The St. Louis Cardinals faced a disappointing end to a hard-fought season when they lost games two and three of the wild card round to the San Diego Padres. Now they must turn to the difficult process of winter roster building.
The Cardinals, however, are in the unique position of awaiting decisions from two franchise icons: Yadier Molina and Adam Wainwright. Both vets have interest in returning, but no decision has been made. Either or both could still decide to return. In a worst case scenario for Cardinals’ fans, it’s possible the pair could explore a new frontier with another club, writes Derrick Goold of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. That seems unlikely, but Molina and Wainwright are intense competitors who have accomplished more-or-less everything they could hope to accomplish in St. Louis.
For the Cardinals’ part, manager Mike Shildt has repeatedly expressed a desire to see the pair return to Jupiter in the spring. Wainwright and Molina have long set the tone in St. Louis, and it’s hard to quantify the impact their departure might have on the club’s culture. The Cardinals had hoped a sort of passing of the torch would take place in 2020, per Goold, but the young players in St. Louis didn’t quite establish themselves in exactly the way the team hoped. Ace Jack Flaherty still has a sky-high ceiling, but in 9 starts, the 24-year-old went just 4-3 with a 4.91 ERA/4.11 FIP. Given the tumultuous nature of the season, that’s hardly a disaster. Still, when push came to shove, it was Wainwright and Kwang Hyun Kim taking the ball in games one and two of the playoffs.
Molina, 38, already outlasted one catcher-of-the-future in Carson Kelly, who was eventually traded to the Diamondbacks as part of the package for Paul Goldschmidt. Andrew Knizner, 25, is the closest to usurping the role now, but it’s not particularly close. If Molina wants to come back, he’ll be back, and he’ll be the starting catcher.
Goold notes that Molina desires to play two more seasons. That certainly makes it seem as if he’ll be back in St. Louis. If Molina returns, chances are greater that Wainwright returns as well. They certainly have a need now that Dakota Hudson will miss the season after undergoing Tommy John surgery. The Cardinals have other options for the rotation – Alex Reyes, Carlos Martinez, Kim, Miles Mikolas, and Austin Gomber – but besides Flaherty, they all come with questions. With Wainwright, the Cardinals know exactly what they’re getting. They’re just waiting for Wainwright to give the word on whether or not they’ll get it in 2021.
C_Low6
If those guys are willing to come back on one-year deals for a reasonable amount of money, I’m all for it. 2021 needs to be another year of figuring out what the Cardinals have before the Carp, Fowler, C-Mart, Wong, Andrew Miller money comes off the books. Yadi/Kiz can get a 110/50 or 100/60 game split and Waino can provide some veteran leadership and rotation insurance. Injuries happen so the young guys will still get plenty of time to play!
Francys01
I believe that the Cardinals are re-signing Yadi and Wainwright. It will be nice if when they retire they retire the same year. They should play for a couple more years for this team. They’re my favorite duo in baseball. For Mozeliak it is time to negotiate a new contract and announce it once the offseason starts. Let’s go Cards.
FredMcGriff for the HOF
If Yadi retires now does 2000 hits get him in the HOF? I’m guessing not.
Philliesfan4life
Prolly one of the best catchers of his generation, 2 rings , and how many gold gloves? I lost count
barkinghumans77
9 plus a couple platinum gloves.
Mrtwotone
I believe that yadier is a hall of famer. Best catcher of the 2000s
wordonthestreet
I think he is a HOF catcher as well
Briffle2
He’ll get in no question, but his stats aren’t as good in comparison to other HOF catchers. The link below is career WAR for catchers. He ranks four back of Jason Kendall. Most HOF catchers are in the 50’s.
baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml
zpgreen
The problem with WAR for catchers is that WAR is heavily weighted towards offense and most modern catcher stats are not contemplated in WAR. The way the old guard used to get in was counting stats and eye test. If you go by those criteria, Molina gets in. I think he will get in based on legacy, staying with one team, and winning a bunch of team awards like pennants and World Series, as well as his individual awards like gold gloves and all star selections.
Briffle2
I always thought that WAR overvalued defense (ahem, Simmons). I guess I don’t know how it values catcher defense compared to other positions, I was just surprised at Molina’s standing compared to other catchers. He’s never had huge peak offensive years, but it’s not like he’s been God awful offensively, besides early in his career.
cards81
He is also a very clutch hitter…usually comes up with the big hit…like the Game 7 Go ahead home run with the Mets..and then of course waino strikes out Beltran with the bases loaded to end the game
stollcm
If we talk pure stats, there are a number of guys who should be in but are not due to, um, drinking some juice. I also think the opposite is/should be true. Non quantifiable variables need to be considered
the cuban solution
WAR is a made up, subjective stat. He is a Hall of Famer. 1st ballot.
troll
he’ll get in, first ballot, intangibles don’t show up in the box score or stat line
cards81
Give me a break…Molina is a sure HOF…2000 hits might not be that big of a thing for other position players but as a catcher it’s a big deal…
“ Any way you slice it, Yadi is entering elite company. There are 32 players in the vaunted 3,000 Hit Club. Yadi is about to become one of only nine catchers with 2,000 hits at any position, and very soon to become one of just four with 2,000 as a catcher.”
geg42
Molina should get into the HOF on his defense. He has the 4th highest defensive bWAR of all time.
His bat is no slouch, but his glove is all world. (Giants fan, btw).
Rsox
Offense doesn’t usually get Catchers into the HOF (but it is a bonus). His defense and the 9 Gold Gloves will get him in.
redbirds22
I guess you forgot about Piazza, he was all offense and very little defense
Rsox
Piazza was the exception, not the rule
AndyWarpath
I’m curious to all those discussing Molina’s credentials for the HOF: is Buster Posey a hall of famer?
Briffle2
That is an excellent question. I’m admittedly a WAR guy, but obviously you take into everything else (postseason, All-star games, gold gloves, long time with just one team) when talking about the HOF. Posey actually has a higher WAR than Molina, despite playing in about 800 less games, due to his much better prime offensive years.
He checks off all of the boxes. MVP, a batting title (very rare for catchers), six All-star games in 11 seasons, three World Series wins.
That being said, and this may sound contradictory based on what I said above, but I think he needs to play a few more seasons and rack up some more regular season stats to be a first ballot HOF. IMO, he should be in and he will be in, but you all know how picky the voters are when it comes to the HOF. If he retires now and doesn’t play again, there will be people who won’t vote for him the first time or couple of times because they don’t think his overall body of work in the regular season is HOF worthy.
92jays
Easy first ballot hof. McGriff should be in too
mac1brad
Definitely will be elected to the Hall of Fame! Only question is if he is a first ballot guy.?
Ji-Man Choi
My favorite battery this century. I hope they both resign with STL and win 1 more title together
MWeller77
I love the term “battery,” which of course Clayton used correctly, but it just occurred to me: why this term for the sport’s most important defensive connection, the arm and the glove that aim to silence the bats?
Fortunately, there’s Wikipedia to provide an answer, which I’ll share for any other amateur etymologists in the audience: “The use of the word ‘battery’ in baseball was first coined by Henry Chadwick in the 1860s in reference to the firepower of a team’s pitching staff and inspired by the artillery batteries then in use in the American Civil War. Later, the term evolved to indicate the combined effectiveness of pitcher and catcher.”
AndyWarpath
Awesome trivia!
RedbirdJodella
I’m for Yadi backed up by Wieders for another year and use Knizner as a trade piece along with Carlos who can’t seem to get his act together for the Birds. That makes room the following year, Yadi’s last, for the highly touted Ivan Herrera to come up as backup trainee.
Yadi and Waino forever! Okay, not forever, but for the coming year to make up for the year that was not.
alt2tab
I’m calling my shot that Yadi is gonna join Pujols for their final seasons in Anaheim together.
bobtillman
Only if he takes a 5 year/100 million contract from Moreno……
Briffle2
He take a 3/30 million contract with ten year personal services contract when he’s done.
seth3120
Not happening. Yes they had some amazing years together but Yadi isn’t going to mess with his legacy if the Cardinals are leaving a spot open for him. Money isn’t the issue his value from anyone is on a year by year basis and that’s all he’ll want. It’s the Cardinals or retirement
alt2tab
Is his legacy really that greatly diminished if he leaves one year early though? Obviously my prediction is based on almost nothing but I think a reunion with Pujols and LaRussa in Anaheim would be at least intriguing to him. And I think his legacy with the Cards is solidified regardless of where he ends up next year
DarkSide830
no, it isnt. the idea that going somewhere else harms one’s legacy is a joke. obviously being a lifer is of not, but he can just retire with the Cards afterwards.
the cuban solution
Better shot at Pujols coming back to STL to DH.
alt2tab
Maybe if the new Angels GM gets Mozeliak drunk
Monkey’s Uncle
Nothing but respect for both of these guys, and I’m a fan of a division rival. Two great competitors. They aren’t what they once were, but both can still contribute and lead at the right price.
Hosmer for HOF
They’re both statistically doing well and playing well, this is a rare opportunity where it’s the type of team that you could continue your career on and be competitive with in your final years. I imagine both have a few years left in the tank to build their HOF resumes.. If wainwright pitched well into his early 40s, borderline HOFer case!
DrDan75
I’d like to see them both retire as Cardinals.
On the other hand, a player like Yadi is bound to draw interest from a rebuilding club with a young pitching staff.
seth3120
Why would he do that? For a couple extra bucks. Yadi and Waino are coming back or they are hanging up their cleats.
echozulu88
Maybe ATL with their super young staff might overpay enough to take him away from STL? I don’t think he will go somewhere else just for a few more $ that isn’t a WS contender.
stollcm
Could Waino end it in Atlanta, where he is from basically? Atlanta seems to give out 1 year deals to the older crowd for veteran presence.
Ted
In a way I hope not because it would be such a brutal reminder for Braves fans of what they missed. He was the last piece added to that JD Drew trade, and yeah Drew raked for the Braves, but it was one year. One forgettable year where they (of course) lost the NLDS.
Philliesfan4life
How much does Wainwright have left? he’s one of my favorites in the game. Such a gamer & a bulldog.
seth3120
I would love to see both of them one more year deals and have them announce ahead of time this was their final year so fans could pay tribute. I would love to see Reyes and Waino swap spots in the bullpen. Reyes has electric stuff and as high a ceiling as flaherty although I agree he comes with more questions. I think Waino would be better not having to go through the lineup more than once. Much like Smoltz at the end of his career. These guys are beloved and they earned it not only over the years but in 2020. They are past their prime but that doesn’t cause their value to go from high to zero. We lost an icon to free agency in Pujols but the situation couldn’t be more different. Money won’t be an issue at all. Even if they pressed for a premium which I don’t expect one year premiums are doable.
echozulu88
I wasn’t sure Waino would be coming back but his good season plus Hudson’s TJ, and question marks with Mikolas and Martinez, i believe he will.
cards81
If Reyes can stay healthy and build up as a starter the cardinals will have a good 1-2 in Reyes and Flaherty…then Kim, Waino…probably Mikolas after that but I sure do like Gomber…either way that will be a good rotation…just have to fix this offense…I don’t know but I think resigning Ozuna would be a good start…or finally trade for Arenado
echozulu88
I would be surprised if they resigned Ozuna. It didn’t seem like they wanted him back and he seemed like he wasn’t happy with the lack of any offer aside from the QO.
cards81
Cardinals lacked interest because of his shoulder problems and they wanted to give O’Neill a look…not to mention they had Carlson coming up…Ozuna said he wanted to come back and he did like it in St. Louis…the cardinals always want draft picks and once he declined the QO they weren’t going to resign imo
seth3120
If Ozuna had a 2018 like he did in 2019 I think they would have pushed a bit more. I think that down year, shoulder issue as mentioned, and young outfielders they wanted to take a look at they felt it was best not to commit. I’m not aware of the year he had in Atlanta but if it was like 2019 I wouldn’t rule out a return entirely. Nobody has grabbed the reigns exactly
echozulu88
The year he had in ATL had him as one of the best hitters. I’d still be surprised him going back to STL unless they suddenly make room in the OF or the DH stays. It just doesn’t sounds like a Mo-Move especially with Ozuna’s price tag going up. I think he’d rather extend Carpenter another 2 years $20 mil.
DarkSide830
Reyes is shot. too many injuries.
cards81
Reyes is way to young to say he is done…if the cardinals did resign Ozuna room in the outfield would not be a problem…Carlson in Cf and Fowler in right (one more year on that contract) , and Ozuna in Left….O’Neill could be packaged in a trade and I think Bader is the 4th outfielder for his defense…that’s not a bad lineup as long as Edman and Wong keep setting the table well in front of Goldy and Ozuna
17dizzy
I like your thoughts —— Cards81 !!!! But I’d be surprised if Ozuna would sign back with the Cardinals. Ozuna made known he didn’t like the way John Mozeliak would not communicate with Ozuna about a qualifying offer. Ozuna wanted to stay with the Cards for the 2020 season. Although he was glad he landed with the Braves.
stgpd
These guys are the team’s leaders and we’re not the problem. In fact Yadi was one of the most effective hitters the Cards had. Bring them back we can afford to be generous next year for sure. Must do something about the dreadful outfield and Matt Carpenter’s gotta go. I don’t care if we have to pay his whole salary. He’s toast
Baseball 1600
Yadi and Waino remind me of Posey and Cain from the Giants. Both seem like class acts and it’s amazing how long they’ve stayed productive in their careers
Rsox
If Wainwright could somehow stick around a couple of more seasons and squeeze out 33 more wins he probably gets into the HOF
DarkSide830
wins mean as little as ever to voters now, and 200 is the absolute minimum if you’re someone who cares about any sort of wins threshold.
DarkSide830
maybe the Phillies can explore picking up both of them if they dont land Realmuto.
DarkSide830
and look, Yadi was great, but there’s no way he goes 1st ballot. the last two catchers to get in 1st ballot were Pudge (who barely got it with 76%) and Johnny Bench. Yadi isnt as good as Bench was and is probably not as good as most of the catchers in since. (Pudge, Fisk, Piazza, Carter) the guy has been a great catcher, but 1st ballot? no way, especially given the aforementioned and the fact that there are so few C in the hall.
cards81
You’re right Darkside…it’s just ridiculous how people say he is not ever going to make the HOF like stupid Passan with ESPN
troll
as a fan, i’m waiting on the cardinals to decide on mo, carp, dex, carlos, bader, oneill,…
bighiggy
Heres to hoping carp and dex and carlos get hot next year so one, we are successful, or two, we can at least recoup something in a trade. If all 3 are terrible again it will be a looooooong year because you know moz wont bench them.
DodgerOK
Well, at Wainwright’s age, you don’t really know what you will get next season. With Molina, they will sell enough jerseys to pay his salary.
AZPat
The Reds should consider signing Yadi. A catching tandem of Yadi and Barnhart and their leadership will help the Reds get to the next level.
jmlang
time for Moe the PBO to go. What has he done lately besides Goldy?