After the designated hitter was used in both leagues in 2020, it remains to be seen if the National League will again have a DH next season or if NL pitchers will get one more crack at the plate. Commissioner Rob Manfred recently said that all rule changes made for the 2020 season wouldn’t carry through to 2021, and such ideas like a universal DH would have to be settled with input from both the league and the players’ union.
There has been some level of discussion on this front, ESPN.com’s Jeff Passan writes, with Major League Baseball offering the players implementation of the DH in both the National and American Leagues in exchange for the MLBPA signing off on an expanded playoff structure in 2021.
As Passan puts it, “understandably, the players don’t find that to be a particularly equitable trade.” Bringing the DH to both leagues would open up more employment opportunities and contract money for position players, as NL teams would need to address their lineup depth and veteran players with less defensive mobility would suddenly have more options. That said, the money available in an expanded DH market pales in comparison to the potential tens of millions in extra revenue the league would generate in TV revenue from extra playoff games. The format for this expanded postseason isn’t known; Manfred has floated the idea of a 14-team postseason in the past, rather than the 16-team format used in 2020.
It has long been assumed that the universal DH would eventually be implemented, perhaps as soon as the 2022 season since the current collective bargaining agreement between MLB and the Players Association is up after the 2021 campaign. However, with those CBA talks looming, negotiating even a one-year issue like a DH for the 2021 season inevitably leads into the tangled web of bigger-picture talks, like an expanded postseason.
This being said, the league’s offer may have been something of an “aim high” initial attempt just to see if the players would bite. Some executives tell Passan that they think the NL will have the designated hitter next season, with the MLBPA agreeing to a concession that isn’t more playoff teams.
Does baseball need more offense?
Yes, and fewer easy outs,sacrifices, unsuccessful sacrifice attempts and padding of pitcher statistics due to easy strikeouts.
Those that cry for a universal DH are the same that complain the games are too long.
Games could be shortened by removing the juiced ball, having reasonable stadium dimensions and most importantly limit pitching to 11 slots. Players are told to throw as hard as they can instead of learning their craft. Artificial home runs and no fear of striking out has ruined the game. In the next agreement, limit a pitching staff to 11 by 2023. Give everyone time to adjust. Staff was 10 in the 70s and Sparky Anderson had a staff of 9 for the 75 WS.
Hey genre99… Nice Strawman. The two opinions are unrelated.
@genre99, I’m an NL guy,
and I don’t want the DH. And, I love long games!
Yes, and that would be possible if players attempted to put the ball in play rather than swing from the heels. Strikeouts are killing the game.
Stop fixing the games. The whole Turner thing is obvious. Baseball knew he had COVID but wanted Dodgers to win so badly they looked the other way until Dodgers had a lead….
Dumb comment.
This comment is one stupid and has nothing to do with DH!
DH has nothing to do with baseball. If a player can’t play he shouldn’t be in the game.
Post less.
Lets have 9 DHs. That would be awesome. Why not have offensive and defensive squads? That would be awesome. Why not have designated pinch runners? Replacing all the Nelson Cruzs with Billy Hamiltons on the basepaths would be awesome..
Stupid comment
@Norm Chouinard
Reductio ad absurdum Norm.
Does baseball need .116/.145/.149 “hitting”?
Baseball needs to move all outfield walls back, to a minimum of 400’ from foul line to foul line. Then maybe baseball will be truly exciting again.
Lot’s of triples… I like it!
…..and the end of popup homers to right field at Yankee Stadium.
don’t forget fenway… p.s. it glad I’m not alone on the tribe front lol
There’s actually a few of us on this site. I tend to get the most grief, because I enjoy trolling on occasion. 🙂
and get rid of the Colorado Rockies stadium, It hurts players the next 2 series. The teams send pitchers ahead to Colorado to get accustomed to high altitude. Then send pitchers that won’t ‘r be used till the next series location. Need to research all the injuries caused by Colorado bl broken down pitchers and players..
People like to give a pass to older stadiums like Fenway but that’s the most ridiculous one if you ask me. A pop out is a home run and a home run is a double
A 400′ minimum outfield distance would require the removal of hundreds of seats. Not to mention turning the game on its ear.
Not 400′ to all fields of course, but check out many of the distance to stadiums.. especially NL from the 70’s.. 3 rivers, Riverfront.. Massive and not hitter friendly. Tiger stadium was I “believe” 440′ to dead center.
Sure there was the fenway and old yankee stadiums where balls flew, but most were definitely not HR friendly.
I definitely like variety to ballpark dimensions. It’s a quirk that sets baseball apart from other sports.
You can still have variety, even at 400’. Just want to make it harder to hit home runs. Return to the times when there were only a few legitimate power hitters, and get some speed back into the equation.
Turn the game on its ear. It’s becoming boring lately, with so many players trying to hit homers….and striking out at increasing rates. That’s why I love minor league games. The players there are focused on all aspects of the game.
As for having to remove seats? Not many teams are selling out games anymore, so no biggie there.
Good time to implement it then, as no one is using those seats.
Get rid of the shift which penalizes ground balls and contact.
With men on base today, it’s much better the hitter strike out than hit a ground ball.
There have always been shifts. The shortstop was originally an outfielder, until he got shifted to the infield.
You know what I’m talking about. Really?
Enforcing two infielders on the right side and two infielders on the left side would work wonders in making this a much much better game.
Or, batters could adapt and hit the other way.
And Ted William couldn’t do it against pitcher throwing in the mid 80s.
Right, just slap the ball the other way…. It’s so easy. Did you ever play this game beyond little league?
Hips ahead of hands, but slap it the other way.. Easy.
All I’m saying is, to quote Billy Beane, “Adapt or Die”.
Ted Williams could have hit it the other way, he just didn’t want to., according to him.
Freddie Freeman practices it and does it regularly in games.
He tried. It took him years. And that’s the best hitter who ever lived against pitchers who had trouble breaking 90.
And you are right, adapt of die. Baseball needs to adapt because the three true outcomes are killing this game. One way is to reward contact.
If the players could do it, they would have. But this isn’t golf where a golfer can hook or slice at will, this is baseball, and it’s insanely difficult to perfect one swing let along two.
Bhambrave, you say that as if to “adapt and hit the other way” is some easy thing. You know how boring the game is going to become when poking grounders the other way takes precedent over pulling for extra base hits (cuz you can’t do both at the same time)? Then the defense stops shifting and the whole league bats .180 with no power. Then what? They just re-adjust? It’s not that simple.
How about hitting doubles the other way, down the line into the vast open field.
Lets take Rod Carew for example. He won a batting title hitting zero HRs.
I bring this up for one reason, Rod Carew, one of the greatest hitters who ever lived, had trouble doing it both ways.
Players don’t have two swings. You can’t just pull a switch and slap the ball the other way.
I wouldn’t like a rule telling a team they can’t put defenders in the optimal spots to make outs. That’s like telling a hockey team they can’t pull the goalie to get more offense.
Requiring defenders to stay on a certain side of second would be unwieldy and would slow the game down even more. Could a manager challenge an out saying that the SS drifted over the line? Would there be video review?
Agree. Just another bad idea from Manfred.
The runner on base in extra innings is the worst of the lot.
I’m sure he’s got more. And they’re all about money, not the good of the game.
Why? They have rules about players playing in fair territory and where the catcher must position himself? Every sport has defensive positioning rules, including baseball.
As far as hockey, their two line passes, and there is a red line and two blue lines.
It seems kind of arbitrary to say you don’t like some defense positioning rules in baseball, and you don’t have an issue with basketball, football or hockey.
So you’d be ok with football saying a safety can’t play within 15 yards of the line of scrimmage? BTW, I don’t watch basketball or hockey, so I really shouldn’t comment on those sports.
Freddie Freeman ain’t no Ted Williams. Lol. Let that be the last time you group those two names together. Freedie is good, real good, but Ted was The Best. Period.
Why not limited it to 10 times per game. It allows strategy which is something people don’t want in the game
Agree here!Way to many shifts!
They wouldn’t shift if players bunted or stay back on the ball and drive it opposite
Get rid of the exaggerated shift.
@peanut:
Woosh! Right over your head.
Tribe is right. Triples and potential inside the parkers would make things more exciting. The problem is today’s modern parks will need millions in alterations to make it happen.
Blue Jays could push their fences back to the first deck facade and raise the fence to the concrete. Pushes the foul line dimensions to probably 345’ish.
Might also help the pitchers and keep them healthy if short bombs turn into fly outs.
I like the idea of a universal DH because I have watched pitchers hit, and for the most part… they can’t. That isn’t their fault, they spend a ton of time perfecting and practicing their craft, and most of them just don’t have the time. When a guy wakes up at 7:00 a.m goes to the track or beach or whatnot and warms up by doing light calisthenics till 10:00 a.m when he then goes to the gym and works out till 1:00- 1:30 p.m from there going home or out to eat lunch, and afterwards proceeding to throw a bullpen, once he wraps in up around 4:00 p.m he’s tired. Once you wrap down your physical work, then you can go home and watch videos, do yoga, or use whatever machines or devices you have to help heal up or prevent injury. A lot goes into pitching, and I’m just concerned that the workload is way to big for a pitcher to ever have to worry about hitting. Plus, since they don’t practice it and they are so bad at it, it just makes most of it an automatic out, and UN-watchable for fans. We don’t need that NLDH2020!
Starting pitchers have one throw day during the 4-5 day gap between starts. They should have time to work on their hitting.
Ok, let’s say they have 4 days between starts. The first two days after your start, you are sore. Those are the days that you do your rehabilitation work. Days 3 and 4 are used to strengthen, loosen up, and get ready for your next start. My point is, it’s rare to see a pitcher who is good at both because the time isn’t there.
Pitching and hitting are the exact opposite things. Good hitters practice hitting and can’t pitch. Good pitchers practice pitching and can’t hit. If you told a chiropractor to work in a podiatrist office for the day, there would be bad results because even though the chiropractor may work with feet at his job, he doesn’t specialize in it. He may know a lot about feet, but not as much as somebody who specializes in it himself. That’s my point. Pitchers work in the vicinity of hitters, they know what they do, they may even know how they do it, but they don’t specialize in it. So why not put more energy into what you specialize in rather than something you really don’t need to?
You think hitting is about work ethic? Baseball players are the “quickest” athletes of the four major sports. The best basketball player on the planet, Jordan, was baseball slow. You have to have tremendous quickness and hand eye coordination to hit a baseball. This trait is uncommon to say the least.
Just because you can throw a ball in the mid to high 90s, doesn’t mean you have fast twitching muscles. The exact opposite is more likely to be true.
We’ll, they wouldn’t get worse with practice. I’m not expecting pitchers to hit *well* but pitchers’ hitting has gotten progressively worse over the decades. I would guess there’s some correlation between trying to hit and hitting better.
gbs42.
And my guess is that has more to do with pitchers throwing in the high 90s vs pitches throwing in the high 80s and low 90s.
You can still hit a little with slow twitching muscles when the pitch is ten MPH slower.
Hitting a baseball is hard and it gets harder every year.
Fair point about pitchers throwing harder and harder.
Maybe they should bunt more. 😉
Ok, but when you practice hitting, that is less time that you have to practice pitching. Pitching has advanced so much in the 2010’s that you can spend the majority of your free time advancing your abilities on the mound and still have things that you didn’t get to do. Why spend your entire career trying to make it to the bigs pitching, and then having to hit once you get to the big leagues? That doesn’t make sense. Not having a DH in the NL is just a risk to pitchers. A risk to get un-needed injuries, and a risk of not being as good as you can be because you have to spend some of your time doing something else. If a pitcher has practiced pitching from high-school to his rookie year in the bigs, and then when he gets to the bigs he has to do something that he didn’t go pro doing, it’s nonsensical.
gbs42. I think they should bunt more. On some things we agree.
I think bunting is what pitchers should do when they are at the plate since that is easy enough to practice before the game. I was gun-shy after the Max Scherzer incident, but to me it is the lesser of the two evils (swinging or bunting). The only injuries attained by bunting should be a hit wrist, a bad ricochet to the head, or a normal HBP (obviously). I think pitchers do enough PFP’s in practice, plus sprinting and cardio work to where leg injuries should be un-common from hitting though.
Padres chairman Ron Fowler was on 930 the fan last week and he didn’t seem to thrilled about the uncertainty.
It basically pointed out how there was a deadline to make a call on team options for this year before they even knew what rules would be in place for the following year.
This being the main point.
They released Moreland on a very reasonable contract but they have no idea if the DH will be in play in the NL
Even further, teams can sign players via free agency but they still don’t know rules for next year.
So right now, NL teams won’t sign DH only players because they don’t know the rules and the DH only players have a much smaller market than they could potentially have if the NL has the DH
Long story short, decisions like these should had been decided before the options needed to be called and free agency started
Well said
I was thinking the same thing. Ridiculous this wasn’t ironed out earlier, or delay options and off-season until they work it out.
MLB at it’s finest. I sometimes wonder why I stick with it.
Because it is baseball?
What a shock MLBPA doesn’t care. They told the fans to F off. Blake Snell’s comments that PA backed up, Astros scandal, and Justin Turner. They are just pure evil just like the owners.
It can’t just be instituted. It has to be negotiated with the players union. The owners are asking for nearly $1 billion in extra revenue to give the players the DH they want in the NL. 15 jobs for $1 billion to the owners.
The only positive to come from the shortened COVID season is bringing the DH to the NL 2 years sooner than it was going to be.
Mets got a new owner. I don’t even like them, but surely that’s good for baseball.
Pitchers haven’t hit in 24 months when this starts back. They already are terrible hitters.
To use this as a bargaining chip (either side) is not in the best interest of baseball.
That’s a really good point!
Johnny Mac, I could not agree more.
Why is it both sides always add pork to agreements both sides want? I’m sick of it in every facet of negotiations.
This is win-win. It’s amazing it can’t get done.
maybe they should ask the american league to stop using it
I remember one time like 10 years ago my starter was really good and had thrown 80 pitches in the 8th and the other team asked me if I’d stop using him and I laughed
did you cc: Kevin Cash?
The players union isn’t thinking this through if they believe that the small benefit of a universal DH is the only improvement they would get from a deal broadening the playoffs. Salaries are going to shrink in 2021 for many players. You can already see that from options that weren’t picked up. More MLB revenue will help improve the appetite to take on salaries. If that isn’t of interest to the union then players don’t need a union.
What the MLBPA is thinking is that you don’t need to trade your leverage when the owners actually want both things. The owners want to prevent the players from getting their fair share of expanded playoff revenue by “trading” the DH for it. The players know the owners want both things, so they’re not about to sacrifice a bunch of money by taking a bad playoffs deal to get something the owners are only pretending they don’t want. Of course the players do also want both things, but they have no reason to tie the two together in a false tradeoff.
Why are salaries going to shrink? The owners are saying they lost $2.3 billion in revenue in 2020. The players took a $2.3 billion cut in salaries in 2020. That means the owners lost no income.
The owners will get $2.125 billion in additional revenue in 2021 from new national TV contracts. That is $70 million in additional revenue for each team. More than half of the teams will get increases in revenue from local TV contracts in 2021. That is guaranteed money for the owners regardless of whether or not there are fans in the stands.
The DH is 15 new jobs that pay just $5 million more than the average for any position. A $75 million increase in payroll across 15 teams.
Expanded playoffs in 2020 increased revenue for the owners by $450 million. It would be double that if there were fans in the stands for all the games. Yet all the owners are offering in exchange for that windfall for them is 15 jobs. Players are not paid for the playoffs. If the owners want the expanded playoffs and all the increased revenue that comes with it, they need to offer to split that with the players.
@ Koamalu –
If you think MLB broke even this year then I have a bridge I’d like to sell to you. The league has come out and said they lost over $2.5B this past season. This means their net income was -$2.5B, not that their revenue was $2.5B lower than a normal year. If there was a full season with fans allowed, owners would have generated over $4B just from fans attending the games (and associated game day revenue). All teams lost 100% of this revenue, plus they lost 63% of tv revenues as their tv contracts were prorated for the shortened 60 game season. If you want to measure 2020 revenue losses versus a standard year, the league lost over $7B in revenues versus a standard, full year. Thankfully they were able to have a full post season so they were able to bring in that mostly unencumbered post season revenue to offset their losses, but as a league they lost $2.5B+ when all was said in done (total revenue minus total expenses). This is why owners are so concerned about 2021. If they lost $2.5B in only 60 games, how much are they going to lose in 2021 if they play 150+ games and are forced to pay full salaries but are still not allowed to have fans in the stadiums? The losses could be staggering! This is why teams are laying off 100’s of staff members and forcing pay cuts for others. This would never happen if the teams/league broke even. Baseball is in some serious economic trouble for this upcoming season and potentially for years to come after that. If the owners and players don’t come together, open the books and figure out how to get through this, then we’re looking at a long lockout or strike at the end of the 2021 season. If there’s ever been a time for the owners and players to come together and be honest with one another, now is the time to do that.
The NL getting the DH should not be a trade off relating to playoff expansion. I know it’s give and take but these issues shouldn’t be tied in together for negotiations.
Expanded playoffs would have to affect percentages and payouts of playoff perks for players in my opinion. More teams, more games, more gate receipts, more
Television revenue.
Maybe the players association could ask for expanded perk percentages from other revenue streams to get the deal done. Like asking for television revenue % and playoff merch%. They could even let players vote like they do with perks and see if non playoff players could get a small % to be equitable.
If I were the MLBPA, I wouldn’t make a substantive concession in return for this. In truth, Universal DH benefits the owners perhaps even more it does the players, since it gives them a chance to work off big contracts for aging players who shouldn’t spend much time in the field. But, if the NL doesn’t want it, why not respect that and move on? I have no problem with it in the AL, I like baseball both styles, and from my perspective, making the playoffs should be an accomplishment. The more playoff rounds, the cheaper the 162 regular games are.
Nah it benefits the players allowing a lazy player to play half the game. It specifically benefits pitchers because you can add more since you won’t pinch hit or pinch run because they take strategy
It benefits a pitcher to have to pitch to a batter who can actually hit?
It benefits aging players. It could make teams toss an additional year or two on the back end of a contract to sign a free agent, but it doesn’t help players.
I can’t think of the last long term position player contract reported in the AL that didn’t have that reassurance that if their skills diminish they can slide over to 1B or DH. This aids service time manipulation or helps a team split playing time to get the younger player “mentorship” or “experience” because those are nice easy excuses that are nearly impossible to prove.
A team will definitely pay an allstar past their prime $5-$10 million and hope for some semblance of a line a star prospect getting their feet wet would produce. They make a short term commitment to extend a more beneficial long term commitment and lower the cost to retain that player
Expanded playoffs for teams that can’t even win half their games to get in and a universal implementation of DH with the lack of managerial strategy involved. MLB just keeps going downhill.
The best team in baseball won the World Series this season. The best team in the other league was the representative. A rare case of the best teams making it. Here’s a hunch—because they playoffs expanded and it grows more difficult for inferior teams to win three or four series. Finally, some of the crap was taken out of crapshoot. Play all the rounds leading to the World Series on consecutive days and let the strong and deep survive.
Just because the stars aligned once doesn’t mean it will happen more often. It will happen less often when the best teams in baseball have to win an extra series every post season
12 teams is the answer. Top two division winners in each league get byes to the LDS. That would take away four Wild Card Series but also eliminate chance of under .500 teams making it in. I enjoyed the no days off, too, during the league series.
@ Stan—-I think we are saying the same thing—-I did say it was a rare case—maybe not the exact same as “stars aligned once”—-but where we disagree is that I believe that an inferior team will be able to win three to four series less often than the best team….and playing more than one game series and playing on consecutive days does favor better, deeper teams. If we really wanted to eliminate the randomness we need to make the playoff pool TWO teams—-like it used to be.
Does anyone really watch baseball to see the managers deploy their bench?
Who wrote this up, a legislative politician?
Let it stand on it’s own without tying it to other rule changes.
This is the issue with the Universal DH. Both sides want it, but MLB still wants a concession, while the MLBPA won’t give a concession knowing MLB wants it. They’re certainly not going to give them an expanded postseason and all that revenue. The MLBPA shouldn’t even entertain a discussion about an expanded postseason separate from a new CBA. Expanded postseason is by far the biggest want by owners. The Union should demand everything they want in return for it.
It would be helpful if Clark and Manfred weren’t the ones negotiating the CBA. They have shown they can’t work together.
I like the small differences between the leagues, specifically as it relates to the DH. I say keep it the way it was pre-2020. And in no way should the playoffs be expanded to allow a below .500 team tp make the post season.
Unfortunately, everything is a bargaining chip between the league and the players. MLB should just get an agreement with the players ASAP regarding this without any requirement for expanded playoffs. Not fair to NL teams to keep them in the guessing how this will play out. Yea, I know, dreaming.
For my entire life I’ve been against the DH—even in the AL, and certainly in the NL. But after years of watching pitchers refuse to learn how to hit (or even bunt), I’m changing my tune: put the DH in the NL starting next season. But—under no circumstances—let Manfred and the owners push expanded playoffs. Why turn seasons into useless garbage? And don’t tell me it invigorates middling teams. That is not how championships should be won.
Why does it opening more jobs for hitter matter? It’s not like they’re getting an extra roster spot.
Mets fans here hoping the DH comes back…..
The 2 things I personally liked was having the WildCard round as a 3-game series as opposed to a 1 and done event! And I’m also in favor of a DH in the National League!
I don’t mind a 3-game wild card round. I just don’t want division winners playing in the wild card round.
Here is how you fix baseball.
1. Change to 4 divisions with 8 teams. Therefore you add 2 extra teams and expand rosters to 26 players for everyone. 30 jobs from the expanded roster and 52 jobs for the teams. 82 extra players needed.
2. Playoffs will be top in the division is given a bye. 2 vs 3 in best of 5. Then best of 7 with the 8 other teams left.
3. increased revenue, television and everything.
Players need to stop whining as they are the 2nd highest paid overall and highest on average.
Two points come to mind
1. Players and teams alike don’t like the idea of a bye of any length, even to sit out a best of 3 series. Each time this is brought up, the objections are pretty strong.
2. Could be 4 divisions of 8 teams each, or 8 divisions of 4 teams each. The latter- NFL style- allows for alignment based on both geography and market size.
I’m pretty sure expansion is coming.
So using a terrible option to negotiate for another terrible option. Sounds about right for Manfred.
DH needs to go away all together
Please I would love both. Sick of watching the “great hitting pitcher” batting under .200 with their slugging even lower. It’s lame and boring.
I also love the idea of an expanded playoff to some extent. Not 16 but 10-12 would be rad. Really removes a lot of fans attentions when they know from the beginning they are going to not be in the playoffs. Which is even more rough when it’s 162 games and are going through a “rebuild” for years to come. It’s better for baseball, regardless if it’s not OG.
I don’t care about the one out in the lineup, what I care about is how the #8 hitter and to a lesser extent, the #1 hitter lose value.
In the AL, a number eight hitter has value. In the NL, if the number eight hitter comes up in a critical situation, they seldom get a pitch to hit. It’s not just one spot in the lineup that is hurt by a pitcher hitting.
“It’s not just one spot in the lineup that is hurt by a pitcher hitting.”
I’ve seen you argue the DH many times and I think you argue this issue better than anyone. The anti-DH types have nothing on you. They like the strategy of deciphering a convoluted NL box score, I guess. 🙂 I like your argument on the topic non-DH strategy, too.
non-DH vs. DH strategy…
don’t like the diluted playoffs, really don’t need teams below 500 making the playoffs
Make a rule, if not above 500 you forget all playoff games.
And I agree. That’s why I’m more in favor of a slight expansion. It’s just not fun for fans of teams that aren’t the obvious picks. Gives more incentive for fans to get into their team and at 14 total teams that isn’t much of a washed playoffs. In fact, looking at each year prior to 2020, the top 8 teams in each league almost always had winning records.
It’s not that big of a deal to me in the end but damn I hope they put in the DH. Tired of watching Giants pitchers try and hit while always hearing the Bumgarner can hit too, like yeah for pitcher which was an anomaly.
I really don’t care what rules from this wild 2020 stick around as long as the extra inning rule goes by the wayside.
Universal DH is a no brainer.. rather than having pitchers go bat, that have no interest in hitting and are quite frankly, terrible at it (in most cases).
Universal DH in exchange for Expanded playoffs with the proceeds being split 50/50 between owners and players.
Ridiculous that MLB is asking for expanded playoffs in exchange for the universal DH. They’ll literally use any opportunity to try and stick it to players. No doubt keeping most of not all of the extra playoff money for MLB and the owners.
“Oh, you guys want to have 3 square meals a day during the season? Sure, just sign away your first born to us and we’ll make sure you get 2000 calories a day”
But we’ll miss the thrill of a wasted at-bat every time through the order and the possibility of a pitcher being pointlessly and preventably injured!
Anytime the league starts a negotiation with such a large gap in the trade-off the players should immediately counter with a 100 million dollar salary floor. If they’re going to make all that extra revenue, they better be giving the players their fair share. 15 DH jobs is not that.
I have been following baseball since the early 70s, but if the Universal DH is implemented, I’ll walk away. Not to be vindictive or to make a point. Rather, the game simply will not interest me anymore. I would actually miss it.
So everyone wins with the Universal DH meaning more money for players and the playoffs expansion meaning more money for the owners. But the players don’t like it because of how MUCH the owners win while the players win?
*sigh*
@BKS1110:
So it doesn’t matter to you that the players only get 1 additional spot in the lineups of 15 teams and have to play a lot more games for free while the owners get 1o’s if not 100’s of millions of dollars?
Ok.
They could always just sign with the Pirates so they don’t have to worry about the horrors of competing for a World Series ring.
Players not getting additional salary is not the same as playing for free. They get 50-60% of gate receipts depending on the round. You can argue they should get more than that and I wouldn’t disagree with you, but playing for a players share is not playing for free.
All DH’s must pitch for 3 total outs every 10 games in order to qualify as such.
The expanded playoff format made MLB $450 million in additional revenue in 2020 and that is without fans in the stands. You can double that with the ticket prices they charge for playoff games if they have that format in 2021. With additional sponsorships that is probably a $1 billion increase in revenue for the team owners.
The players do not get paid for the playoffs at all. MLB is asking the players union to give them nearly a billion in extra revenue from the expanded playoffs in exchange for $75 million in extra payroll being spent on the DH in the NL?
Is Manfred stupid?
If the owners want the expanded playoffs, split the additional revenue with the players.
I agree with you. Adding the DH has nothing to do with adding playoffs.
Both sides want the DH. It’s pathetic that something both sides want can’t get done.
someone asked ” is Manfred stupid?” ……. he is mediocre , the DH made things more interesting during such a short season.
As a geezer who has followed MLB since 1958 I like seeing the older players who still can swing a bat but may not run or field well enough to play in the field. I understand it takes away the cat and mouse calls by managers but I like offense.
I think of a guy like Nelson Cruz or Encarsion (sp) etc….. without the DH they are probably finished, too expensive to just PH.
Lack of a DH does give you more time to grab a hot dog or hit the restroom if a pitcher is forced to try hitting.
I am strongly in favor of the universal DH, but the players should insist on some real meaningful concessions in exchange for expanding the post season another year.
Some things the players could ask for:
– Universal DH made permanent
– Elimination of payment of compensation for teams signing free agents. Owners offered this in scheduling negotiations.
– Increase in minimum salary
– Advance the arbitration eligibility service time requirement- maybe to 2.5 seasons fixed
Players could also throw in dropping the grievance that is coming, if they get the discovery they’d get when filed. The grievance could be worth up to 1.6 billion (probably more like 900M ish.
Any exchange of good will in advance of new CBA negotiations would be helpful at this point.
I prefer DH on both leagues at this point. Still, the argument that watching pitchers hit is so boring that blah blah blah is so childish at this point: yes! Many of us enjoy the strategy it brings. Why it’s so hard to understand that I’ve no idea. I get the appeal of the DH, what I don’t get is the obtuse refusal to see that being against the DH isn’t somehow inherently wrong.
You had me with your first point, you lost me with your second.
I think there is more strategy in the AL. The hardest decision a manager makes is when to pull a pitcher. In the NL, so often his spot in the order makes that decision easy.
The double switch is about as taxing mentally as tic-tac-toe
I agree HaloFan. The so called “strategy” is often a choice between pulling your starting pitcher- or another effective pitcher, or letting them hit. I don’t like it, but if another fan does, then fair play to them.
Yea, it’s much less strategically significant now that the complete game has gone the way of the do-do… that’s a good point; much of the strategy with the pitcher hitting is gone now, but back in the day it was something. I like having the pitchers hit. My reasoning for the DH now is that, 1: it’s coming anyway, and 2: too many all hit, no field guys these days and I’d like to fit them into the game better.
As I said before, I don’t mind the pitcher hitting, what I hate is how the pitcher affects the lineup. The number 8 hitter is seldom given a good pitch to hit with RISP. And the leadoff hitter is much more about getting on base than driving in runs.
Cosmodeus, the game has definitely changed. The strategy has gone from… “Do I let the pitcher hit in the 8th?” to “Do I take out the pitcher after five or six innings.”
It’s almost like dealing with that reality, which doesn’t exist with a DH, is more strategic
NL games require less strategy than AL games because what, now?
Yes. It’s less obvious now though. The toughest thing to do is to manage your pitching staff. Pitchers hitting made that choice easier.
Of course if the double switch is strategy to you, then pitching changes is likely beyond your grasp.
Accepted – “The toughest thing to do is manage your pitching staff.”
So, a manager having to decide between letting the pitcher hit because he wants him to stay on the mound, or pinch hitting for him because his slot’s in the lineup and he wants a run… this is somehow less complicated than if the manager did not have to make that decision and could simply manage the lineup and pitching staff independently. Unlike the definition of “double switch”, the reasoning one would use to argue that removing a complication makes things more complicated is beyond my grasp.
JD, in the vast majority of time the decision are based on the score of the game. It’s not complex stuff. Those choices are much simpler than actually evaluating the effectiveness of the pitcher.
Pitching effectiveness changes are beyond my zone of understanding as well, but the double switch is simple, and when to remove your starter is easier in the NL, I’d have an easier time managing in the NL.
I don’t buy the strategy argument. I find it without merit. I’ve been a fan since the 60s, I remember all of baseball without the DH.
There are plenty of logical reasons for the DH. There are a lot of emotional reasons against it.
You say that like emotion is a bad thing.
I think insulting the style of ball in the AL is a bad thing. I like AL ball better. And it’s not because of the pitcher not hitting, it’s because I like a pitcher not being able to pitch around the number 8 hitter. I like that a leadoff hitter who slugs is more valuable in the AL.
But I HAVE NO ISSUE with people who like NL ball better.
Why do people have to make emotional arguments against the AL? They are not necessary.
It is a different brand of ball. In the NL, a pitcher gets to setup the game by manipulating the bottom of the lineup. I don’t mind anyone who prefers that. But some of the insults about AL ball are a bit much..
I think most of the fans who like the pitcher hitting can’t even articulate why they like it. Some of the arguments against the DH are really weak.
There have emotional arguments against the NL as well. You’ve made some of them yourself.
I hope my arguments are more about countering the “strategy” and it’s not “real baseball”
I do have a strong opinion about the shift. I hate it. But I don’t have a strong opinion about the DH. I prefer AL baseball. But I can see where fans might prefer the way a pitcher can manipulate the bottom of the order.
I would not be any less of a fan if the AL abolished the DH. However, every time my #8 hitter got pitched around, I’d hate it. And every time the opposing #8 hitter came up in a critical situation and my pitcher pitched around him… I’d love it.
Universal DH is awful but its better than man on 2nd in extras and 7in Double headers. By far the worst change was 16 team playoff format. So if anything stays it should be Universal DH
There really should be a universal DH
No to expanded play offs-ever. You don’t play 162 games to ‘reward’ teams who have losing records who can then somehow potentially go and win a World Series. Stop with the greed and the Liberalism of baseball where nearly everyone must get a ‘reward’ for participating.
Why is everything presented as a concession or some sort of ploy or deal? I personaly like the universal DH. Pitchers are hard enough to keep healthy. But whatever, maybe a team with a Zambrano type of pitcher, can just opt into the pitcher batting? Put it on each team, game by game decision. Tuff cheese if your stud picher gets hurt diving awkwardly back into 1st base. id bring up the other oddities of 2020, but this was sposed to be about the DH.
Put it to a vote. Simple enough. 8 out of 15 wins and the decision is final until next year.
Everyone from every angle is using the absolutely necessary temporary pandemic rule changes to legitimize wholesale rule changes.
Bullshit,
DH still sucks.
It’s wiffleball in your cousins backyard when you are 10 years old, not ML Baseball.
Real men swing a bat.
Period..
And real pitchers can’t do it. Period.
I don’t pay attention to what the purists say. about the DH, They have been predicting the doom of baseball with every change for the last 170 years.
Said an American league wiffleball proponent
And the purists don’t pay attention to the people that think they need to take all the baseball out to get more people watch baseball
James, you’re talking as if every suggested change has been implemented. Those baseball purists are right sometimes, you know. Didn’t Finley want an orange ball or something? One-year deals only… sometimes it’s ok to resist change, too.
What I want to know is where I can go watch baseball that doesn’t have a DH? I’d be willing to drive a good distance to watch amateur baseball that’s played by the rules. Hopefully some of these minor league teams that got kicked to the scrapheap realize they’ll have a more interesting and intellectual product on the field..
Don’t know why if you’re an owner you’d want to risk your pitchers getting hurt batting or running bases?
Alternate Hitter Concept in the National League is Far Better Then the Designated Hitter in the American League!
Pressure may someday come to bear on the NL to adopt the DH rule to the point that it cannot be ignored. In that event, I’m presenting a compromise proposal that even enhances strategy by giving the NL manager more in-game decisions. The idea is to create the Alternate Hitter role (AH) not to be confused with the PH or DH. To review, the PH requires the pitcher to leave the game. To begin the next half inning, the PH has a one-time chance to enter the game as a position player. If the PH does not enter the game during this one-time chance his playing eligibility ends for the remainder of the game. Conversely, under the AH plan, the pitcher has the chance to resume pitching after an AH bats for him! Furthermore the AH becomes eligible to re-enter the game as part of a double switch with a new pitcher throughout the remainder of the game. After an AH hits for the pitcher, pitchers resume batting for themselves. Of course, a PH may still hit for the pitcher later and force him from the game. However a PH for pitcher also causes the AH to lose his double-switch eligibility to return to the game. While eligible the AH may re-enter the game as part of a double-switch with a new pitcher to replace a defensive player and the current pitcher. Of course the AH-defender must take the pitcher’s spot in the batting order as a result of the double-switch and the new pitcher assumes the replaced defensive players’ spot in the order. Even more strategic decisions abound now, for example: The pitcher comes up to bat with 2 out and the bases loaded, so the manager strategically decides that it’s a perfect time to use the AH. The AH drives in 2 runs with a hit and 3rd out is eventually made. The same pitcher goes back to the mound to resume his pitching and the AH goes back to the bench for the moment. However each time the pitcher (same or new) comes to bat the manager has three choices: A) Pitcher hits for himself. B) A PH hits for the pitcher, forcing the AH to lose double-switch eligibility. C) The AH hits for the pitcher again but also replaces a position player as part of a double-switch. Here is a concise list of the rules for AH use:
1. Only one player may be used as an Alternate Hitter (AH) per game.
2. An AH can be any player on the roster.
3. An AH is NOT “designated” prior to the game.
4. A hitter MUST be assigned as AH prior to his at-bat.
5. An AH can ONLY be used to hit for a pitcher.
6. The pitcher giving up an at-bat to the AH MAY continue pitching.
7. All pitchers must resume batting for themselves unless a PH is used.
8. The AH MAY re-enter game as a double-switch with a new pitcher anytime.
9. A post-AH PH may hit for a pitcher, forcing the pitcher out of the game.
10. The post-AH PH for pitcher causes the loss of an unused AH double-switch.
My short attention span prohibits me from reading your post.
Way too convoluted and unnecessary.
It is not convoluted to state a rule in a way to not leave any holes. You should read the actual MLB DH rules for a convolution example. The AH is indeed unnecessary unless you want to preserve an advantage that some pitchers have worked hard to develop. Secondly to instill fear into the opposing manager to walk the 8th hitter to load the bases early in the game just because a top tier but weak hitting pitcher is on deck!
2019 Team statistics:
BA
AL: .253
NL .251
SLG
AL: .439
NL .431
OPS
AL: ..762
NL .753
OBP
AL: .323
NL .323
Runs per game per team
AL: 4.88
NL: 4.78
This isn’t quite measuring wind speed in a vacuum and it doesn’t correct for interleague games, but the difference isn’t very much no matter how you slice it.
If pitchers shouldn’t bat “because they’re not very good at it” why not have a designated runner for the slowest batter when he gets on base?
And why not have a designated runner for extra inning games if the “runner on 2nd” after 9 (or 7) innings is adopted?
Want more offense? Move the pitcher back 6 feet. Shorten the distance to 1B. Disallow shifts. Only allow pitcher to throw to 1st once per runner. Eliminate pickoff throws to 3B. Only allow 1 relief pitcher to warm up at a time, and the last pitcher who warms up has to enter the game and face 3 batters.