A potentially intriguing offseason awaits the Giants, who are positioned to be one of the winter’s more aggressive teams depending on how they approach their long-term spending.
Guaranteed Contracts
- Evan Longoria, 3B: $43MM through 2022 (includes $5MM buyout of $13MM club option for 2023)
- Johnny Cueto, SP: $27MM through 2021 (includes $5MM buyout of $22MM club option for 2022)
- Buster Posey, C: $24.4MM through 2021 (includes $3MM buyout of $22MM club option for 2022)
- Brandon Belt, 1B: $16MM through 2021
- Brandon Crawford, SS: $16MM through 2021
- Wilmer Flores, INF: $3.25MM through 2021 (includes $250K buyout of $3.5MM club option for 2022)
Arbitration-Eligible Players
Note on arb-eligible players: this year’s arbitration projections are more volatile than ever, given the unprecedented revenue losses felt by clubs and the shortened 2020 schedule. MLBTR contributor Matt Swartz, who developed our arbitration projection model, used three different methods to calculate different projection numbers. You can see the full projections and an explanation of each if you click here, but for the purposes of our Outlook series, we’ll be using Matt’s 37-percent method — extrapolating what degree of raise a player’s 2020 rate of play would have earned him in a full 162-game slate and then awarding him 37 percent of that raise.
- Daniel Robertson – $1.1MM
- Tyler Anderson – $3.7MM
- Alex Dickerson – $1.8MM
- Jarlin Garcia – $900K
- Trevor Gott – $700K
- Reyes Moronta – $800K
- Wandy Peralta – $1.0MM
- Darin Ruf – $1.4MM
- Austin Slater – $1.1MM
- Donovan Solano – $2.3MM
- Non-tender candidates: Robertson, Gott
Option Decisions
- None
Free Agents
- Kevin Gausman, Tony Watson, Drew Smyly, Jeff Samardzija, Trevor Cahill, Tyler Heineman, Chris Herrmann
President of baseball operations Farhan Zaidi spent his first two seasons trying to work around the Giants’ long list of guaranteed contracts, but the light can be seen at the end of this financial tunnel. Evan Longoria is the only player on the books beyond the 2021 season, providing the Giants with quite a bit of room to maneuver going forward and giving them an advantage in an offseason where most teams will limit their spending.
The question, of course, is whether Zaidi will pursue bigger-scale moves this winter or next. Other than simply acknowledging how payroll “flexibility….will certainly be helpful to us in the current marketplace,” Zaidi hasn’t made any bold statements about his offseason plans, as one might expect. The Giants suffered revenue losses themselves, and a full-bore splurge of major signings and trades for expensive players might not yet be feasible for the team, nor does such a tactic seem to fit Zaidi’s M.O. for roster construction.
There’s also the matter of the big contracts still on the roster for the coming season, but these deals aren’t quite as onerous as they seemed even a year ago. Brandon Crawford rebounded nicely from a mediocre 2019 season. Brandon Belt was quietly one of the better hitters in baseball, ranking fifth among all MLB hitters with a 173 wRC+ (min. 170 plate appearances). Even Longoria still provided his customary strong third base defense despite a below-average offensive year, though his Statcast metrics indicate that Longoria may have been one of the league’s unluckier hitters.
Beyond these veteran contributions, San Francisco also benefited from continued brilliance from the more unheralded members of its roster. Maybe Zaidi doesn’t need to spend big in free agency if his front office’s continual flurry of seemingly low-level roster moves keeps finding the likes of MVP candidate Mike Yastrzemski, Donovan Solano, Alex Dickerson, or Darin Ruf.
The result is a team that suddenly looks pretty set in terms of position players, prompting Zaidi to suggest he’ll focus primarily on “complementary” position players. Dickerson, Mauricio Dubon, and Yastrzemski will patrol the outfield with Ruf and Austin Slater as the first choices for platoon/bench duty. Longoria, Crawford, Solano, and Belt hold down the regular infield slots with Wilmer Flores getting a lot of action at first or second base (or at DH, if the position exists for NL teams in 2021) and Ruf probably also in the first base mix.
While Solano, Flores, and even Dubon offer some positional versatility, needs might include a proper utility infielder who could be a feasible shortstop option if Crawford was injured. Daniel Robertson performed pretty well in his limited time as a Giant, and though that might not be enough for San Francisco to tender him a contract, the team could explore re-signing him on a cheaper deal. Ideally, the Giants would probably prefer to add a left-handed hitter since they’re already heavy on righty bats.
Catcher isn’t necessarily a question mark in terms of personnel, but it’s definitely the biggest unknown in terms of what the Giants can expect. After undergoing hip surgery late in the 2018 season, Buster Posey didn’t look right for much of 2019 and then opted out of playing in 2020. It’s anyone’s guess as to what the former NL MVP can produce as he heads into his age-34 season.
Posey projects as the starting catcher while star prospect Joey Bart is likely to start 2021 in the minor leagues to get more seasoning after struggling in his first taste of MLB competition. Zaidi implied that the team could look to add a veteran backup for Posey while Bart gets some Triple-A time, or could turn to internal options like Chadwick Tromp or Aramis Garcia (who is returning from a hip surgery of his own).
If the Giants have plenty to work with around the diamond, the opposite is true in the starting rotation. Johnny Cueto was inconsistent in his first full season back after Tommy John surgery. Tyler Beede will be back after missing a season of his own due to TJ surgery, and Logan Webb and Tyler Anderson will return as middle-to-back-of-the-rotation types.
Beyond that quartet, there isn’t much depth, experienced or otherwise. Kevin Gausman, Trevor Cahill, Drew Smyly, and Jeff Samardzija are all free agents, leaving some major holes to fill and some major innings to replace. Smyly and Cahill were limited by injuries but pitched well when healthy, with Smyly working mostly as a traditional starter and Cahill pitching as both a starter and as a reliever.
Zaidi has already said that the Giants are making a “priority” of re-signing Gausman and Smyly, and the first step in that direction was taken when San Francisco issued Gausman a qualifying offer. If Gausman simply accepts, the Giants will have him back on a one-year, $18.9MM contract, though if the team pursues a multi-year contract, the 2021 payroll would take less of a hit. This could be something of a replay of Jose Abreu and the White Sox last winter, when Abreu accepted the QO but then worked out an extension with the team after the fact.
The fact that the Giants are willing to pay Gausman $18.9MM even for one season is indicative of a few things. It speaks to the team’s need for pitching, naturally, and also to how well Gausman pitched in his first year in San Francisco. In the larger picture, it hints that the Giants may indeed be willing and able to spend this offseason; if Gausman rejects the qualifying offer and signs elsewhere, then that theoretically leaves at least $18.9MM that the Giants will have to direct in some fashion towards the roster.
Those funds could be split up among multiple players rather than a single name. (For example, the total price tag on Gausman, Smyly, Anderson, and Cahill last offseason didn’t even total $18.9MM.) Whether Gausman re-signs or not, expect the Giants to extend low-cost, one-year contracts to a veteran hurler or two.
But, let’s think a bit bigger. Looking at the free-agent pitching market, Trevor Bauer is the clear top option. His stated preference for a team that is both analytically-inclined and willing to let him pitch every fourth day could make him a fit in San Francisco, as Zaidi and manager Gabe Kapler have both shown that they’re ready to think outside the box. Bauer has walked back his previous declarations about only seeking one-year contracts, but the Giants have the payroll space to accommodate both a deal for just 2021 (Samardzija and Zack Cozart’s expiring contracts represent over $30MM coming off the books) or for multiple seasons.
Marcus Stroman is also likely to score a big multi-year contract (though Stroman also has a QO decision to make and he didn’t pitch in 2020 after opting out of the season), but MLBTR’s list of the top 50 free agents doesn’t project any other starter to earn more than $39MM, with Masahiro Tanaka and Jake Odorizzi both hitting that threshold on three-year deals. Could the Giants hedge their bets slightly by making a Tanaka/Odorizzi-esque signing that would provide the rotation with a clear upgrade, yet still not represent a truly bank-breaking investment?
Going to the other side of the pitching department, the Giants plan to add at least one veteran reliever, so they could direct some funds towards bolstering the pen. GM Scott Harris recently indicated that the club would prefer to develop a closer rather than sign one, but the Giants have the money to pursue a Liam Hendriks or a Brad Hand if they wish. The Indians’ recent decision to waive Hand (and the subsequent decision of the other 29 teams to not claim him) suggests that there might not be much appetite for spending on relief pitching this winter, so San Francisco could gain an edge on the market by offering relievers contracts even slightly closer to what they would expect to receive in a more normal offseason environment.
Despite ostensibly being in a mini-rebuild over Zaidi’s two seasons, the team has been decently competitive. The 2020 Giants fell just one game shy of reaching the postseason. Provided that the lineup keeps hitting as it did last season, it isn’t out of the question to think that the Giants are a pitcher or two away from making some noise in October in 2021. The offseason possibilities are just about endless for Zaidi, Harris and company….depending on how far ownership is willing to stretch the payroll in this particular winter. Arguments can be made for going big or going small. The likeliest course could lie in the middle — taking legitimate steps toward emerging as a contender without quickly bogging themselves down with another slate of untenable long-term contracts.
Brac2brac
Need to make it as a wildcard
2020WorldChampions
Wildcard? They need to try and figure out a way to finish above .500……haha
chicoescuela
Brewers and Astros made playoffs and were sub .500
Ciaban
That was with a massively expanded post season, were not getting that again.
If the giants are going to make the playoffs they need to win the division or a wild card spot.
Ciaban
That was with a massively expanded post season, were not getting that again.
If the giants are going to make the playoffs they need to win the division or a wild card spot.
SFGiants402
The other factor you’d have to consider with Zaidi is his knack for finding contributors from unlikely places.
In just two years in San Francisco, he’s brought in Yastrzemski, Solano, Dickerson, and Darin Ruf. The most he gave up was a couple players who are probably selling used cars somewhere, Those players, when adjusted for 162 games, combined for about 14 wins this season.
It’ll be interesting to see how Farhan Zaidi handles this offseason. But he’s left Giants fans with a lot to be excited about.
dpsmith22
that’s fortune not skill to have hit on more than 1 castoff.
dan duquette hit on one in the middle of our window. do you think he was good? lol
Blue_Painted_Dreams_LA
To be fair it’s more than fortune. In LA they hit on a bunch of those guys, because they attacked skills sets they liked, and allowed guys to reconfigure swing/approach and frankly developed guys. That points to more than luck or fortune, especially when it continues to happen. Not only just in the development department, but also scouting. So if they are starting to build an organization process like he was a part of in LA it’s different from a team that was a decade behind and Duquette is a horrible comp.
Ciaban
A big reason for that was Luck.
The changes that Justin Turner made were his own with no prompting by the F.O. he was also the one who taught that upper cut approach to many of the cast off’s that were successful.
The history books won’t show it, but much of the dodgers recent success has been due to Justin Turner and luck.
claude raymond
LF DickersonRuf
CF Dubon/Yaz
RF Yaz
3b Robertson/Flores
SS Robertson/Solano
2B Solano/Dubon
1B Ruf/Flores
C Tromp
Decent and offensively productive lineup. All Zaidi pickups.
ALL.
Add Belt/Crawford/Longoria/Posey/Slater.
Yep, ALL just good “fortune”. Yep, Zaidi is an idiot. Yep, veterans loved the coaching staff’s influence. Again Zaidi = moron.
No hope
No future
Just good fortune.
Excellent prospects coming.
The Zaidi comp………?
Zaidi
Y’all get a clue
TonyGwynnSD19
The Giants have become irrelevant in NL West. And they are Not a few pieces away. You could add Bauer and Springer and they’d still finish 3rd maybe 4th in the Division. Even if they somehow could hit over the course of 162, They don’t have the pitching or the organizational depth. Even in a shortened season last year , they finished with a losing record.
mrnatewalter
Padres fans really are thirsty for some attention, aren’t they?
Maybe if you troll loud enough, Ron Fowler won’t do what every other wise sports owner has done and leave San Diego for a better city.
SFGiants402
If an owner is leaving San Diego to go to Los Angeles, I can assure you, it’s the people he wants to leave, not the city.
claude raymond
If I look up the word irrelevant in the dictionary it will say see San Diego Padres, Pages 234-235
Ciaban
It’s not being thirsty for attention.
It’s a factual assessment, the giants don’t have a path to the post season as they’re currently constructed.
Even with the addition of Springer, and hell, lets say Lindor and then add an ace like Bauer. They’re still going to be lucky to get the 2nd Wild Card spot.
The NL East has several legitimate playoff conteders with the Braves, Nats, Phillies and Mets. The NL West has the Dodgers and Padres in the way. How do the giants make the post season as they’re constructed?
geg42
Alex Dickerson is a DH who snuck out onto the field.
DarkSide830
pick a lane. rebulid or go for it.
jimthegoat
“No!”
– The Giants and Indians’ FO’s
Howie415
They are rebuilding.
jimthegoat
@Howie415 if that is the case why didn’t they trade Gausman and Smyly?
atuck_sfg
What if there wasn’t good enough offers? Would you trade quality starts for peanuts? I doubt it
jimthegoat
@SFGiants402
“Nice picture of your boyfriend?”
Classy. And here I was thinking San Francisco was a progressive city.
“…you see, when a team is sitting around .500 and trying to vie for a playoff spot, they typically don’t trade away their #1 pitcher.”
“But honest question, who is going to trade for a rental pitcher that’s pitched for 8 total innings prior to the trade deadline? And what do you believe the Giants would have received in return for him?”
A contender who needs a pitcher More than the nothing the Giants will now get for him.
“So in recap: Gausman was the #1 pitcher on a team in the hunt for a playoff spot, and no one was going to give the Giants anything for Drew Smyly.”
They finished under .500 and only came close to a playoff spot because of the expanded format. Not where they needed to be.
“If it’s too complex, ask your mom for help reading it.”
My mom hasn’t been able to read MLBTR, or do anything else, for 8 years now. Does your mom know that you use your phone to troll MLBTR in class?
But Howie said they are rebuilding. So which one is it?
“I know it’s difficult for you to understand what good decisions are, but that’s why they didn’t trade Gausman (for several other reasons that are probably far too complex for your “retired at 33” IQ).”
Such as what? They aren’t getting a draft pick for him because he has to actually decline the QO and sign elsewhere for that to happen.
“As far as Smyly, he played 3 total games prior to the trade deadline. Three. (That’s one more than two, and one less than four).”
Oh good, you can do arithmetic. Maybe there is (some) hope for you. Maybe.
jimthegoat
@atuck_sfg they got less than peanuts by not trading them. They got nothing. A used bag of baseballs would be worth more than what they ended up getting.
bingbong
lol imagine writing ‘bee tee dubs’ and pretending you’re better than someone else
SFGiants402
Imagine having your user name of “bingbong” and thinking anyone should listen to you.
tedtheodorelogan
Slater needs to be starting in center over Dubon.
DarkSide830
Dubon needs to be starting somewhere
SFGiants402
Slater needs to be starting over Dickerson, not Dubon.
tedtheodorelogan
Dickerson had an ops over 200 points higher than Dubon.
Adios pelota!
100% agree! We need both because I have a feeling Dickerson will miss time with back problems again. Those are nagging injuries.
But, Slater deserves a shot at afull time spot. Dubon is alright but a little underwhelming honestly.
wiggysf
I think I’m in favor of a Dickerson Slater Yaz outfield as well. I think Dubon is a valuable piece not because of his center field work but because he’s capable of playing three outfield positions and two infield positions.
arc89
The good thing for the Giants their bad contracts are getting closer to going away. Longoria contract is real bad is why tampa gave him away. best thing they could do this off season is just sign a few low end free agents. ride out the year and play the young guys in 21. Use the savings to sign a couple good free agents in 22.
solaris602
Next winter will be VERY interesting. The fan base has deep attachments to all those players whose contracts are expiring or are facing buyouts. Bobby Evans would pick up those options no matter what, but I think Zaidi will wisely let them all walk. You hate to see Posey in anything but a Giants uniform, but he’ll have to have an epic renaissance in ‘21 to have any shot at returning in ‘22. As for the rest, it will be time to move on.
SFGiants402
If Belt is able to replicate his 2020 success, even with moderate regression, I think they bring him back. The other guys I think Zaidi lets walk.
scottn59c
No reason to bring him back. One of Bart or Wilson is the future 1B.
jimthegoat
Zaidi is no better with the being emotionally attached to players thing. That’s why he didn’t trade Bumgarner, Smith, Gausman and Smyly.
Howie415
No team is going to give you players with any value for free agents to be. It neve happens. Why trade them?
SFGiants402
It’s baffling that there’s still a group of people who think the Giants were going to get an elite prospect for Bumgarner. They weren’t.
It’s quite evident that Zaidi believed the could get a better player in the draft than any player he was offered for guys like Bumgarner and Smith.
It’s not that Zaidi had some emotional attachment to any of those guys, but rather, he wasn’t going to trade them for a bad return just for the sake of trading them.
jimthegoat
@Howie415 Ben Zobrist, Aroldis Chapman and Manny Machado all say hi.
jimthegoat
@SFGiants402 no one is saying they were going to get an elite prospect for Bumgarner. But they didn’t get an elite prospect from that draft pick either.
And the draft pick excuse works on Bumgarner and Smith but not Gausman or Smyly.
SFGiants402
And yes, the draft pick argument works with Gausman, considering they offered him a QO. If he declines, and signs somewhere else, the Giants get an extra draft pick.
And with Bumgarner: his value was not what people thought it was. And Zaidi is on record saying he felt keeping Bumgarner was better for the team, who were playing great baseball at the deadline.
And for all your griping about them not trading Bumgarner or Smith, you conveniently ignore them turning Drew Pomeranz into a controllable, starting hitter; or getting insane value back for Sam Dyson; or getting the Braves to take ALL of Melancon’s horrible contract AND give up a decent prospect in return.
However you feel about the Giants not trading Bumgarner, this much was clear: no one was offering a return Zaidi couldn’t refuse. If someone was offering a 50FV prospect for him, Zaidi would have 100% pulled the trigger. They didn’t.
Jean Matrac
If he was so emotionally invested in Bumgarner and Smith, why did he let them walk? Since he was willing to see them sign elsewhere the only logical explanation is the trade offers weren’t better than the draft compensation.
Howie415
@jimthegoat Take a look at Bumgarner’s stats the past 3 seasons. It is not 2014 anymore.
davemlaw
No. If Zaidi had emotional attachment he never would have released the Panda. They could have benched him or put him on the DL instead of releasing a 3 time Ring winner and fan favorite.
Holding onto Bum, Smith, Gausman and Smyly were business decisions with risks worth taking. Bum and Smith worked out as the Giants received compensation through the offering of the QO; Gausman could have same result or he stays for 1 more year. Smyly was hurt going into the trade deadline thus negating any trade value. I do believe the Giants signed Gaus and Smyly with the intent of trading them but pivoted based on circumstance.
So I don’t see Zaidi’s decisions based on emotion at all.
Blue_Painted_Dreams_LA
Was Bum considered and viewed as an elite piece/game changer? Or was it people’s perceptions and memories of playoffs pasts? Seems more like the wrong category to put Bum in, especially with the way the industry actually viewed him.
jimthegoat
@Howie415 you said no one gives up value for free agents to be. I provided you with perfect examples of teams doing exactly that. Why did you ignore those examples?
jimthegoat
@tad2b13 probably wanted to frame the narrative as if they were the bad guys for leaving as opposed to him sending them away.
jimthegoat
@SFGisnts403 and davemlaw Gausman has to actually decline the QO for that to work out. And he’s not going to decline the QO.
Howie415
@jimthegoat It’s kind of obvious. Bumgarner hasn’t been an elite pitcher for a few seasons now. You weren’t going to get anything that don’t already have in their system already. Besides, how many of the players traded for Zobrist, Machado, and Chapman have panned out? I doubt they have turned into anything more than utility players.
davemlaw
The fact Gausman hasn’t accept the QO yet means there’s a greater than zero chance he declines.
Because there will be much more talent available in the 2021 MLB draft teams may be inclined to give up a draft pick and sign players who received a QO. Good starting pitching is always in demand so predicting Gausman accepts the QO is simply guessing; I’m sure his agent is beating the bushes to teams needing starting pitching, like the Mets et al who have money to spend.
But I think he ends up back with the Giants too, either on a multiyear or the 1 year, just a hunch.
SFGiants402
Shields wasn’t a rental, at all. He had 4 years left on his contract when the White Sox acquired him.
jimthegoat
@Howie415 the Yankees got Gleyber Torres for Chapman. He’s elite. The A’s got Sean Manaea for Zobrist. He’s injury prone but great when healthy. The Orioles targeted players who were further away in the Machado trade. We’ll see how they end up doing.
It doesn’t matter how good Bumgarner is or isn’t. You said no one trades value for pending free agents any more and I completely destroyed your assertion. So take a seat.
jimthegoat
@davemlaw his agent is asking around rn to see what’s out there because the deadline to accept the QO hasn’t passed yet. But you can rest assured. He’s accepting it.
jimthegoat
@SFGiants402 Shields had an opt-out after 2016 which means he was worse than a rental. He was a rental with a 2-year $44m player option after the season that would be exercised if and only if the ChiSox didn’t want it to be exercised.
SFGiants402
Shields was a 34-year-old making 21M a year. He was never opting out of that deal. And if Rick Hahn thought he was opting out, and thus, traded for him accordingly, then Rick Hahn is a worse GM than any of us think.
Also, you’ve destroyed no one in any conversation on here. You brought up three unrelated trades (technically four), all of which have layers of context that you’re clearly not intelligent enough to see.
So maybe you need to take a seat, and probably a nap. Do your parents know you skipped school today?
Howie415
@pato Yeah right?? You are going to get Fernando Tatis for Madison Bumgarner?? How does that work?? You need to comeback to reality.
Howie415
@jimthegoat No. Your assertion was that Zaidi was to emotionally attached to Bumgarner to trade him. There is no way you are going to get a Torres, or Manaea, for Bumgarner. It does matter how good a player is.
SFGiants402
Jimthegoat REALLY loves Madison Bumgarner, and clearly thinks the Giants could have gotten Juan Soto, Trea Turner, and Victor Robles for him.
Clearly, this must be case.
jimthegoat
@SFGiants402 Shields had an opt-out after 2016. You said he wasn’t a rental when the ChiSox traded for him. But because of the opt-out, he would have become a rental if he was actually doing what the ChiSox were hoping he would do when they traded for him.
Howie said no one trades value for rentals. There were no qualifiers in his statement. I provided perfect examples of teams doing exactly that.
School? Are you serious? I have literally been retired since 2000.
jimthegoat
@Howie just admit that teams trade legit value for rentals all the time and I’ll stop.
jimthegoat
@SFGiants402 actually I think they could have gotten Mike Trout for Bumgarner with the Angels paying all of Trout’s contract.
Come on man! If you are going to put a straw man out there, you need to really go for it!
SFGiants402
Having an opt-out, unless the player is obviously going to choose to exercise it, does not make someone a rental.
Shields, a 34-year-old, coming off a season where he was worth 0.8 wins, and then was pitching with a 4.28 ERA before he was traded, was not going to opt out of a 21M/year deal. The White Sox knew this, which is why they got the Padres to add in 38M to the deal.
And you being retired for 20 years makes a lot more sense. Perhaps you should go get your dementia pills and get off the dial-up, your wife needs to call her side piece. I think dinner will be ready in an hour.
jimthegoat
@SFGiants402 yeah, he was worse than a rental. The White Sox would have preferred he be a rental. Instead they had to pay him $21m (minus whatever portion the Padres ate) a year to serve up dingers left and right. Had he been worth what was left on his contract be would have become a rental. So basically he was a rental with a potential 2/$44m poison pill option that would be exercised if and only if the White Sox didn’t want it to be exercised.
If I had dementia I’m pretty sure I would not have been able to retire comfortably at 33. I think your recess is almost over. Time to put the phone away sonny. Teacher will be around to collect your homework shortly.
SFGiants402
LOL. James Shields was a rental, and then he’s worse than a rental, and in fact, the White Sox, who KNEW he wasn’t a rental (and crafted the trade accordingly) wished he were a rental?
The point is, you tried to rope in a guy who had several years remaining on his contract (and was knowingly not going to opt out) with a bunch of unrelated cases where rentals were acquired—along with you failing to understand context or how value works in baseball.
Also, “retiring comfortably at 33” is a nice way of saying you live in mom’s basement, can’t get even McDonalds to hire you, and that you offer noting to society.
If you want to call it “retirement”, so be it. Everyone else has a different term for it.
Anyhoo, keep thinking the Giants could have gotten Gleyber Torres for Bumgarner. Maybe instead of playing MLB The Show, you can try and get a job.
Toodles.
jimthegoat
“LOL. James Shields was a rental, and then he’s worse than a rental, and in fact, the White Sox, who KNEW he wasn’t a rental (and crafted the trade accordingly) wished he were a rental?”
Well yeah, if the White Sox had it their way Shields would have opted out of his contract, hence becoming a rental. Instead he opted in and they had to pay him (I believe) $10m a year the next 2 years to serve up dingers.
i actually wasn’t the one that brought Shields into this. It was pato. but because he had the right to opt out after 2016, that means all the value in his contract (if there was any) was tied to 2016. And the actual point is that Howie415 swore up and down that teams don’t trade value for rentals then went into hiding when I provided multiple examples of teams doing exactly that. Whether or not Bumgarner is good is not relevant. He never specified “good” rentals.
“Also, “retiring comfortably at 33” is a nice way of saying you live in mom’s basement, can’t get even McDonalds to hire you, and that you offer noting to society.”
Actually it means my partners and I invested in some fields that did quite well and I made enough money to live comfortably to live on by the time I was 33. But you wouldn’t know anything about that when you haven’t contributed anything to society besides asking people if they would like to Supersize their order
“Anyhoo, keep thinking the Giants could have gotten Gleyber Torres for Bumgarner. Maybe instead of playing MLB The Show, you can try and get a job.”
Let’s make a deal. You provide a quote from me saying that the Giants could have gotten Gleyber Torres for Bumgarner and I’ll leave this board forever. Fail to do so and you have to leave this board forever. That sound fair to you?
atuck_sfg
That guy has a couple comments on here about how the Giants didn’t trade players the last two trade deadlines, he obviously doesn’t get that you don’t just trade players to trade them, there has to be value in the trade.
jimthegoat
@atuck_sfg yes you do trade players just to trade them. Especially when you aren’t contending and your choices are either that or lose them for nothing.
SFGiants402
LOL. “My partners and I.” It’s nice that your mom has done well, and as much as she probably appreciates you calling her your business partner, I think she’d prefer you find your own place to live.
As far as your wager, No, here’s what we’ll do. YOU’RE the one acting so arrogant about what the Giants could have received, so here’s what you should do:
YOU tell us what offers the Giants received for each of the following: Bumgarner, Smith, Gausman, Smyly.
If you do that, I leave this board forever. There are zero stakes for you, other than proving what offers Farhan Zaidi turned down that he deserves to be criticized for.
So, since you’re “retired”, go ahead and dig out those offers. and inform us all what they were.
Howie415
@jimthegoat Why would the Angels trade Trout? That doesn’t make any sense.
jimthegoat
@SfGiants402 But we’ve already established that my mom has been dead for 8 years now so what are you even talking about? By the way I dare you to talk about people’s parents to their face. I promise that won’t end well for you.
“As far as your wager, No, here’s what we’ll do.”
Haha I love it. You backpedal on your straw man argument the second I challenge you to back it up.
You can argue they should have kept Bumgarner and Smith because they got draft picks. But they’re not going to get draft picks for Gausman or Smyly so they would have been better off just waiving them.
jimthegoat
@Howie415 r/whoosh
jimthegoat
By the way @Howie415, are you going to admit that teams trade value for rentals all the time or nah?
Howie415
@jimthegoat Sure, when you admit that Zaidi wasn’t to emotionally attached to Bumgarner to trade. And also admit that any player received would not have been elite.
Howie415
@jimthegoat Why would the Angels trade Trout for Bumgarner.
jimthegoat
@Howie415 Where did I say that they would get anyone elite for Bumgarner? Drop a quote.
By the way, they didn’t have to get someone elite to beat what they ended up getting (the draft pick)
Deleted_User
@Howie415 really? You couldn’t detect the sarcasm in his Trout comment? Heck, he even admitted in that comment that it was sarcastic.
SFGiants402
So, are you going to say what offers Zaidi turned down in order to keep Bumgarner and Gausman or nah?
I’m guessing it’s nah, because you’re blowing smoke out of your you-know-where and don’t have the slightest idea what you’re talking about.
Seriously, if you’re willing to show me proof of an offer, even just one offer, that the Giants received for those players, I’ll deactivate my account.
You can mourn your mama later. You have an arrogance to justify.
jimthegoat
@SFGiants402 Where did I say that the Giants would get Gleyber Torres or someone like him for Bumgarner? You made the claim, you drop the quote.
“You have an arrogance to justify.”
Look in the mirror sonny.
Howie415
He thinks Jackie Bradley jr is worth $19 million a year.
jimthegoat
@Howie415 who was talking about Jackie Bradley Jr?
Still waiting for you to address your comment about no one trading value for rentals.
Howie415
@jimthegoat Look at the traded players as comparisons that you brought up. What is wrong with the players drafted?
SFGiants402
It was called exaggerating, Goat-lover. But since you’re clearly not intelligent enough to see that it was an exaggeration, I’ll drop the quote.
You’re the one who is criticizing the Giants for not trading those players. So, let us know what deals the Giants so foolishly and stupidly turned down.
Again, you can simply get rid of me on here by providing that information with links.
Since you’re “retired”, you have the time to do it. So let us all know.
jimthegoat
@SFGiants402 oh so now that I’ve exposed and embarrassed you it was just an exaggeration? Your legs must be tired from all that backpedaling.
SFGiants402
So, are you going to step up to the plate and justify your criticism? The question is simple:
What offers did the Giants turn down?
You seem so hell bent on criticizing them, so I’d have to imagine that you have some knowledge on this.
Please, enlighten the room.
jimthegoat
Actually I dropped links to threads on this site from August 2020 and July 2019 which said teams (specifically the Yankees and Astros) were calling the Giants about Gausman and Bumgarner but my comment got a pending. So yeah, they could have traded both.
SFGiants402
The internet equivalent of “my dog ate my homework”.
I’ll help you out.
You point out a couple SPECIFIC returns for Bumgarner and Gausman that the Giants didn’t take. And just tell us what source said it, along with a date. No links necessary.
Go for it, Mr. Retired Man.
jimthegoat
@SfGiants402 I don’t have to provide specific returns. It is known that they could have gotten SOMETHING for Bumgarner and Gausman. And while you might have a case on them keeping Bumgarner because he got them a draft pick, Gausman won’t. They would have been better off just waiving him.
scottn59c
Or was it because those guys had better value as Giants at the deadlines than what other teams were willing to give up?
jimthegoat
@Scottn59c they had no value as Giants at the deadline. Heck, they had negative value because they cost $.
SFGiants402
LOL. When adjusted for a 162-game season, Gausman carried a surplus value of 24M. Bumgarner has a surplus value of 21M in 2019.
To suggest they had no value shows you have zero understanding of this and you should really just stop.
I’m not sure you’re trolling. I think you’re ACTUALLY trying, and that’s 10x worse.
jimthegoat
@SFGiants402 they had no value to the Giants because the Giants are rebuilding. At this point all they were doing was costing money and hurting their draft position.
Also, first you say no one was trading anything for them and now you are talking about how much surplus value they had. So which one is it?
SFGiants402
I’m simply answering your stupid retort that Bumgarner and Gausman had NEGATIVE value for the Giants. They didn’t. They carried millions in surplus value.
Which is probably why Zaidi held onto both of them. The offers they received probably didn’t match the value Zaidi wanted to see in return, so he held onto them. These aren’t difficult concepts, but it really seems to tie your brain in knots.
Are you going to tell us what the Giants were offered for Bumgarner and Gausman, or are you going to continue to talk out of your rectal orifice?
Just answer the question I asked you. If you’re so sure that the Giants foolishly missed out on trading those guys, you’ll certainly know what, specifically, they turned down.
Let’s hear it.
Or are you going to just ignore it because you have no clue what you’re talking about?
jimthegoat
@SFGiants402 Oh so now you are saying they had surplus value? Surplus value = trade value. So you admit that the Giants could have gotten something for both of them? Good, glad we are in agreement.
And as for the offers received not matching the value Zaidi wanted to see, they certainly exceed the value he will now receive: nothing
Joggin’George
Sean Manaea, Gleyber Torres so far… Machado return too soon to say. These things are easy to look up if you wanna deal with actual facts.
SFGiants402
“So you admit that the Giants could have gotten something for both of them? Good, glad we are in agreement.”
Your 1992 Geo Metro might have value, but it doesn’t mean someone wants to give you anything for it. And it might not match the price you’re asking for on it.
So, this is tiring, and you’re tiring. Now I see why your mom wanted out. And when they say “she’s in a better place” just so you know, they don’t mean heaven. They mean away from you.
Your mom must have been a saint to put up with you, dear goodness.
jimthegoat
@SFGiants402 well if you know that the Geo Metro is about to turn into a frog in a month you absolutely take what you can get for it.
pepenas34
When a team does not trade a player is not that they don’t get nothing, you are forgetting that the player gets to play for the team and don’t piss the fans for the cheap return of an icon player with the revenue it generates. we now know they did not make playoffs, but what if? that has value.
jimthegoat
@pepenas34 Gausman isn’t an icon player. And if he is I feel truly sorry for Giants fans.
Also, letting an icon player walk for nothing will piss the fans off even more than trading him.
Giants were never going to make the playoffs so having him on the team down the stretch doesn’t do anything for them.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
@Jimthegoat, Let’s take SFGiants402’s the car example further:
If you have the car, and you want five grand for it, and I come to you and say, no, that car will depreciate in value by 80%, so I’ll give you TWO GRAND for it.
That extra 1,000 ensures you get something now, instead of nothing later. BUT, it still loses you $3,000 in value in the present.
Do you make that trade? Of course you don’t. Because you don’t sell something at it’s future value, you sell it at it’s present value.
Or think of it this way, I see that you say you made an investment that worked out for you. Did you invest at current value, or future value? It’s obviously the inverse of the situation at hand, but you weren’t going to pay for future value, otherwise, you would have lost money.
The Giants weren’t going to take 50% of the value on Gausman just because they were going to lose him later on. It doesn’t work that way.
jimthegoat
@JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt so you are saying that, if you have an asset whose value you know with 100% certainty is going to crash to zero in a month, and you also know that this is your only chance to get rid of it, and you also know that you will have to put even more money into that asset if you don’t get rid of it now, you would NOT take what you can get for it?
Guess we know why you’ll never be a GM LOL
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
You don’t have to be immature about this. I’m just trying to have a conversation with you.
And no, that’s not how this works:
You don’t go to the grocery store and offer $0.01 for a bunch of bananas because we know that they’ll eventually rot, and they should take it because something is better than nothing and they should take what they can get.
And you don’t go to the car dealership and offer less than sticker price knowing the current price will drop due to depreciation.
If you want current product, you pay current value. That’s how economics works. It’s how baseball trades work. It’s how literally every company to ever exist has sold its products.
There’s no industry that let’s you purchase something at a future, depreciated and/or crashed value.
If you truly made an investment that allowed you to retire at 33, you would know this. So I get the sense you just want to be inflammatory and annoy people.
If I’m wrong, and you want to discuss the issue of Gausman’s trade like a reasonable person, then I encourage you to drop the act and be willing to have a conversation. You don’t seem interested in that.
Howie415
@comodeus There is no way you would have gotten Torres, or Manaea, for Bumgarner.
jimthegoat
@Howie415 that’s not the point. You said no one ever trades value for pending free agents. Torres and Manaea are examples of valuable players who were traded for rentals.
jimthegoat
@JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt…
Your banana analogy is terrible. If I don’t buy them, someone else will. The Giants didn’t have that option with Gausman. For them, it was take what they could get or lose him for nothing.
So basically you are saying the Giants willingly held on to an asset that they 100% knew they would get nothing for if they didn’t sell NOW. And you are defending them for it.
Howie415
@@jimthegoat So, a couple of valuable players got traded. The draft choice is better than anyone they could have gotten for Bumgarner. You are not getting an elite. You get elite players through the draft.
Jean Matrac
jimthegoat:
So, he’s shooting himself in the foot, by not only keeping Smith and Bum, and missing out on acquiring prospects, because he’s emotionally tied to them, but then, despite that attachment, he let’s them sign elsewhere merely for appearances.
I don’t think I could not find a better example of pretzel logic than that.
Ever heard of Occam’s razor? As opposed to your convoluted explanation, the simple answer is the return on a trade simply wasn’t good enough.
Howie415
@jimthegoat By offering him a QO, they get a draft pick as compensation for losing him, if signs elsewhere.
jimthegoat
@Howie415 that would require him to decline the QO, which he won’t. And the players the Giants drafted with the picks they got from Bum and Smith aren’t guaranteed to even make the majors, let alone be elite.
jimthegoat
@tad2b13 like I said, he could have been trying to frame it as if Bumgarner and Smith were the bad guy for leaving as opposed to him sending them away
Howie415
@jimthegoat Good. They need starting pitching.
jimthegoat
@Howie415 ultimately the debate hinges on whether or not you think they could have gotten Gausman or someone like him for less
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
The Giants won’t lose him for nothing.
They either get Gausman to sign a 1/19.8M contract, which would be great value for them. They aren’t strapped for cash, and it’s a one-year commitment at position they need.
OR
They get a pick between the 2nd and 3rd Round.
So, let’s talk about that pick: most of the picks in that round have been 40 FV prospects. That’s pretty good, especially when you consider that the teams weren’t going to give that up for 30 days of Gausman.
Go look at the PTBNL in trade deadline moves, most aren’t even given a scouting grade, and if they are, it’s 35 FV to 40 FV AT BEST.
So, let’s say the Giants were offered a 40 FV prospect for Gausman, they would easily prefer to take the draft pick and get their choice of 40 FV prospects as opposed to getting to choose from extremely limited options.
By offering Gausman a qualifying offer, the Giants ensured they get SOMETHING for Kevin Gausman, either Gausman’s return or a draft pick.
I don’t know why you think they get nothing for him.
jimthegoat
@JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt they’re not getting a draft pick for Gausman. If he declines the QO he’ll be in the same situation as Craig Kimbrel or Dallas Keuchel.
And not sure I agree that Kevin Gausman for 1/$18.9m is great value. This is a guy who was non-tendered a year ago and then had a good 60 games while pitching his home games in an extreme pitchers’ park.
Howie415
@jimthegoat There is no guarantee that that players received would have made the majors either. Teams are not going to give talented players easily. With draft choices, you are only limited by skills of your scouts, and players available.
jimthegoat
@Howie you said you get elite players through the draft. That isn’t guaranteed at all.
Howie415
@@jimthegoat There is no guarantee on how player perform. You are far more likely to find an elite player in the draft than through a trade, or free agency.
jimthegoat
Gonna need to see the numbers on that one
Jean Matrac
jimthegoat: “like I said, he could have been trying to frame it as if Bumgarner and Smith were the bad guy for leaving as opposed to him sending them away”
Yes, that’s exactly what you said before. That is not any kind of additional insight.
I completely understood what you said/meant. What I said is, that it makes no sense in regard to your earlier statement that Zaidi kept Smith and Bum because he had emotional attachments.
Since we’re repeating ourselves, once again, it’s nonsensical to say he didn’t trade the two because of an emotional attachment, but then doing something for appearances suddenly takes precedent over that attachment, and he let’s them walk.
You’re trying to have it both ways. I can guarantee you, the worst GM/Pres. of BB Ops in the history of MLB, would not behave like what you’ve described; a petulant child.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
Considering the Giants’ financial situation, 18.9M isn’t really a factor for them. They need SP, and getting one that did really well for them in 2020 on a 1-year commitment would be ideal. As they re-tool, 1-year deals are exactly what they want.
If he declines, someone will sign him. He’s a top 5 pitcher in a really weak SP market. The likelihood of him going unsigned is very slim.
So, again, they get either another draft pick, or a 4 WAR pitcher on a 1-year deal. That’s a win-win no matter how it plays out.
jimthegoat
@tad2b13 it wasn’t his prerogative to “let” or “not let” Bum and Smith walk. They were free agents. And I’ve seen plenty of people suggest that trading a franchise icon as opposed to letting him walk makes the GM look bad
jimthegoat
@JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt like I said, I just don’t see it has “They have money so they can afford to overpay Gausman for one year.” I see it as “Can they get his kind of production for cheaper elsewhere?” If you can get his kind of production (or better) for cheaper elsewhere, you don’t pay him $18.9m just for funsies. And there is no “if he declines.” He is for sure accepting the QO.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
If Gausman declines the QO, he for sure signs a multi-year deal somewhere. He knows this. It’s not a guarantee that he accepts, and based on how you insisted Nate accept how wrong about Bumgarner, I’d caution you against taking such boisterous stances.
Gausman is a top-5 pitcher on this year’s weak market. Players of his caliber don’t sign 1-year deals, and I strongly doubt they can get his talent on a 1-year deal. Most of those guys will be rebound candidates.
So it’s unlikely they get his production (or better) for cheaper. And cheap isn’t so much the point, it’s the commitment. They want Gausman on a 1-year deal because of the reasons I just pointed out.
The Giants WANT Gausman to accept the QO. Gausman and his agent know this, and it’s why it’s not a “guarantee” that Gausman accepts.
jimthegoat
@JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt if Gausman declines the QO he’ll end up like Keuchel or Kimbrel. Literally not a single team wanted Brad Hand for $10m a week ago. Gausman has nearly twice as much at stake.
Gausman being a top 5 pitcher on this year’s market says more about the rest of the market than about him. And yes you can get a pitcher of his talent on a one year deal. How? By overpaying. Which is what the Giants are doing.
Jean Matrac
jimthegoat:
If the Giants wanted to retain Smith and Bum, they could have. It’s not as clear with Smith, but Bum seemed to be completely happy as a Giant, The Giants could have easily topped the $75M that he signed with AZ for. There is no reason why Bumgarner is not a Giant still, had they felt he was worth that money. Clearly they felt he was not. So there goes any emotional attachment.
But GMs do not hang unto players for emotional reasons. And they especially do not hang to them for that reason, and then let him go for a dollar amount they could have beaten easily. Once again, look for the most logical explanation of what transpired. Your explanation does not fit that description.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
The situation with Brad Hand has more to do with the timing and the financial situation than it does Kevin Gausman or any other free agent.
Gausman could find his way to a 3/36 deal if turned down the QO, and that’s an awfully low prediction.
Let me just put it this way, I’ll believe Farhan Zaidi and trust him long before I trust some random guy on the internet who has a very naive perspective on the game and doesn’t understand basic principles like how players are valued.
So believe what you want, but just know that I, and most people on here think you’re wrong and believe you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.
Have a good night.
jimthegoat
@JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt if Gausman declines the QO he’ll be another Kimbrel/Keuchel. Watch it happen.
jimthegoat
@tad2b13 Bumgarner literally said that he didn’t want to stay in SF. He also said that the Diamondbacks didn’t offer the most money and that he signed there because he liked the Phoenix area (although he never said that the Giants offered more money than AZ AFAIK).
And GM’s hang onto players for emotional reasons all the time. It’s the reason your Giants signed Tim Lincecum to that contract after 2013 and brought Sandoval back after Boston released him. It’s also why Yadier Molina is still a Cardinal despite the fact that he is starting to show his age and they have some young catchers who are trying to break into the majors.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
No, Bumgarner did not say he didn’t want to stay in San Francisco. He actually said the opposite: “Obviously, this is where I came up. I’ve been through a lot here,” Bumgarner said. “A lot of good times and a few bad times, also. Obviously I would love to stay here. If that happens or not, I don’t know. Some parts are in my control, some parts aren’t.”” (Source: NBC Sports Bay Area, 12/19/19). Let’s not make stuff up.
And from every indication, the Giants weren’t offering a better contract. They offered him a 4 year/70M dollar deal, which he apparently felt insulted by. The AAV on that deal was actually higher than what he’s getting in Arizona, but he wasn’t leaving $15M on the table. The extra year and the extra money made it easy for him to go to Arizona, where he lives and trains in the offseason anyway.
If there was another team that outbid the Diamondbacks, it certainly wasn’t San Francisco (which you acknowledge may have been the case).
Giants fans were irate that Zaidi didn’t re-sign Bumgarner, and it seems, to me, Zaidi made an offer he knew the Bumgarner camp would decline, just to say he made an offer. But the notion that Bumgarner didn’t want to come back to San Francisco is hogwash.
Unless you had a private conversation with him, every comment he made toward the media was that he wanted to stay in SF. And if you listened to or read any quotes from the guy, he doesn’t mince words.
That Zaidi let him walk and not attempt to outbid everyone shows that he’s not interested in keeping players out of sentimentality. He’s interested in doing what’s best for the team in the long-term, and signing Bumgarner wasn’t that.
timchief
This will be an interesting off season where I think zaidi will continue to look for shorter term contracts to fill their pitching needs.
There seems to plenty of players who could be seeking a one or two year contract playing in the giants pitcher orientated home ball park.
In no particular order kluber, Hamels, archer, Paxton, Richards, Morton, tanaka, happ, Quintana could all be upgrades and may be seeking a shorter term commitment
pato349
This lineup is below league average from a pure talent and potential standpoint. True they performed well last year but to count on them to repeat may be wishful thinking. Not many seem like they are long term pieces either so at some point they will need to address the offense as well.
Pitching is a much bigger question mark obviously but if we have learned anything from Farhan’s past it is that he doesn’t spend big in free agency. He never has in any of the organizations he has been a part of including when he was with the dodgers. To think that he is going to open up the checkbook for Bauer or anyone else in that tier of free agents seems ignorant at best.
The chances that they sign anyone significant are very low. Why would Farhan change his philosophy all of a sudden especially with a FA class that lacks in quality SP’s. After next year there are so many more attractive options and if Farhan spends this offseason he may not be able to spend as much next offseason when the big names are available.
Having said that, I don’t see Farhan ever making a big splash in free agency. He would prefer to barely miss the playoffs each year with a low payroll and the hope of next season then make the playoffs with expensive FA’s. His value is being frugal and he knows that is all he brings to the table so why on earth would he ever change?
SFGiants402
“if Farhan spends this offseason he may not be able to spend as much next offseason when the big names are available.”
For what it’s worth, the Giants are ~80M under the luxury tax threshold right now, and after this season, they have Belt, Crawford, AND Cueto’s contracts coming off the books, after buyouts, that’s another 50M. If Farhan wants to spend, he absolutely can.
But I agree, it certainly hasn’t been his M.O. thus far. So until he shows otherwise, it’s probably not wise to project that he’ll spend big.
stymeedone
Spending up to the luxury tax thresh hold handcuffs a team in future years. Doubt they plan the tax level as their budget in SF.
SFGiants402
I’m not suggesting they’ll spend up to the luxury tax threshold.
My point was, signing someone like Trevor Bauer is not going to impact the Giants’ ability to sign further big names to their team going forward.
One thing I expect the Giants to do is use that financial stability to take on some dead money and further build their farm (a la Will Wilson/Cozart last winter).
A'sfaninLondonUK
@SFGiants “One thing I expect the Giants to do is use that financial stability to take on some dead money and further build their farm (a la Will Wilson/Cozart last winter).”
Be careful about making logical sensible constructive comments – the invasion of the body snatchers moves in….
The one problem in Giants terms is that the position players look reasonably set. So the areas to take on dead money contracts would be the pitching, (even more specifically the rotation) but face it Zaidi did incredibly well to lose Melancon and his pet albatross.
I suppose the alternative is to swallow a Chris Davis type contract (not using the Orioles as a team willing to trade prospects but Davis’s contract as an example) – release the player (eg Davis) & assign the prospects. That would be a tough sell if I’m a ST holder on Willie Mays Drive.
I could always take up paddle boarding in McCovey cove….
SFGiants402
There’s nothing saying the Giants have to keep the player with the bad contract. They traded for Cozart and dumped him almost immediately.
But if they were to target a positional player, there’s several that could at least be serviceable:
Rougned Odor, Justin Upton, Dexter Fowler, JD Martinez, Ender Inciarte, to name a few.
There’s some pitchers the Giants could target as well:
Eovaldi, Carlos Martinez, Kyle Gibson, Danny Duffy, Alex Cobb, etc.
The Giants could find someone to be useful, or just take the prospect and dump the bad contract. It really doesn’t matter.
davemlaw
I like the Rougned Odor idea if he’s attached with Lance Lynn.
Giants trade Daniel Robertson, Logan Webb and some lower level prospects for those two. Giants relieve Rangers of a lot of salary and Giants get a pitcher who can throw in the postseason and a much needed left handed infield platoon bat who is only 26 years old. Robertson and Webb won’t be enough to swing that deal but the idea of taking on salary while improving the team is intriguing.
SFGiants402
The point of the Giants taking on Odor would be to get young talent, not Lance Lynn. That’s the Giants taking on 35M in contracts to ALSO get rid of 6 years of team control with Logan Webb?
If the Giants acquire Odor and Lynn, the return for Texas would be to get out from underneath Odor’s contract. It’s the same type deal with Cozart and LAA.
Boe Jiden
Giants might be in the position to sign free agents soon, but let’s see if big time free agent hitters want anything to do with SF. Harper wasn’t interested. Stanton squashed a trade to the Bay. It takes two to tango, and unless a few of the much heralded prospect like Luciano, Ramos, Bishop, Bart really become impact players, why would a star want to come play on a mediocre team in a division with two teams who are going to be really good for a long time?
SFGiants402
And the Giants are letting out massive sighs of relief. Stanton has played in 22% of his team’s games over the past two seasons, and has received 34M in the process.
And why would a star want to go to the Giants? Possibly because they may be one of the few teams with the ability or desire to spend this winter. They’ve got the money, and it seems, from comments made by Zaidi, that they will spend it.
And here’s the thing, let’s say the Tigers offer Trevor Bauer 4-5M per year than anyone else, do you honestly think Bauer turns it down? No, he’ll take the money and pitch in Detroit, whether they are good or not.
Most of these players will take the big money.
davemlaw
Last offseason I was preaching the same idea of taking on bad contracts in order to acquire prospects (Wil Myers and Jed Lowrie in particular). But the landscape changed: The Brandon’s showed they still can play this game at a high level, Dickerson, Solano and Yaz showed their 2019’s weren’t a fluke.
Now, I see the Giants having a better chance to compete if they can improve their pitching. So trading a young, controllable and cheap pitcher like Webb in a larger deal for Lynn who has a better track record and could bring a large mid-season return is intriguing. I see Webb like Derek Rodriguez a few years ago; lots of potential but not elite. Giants ended up DFA’ing Rodriguez and he’s got a very similar skill set to Webb.
If the Giants are going to spend money why not spend it on known assets like Springer or Bauer? We still don’t know what kind of player Wil Wilson will be and the Giants paid over $12M for him. SIDENOTE: what if the Giants had kept Zack Cozart and not immediately dropped him? With a shortened season they would only have been on the hook for just under 40% of his salary which means Wilson would have only cost around $4.8M. Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda. And with Wilson not far from a callup I think the Giants have to trade or release Daniel Robertson, very similar player who’s arbitration eligible.
SFGiants402
Lynn is a rental who benefitted from a .242 BABIP against him (his career average 40 points higher). He’s not going to be a 4 WAR player (adjusted for 162 games) in 2021.
The Giants, who need SP, should not take one of their only controllable starters and trade him for a rental, especially when there’s a myriad of pitchers who can provide 2-3 WINS at ~9M a year.
And no, Webb and Rodriguez are not remotely similar.
Webb is a 45 FV prospect who’ll be 24 next season. He has a very good fastball and slider and his 5.36 career ERA (over 94.0 IP) is a full run higher than his 4.25 xFIP. He’s pitching much more effectively than his ERA. He also doesn’t serve home runs like they are a sample at Costco.
Dereck Rodriguez is a full 4-years older, doesn’t strike anyone out, has a career xFIP a half-run higher than his career ERA (4.27 ERA, 4.91 xFIP), and has one pitch, which is barely that good. He also can’t keep the baseball in the yard, at all.
Rodriguez was a fun story for 2018, but anyone who watched him knew that it wasn’t going to be a long-term thing. Webb shows a lot of promise, and there’s a lot more to his ability (he was actually drafted as a pitcher) than D-Rod.
Point is: Logan Webb isn’t getting moved in a trade for a rental.
Boe Jiden
Obviously, money does talk. But winning matters immensely to star players. Their legacies are completely defined by winning a ring. If the money is same between the giants and another contender (or even if the money is less from a team in a state that doesn’t insanely tax people like CA does), star players aren’t choosing the giants right now. Because the giants aren’t a good baseball team.
Giants will indeed have boatloads to spend soon. I’ll be shocked if any of the big SS class or other stud free agents are willingly choose to play for such a mediocre team.
SFGiants402
Obviously, if the money is the same, they’ll choose the immediate contender.
The point you’re commenting on doesn’t involve a scenario where the money is the same, it involves where a bad team offers significantly more than a contender.
With all the factors regarding the financial state of the game, players are more likely to take the top offer than they are to leave money on the table.
jimthegoat
@Horatio be careful or he’ll accuse you of saying the Giants passed up on Gleyber Torres for Madison Bumgarner and then go into hiding when you call his obvious straw-man out.
TonyGwynnSD19
Pato349 nailed it here. Frisco fans keep screaming SPEND MONEY. They are stuck in some sort of time warp. That is Not how you build a winning organization in 2020. Farhan Zaidi is a smart guy. He’ll stick to his plan. He’s improved their farm system but it’s still just league average. And they don’t have any potential impact arms. They are 3-5 years away from being legit
pato349
I’m not going to be happy waiting another 3-5 years in hopes that the prospects develop into stars and form the core of this team. None of the prospects we have are guarantees minus Luciano and if all of our eggs are in the prospects/dumpster dives basket, then what will we be left with if they don’t work out?
If Farhan doesn’t have this team in the playoffs by 2022 they need to move on. Its glaringly obvious that they brought him in to lower the payroll and hopefully develop the farm system but nobody gets 5-7 years to build a team these days. Results need to be there or they should simply move on if he can’t figure it out by then.
Howie415
Thankfully, you are not running the Giants. They would be a horrible mess. You are all over the place. They wouldn’t sniff .500 for several decades.
A'sfaninLondonUK
@pato349
“None of the prospects we have are guarantees minus Luciano and if all of our eggs are in the prospects/dumpster dives basket, then what will we be left with if they don’t work out?”
Answer: My team – Oakland – on a cyclical basis.
Re – Farhan “Its glaringly obvious that they brought him in to lower the payroll and hopefully develop the farm system but nobody gets 5-7 years to build a team these days. Results need to be there or they should simply move on if he can’t figure it out by then.”
Thing is that you’d agree they were way too loyal & rewarding (and understandably so) to the 2010-2014 dynasty/clutch winners. Who other than the Panda DIDN’T get a big extension/renewal? And many of those contracts are only just off the books or coming to a conclusion. So a payroll reduction is pretty much inevitable…
I’d trust Zaidi because the Dodgers have won on the house he built.
And it’s a fine house with a nice pool, an arboretum of gherkin/pickle trees, some lovely chlamydia bushes and a delightful double fronted garage framed by forsythia…
Need to leave work, permanently…
Chief Two Hands
You are kidding yourself if you think Zaidi “built” anything with the Dodgers. They were successful before he was hired and he had zero impact on the organization while he was there. That was all Friedman.
Hew Hefty
they are 3-5 years away from being right where they are now. A couple good players but mostly nothing special.
Chief Two Hands
Just to clarify, Zaidi didn’t make any decisions with the Dodgers. He was basically little more than a glorified intern for Friedman, and didn’t really have any impact at all.
SFGiants402
Well that’s patently false, and utterly ridiculous.
It’s well documented that Zaidi played a significant role in helping the Dodgers become the team they are today.
Chief Two Hands
Lmao no, it is not. That is just something delusional Giants fans want to be true. You clearly have no idea about Zaidi’s role with the Dodgers. Try supporting your fictional claim…you won’t be able to find anything to back it up. Such a typical ignorant Giants fan. At least you people are consistent.
SFGiants402
latimes.com/sports/dodgers/la-sp-dodgers-zaidi-gia…
Here’s an article for you.
Not that I’m accusing you of knowing how to read, Chief Two Hands, but really, it’s for everyone else who has some brain cells to rub together.
SFGiants402
“Zaidi brought “creativity,” Friedman said. “Work ethic. Just the ability to connect with people. Extremely talented. Someone who has obviously made a huge impact for us in the last few years.””
But yeah, according to Chief Foot-in-Mouth, Zaidi just sat around and played minesweeper during his time in LA.
Oh, wait, he had a specific role and tasks assigned to him?
“As general manager, Zaidi’s portfolio ranged from analytics to trade negotiations to amateur scouting”
Now, off you go, you silly troll.
Chief Two Hands
Sounds like Friedman just being nice to his friend. The Dodgers were perennial division champions before Zaidi was hired and that continues now that he is gone. As for Muncy, he didn’t become a solid hitter until he got to the Dodgers, and he isn’t the only player the Dodgers have turned around. Justin Turner, Chris Taylor, Enrique Hernandez, etc. Like I said, Zaidi is not responsible at all for the Dodgers’ success. They had it before him, they have it now that he is gone and they would have had it during the time he was with them had he never been hired. That entire article really just sounds like Friedman supporting him on his way out. You will see, though…Giants fans will be calling for Zaidi’s head well before the Giants are a legitimate threat in the NL West. Even with an article that clearly aims to build Zaidi up, only one move could be mentioned as support.
Chief Two Hands
It also speaks volumes that the Dodgers haven’t even bothered to replace Zaidi. The reason is simple…Friedman calls all the shots and Zaidi was completely unnecessary.
pato349
The only credit Zaidi could claim while with the doyers is lowering their payroll. His eye for talent is still very unproven. The Giants had payroll issues and thus turned to Zaidi to be the guy to lower their payroll. Anything else he accomplished while cutting costs was going to be frosting on the cake. When they don’t make the playoffs after 2022 they will fire him and blame the lack of success on him even though he will have technically completed his objective while in charge.
Why it is so hard for others to see this fact is puzzling. His track record says it all. Started with the A’s where they didnt have any money and then went to the doyers to lower their payroll. The Giants had payroll issues so they hired him. What else has he done to prove he actually knows how to build a team? Other GM’s don’t seem to care to deal with him, he has been pretty much absent from the FA and international FA markets, and his drafts are uninspiring.
Thats the message I have been posting from the start so not sure why I am “all over the place” and if I am commenting on this site its pretty clear I’m not GM material. I am however not a blind moron and since I live in a free country I will continue to give my opinions how I see them. If you can’t respond with a sound argument against the points I am making then why waste your time responding at all?
Howie415
@pato349 What are you talking about? Your opinion doesn’t match reality. In the last International signing period, they signed 50 players. You really believe Donovan Solano, Yastrzemski, and Gausman have been busts. Bailey and Harrison project to be solid to elite players. Getting Will Wilson for nothing was a coup. I really don’t know what you expect. Sure, good ahead and have an opinion. Just make sure it matches reality.
Richard H.
Didn’t Zaidi offer truckloads of cash for Harper? I think if it’s the right player at the right time, Zaidi will pay whatever is necessary
holecamels35
Re-sign your good players they say, they’ll be bargains they say.
These contracts all look like straight up crap. Imagine if Tampa still had Longoria who was a franchise cornerstone at one time.
SignWongTradeSolano
They were tied with the Brewers last year but lost because of tiebreaker rules, the team has some potential. Solano needs to be traded, keep Yaz as he seems to be taking the late-bloomer Justin Turner type route. Flores can platoon with Belt at 1B which leaves us to sign a 2B (Wong would boost defense) and a SP (Taijuan Walker would be ideal)
SFGiants402
For what it’s worth, Yastrzemski was about same age (technically younger) when he began his resurgence as Justin Turner was in 2014, and just a year older than when Muncy began his.
Hew Hefty
Giants need to be a dark horse for Springer.
They have a hole in CF, Springer would compliment Yaz well and he rakes in LA.
BlueSkies_LA
The Giants were a bit better than expected last year, but nearly qualifying for a postseason in which more teams did than didn’t, and with a losing record besides, probably isn’t the greatest measure of performance. Zaidi has some strategic decision to make but since they can be punted to midseason he probably will. My guess is he tinkers around the edges this winter, and if it doesn’t all come together by midseason he can take advantage of some great trading opportunities.
Monkey’s Uncle
Trevor Gott allowed 7 homers in only 11 2/3 innings pitched this year? That’s… umm… impressive.
dpsmith22
must be nice to have that kind of money. only 1 guy under contract is a solid contributor. yet I bet in 2 years the giants are battling in it again.
davemlaw
Good wrap up on the Giants as the team can go in a bunch of directions.
As the team transitions from it’s veterans after 2021 they need to supplement the team with players with an eye toward 2022. Relying on prospects to fill the void could mean a very bad year in 2022; that’s why spending heavily on free agents this offseason and potentially going over the $210M luxury tax threshold should be considered. Knowing so much salary is coming off and budgeting that in over a 2 year and 5 year plan makes the process more palatable.
I expect the Giants to continue on their search for value in free agency, meaning not going over or approaching $210M in salaries for 2021. But it will be interesting to see how the Giants allocate their resources and use their big market status to their advantage in a “depressed spending” free agency off season.
rememberthecoop
Waive Hand. Nice MP.
Angels & NL West
I would expect Zaidi to follow the Friedman blueprint for long term success vs the Dombrowski model for short term success.
Based on his accomplishments to date, I would not bet against him.
jimthegoat
What is it with Giants fans and hurling insults and busting out straw man arguments like “Oh you think they could have gotten Gleyber Torres for Bumgarner?” every time someone suggests Farhan screwed up in not trading his rental players? This isn’t the first time I’ve seen this and I imagine it won’t be the last.
SFGiants402
Look, we’re sorry you’re not intelligent enough to understand exaggeration and mockery, but don’t get mad at anyone here that you can’t swim in the deep end.
You are the one who brought up the criticism of the Giants not trading Bumgarner and Gausman. We simply want you to inform us what they turned down in the process. That’s it.
If you don’t know what the offers were, then it’s probably best to not make outlandish comments based on something you’re completely clueless about.
And don’t be mad when people mock you for doing so.
jimthegoat
And I’m sorry you can’t make a real argument and have to resort to logical fallacies and ad hominems.
The Giants would have been better off waiving Kevin Gausman. He’s not going to reject the QO. Bumgarner got them a draft pick though so you might have a case on him.
SFGiants402
For someone who “invested in some fields that did quite well and I made enough money to live comfortably to live on by the time I was 33.” you sure have zero comprehension of basic economics.
You don’t trade something for nothing. Ever. That doesn’t happen.
But keep playing make believe about investing in something. Perhaps investing in an education would be a good start, you certainly have all the time in the world!
jimthegoat
@SfGiants the Giants already did trade something for nothing. They could have gotten SOMETHING for Gausman, as evidenced by the Yankees trying to trade for him. But they didn’t trade him and instead took the nothing they will now get.
Maybe learn how to make a rational, well-thought out argument without throwing out insults before talking about other people’s comprehension.
jimthegoat
Adding on, it is possible to disagree with people without insulting them. You’ll learn that when you get older. At least I hope.
mrnatewalter
LOL. It’s MikeEmbleton!!!
This poor guy tried the exact same arguments not too long ago and he failed then, just like he’s failing now. (I sense a theme).
Mike/Jim, do me a favor and try your argument on FG. Let’s see how it goes there with a crowd you’re not going to succeed against.
jimthegoat
@mrnatewalter Well Mike was right on the money then.
And the people on Fangraphs are pretty straight numbers driven. They are not going to side with a rebuilding GM who holds onto rental players because “you don’t trade something for nothing” or “they’re probably getting extensions” or whatever other platitudes I’m sure you will throw out there.
By the way, how is your assertion that Bumgarner absolutely wouldn’t leave SF going?
mrnatewalter
So go take the argument there. If you’re so confident the smart folks there will side with you, let’s see it.
Craig Edwards even wrote an article about the Giants’ offseason this morning, so there’s a fresh one for you.
Go for it.
jimthegoat
@mrnatewalter address your assertion about Bumgarner staying!
Also, Craig Edwards never said anything about whether or not the Giants should have traded Gausman so not sure how that is relevant here.
mrnatewalter
Just go throw it in the comments. It’s an article about if the Giants are ready to contend.
It’s Giants related. Give it a shot.
mrnatewalter
And you’re right, Bumgarner didn’t stay. And for that, the Giants, as well as many fans, are thankful. They seemed to have dodged a bullet.
Does it get your rocks off to have people explain comments from over 12 months ago, or is it just goats that get your rocks off?
jimthegoat
@mrnatewalter That’s not the point. You swore up and down that Bumgarner would never ever DARE leave SF. Well he did.
Gausman will accept the QO so he’s not leaving SF yet. But they could have gotten him for less than $18.9m. This is a guy who was non-tendered a year ago and had one good shortened season in a pitcher’s park.
Cashford64
But they are getting something for him. They are either getting a compensatory draft pick or another year of him pitching in their rotation. That’s in addition to the month of September they got to keep him for in their playoff push.
jimthegoat
@Cashford64 Gausman in the rotation for $18.9 isn’t really what I would call value. He’s for sure accepting the QO so that’s what they are getting.
And the Giants literally finished below .500. Not exactly the 1927 Yankees there.
jimthegoat
What will happen first: Donald T. (you get a pending for using his full last name lol) conceding the election or @mrnatewalter admitting that he was wrong about Bumgarner staying in SF?
I’ve got my money on Donald…
Cashford64
Not great value, but they can easily afford it. If every contract on their books was like that, then they are in serious trouble, like the situation they found themselves in back in 2017. But right now they are getting a lot of value from several players making the league minimum, which affords them to overpay for a few players they want.
Anyway, it’s a gamble. They could have traded him, but then you’re limited to what players other teams are willing to offer. Do you accept something you don’t really want? Or do you hang on to him, then offer him the QO? Zaidi is already on record saying he’d like to have Gausman back, so if he accepts, then great. If not, then they get to choose who they want themselves from the draft.
In the cases of Bumgarner and Smith last year, well they obviously traded everyone of value from the roster EXCEPT Bungarner and Smith, and those two just happened to be the only two that would be tied to the QO that off-season, so it should be perfectly obvious what the plan was, and it had nothing to do with sentimentality. I guarantee this will further proven when Crawford’s, Belt’s and Posey’s contracts reach their end.
hopper15
“The Giants would have been better off waiving Kevin Gausman.”
How do you waive a player that’s a free agent?
jimthegoat
@hopper15 I meant waiving him back in early September.
jimthegoat
@Cashford64 it doesn’t matter whether they can afford it or not. The applicable question really is whether they can get his kind of production or better for less $ elsewhere. If the answer is yes, they’re not going to pay Gausman all that money just for funsies.
Oh and there’s no way in heck Gausman declines the QO. If he does he’ll wind up like Keuchel or Kimbrel.
hopper15
Well that makes even less sense. Who waives their best starting pitcher.
SFGiants402
This assumes this kid makes sense.
At first I thought he was a troll, now I’m just realizing he’s a mindless dolt.
jimthegoat
@hopper15 it’s happened in the past. And it beats keeping him around to cost them $ and hurt their draft position.
jimthegoat
@SFGiants402 you aren’t making straw man arguments about trading him for Gleyber Torres yet?
jimthegoat
@mrnatewalter I should have known you would go into hiding when I exposed your dubious assertions about Bumgarner.
But for what it’s worth, the President who must not be named apparently plans to contest the election in every state he lost so you’ve still got a chance to beat him…
jimthegoat
@mrnatewalter…
Kiddo? Um excuse me? I’m willing to bet that I’m at least twice as old as you. And I’m not autistic but do you know who is? The creator of Pokémon. So if you are going to run around using autistic as an insult you better not have ever played those games at any point in your life.
And if you are going to lay it all so vehemently on the line and be a d-bag to everyone who doesn’t think like you, you can rest assured that you are going to get called on it when you get it wrong.
Have a nice night and try to work on not being so arrogant.
mrnatewalter
I didn’t use autistic as an insult. Based on how you’re acting and responding to people, you seem autistic. If you’re not I apologize. But you’re not acting like a normal person on this website. You clearly basic social skills.
And if you claim you’re 33 & retired, then you’re nowhere near “twice my age”. You’d actually be younger than me.
So now, you have two choices: acknowledge you were wrong about my age, or admit you’re lying about your age. Those are your options, don’t you dare think of running and hiding from it, you pathetic little coward.
jimthegoat
“And if you claim you’re 33 & retired, then you’re nowhere near “twice my age”. You’d actually be younger than me.”
I said I retired at 33 and that I retired in 2000. Learn to read. And I call b.s. on you being older than 33.
“Those are your options, don’t you dare think of running and hiding from it, you pathetic little coward.
Oh yeah, he mad.
mrnatewalter
LOL. You’re still not “twice my age”, even by that math alone. So yeah, you were wrong.
I fully expect to not run and hide and admit you were WRONG. Actually, I don’t care if you’re wrong, you’re always wrong. And I’m mocking you for insisting I apologize for being wrong about Bumgarner (LOL).
So, will you apologize for being wrong, or will you run and hide from it?
I think I know which option you take.
jimthegoat
I’m mocking you for being wrong about Bumgarner because you clearly haven’t learned a thing. You’re still pushing the exact same narrative except with Gausman now.
And let’s be honest, it’s pretty clear by the way that you talk and act that you aren’t older than 33.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
Will both of you grow up?
mrnatewalter
You literally can’t forget a comment made 15 months ago? You’re not mocking me, you’re infatuated with me.
You’re infatuated with someone you think is more than half your age, which would make me in my 20s, or younger…. yikes. (Thank goodness for you, I’m not in my teens or 20s).
But if it’s so important for you to remember a comment made on a baseball website over a year ago, I guess I can’t stop you. But you have to acknowledge that it’s super creepy and a super weird.
I’m not into you, just so you’re aware.
jimthegoat
@mrnatewalter so now you’re just going to call me infatuated with you because I exposed your debilitating wrong calls about Bumgarner? Heck, I wouldn’t have even gone there if you had not chosen to be a d-bag to everyone who doesn’t think like you and shove your opinion down their throats.
mrnatewalter
No, I’m saying you’re infatuated with me because obviously something that was said WELL OVER A YEAR AGO is still very much on your mind, and you can’t seem to let it go.
It’s okay, you can be infatuated with me. You don’t need to feel offended about me noticing it.
I just need you to know that I don’t feel the same way about you. But if I make you happy, then it is what it is.
hopper15
“it’s happened in the past.”
When’s the last time that’s happened?
I’ve certainly heard of team trading their best starting pitcher but waiving your best starter pitcher and getting nothing in return. I can’t remember the last time that’s happened.
jimthegoat
@mrnatewalter the fact that you still haven’t addressed the issue over a year later makes it worse, not better
mrnatewalter
Yeah, I’d recommend you giving it a rest and getting some sleep. Maybe see a therapist to get over this obsession of yours.
I’m not interested in you, but I appreciate your passionate pursuit.
Enrico Pallazzo
I think the main thing I have learned from reading this article and especially the comments is that Its best to just leave these giants fans alone. For some reason they get very upset at non giants fans commenting on articles about the giants. Never seen a group of fans with so little sense of humor about their team during a period of losing. Seems like they don’t want to hear anything unless its that they have an amazing team with no holes who will somehow be competing with the Padres and Dodgers next year. As a Mariners fan I know about unending disappointment and how to realistically assess my team even if they suck. Seems like giants fans have a lot to learn in that department. Anticipating lots of rude comments about how stupid I am and how awful the mariners are. thanks for keeping it classy and intelligent sf fans.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
Many of the “anti-Giants” comments on here aren’t serious people. They are trolls who just want to get a rise out of people.
There are many on this site who can come in and respectfully have a conversation regarding the Giants’ problems going forward. It’s evident that most of the people on this site just want to be ridiculous and inflammatory.
There have been several respectful folks who come in and talk about the Giants on this article or others, and it’s not necessarily “glowing”, but the comments are made in good faith and with the intention of having a serious conversation.
Enrico Pallazzo
Lots of trolls to be sure. Also lots of legit points being made that are immediately met with insults and very illogical arguments.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
Not trying to ignore it, but I’m genuinely curious what legit points were met with insults on here?
Jimthegoat, DubsDynasty, TonyGwynnSD19 make troll comments and those are the ones that seemed to stir the pot on here. SFGIants402 has some good points, but then gets triggered over silly things.
You have to admit, there are significantly more unserious/troll posts on here than there are serious posts.
jimthegoat
@JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt Not sure what’s so trollish about saying Zaidi should have taken what he could get for Gausman and Smyly but oooooooooooohkaaaaaaaaaaaaaay…
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
It’s not what you said, but how you said it, and how, after MULTIPLE people explained to you why that’s not an accurate statement, you engaged in obnoxious, trollish behavior.
Please, though, don’t talk to me unless you’re willing to be an adult. You’re acting like a child.
jimthegoat
@JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt hey the types of comments you put out there are the types of comments you are going to get back. I was being civil at first but then Howie, SFGiants and Nate decided the appropriate thing to do was to hurl insults at everyone who dared to say anything negative about Farhan or the Giants. I probably should have disengaged but I was bored. It happens.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
You don’t have to attend every argument you’re invited to.
And you’re not free and clear. I pointed out why I disagreed and you responded with extremely juvenile responses.
So, no, you weren’t being civil.
Enrico Pallazzo
I agree. Didn’t think you were being a troll with that comment. Giants fans just can’t seem to accept anything other than a glowing compliment for their team.
jimthegoat
So if people make objectively wrong replies to my comments (like “No one trades value for players that are about to be free agents”) I’m supposed to just not correct them?
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
The trollish behavior wasn’t the initial comment, but the unwillingness to have an adult conversation with anyone that disagree with Jimthegoat.
Let’s call it out where it needs to be called out, Jimthegoat isn’t willing to let people disagree with him, either. So I’m okay if you don’t like the Giants, or if you think they stink—you’re entitled to your own opinion—but do’t come here expecting to trash everyone and everything, and then be mad when others respond not so kindly.
Jimthegoat is a troll. He knows he’s being a troll. And if he doesn’t, well, now you know.
jimthegoat
TIL that daring to disagree with anything Farhan Zaidi does is “trolling”
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
The fact that you think you’re being called a troll because you disagree with Farhan Zaidi is your problem.
You’re a troll because you refuse to let anyone disagree with you and because you become ridiculously juvenile over silly things. If you’re not a troll, then grow up.
“Sign up for MLBTR”, they said. “There’s good baseball discussion”, they said.
jimthegoat
@JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt “Let?” I don’t get to not or not let anyone disagree with me. And neither do you. But I’m going to back up my comments with logic and reason, correct anything that is objectively wrong and if you are going to go with the ad hominems like our mutual friend SFGiants402 did it won’t end well for you.
Boe Jiden
Here’s your giants off-season outlook in a very practical fashion:
If we did a draft consisting of only current 26 man rosters of NL west teams, how many giants would be selected in top 30? Definitely none. What about top 50? Maybe 2. Top 75? 2-3 I’d guess. In the top 100 of this hypothetical draft, giants would probably have 6-7 players. That’s not good. The giants are a bad baseball team because they don’t have good players. It’s pretty simple.
So here’s the giants off-season outlook: things are pretty bleak until they get actual good players.
As stated by fangraphs today: The Giants’ problem when it comes to building a contender isn’t that they lack decent players; it’s that they have a bunch of slightly below-average players projected as full-season starters.
Jean Matrac
Horatio Jones:
I’d say you aren’t good at math. With 30 teams the average of players in the top 100 per team is 3.33. So 6 or 7 would be much better than average. Now I realize that talent is not evenly spread so the 3.33 number does not reflect reality, it’s just a data point. But if the really good teams have far more than 6 or 7 that leaves the vast majority on MLB teams sorely wanting.
If 6 or 7 is not good, what number is? And is 6 or 7 not good or merely mediocre? Whatever, the math makes no sense.
Boe Jiden
And I’d say you aren’t good at reading. I said a draft of the NL west teams. Try again.
jimthegoat
Boom goes the dynamite
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
Limiting it to the NL West actually makes the math LESS favorable for your argument, not more.
In the top 30, there’s an average of 6 per team. In the top 50, it’s 10. In the top 75? 15.
So in the top 75, you suggest the Giants have, at most, 5 players, whereas the average is 15?
That means the other teams have an average of SEVENTEEN (17) players in the top 75, while the Giants have only 5?
I’m sorry, but that’s not a serious suggestion, at all. Statistically, that assumes that multiple NL West teams’ bench and bullpen players are better than the Giants starting position players and starting pitchers.
Yeah, I’m not buying it, at all.
Jean Matrac
Horatio Jones:
Yes you’re right. Sorry, I missed that .
That said though, I don’t necessarily agree with the 6 or 7 number. There are 5 teams with 26 man rosters, that’s 130. Even assuming that every player on the Dodgers and Padres is selected which is doubtful, that leaves 48 players among the bottom three teams.
If the Giants have only 7, that means the Rox and D’backs,split the remaining 41. I might remind you that they finished 3 and 4 games, respectively, behind the Giants. Not sure I believe that those teams have 14 or 15 better players than the Giants.
I have the feeling you pulled yours numbers out of you know where.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
Of only NL west teams (130 players), you’re suggesting not one would Giant is in the top 30 in the NL West?
For starters, I want to know your top 30. And I want to know why you wouldn’t include Yaz or Brandon Belt into the top 30, when they are very much each in the top 50 players in ALL of baseball.
To suggest that zero Giants would be in the top 30 of a pool of 130 players is a pretty outlandish suggestion.
Boe Jiden
1. Betts
2. Tatis
3. Machado
4. Arenado
5. Bellinger
6. Buehler
7. Seager
8. Story
9. Lamet
10. Clevinger
11. Smith
12. Grisham
13. Marquez
14. Galen
15. Muncy
16. Blackmon
17. Pham
18. Kershaw
19. Hosmer
20. Urias
21. Turner (assuming he resigns)
22. May
23. Cronenworth
24. Myers
25. Taylor
26. Freeland
27. Senzatela
28. Belt
29. Pomeranz
30. Walker
So I did have Belt at 28. There’s a giant in my very hypothetical and of course subjective draft. Obviously, anyone can quibble with this. I frankly don’t care what your opinion is and I don’t care if you think my opinion is garbage. I’m bored and baseball is fun to talk about.
Point is, even if you happen to think belt and I’m assuming Yaz should be higher on this list, i think it would be stretch to rank any current giant in this group.
Hence, the giants aren’t a good team because they don’t have good players.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
Yastrzemski was a top 10 hitter in all of baseball this year, but he’s not even in the top 30 players in his own division?
It’s good that you’re willing to acknowledge this is subjective, I’d argue it’s ignorant at best, biased at worst, and that you’re intentionally leaving out San Francisco players to try and get a rise out of Giants fans.
And your last statement is patently ridiculous. Just because YOU can’t understand that there are really good players on the Giants doesn’t mean there aren’t.
But I guess that’s your opinion. My opinion is that you’re horribly wrong.
Boe Jiden
*any other giant besides belt or Yaz in top 30 of NL west teams. And to some comment above, yes I do believe the bench players on the dodgers and maybe the padres are better than pretty much every giant.
It’s definitely not a stretch to say the giants don’t have a single pitcher in top 100 players in NL west unless Gausman resigns. And even if he does resign, my goodness, that pitching staff. Woof. It’s just plain terrible.
Boe Jiden
Johnjaso:
I don’t care what you think. You aren’t changing my opinion. The giants aren’t a good team. They have a position group full of season over 30 year olds all destined to regress. The pitching is pitiful. End of story. Giants aren’t good.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
It’s your list. If you want to leave obviously good players off of it, that’s your choice.
I wouldn’t encourage you to apply for MLB Front Office jobs, but I would encourage you to invite me whenever you start your fantasy baseball league. I have a feeling you don’t do a great job at evaluating players.
Enrico Pallazzo
Top 10 by what metric? Batting average? Homers? RBIs?slugging? He’s a top ten giants hitter. No doubt
Boe Jiden
Johnjaso
I have no plans for applying to any job in mlb. I don’t play fantasy baseball because I’d rather watch the team I like and not be worried about constantly watching the waiver wire and DL to make sure I’m playing the right guys.I’m a fan who watches and baseball, including a lot of the giants. They aren’t a good team. It’s true Yaz was a top 10 hitter last season. But he was a top 10 hitter because of 3 hot weeks. I don’t think he’d be a starter in LA or SD. He’s a nice story. It’s a shame Baltimore never gave him a chance. But if he is a top 2 player on your team, that’s a pretty depressing thing.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
He was #10 in wRC+, #7 in WAR, #11 in wOBA.
To suggest that a player who is top 10 in WAR in baseball isn’t a top 30 player in his own division is a VERY curious decision.
Jean Matrac
Horatio Jones:
Your opinion doesn’t fit with actual stats.
Team OPS+:
LAD – 121
SDP – 119
SFG – 115
Col – 87
AZ – 80
Team ERA+
LAD – 141
SDP – 112
AZ – 96
Col – 95
SFG – 93
It’s obvious why the Dodgers are WS champs, and where the Giants need to improve, but that’s beside the point. The Giants are clearly a much better hitting team than either the Rox or D’backs, where the delta in pitching is much closer.
Your list is clearly biased as well. For example, Charlie Blackmon will be 34 and was barely an above hitter. And Tommy Pham with his 74 OPS+ does not rank higher than any of 4 Giant’s outfielders.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
Mike Yastrzemski: “One good month” “Everyone figured him out in September”; literally a top 10 player in baseball… not good enough for the top 30
Charlie Blackmon: Didn’t have a single month better than Yastrzemski, a VERY bad September. Ranks #16.
I’ve got an aching feeling this list has some clear biases. I don’t know why, though.
Jean Matrac
Horatio jones: “They have a position group full of season over 30 year olds all destined to regress.”
Dickerson was the old man in the OF and he was 30 this season. Yaz was 29, Slater 27, and Dubon 25. That is where much of the offense came from and the beginning of a core. Yes, the IF was older, but those contracts are up soon. Justin Turner is older than every infielder on the Giants.
And unless you are totally new to baseball, you should know regression is a hard thing to predict, and it could happen to every team in baseball.
Boe Jiden
Yaz is 30. Slater is a part time player at best if, and that’s a big if, he can stay healthy. That leaves Dubon whose under 30. He’s a nice player, but nothing that’s a key building block. Hope you guys all have a great night!!! Giants aren’t a good baseball team. Have fun living in the delusion that they are!! They probably will have a much better team in 2-3 years, but what do I know? What do any of us know? Probably not nearly as much as we think. Let’s remember that in the end, arguing over this stuff is purely a means to passing the time. Just because the giants aren’t very good right now doesn’t mean you have to take it personally. What the giants or any team does has nothing to do with anyone here. It’s entertainment. Later.
mrnatewalter
It’s certainly good that you don’t care if we think your opinion is garbage, because we ALL think your opinion is garbage.
And I’m sure if you search deep down, even you believe your opinion is garbage.
mrnatewalter
LOL. Horatio makes a putrid effort to troll, when it doesn’t go the way he thought it would, he bolts and then challenges the character of anyone who disagrees with him.
What a clown.
Bye bro.
Boe Jiden
And to johnjaso:
Of course it has bias!!!! All of this has bias. Any list I come up with is not gospel. All of us are completely subjective based on the laundry we root for. Pretty naive of you to take anything seriously you read on a comments section. My very biased and subjective is that the giants aren’t good. The numbers also tend to back that up. Giants current roster is projected to have 21.9 WAR on next season as currently constructed. That’s smack dab in the middle of the Mariners and Orioles. Hence, I don’t see a very particularly good baseball team. Every national ranking I’ve seen that is way more objective than you or has the giants in the 22-25 range. I am of course biased and subjective in my rankings. I just tend to think that the baseball world outside of the 415/510/925 bubble see’s roughly what I see: an aging position group (having 6 out of the 8 over 30 makes it a majority) that isn’t likely to repeat or improve past performances and a pitching staff that is frankly just awful. That’s my opinion. You have yours. Baseball is the best. Hope we get as much of it as we can in 2021.
Boe Jiden
Mr. Nate Walker:
Whose character did I challenge? It certainly wasn’t my intent. Love to know how you think I did that.
mrnatewalter
To dip out and pretend like anyone who disagrees with you is “taking it personally” is pathetic and low.
No one is taking it “personally”. We simply disagree with you, and think you’re out of your mind with your opinion. You’re allowed to think whatever you want, but you’ll certainly be questioned, challenged, and maybe even face a bit of razzing for it.
That’s not us taking it personally.
You didn’t make a serious post. You wanted to rile people up. And when you were called out on the lack of seriousness and the ridiculousness, suddenly, it’s US that are taking it personally?
Lulz.
Boe Jiden
Mr Nate Walker
I felt like a made a serious post about how I don’t think the giants are a very good team. I shared data that believe supports my claims. There is of course lots of ways data can be used to support arguments each way. I didn’t call anyone a clown. You did that sir. I shared a baseball opinion on a baseball website. That’s all. I insulted the giants. Not anyone here.
mrnatewalter
And when people tried to point out how they disagreed, you responded with hostility and arrogance.
“I don’t care what you think. You aren’t changing my opinion. The giants aren’t a good team.”
And no, I called you a “clown” because you challenged the character of people who disagreed with you. You felt that disagreeing with you meant we were taking this personally. We weren’t. We were simply telling you that you’re wrong about your rankings.
YOU were the one who couldn’t handle such a disagreement. That’s why I called you a clown.
Boe Jiden
And I said multiple times that my rankings are my own and I think it’s fine to disagree with him or question them because they are of course biased and subjective. I’m not questioning anyone’s character by saying I don’t care what they think. That has nothing to do with character. I have zero problem handling disagreement. Disagree all you want.
JohnJasoJingleHeimerSchmidt
It’s sad that a player with an adjusted 7.2 WAR is the best player on the Giants?
Yaz would be the best player on A LOT of baseball teams, for what it’s worth. And I bet you’d move heaven and earth for a shot of him being on your team. I know the GM of whatever team you cheer for would pick him up tomorrow if they could have him for nothing.
Unfortunately, they weren’t smart enough to grab him. They had no idea they could get a 7-win player for Tyler Herb.
If the Giants made the playoffs, Mike Yastrzemski would 100% be in the MVP conversation, for what it’s worth. And you can’t even be bothered to place him the top 30 players in the division.
It’s probably a good thing you’re not playing fantasy baseball, it’s very evident you wouldn’t be good at it, as you clearly can’t recognize a top 10 baseball player.
Boe Jiden
I’m the one whose been called names and insulted because people feel the need to do so because I’ve said less than flattering things about their baseball team. I’ve said no such things about any of you because I don’t know you.
mrnatewalter
Lulz. You made an unserious and asinine post and got taken to task for it, and rightly so. Then, you couldn’t handle it and tried to shut down anyone from disagreeing with you, or even a willingness to have a conversation by saying things like, “I don’t care what you think” to people who express disagreement.
Just admit, you weren’t interested in having a conversation, and just wanted to rile people up with a stupid post.
Boe Jiden
I wanted to share my opinion. Whether people get riled up or not is completely on them. No one has to read or care what I say. Can I only post here if I care what others post? Is that the point of all this? Am I not allowed to just share an opinion? I don’t think it’s trolling to express an opinion that is backed up by the numbers at Fangraphs and by respected baseball writers.
mrnatewalter
There’s not a single baseball writer who would agree with your premise that the Giants have ONE player in the top 30 in their division.
Your opinion is backed up by nothing except your own desire that the Giants were worse than they are. And if you are truly reading Fangraphs and watch as much baseball as you claim you do, then your list is even more baffling.
And for what it’s worth, you weren’t trying to state an opinion. An opinion is, “I think Avengers is a stupid and overrated movie”. Saying something like “the Giants are a bad baseball team”, which is something that can be measured, is not an opinion.
You made a statement completely removed from reality and from facts. You still have that right (thanks, 1st Amendment!), but that doesn’t make you correct or worth listening to.
It’s a good thing you don’t care what we have to say. I don’t think that’s true, but it’s whatevs.
Have a good night, and Go Giants!
Boe Jiden
Ok, that’s probably fair. I’ll own that. The giants probably have 3-4 in the top 30, probably same as Dbacks and Rockies, with rest dominated by dodgers and padre. It’s an irrelevant list. It doesnt mean anything and it’s definitely that not worth all the time wasted in this exchange. My opinion is they aren’t a good team. Fangraphs backs that up I believe. I’ll send the link if you want. Of course, the games are played on the field, not on spreadsheets or comment sections. We’ll see what happens.