The Blue Jays and Pirates nearly completed a trade sending righty Joe Musgrove from Pittsburgh to Toronto prior to yesterday’s trade deadline, Robert Murray reports (via Twitter). That arrangement “fell apart at the eleventh hour,” however, and the Jays pivoted to acquire both Robbie Ray and Ross Stripling instead.
Musgrove, 27, was a Jays draft pick back in 2011 (No. 46 overall) and has settled in as a solid rotation piece in Pittsburgh after coming over from the Astros in the Gerrit Cole trade. From 2018-19, Musgrove tossed 285 2/3 innings of 4.28 ERA ball with more promising secondary marks: 3.72 FIP, 8.1 K/9, 1.9 BB/9, 0.94 HR/9, 44.9 percent ground-ball rate. He was hit hard in three starts this season, however, and was placed on the injured list early in August. He’s said to be nearing a return but remained on the IL through the deadline, which undoubtedly complicated negotiations as the two sides tried to align on value. He’s controlled through the 2022 season, so he’d have been a relatively long-term play for a Jays club that is emerging from a rebuilding effort.
While it was a busy week for the Blue Jays, deadline season came and went without much activity from the last-place Pirates, due largely to injuries and underperformance up and down the roster. Also on the injured list for the Bucs was right-hander Keone Kela, who’d surely have been moved had he not recently sustained a forearm injury. Chris Archer, too, would’ve been a near-lock to be moved had he not undergone thoracic outlet surgery prior to the season.
Over on the active roster, more established players like Josh Bell, Adam Frazier and Gregory Polanco have played so poorly that the Bucs would’ve needed to sell low and likely accept middling returns. Forcing a move with a lackluster return wasn’t something GM Ben Cherington and his staff considered.
“We’d much rather hold than make trades that we’re not confident in that later come back and bite us,” Cherington tells Jason Mackey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. Without getting into specifics, the GM acknowledged that he thought he was close to lining up on a couple deals that didn’t quite pan out in the end. Ultimately, the only player the Pirates traded was Jarrod Dyson, who went to the White Sox for $243K of international bonus pool space.
While it was a frustrating deadline for many Pirates fans, there’s still ample opportunity down the road for Cherington and his staff to reshape the club. Kela is a free agent at season’s end, and Archer’s $11MM club option seems likely to be bought out for $250K rather than exercised. Injuries torpedoed trade possibilities for that pair, but the Bucs control each of Musgrove, Bell, Frazier, Polanco, Trevor Williams, Chad Kuhl and Richard Rodriguez through at least the 2022 season. If the team does ultimately opt for a larger-scale tear down, be it this winter or next summer, they’ll still have more than one season of control over each player to market to other clubs.
As for the Jays, they didn’t get the two-plus years of Musgrove they apparently sought, but they did land two-plus years of Stripling. The 30-year-old has struggled through his past four appearances after an otherwise solid start to the year, but he has a strong track with the Dodgers, carrying a career 3.51 ERA and 3.60 FIP (387 innings) into the 2020 season. They also rolled the dice on another struggling but established NL West starter, Robbie Ray, adding him and Stripling to the already acquired Taijuan Walker — who was excellent in his Blue Jays debut over the weekend.
It’s arguable that Musgrove would’ve been a more impactful addition than Stripling and/or Ray, and it’s worth wondering whether they’d have acquired either player had the Musgrove swap come together. Regardless, the Jays are positioned quite well to return to the postseason for the first time since the 2016 season. At 18-15, they’re a game back of the second place Yankees and currently leading the Tigers by a game and a half for the No. 8 seed in the American League.
DarkSide830
full circle
Michael Chaney
Besides Musgrove being a Blue Jays draft pick, there’s an obvious connection between Ben Cherington and Toronto’s front office
rocky7
Throwing out the 2020 season numbers and performance, comparing Musgroves to Robbie Rays’ prior years career probably should be considered a bit insulting to Robbie Ray!
bobtillman
Exactly. Get Ray straightened out, and you may get an impact starter. Get Musgrove straightened out, you get a #4/#5 starter on a competitive team.
I favor aggressive GMs, even if they misfire on occasion. But there isn’t much Cherrington can do, unless Bell, Palanco et al start performing up to expectations.
A 24th ranked farm system and the worse team in MLB and legitimate budget constraints make a pretty ugly picture. Shame to see that once admired franchise fall into what they’ve become.
mlb1225
Fangraphs ranks them as the 7th best farm system. They also have the highest success rate of ranked prospects to successful major leaguers.
kodion
If it was an either/or scenario, Musgrove has, more recently, been a much better “impact” pitcher than Ray. You have to go back to ’17 for a good season for Ray (5 ACEStarts …to JM’s 1) while JM has put up 12 (to RR’s 2) over the last two years.
I think Ray can be useful coming in behind an opener (which, incidentally, Stripling profiles as since he doesn’t seem able to fool anyone 2nd-time thru) but his days as an impact starter may be gone.
*ACEStart =7, or more, innings allowing 2 Runs, or less. That’s impact!
MichaelJFoxownssteaknshake
Different actors same old story with the Pirates.
66TheNumberOfTheBest
The Pirates should have sold off every rental, no matter the return.
No reason to move a Musgrove or Kuhl or whoever is still under control without a great offer.
Roll the dice that they will increase their value or that teams will pay more for a full season of service instead of 4 weeks.
mlb1225
Yea, there was no reason to not move Holland. Even if the Pirates got a little bit of cash, it would have been worth it.
Goku the Knowledgable One
Would’ve liked to see Archer traded for 2 ML ready top prospects and another top 5 organizational prospect as return
jtkuch
That was the mindset BC had this offseason when he held most of his chips, and look what happened. With this team, it’s more likely that players will lose value over time than gain it. There was no reason not to trade guys like Kela (1 yr rental, prone to miss time) or Frazier (prone to slow starts) when their value was at least respectable. That fault may partially be Nutting’s for hiring him too late, but he still needed to do more beyond dealing Marte.
Also, for rebuilding clubs (and he can call it whatever he wants, they’re still rebuilding), there is such thing as addition by subtraction. Dealing guys to open up spots for other guys who need PT to prove themselves is the pretty obvious thing to do. In short, I’ll give him another offseason of leeway, but something needs to happen before next season starts.
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Jkuch-It is a shame that Cherington did not have a crystal ball.
Goku the Knowledgable One
You’re saying you think Cherington was right to not have a fire sale ????
You didn’t need a crystal ball to know that the Pirates were going to be bottom table
Goku the Knowledgable One
I agree 100%
Should’ve cleaned house before the season. Admit defeat and cash-in.
I can see trying to keep Archer for some bounce back value,
but Kela, Frazier, Bell should have been auctioned off for youth once Marte was dealt.
Everyone knew Bells value would never be higher.
Cherington is off to a rough start.. they’re at least 7 years away from contention
Goku the Knowledgable One
One trade I’d like to see this offseason would be Josh Bell for Clint Frazier and Andrujar
I know that those are the 3 most cliche buy-low names circling forums for the past 2 years,,
But think about it,, that’s why it makes sense 🙂
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Freddy,I wish that I had your crystal ball to see seven years into the future.
Why would he want to unload controllable decent to reasonably good players who are cost controlled just to sell low and not get much in return?
I think that BC is smart enough to shop these players and found that he was not going to get much even last winter.
A Bell trade was discussed last winter on this forum and mostly agreed that he is probably best at a DH which limits his value.
Fire sales imply getting rid of older veterans to bring in young players.The term implies making a lot of trades.If he traded Marte who was his best player then he certainly shopped others.He just did not want to give any away.
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This proposed trade actually does make some sense but inasmuch as Cashman would not trade these two for Garrit Cole I doubt that he would do it and the Yankees have plenty of hitters anyway.
99 Captain Judge
Not making fun of NY’s 2nd best team anymore when there actually going for it. The Yankees should of offered something to the Pirates with starters Clevinger and Lynn both being so expensive.
stymeedone
With all the headline position players that have come up onto the Toronto team, I find it interesting that a lamented Tigers roster is only 1.5 games back of them.
Goku the Knowledgable One
So basically :
Cole for Musgrove, Moran
Cutch for Reynolds
Meadows, Glasnow, Baz for Archer
Marte for nothing
Vazquez for nothing
Archer for nothing
Kela for nothing
Dyson for nothing
Heredia for nothing
I’d say the org is doing well cashing in their assets
Rich Hill’s Elbow
It’s gonna be a long decade for Pittsburgh.
swartnp7
I don’t think think the cupboard is bare though. Thomas, Priester, Keller, Malone as SP
Cruz, Hayes, Gonzalez, Peguero are solid.
On a side note, I really liked the pickup of Anthony Alford to see what they can get out of him.
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I was against trading Marte but I am glad that Cherington did not go stupid and sell the ranch.
I think in Holland’s case nobody wanted him.
I also hope that Kela resigns with the Pirates as he is a good closer when healthy and may not be as much of a head case as it may seem.
There is nothing more disheartening than to have a lead in the ninth inning and lose it over and over again.
swartnp7
I think we got good return on Marte. Better than the DBacks got, IMO.
And Vazquez was out of their control, sadly.
Crappy choices along with crappy luck for sure though.
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Swart-I think that Freddy meant that they should have traded Vasquez when they could have instaead of not taking what was offered.
swartnp7
That’s what I figured, I just don’t think what was offered was enough and thus, wasn’t disappointed that NH held on to him. Hindsight, sure, trade him.
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Of course we really do not know what the final offer was but that guy was clearly a premier closer with many years of control at a reasonable price.
The Yankees with Cole and the Dodgers with Vasquez clearly showed a reluctance to part with any excellent minor league players and they both are still looking for recent titles.
I do not doubt that NH wanted a catcher in the deal and the Dodgers have two very good young prospects.
But the Pirates clearly miss Vasquez as he fit the definition of a closer.
Too bad for him and the Pirates.
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Freddy with all due respect do you really think Dyson and Heredia were assets?
Kela and Archer were hurt.
That is the reason that he traded Cole with two years left-he was afraid that he would get hurt like every other pitcher in baseball.
Posters generally say that Cherington got two good prospects for Marte.
Do you really think that Reynolds and Crick for Cutch was a bad trade?
Vasquez was MVP of the Pirates.
The Archer trade was the outlier although the HOF has quit calling on the two Ray’s players this year.
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It truly amazes me that some posters can predict the future and even for a decade in advance!
Goku the Knowledgable One
The Future Predicted Correctly :
1 Meadows
2 Marte
3 Cutch
4 Bell
The future Predicted wrongly:
1 Erik Gonzalez
2 Frazier
3 Newman
4 Bell
…its really not that complicated.
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Freddy- There were specific reasons why each player on your first list was traded or kept and it does not take a brain surgeon to figure them out.
And Bell is on both lists.
You are right it is very simple Freddy.
Goku the Knowledgable One
Specific reason being cheap owner.
You keep those guys together , you win games and then sign them again.
The team really fell off the wagon once Cutch was forced out.
I think they could’ve recovered had they
A. kept McCutchen
B. Gotten an actual prospect for Cole
(Could’ve held out like they did with Vazquez)
C. Replaced Cole with a veteran free agent arm
You see, Nutting isnt mandated to re-sign players or sign free agents , so he doesn’t,… so it puts whoever the GM is at a huge disadvantage when negotiating trades. No matter who the GM is, they will fail.
Salary cap floor is the only slight solution. Sending Bob to Mars is the only real solution
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Freddy I understand your position and there is some logic to it and while I do not totally disagree I think that the small market team philosophy prevailed with the Pirates.They get rid of guys with 1-2 years left to get something for them if they are going to sign big contracts.
There is no way that McCutcheon is worth $50 M for a small market team unless he puts them over the top.
Big ticket FA pitchers are $500M a dozen.How many work out.
Nutting is a businessman who watches the bottom line.He is willing to spend when the Pirates are actually good,but adheres strictly to the philosophy otherwise,which is almost all of the time.
He is continually bashed on here with some justification but the real culprit is MLB who only cares about the TV and other revenue generated from the large market teams.
Since 1991, one small market WS winner.
That says it all.
Goku the Knowledgable One
That’s why the Pirates have like 16 fans this season.
Goku the Knowledgable One
At what point does “not worth that much” end?
They didn’t think Marlon Byrd was worth a modest 8 Mil / year to be the crucial cleanup hitter and elusive answer to RF woes during their contention years.
Had they brought back Byrd for the 16 Mil / 2 years
And Morneau for the beyond modest 12 Mil / 2 (AAV 6.250 mil !!!!) he took with the Rockies
.. the Pirates easily win a pennant if they bring back even just one of them.
Instead they rolled with bench player Travis Snider as their everyday RF..
Snider batted .232 with 4 HR during a crucial 98 win campaign for the Buccos.
Byrd batted .247 with 23
When the chips HAD TO be ALL IN , they let Byrd walk and rolled with ………
……..
. …..
Travis Snider 1.2 million guy who Byrd initially was justifiably brought in to replace for the 2013 run.
Yes, they did win 98 games 2015 BUT the whole point all along was that Cutch, Cole, and AJ were carrying a team that had plenty of holes even after Marte came along to help.
They had a solid rotation with an amazing pen and an unbelievable defensive catcher.
A few uber talented core players… and holes at 1B and RF that literally never got filled for more than an instant (late 2013), and looked like a great recipe for success.
It wasn’t important enough for Bob to spend as little as 6 million on Moreau, or 8 on Byrd to try to go get the damn thing.
In 2014 with all momentum pointing towards a deep run, a potential juggernaut.. Bob let everyone walk and rebuilt with what he had. Rinse repeat , hope for another miracle….
(prob wont happen in our lifetime under Bob).
-Thanks for chatting btw. We all need a good venting, some of us are still heartbroken, many of us feel robbed by Nutting.
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You raise good points here’I always liked both Byrd ( after he gained,ah,weight),and Morneau.He actually beat out Harrison for the batting title in 2014..And Ike Davis and the righthanded hitter whose name escapes me were a below average platoon.I forgot about that.But you must remember that Morneau literally I think had three rbi’s in September which I think turned them off along with his lack of power in his last couple of years.
I think that with Byrd they probably thought that Polanco would be soon coming up and to play him in right which he did half way through 2014.Lunchpail was a good fourth outfielder but no one except the Orioles thought he could start.
I do agree though that Nutting could have splurged when they did have a good team instead of taking his normal routine approach.Sometimes you have to go for the gusto.
You are a true fan Freddy.You bleed with your team.That tells me that you are a Pirate lifer whether you want to be or not.
But as a poster here told me three years ago,basically that the Pirates as a small market team have a snow balls chance in hell of winning a WS.I hope that he was wrong but in all honesty it struck a chord in me that this is not 1979 MLB anymore.It is all about money.Where is John Galbreath when you need him most..
Goku the Knowledgable One
It saddens me that I haven’t watched a game in years.
And its not because I’m not a fan, but because I saw where it was headed and refuse to acknowledge a dead horse with very very little upside
*see last place record with mediocre farm
Just like I saw where it was headed when Gerrit Cole was drafted 1st overall (we were the 2020 Padres, the 2016 Cubs.. only Neal and Bob blew it.. well mainly Bob.
And just like I saw where it was headed when they used the Steelers playoff loss as a good time to dump Cole and his 10 Mil cap figure.
I knew the Cole trade was a disaster immediately, as I was already very familiar with all 3 lackluster pieces headed back.
(Musgrove is ok.. idk what’s he like a Kris Benson?) Hes def not great or game changing.. he has great stuff but is a long reliever being stretched out IMO
Hey, maybe if we’re lucky enough we’ll have someone offer us prospect David Wright and we can take Ty Wigginton instead 🙂
Moran was already a bust when we got him.. should’ve at least gone after Derek Fisher so he could become a bust with the team instead of already being DOA 🙂
Maybe one day I’ll find joy in my buccos again.
Nothing beats the excitement for those wildcard games.
Nothing beats that Cueto game.
And God would I even love to care so much again even just to scream at the tv for Hurdle to get Volquez the hell out of there.
I just miss the excitement, the rush, heck even being above .500
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Freddy,not sure what you meant but real fans follow their team through thick and thin.