Last March, the Angels dismissed visiting clubhouse manager Brian “Bubba” Harkins amidst allegations he’d been providing opposing teams’ pitchers foreign substances to aid their grip on the baseball. Harkins responded by filing a defamation action against both the organization and Major League Baseball. The Angels and MLB filed a motion to dismiss the lawsuit last November.
Harkins’ opposition to the defendants’ motion for dismissal was filed in Orange County Superior Court yesterday and obtained by Mike DiGiovanna of the Los Angeles Times. Therein, Harkins alleges widespread use of a rosin and pine tar concoction by MLB pitchers to alter the feel of the ball. Harkins’ assertions involve players from the Angels and opposing teams alike, spanning across the past two decades. In his court filing, Harkins names such players as Troy Percvial and Brendan Donnelly, who last played for the Angels in 2004 and 2006, respectively, as alleged users of the rosin/pine tar mix. Additionally, Harkins includes several recent or current Angel pitchers among those he claims have altered the ball.
Harkins further alleges that MLB has evidence of various high-profile pitchers from other teams using foreign substances to affect the baseball. DiGiovanna relays a text allegedly sent by Yankees starter Gerrit Cole (then with the Astros) to Harkins in January 2019 stating “Hey Bubba, it’s Gerrit Cole, I was wondering if you could help me out with this sticky situation. We don’t see you until May, but we have some road games in April that are in cold weather places. The stuff I had last year seizes up when it gets cold.”
It’s worth noting that none of these specific allegations have been substantiated. To this point, these allegations (more of which can be found in DiGiovanna’s full piece) are limited to Harkins’ pre-trial court filings. The case is set for a January 21 hearing on the defendants’ dismissal motion. If the case were to proceed to trial, Harkins’ attorney will seek at least $4MM in damages, notes DiGiovanna.
More generally, MLB pitchers’ supposed usage of ball-altering foreign substances has become a notable issue throughout the sport in recent months. Last February, then-MLB senior vice president Chris Young sent a memo to teams prohibiting club personnel “from providing, applying, creating, concealing or otherwise facilitating the use of foreign substances by players on the field” (relayed by Ben Lindbergh of the Ringer in July). Nevertheless, Lindbergh spoke with several players who estimated that at least 70% of pitchers were using some form of illegal substance. In November, Eno Sarris of the Athletic spoke with nearly twenty MLB players and coaches about ball-doctoring, and the “median answer was more than three-quarters of the league (uses illicit foreign substances).”
Lindbergh and Sarris note the correlation between the usage of a grip-altering foreign substance and higher spin rates for pitchers. (Both pieces are worth a full read for those interested). This figures to remain a topic of discussion for Major League Baseball, whether or not Harkins’ specific allegations are sufficient to warrant the continuation of his lawsuit.
Better late than never
Anyone remember the time the ball was so sticky it stuck to yadi Molinas chest protector and he couldn’t find it? Lol
Answer: Whitey Ford, Don Sutton, Gaylord Perry
Question: Three modern day Hall of Fame pitchers who made a career out of applying foreign substances.
Let’s not forget tools. Joe Neikro may have well worn a tool belt when he was on the mound.
padam, I was listening to the game where he threw away the nail file. It was was of the funniest play by play calls I’ve ever heard. I laughed my butt off.
@padam “He might as well have worn a tool belt.” I know that wasn’t exactly like you said but damn funny and a credit to you sir. =))
I think it looked worse than it should’ve and might have actually been an accident. He threw away an Emory board, he was a knuckleball pitcher so of course he’d have an Emory board. Knucklers hold the ball with this fingernails, not knuckles; maintaining the fingernails is crucial to a knuckleball pitcher.
Your list is very very very light.
Bauer claimed that about 70% of pitchers apply some sort of substance:
“It needs to be talked about more because it affects every single pitch,” Bauer said on a pre-taped episode of HBO’s “Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel.” He claimed, at least for pitchers, doctoring baseballs creates “a bigger advantage than steroids ever were.”
Trevor Bauer is a lot of things to a lot of people, but I dont think anyone believes him to be a liar.
Who knows? Maybe Bauer used a substance in 2020 so he could later point to his success and say he did it to prove a point. I’m otherwise okay with the use of substances, be it Don Sutton using sandpaper to doctor baseballs or Graig Nettles loading up his bat with superballs. The comic result of the latter adds to the lore of the game. I’m looking forward day when a pitch doesn’t arrive at the plate because it gets stuck in a pitcher’s hand.
Btw, I’m still ticked that the Dodgers didn’t sign Jethro Bodine because he loaded the baseball with possum fat. He and Elly May would have been great additions to the bullpen.
O I think he definitely did. Someone made a video where they took his spin rates and compared them. He has openly stated baseball has a problem with it. He even pitched an inning in 2019 using a substance to prove it increases spin rate. For that one inning all of his pitches spin rate jumped by a decent amount, very noticeable. He’s been critical of others in the past (his beef with the astros before the trash cans) that use something to alter spin rates and I’d bet he did something this past season because 1. It was a shortened season and perfect time to experiment this and he’s been very vocal about it but mlb isn’t doing anything so he’s got to prove a point to them. 2. The man is trying to get paid and understands better numbers equals more money.
And he used the concoction this year. His spin rates proved it. He toyed with it over the last few years to show the advantage and he’s gonna cash in on his stellar year….also one of the reasons he hated Cole.
Is Trevor Bauer a liar? I don’t know. He has recently had some accusations leveled against him, not limited to the following link:
youtu.be/-8zgvK1UAH4
Decide for yourselves how valid this youtuber is. I’m reserving judgement but I’m not under any impression that Bauer is some saint either.
Technically he’s not in the white house until the 20th. But duly noted.
Rent free 24/7
Bauer is a pitcher that has benefited greatly from his use of foreign substances to enhance spin rates. He is a back of the rotation starter without them.
Read the articles mentioned in this post. Bauer is only an effective pitcher when using foreign substances to increase his spin rate. Bauer himself went into great detail about the substances he has tested at Driveline baseball.
theringer.com/mlb/2020/7/10/21175567/banned-substa…
Excellent. Let Bauer continue with it. Game is way better with pitchers performing like he did in 2020 than watching the 8-hole hitter hit another 400+ foot bomb and pimping it in the month of May.
He was clearly talking about the fool there presently
No game is made better by players breaking the rules to gain an unfair advantage. If Bauer cannot pitch at that level without cheating then he doesn’t belong. Let someone else get those millions.
Hitters already have an unfair advantage. Players before 1994 would have LOVED wearing arm padding and crowding the place without recourse. And they get their millions while the game is not made better, as per your words.
Well we disagree. The Game is better if Mike Trout plays instead of misses time with a broken elbow.
How many broken elbows have occurred in baseball history? How many careers have ended on a hit by pitch on the arm?
Exactly. Easy on the doom and gloom.
In 1972 the Angels had ten pitches who pitched in over ten games. Twenty four teams, that’s about 240 pitchers.
In 2019 it was 22 pitchers. Times 30. That’s 660 pitchers.
Velocity goes up, quality goes down. And are we talking about a career or time missed?
Protecting hitters is a good thing. It’s hard to believe that is controversial.
Training today is better than 1972. Pitchers are bigger and stronger. Yet not durable. Protecting pitchers is something they continue to try, and fail.
Your argument is terrible. 22 pitchers hit 10 games because they were hurt. Why? Because hitters are afforded the liberty to stand where they want, swing the way they want, cover their body the way they want while being protected by umpires who’ll warn any team regardless of intent.
Protecting hitters hurt pitchers. But I suppose you enjoy watching guys sit for a year recovering from injury.
Mike Trout got drilled three times in a Texas series, the manager said they have to learn how to pitch inside.
You are free to have your opinion, but the game is better when players are not on the DL because pitchers don’t know how to pitch inside.
BruinBluw: That’s it, cut the lying sob with blood on his hands another break, huh. Thank God the orange cretin will be gone in 13 days. Your ignorant “joke” and intellect is duly noted too.
Indeed, Joe Carters walkoff
Or batters don’t make much effort to get out of the way.
so are you one of those that crucified houston but are okay with pitchers doctoring the ball? a lot of people are hypocritical with cheating
Bad take because Mr. Orange had a track record of lying whereas Bauer does not and most of his comments on various topics have been true.
Have you ever tried to get out of the way of 95 when you are looking curveball on the outter half? Easier said than done!
I get Tipsy’s point, but he actually didn’t ask a question. But as long as we’re here, are you sure the question isn’t what baby names are no longer used in the year 2021?
I stand corrected. The question should have been::
Who are three men that broke into the United States Capitol whilst wearing horns on their head?
Phil Niekro
With a pandemic going on, rosin and pine tar beats spit.
With pitchers throwing 100+ mph I would want them to have a good grip.
Eno talking about his article on Talkin’ Baseball was such an eye opener
Agreed! Great interview.
Any news about when he might produce another U2 album with Daniel?
In other news… the sky is blue and water is wet.
Yeah, everyone has been using stuff for years… and it is obviously accepted. I mean, we all saw Gerrit Cole’s sticky hands on his cap this last year. Everyone is using that stuff. No story here, except Bubba’s lawsuit.
Michael Pineda. New York Yankees. 2014.
Was just talking about this. When this happened the response from the league, players (old and new), and announcers was – “conceal it better”
Trevor Bauer last season
Yep
J. C. Hahne: Everyone uses it. Someone had to start it 1st and then be willing to spread the usage around. Oh, but let’s brush it under the rug. It’s no big deal. But let’s criticize the Astros until we’re blue in the face. Let’s keep some of the BEST players of all time out of the HOF because they were doing what supposedly a high % of players were doing at the time. Man, the hypocrisy is ridiculous.
Pitchers have been using it for decades. This isn’t something new. It’s pretty much accepted and that’s why this isn’t news. I’m not blaming the Astros. Not sure where you got that? Or perhaps you are just mentioning in general. In any case, now that Bubba is out of baseball maybe he should patent his concoction and market it. “Bubba’s Sticky Stuff.”
Decades? We’re on our 3rd century if loading up the ball. Lol…I used to even chalk my arm…harder to see a white ball coming out of a white arm. Gamesmanship.
The way I interpret this is that Bubba was completely fine with making a concoction for players. Now that he’s been fired he’s gonna be a rat for his own gain.
I don’t condone the use of foreign substances on the ball but it’s a pretty weak thing to do. Selling people out that trusted you cuz you got fired to help you cash in on a lawsuit.
Is it surprising that astros lead the league in spin rate the last 6 years? Bauer talked about it on his podcast, if they were willing to use cans would it be surprising to see they also all use pine tar? Cheaters cheat, how do cole, verlander, Morton go there and have career revivals with astros, fishy….
wouldnt you believe a guy with that same name also saw his spin rate go up dramatically last year…
Not surprising, probably figured out what compound they use and did the same. I’m just interested that the substance must be undetectable visually. Pine tar is brown and obvious when it’s being used. Just make pine tar legal, they allow hitters to use it for their bats and with juiced balls they should give pitchers extra spin only fair right?
Just give each team a set amount of pine tar for their pitchers per game, and once it is gone it is gone. At least it adds some strategy to their cheering then haha
While I agree – the Astros cheated, this is systemic not specific to them.
True but if they use a better compound then the rest of the league that also gives them an unfair advantage
As was using technology to steal signs. Haha
So invent a better mouse trap, most pitchers have been throwing sense little league they should have seen it all by the time they hit the big league. The Astro’s have had a lost of pitchers in the last 4 years that have come and gone many were not successful, if they had such a great thing in cheating why didn’t all the pitchers be 20 game winners?
Didn’t Morton have his best season after Houston?
He did very well at Tampa Bay, now on to ATL. Most teams gave up on him 4 years ago.
So now Astros invented cheating too. You are giving them to much credit. This is still cheating and every team has been doing it forever. This was invented by all players after the very first ballgame was played. So get off your high horse and realize players are alway trying to be better at any cost. Ask many players in the hall of fame.
These users have selective memory. Cheating was invented in 2017.
Wrong, cheating started with the second game ever played, everyone doing everything they can to get a edge over the other team.
Of course they used pine tar…with about 60% of the rest of the league…which is to the point of almost providing no distinct advantage over the competition at that point. They keep lowering the seems in the ball.
Tommy LaSorda died. RIP
Seriously? I haven’t seen that…RIP to a legend
Yes. RIP, a true baseball icon.
RIP
Clearly none of this has helped the Angels pitching staff…
Maybe it has.
in that case…yikes
I had the same thought. Just think how bad they would have been had they not had been using Bubba’z best 🙂
Not helping they haven’t had a winning season in years.
Since he was a clubhouse guy in the visiting clubhouse I am guessing you are right.
Just like the Astros didn’t help many of their players Batting average of .244 on trash can hits.
Is .244 the number for the whole season or is that the number for at home?
At home
They didn’t have surveillance equipment set up on the road.
Allow pitchers to have a better grip on the baseball. Problem solved.
If hitters are afforded an incredible amount of leeway, pitchers should be allowed equal treatment. Baseballs continue to fly out of parks and pitchers continue to go down to injury.
I agree with that to some extent, but they have rosin on the mound, that is perfectly legal. Something like pine tar is a bridge too far.
If pitchers need something better, put it next to the mound. Get both the Players Association to agree with it.
No one wants pitchers not being able to grip the baseball.
Smartest solution I’ve heard yet. Pick what to make legal, make sure it minimizes the temptation to go with other stuff, and make it universal. Anyone still cheating needs to be penalized harsher than now (10 days is a joke).
I really like this idea. Right now it is a poorly kept secret and various teams and players are using various substances.
Come up with one agreed upon substance to level the playing field.
Let the pitchers use pine tar. Hitters use it.
Batters don’t use pine tar on the hitting surface, it’s illegal. If pitchers can use pine tar and not get it on the ball, great. They can’t.
Have you ever used pine tar? Since i didn’t play minor league ball, the last time I used a wooden bat was high school. Most people have never played with a wood bat. So they have no idea what it’s like.
I’m sure they can figure out a substance where the transfer is minimal. That isn’t pine tar.
Yes I used pine tar. Batters use pine tar for the grip, like a pitcher would improve their grip.
I doubt you know what it’s like either. Otherwise you wouldn’t have dropped this silly comment.
Then you have played minor league ball or are in your 60s. Most people are not. Why would anyone use a wood bat in the 70s?
It’s sticky, it smells sweet, it’s fantastic, and it’s also easily transferable. So what’s going to happen if you put a pine tar rag near the mound? You are going to have an altered baseball because pine tar is going to get on the baseball.
Your comment is silly.
There has to be a better substance than pine tar that allows the pitcher to get a better without the transfer to the ball.
you make it seem like pitchers put globs of tar on the ball lol no you have a little on your fingertips so you have better grip on the seams….I mean you don’t really need a rag of pine tar on the mound, just do what players have currently been doing, keep it in the dugout, apply some under the bill or a small glob in your glove palm or be more blatant like Pineda a few years ago, btw there are other substances besides tar that can be used
Greenman, think about this for a second. If it openly available to them, it will be abused.
You have to come up with a substance, that works, but is difficult to abuse, and the transfer to the ball is minimal. That isn’t pine tar.
Since they are sneaking pine tar, the amount they are using is probably minimal. If you make it legal, pitchers will push the envelope.
Pitchers being able to grip a baseball better is a good thing. I think most of us agree on that.
Ok so you hate pine tar or something? Everyone already abuses it so make it legal and it won’t be abused? Or if they do make it legal is that still bad to abuse something that’s legaI? I was just saying your response earlier makes it seem like pitchers put on globs before every pitch. They literally throw out every ball after every put out, foul, dirt ball for a new ball. I simply stated they use it on your fingertips. Specifically to have better grip on the seams. I said there’s also other substances pitchers use besides just pine tar. Sunscreen, gum, mud, spit that can all be used to get better grip. And I agree that pitchers having better grip is a good thing. I just don’t get your reasoning for it being abused I guess. I don’t intend my response to come off as snarky but I can understand if it does but I don’t remember seeing an infielder spike a throw because the ball was covered in tar. Most egregious thing that I can remember of a ball having too much was when the ball got stuck to yadiers chest protector. But again I agree better grip is good for the pitchers but having a little tar or whatever isn’t going to alter the ball to the extent your making it seem. It’s been done and happening for a long time
I’ve asked this before, have you ever used pine tar?
If MLB can’t come up with a substance that allows for the same grip without the transfer, then there are a lot of stupid people in baseball.
It’s like using a wrench to hammer in a nail. It’s absolutely the wrong tool for the job..
It’s long lasting, it has that going for it.
@WereAllJustGuestsHere
Hitters use it to grip their bat. Pitchers use it to make pitches more disgusting. I say no. There’s a reason that baseballs have tighter seams than say a High School baseball, and that reason is to make sure pitchers can only be so disgusting. If they were to allow pitchers to use pine tar, that defeats the purpose. If they were going to do anything outrageous, they should make the seams stand out a hair more.
Ptichers being able to grip the baseball is a good thing. No one wants a pitch slipping out of a pitchers hand.
I’m saying having that substance as sticky as pine tar is a bad thing.
@Halo11Fan
I’m not saying I don’t want pitchers to be able to grip the ball. I’m saying that when they have pine tar or something sticky like that it becomes a bad thing. If I were to hand Gerrit Cole a High School ball and tell him to throw his curveball, a hitter wouldn’t be able to handle it. It would be so much more disgusting than it already is.
Ok but where are you coming up with this idea that a little tar on fingertips alters the ball so badly that it’s clearly an advantage to the pitcher. Is there actual data that backs that? And yes I’ve used pine tar? Now I’m curious if you have. You don’t smear a lot on the ball. You only need a tiny bit on your fingers for better grip on the seams, unless the dude plans on throwing a ton of changeups. again your responses to me imply that the pitchers are smearing it all over, to the point it alters the ball so bad that when this smeared ball is put in play, it’s so hard for position players to make an out. you surprised there’s a lot of stupid people in baseball? I mean look no further than the commissioner. So I’ve mentioned other substances what would you be ok with? Like I said before make it legal, and have a guideline for it just like batters have for their bats, you can use it for grip but not for the barrel, pitchers should get some sort of limit like that.
I use pine tar everyday…………… its my favorite Dr. Squatch soap flavor
I agree with you. I haven’t used pine tar since 1972. Unless you are playing professional baseball and gripping a wood bat, I can’t think of a use for pine tar. I switched to an aluminum bat as soon as I could. They are better for hitting.
I don’t know why people are offended when I ask them if they used pine tar. Would they be offended if I asked them if they owned a black and white TV set?
Pine Tar is absolutely the wrong tool for the job. It’s a great tool for gripping a wooden bat, and it smells great.
The smother the baseball, the less it breaks. There is data to back that up.
Foreign substances on a baseball is a bad thing. Can’t we all agree on that? Making a sticky substance legal will lead to more substance on a baseball.
I didn’t think that was a controversial position.
I have used pine tar. I use it to help grip my bat and it can have a huge affect. I’m not saying smear it on(which would obviously cause a huge advantage for the pitcher), I’m saying that maybe they put it on their hat or something like that, it can have quite an effect.
I don’t have a substance that I would say is okay to use. I also try to stay as natural as I can when I play, but to be fair I have only used/heard of pine tar. If they decide that a certain substance is ok and will regulate how much is used then I won’t object.
You finished with, “Like I said before make it legal, and have a guideline for it just like batters have for their bats, you can use it for grip but not for the barrel, pitchers should get some sort of limit like that.” I agree with you here.
I’m curious, why would you use a wooden bat? You don’t need pine tar to swing an aluminum bat, they all have grips.
I loved pine tar, but haven’t used it since 1972,
@Halo11Fan
“Foreign substances on a baseball is a bad thing. Can’t we all agree on that? Making a sticky substance legal will lead to more substance on a baseball.”
I agree with you here. If you let one substance slide, more will be used. That’s not the point I’m trying to make, although it is a very good point.
@Halo11Fan
I use a wooden bat because it can point out whether or not I am hitting the ball in the right spot. While I do use aluminum, there are days where you have to use pine tar to keep hold of the bat, like a rainy day. Another reason I use wood, is college coaches like to see that you can use wood as well. I would say I use wood more for training/practice, and aluminum for games.
Ironically, it’s a slippery slope.
OK.. That makes sense.
There is no reason to ever use a wooden bat in a game except maybe to bunt.
I’ll be honest, I have used wood bats in games. I tend to hit better, believe it or not, when I have a wood bat in my hands
More power to you. When bats moved from wood to aluminum in the early 70s, I jumped on that train and never looked back.
Ya the smoother it is less it breaks so pitchers use it to have better grip on the seems. We both agree that that’s a good thing yes? Like I said they aren’t drenching the balls and if it’s such a big advantage to the pitchers how come so many fringe players are hitting so many bombs in the recent years, teams are consistently setting new offensive records; Yanks, Twins recently hitting ungodly amounts of home runs over the course of the season. The issue isn’t a sticky substance it’s the actual ball itself. What I’m saying is this has been going on for a very long time. If this pine tar issue was so easily abusable how come we don’t see more than just a handful of pitchers winning 25-30 games a season or more than a handful of pitchers eclipse 300ks in a season, and yes let’s let big leaguers use metal bats so we can see casualties on the field. Btw tons of high schoolers use pine tar on their metal bats
And do you guys play in men’s leagues that allow metal bats or something?
I am working on building a career out of baseball if that answers your question the way you hoped
I don’t know of a non-professional league that doesn’t allow aluminum bats. I played baseball into my early thirties, fast pitch softball to my late 30, and softball into my late 40s.
All bats were metal.
There is no reason to use pine tar on a metal bat. They have grips. If you are using pine tar on a metal bat it’s just for show.
But, that’s really not the point. I have not seen a pine tar rag since 1972. My first year of high school. But if you are using pine tar then you know it’s sticky, it gets on everything you touch. Just look at their helmets.
There HAS TO BE a less sticky substance that a pitcher can use to get a better grip.
Actually pine tar is a good choice because of the dark color. Put it on your fingers for grip and it won’t be noticeable on the ball. Put extra on the ball to change the aerodynamics, which is what Niekro was doing with the nail file, and it will be visible to the umpire. A clear substance would be much easier to abuse. Lastly sticky doesn’t change the characteristics of the beyond what the pitcher does with the extra grip. Adding a substance directly to the ball like spit or Vaseline (an old favorite) disrupts the airflow on that part of the ball creating a low pressure pocket that dramatically increases the movement on the pitch. Scuffs do the same which is why balls are removed if the hit the dirt.
The Cape Cod League is for amateurs and it is a wooden bat only league. They get a ton of great talent down there (lots of MLB players played in the Cape pre-draft). I highly recommend catching a game if you are ever in Cape Cod during the summer.
Just roll out a salsa bar behind the mount with every option.
O really? That’s news to me. Then men’s league I’ve been playing in is all wood bats, maybe aluminum is allowed but literally no one uses so maybe that’s why I find it so odd or rare that you played or still play in a men’s league using metal bats. Yes obviously for softball metal is fine and normal. If metal was so good and safe I wonder why big leaguers don’t use em. But this whole thing is about mlb pitchers using it for better control, or in your eyes drastically altering the ball to where it affects the game. Idk where metal bats came into play and what that had to do with pitchers but ok? Did you have a horrible experience with pine tar or something lol like another poster said and what I’ve been saying you only use a small amount of your fingertips that’s not altering the ball to the point the pitcher has a clear upper hand. If that was true it would be a pitchers game and we wouldn’t see 8-9 hitters hittingn15-20 he’s a season. So if you feel pine tar alters the ball, but agree that pitchers need to use something that can’t be abused, but you also said any foreign substance on a baseball is a bad thing so it is a little confusing.
I find it strange you play in a wood bat league. Aluminum hit balls travel further and leave the bat faster. The bats have larger sweet spots and you don’t have to worry about breaking your bat or getting jammed as much. Trout might hit 100 HRs with an aluminum bat. Why would you give up that advantage?
I will wager you will not find a single player in the college world series or little league world series that uses a wood bat.
I love pine tar. One of the greatest smelling substances on the planet.
I wasn’t playing in 2011. That would have put me well into my 50s.
I can see why younger players would use a wood bat. People my age would not.
Before this change 2011, no one would use a wood bat.
2011 – BBCOR standard. After extensive laboratory testing of a large number wood, metal and composite bats, and based on the scientific evidence and arguments of several researchers including Dr. Alan Nathan and myself, the NCAA abandoned the BESR standard and replaced it with the BBCOR=0.50 standard. This new BBCOR standard effectively requires non-wood bats (metal and composite) to produce batted ball speeds no greater than wood.
In the late 1960’s they lowered the height of the pitching mound, they had a lot of pitchers with ERA in the ones and lower two’s and the best hitters were hitting 280 and low 290’s and ball game scores were 1 to nothing and 2 to one. There was a lot of people complaining the game was so boring and a lot of fan’s stopped going
Oh man. If the Angels staff was this terrible WHILE they were cheating, Mike Trout is doomed.
You may have not read the article. It’s the VISITING clubhouse attendant. He says he gave it to Cole. They claim is 70% use an illegal substance.
You must not have read the article.
“Additionally, Harkins includes several recent or current Angel pitchers among those he claims have altered the ball.”
You singled out the Angels… I didn’t.
“the Angels dismissed visiting clubhouse manager Brian “Bubba” Harkins amidst allegations he’d been providing opposing teams’ pitchers foreign substances to aid their grip on the baseball.”
Yeah, I did, because their pitching sucks and it’s funny. I don’t really get what point you’re making.
I also don’t care about pitchers using foreign substances on the ball. It’s happened since the beginning of the sport.
You singled out he Angels. And as far as their pitching staff sucking. Fangraphs disagrees.
And if you look at their top four starters last year, the data disagrees. Their bullpen stinks.
Fangraphs
“The Angels rotation is not in particularly bad shape, though it could use some spice at the top and some depth at the bottom. ”
But you know more than these people. I’m sure you are drawing in millions with your own expert website.
I’m Keith Law.
I knew there was a reason I ended my ESPN subscription.
Now I only subscribe to Fangraphs, Baseball Reference and MLB trade rumors.
The Angels Starters who are going to pitch for them next year are not great, but they are not god awful either.
I work for the Athletic now. Subscribe today for a free 7-day trial, and fall in love with the sports page again.
Baseballpun don’t worry about this clown HaloFan. This guy gets all upset anytime anyone takes a shot at his horrible Angels. Next he will tell you that the Angels will win the WS this year and their pitching will be the best in baseball.
Clown? I like people actually supplying data. And most people can’t.
I agree with fangraphs, you don’t. So why don’t you explain why?
Bundy, Heaney, Barria and Canning did pretty well last year. Heaney got ripped by the Dodgers his last start of the year or his ERA would have been 4.02, That was his worst game of the year.
Heaney will be ripped by the AL East instead.
Keith Law, one of the worst in the business. Work with the Blue Jays is evidence of that.
Maybe.
Thank goodness he doesn’t have to face them too often. In his three starts against the Jays he was awful on the road and 1-1 lifetime.
I agree, it’s been done for years. It’s just maddening about the hypocrisy.
Bundy is on the list big guy.
Here is the list according to ESPN…..
During the interview, Harkins claims, he identified Cole, Justin Verlander, Edwin Jackson, Max Scherzer, Felix Hernandez, Corey Kluber, Joba Chamberlain, Adam Wainwright and Tyler Chatwood among the pitchers who previously asked for his specific blend of pine tar and rosin,
Harkins also named several current and former Angels — Percival, Brendan Donnelly, Kevin Jepsen, Cam Bedrosian, Keynan Middleton, Yusmeiro Petit, Luke Bard, Matt Andriese, Dylan Peters, Jose Suarez, Kaleb Cowart and Dylan Bundy — who used the blend.
Seventy percent of pitchers in baseball are on the list.
I would imagine that is a lot less than 70% of pitchers in baseball.
Lindbergh spoke with several players who estimated that at least 70% of pitchers were using some form of illegal substance
I don’t know the number, I doubt anyone does.
the other third is covered by…Andruw Jones.
Look at all those not Angel pitchers on that list! How many of those pitchers are not Bundy to? All of them but one, right?
Hallo11 is right. The rotation wasn’t even close to the problem the bullpen was. The rotation looked like something that could be built on. The bullpen was a disaster though. Just a glancing survey of the stats would show everyone that.
Dodger jr, your post is nice and emotive without a single statement of thought. Refute the numbers if you want to make a case because that’s actually what most of the commenters around here look for. Nobody can make you leave but please don’t be the one to bring down the education level in the room.
Still the best baseball commercial that I’ve ever seen. Sad it’s not readily available on YouTube for all the young kids to see. Anyhow, talking to myself again, so have a great day!
Recent angels then goes to mention Troy percival and Donnelly who haven’t pitched for angels in 15 years.
When you have 3 players that make up 70% of a teams total salary and none of them are pitchers you lose a lot of 7-5 and 10-6 games. The Angels haven’t invested in good pitching in years
Short season, 162 games it would be all down hill, starters would all have a 4 or 5 era.
MLB should just move on and allow specific substances. Safer for batters if pitchers have better grip. By allowing certain ones, easier to make use of others a violation since had legal options.
Batters are allowed to use a regulated amount of pine tar on their bats. Might as well let pitchers use a regulated amount too.
Spin rate is a big deal. There has to be a middle ground.
This. And while velocity seems fairly limited by human physiology, spin rate isn’t (or at least we probably aren’t near the limits yet). There’s already a crisis in MLB related to the lack of balls in play. Spin rate is one of the primary culprits. And more importantly, you never want the relative success of different players to be dependent on who has the better substance supplier. Then it stops being a sport altogether.
Well said
Having an owner that gets good starting pitching is a big deal as well. Instead Artie gets guys that are over the hill or are druggies and die.
What exactly is the middle ground though? Unless the umpire gets to check the ball every single time its thrown, then they’re not going to stop the use of things like pine tar. If they let pitchers use a regulated amount, then this wouldn’t be an issue.
… or are druggies and die.
And you call me a clown? Consider the source.
Plate approach and discipline play a bigger role than spin rate. Umps also do not stretch the outside anymore the way they did prior to the 2000’s.
The league does what it can to ensure hitters hit and get their numbers. This allows pitchers to sit a year recovering from TJ surgery.
Pretty insensitive comment there, Dodger Jr. He may well have been prescribed those pills and then got hooked on them. Have some compassion, man. It can happen to the best if people.
Potential advertisers, too. A win-win situation for the game.
Yeah this is not a big deal… who really gives a F
Probably every better having to face pitches that spin and move more than they did five years ago.
Hitters crowd the plate with body padding. Didn’t see that 25+ years ago. Like JaysJunkie said, not a big deal.
MLB might as well let pitchers use a regulated amount of pine tar. You can probably find hundreds of clips of a player touching the bill of their cap or a part of their belt or glove then rub the ball for a second.
Every game, every inning, if not every batter…
Every time they get a new ball they probably use a drop of pine tar. As long as the ball isn’t like slathered in the stuff, I don’t see why they can’t allow pitchers to use a little bit when they’re pitching.
It’s even going on in Minor-League ball. This is a video of a Rangers prospect that I actually like a lot: youtube.com/watch?v=EkHKFDiahd8
He reaches for his belt so many times you’d think he was on his fourth plate at Thanksgiving dinner. (He touches his hat too) But this was just a random video I saw a little bit back on him. it’s very common, legalize it.
Just watched that. Almost every pitch he adjusts his belt buckle. This happens almost everywhere. They either have to heavily enforce that pitchers don’t use it or let pitchers use a regulated amount like batters are.
Exactly.
I thought this was well known?
Pine tar & rosin – never would’ve guessed.
Is this really news?
It’s news because it’s against the rules. If they want to change the rules, then do so. Until then, this is an issue.
It’s like a stop sign in California. It says to stop but nobody really does, and no one really cares.
MLBTR putting their spin on the story. I wonder if this increases the chance of TJ surgery? Or decreases it? Could be an interesting study. Maybe the baseballs need to be a little less slick. Pitchers have complained about it but MLB does nothing on the behalf of pitchers. Ever. So, if the LACK of grip increases the chance of TJ (think about slipping on the ice as an extreme case of grip loss), then MLB needs to look in the mirror. As usual.
Here’s an idea. Instead of fake balls where they get engineered to travel further, why not develop a better surface for the ball so the pitchers can actually grip them without needed any external substances? I know that’s crazy talk, doing something on behalf of the pitchers, but maybe it makes the game of baseball better. Less injuries to pitchers who are trying to throw 100 MPH because it’s all they have in their arsenal. More value in location and movement which are the real stalwarts of good pitching.
Cheating in baseball, this is my surprised face!
The major motion picture MAJOR LEAGUE from 1989 literally talks about this.
Snot on the ball? Harris’ different methods ?
Great comment.
Are the Blue Jays interested
He’s a Rat
It appears he was fired and publicly condemned for something that is commonplace. Seems fair that he can speak up to defend himself but I’m not sure about giving specific names.
Giving names gets attention. Think this article would be getting traction without them?
It’s news because it’s against the rules. If they want to change the rules, then do so. Until then, this is an issue.
He took the fall for the entire industry. I would be pissed and want pay back for that too.
I for one don’t consider this cheating. Batters can use grip on their bat why can’t pitchers use it on the ball? MLB needs to seriously look into allowing pitchers to use this.
Cheating is gaining an unfair advantage.
“Harkins amidst allegations he’d been providing opposing teams’ pitchers foreign substances to aid their grip on the baseball.”
This seems to be an open secret. If you are asking the visiting clubhouse attendant, it’s not something you are trying to hide. It seems like everyone has access to it.
This isn’t like steroids that is done in the dark, where you only have access to it if you want to give up ten years of your life by taking a dangerous drug.
Hitters wear pads to the plate, stand closer to the plate and barely flinch on breaking pitches. That’s an unfair advantage over pitchers, and 100+ years of history where hitters didn’t wear it. Nobody says a word about it.
Pitchers use a substance to help with gripping the baseball and we’re supposed to be outraged?
Im with Guests…..not to mention MLB put the Ball on STEROIDS itself!
The hypocrisy is rich here
Pitcher has to work his tail off to get a 4.05 era these days all the while everyones slamming him and calling him trash years end ; no wonder they got in on something
My first thought upon reading article – Good for them
De-juice the ball
Take the crazy level of padding away
Give the pitcher back the high strike at the letters that he deserves ….. and then I might sit in on your sermon
Increase the size of the baseball by a fraction of an inch. Soften the baseball. Prohibit the shift. And of course… robo umps
You’d have a better game. More contact, less home runs, more singles, more action.
Keep the shift.
Raise the mound back to 15 inches the way it was before 1969, push every OF fence as far back as possible in every current stadium, raise the height of OF fences if-possible. New standard should be 340 down the line and 420 in CF for new stadiums. For every foot under 340 will be added to CF. So if the lines are 310, CF is 450.
Take off the arm guards. Only thing hitters need is a shin guard and face shield if they choose. We’ll see more complete games, star pitchers stay healthy, a real run at 300 wins again, quicker baseball games and separate the have and have nots at the plate. Aces equal ratings. More people attend and watch games with the top arm on the mound, always and forever.
Agree with everything you 2 just wrote, especially Robo Umps
Give the letters strike back; launch angle gets thrown a huge wrench
Take the juice out the ball and lengthen the fences are both great as well-
This will put more speed atheletism in the game as well, more sbs more speedy OF’ers
Im not opposed to the shift as much as I am opposed to hitters that cant beat it these days- Do the changes you 2 fellas are talking about that could lead to a natural change where there would be no need to institute a rule
Also the No step out Rule for the box is a huge one – As a 15 yr old we had to acclimate to this on the fly for travel ball for field scheduling purposes in tournaments. Little odd to begin but you forgot about it by the end of the tourney – Would take off 30-40 mins, sorry Nomar
Id raise the mounds up a tad but not 1969 style !
Get the game down to sub 2.5 hrs with more action and get a salary floor should be the goals before the next CBT- Im not holding my breath
A lot of knowledgeable baseball fans disagree with me on the shift, but Ted Williams didn’t have two swings and had trouble going the other way, Rod Carew had trouble pulling the ball. So if they couldn’t do it against pitcher throwing much slower than than they do today, I don’t know how Trout can do it today.
As far as arm guards, I like it when batters don’t have bones broken. It’s why I’m for pitchers getting a better grip.
I’m also for less strikeouts, not more. With a raised mound, the contact plane is different and a batter is almost certain to have a lift in their swing.
And of course, since the arch is different, less contact.
Fair points on the shift – Installing a rule ss (or 2b) has to be at least even with the bag when the pitcher throws the ball wouldn’t upset me in the least
I think the guards have become excessive, a pitcher loses command of the inside part of the plate he becomes road kill 9 times outta 10
Cap – yes, I think certain natural changes would happen, like the no arm padding will force hitters off the plate and they will struggle on the breaking ball. More pitchers will rely on the slider and curve over the change up. And I believe you will see the SP average fastball gradually drop due to guys taking a little off not needing to rear back.
Agree with the batters box idea. Get ready to hit. And I agree with the letter high strike.
Big parks equal more triples. Exciting play in baseball we no longer see.
Another unpopular idea: allow contact on plays at second, third and home as long as the runner can reach the base. We have replay to hold runners accountable if they violate the rule, and fielders should be accountable for self-protection.
Agree on the contact at 2nd 3rd/home – Some of the best old Mlb footage you see is how hard they ran the bases
I dont think we can ever come back to truckin the catcher but I think theres room too allow a runner some more steam comin in if the catcher is in the way
Vince Coleman was one of the most exciting players you could ever watch. Today he might be subjected to a gimmick role if he came up thru some systems – He never had an OPS of 750 in 12 years
Better grip on the bat doesn’t improve performance. Some of the best hitters of all time didn’t even use batting gloves. It just keeps the bat in batters’ hands better so no one gets hurt.
Better grip means better bat control so I’d argue it does help performance. You could’ve said older players didn’t use pine tar for better grip in that era.
Angels should sue for not giving the better stuff to their recent pitching staff
No doubt MLB scapegoated this guy and put their heads right back in the sand. They need to grow a pair and finally clarify and enforce or simple change this rule.
“No doubt MLB scapegoated this guy ”
No doubt.
LA’s Turner uses tar on his uniform, so to get that he must tar up his entire bat. Brett should sue for his pine tar episode for only half way up the bat
The reason foreign substances are banned stems from the time Ray Chapman of the Cleveland Indians was killed by a wild pitch from Carl Mays of the New York Yankees in 1920. Mays used a spitball and all the owners decided that it was too dangerous for pitchers to use foreign substances and not have control on their pitches. And with some of these guys throwing 100+ mph its understandable.
In all fairness, MLB didn’t see batting helmets start to be worn until 1941.
Yea and even with helmets we have seen some horrific beanings. But whats scary is those defenseless pitchers that take a comebacker to the face like Bryce Flori did.
long live Alex Torres’s padded hat!
it was so dangerous that they allowed guys who used it to be grandfathered into the rule?
Generally anytime baseball makes any changes or decisions they let players to be grandfathered like Mariano Rivera being able to wear #42 after it was retired by baseball in 1997.
The rule had to be implemented because pitchers lost control of the ball. Pitchers that used Saliva on their fingertips had less control of the ball once it left their hands. Spit or Saliva allows the ball to leave the fingertips with less friction causing the ball to flutter like a 90 mph knuckle ball. Pine tar or other sticky substitute allows for more friction off the fingertips and more control. Pitchers are using this sticky substance to increase rotation on fastballs and breaking balls.
I’m sure they can come up with a substance that will avoid heavy transfer. If Pine Tar is made legal, you will not avoid that heavy transfer.
It has nothing to do with friction and grip. A spit ball changes the surface on one part of the ball so air flows over the ball differently. The air flowing over the spit has to travel farther so it goes faster creating low pressure pocket that moves the ball in that direction. That’s why they can’t control it. The shape of the substance causes different air flow and different pressure differentials.
Saying lots of pitchers used substances isn’t much of a defense to his breaking rules by providing the substances to them as a clubhouse attendant.
It seems like more of a threat that if he’s not paid he is going to expose more and more “cheating” in baseball, which MLB presumably does not want publically aired, especially so soon after the Astros scandal.
I think this is like amphetamines in 60s and 70s. It’s an open secret. No one seems to care.
They made amphetamines available to every person in the clubhouse… for both teams. It seems they are doing the same here.
They were doing that 7-8 years ago not just 60’s and 70’s
Yes, it’s a very typical defense in arbitrary firing cases and usually wins the day. I expect this guy to get a very hefty settlement.
This is a real sticky situation. These rumors certainly have (foreign) substance, I wonder how many players got their hands dirty? Perhaps those caught should be pine tarred and feathered.
ha!
Well done
this has been known and no one has cared. every other month someone is seen with pinetar hidden somehere but nothing happens. the league doesnt care and, to be honest, i don’t. bring back the spitball for all I care. (though maybe not this of all years)
I actually used to spitball when I played little league lol. I didn’t realize it was against the rules, so I did it blatantly. Never got caught.
Moral of the story: Legalize it on all levels lmao.
See also: wacky tobacky.
Gaylord Perry is in the Hall of Fame.
Made me think of of Tyler Skaggs; they must have a clubhouse guy for every kind of substance imaginable.
Everyone already knew about this.
MLB won’t do anything about it. It’s better for entertainment. They don’t care.
Enough said.
MLB is very worried about declining ratings, which they attribute to a decline of action in the sport (fewer and fewer balls in play every year). I think they’re quite serious about legislating foreign substances that increase spin rate out of the sport. But they probably won’t do anything dramatic until we’re through the pandemic.
Scoring and big homeruns don’t draw big ratings? You don’t say!
and to follow up, im largely a traditionalist, but as far as this goes it always seemed absurd. unless you actually damage the ball i think ita more craft then anything else and should be treated as such. id argue actually the spitball is better then pine tar in that its not “foreign” in the same manner.
MLB set the rules last year by not penalizing players in the Astros organization for cheating. Now what.
Or at least making the penalty for getting caught cheating so minor that it is worth it to cheat.
unless this was team orchestrated its not the same thing.
I’ve noticed that offenses are having a terrible time scoring runs. Maybe if we get pitchers to not use foreign substances, then we can finally get some runs scored. We are all tired of all these 1-0 games where the hitters get dominated over and over again. What do we have to do to get a couple of dingers?
Idk if batters are having a hard time scoring runs. ERA has went up across the board. In 2010, the league average ERA was 4.08 and in 2020 it was 4.45.
Copy! I was being sarcastic. Offenses are scoring at higher clips than the Steroid Era.
Oh lol, I did not read that last sentence or I probably woud have seen it was sarcasm.
It hasn’t helped them. ♂️
Actually it may have. They may have been absolutely putrid instead of just bad….
Throughout eons of history, men have struggled to get a grip on their balls.
Thanks. You just reminded me to take another look at Saturday Night Live’s old Schweddy Balls routine. Some things make you laugh regardless of what’s going on in the world. Cheech & Chong’s pee scene is another one.
Rosin Bags???? I’ve seen many hitters not wanting guys like Randy Johnson throwing baseballs at them that they don’t have a grip on.
with the general control issues across the game you have to wonder if rosin really helps at all.
Honestly I dont even care if this is true. Just let them use what they want…
This ‘new’ scandal only has national or international ramifications affecting some pitchers. I have inside knowledge of one on a cosmic scale that also implicates hitters along with the entire fraternity of MLB.
I know a guy who knew a guy who used to work at Area 51. He claimed that a number of pitchers have been using alien substances that were the result of reverse engineering from the UFO confiscated near Roswell, NM. He also suggested that many hitters have been corking their bats with substances undetectable to any of our human scanning devices including X-ray, CT and MRI equipment.
All this is only the tip of the galactic iceberg. The Commissioner, MLB and the MLBPA have also been complicit in covering up alien involvement since the late 1980’s with ‘juiced’ players and baseballs. HGH? It was AGH all along! It was also in their power to utilize alien anti-gravity technology to suppress HR’s in Colorado but they refused because it was in direct violation of their adopted chicks dig the long ball campaign.
Of course, not all alien technology in MLB needs to be scandalous or negative. It can also be implemented to improve our great game. I can’t wait to see which model of AI robo-umps baseball chooses going forward to replace our inferior human ones!
2 former Astros….SHOCKING!!
@DocBB
Grow up.
Every player/team in baseball uses some form of cheating, just the Astros got caught for doing a more severe form. I’ve seen junior high teams steal signs
They didn’t get caught, they told on themselves in return amnesty was granted
Out of 100 Astro pitchers in the last 4 years only 2, check the Yankees.
Ummm…what.
This is the worst kept secret in baseball. Lots of big name pitchers do it.
Trevor Bauer has been quoted as saying the only thing he’s found to improve spin rate is a foreign substance. If MLB is going to crack down on this Bauer’s value will take a big hit.
I’ve been under the impression that Trout takes foreign substances for years.
You don’t think he’s buying American?
Well, when the umps are watching Eddie Harris closely, he puts snot on the ball.
I don’t care. They can use whatever they want. Hell, if MLB doesn’t care about the juiced baseball then why should we care about this or hitters bats being hardened etc
sh-t while we’re at it let’s just give them all corked bats, bring back the trash cans, line them up for steroid injections at home plate in front of fans(when ever they are some) allow players to blatantly squirt or spray substances on their hands in front of everyone right before every pitch and call it baseball? At what point do people stop looking the other way?
This shouldn’t be a big deal to hardcore baseball fans. The problem is that it will discourage potential new fans from taking that leap of faith that we all took when we were kids. Internet chat sites and sports talk radio will hang onto the “controversy” for fun and profit. Instead of ignoring it,
MLB needs to come out with a statement explaining why this is okay. To say nothing will give the impression that they are hiding scandalous activity. Get a grip, folks. It’s okay if pitchers and batters use a substance to get a better grip.
Indeed, and well said-
Theres a whole new fresh set of eyes viewing this sport, and really, all they have seen has been vomit worthy.
MLB is playing from behind the 8 ball already and have a hack shooting the cue stick – You have to worry moving forward, it feels like your only hope of winning is having the NFL and NBA scratching on the 8 ball
Cap & Crunch. MLB does a terrible job marketing itself to newcomers. On national telecasts, announcers spend nine innings pontificating about what’s “wrong” with baseball and how to fix it. Those games attract fringe fans who haven’t yet decided to fully invest in the sport. And why should they? Telling people the sport they’re watching is defective is not a good way to win their allegiance. The NBA would never do something so stupid and grew its audience because of it.
This is really a non-story. Everyone knows pitchers use substances. Hitters have even said that they prefer it because the extra grip prevents them from getting hit by a pitch less often and decreases the chance of injury or even career threatening injury. This is just much ado about nothing.
Honestly allow players to take steroids allow them to use foreign substances. it would make the game a lot more exciting. If they want to use em let them us em
You do realize steroids will cause major health issues and shorten your life… right?
You want to make players take that in order to compete?
If it is a drug that you would give to your child playing high school sports, then I’m fine with it, but only an animal would give PEDs to their child.
It’s not a very thoughtful position.
Let the player decide is what I’m saying. Pretty sure there are very clean PED’s nowadays. This isn’t the 80’s and 90’s
@halofan You do realize high paid professional athletes aren’t buying steroids from some guy’s garage like it’s 1985 right? These guys are using the best available substances, from actual clinics, and given to them in specific cycles/doses by guys who know what they are doing. There’s soo many different PEDS for soo many different purposes, not every steroid is to make look like Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime. You are obviously not at all informed on this subject matter, so why comment as if you have experience?
There is a safe PED? Then fine, what a sane parent would give to their kid playing high-school baseball is OK by me.
Players should not be forced to risk their health in order to compete.
Really? Go ask Tyler Skaggs about that.
So fentanyl, oxycodone, and alcohol are PEDs? That’s an interesting take.
this is the equivalent of a parent getting arrested for supply booze to a high school party and their defense being that there is widespread drinking by high schoolers.
It does seem strange that Gerrit Cole would need to get this stuff from an opposing team’s clubhouse manager though. If it’s so widespread, you’d think he’d make it himself or have someone from his own organization help him out.
That’s what I was thinking. Why would you let opposing teams know you’re cheating
Maybe because baseball is turning out to be a game where you have to cheat to play? From PEDs, corked bats, scuffing and now this…why even bother watching?
Because most pitchers use something, so it’s not a huge secret
“What’s that s— on your chest”
“Crisco; Bardol; Vagisil. Any one of them will give you another two or three inches drop on your curveball. ‘Course if the umps are watching me real close I’ll just rub a little jalapeño juice up my nose, get it runnin’,and if i need to load up the ball…just wipe my nose”
“You put snot on the ball?”
“I haven’t got an arm like yours; i have to put anything on it i can find. Someday you will too”
Umpires are suppose to police the game. I’d wish they’d do a better job. How does an umpire not see that?
To me, doing something in the clubhouse vs doing something that is suppose to be monitored by the umpires is different.
On stuff like I get more upset with the umpires than the players.
This is the Pitchers reaction to the development of the ‘Juiced Ball’! The baseball has definitely changed over the years, most notably imo with much lower seams! Raised-seams is much easier to grip and spin, but these newer ‘juiced balls’ are closer to cue balls than dead-ball era baseballs, and without the raised-seam its no wonder hurlers are looking for something to get the grip/spin they want! Easy solution is to raise the seams, but that will create less HR’s and scoring, which we all know baseball does NOT want! This shouldn’t just get swept under the rug….but it probably will unfortunately!
It’s accepted because both teams do it. As long as it’s not obvious, umps look the other way. Nothing to see here. Would be really tough to enforce anyway. Plus without it you’d see more hit batters, more walks, and longer innings. Exactly what MLB doesn’t want with their obsession for speeding up the game.
Lost a lot of respect for Gerrit Cole after this news. He’s always been so cocky and now we know he’s not as good without banging a trash can or doctoring the ball.
Bill James really needs to invent a couple new sabermetrics and algorithms to take some value away from cheaters like this.
I gained respect for cole after this. His pun game is strong.
He got $36M/yr for 9 years. Seems like a wise decision on his part if he did indeed decide to do it.
Ok cool, nice to know. Let’s play the game.
So pitchers constantly cheat using foreign substances to grip and spin the ball better for decades and most don’t see much wrong with it and pass it off but hitters cheating you drag them forever
Love how Bauer proved that his own success is the result of cheating.
Pitchers have been doctoring baseballs since 1870. It was outlawed in 1920, though “grandfathered” in, meaning it was still legal for pitchers active prior to 1920 – so it was legally in use into the 1930s.
Rosin is legal, every mound has a rosin bag on it. So it appears the “big scandal” is that some pitchers are mixing it with pine tar for a better grip?
Wow, the Astros are even dirtier than I expected. Angels, Astros and every player he named need to be punished. Harshly.
You think only 2 teams cheated? Every team does this, wake up it’s been going one sense the second game ever played
Yep, they were tested by the baseball gods and immediately banished from the Diamond of Eden. The cheating hasn’t stopped since although rumor has it that Angel Mike Trout just might get a promotion and become the next messiah.
The Lord of Righteousness strikes again.
I’m rooting for Bubba on this one. I’d like to see the full degree to which this occurs come to light. The Commish used very strong language in decrying the overall ‘top-down’ culture that he saw in the investigations into the Astros/Red Sox scandals; this (and all other MLB rules violations and inconsistent treatments of employees involved) deserves no less attention, acknowledgment that it’s a problem, and corrective measures and punishments. Keep ratting out the hypocrisy Bubba.
I’ll say the same thing I said after the sign stealing scandal:
I. DO. NOT. CARE.
Baseball is a cheater’s sport. It was a cheater’s sport a hundred years ago and it’s almost certainly going to be a cheater’s sport a hundred years from now.
It’s not going to change unless the sport normalizes and institutionalizes career destroying punishments for the cheating players and organizations. Which they’re not going to do. Because neither the owners nor the players union have any interest, at least they don’t now and won’t as long as the money’s coming in.
So the cheating will continue. And I don’t care. Because while there are a lot of things in this sport that are hurting its entertainment value, cheating is absolutely not one of them.
And for those of you screaming shrilly about the integrity of the game. Please do shut up. The game never had any integrity. And you’re kidding yourself, and wasting my time, by saying that it did.
***”I’ll say the same thing I said after the sign stealing scandal:
I. DO. NOT. CARE.”***
You certainly could have fooled me. Unfortunately, you’re in the minority, and that’s why this is a story, because it provokes a significant enough reaction, gets clicks and reads, and gets people typing six paragraphs just to say “I DO NOT CARE”.
***”And you’re kidding yourself, and wasting my time, by saying that it did.***
People stating an opinion you don’t agree with is “wasting your time”, but your post is… what?
Can you imagine if he did care? We may have all been subjected to a post requiring publishing in volumes.
Pretty sure no one cares about whether you consider their comments a waste of time. Just curious though…since Sinclair Broadcast Group bought the Fox Sports regional networks, along with a company that’s developing real-time gambling during the games they’ll broadcast, in full cooperation with MLB, whose proprietary stats will be facilitated for such betting….do you think cheating will matter to the millions of fans who wager their money?
Probably not, since both pitchers are likely doing it.
I thought even the recreational outrage club would recognize just how wide spread this is if they actually watch games.
If you’re stupid enough to wager serious money on baseball I don’t care what matters to you. The sport’s been institutionalizing cheating for 150 years.
And if you care so much, stop watching the sport. The only way anything’s going to change is if enough fans boycott that it hurts the rating thereby hurting the TV deals thereby hitting the owners in the wallet. So stop watching and get your friends to stop watching and get their friends to stop watching and do something that’ll actually make a difference.
Because outrage doesn’t change anything. Ever.
As for me, I’m neither outraged nor surprised nor in any way angry. I’ve come to expect this from this sport. And, like I said, it doesn’t hurt the entertainment value one tiny little bit. So I’ll still be watching.
So can we now say that the Astros prefer sticky trash cans?
Pitchers always look for an edge. They know when they get caught, they’re in trouble. It’s hard to police it more than we already have. Spit, tacks, files, long fingernails, sandpaper, mucous, hair gel, etc. etc. etc. What more can be done short of having someone monitor pitchers by video both on the mound, in the dugout, clubhouse and restroom.
If the umps are watching me close, i just rub a little jalapeno inside my nose
The pitchers do not bring the balls to the mound from the dugout. The umpires review the rubbed up balls before the games. Each ball is given to the pitcher or catch by the home plate umpire.
America rewards cheaters.
First off pine tar is brown and baseballs are white anyone who has handled real bat pine knows that it sticks to everything and gets everywhere umpires would probably notice the brown finger smudges on the ball. I can also tell you from experience whether it’s bat pine tar rosin mix or bat wax type pine tar it doesn’t stay tacky on the finger tips for long maybe 3-4 pitches, you would have to keep re-applying every so often on the hill, it would be hard to hide. If it’s on the uniform it could be seen, if you kept it in your glove you would get it all over the ball every time you caught it and if you had it on your forearm it would very likely be seen. The only place I can see pitchers hiding it is maybe on the hat.
Cap & Crunch. MLB does a terrible job marketing itself to newcomers. On national telecasts, announcers spend nine innings pontificating about what’s “wrong” with baseball and how to fix it. Those games attract fringe fans who haven’t yet decided to fully invest in the sport. And why should they? Telling people the sport they’re watching is defective is not a good way to win their allegiance. The NBA would never do something so stupid and grew its audience because of it.
Somewhere, Bob Gibson just chuckled and muttered…”punks”
Seems the only way MLB can offer a level playing field is to simply blanketly allow foreign substances, PEDs and electronic sign stealing
Can’t go a month anymore without some story about how everyone is cheating
So basically, he’s admitted to all the reasons used for his termination of employment? The issue about which players are doing what is a separate issue for MLB to deal with going forward. In the meantime, YOU’RE FIRED!!
Using your logic, the Astros players stealing and relaying the signs was a “separate issue”. But the GM and Manager were fired for knowing about it and not stopping it.
Notice the author says “none of the specific allegations have been substantiated”. Really? There a text message from the AL Cy Young Award winner, the authenticity of which is not disputed. And we wonder why the players are never held accountable.
Cole should be suspended a minimum 25 games (5 starts) for his actions.
I have so much to say. But no one listens to me. So, here..
First off, I cant wait until a foul ball sticks to your face.. and that foulball hawk zack comes and grabs it right off of you on live tv. Its not, it’s when.
Someone check that dude for performance enhancers.
And second. I was born in 82. Nineteen, not eighteen.. when the batters used to be able to request where they wanted the ball thrown during their at bats. (I swear, look it up)
Are we headed there again?
And isnt the hall of fame a museum? And aren’t museums there to preserve history? Just make bonds’ , Clemons’, Sosa’s and McGwire plaque bigger than the rest. Hell, throw in a Charlie rose slot machine and tell us why it’s there..
Don’t get caught cheating..
Yeah, I’m trying to figure out why/how this guy was even able to file a lawsuit. The Angels accused him of providing this substance to pitchers (which is against the rules) and he comes out and all but admits he did by stating 70% of pitchers use it, including some high profile pitchers. How does he even have a defamation case? It would be like someone from BALCO in the 90’s getting fired for providing steroids to players suing the league for defamation by saying 70%+ of the players use them. I don’t get the merit behind it.
Anyone can file a lawsuit. A judge will determine if it actually goes anywhere.
so, he was the reason angels relief pitchers performed well till they ran out of steam in 2019 and bomed in ’20!
“more than three-quarters of the league (uses illicit foreign substances).”
Then let’s make it legal so all four quarters of pitchers are able to use foreign substances. Unfair to the 25% who try to play it by the book.
” If you’re not cheating, you’re not trying” Mark Grace.
. . .
Lmao but you all got mad when tom Brady let a little air out of the ball.
If I were the Angels, I wouldn’t worry. Even if the allegations are found to be true, Manfred has already set the standard with his “punishment” of the Astros.
Finally, some Angels pitching news.
I live in CT and listen to WEEI where Lou Merloni (sp?), an ex-Red Sox player, has a show. I remember a couple years ago him talking about this and saying that most pitchers were using something and that his opinion was they should just basically make it legal and control what pitchers could use. His logic was that it was safer for everyone as pitchers would have better control and the playing field would be more level. I completely agree with his opinion on this one. The use of a substance by pitchers seems to be widespread and pretty well known and this seems like a non-issue.
Two things bother me about this. First, MLB’s crackdown. Why now? What good does it really do to suddenly make an issue of this? Second, the Angles fired this guy? Why? Why not just tell him to stop making the stuff?
This seems to be a non-story. Alleges? We all know MLB pitchers use substances for their grips. Certainly, MLB can decide to more strongly regulate, but they have basically allowed it forever. What’s changed?
So the suit moves forward?
A lot of pitchers today throw upwards of 100 MPH. Basically, that’s a 100 MPH rock coming at a batter.
Sticky stuff allows pitchers to increase spin, and it also allows them to throw with better control. I’m not sure I want to see a lot of fastballs sailing in all directions as they leave the pitchers hands…which is why we don’t hear a lot batters complaining.
Doctoring baseballs has been a part of baseball since the inception of overhand pitching in 1884. It wasnt news then, and it isn’t news now.
Saying the quiet part out loud, Gerrit? Oopsy
Orel Hershiser has openly admitted on broadcasts multiple times he used it before/during every game he pitched.
They can let the batboy bring a bucket to the mound for pitchers to dip for all I care. The game is too long and only solution is to eliminate the unlimited foul ball just like the country needs to eliminate the electoral college. Both are outdated concepts
3 hours is “too long”? Try Ritalin.
To be fair, every person with a baseball IQ knows this happens every game
And players should get called out for it publicly at every single game they play. Fun for both sides.
Well, the substance is a mixture of rosin and pine tar, both of which are allowed, for different reasons. The rosin bag on every mound is to help the pitcher get a grip on the baseball, and the pine tar is to help batters grip the bat.
Wild pitches can kill/maim, and so can flying bats, so MLB has an interest in measures to avoid those.. Cutting, scuffing, or putting a glob of vaseline or other substance on a ball to alter its flight chsracteristics are banned, but the substances involved here are to improve the pitchers’ grip, just like the rosin bag.
It’s obvious why MLB does nothing: it’s allowed if the result is the same as using the rosin bag, though technically the pine tar is a rule breaker. Has anyone claimed to see it being put on the ball? THEN it’s doctoring the baseball, a clear violation, since it would alter the flight of the ball.
MLB lets it go, because it’s in keeping with the intent of giving pitchers a good grip for safety reasons. Since MLB owns the baseball manufacturing, they can explore ways of making new baseballs easier to grip, since Lena Blackburne Baseball Rubbing Mud isn’t getting the job done anymore.
Let’s Ignore the Fact That Trevor Bauer created a lab in his home to learn more about Spin
He told us how much using a certain substance would increase the RPM in Game like Situations (which was oddly close to the amount of RPM Gerrit Cole gained after being traded to Houston)
Then he gained that amount of RPM for 1 inning & it went back to his Avg RPM for the rest of the game. To which he had no comment (admitting to cheating in order to prove others were cheating wouldn’t have went well for him)
Trevor Bauer only had 1 season with an ERA under 4 at this point in time. His On Field Tantrum generated made this year look kinda bad tho
Meanwhile the Off season is taken over by 2 Pre Covid conversations
1) His Former College Teammate Gerrit Cole lands the largest Contract by any Pitcher Ever. He had some Beef with Cole. Cole never had more spin than Bauer until he was traded to the Astros. At Which Point Bauer accused him of cheating & pulled the “No Comment” Game
2) The Astros Sign Stealing scandal. A scandal over how a team cheated to win a World Series a few seasons prior. Hitters were gaining an unfair Advantage by knowing what the Pitchers (Bauer’s Position) were going to throw by breaking rules. The Players get off free. The Commissioner doesn’t care if people cheat, Its just a Piece of Metal
Trevor Bauer believes that everyone is cheating except for him. Hitters cheated the entire game of Baseball. Plus Other Pitchers are playing better than him & being rewarded for breaking the rules in a way that he described as worse than steroids. Even after he felt like he had proven it, No one really talks about it.
Then entering his last year before Free Agency, His RPM makes one of the most Insane Jumps I’ve ever seen. He wins the Cy Young Award & becomes the #1 Free Agent target. When asked if he cheated, Rather than saying no….he says he didnt use Pine Tar. Did I mention he basically made his own substances while Testing out his Spin Theory in the lab he made for himself???? Not that this is relevant but his dad was an Engineer.
I already believed Bauer after the no comment game. But Now It seems like he ENGINEERED a substance of his own. That’s a terrible pun, I apologize. Dad Joke??? Crap That pun was even worse
If it’s true about Cole, not surprising. His success came out of nowhere.
To fans of any vintage, this is the biggest non-news of the decade. Whitey Ford joked that he put enough mud on the ball “to build a dam” when he pitched in the World Series.
Of course the owners and officials know about this. How could they not? For years, Craig Kimbrel has been licking his fingers and rubbing them on the dark spot on the bill of his cap before every pitch — in full view of TV cameras. It’s a rare pitcher who doesn’t have a similar spot on his cap. Bauer called out the Astros on Twitter over their ball-doctoring. The Hall of Fame is full of cheaters.
I guess I can’t really blame the pitchers too much, since the owners are so in love with home runs that the league altered the baseballs to advantage the hitters.
Just finished a season with the highest Hit-By-Pitch rate …since the, wait for it, 1800’s!!!
Banning stickum won’t help with that.
I’m in favor of a “controlled substance” anyone who wants to can use. Anything else = Fines/Suspension
Anyone ever ask themselves how the spin rates have escalated to the levels they are today yet the laces are lower? The answer is as obvious as juiced baseballs dictating the number of home runs hit each year.
So which is a biggest advantage?
1 – a pitcher increasing their velocity from steroids
2 – a pitcher increasing their velocity from using a sticky substance
3 – a hitter knowing what is coming on every pitch
4 – a hitter taking steroids
5 – the baseball being juiced and having 10 to 20 percent more bounce to it
The answer in order based on the data:
1 – a hitter knowing what is coming on every pitch
2 – The baseball being juiced
3 – a pitcher increasing their velocity from using a sticky substance
4 – a pitcher increasing his velocity using from using steroids
5 – a hitter taking steroids
Offense 1 got 3 cheaters a one year suspension.
Offense 2 has dictated the number of home runs in baseball since 1871
Offense 3 has seldom met with anything more than a short suspension
Offense 4 has impacted Clemens and possibly a few others but NOBODY else
Offense 5 has changed the make-up of the HOF despite proof that the juice in the baseball dictated the HRs in every decade since 1871.
The game of baseball has no ability to fairly identify infractions and punish the guilty accordingly. Commissioner Kennisaw Mountain Landis banned White Sox players for life because they appeared to throw 5 games in a world series. The Astro organization impacted up to 90 games and got a handful of one year suspensions.
The baseball itself is the single biggest impact on the stats of a season yet the baseball has never been regulated to the degree that it should have been. 1987 saw the juice in the ball jump 16.5% but McGwire’s 49 home runs as a rookie are attributed to his steroid use. In 19888, the ball’s juice fell back by 28.3% and McGwire’s home runs fell from 49 to 32. Did he stop taking steroids? No, steroids had NOTHING to do with his HR total. It was the ball and has been the ball for 140 years.
All the steroid haters should take a hard look at the HRs hit per game per year. That is a measure of home runs normalized for the number of teams playing each year along with the actual number of games played each year. This number since 1871 has fluctuated up and down from year to year but has jumped to new plateaus in 1920s, 1950s, 1990s and recently. These plateaus are established by the combination of how the ball is manufactured, stored, distributed and doctored during all the games in a season. In 1987 when the ball changed dramatically causing the huge jump in HRs nobody noticed. When it fell back in 1988 to the 1986 level nobody concluded a different ball was used in 1987 they just figured it was normal fluctuation. The numbers prove it wasn’t. The lower juice existed through the 1993 season and then in 1994 the juice in the ball was very close to the juice in the ball during the peak year of 1987. Coincidence? It was a strike year. Is it any surprise that we heard the slogan chicks dig the long ball shortly after the juice in the baseball jumped significantly? I think not. Beginning in 1995 the juice in the ball hit new heights that last long after the new steroid regulations were imposed. How can anyone explain that steroids impacted HRs when the normalized data shows that the same oscillating pattern of HRS/GAME/YEAR existed in every decade since 1871 including the 1990s? If steroids influenced home runs the evidence CAN’T be found in the home run data. The home run data corresponds very closely with the juice in the ball but not the juice in the players. Any guy off the street would expect steroids to provide an upturn in HRS/GAME/YEAR but that never happened. HRs fluctuated just like every other decade thus destroying the idea that steroids made a difference on Home Runs. The McGwire example is just one example of the ball having far more impact on home runs than the steroids. Many have argued Bonds cheated late in his career to keep up with Sosa and McGwire. I would argue that steroids were rampant in baseball and thanks to the juiced baseball itself players were incented to use them to keep pace, not realizing the results were stemming from the ball not the steroids.
Check out the careers of Bonds and Aaron. Aaron came into baseball immediately following a change in the ball that resulted in the greatest percentage jump in home runs in the history of baseball including recent history. During the 1930s and 1940s the average juice factor was roughly 0.54. During the 1950s it jumped to 0.85 or roughly 60% higher!! There is a reason we had so many great home run hitters in the 1950s!! Aaron, Mays, Mantle they all thrived during the golden age of home runs. In 1961, the juice peaked at 0.95 and both Mantle and Maris chased Babe Ruth’s single season record of 60 home runs. Comparing that season’s 0.95 juice factor to the 1927 juice factor of 0.37 helps explain how two players could suddenly reach a plateau set by Ruth 34 years earlier.
Comparing Aaron’s surge in the 1950s and mapping it to the drop-off of the juice level in the 1960s and beyond explains why an aging Aaron hit less home runs as he got older. It wasn’t his age that caused the drop-off, it was the ball Bonds, on the other hand, entered baseball at a time when the juice level was comparable to the late 60s when Aaron was fading. Then in 1994 the juice level jumped like the 1950s but percentage wise the jump was about half that of the 1950s. The new juiced ball helped create the steroid era because everyone looked at the drug rather than the real reason for the huge jump. Also, fans didn’t want their heroes passed so the baby boomers used their clout in Congress to stop the cheaters who were not really cheating but appeared to be thanks to the ball.
In the end, it’s wrong to try and get an advantage in any game but our culture has taught us that getting an edge is fair and part of the game. Sometimes the edge can create misleading results like the steroids. At other times, the edge is simply a clear cut advantage and makes each game played unfair as in the case of the Astros. What’s sad is that the MLB can’t figure out a fair way to evaluate impact and assess appropriate punishment.
Do you think Gerrit Cole using a substance to increase spin rate is as big a crime as a guy taking an ineffective steroid during the 1990s (a substance officially banned in 2005)? There is no easy way to measure how many games were impacted by Cole’s use of a sticky substance so it’s hard to define a punishment. The funny thing is that we can look at the HR data and definitively decide that steroids had an INSIGNIFICANT impact on HRs hit during the era and that the baseball has a correlation coefficient near to 1.0 for HRs compared to the juice in the baseball. These are irrefutable facts logged in baseball reference documentation of HRs yet apparently unknown by most writers.
Should Gerrit Cole be banned from the HOF like Bonds and others because what he did probably impacted more games than steroids? That’s your call.
Maybe sports writers should do some research and investigate what I have stated here so they can prove to themselves that the steroid generation is a Myth created by a generation of fans needing to preserve their heroes and it cost an entire generation of players a fair opportunity to be in the HOF. Attempted cheating by using steroids is less of an offense than cheating by identifying the pitch before it is thrown, it’s less of an offense than speeding up the rotation on the ball to add velocity to your fastball.
Time to put the offenses in baseball in perceptive based on their impact to games!!
It’s a nice analysis on statistical impact, but it won’t convince me to teach my daughter that cheating is okay if the impact is minor.
Sports wouldn’t exist without the fans. We trust them to play honestly so we can celebrate the really great moments of skill and sportsmanship. If they cheat, in any way, it takes away from the authenticity of our experience.
Whether it worked or not isn’t the point. The fact they cheated and tried to hide it is.
You state these claims as “data,” but you offer no evidence in support of your claims.
I find this especially dubious:
“The baseball itself is the single biggest impact on the stats of a season yet the baseball has never been regulated to the degree that it should have been. 1987 saw the juice in the ball jump 16.5% but McGwire’s 49 home runs as a rookie are attributed to his steroid use. In 19888, the ball’s juice fell back by 28.3% and McGwire’s home runs fell from 49 to 32. Did he stop taking steroids? No, steroids had NOTHING to do with his HR total. It was the ball and has been the ball for 140 years.”
What do you mean “the juice in the ball”?
And the claim that it (whatever it is) was found to “jump 16.5%” and then “fell back by 25.3%” sounds like the sort of contrived statistics we’re accustomed to in TV ads; “__% more effective than the other leading brand” – “9 out of 10 doctors recommend,” etc.
At least provide a source for these alleged statistics please.