Rays prospect recently Brent Honeywell underwent a staggering fourth elbow surgery since his last in-game appearance back in 2017, Marc Topkin of the Tampa Bay Times reports. The latest operation, however, was an arthroscopic procedure to alleviate some mild discomfort and is not expected to impact Honeywell’s readiness for the upcoming 2021 season. Optimistic prognosis notwithstanding, the mounting number of arm injuries for Honeywell, once touted as one of he game’s premier pitching, is increasingly troubling. Honeywell has previously undergone Tommy John surgery, had surgery to repair a fracture in his elbow and undergone an ulnar nerve decompression procedure. He’s still just 25 years old (26 in March) and has a career 2.88 ERA with 9.9 K/9 against 2.0 BB/9 in 416 professional innings.
Some more health/injury updates from around the game…
- Athletics third baseman Matt Chapman is “full speed ahead” after surgery to repair a torn labrum in his right hip ended his 2020 season prematurely, manager Bob Melvin told reporters Thursday (Twitter link via Susan Slusser of the San Francisco Chronicle). He’s expected to be a full participant in Spring Training. Chapman’s agent, Scott Boras, indicated this week that he’d likely be ready for Spring Training, but it’s all the more encouraging to hear prominent members of the A’s organization making similar declarations. Chapman belted 10 homers in 152 plate appearances this past season, but he was clearly dogged by the injury, as evidenced by a career-worst 35.5 percent strikeout rate (up from 21.9 percent in 2019).
- Cody Bellinger’s rehab from last month’s shoulder surgery is ahead of schedule, Dodgers skipper Dave Roberts said in a Zoom call with reporters Thursday (Twitter link via Jorge Castillo of the L.A. Times). At the time of the surgery, it was reported that he’d need about 10 weeks to recover, although Roberts stopped short of proclaiming Bellinger ready for Spring Training, instead merely stating that the team hoped he could be “somewhat active” early in camp. Bellinger is expected to serve as the Dodgers’ primary center fielder again in 2020, which shouldn’t come as a surprise after he was named a Gold Glove finalist in 2020.
- Free-agent left-hander Roenis Elias will throw for teams this Sunday in Texas as he looks to show that he’s put his a season-ending flexor strain behind him. The 32-year-old Elias didn’t pitch in 2020 after he opened the season on the Covid-19 list and then sustained that flexor strain when ramping back up. Sent from Seattle to D.C. at the 2019 trade deadline, Elias only pitched three innings for the Nats due to a hamstring injury. He was sharp with the Mariners from 2018-19, however, working to a 3.12 ERA and 3.84 FIP with 7.3 K/9, 3.0 BB/9 and 0.83 HR/9 in 98 innings of relief.
aint no way Honeywell is ever injury free for long enough to gain any momentum in tje Majors. the guy is under the knife every other second. him and Anderson Espinoza should form a support group.
He was perfectly healthy from 2014-2017, so your initial point isn’t true. He’s only 22 and still has got plenty of time. The Rays told everyone they’d listen to offers on Snell because prospects like Honeywell are still viewed as a future rotation pieces.
he’s nearly 26, not 22. he was probably 22 when he last played.
Ah, true. Nevermind.
He’s 25 not 22
Honeywell, McKay, McClanahan, Fleming (to a lesser extent)…all are guys who could slot in the rotation this year. Baz in a year or two. And, we know the Rays will sign/trade for an under-the-radar guy who has a good season.
But they need the depth, more than most.
2017 was three years ago so his point seems pretty valid… even the article called it troubling… because it is
Elias would be a great free agent target for the Pirates.
I was going to say same thing
I was thinking the same thing. If he pans out, he has a nice contract next year. Sign a 1 year contract with the Pirates and stay healthy. He could be squeezed into a setup role if healthy
“Recently Brent Honeywell”, who is he now? Honeyunwell?
The first paragraph is riddled with spelling and grammatical errors. So many run-on sentences too.
I think Steve needs a nap before be writes again.
In before people tell you it’s a free website and because of that you are not allowed to point out errors.
“In”?
It’s a term the kids use these days.
Time to give up on the screwball
Valenzuela was one my favorite players of my youth. Really pumped to the pitch return but you may be right. Holding slight hope he uses a bit safely. Let’s Honeywell
Man, I don’t know, @Ryu.
Hasn’t the screw ball basically just been rechristened as the “circle change”? Seems like the same pitch to me. I think all that “scroogie’s are bad for your elbow” stuff is leftover from an earlier time.
I also think it’s inaccurate.
Pitching is just really hard on one’s arm. The end.
I don’t think it really matters what pitches a guy does or does not throw. I remember when cut fastballs were supposedly leading to elbow problems. Haven’t heard that in years. Sliders, too. Yet, look at Sergio Romo. That’s about all he throws & has for years now.
Dunno.
To me, it appears this stuff is much more intricate than just eliminating a certain pitch type. I think if it were that straightforward teams would have addressed it by now.
Ducky the circle change screwball debate still goes on. Personally, a circle change and screwball are not the same. A circle change does not move much at all. The circle change uses the same delivery as a fastball but relies on the velocity difference to confuse the hitter.
A screwball takes the circle change and adds a lot of wrist action to impart that spin. It adds more moving parts to the delivery. Relies more on the movement on top of the velocity drop to confuse the hitter.
I love this one though!
You’ve instantly crystalized the debate to what it always comes down to; one rotates the wrist, the other doesn’t.
Since we’ve arrived here so quickly I’m left with no recourse but to play my ace in the hole. Felix Hernandez. That’s always refered to as a circle change. Oui?
So.
Check out some YouTube videos of him. He rotates his wrist away from the plate. He’s actually the guy (& that pitch of his certainly has movement) that initially spurred that observation for me.
Pitch design is one of my favorite “real baseball” topics, man.
As soon as I posted. I thought “someone is going to bring up King Felix”.
He uses a circle change grip, with drop, but doesn’t use velocity to deceive much at all. It’s not quite either really imo.
I can’t call that a circle change when he would routinely deliver it 92-93. His grip is interesting and maybe that coupled with him throwing it faster creates some movement? I would love to see someone go “a beautiful mind” on that pitch and break it down. But I will call it a unicorn, because I can’t refute it beyond that haha
However, the wrist movement is not as dramatic as a screwball. It’s much closer to the less pronounced wrist movement you’d see on a fastball than a more sudden, violent rotation on a screwball. I think you see that rotation carry up the forearm more in the delivery with a screwball.
Sweeet, @WarkMohlers.
You think about this stuff too, don’t you? Noted. I can absolutely dork out on this type of baseball minutiae.
This is definitely an interesting topic. Similar to; “whatever happened to the palm ball?”, “spork balls & slutters are real pitches, man”, & “wait…Greinke’s change up is sometimes thrown harder than his fast ball?…dude…no…wait…”.
Yeah, King Felix is the gold standard.
I’ll get to him in a bit.
I was on a forum & the circle change vs screw ball came up. There were 4 or 5 of us that had pitched (in my case it’s more like “pitched” tbh) at various levels. Two of the posters actually threw them, too. So we had a lot of input. Most of it pretty good.
The subject got kicked around for an evening.
Here’s my take on it.
Let’s use sliders as an example.
There’s a basic slider grip & a general arm/wrist action that defines “slider”. Yet every slider is a bio-mechanical process. So there’s a lot of human variation; height, palm width, length of fingers, forearm strength, arm slot, hand strength, arm length…lots of unique variables, uh?
So we – indeed – witness an extremely wide variety of *the same pitch*. They are all sliders – & we recognize them as such – but vary in spin rates, vertical and horizontal movement, velocity, action, etc. Modern analytics bear out what our eyes see. Sliders look & behave different from pitcher to pitcher. I believe we’re looking at the same phenomena with screw balls (or any other pitch for that matter).
That accounts for the difference from Hernandez to Pettitte to German or whomever else. So I say “just different dudes throwing the same pitch”. Same grip. Just differences in wrist action.
Fyi, no consensus was ever reached in the conversation I alluded to. What we really need is a pitcher who throws both. Or…two versions of the same pitch (my contention) to weigh in on this,man. Whichever it is.
Great analysis of how the same pitch can be thrown in so many variances. From an earlier comment though with someone mentioning the wrist pronating on screwballs and not on circle changes is actually false. Any pitch that breaks glove side is thrown with supination, meaning your thumb turns up. This is a more natural wrist motion anatomically. Fastballs, changeups, and screwballs are all thrown with pronation. So the argument that a screwball causes more damage than a changeup, albeit with more pronation, isn’t fully true as both involve the same wrist motion. So to say Honeywell getting injured often because he throws a screwball could be true, but it could have happened to anyone.
I never pitched played CF but was always throwing bullpens or the first one to be the mop up guy.
I believe Oliver Drake and Darvish have some version of a screwball but Darvish also has like 9 pitches. I agree that with different players, coaches, grips, etc the spectrum of pitch behavior under one name varies greatly.
Imagine if they tried giving unique names to every pitch that behaved somewhat uniquely vs others in its category lol? That would be another complaint be would be hailing at the MLB, but I’d find it hilarious to hear in game.
I wasn’t trying to say the wrist action was non-existent in a circle change just much less than a screwball. With a screwball you see the palm pretty much under the ball at release.
As for injuries I agree. I forget where I read it but I remember that screwball causing more injuries than other pitch types didn’t hold water. I assume they just had the few players that threw the pitch go down and some chalked it up to that pitch and it got legs.
That would be so awesome.
Let pitchers christen their own arsenals. Guys could be thematic. They could name them after girlfriends, cars, flavors, favorite players, colors. Man. MLB is missing a great marketing opportunity, man.
I’d name mine after my waterfowling boats. I’d throw a lake kayak, a pontoon, a float, an air boat, a river kayak, the peddler…
Hahah. That would be awesome. My fastball would be called the Ole’ Montana Speed Limit for obvious reasons.
That could open up some sponsorship opportunities like Patrick Corbin’s White Castle Slider.
Pitchers without throwing a screwball go down to injury. The issues for pitchers go beyond their pitch arsenal.
When Chapman hurt his hip his OPS went from .894 to .812 in 8 games before he got shut down. If he’s healthy the A’s will be contenders.
I still think Honeywell is one of the best pitchers I’ve ever seen, but man it’s hard to come back from so many elbow injuries… I hope he can at least show people a little bit of that top prospect potential when he returns as well. Hope.
Guess you haven’t seen a lot of pitchers.
Dude, I was super high on this guy a few years ago. I loved just how nasty his pitches were, and despite the injuries he had at the time, I thought he could still be one of the best starters in the game. Now he’s gone through many more injuries (sadly), and even though I still think he has good potential, now he’s just more of a redemption story to keep an eye on. Who knows, maybe he reaches that top flight potential we once saw, but it seems all too unlikely now…
It’s the never ending heartbreak associated with pitching prospects. There are so many pitchers over the year who’ve had just great stuff. But arm, shoulder, etc injuries have just hijacked a lot of promising MLB careers, man.
Never a fun thing – or whatever – to see.
Hope Honeywell is not another one of those stories. The odds appear to be accumulating against him, though.
There have been plenty of injury riddled pitchers that just kind of fall of the face of the earth, some prospects, some perennial all-stars: Mark Fidrych, Tim Lincecum, Mat Latos, Josh Johnson, Joel Zumaya, and CJ Wilson were all names I just pulled out of head now to name a few. It sucks, but it happens quite often. I hope Honeywell doesn’t fall into that group.
Yeah, man, me too.
So much promise.
You can always tell posters who played (or in the rare case here are – ya know – still playing) because they’re the guys that always hate to see a player (*any* players) get hurt.
I know there’s that whole thing about everyone being able to fan their own way. But, man, I have a really difficult time with those guys who seem to root for some players to get injured.
Gross.
Saw a lot of that stuff when Verlander went down. Now, I certainly think Verlander is a hypocritical & pompous ass. Still. Hated seeing him go down with TJS.
Ya know?
I actually like Verlander (rare, I know), but I think he’s a good… family man lol. I bet he likes to spend a lot of time with his wonderful… family.
Yeah, I essentially just to the conclusion that you’re a bad person if you cheer for injuries like that. It sounds rash, but only a jerk would cheer for anybody to go through that much pain.
Are we going to make this the new Kim thread? The Kim one has gotten awfully long lol. I have to scroll down pretty far to finally get to where I can comment.
Well, if you like Kate I’ve not much negative to say along those lines.
Maybe?
I think they’re just guys who probably never strapped ’em on & buckled ’em up. Uh? It’s just coming from a place of ignorance. Can’t lie though. They raise my hackles too, man.
I just don’t think that those kinda fellas really know how literally physically painful it can be to compete in sports. Or how awful it is to see a teammate lying on the ground writhing in agony. Guys you play alongside are a type of brother.
Ya know?
Terrible to see a brother hurting & not be able to do something about it.
Complete gut punch.
London swung through a couple days ago, btw.
Maybe?
Gotta wait till it’s pretty buried. Just respectful.
Yeah I’d post a link to this thread over there so that London wouldn’t be lost lol. It’d be like we just left him hanging out to dry.
About the injuries, it’s not just the pain of the initial blow, but for example, getting TJ. You get the surgery then once you are finally able to throw a bullpen again, it’s like you haven’t pitched since you were a highschooler. Throwing in the 70’s with bad control and virtually no break makes you feel like you have just failed when you really haven’t. Some days you wake up with joint pain and some days you feel just fine but you still only throw it the 70’s. It really screws with you mentally. It’s real tough.
I don’t speak from experience, but all of the cases that I have seen are of that bi-polar nature. Good one day bad the next. No pattern.
That would play.
That dude’s a trip. Really unique experiences & takes.
Yessir.
It’s definitely not just about the initial pain. It’s the surgery, rehab, being on the sidelines…so much. & yeah, the mental aspect of it all.
I read that Bo Jackson did something like 10K(!) hours of rehab to get back on the field.
Mercy.
Plus from a purely aesthetic point of view, these are the greatest ball players in the *world*, man. I want to *see* those guys play. Not read updates on their rehabs or whatever.
Honeywell will recover just in time for the rays to trade him
He’s 25.
Your muthas 25
Honeywell still has promise, many good pitchers peak late 20s. His injury history is a shame, but I am still hoping he can compete for a rotation spot this year. There’s a reason he was a top prospect for so long.
and for what its worth im not going to say he cant become something. the consistent injuries are just a big red flag.
Honeywell hasnt pitched in almost 3years competively.. He will be lucky to be able to reach AAA this yr.. From where i sit at He will need rehab and thats rehab without setbacks.. He will get a few innings in Single A than slowly move up base how he looks will depend on where he goes.. Honestly his best 2 options are
1. Stay in AAA all yr continue to stretch out as a SP.
2. His best choice is move to the bullpen atleast for 2021 this way he gets some MLB experiance a guy who has elbow issues prob best being a 1 inning guy for now atleast till 2022 season..
In the same interview Dave Roberts answered a question about Justin Turner rather cryptically. He made it sound like it was up to the player to decide if he wanted to come back. I thought that was the bigger story than Bellinger’s recovery from surgery.
Wasn’t the context of that pretty much like how Roberts selfishly wants Turner on his team forever, but understands that it’s ultimately Turner’s decision where he signs?
Considering Roberts isn’t even in charge of who the Dodgers sign, I kind of just viewed this as him saying Turner is great and it’s not his call. Seemed kinda like a classic non-substantive answer.
Something like that. I read his response several times trying to read between the lines. One way of interpreting it is the Dodgers already have made or soon will make him an offer. Surely returning would not be up the player if he and the Dodgers were not talking terms. In an offhanded way I think Roberts was saying that they are talking but Turner is also listening offers from other teams.
Don’t let your kids throw a screwball! Was Honeywell’s signature pitch. Doubt he throws it anymore.
Honeywell is a WC for the Rays at the moment. They decided not to pitch him at all this past shortened season to allow him more time to heal up. If Honeywell can contribute some innings this upcoming season & stay healthy then going forward the Rays gain another depth piece with upside.
Would be a nice pickup for Baltimore. Could be a starter/long reliever
Honeywell sounds like a future Dodgers signing, given Friedman’s penchant for signing guys coming off TJ surgery.
“Bellinger is expected to serve as the Dodgers’ primary center fielder again in 2020,”
2020?