Some news and notes from around the league:
- The Indians are planning to trade Francisco Lindor this offseason, but there’s nothing imminent on that front. A Lindor trade isn’t going to happen quickly, hears Jon Morosi of MLB Network (Twitter link). Morosi reiterates that Lindor will likely be on the move this winter, but Cleveland is expected to take their time as they explore the market. MLBTR’s Connor Byrne recently examined potential fits on that front.
- The White Sox figure to be aggressive buyers this offseason, feels Buster Olney of ESPN. That’s not especially surprising. Chicago emerged from their rebuild to make the expanded playoffs in 2020. They then hired Tony La Russa as manager, reaffirming that the club is squarely in a contention mindset. The White Sox could stand to augment the rotation and address the corner outfield, where Nomar Mazara underwhelmed and looks like a non-tender candidate.
- Olney also notes it remains “a safe bet” the universal designated hitter will wind up in place for 2021. Introducing the DH in the National League, like all of 2020’s COVID-inspired rule changes, was a one-year measure. MLB and the MLB Players Association would need to come to a new agreement to put the NL DH in play for 2021, but that seems likely “unless the MLB and players’ union animus erupts to the point of complete dysfunction,” Olney argues. Regardless of the DH’s status next season, it’s widely expected the universal DH will become a permanent feature in the next collective bargaining agreement, which will need to be negotiated next offseason.
“So you’re telling me there’s a chance.”
How about getting rid of dh in both leagues Forever! Just as crazy as everything else going on.
Manfred likes the DH
Players like the DH. That’s 1 extra job per team
Well, no, since there’s no added roster spot for a DH.
Partially true. Agreed, it’s not an additional roster spot, but a player can be paid millions to serve as a DH. Meanwhile there are very few pitchers that are getting paid for their hitting abilities. In other words, it’s a chance for teams, particularly those with high payrolls, to spend more money on their roster for jobs that previously weren’t available.
How about we allow teams 5 DHs they can spread around to all the light hitters who play great defence for the team. Then just reduce the batting lineup to 5 players instead of 9.
The union would always be in favor of adding new jobs at the major league level.
You would think. But friend thought the same thing. Then he started asking a few GMs and owners. He said I was right.
Seriously, i ask a question, if it’s a good question, he texts a GM or an owner and in no time I have an answer.
It’s now a negotiation tactic. The Players know the owners want it, so they are not going to give it. Some pork has to be included in the rule change.
cmon man. i was really hoping they wouldnt take the DH. i dont see the real point of it from the perspective of the PA.
Aging veteran hitters now will have an extra shot at a job on half the teams.
Why are we rewarding guys who don’t put in the work to remain defensively viable?
@njbirdsfan- Why make this about work ethic? Players get hurt and their bodies break down. If you’re opposed to the idea because you want players to play offense and defense, fine. But don’t make this an indictment of their character.
Why are we rewarding guys who get leg injuries during their careers? If a veteran player can’t play as well as he used to because of chronic pain, then he should get out of here! I don’t care if he can still hit .300 with 30 HR!
Why are we rewarding guys who age? If a player is playing worse because of his age he should just quit while he’s ahead! I don’t care if he can still hit .300 with 30 HR!
Bodies breakdown. You’re not as fast and athletic at 50 than you were at 20. Now imagine the strain you’re putting on your body as a professional athlete. It’s not Albert Pujols’ fault he’s had constant foot surgeries and is 40 years old.
It’s just more unserious, nonsensical ramblings coming from the anti-DH weirdos.
They literally have no logical argument to justify their stance, so they flail their arms hoping they’ll hit something in the process.
I’ll give him credit, maligning the character of people by questioning their work ethic is a new one when it comes to arguing against the DH. It’s ridiculous and pathetic, but at least it’s kind of novel.
There is a logical argument against the DH, it just isn’t that nonsense
Unless you’re a greedy owner whose argument is “I don’t want to have to pay another player”, I strongly doubt there’s a logical argument against the DH that also takes into account what is good for the game going forward.
Literally every argument against the DH dismisses what is pragmatic and good for baseball in the present in exchange for upholding silly, dated traditions, utopian principles, and unserious loves for banal substitutions.
There’s one argument I could see: considering the bleak financial future of the game, and the fact that teams just terminated hundreds of employees, adding another starter on NL teams would require teams to pay more players, and it requires them to do so in the midst of firing a bunch of people. It’s insensitive.
But that’ll be moot the moment they sign someone like Trevor Bauer to a mega-contract.
So there’s not really a serious, pragmatic or logical argument against the DH. It’s baffling how anyone still believes that the DH is bad for baseball.
But based on the state of this country, I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
You can spin it however you want, but preferring no-DH is a legitimate point of view. If there’s anything wrong with the state of this country right now it’s folks doing what you’re doing right now: mistaking their own opinions as facts and insisting as such.
DH is obviously needed because watching most pitchers try to hit, really sucks.
I must agree with Cosmodeus. There is no right or wrong. It is all just opinion. I myself am now pro DH. So it seems I personally disagree with Cosmodeus on that. But I also understand that Abner Doubleday did not exactly bring the rules of baseball down from a mountain carved on stone tablets. The game was made up.
Veteran hitters will be a nice service time manipulation excuse.
How about no DH and the pitcher is skipped for an out. I do enjoy the strategy incorporated but hate watching most pitchers hit. There is also the extra chance of an AL pitcher hitting in an NL park and the risk of injury. Mostly because he hasn’t hit in forever. I truly don’t care what the NL does but if they don’t have the DH make them play with a DH in NL crossover games and no DH in AL games.
15 more roster spots available, prolonging careers of veterans who still have decent hitting skills but diminished defensive skills..
But it’s not 15 roster spots. By doing that, you’re taking away a spot from a utility play or pitcher that would be there otherwise
But making less than the veteran DH. It moves from 15 jobs to 15 high paying jobs.
Not if you’re a good team who uses the DH to rotate your hitters
You don’t *have* to have one DH
Then you just have to raise the minimum wage and stop discriminating against all of the younger players with student loans. It’s not fair.
It adds about 12-15 million in payroll to a lot of teams filling the DH with a 35 year old who doesn’t play the field anymore.
It also probably blocks younger players who teams prefer to keep playing on defense in aaa.
Thanks Morosi! I didn’t know that Chernoff and Antonetti are cautious and thorough(insert sarcasm as needed). They’ll field all offers, compare them, and then give teams the opportunity to bid against each other. I was hoping an article about Lindor would have a bit more substance, but maybe my expectations are a little too high.
Morosi is definitely a Captain Obvious. And I wouldn’t put much stock in Olney’s assertion that there will a universal DH in 2021. This is the same guy that said there would be no baseball in 2020.
good one, badfinger
White Sox news is NO news either.
Waste of space.
I really hope the DH stays in the N.L; it gives so many more players better opportunities to succeed in the league into their late 30’s.
As for Lindor, if the Mets get him (which was mentioned in the tweet), I see them going after Springer or Realmuto as well. If Cohen wants Lindor, he’s gonna want support for that. I see a lot of big bats in the Mets future. I’d like to see them target guys like Bauer, Lynn, and Morton, but if they can boost up that lineup it would help a ton because… run support.
This is why I like expanded DH. Keeps some fun all-hit, no glove vets more involved in the game.
I say Mets get Lindor and Plesac for a package including Nimmo, JD Davis, and Rosario as well as some top 20 prospects and they also sign Springer
I have no idea how people keep thinking that they can trade for Lindor AND Plesac. Plesac is not for sale! Even if he was, he would be far, far more expensive than Lindor considering he still has 5 years of control.
do you have any insight as to whether Civale could be available in the deal? I don’t know how he’s viewed by the Indians org (I’m assuming not as favorably as Plesac)
Civale is viewed as a fighter/bulldog type MOR to BOR SP.. His command and control surpass his stuff, but, not by much. Like all Indians, the right deal makes him available.. CLEFO has a valuation method for their guys.. If someone offers that value..the deal goes forward..if it’s not..then, like the Padres were told at the deadline last year, they were “out” as the offer wasn’t sufficient. Of course, the Padres returned with an upped offer and closed the deal..
Civale would be a loss to the Indians..but, one they could absorb if they were to coble together a return of a ML ready or near ML ready OF’er / catcher.. This, of course would include, possibly, other pieces .
Thoughts?
Lol this guy, Nimmo Davis and Rosario might buy them….yu chang and adam plutko
Plesac is likely not available, but Carrasco IS available.
I am not sure that Carrasco is available. After cutting Santana, Hand, and trading Lindor. the Indians will need a veteran to show the Indian way to the younger players.
He is gone!
No brainer, more jobs for hitters and protecting your pitchers all at the same time.
Tradition is a great thing when it doesn’t get in the way of common sense.
In my eyes this should have happened years ago.
It’s a sport. Injuries happen unfortunately, but it’s the nature of the game. Why should pitchers be a special protected class?
Pitchers aren’t specially protected. The argument is just that since pitching is a very hard job that causes a lot of injuries, pitchers should be able to focus their efforts on pitching and not on hitting.
I think of it more that pitching and hitting are both highly specialized skills and the likelihood of one player possessing both is small. That, plus the pitchers don’t work on hitting.
Why should they be injured doing something you’re not paying them to do, you’re forced?
Who doesn’t miss your favorite team having a starter strain his hamstring a week before the playoffs running out a bunt!?
This is like saying DH’s have to pitch 75 innings a year, full bore, and if they blow their elbow out OMG HOWD THAT HAPPEN? Oh well sports
Seems logical Appa
Laughing@You , actually it’s nothing at all like having the DH pitch. All position players used to pitch in seasons past? I don’t think so.
Has anyone actually done a data dive to see if pitchers were injured significantly more in the National League?
Probably not, these types conclusions are most often shouted without actual evidence
The conversation can’t be about simply “injuries”, but rather, injuries specifically attributed to batting/running.
Considering that, it’s probably not going to take a genius to know that there are more pitchers injured from batting/running in the NL versus the Al, based simply on the opportunity. AL pitchers rarely go to the plate. NL pitchers do it every start. So naturally, they’ll have a greater chance at getting hurt than AL pitchers.
It’s not like AL pitchers never get hurt from hitting/running. There are several notorious cases of AL pitchers getting hurt while running the bases: Chien-Ming Wang, Yordano Ventura, Steven Wright, Fausto Carmona, etc.
But the NL injuries far outweigh the AL injuries. By a lot. And most of these injuries could be avoided with the presence of the DH.
The fact is, we cannot and should not expect pitchers—whose job is already difficult as hell and requires a tremendous amount of training—to be passable MLB hitters. It already takes a tremendous amount of training and practice to hit the ball in the majors. So asking pitchers to be able to do both is not only ridiculous, but it puts them at a much greater risk of injury.
Seriously, there’s nothing worse than watching a pitcher get injured doing something they simply don’t have the time to practice doing. It’s actually dangerous to these athletes to ask them to both pitch and hit, and considering the eight other hitters in the lineup aren’t subjecting themselves to the same risk factors, or even the same chance at getting injured, it’s patently unfair to ask them to uphold some silly utopian dream of having every fielder hit.
Uh, let me say two words: Shohei Otani.
Something done for 170 years in the sport isn’t a utopian dream. Asking players to be what the sport dictates that they be and paying them ungodly sums of money in return is not in any way unfair. Next we will have a DH for the catcher because it’s not fair that they suffer the wear and tear behind the plate. Honestly I feel more sympathy for them anyway!
SF: you say, “not going to take a genius to know that that there are more pitchers injured… in the NL… based on opportunity.” In saying that you prove my point. You base your ideas on assumption, not actual research or evidence.
LOL. Using ellipses to conveniently ignore the part where I said, “pitchers injured from batting/running” is comical, and pathetic. You intentionally held that part out knowing you couldn’t actually contend with the argument.
Seriously, in 2019 alone, NL pitchers had 4850 plate appearances, the AL had 323. That’s 6% of the NL’s total.
So based solely on that alone, which league do you think has more pitchers getting injured due to batting/running?
This isn’t an “assumption”, it’s statistical probability. NL pitchers going to the plate at a rate of 15:1 are going to have a greater chance at getting hurt. This isn’t rocket science, it’s basic statistics.
If someone wants to waste their time and explore every pitching injury over the last decade, I’d bet dollars to donuts the NL has more pitchers getting hurt FROM BATTING & RUNNING than the AL. I don’t think that’s a crazy premise. And it certainly doesn’t take a genius to understand it.
Really hoping the White Sox are aggressive this offseason. Not stupid, like they were with the La Russa hire, but they definitely need an upgrade at RF, could use one at SP, and even look into one at DH, since there’s no guarantee Vaughn will be ready at any point next year. Not a lot of holes on this club, but where there are holes, they’re pretty big.
Josh Reddick is available for RF.
Time will tell if They were stupid with the la Russia hire. On paper he’s one of the best managers in the history of the game. Just better hope there are Dave Stewarts, Mark McGuires, David Freeses, Albert Pujols, Jose Cansecos and Harold Baines in the dugout instead of Scott Rolens
The White Sox should sign Bauer. Him and Giolito can be co-aces in that rotation, slides back Dallas to the number 3, and lets Cease, Kopech, Dunning, Lopez, etc battle it out for 4-5. La Russa has managed a bunch of unique personalities (Ricky, Canseco, Dave Henderson, etc). Their core is locked up in cheap, looking to be club friendly extensions ( Moncada, Anderson, Robert, Jimenez) so they have payroll flexibility, Hahn missed out on Machado and Cole so he is going to be eager to sign Bauer to a 5 Year $130ish million deal.
@Clayton, I’d like that, but I honestly feel RF is the bigger hole. Cease can improve and, even if he doesn’t, he was better than Mazara. Plus, I don’t know if Bauer would come to an organization historically behind the curve from an analytics standpoint.
Clayton, I’m guessing that you don’t live near Chicago and aren’t familiar with Jerry Reinsdorf’s history with free agent bidding style. So, here it is:
If Jerry bids on a big name free agent, it’s for one of two reasons. 1) Jerry is just trying to ‘hype’ his team, for the upcoming season, or 2) Jerry thinks there’s a chance he can get somebody on a huge discount. Trust me. This style goes all the way back to Barry Bonds.
And even then, Jerry would only get involved say, with Trevor Bauer – if he can somehow get the taxpayers to foot the bill.
He payed Albert Belle bigly and got nothing basically. That might have a bit to do with his approach.
Jerry wanted Bonds to hit behind Frank Thomas, but Thomas insisted that he get Albert Belle instead.
Bauer won’t sign a 5 year deal.
At least, not for that “chump change”!
Man, gotta be a great time to be a Good Sox fan. They absolutely seem like a team that could really benefit from this off-season.
They could easily plug their RF gap & then just be opportunistic. There aren’t a whole lot of upper tier guys on the market this winter. But, as far as I can tell there are ~ 50(!) *more* free agents available than there was at this same point last year. With – it seems – daily multiple additions.
It’s a very deep class.
I firmly believe Chicago will jump Cleveland this year & the Twins better stay aggressive upgrading their roster because this is an up and coming team.
Sox have enough talented hitters, even with the probable loss of Mc Cann to rotate existing talent through the DH spot, imo. Eloy Jiminez could DH 20-30 games a year for example and they may be forced to use Moncada there to rest him; he was still struggling with the after effects of Covid.. Add in Vaughn at some point and possibly Micker Adolfo and I think the White Sox are covered.
Micker Adolfo isn’t going to contribute to the White Sox. He’s barely played above AA ball and is completely out of options. He’ll be put on waivers the minute he’s not on the MLB roster at the beginning of the season. And someone will undoubtedly claim him.
It’s not much different than Luis Basabe: Rick Hahn let him waste away in the minors and now, he’s out of options. The Giants will most likely give him the same treatment as Adolfo: not put him on the roster and let someone claim him.
Simply put: if you’re expecting Micker Adolfo to play for the White Sox in 2020, go ahead and change your expectations.
Basabe hasnt really hit at any level in th minors, I hoped he would deveop under the Sox and I thought he was the hidden gem in the Sale trade but he showed no real improvement. Losing him was not a big deal
Notice I did say possibly, not that he will or that’s its even probable he’ll make the ML roster.. At this juncture, he’s the best long term option in RF and if the White Sox make a move to fill the obvious hole then the possibility decreases even moreso.
Lighten up dude, or maybe switch to Nescafe?
I’d love to see them land Springer, Odorizzi and Cruz to fill those three spots. I don’t think they’d spend big on Bauer, but I do think they’d break the bank a little for the right field upgrade and the other two have enough drawbacks (lost season and age respectively) to make their contracts more reasonable, It’s a nice mix of big money, small money and taking two pieces away from the Twins. The last part is obviously the least important, but it doesn’t hurt.
The Sox will need a closer as well with Colome going to free agency. They could either retain him, which isn’t particularly exciting, or go for Hendricks. I’d be fine either way tbh.
I was always against the DH—even in the AL. But now I’ve gotten sick of pitchers who can’t even pretend to put up a quality AB. Let’s make it universal in 2021.
Always wanted the NL to stay the way it was. In 2018 my opinion changed and I’ve been for the DH in the NL ever since. I think it helps provide more competitive baseball especially come the WS. It takes away from some of the strategy, but so does the three batter minimum. With the rule changes that have already happened I cannot see why MLBPA wouldn’t want another spot for batters cause after all offense sells tickets, pitching and defense win championships.
There’s more strategy with the 3 batter minimum. Now the managers have to look at more than one hitter. They have to plan ahead. If the guy he brings in is failing with his 3 hitters, he has to look at who matches up best against the 4th and 5th hitters coming up.
I can understand the visceral negativity to the DH, but you’ll see it doesn’t add more strategy. As I’ve said, the double switch is about as complex as a game of tic-tac-toe and starting pitchers are taken out more of a result of the score than their effectiveness.
You will see the 8th hitter will have a lot more value. You will see It will be more important to have a multi-faceted leadoff hitter.
I’ve been a fan since the 60s. The only thing I miss about pitchers hitting is the novelty of a pitcher actually getting a hit.
The double switch is done out of necessity, not strategy. It’s just a procedural move that moves players around, and takes very little mental energy to pull it off. It’s literally just making sure the pitcher slot doesn’t come up the next inning.
And let’s be honest, anyone telling you that they enjoy procedural 7th inning substitutions is lying to you. They don’t actually care about the double switch. No one goes to a ball game hoping to see some really good substitutions!
We go to the game hoping to see good baseball. And hint: watching the 8th hitter get walked just so the pitcher can strike out isn’t good baseball.
I do in fact enjoy substitutions in the NL game. They add drama. I appreciate you implying that I’m a liar though, since we all MUST view the game thru the same lens in your eyes, I guess?
The double switch is a lot like “castled” in the game chess. The move itself makes no one a liar, but it will swap a position player with the pitchers spot in the lineup which could be the difference in a hit and the game changing or not… But it seems here soon this argument will be null and void so get in your calling each other a LIAR over it while you still can.
Wut?
I’m not saying the move makes someone a liar. I’m saying that people who say they actually enjoy a banal, procedural substitution are liars.
And trying to use the double switch as a reason to avoid the designated hitter is such a farcical cry that no one takes seriously.
Nothing like the “castled” in Chess, To Castle or not to castle is a strategic choice. Mr Giants is right, their isn’t any strategy with the double switch.
And now with 13 RPs and the way pens are used, the double switch is not nearly as common as it use to be. .
“ We go to the game hoping to see good baseball. And hint: watching the 8th hitter get walked just so the pitcher can strike out isn’t good baseball.”
Who are you to declare what’s “good baseball”?
I’m a proponent of installing the DH in the NL, but you’re statement seems a little arrogant.
How is it good baseball to watch good hitters get walked just so we can see automatic outs?
It doesn’t even take strategy or intelligence to walk the #8 hitter in order to face the pitcher. It’s just bad baseball. It kills rallies, it relieves the pitcher of actually having to pitch well in order to avoid outs.
In what world is having the pitcher hit (or I should say “try to hit”) good for baseball? It’s pathetically terrible and baseball needs to wisen up and end the nonsense.
It’s not arrogant to look at something that makes zero sense and call it out.
It takes strategy when it’s the 6th inning, the pitcher is rolling, and the manager has to decide to take out a hot pitcher or not. To say there is no strategy to it is asinine
That’s usually determined by pitch counts nowadays.
I agree and while Giants402 makes some valid points, teams aren’t trying to put on a show for fans. They want to win as much as we want them to but they obviously have to deploy certain strategies as the game goes on.
It’s entertainment for us but competition for them.
Of course. It’s why they play the games.
But people who say that the double switch provides entertainment value, and thus, we shouldn’t implement the universal DH accordingly aren’t making a serious argument.
Which is in itself stupid. Proven in this year’s Series.
Dude, you’re entitled to your own opinions, but you don’t get to make up your own set of facts to support them. You don’t get to say what other people enjoy or what they find entertaining. You don’t. We don’t all view the game the same as you. If someone enjoys the double switch, it’s a valid argument. To say otherwise comes off rather arrogant.
To say you find entertainment in banal, 7th inning substitutions, and therefore, the NL shouldn’t adopt the DH isn’t a serious argument.
Even if it’s true that someone finds these moves entertaining (they don’t), they are by far the minority. And demanding that baseball caters to your ridiculous love for a substitution by not doing what’s obviously right for the game going forward isn’t just silly, it’s selfish.
Cookmeister, I said it’s more of a product of the score than the effectiveness of a pitcher. That’s absolutely correct.
I’m all for the universal DH, watching pitchers hit was pitiful
There are more than a few position players that can’t hit, too. What exactly is the difference?
In 2019, pitchers hit for a .128/.160./.162 slash line. They had a -18 wRC+ (yes, that’s a negative)
The SECOND WORST position was catcher, where they hit for a .236/.308/.405 slash line and a wRC+ of 85.
For comparison sake, Juan Soto hit .351/.490/.695 this year, with a 200 wRC+. Asdrubal Cabrera hit .242/..305/.447 and a wRC+ of 95.
So the difference between catchers and pitchers is the difference between Juan Soto and Asdrubal Cabrera.
Or, to put it simply: it’s a HUGE difference.
The rules don’t allow DH for position players. THAT’S the difference.
Actually, the DH can substitute for any position on the field. I have seen games with a pitcher who hits fairly well have a DH for a weak-hitting infielder.
That is entirely incorrect at all levels, high school through mlb. The only position player that can be DHd for is the pitcher.
Now you can pull the DH putting him on the field, like the Dodgers in the playoffs, or have a DH move to the mound keeping the DH intact. But those examples are few and far between. At the youth level the rules may be wonky. But once you hit the high school level the rule is standard, P only. Unlike softball where there is the interesting Flex and DP.
Yet. I watched a documentary about the evolution of football last night. They all played offense and defense, too; until they didn’t.
No the DH can only be used the Pitcher at least in MLB. it’s in the rules and one of many things i don’t like about the DH rule as curetnly written.
Man, I don’t want the stupid universal DH. I hate it. If you’re a pitcher, learn to hit. If you’re a hitter and can’t play the field anymore, retire. At what point do they just specialize everything?! Let’s have DFs- Designated Fielders. It’s no more absurd.
I agree.
The whole point of baseball (and I guess other sports) is the tradeoffs you have to make.
Is a guy’s bat good enough to risk sticking him in the field, or not, and vice versa with defensive players who can’t hit, but you live with it because he saves you runs with the glove.
The DH is a lazy fix to a non problem.
We don’t employ this logic anywhere else.
“Hey Frank, we know you’re mostly a fry cook, and we know you can’t count worth crap… but we demand everyone runs the cash register, and if we lose a crap-ton of money because you give out wrong change, then so be it! We’ve got principles to keep!”
No one does that. They specialize it by not letting Frank do the thing he’s terrible at doing. The anti-DH folks are simply people who want to hold onto a regressive and stupid principled stance without thinking about the negative ramifications of said stance.
There’s nothing wrong with specializing baseball. It’s better for the game that pitchers don’t get out automatically.
Every sport is becoming increasingly specialized. And asking pitchers to both fine tune the snot out of their pitches AND also learn to hit is simply not going to happen. Teams aren’t paying pitchers 30M to risk getting hurt trying to hit the baseball. Period.
I don’t think pitchers should hit and I agree with the universal DH. But this has to be the worst analogy I’ve ever heard.
I don’t think pitchers should hit and I agree with the universal DH. But this has to be the worst analogy I’ve ever heard. I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul.
My goodness, you couldn’t even figure out the edit button, so you posted the same silly comment twice, trying to pull off a Billy Madison quote.
And worse, you think it was effective.
No, the analogy works. It works because the folks who argue that “baseball shouldn’t be specialized” have zero justification for this argument besides a stupid principle that has nothing but negative effects on the game. We don’t ask people to do things they are terrible at in any other arena, so why is baseball different?
The “pitchers should practice hitting” argument is utopian hogwash.. And it’s inconsistent, because pitchers already pitch and field. They are already doing two tasks in baseball.
None of the other positions are expected to pitch. We don’t care that they aren’t asked to pitch. They do two tasks: hit and field.
But the anti-DH weirdos want to watch pathetically terrible hitters try to hit the ball all so they can uphold their silly, unfounded principle.
No, your analogy doesn’t work. It doesn’t work at all, in fact. You know why Frank the fry cook in your story doesn’t work the register? I’ll give you a hint: cashier and cook are seperate jobs! It doesn’t have anything to do with Frank being bad at something so let’s make sure he never has to do it. If they were the same job, and Frank couldn’t count, Frank would be fired for not being able to do the job. An employer doesn’t create a whole new position because an employee is bad at one aspect of his job anywhere I’ve ever worked.
What are Pitchers? Here’s another hint: they’re not professional pitchers, they’re professional baseball players. There are three facets to the game- catch, throw and hit. Before you say shortstops don’t pitch, no they don’t. They still have to make accurate throws though.
Geez, for starters, it’s a made up story. I MADE IT UP. And here you are, parsing a made-up story used for an analogy to try and prove a point. Somehow, you know Frank (who I made up) and everything about his job. Don’t forget, Frank is made up. He doesn’t exist.
In the made-up story, the argument is made that everyone in the made-up restaurant does the same task: running the register. The made-up boss carried this expectation. So, thus, it had to be upheld, consequences be damned.
I can’t believe we’re trying to break down a made-up story, but I’m not sensing that the anti-DH folks carry a great deal of intellect, so I guess I’m not really *that* surprised.
The point to all of this is: pitchers are pitchers. They are one unique facet to the game of baseball, and their position is unlike the others. There’s even an entire section in the rule book designed for ONE of the NINE starters on the field. To suggest they aren’t different from the other players doesn’t even understand how the game of baseball works.
They absolutely are professional pitchers. Why? Because they literally don’t focus on anything other than pitching. MLB teams, even National League teams—whose pitchers are forced to hit—don’t even attempt to develop their pitchers into decent hitters. They understand pitching at the professional level is insanely difficult and requires years of mastering the craft, as does hitting. Expecting pitchers to be able to do both simply is not going to happen.
And the “they’re not professional pitchers, they’re professional baseball players.” Do you argue against football making separate positions? I mean, Brian Urlacher should have been expected to throw the football, right? After all, he wasn’t a professional linebacker, he was a professional football player.
And finally, you say, “Before you say shortstops don’t pitch, no they don’t. They still have to make accurate throws though.”
Talk about two totally unrelated things. Derek Jeter making throws to 1B is not the same thing as Clayton Kershaw mastering his curveball. It doesn’t require anywhere near the time, and to suggest these two things are similar either reveals that you’re stupid or that you think we’re stupid.
I’ll let you pick which is worse.
I understand Frank is made up, as was the story. The irony is you made that story up to support your opinion, but now I’m parsing a story to prove a point? Ha ha. Ok…
Are pitchers not part of the MLBPA? Yes or no?
Do you think if asked ANY professional baseball pitcher would say no, I’m not a player, I’m a professional pitcher?
And no, I wouldn’t expect Brian Urlacher to throw a pass any more than I’d expect Mike Trout to put on Catchers gear. Do you suppose Kickers and Punters should be allowed to have designated tacklers though so they don’t have to do it? They’re often not good at it.
My last point about SS making throws to 1B wasn’t meant to directly compare the two actions, but just as a general point that pitchers aren’t magical unicorns because they throw baseballs. The processes are obviously different. I don’t know why every other position on the field though is expected to hit well while putting in their work in other areas; but for some in the pro-DH crowd we don’t dare want to make our pitchers do that.
“I don’t know why every other position on the field though is expected to hit well while putting in their work in other areas; but for some in the pro-DH crowd we don’t dare want to make our pitchers do that.”
Probably because pitching already takes an insane amount of time and energy, that asking pitchers to also be passably decent hitters is not going to happen.
There’s a strong reason NL teams don’t have their pitchers practice hitting. And there’s a strong reason pitchers don’t hit in the minors: pitching is already insanely challenging, and it’s obvious that managers and player development folks don’t want them doing so.
It’s the regressive owners who are cheapskates and don’t want to pay another salary who don’t want the DH.
Congrats on siding with the greedy, rich guys. I’m sure they’ll continue to do wonderful charity for the folks in the Appalachians!
Two completely different skill sets. It’s like asking a marathon runner to be a sprinter.
Every other position in baseball requires a baseball player… However a pitcher is not a baseball player. Two completely different skill sets.
And by the way… you are 100% wrong about the owners not wanting a DH. The owners have wanted a DH for a long time. It’s a common misconception.
So why aren’t we then having Catchers skip batting practice, too? Catching takes an extreme amount of time and energy as well. They probably take more of a beating than Pitchers do?
Of all fanbases, you being a Giants fan should no that some pitchers CAN hit. Madison Bumgarner wouldn’t win a batting title but he has 19 career HRs. If you average his stats out over 162 on baseball reference you get:
.177 average
11 HR
.228 OBP
.303 SLG%
Jeff Mathis has caught in the ML for 16 years. His 162 average:
.194 average
09 HR
.253 OBP
.300 SLG%
The bat is secondary for both. Mathis is there for his work behind the plate, Bumgarner to get the ball to it. Why should one hit and not the other? What seperates them besides how they grip a baseball?
Oh, and as Macstrut said owners are not anti-DH to my knowledge. It doesn’t impact their payroll at all. They might be anti extra roster spot, but 25 guys are 25 guys no matter how you deploy them. Good try, though.
So you managed to pick one of the best hitting pitchers and compare him to one of the worst hitting catchers?
It’s pretty evident now that you’re so desperate to hold onto your archaic and utopian view of anti-DH that you’ll begin to say just about anything. It also says a lot about your ability to defend the argument.
Compare Buster Posey to Madison Bumgarner, and the results will be tremendously different.
When your lousy argument only allows you to compare one of the best to one of the worst, it’s probably not a very good argument, just a helpful tip.
Posey? Ha ha… Okay, let’s compare maybe the best hitting Catcher of this generation to a pitcher. Right. Sure.
Plenty of poor hitting Catchers in the league. Gomes now. Maldonado. Zunino. John Ryan Murphy. Leon. Ianetta. I picked Mathis because he stood out for his longevity in spite of his awfulness.
You enjoy pinball baseball though, I totally get it. You’re right because you said so, because *you* feel it’s what’s best for the game. Sounds rather utopian itself, no?
No one goes with a pitcher because he can hit. Teams do care about catchers that can hit.
Pitchers are not baseball players. They have a completely different skill set.
Mathis has gotten 300 PAs once. His wRC+ lifetime is 46.
The best hitting team’s pitchers in 2019 had a wRC+ of 15. Only three had a wRC+ above zero.
From 2010 to 2019 no team’s pitchers had a wRC+ above zero.
Imagine saying this about another sport. Why don’t we teach the defensive linemen to be wide recievers? They shouldn’t be specialized to just the defensive line.
Please bring the universal DH back
At the beginning of the season universal DH and player on 2B in extra innings were the 2 that I was most opposed to. Now I am perfect fine with universal DH, but still strongly opposed to player on 2B in extra innings and all of the other goofy rules Rob Manfred is trying to implement.
Pitchers can’t hit because except in rare circumstances in the minors they never pick up a bat.
So you’re asking guys to hit after years of not having to thanks to the DH, against the best pitchers in the world, and then blame the players.
My preference is the DH never existed, because baseball is the only sport that says it’s ok if you can no longer play half the game, we’ll just make up a position instead.
Except, you know, in the NFL where players specialize in either offense or defense and only play half the game..
And then they made up positions like kicker and punter who are more specialized than anything in baseball. In fact kicking is so specialized it’s like a mini game within the larger game that looks almost nothing like the rest of the game, with a separate set of rules for how a team can line up against it…
And volleyball has a libero.
Yeah, I’ve been thinking that the White Sox should go get Bauer. It would be a big improvement to an already good team. I think Bauer would make them a legit World Series contender.
I rather see an extra roster spot to 27 than the DH this will help more the players. Most series are 3 games so No 4 and No 5 starters really don’t count on the rosters for any club.
Yasiel Puig is available
Time for Puig to retire.
No team wants him in their dugout.
Baseball is a game where everyone needs to wear a glove. Take away the DH in both leagues
MLB is cutting off its nose to spite its face. No fans would be lost by not adding the DH to the NL, but the amount of “traditionalist” fans that will be lost with the addition will be much greater than fans gained by implementing the universal DH. No younger viewers are going to start watching baseball because the NL has the DH, games are 5 minutes shorter, or any of the other poor ideas Manfred and company or the MLBPA are coming up with. There needs to be focus on more fan interaction & affordability of games for families and the current fans’ children & grand-children will keep coming back. Stop catering to non-fans with unwanted ideas and cater to the current fans.
“the amount of “traditionalist” fans that will be lost with the addition will be much greater than fans gained by implementing the universal DH”
So MLB should continue to let the woefully unserious dolts and the crotchety 80-year-olds hold the game hostage just to avoid losing them?
It’s mind-boggling how ridiculous it is to allow pitchers, who for decades have proven they can’t hit the ball in any capacity, to take at-bats in the game and ban the DH for 50% of the teams.
It’s beyond stupid to have a rule that only 50% of the league is expected to follow.
It’s beyond stupid to let inferior baseball exist just to appease mindless traditionalists.
The MLB needs to rip off the band-aid, tell these guys to get lost and move on with better baseball.
CLEARLY you’re not a business owner, SFGiants. Your business strategy is to completely alienate a portion of your paying fanbase. Great plan. Bravo. I mean revenue isn’t supposedly already massively down, right? Baseball is in a great spot to turn paying customers away!
I can’t begin to describe the mindlessness of this stance.
“CLEARLY you’re not a business owner, SFGiants. Your business strategy is to completely alienate a portion of your paying fanbase.”
Umm, my entire job is customer service management and training. I consult companies on customer service issues. I consult them about how certain decisions will affect their customer base. So customer base management is literally my job.
I see the anti-DH stance a lot like the folks who complain about self-checkout stations at the grocery store. There’s not much reason to be against them aside from silly, unfounded principles.
We all know one of these people, they say silly things like, “If you want me to bag my own groceries, then put me on the payroll!” (Never mind that none of these stores are closing down their actual manned check-out stations, and none of them will go all self-checkout.)
And many of the smaller chain grocery stores I consult have lost customers because of these self-checkout stations. It’s literally a top 3 customer complaint.
So, should the companies ditch the self-checkout stations in order to not lose customers? After all, they aren’t in the business of losing paying customers! Here’s how I generally approach it: if you suddenly change course and ditch the stations, those same customers will find something else to whine about, and you’ll likely still lose them.
It’s the same with the anti-DH folks. These are typically the same fans who say they’ll never watch baseball again if baseball no longer makes the pitcher throw 4 pitches for an intentional walk; or if baseball doesn’t ban the shift; or if players start kneeling; or this or that or this or that.
They are unserious Karens who will complain about anything if given the chance. They are the same customer who thinks yelling, “IF YOU MAKE ME WEAR A MASK, I’M NEVER SHOPPING HERE AGAIN!!!” will be effective.
From my view, none of the anti-DH guys are going to suddenly be at eternal bliss if baseball gets rid of the DH. They’ll just move on to another complaint. And it’s best that MLB treats them like hostile customers and tell them to go pound sand.
If the universal DH is right for baseball going forward (I believe it is), then they need to do it and not worry about the customers. If every company in America failed to move forward because of whiney customers, they would never succeed.
The customer is not always right. In most cases, they have only one interest: themselves. They don’t care about any other customer around them, or the good of the company. They care about themselves. And baseball needs to tell selfish customers like you to get lost and go somewhere else.
I am a traditionalist. Universal DH just makes it easier for me to walk away from baseball. There are other factors that encourage me to walk away. No baseball this summer encouraged me to do lots of other things with my time, e.g. camping and woodturning. When baseball returned this year, I watched a lot less. Another factor is the way baseball is played has changed with an increased emphasis on power, both in batting and pitching. While many of you may find it interesting, I don’t. I find games increasing boring.
The DH is good for baseball. Watching a pitcher swing at 3 pitches and strike out is bad for baseball
Then you really should worry about the health of baseball in general as strike out rates have been rising for more than a decade. It is not just pitchers who are striking out, it is a problem across positions. The increased emphasis on power hitting probably leads to more strike outs.
Pitchers, as a collective group in 2019, struck out 43.5% of the time. 2 out of every 5 at bats.
For someone thinking strikeouts are an alarming issue, you’d think your argument would be to not let that group continue taking at bats.
But no, you’ll walk away from baseball if they implement the universal DH. But you’ll also walk away because strike outs are way up. You can’t have it both ways.
If you’ve wondered why zero people take anything you say seriously, I might offer that this could be why.
Is there anyone whose opinion re the DH is likely to be changed based on internet comments?
I see baseball moving towards the Universal DH. If it were up to the purists, we would still be playing baseball with sticks and stones.
If they adopt the DH in the NL, why do we even have an NL?
Why have two leagues?
Just merge them into one giant one since there would be no difference between them anyways.
At that point, it’d make more sense to just make it a giant, 8 division league, with seeding between division winners.
There was talk a while ago (Probably more than a decade ago) about reorganizing the leagues into East/West like basketball in order to save on traveling costs. It mostly got shot down because of logistics but I can imagine a universal DH would make people talk about it again.
The inevitable is near regarding no separation of leagues. First no separate league offices (so no separate presidents), then all umpires working both leagues, one official MLB ball, constant interleague play, then universal DH. Perhaps not in that precise order, but an NFL-style structure is nigh — it will be simply called Major League Baseball with National and American conferences.
Why would anyone be worried about the MLB and players’ union animus erupting to the point of complete dysfunction? It’s not like that’s ever happened… this weekend
Let’s now discuss the uselessness of the safety squeeze or stealing home since statistically it is inefficient.
As hard as pitching is to come by, why would any owner want his pitchers risking injury batting and/or running the base Salary?
Bases
It’s time for universal DH. Pitchers hitting is, for the most part, completely unprofessional. It’s like taking a medical student and asking him to do heart surgery.
And La Russa does not make the White Sox contenders. What a crazy world the sports world is becoming. You make the playoffs, and fire your manager. I don’t see how an organization like that can be successful.
Attach the DH to the starting pitcher!!
Why do so many of you type hurtful things?
I see the dodgers, Yankees, Mets and my sleeping team is the cardinals to pick up Lindor
So with universal
DHsomeone might trade something of value for Kyle Schwarber..?
Rangers29 Your a Texas Rangers fan you have the DH in your league why is so important that the NL adopt a rule that many of us NL fans still don’t like or want. Why is uniformity so important to fans it has minimal effect on that includes Mr. Mandfred.