IF depth. Same thing was insurmountable when it came to Lindor/Carrasco. & I posted above that Gleybae is capable of a high finish in MVP voting. He’s really good!
What the hell happened between you and PSA staff? Admittedly, I only check their postings maybe once every few weeks.
Aww, man.
Two fold. First I was used to RAB. I never really adjusted to the staff being held to a differing code of conduct than the “regular posters”. I just couldn’t stop myself pointing it out.
We’d sorta worked through that?
But last spring everything was politics. Look. I’ve served tours. I own a business. I’m not some horrible, evil dude but I’m not necessarily all that “woke” or whatever.
A whole bunch of posters with differing opinions than the editor – who was apparently fired for doing this stuff – were banned. The excuse given me was “ruffling feathers” which is rather vague if you ask me.
Pretty much it.
If it was simply Gleyber for Castillo, Cashman would have to be insane to not make the deal.
As a RS fan, I look forward to Gleyber playing SS for the NYY. Maybe he shows up in better shape this year, but he was -9 DRS last year, in 320 innings.. And including 2019, he is -22 DRS in ~1,520 innings.
OTOH, Adding Castillo to Cole will disappoint me greatly.
So if Schmidt, Andujar, Tauchman, Abreu, Luis Gil and Thairo Estrada isn’t enough for Luis Castillo then he’s not coming to New York basically.
So one legit prospect Schmidt and a bunch of Yankee trash for Castillo no he’s not coming to New York for that not even close you Yankee fans make me laugh, not all of you some are realistic. It’s not going to happen. I happen to believe that Castillo could put New York in a much better position to go to the World Series but he isn’t coming for your trash. I get that you don’t want to trade Gleybar so it’s not happening. You might be able to get Cinci to bite with Dominguez, Schmidt or Frazier and Garcia. Maybe you need to downshift and go after Marquez or Gallen especially if Colorado or Arizona want to rebuild. It’s probably going to cost Dominguez and at least Schmidt and maybe Florial for those guys too.
Wonder what else needs to be added to Gavin Lux to get the Reds’ attention for Castillo. He’s the definition of long term short stop answer
Lux goose and Ruiz prob get it done
Why would the Reds take Lux, Goose, and Ruiz, when they could have Andujar & Frazier from the NYY?
Castillo is worth way more then the 5 prospects the Pirates got for Joe Musgrove. Even Jon Heyman said Castillo is worth an enormous return of players in any trade.
If reds want Torres – they could have had him 5 years ago. In stead they pulled some PR move and GAVE away the best closer in baseball at that point in chapman ! Way to get nothing in return for your best asset ! Then yanks rolled chapman into Torres and resigned chapman a month later.
Now reds, who lost their best player by far in Bauer, another solid starter in disco and their best 2 bullpen arms- yet now want to trade their 2nd beat pitcher for a short stop. They’ll go from one of best pitching staffs in baseball to one of worst staffs! And of course the owner wants it!?
Reds the worst ran franchise in baseball. Krall and the owners have no clue how to win and bell the manager is an idiot ! And that’s why I’ll never root for reds again !
Yes, the Reds and Cubs would have made that trade. LOL you don’t know baseball then. The Reds were looking to avoid a PR nightmare, and were in a hurry to get Chapman out of town. A mistake baseball wise, but obviously that wasn’t their concern.
Watched Didi all of last year. He was the Phillies most consistent player with the bat and the glove. Reds would do well to sign Didi. But the supposed asking price is four years at $17 million per. Dunno, Didi is surely worth that cheese, but would the Reds spend the money? Doubtful IMHO. Simmons would cost less and be the superior glove at SS. The bat isn’t anything to get excited about, but it’s far from being a wet noodle.
bbc
The Reds went all in for one year. Now with Trevor on the move they will continue to dump . payroll. Trading Mr. blown Save away was a good move. Letting Disco Walk was trash.
At this point, they are better rebuilding. The first rebuild was poorly organized. It is a sunk cost that should be recognized. However, for whatever reason, it still leaves the Reds with an enormous amount of untapped value with Castillo, Gray, Suarez, and a couple of RPs.
I wouldn’t be shocked if they could net three top-40 prospects, three top-80 prospects, and a couple of fringy top-100 types. And the rest of their players are still young enough to be around when your new prospects are ready.
IMHO, this is the opportunity of a lifetime for Reds fans. Unfortunately, I think the Reds FO will sit on their hands, and be satisfied with a couple of .500 seasons.
Only way the Reds enter a rebuild now is to offload the Moose & Castellanos contracts by packaging them with high value players. And even then they still have Votto’s contract for 3 years. Most likely they’ll just sit on what they have and hope it’s enough to stay relevant against the rest of the fire sale teams in the NL Central.
It wouldn’t be a rebuild if the attached Moose and Castellanos. It would be a straight tank job. They might be good enough to play .500, and hope that no one else does. But that would be a huge waste of resources.
How is trying to trade for Torres a sign that they are rebuilding? They cut a little payroll with some expensive bullpen arms, and have looked to add another impact bat to the lineup. If they were rebuilding they’d trade Castillo and company to receive prospects, not MLB players that are stars.
Reds need to understand the Central is theirs to lose. Trade for Trevor Story. Garcia, Moustakas, Romano, and Akiyama for Story and Sam Hilliard. Move Senzel to second or sign a second baseman.
Hi all. Been reading up on all the dizzying trade speculations for Castillo to a few teams Yankees included. Just for example the Yankees not wanting to trade Gleybar. IMO pitching wins games. Good pitching beats good hitting 9 out of ten times. Yankees are already stacked with hitters. They can go out and buy (Didi) if they want to. IMO Castillo puts them back into the favorites to go to the WS. Heck I would want more than just Gleybar. Not being greedy here just placing more value over stud pitching over stud hitting. Yankees starting pitching has a couple of big if’s after Cole. This scenario seems to be what I am reading from other teams. We will give you a bunch of stuff but not our best. Well guess what Castillo is the Reds best and probably one of the top 5-10 starters in the league and signed for years to come at bargain prices.. You want someone like him you need to overpay especially if it puts you into the conversation as world series favorite. Reds would be better off signing a good free agent SS for a year or two and bringing up Garcia especially since NL central is up for grabs.
Just for example the Yankees not wanting to trade Gleybar.
=========================================================
My guess is that, either nothing is going on, or Cashman is posturing about not giving up Torres.
Another problem with the NYY is that, if they want to remain under the payroll cap, they cannot take on either Castellanos of Moose’s full salary, and other team can.
McKenzie Gore and Ryan Weathers would have been the start of any negotiations with the Padres before they added to their pitching.