The Rays entered the offseason with just two players making more than $10MM per year, and in case you’ve been hiding in a cave far, far from the Internet, they already traded one of them this week. With Blake Snell now in San Diego, rumors immediately shifted to the team’s other most expensive player: center fielder Kevin Kiermaier. USA Today’s Bob Nightengale tweeted that Kiermaier is “next on the trade block” for the Rays, although while the Rays may still hope to shed additional payroll, that’s too simplistic a characterization of what should be a more layered discussion.
First up in any discussion of the 30-year-old Kiermaier will always be his defensive wizardry. His penchant for highlight-reel dives and wall-scaling home run robberies is well known. Frequent diving catches don’t make someone a defensive master, necessarily; some players will need to dive on plays that shouldn’t be that difficult in order to compensate for a poorly run route or a bad read off the bat. That’s rarely the case with Kiermaier, though, who has ranked in the 89th percentile or better in each of the past four seasons by measure of Statcast’s “Outfield Jump” metric. Kiermaier has been in the 91st percentile or better in Statcast’s average sprint speed in each of those four years as well.
Dating back to 2017, Kiermaier ranks fourth among big league players, at any position, with 58 Defensive Runs Saved. Mookie Betts is the only outfielder who tops him. Matt Chapman and Andrelton Simmons, both infielders by trade, are the other two. That trio, on average, has played 815 more innings in the field during that stretch than Kiermaier, however. As such, there’s a very real argument that on a per-inning/per-game basis, Kiermaier is the most impactful defensive player in baseball. Statcast’s Outs Above Average metric dates back to 2017, and as with DRS, Kiermaier is elite. He ranks fifth among 487 outfielders in that time despite more limited chances in the field.
Of course, those limited chances are part of the knock on Kiermaier. He’s played in just 364 games and taken 1427 plate appearances over the past four seasons combined. While his reckless abandon in the outfield surely dings him up from time to time and requires the occasional off day — particularly given his home park’s artificial surface — that hasn’t been his major issue. Kiermaier has sustained a fractured hip (2017) and a torn ligament in his thumb (2018) while sliding on the basepaths in recent years, both of which have cost him months of action.
It’s somewhat remarkable that the hip injury didn’t have a lasting impact on Kiermaier’s superlative glovework, but it’s certainly fair to wonder to what extent injuries have impacted him at the plate. Consider that from 2014-17, Kiermaier was not only a world-class defender but also an above-average hitter, posting a composite .262/.319/.431 batting line. From 2018-20, however, he’s managed just a .222/.286/.386 slash in 1006 plate appearances.
His 2017 production actually improved upon returning from the hip fracture, so perhaps that shouldn’t be viewed as a major contributor to his offensive decline. The torn ligament in his thumb, however, which occurred in April 2018, may have had a considerably more adverse impact on his output at the plate. Hand and wrist issues that impact a player’s grip can wreak havoc on their mechanics and their production. Perhaps it’s coincidental, but since 2018, Kiermaier’s strikeout rate has jumped five percent and his ground-ball rate has steadily risen.
An optimistic trade partner might think Kiermaier could still return to his ways as an average or better hitter. He walked at a career-best 12.6 percent clip in 2020’s shortened slate of games, which certainly bodes well. Even when accounting for the fact that Kiermaier walked just once in 57 postseason plate appearances, that’s 21 walks in 216 total trips to the plate in 2020 — a 9.7 percent clip that would match his career-high and easily top the 6.5 percent mark he carried into the season.
Kiermaier has also improved his hard-hit and barreled-ball rates over the past couple seasons despite not having much production to show for it. His expected weighted on-base average (xwOBA) — a metric that reflects what a player’s overall offensive output should be, based on frequency and quality of contact — from 2019-20 is right in line with his 2015-17 levels.
Given that, there’s plenty of reason to consider Kiermaier a strong bounceback candidate. Even if he doesn’t rebound at the plate, any team would know it’s getting an elite defender with plus speed to contribute on the bases. The problem for interested parties, of course, is that Kiermaier is paid at a higher rate than a glove-first player of that nature would typically be compensated. He’s owed $26MM over the next two seasons: $11.5MM in 2021, $12.5MM in 2022 and at least a $2.5MM buyout on a $13MM option for the 2023 season.
It’s not an overly burdensome contract, but at a time when teams throughout the league are scaling back on payroll, it’s a notable chunk of cash. That’s all the more true when Kiermaier’s skill set is similar to that of free agent Jackie Bradley Jr. — a player who may not command as much as the two years and $26MM still owed to Kiermaier. Bradley would cost only money for a team seeking a center field boost, and while he’s not a great offensive player, he does have a steadier and more productive track record.
Also problematic is that while Tampa Bay’s trade of Snell to the Padres brought a huge prospect haul, a trade of Kiermaier might resemble more of a salary dump in terms of its return. Some interested teams may even ask the Rays to kick in a bit of cash to cover a portion of the remaining money owed to the 2015 Platinum Glover. For a player of his status in the organization, a straight salary dump would be a tougher sell both to the fans and to the clubhouse.
Given all that context, it’s perhaps not surprising to see MLB Network’s Jon Heyman tweet that despite Kiermaier’s availability on the trade market, the chances of a deal coming together “aren’t great.” The Rays have already weakened their 2021 roster by trading away Snell and declining Charlie Morton’s option, and jettisoning Kiermaier for nothing of immediate value (on the heels of a World Series run) would only further diminish their hope of a return postseason bid.
Granted, some of the dollars that had been earmarked for Kiermaier could be invested back into the free-agent pool, but it’s extremely difficult to find a player with Kiermaier’s upside on the open market with the limited resources they’d save in dealing him away. Kiermaier has still topped seven WAR over the past three seasons combined, even with his bat on the decline, and in that aforementioned 2014-17 peak, he checked in at 21 wins above replacement.
Not only is Kiermaier’s ceiling higher than any replacement the Rays would bring into the fold, but the possibility of trading him for pennies on the dollar, only to watch him rebound and send his value soaring, looms larger in this instance. It’s a very different situation than moving Snell when his value was much closer to (or arguably even at) its apex.
I’d expect plenty of rumors regarding the possibility of a Kiermaier trade between now and Opening Day, but for all these reasons (and likely quite a few more), it’s a complicated scenario that should by no means be considered a given. For debate’s sake, let’s tack a poll onto the end of this breakdown and open it for discussion in the comments (link to poll for Trade Rumors mobile app users):
802Ghost
I wouldn’t mind seeing Atlanta make a play for him.
Mrtwotone
If ender inciarte is one of the players going to Tampa I’d be fine.
bencole
Why would Tampa do this??? If its a salary dump, Inciarte is making $8.7 million this year. That gives them a worse player for the money and doesn’t solve the problem. Inciarte has massive negative trade value right now.
GabeOfThrones
Because Inciarte has less money owed to him. Why would Atlanta do this when they have Pache and Waters? Maybe if the Rays throw in Nick Anderson.
bencole
But they could just dump him to someone else and not pay a crappy player $8.7 million. KK’s salary is a bit more than his value, but not nearly as bad as Inciarte. Someone would take KK as a salary dump and ask the Rays to pay $2-3 million. He’s still a decent player.
LordD99
Not a fan of either team so I’ll try to give a realistic view of the players mentioned.
Kiermaier remains an elite defender, perhaps still the best glove in center in the game. He has value. Inciarte, sadly, is now at best average in center with his defensive stats indicating he was actually below average in 2020. You don’t get an elite defender and a great low-cost reliever for Inciarte in 2021, even for some salary relief. That’s a problem since Inciarte will cost nearly $10M in 2021 when including his buyout. Basically, you don’t get anything for that type of profile and salary. Inciarte might not even be in the Majors in 2022 unless he can rebound this season. I’d bet against it since he never carried much of a bat, which means he doesn’t profile as a corner OFer either. If his defense doesn’t rebound to *plus* defense in center, then he is going to have a hard time landing a MLB job in 2022. He can’t even go play in Japan or Korea as they want power potential for their imports.
Kiermaier’s glove can still provide enough value to pay for his contract, and there’s always the hope his bat will rebound some. There’s no similar hope when it comes to Inciarte’s bat. Kiermaier is injury prone though so the Rays will have to pay down the deal some if they want a prospect back.
As for Anderson, the surplus value on him is so high that he’s not even in the conversation since we’ve already established that Kiermaier has more value than Inciarte, even with a higher salary.
Cap & Crunch
Rays would swap Kk for Enders lower/expiring contract in a NY minute
Theres no market for KK anywhere- I thought sneaking him into a Snell deal with the Mets made a lotta sense for everyone but that ships sailed- KK will be a Ray for at least 2021 and probably 22 as well. Then he will be bought out in 23
bencole
I disagree. Maybe if there was a third year on KK. But the Rays are contenders. They could simply keep KK for near the same price as Ender, have a solid player for a year while they contend, and then attempt the same dump next season with only one year of KK left. Ender’s salary doesn’t fix the Rays problem this year at all and KK is even easier to dump next year. And KKs value is not that far off of his salary, just not to the Rays because they can’t afford it. Trading for Ender makes absolutely no sense. And really, I think another team will take a good chunk of KKs salary straight up, even in this market. He’s been a reasonably valuable player all and all. And I’m not a Rays fan.
bush1
I agree with the other dude saying the Rays would swap out KK for Ender. Your overvaluing KK a lot in this pandemic environment and the money he’s owed. I don’t know a team would even pay half of what he’s owed if he was a free agent.
joedirte4life
We already have a weak hitting CF in Inciarte
PutPeteRoseInTheHall
Difference is, KK has the most value in the MLB, looking strictly at defense
Ketch
Atlanta already has two solid defenders for CF in Pache and Inciarte. The Braves are far more likely to be moving a CF than acquiring one.
The Natural
pache is a younger clone of Keirmaier.
Ketch
And a significantly cheaper one, which is the most important part of it.
SalaryCapMyth
I’ve thought that about Pache before myself and while that wouldn’t be my preference, Kiermaier had a span of productivity that was pretty damn good.
2014- 3.5
2015- 7.1
2016- 5.5
2017- 4.9
You could definitely end up with worse.
Marty McRae
Unfortunately a lot of Kiermaiers value is tied up in speed, and age doesnt do nice things to speed. He’s the type who could easily fall off a cliff very quickly, especially given how many injuries he’s already had.
SalaryCapMyth
The stats I posted above is WAR, in case it needs explaining.
@Marty. Absolutely could. I could certainly see a similar trajectory. Like I said, it’s not my preference but piling up 20+ WAR over the course of 4 years isn’t bad. Plan on regression as he approaches his 30’s and you could still look back on his time in Atlanta as being quite valuable.
Stevil
There’s a lot of flexibility to account for decline and he’s only under contract for 2 more years (’23 option).
Tampa doesn’t really need to move him, their payroll is well under control and they could rotate Margot into center to give him rest. But if they did, a team that wouldn’t need to lean on him heavily would make sense.
SalaryCapMyth
@Stevil. You’re right. He posted 1.7 WAR last season. Not too shabby for just 159 plate appearances. That’s not someone you are desperate to get off your roster. Maybe the Rays are hanging him out there while he is still obviously productive to see what they can get.
phillip beasley
The 1.7 WAR came from the glove, not the bat. Defensively, KK is a beast, but offensively he’s awful. The last three seasons, he’s put up a wRC+ of 79, 78, 93. He’s a platoon player. He’s owed $26mm over the next two years, no team is going to touch that without some major compensation.
Dorothy_Mantooth
There are 3 positions in baseball where having a player with a WRC+ below 100 is acceptable and one of those is CF (the others are C & 2B). If the player is a defensive wizard like KK, JBJ, etc..you can accept a WRC+ of 85, 90, 95 and feel good about putting them on the field nearly every day.
This is why Springer is looking at $25M per year. He’s still above average defensively and posts WRC+’s of 130 and up. If you get that in CF, you have struck gold.
phillip beasley
KK is a platoon player nowadays. If he could put up a wRC+ of 90 as a full time player it would be different, but he can’t. He’s terrible offensively. Look at his last three seasons. There’s a reason he only had 21 PA against lefties in 2020.
Sure, it’s possible to win if your CF, 2B and C put up a wRC+ below 100. In JBJ’s case, it makes a huge difference when the player to his left puts up a 185 wRC+.
KK is valuable as a 4th OF. There’s no denying, he’s a defensive stud. But no team, in this market, is going to take on $26mm without significant cash or players/prospects.
elmedius
Great commentary on Kiermaier’s defense and the art of the dive. I remember watching David Justice seemingly stall on balls just so he could slide for them. Thanks for the article and poll. It will be interesting to see where he ends up.
iverbure
A lot of times it’s easier to dive and get underneath a ball than run through the ball and not catch it at the highest apex. But you’d have to actually play baseball and being athletic enough to know that. It’s especially easier if you have knee injuries from being such a great athlete from hockey and basketball and have lost range of motion in a knee or both.
SalaryCapMyth
@iverbure. One of the best comments I’ve read for a while.
its_happening
Easier does not mean better.
Someone who’s played baseball would have more insight than what he provides, sorry to say.
His comment really had nothing to do with what others have referenced.
One of the most throwaway comments you just over rated.
FrancisK
None or that made any sense….
jessaumodesto
Why would you trade him? With some Mexico Juice Kevin would be the best player in baseball
DodgerNation
It’s funny you assume the rays even have fans to be disappointed. I’m not sure if you’ve seen their attendance numbers recently (pre-covid) but I can probably count them on one hand.
UnknownPoster
They play 30 miles outside of Tampa across a body of water, and it’s in a meh part of town, to be nice. They have very good tv ratings. Their location is why they have no fans in the stands. But they exist
dave 2
MLB doesn’t understand the Tampa market. If they built a few strip clubs by the stadium attendance would skyrocket.
jkoch717
If the Rays would trade KK, I think the best thing they could do would be to sign JBJ to a one year deal. Similar players and a one year deal would be reinvesting, so not losing much of anything, and give you more financial flexibility next offseason.
averagejoe15
They have Arozarena and Margot to play CF there’s no need to sign JBJ if they trade KK.
oldmansteve
No need to sign JBJ. They could just swing Margot to CF, Arozarena to RF. They have plenty of corner guys who can play LF.
looiebelongsinthehall
JBJ should not need to accept a one year deal from Tampa unless he wants to. If the multiple year deal he’s anticipating doesn’t materialize, the Sox will offer more than Tampa if he decides to play it out again and seek a multi year deal in 22.
Marty McRae
Meanwhile Wander is coming and knowing TB, there’s about 10 other MLB-quality middle infielders on their way (i’m guessing), Willy Adames and Brandon Lowe are either getting traded or moving to a corner OF spot (can’t they play CF too?)
oldmansteve
Lowe is destined for LF when Brujan gets called up. Adames or Franco will shift to 3rd when Franco comes up.
Sideline Redwine
NO. JBJ is not joining the Rays. Please and thank you.
TB has plenty of other, better CF. Margot first and foremost. And you don’t have to look deep in the prospect pool for the next one…
Mlb1971
Sideline – yes, Tampa has Margot. No, I do not think he is better than Jackey Bradley.
Margot career OPS – .693, OBP – .304
Bradley career OPS – .732, OPS – .321
However, Margot is under contract for $3.2 million. Would I take Margot and a starting pitcher for $4 million over JBJ for $7 million, then the answer is probably yes.
Regardless, Tampa has no need for JBJ whatsoever
Ryan W
Keep him, for the fans and the fact that the Rays payroll is what? 50-60 million now?
Joe Carters walkoff
9 dollars and 23 cents
DarkSide830
there are suitable alternatives available on the open market for much lesd
Cambio
Mets could trade for him and get a decent prospect by taking on the majority of his salary. This would still give them the opportunity to allocate capital to Bauer and someone like Odorizzi.
jim stem
I’m leaning toward passing on Bauer’s mentality. Yes, he kept it together for 60 days and a Cy Young award in Ohio. But that’s a whole lot different than surviving the NY media and fan base with playoff expectations after signing what will be a huge contract.
Cambio
He could very well struggle with the NY media. Then again, he opens himself up to social media whenever he isn’t pitching so he clearly loves being the center of attention.
jim stem
Except preplanned social media posts from your couch are a lot different than being face to face with reporters quoting your immediate responses. Honestly, have we ever heard about how hard it is to play in Ohio, the tough Cleveland fans or unforgiving Cincinnati Press?
In Bauer’s case, I think all his mental shenanigans become magnified and toxic under NY scrutiny. Cespedes, Harvey, Valentine, Randolph, Strawberry, Gooden, Dice K, Whitson, Hampton, Diaz, Sax…there’s something about NY that destroys certain personality traits.
aussiegiants53
Come on in Giants!! Take his contract and get an enticing player, say KK and Mclanahan for Jaylin Davis and Ricardo Genoves…
Steve Adams
The Rays aren’t desperately trying to dump Kiermaier and in no world would they ever attach a prospect like McClanahan to him in order to shed the money.
aussiegiants53
Haha wouldn’t they? I’d love the Giants to grab McClanahan but at what cost, I’d like to see KK in a Giants uni as well but one can dream
Marty McRae
Do you know who the Rays are? They are the team that robs everyone in trades, not the other way around. They would never accept that deal.
BobGibsonFan
Maybe not McClanahan… how about Greg Jones? I think he would be a potential 2B in Detroit.
Sideline Redwine
McClanahan isn’t going anywhere. Do you not pay attention to how the Rays work? They don’t trade away hot prospects.
Steve Adams
Just realized there was a typo in the URL linking off to the poll for those who are looking to vote that way. It’s been fixed and should be working now. Apologies on that.
Enrico Pallazzo
If you refuse to pay a player over 10M and trade each guy who gets to that level then you just flat out do not deserve to own a team. Go own a minor league team. Absolutely pathetic and makes the entire sport look bad.
stymeedone
The problem you have is that Tampa Bay is making it work, and have been more successful than teams that spend more. I don’t care about whether my team spends. I care about whether they win.
Marty McRae
Moneyball was actually a billionaires plot to make saving them money look cool.
Enrico Pallazzo
They have been very successful Last I checked they have never won a world series though.. Imagine how much more successful they could be if they didn’t limit themselves to keeping payroll as low as possible. I think fans outside Tampa Bay mostly just pity them and their fans. Their stadium is horrible and there is zero energy. Not sure how you can get more fans or get them excited when you refuse to spend money on the roster or the stadium. MLB should force them to sell or move..
UnknownPoster
What do the Phillies have for spending more in the last half decade? That Cubs in the last 3 years?
Spending doesn’t equal winning
MoRivera 1999
Tampa has finished first in the division exactly once in the past ten years. They have finished third to fifth six times. I don’t think it’s working as well as you think it is.
UnknownPoster
They’ve won 90+games(or paced) in 7 of the last 10 years
Just because the Yankees and Boston spend 3-4x as much, doesn’t mean the Rays aren’t highly highly efficient at putting a winner on the field
therealryan
Why do you hate winning so much?
bravesfan88
KK is a great OF’er, but any contending team is teallynonlyngoing tonwant to use him as maybe a 4th OF’er/spot starter/defensive replacement..
No one will be paying over 10mil for that, that’s why the Braves havent been able to trade Ender.
You could write almost the EXACT same article about Inciarte, with the same results…Neither of these guys are getting moved..
yandymania
Yeah only contending teams like the rays (world series) would be stupid enough to put kiermaier in cf
averagejoe15
Kiermaier has a lot more value than Inciarte at this point. Inciarte is either nursing a nagging injury or has simply lost his wheels.
KK’s sprint speed is as good as it ever was (near the top of the league). Inciarte, who had less room for error in the speed department to begin with, is down 2 full MPH from his peak which hurts both his defense and his ability to get on base given his weak exit velos.
Inciarte always had less room for error than Kiermaier due to worse speed and lower exit velos and while KK has pretty much maintained those figures heading into his age 31 season. Inciarte’s aging has been much less kind.
bravesfan88
Well, you sir have convinced me otherwise..I just assumed KK was on the decline as well with speed and his defense slightly declining as well…
Kk is better than Inciarte, I know that, especially after his precipitous decline, but I was just putting them in the same boat as similar types of players with similar amounts of money owed..Wasnt exactly an apples to apples comparison..
However Inciarte is only signed for one more year, while KK is at two, so that does mitigate some of KKs extra value
Ma4170
KK has very little value… a talented guy who can’t hit anymore (and was never that good a bat to begin with), will continue to lose speed in his 30s, and OF defense has value but not that much… but worst of all, he can’t stay healthy… he’s a 4th OF, and no smart team is going to pay $10m+ For him, which is why TB has been desperate to unload him… shocker
stymeedone
This site is speculating. Not aware of an actual rumor (oxymoron), let alone any hint that TB is “desperate to unload him.”
Cap & Crunch
Id rather be saddled with Enders than Kk’s contract at this moment –
These are just ride out situations – Not good enough to trade on the field , not large enough contracts to want to attach a prospect and ship out
It feels like a different piece of KK breaks every year, he doesnt feel like a guy that will be in the MLB when hes 35 even but you never know
LordD99
No. You’d have to write a different article about Inciarte, who is no longer a plus defensive OFer. May not even be an average defensive OFer.
User 1104686089
If I was Rays fan it would tough to watch him go. KK is one of those guys that basically has to hit at a league average clip to be useful to a team trying to win right now. The Rangers hopefully have a future guy like that in Leody Taveras.
eatonculo
What teams would be interested in Kiermaier?
Cambio
Teams with financial flexibility who have a good offense and can therefore afford to have a defensive-minded CF who won’t hit a ton. The Mets stand out. The Dodgers and Padres come to mind as well. Bellinger and Grisham would be moved to a corner in the above scenario.
jim stem
The Mets do match defensively and payroll wise, but only if they get an arm, too. We already have too many left handed hitting outfielders and it’s doubtful we deal any of them.
Conforto playes every day. If we actually sign Springer, he has to play everyday. If we add Kiermaier to start in center, that means Nimmo and Smith are both on the bench. That’s great for depth, but not for run production or getting them enough at bats to be productive.
The flip side to the above is that his acquisition provides a plethora of late inning strategy options for the manager. Springer, Nimmo and Conforto can all play any position in the grass creating a lot late inning matchups at the plate.
I guess the question is, which (who) comes first, Springer or Kiermaier? If Springer signs elsewhere, I think the Mets have to move quickly on plan B or plan C. Jackie Bradley and Kiermaier become more in demand if the Mets don’t sign Springer.
Cambio
If Mets were to get Kiermaier they should avoid Springer. Allocate the capital on the rotation.
Cap & Crunch
Bellinger will be one of the best CF’ers in the game moving forward defensively
Ketch
Boston? They have cash, a vacancy in CF, and are run by the guy who wrote that contract in the first place.
averagejoe15
Houston – Have been interested in JBJ and need to replace Springer with someone.
Toronto – Improvement over Grichuk defensively, they could platoon or just rotate guys around.
NYM – Probably prefer Springer, but should he land elsewhere.
Phillies – No reliable CF on the roster right now.
Giants – Yaz isn’t a CF, probably better ways to use KKs salary for a team that isn’t going to be atop the standing.
Padres – Grisham was surprisingly good in CF, but his bat looked unplayable at the end of the year after a strong start. Not sure how much is left to spend.
Colorado – KK is a better version of Pillar who they continue to have interest in. Probably wouldn’t take on the money though.
Angels – It’s not unthinkable to move Trout off CF, he conceded CF to Pete Bourjos early in his career, but SP is more likely there focus with any available $$s.
I’d say the Cubs but I think it’s clear they aren’t trying and the Red Sox won’t give up anything for a stop gap CF in a lost year.
Doubt the Dodgers are interested. Bellinger is one of the best CFs in the league and Mookie isn’t the worst 2nd option there. Plus Chris Taylor also plays there though his defense leaves something to be desired.
pustule bosey
the thing about the giants on that list is that it is the rays, if it was some other team I would think the giants would be all in on taking on the full salary + a rated prospect as a salary dump but they don’t really need KK since likely you will see dubon get more time with yaz to bridge to ramos who is likely to come up mid to late this year. So unless the rays are really avid to dump the salary I wouldn’t see a fit there
Cambio
The Phillies don’t have the money to take on his contract, especially if they want to bring Realmuto back.
skullbreathe
If the Rays do trade KK their team salary will be down in the mid- $50’s which is a joke… Time for a minimum MLB team salary floor..
Steve Adams
They’re already in the mid-50s. Without Kiermaier it’d drop to the mid-40s.
oldmansteve
Why? If a team chooses to be cheap why shouldn’t they be able to?
averagejoe15
Because teams choose to be cheap in order to draw greater profits from MLB’s revenue sharing. No matter how bad a team is, as long as they are a small market team in MLB’s calculation, they are guaranteed to receive revenue sharing.
A floor isn’t the only potential solution. Tying part of the revenue sharing calc to winning percentage could help (as noted in the below source). So could reversing the draft order to a first out model where the team who finished closest to a playoff spot without getting in receives the first pick and the team with the worst record the 15th.
This source goes pretty deep on revenue sharing:
captainsblog.info/2020/03/07/looking-under-the-hoo…
DoritosLocosTaco
Perhaps having a salary floor in which you must spend above that limit to qualify for revenue sharing would help the problem. Obviously the other rules to who qualifies for revenue sharing would apply. Maybe this would incentivize teams to spend more in order to achieve the revenue sharing money.
Marty McRae
Because its detrimental to the health of the sport? There’s dozens upon dozens of other rich dudes who would love to own a baseball team with the sole purpose of winning a title, not profiting a hundredfold on while fielding a miserable product.
Why do you want uncompetitive teams in the sport? Weird hill to die on.
Sideline Redwine
And yet, they win. Call them cheap, I call them smart. Plenty of teams spend like crazy and end up .500 or below…maybe TB’s model is a good one?
Marty McRae
An owner not spending money should not ever be viewed as a positive thing, or a smart thing. TB has no rings, neither does Moneyball Oakland. You simply have to spend money to field a title winner. You are deluding yourself if you think otherwise.
It’s really disgusting that is has been made into this glorified thing that “at least the owners saved money!” angle never existed until the 00s and its easily the worst aspect of the game right now.
Sideline Redwine
I don’t care if the owner saves money or not, simply pointing out that their methodology has been solid. True, no rings, but success nonetheless. Do we consider the Cleveland baseball club unsuccessful over the past decade because they did not win a ring? Sometimes success is more relative. The Rays were pretty close last year, and could have won the thing with a little luck (and a manager not itching to follow his regular season rules in the postseason), following this methodology; I know close is not a ring, but it says something. Go ahead and complain, I love watching my team beat the big-spending hotshot teams.
MoRivera 1999
Tampa finished first just once in the last ten years. They finished third to fifth six different times. I don’t think they’ve been as successful as some people claim/assume.
stymeedone
Explain KCs title?
UnknownPoster
90 wins 7/10 seasons, just 20 years into existence
Woohoo. Your team spends 4x as much to win one more game than they do! You shouldn’t be proud of that!
Btw, guess how many times the Yankees have won 90+ in that same time frame? 7. So who’s the better run organization?
LordD99
Sideline, are you a Rays fan? It’s easy to admire the efficiency of the Rays from afar. They’re doing nothing to grow their market by enticing young fans to follow them long term, which means their model hurts the sport. They’re also not interested in winning a championship. Their goal is to cut salary while remaining competitive just enough to increase the owner’s profits. It’s a bad model for the game. I found myself rooting for the Dodgers in the World Series. I’m hoping the Padres do well in 2021. Give me teams that are striving to win it all. I have little interest in teams trying to win the Fangraphs $/WAR title.
BobGibsonFan
Each major league team needs to spend at least $75 mil in salaries… anything less, they get penalized the amount and it goes into a fund for minor league expenses. or whatever.
That way, if a team wants to have a $40 mil payroll, then they pay $35 mil to the league to help with minor league expenses.
old man hub
The simple answer is Kiermaier cannot be a 1 to 1 swap. The logical answer is Kiermaier and one of Tampa’s myriad middle infielders to clear space for Wander Franco and perhaps Vidal Brujan. Even then takers are limited. I don’t see a huge market for Willie Adames and the best fits for Brad Lowe are in division (unless he’s seen as a corner OF). Ideally, I’d like to see KK in Wrigley where his brother reportedly works on the grounds crew. That brick wall would naturally discouraged leaps, the netting and natural warning track might help too. But while Chicago is a nice landing spot for KK, the best spots for Lowe and Adames seem to be Baltimore or Boston who both have needs at middle infield. Miami might fit for all concerned – 3 team deal ?
averagejoe15
The Rays are a couple seasons away from considering moving Brandon Lowe whose contract is even friendlier than Snell’s was. If they did move him he’d be a good target for basically ever competitive or near competitive team in the MLB at 2B or COF.
Wendle, Brosseau, Diaz, and Adames would be the candidates to be moved but there probably isn’t a huge market for any of those guys. I really don’t see why KK couldn’t be a 1:1 swap and it’s probably more likely than a multi-player deal if a little cash is involved.
bobtillman
If anybody would offer anybody, he’d be gone by now. The only ways he get moved is is they (a) eat aa SIGNFICANT portion ( 7M/year) of the salary, or include some prospect capital.
Steve is right: KK=JBJ. And Bradley has a MUCH more accurate arm. But I doubt that JBJ clears 6M/ year, and a multi-year deal is unlikely.
Not to undersell the guy, but he’s at best a complimentary piece on a well-healed competitive team, and nobody’s going to pay 24M for that.
Dorothy_Mantooth
JBJ will get at least $8M/yr on a 2-3 year deal.
rocky7
Can we quote you on that….when it doesn’t happen will you re-comment?
Is it possible that nobody is going to pay that kind of money with a long term 2-3 year deal for a defense first, no doubt Gold Glove centerfielder, but a tremendously streaky hitter who disappears for long stretches and doesn’t steal bases either.
When you look around the league, which contender doesn’t have a solid centerfielder in comparison so why would a second tier team pay that kind of money to “save runs” while not offering any offense to support him playing (sorry Steve, but 2017 was 3+ seasons ago and KK ain’t going to remind anybody of Babe Ruth at age 30+)!
Dorothy_Mantooth
Yes you can, Rocky. Minimum for JBJ of 2/$15M with a $1M buyout on a 3rd year option. What happens if I’m right?
bobtillman
It’s not impossible, but only if teams bank on (a) a shortened season in both 2021 (Covid) and 2022 (labor). It’s likely JBJ’s offensive push in 2020 was more a contract drive than a reflection of ability. Teams realize this.
But it is a great opportunity for teams like the Giants, Mets et al to pick up a useful piece and some prospects.
Freddie Morales
He’s gotta go to a team like TOR who really need to improve OF defense desperately. When Springer signs with the Mets, they might pivot towards a trade for KK
its_happening
Or sign JBJ who’ll probably command less than Kiermaier. That would make more sense than dealing for KK.
Dbird777
Jeez, Steve, do you get a referral fee if Kiermaier’s traded. lol?
That was a hell of a dissertation, my man
Down with OBP
How dare Steve write too much content for a site he’s paid to write for!!!
I’ll just say thanks Steve – when other places are running stupid year end lists, it’s nice to read about rumors and/or dimensions of trading or signing a player.
bravesfan88
I agree, it was a great piece..A little much for a guy like KK, but still an excellent read..Should be more articles like these, this was good stuff!!
mookiesboy
His contract in these financial times makes him a negative value player. Bradley will be lucky to get 2×10 and that’s comp. Just how things are right now
jim stem
His career .307 obp is a shame. Learn to take a walk and that .220/.350 becomes a heckuva lot more productive. Otherwise he’s probably nothing more than a 4th outfielder hitting 9th. Ten million per season is a LOT to pay for that unless that translates into 150 partial games played and periodic starts.
jim stem
Responding to myself, sorry. If the Mets could get him in a salary dump plus a pitcher like Chaz Roe for a couple of low level minor leaguers, it’d be a good move.
Pair him with Springer and Conforto and now you have something special brewing, especially if it means being able to retain Davis, Nimmo AND Smith?
I’m thinking Bauer’s signing takes on less importance if the Mets can simply sign or trade for two more dependable veteran starters or, at minimum, one true #2.
Moving Rosario for a starter from a contract standpoint makes some sense given the team’s current positional depth. If the Reds are selling, we should be buying. Could also look at John Means from the Orioles.
DarkSide830
Roe isnt on the team anymore
jim stem
Oops on Chaz Roe. I thought he was still under contract. But then again, “…a pitcher LIKE Chaz Roe is still accurate.” Lol.
HalosHeavenJJ
The Rays were smart to hold onto KK rather than link him with Snell. I think he stays in Tampa as very few organizations value defense to the degree they do and JBJ is pretty much a KK comp on the free agent market.
yandymania
Are we still memeing about jbj and pillar being anywhere close to kiermaier in the field?
DarkSide830
are we still holding out hope that KK will ever be a decent hitter again?
yandymania
That would maybe be funny if kiermaier wasnt such a top shelf defender compared to JBJ. Its not even close. Here’s a little nugget for you:
Kiermaier DRS = 135
JBJ DRS = 53
its_happening
With those numbers there shouldn’t be a problem trading Kiermaier for some prospects since he’s a top shelf defender.
yandymania
I’m sure you thought you were making a point there little guy but alas
its_happening
I did, you missed it, no shocker, and using flawed defensive numbers still didn’t help your cause. Stay bitter my friend.
phillip beasley
I don’t think KK’s defense is in question. He’s a beast with the glove. However, the Rays bat boy would be as effective at the plate.
Down with OBP
The rays won’t kick in cash, more likely to tie him to a prospect. I’m sure a team would pay $26 million for a decent prospect – doesn’t need to be close to the majors.
CNichols
If you look at the Zack Cosart deal, SF basically bought the Angels #4 prospect, Will Wilson, who was like about 10th in SF’s stronger farm, for $12.6M. So theoretically, the ability to eat $26M should get you a solid prospect in return.
The problem is, there are probably very few teams in this market who are willing to spend that much. $26M might be too hard to find a buyer for when teams are pinching pennies.
LordD99
I have the opposite view. The way the Rays operate, they’re more likely to pay down part of KK’s last two years in return for a prospect. They end up reducing their payroll overall and they increase their prospect ranks, which is worth money to them. That’s their model. Reduce salary now, increase talent long term.
I Beg To Differ
The complexity of trading Kiermair
– injury prone
– teams don’t want to pay good prospects to take a gamble and assume his salary in 2021 and 2022 (owners crying poor).
– fell off a cliff offensively since 2017 (not that big of a deal given his defensive prowess).
Sideline Redwine
Thank you for summing up the article.
jimmertee
Good summary. Kiermaier is honing no where unless the Rays give him away and pay the freight. No decent prospect is coming back. Give it a rest.
Brosseau's_Revenge
Interesting comments. I think if you put together a package of KK and solid prospect Taylor Walls (2B) you would get the Phillies attention to get a deal done. Maybe Vince Velasquez and his 4-5M salary coming back to the Rays?
Ancient Pistol
If an MLB team can only survive with a $50 million-ish payroll then it’s time for the franchise to get a new owner and city.
stymeedone
Tampa isn’t surviving. They are thriving. That’s where your argument fails.
MoRivera 1999
One first place finish in the past ten years. Six third to fifth place finishes. I guess some people might call that thriving.
stymeedone
So you are saying that they have been competitive in 4 of the last 10 years at that payroll. Not bad at all! For all their spending, Boston should be first every year, as should NYY, because they spend. Evidentually, that’s not the answer either, because it hasn’t worked that way. I would love to see Cashman try to operate on TB revenues.
ASapsFables
The Rays best opportunity to shed Kevin Kiermaier’s contract might have been to attach him to one of their Blake Snell trade propositions. Surely the Rays attempted that strategy in their discussions with teams interested in Snell.
Ultimately, they dealt Snell to the Padres who balked at Kiermaier or would have significantly reduced their package of the four talented young players going back to Tampa.
With the Padres clearly in deep discussions with the Cubs regarding ace Yu Darvish while also finalizing their trade for Snell, I wonder if a more complicated 3-team trade was ever discussed that might have sent Kiermaier to Chicago. The Cubs currently have only two outfielders on their 40-man roster. The addition of Keirmaier in CF along with perennial Gold Glove RF Jason Heyward and LF Ian Happ would have given the Cubs an elite defensive outfield, something they might still achieve with the signing of free agent Jackie Bradley Jr. who has some connections with the remaining former Red Sox in the Cubs front office and on their coaching staff that includes Jed Hoyer, Craig Breslow and manager David Ross among others.
ASapsFables
Btw: Kevin Kiermaier’s older brother Dan is a groundskeeper for the Chicago Cubs which would make for a nice family reunion story if the former ever roams the Cubs outfield on a regular basis. A Kiermaier addition at Wrigley Field could conceivably “cut both ways”!
Tomath7456
Kiermaier’s contract holds for three years including team option, on the other hand, Margot will be FA’d 2 years later. Considering high CF demand, Rays should trade Margot.
phillyballers
If JBJ couldn’t be traded for anything of value at the same cost… why should KK garner much trade value? This will just be a salary dump, IF they find a trade partner. I think they may just have to eat money to get anything of value in return. Not something I see them doing tho.
Stormintazz
The complexity arises finding someone dumb enough to give him $10 mill a year. $10 mill is a lot of money for a weak bat and good glove.
BobSacamano
If they’re willing to attach draft capital, DET should be all over this. I would prefer KK in center over JJ any day!
stymeedone
JaCoby Jones just needs to stay healthy. He’s a better bat, and not a slouch on defense. I see Tampa as valuing defense highly, and that is why they won’t trade Kiemeier by attaching a prospect. The team that trades for him will value his defense just as highly, or TB will keep him.
BobSacamano
I agree about JJ. He’s definitely a hustler. I know I’ve been pessimistic on him in the past. He’s just soo volatile with health and streakiness. Christin Stewart is another one I’m unsure about.
Get rid of the softball players
Derek cheater would always dive for balls he had no chance of fielding just so the announcers could say aw,just missed
ABCD
I should have hid in a cave this week.
Moneyballer
He’s such a weird player, I can make a case why having him roam centerfield for your team is a net positive but he’ll drive you crazy at the plate! If he could just be a league average hitter with some power he would be the full package and teams would line up for him. He’s just not getting it done offensively. I’d rather have a guy like Byron Buxton because he’s shown steady improvement at the dish and has yet to reach his ceiling.
Stevil
I’ve wondered if a swap between common trade partner Seattle would make sense, with Kiermaier and Haniger being the centerpieces.
Seattle needs LHHs, and though Kiermaier is a glove-first outfielder, he would take pressure off Lewis and eventually Kelenic.
Tampa could use Margot in center and Haniger in RF, or even DH when necessary.
More pieces would have to be involved, but I could see the fit.
Rsox
The Rays have Margot, Arozarena, Meadows, Phillips, Tsutsugo, and even Lowe and Brousseau to put in the OF. There is no real need for Haniger in TB. And the Mariners have the reigning AL ROY in Kyle Lewis in CF and a few Outfield prospects coming soon. It would make zero sense for the Mariners to take on Kiermaier’s contract when he doesn’t move the needle for them at all.
Stevil
And how many of those names for Tampa are as good or better than a healthy Haniger? I would argue just one.
Regarding Seattle, I’m well aware of Lewis’ status. Despite winning ROY, he struggled heavily in the second half, and though he’s perfectly capable of handling center, he’s better suited for a corner. They’re currently short a corner outfielder, and they’re RHH-heavy. Kelenic will help; Trammell isn’t that close and both Fraley and Bishop are reserves.
Kiermaier would give Seattle a legitimate center fielder and a much-needed veteran. Center isn’t a glaring need, but Kiermaier’s contract is hardly expensive, and as I already noted, other pieces would be involved, presumably one of Tampa’s middle-infielders and perhaps a Seattle outfield prospect.
You’re reading far too much into this, though. I see the fit, It’s as simple as that. I’m not anticipating anything, though we’ve learned to expect the unexpected with Dipoto.
its_happening
Probably all of Haniger is injured.
Once again, you forgot to think things through.
Rsox
Taking on almost $9 million in salary for Kiermaier does nothing for the Mariners. Again Kiermaier does not push the needle for Seattle.
Stevil
I’m sorry I wasn’t clear enough before.
By suggesting other pieces would have to be involved, I was suggesting the difference in salary would have to be accounted for with other players.
But way to miss the general point. A true LHH center fielder would be helpful, whether you think so or not.
Feel free to keep reading into this excessively, though.
Stevil
WereAll, I truly hope you can learn how to create a proper contraction and respond to comments respectfully in the new year.
A willingness to do research would be good as well.
Cheers
its_happening
“A willingness to do research”
The day you try that will be your first. Happy New Year.
its_happening
Stevil: I have a trade proposal, what do you think?
Everyone: Don’t think that trade will work
Stevil: You need to agree with me or I’ll be very upset!
Rinse and repeat.
David Herrick
This is where if the Cubs think creatively, they can trade for Kiermaier while getting prospects at the same time. The Cubs have need for more controllable young players in their system, they have $70 million until they reach the luxury tax threshold, and the Rays still need help at starting pitcher and catcher:
– Cubs send Hendricks and Contreras (is owed roughly $6-$8 million in arbitration), along with cash, let’s say $14 million (to cover Hendricks’s contract in 2021).
– Rays send Kiermaier, Yoshi Tsutsugo ($7 million), Xavier Edwards, Shane Baz, and Seth Johnson, plus maybe another pitcher. Surely the Rays don’t have spots for all those infielders and young pitchers. Rays save $11.5 million, get a great pitcher for free for one year, and get the best catcher in Rays’s history for two years at a modest cost, someone that can also DH. Cubs would be paying $14 million, plus $11.5 million for a CF, plus $7 million for a DH for one year (he can spot start at 3B I guess) = $32.5 million. Cubs get a Chone Figgins / Whit Merrifield clone (CF / 2B / spot start at SS) in Edwards, a Brailyn Marquez type pitcher in Baz, a promising young fireballer in Johnson (maybe they could get bullpen help or another young pitcher (probably can’t get Nick Bitsko but maybe Hunter Barnhart). Cubs also get awesome outfield defense. The point is this would be an opportunity to get top prospects from the best Minor League system in baseball.
I would do it if 2021 is apparently a reset year.
Baseball 1600
Lol. Look at your return for Darvish + Caratini and say this with a straight face.
David Herrick
Completely different scenarios!! Darvish two years ago was un-tradable after that first year in Chicago with 5 years and more than $100 million left on the contract. Revenue sharing will be back for 2022 probably. The Rays will have to get creative if they really want to offload Kiermaier.
There weren’t that many teams where Darvish was a good fit. But Hendricks, I’m sure the Angels, Yankees, Blue Jays, etc. have had conversations about Hendricks’ availability. For Contreras, I’m sure the teams in on Realmuto are looking at that cost – $100-plus – and are calling the Cubs about Contreras.
So take out Goss. Hendricks and Contreras for Kiermaier, Tsutsugo (who both have limited value, Kiermaier for being an expensive defensive outfielder and Tsutsugo for underperforming) and Edwards, Baz, and Johnson is more than fair.
JoeBrady
say this with a straight face.
—————————————
It would be helpful to say which team you think it favors, as opposed to simply insulting the proposal.
David Herrick
According to Baseball Trade Values, the Cubs would be sending 66 million in value above contracts, while the Rays would be sending 40 million in value above contracts (that’s with Goss included).
Take Goss out and it looks like this:
Baz – 19.6
Edwards – 18.9
Johnson – 3.6
Kiermaier – negative 9.7
Tsutsugo – negative 3.3
(Goss – 10.3)
Hendricks – 37.5
Contreras – 28.3
The Rays are loathe to trade their prospects, but this would save them $11.5 million and they get a pitcher for free for one year who is almost as good as Hendricks. If the Cubs are really in a fire sale, then they won’t care about the on-field product of outfield defense.
The Darvish trade wasn’t just about a salary dump. The author from Fangraphs wrote a piece evaluating the Cubs’ return and he’s really high on Reggie Preciado, saying he would rank him the Cubs 3rd best prospect ahead of Ed Howard, and he ranked Santana as #9 or #10 in the Cubs’s system. I’m not really upset Darvish was traded, but I wanted pitching prospects (at least one) that could contribute immediately from the Padres Weathers or Morejon. But if you look at the methodology from Baseball Trade Values, the Darvish plus Caratini return is pretty much equal in value, as years like 2018 probably drag down Darvish’s value.
Dorothy_Mantooth
Stop it. The Cubs are not trading Hendricks for that garbage. He is their Ace now and is on an affordable contract. Chicago is not trading Hendricks at all unless they get back a younger, #1 or #2 SP in return (think someone like Plesac from Cleveland, but Plesac isn’t getting traded either). The Cubs will move Bryant & even Rizzo before they look to move Hendricks.
LordD99
The Baseball Trade Values site encourages fans to construct garbage desks.
LordD99
*Deals*. A desk at least would have value.
David Herrick
Maybe the Cubs get J.J. Goss as well?
Hendricks, Contreras, and cash ($14 million) for Kiermaier, Tsutsugo, Edwards, Baz, Goss, and Johnson. I think the Rays have plenty of prospects to cover those losses in minor league players!!!
portlandrays
That’s just not how they operate the business.
Rays took a huge step back to earn prospect capital.. why would they give away premium talents?
But I think creative deal may work for both teams.
1) Cubs took a stepback for 2021
2) Rays took a stepback for 2021
3) Both teams still have hopes to make playoff so no complete rebuild
4) Kiemaier is productive but doesn’t worth ton due to tied money
5) Bryant is productive but doesn’t worth ton due to washed 2020, huge salary, injury history though still more valuable than KK
6) Rays need RH bat and Cubs need CFer
7) Darvish deal shows that Cubs are okay with quantity over quality
8) Rays have insane depth.
Kiermaier 2 yrs 25mil
Kevin Padlo (AAA 3B prospect who was in same ranking with Cronenworth)
Abizeil Ramirez (#22 ranked 20y/o SS Dominican prospect
Yonny Chirinos (solid #3 making league minimum but out for season due to Tommy John)
Tsutsugo
Bryant 1 yr 20mil
If Chirinos comes back healthy Cubs have good #3 for 3 years. Padlo will step in 3B vacancy. Lottery ticket in young Dominican SS. Kiermaier will complement Happ and Heyward in OF.
David Herrick
PortlandRays, Yeah, it’s an idea.
Addressing your points:
(1) Quantity over Quality: Preciado and Santana (from the Padres trade) actually seem to be pretty good, even though the entire industry is not in uniform agreement, simply because these guys are so young. (Placiado #3 in Cubs’ system and Santana #9 or #10 according to Fangraphs.) So I think there is some quality there. But ultimately Hoyer probably had pressure to reduce salary and the best he could get was four lottery tickets, giving the Cubs more depth. I am surprised the Cubs didn’t take Wil Myers back in the trade to improve the prospect return, but that’s probably the best they could get, and yes the emphasis was cutting salary obligations while getting some value back.
(2) I like your trade offer, as Padlo could step in next year for Bryant. But the Cubs have salary committed to Bote, but Padlo does look to be a better hitter. A permanent universal DH would help. I think if I recall correctly, Padlo is an extreme platoon guy, really good against lefties. I’d be interested in him. Cubs really need power in their system. Could platoon with Rivas next year (LH hitter in Cubs system).
(3) The SS Ramirez, I don’t really know anything about, but the Cubs are now loaded at SS. Ed Howard was their first round pick in 2020 and is ranked anywhere from #2 to # 4 best prospect in their system (depending on the site). Luis Verdugo is ranked #7 (I think) by Prospects Live (which is better than Baseball America in my opinion), although Verdugo is not listed in the Cubs top 30 prospects by MLB. Placiado and Santana are both SS’s. Kevin Made, a SS, was a big IF last year for $1.5 million, and the Cubs big IF signing this year will be a SS (Christian Hernandez, I think). All these guys are probably ranked ahead of this SS Ramirez.
(4) The Cubs need pitching. If Drew Strotman, Seth Johnson, or John Doxakis was on the deal, instead of the SS you mentioned, there’s a possibility.
(5) Where does Bryant play on the Rays? They already have Wendle and Diaz. Contreras is a better RH hitter than Bryant, as he’s had a higher OPS for years than Bryant. He both walks more and slugs more than Bryant from a more difficult position. But Contreras will cost more in prospects.
(6) Ultimately, it seems to me the Rays do not put much priority on catcher, as it’s a position that gets beaten up with a high injury probability, so my proposal wouldn’t happen, because they just don’t emphasize it as an organization.
(7) You’re right, that’s not typically how the Rays operate, but with my proposal they reduce salary by $11.5 million and get Hendricks for free in 2021. They could probably deal him in 2022 when their rotation already should look like this: Glasnow, Patino, McKay, Yarborough, and Ryan (and Flemming and Richards and …). And Hendricks in my scenario. And Contreras’s and Tsutsugo’s salaries match, and Contreras is the far better player. Point is, the Rays are at the level of absurdity with the amount of prospect capital they have. Where does Edwards play with Brujan, Franco, Adames, Lowe, Brosseau, Wendle, and Diaz already on the roster in the infield? I know, the Rays would probably make more trades, but … (next argument) …
(8) At some point in time, they need to kinda go all in to win a World Series (I’m not saying trading Patino, or Franco, or McKay, or Brujan). But how else will they convince St. Peterberg / Tampa to invest in a workable stadium for the community? In 2022, Wander Franco should be ready (he’s probably ready now, or would have been with a Minor Leagues season in 2020). Brujan should be ready, and Patino, and McKay, and Ryan. My point: where do they put all these guys? Drew Strotman looks really good. Josh Flemming has already pitched effectively at the Major Leagues, and he was barely a top-30 prospect; Flemming and Strotman could probably both start this year. With my trade proposal, I don’t think they really need Baz and Edwards. I know they’re great talents (the Cubs sure need them), but they have Goss and Doxakis (snd Johnson) in the next wave after Baz.
And the Rays have traded prospects in the past to fill holes on the Major League roster: Sanchez for Nick Anderson and Solak for Peter Fairbanks. So what I am proposing in not unprecedented, just at a larger scale than what the Rays have ever done.
Good ideas. Good exchange. Change out the SS Ramirez for a pitcher (Johnson or Strotman), and I really like the deal.
Mlb1971
Portland Rays would need to change their name to the Portland Rains, Portland Riots, Portland Weeds, Portland Hoods (for Mt. Hood) you thought I meant …., Portland Coffee Beans, ….. lol
worthington
After 30, elite CFer’s LOSE a step. One bad hammie pull away from average.
JoeBrady
I think he will be traded, because this is what TB does, TB will have to ear more salary than expected, but that won’t stop them.
Two reasons for this.
1-It is not just KK v JBJ, it is also KK v JBJ or Inciarte, as others have mentioned. I like KK, but no one is paying his salary when JBJ or Inciarte can be had considerably cheaper.
2-I’m surprised it wasn’t mentioned in the article, but Margot has to be one of the motivating factors. I like KK better, but the difference between the two is not big. In addition, they have other guys that can fill in as the #4 OF.
It won’t matter to the Rays. They’ll take a hit, but they will figure whatever they get with the $8M they save, will be better than the marginal benefit that KK supplies.
Mlb1971
Joe – I agree TB will somehow find a taker, because that’s what Tampa does, but $12 million per year for a guy who can not hit and is often injured? Tampa would have to through in a really good prospect or most GMs would just sign a cheap free who is a marginal hitter.
Rhetorical question….would it be worth it to trade KK if TB had to pay $9 million per year and add no prospect or $6 million and add an ok prospect or $3 million per year with high level prospect…. I guess it depends on the prospect.
BobSacamano
TB eating money.. doesn’t sound like their MO. I can see them trading Margot, Yandy, or Choi before KK.
When you consider the rough estimate $8m per war, his contract is far from horrible. His age, production, and term length is certainly favorable; it’s his AAV and health that’s concerning to me.
Pete'sView
This COULD be a Giants play: take on most of Kiermaier’s salary and get a top 100 prospect (a la the Zack Cozart/Wil Wilson deal with the Angels).
Steve Adams
Cozart was a complete sunk cost. Kiermaier is still valuable and still contributing to the Rays. The two are not analogous.
jorge78
Anybody getting an error message linking to the poll on Thursday early afternoon?
bucketbrew35
I would like the Phillies to make a ton of low cost bullpen moves and take a flyer on a starter like Hamels. Then they need to re-sign Realmuto, trade for Kiermaier and sign Aldreton Simmons to a 1 year deal. That would be my ideal offseason.
Rhino
I see the Astros making a play unless they can get Bradley Jr for less. They have enough on the farm and desperately need a strong defensive player in center.
Rsox
Kiermaier can’t stay healthy, has only topped 130 games played in a season once abd offensively should be a number 9 hitter in a lineup. JBJ offers more production than Kiermaier and will likely play for less money when he does sign. Kiermaier is more like Juan Lagares: elite Defense, no offense, and made of glass.
R Austen
Inter-division trade unlikely but the Jays are in need of a center fielder and they have prospects as one of the better farm systems. But they also have money so They probably would not give up a lot. However, when teams have a lot of prospects they can’t keep everyone on the 40-man. Toronto or a Houston or other good farm system would likely be willing to trade guys who are pretty good prospects but who will be out of options or soon (next year) be out of options. So Tampa would not get top prospects but they could still land solid players while shedding salary. Some teams also have a glut of players. Toronto landed Tescar Hernandez for Liriano because Houston had half a dozen outfielders ahead of Teoscar. People yell bad trade but at the time it wasn’t. Toronto has a glut of catchers – some pitchers of interest as well.
So whoever loses out on Springer and JBJ might go for Kiermaier. Springer isn’t going to have much spring in his step at 35-36 and so if the idea is to improve CF defense and the players are older it might be better for a team like the Jays to land a Kiermaier (short term)and then sign Realmuto. The Jays would have Reese McGuire to trade along with Derek Fisher etc who have yet to do much and still have enough upside to be reasonably attractive trade candidates Plus some minor league lottery tickets included. Looking at it from the Jays perspective – one big free agent doesn’t do as much as spreading the money around. OF defense was one of the worst in baseball last year if not dead last. Personally, I would not mind the Jays trading for Kiermaier and signing JBJ. Moving Hernandez to DH and using Gurriel Jr can stay in left. They would have a pretty awesome outfield defense. Combined money for all three would be about the same as Springer. Sure they would not hit as well as a Springer but it’s not like Springer is a HOF bat. The Jays can hit – they can’t field.
jakec77
Mets should have traded for Snell and taken on Kiermaier’s contract.
Cc13
Has anyone pointed out that after roughly 7,000 total votes, readers are almost exactly split on whether or not kiermaier will be traded? (It was like this, about 50-50, from when there were only 1,000 total votes onward; I’ve been keeping tabs.) This seemingly confirms the writer’s point about the complexity of the prospect, or at least indicates that he convincingly argued his point. I myself voted “No”, merely because I hope they’ll allow kk to reestablish his value this coming year and trade him before the deadline. I suppose that means they trade Brett Phillips this offseason, who some commentators want to see start the year on the long side of a platoon with Margot in center, with kk gone. This is a scenario I wouldn’t mind, provided they get a solid return for kk, but I really hope they hold off on moving kk and move Phillips this offseason instead, since he’s out of options. Ideally kk’s moved at the deadline for a good haul and then Josh Lowe is promoted to get some seasoning before taking over the everyday role in 2022, when the Rays will be making a serious run at another pennant, with the likes of Franco, brujan, patino, etc. also becoming everyday players. Or maybe brujan is the center fielder rather than Lowe.
dankrech
Blue Jays should get him for Reese McGuire. Good backup catcher which they need
bobtillman
The Rays already have 4 backup catchers…why would they want another one?
But the Jays are a good landing spot for KK; they have scads of money and lots of payroll space, and a need in CF. You can likely get the Rays to attach 2 or 3 #11-#20 ranked players from their rich systems, and only have to give up a Joe Carter bobblehead. The Rays would have to include SOME money, but not a ton.
Could work for both teams.
lowtalker1
Attached one of them slap d**k prospect with him and boom, he is gone
Bart Harley Jarvis
This dude rakes and hits bombs.
phillip beasley
Best comment of the day!
David Herrick
I could see a trade of Willson Contreras, plus cash to the Rays for Kiermaier and a prospect(s).
Contreras (plus the arbitration agreement $6.5 – $7.5 million range) for Kiermaier, SS/2B Xavier Edwards (Rays have a bunch of infielders), and LHP John Doxakis (Rays have a bunch of pitchers).
Rays get down to $40 million for their 40-man roster obligations in 2021, get Contreras for free for one year (2021), and he’d be under contract for 2022 as well when the Rays should be ready again to compete for a World Series (with a rotation in 2022 of Glasnow, Patino, Yarborough, Ryan, and MaKay, Honeywell, and … etc.) Is there a deeper organization in baseball? No.
Cubs get an impact starting SS/2B/CF ready for 2022, addressing some of their speed and contact issues (they’ve been looking for a replacement for Dexter Fowler for four years), pairing with Nico Hoerner 2B/CF, that should help. Cubs increase payroll obligations to about $154 ($20 million more with Kiermaier and Contreras both on the books for 2021 with still $55 million below the luxury tax threshold), Cubs all of a sudden have amazing outfield defensive, with Happ (LF), Heyward (RF), and Ervin for 2021 and 2022 and get LHP Doxakis, who should be an innings eater, which helps as some of the Cubs best pitching prospects have reliever risk (Marquez, Franklin, Jensen).
Rays might balk at paying prospects, but getting Kiermaier’s salary off the books and getting Contreras for free in 2021 would justify the prospect return. Cubs might balk at paying for both Contreras and Kiermaier in 2021, but that would seem an effective long-term use of the money saved by dumping Darvish. And it’s not like the Rays would resign Contreras, so the Cubs could resign him in two years.
RaysFanTL
Wish the Rays could trade their owner
David Herrick
I don’t know why they can’t fix the stadium issue. I don’t know a lot about the Tampa Bay / St. Petersburg area, but the Rays should be awesome in 2022. If they make the right moves (they can still make the playoffs in 2021), but they should be one of the favorites to win it all in 2022, crazy good team (Arozarena, Lowe, Franco, etc. and incredible pitching depth – Glasnow, Patino, McKay, Yarborough, Flemming, Ryan, Honeywell, etc.) that should be ready by 2022.
I don’t know why they can’t get funding for a downtown stadium, a la Wrigley Field, Camden Yards, Safeco. I think it’d be great for baseball if the Rays won the World Series and financial interests came together to put that team on a sustainable economic path with a better stadium situation.
jd396
There’s no way stadium/location issues can solely explain why their attendance is so low. They have one of the most consistently good teams in one of the most consistently competitive divisions despite having a miserable fraction of their top rivals’ resources, but were to believe the Rays got out-drawn in 2019 by everybody except the Marlins exclusively because it’s a pain in the butt to drive over a bridge to see a baseball game.
RaysFanTL
The Tampa bay lightning have a stadium downtown and they sell out every game. The Rays stadium is surrounded by water, old people, hipsters and transplants that don’t really care about baseball. It’s takes 45 minutes to an hour for the majority of the greater Tampa Bay Area population to drive to the stadium. It’s a crap stadium and even worse, there’s not much to do around there. There is like 1 bar that people can pregame at. The stadium location is 100% preventing this team from having a strong attendance. The Rays have great television ratings which proves people are interested and care about the team.
WiffleBall
Springer will sign with Jays and Mets will get Kiermaier. Bauer will sign with the Dodgers and Mets will turn to JA Happ.
jd396
Just offer him to the Padres, they’re taking everyone else
tigerbreak
This is where Hoyer can take some of that money saved and do a portfolio deal to split the gains between now and later.
Cubs take KK (all salary), a guy like Adames (or a guy with 3-4 yrs of control) and some younger pitching prospects.
Rays take a couple of org guys.
Of course, that won’t happen. Cousin Eddie is too busy swimming through his billions and the Cubs will probably end up offering guys like Chris Archer and Hanser Alberto minor league incentive-laden deals and call it a season.
bradthebluefish
1.7 WAR last year. Assuming 1 WAR via trade is worth $8MM. That’s roughly worth $13.6MM a year which he is just under with his salary.
bush1
That’s what was used in non-pandemic past yrs. There’s zero chance it’s close to how teams value players this off season.
seaver41
If any article is going to lead with WAR as the base of their argument – I tune it out.
LordD99
…but you tuned in enough to comment.
bush1
I’m sure the Rays do want to deal Kiermaier. Nobody will touch him unless the Rays eat at least half of that deal. Teams are being so cheap and that deal isn’t great in the first place.