SEPT. 25: Clevinger doesn’t have any UCL damage, per Robert Murray. Rather, he has been been diagnosed with a right elbow posterior impingement has received a cortisone shot, Cassavell tweets. The Padres haven’t given up on a wild-card return for Clevinger, according to manager Jayce Tingler (via Cassavell). “We’re optimistic that he will be able to pitch going forward,” said Tingler.
SEPT. 24: Clevinger has a sprained elbow, and the Padres won’t know until Sunday or perhaps at the beginning of next week whether he’ll be able to resume throwing this season, according to Acee. The likelihood is that Clevinger will at least miss the wild-card round, Jon Heyman of MLB Network tweets.
SEPT. 23, 5:56pm: The Padres are worried they’ll lose Clevinger for the playoffs because of a muscle strain or tendonitis, Kevin Acee of the San Diego Union-Tribune reports. He’s scheduled to undergo an MRI.
4:18pm: Padres right-hander Mike Clevinger threw a 1-2-3 first inning with two strikeouts against the Angels on Wednesday, but he departed after that for an undisclosed reason. The Padres were not planning on pulling Clevinger that soon in the game, AJ Cassavell of MLB.com tweets.
It’s worth noting that Clevinger had his previous start last Saturday pushed back because of bicep tightness, so this situation could be especially alarming news for the playoff-bound Padres. San Diego sent a haul to Cleveland for Clevinger at the Aug. 31 trade deadline, and the 29-year-old has since been highly effective over three starts. As a member of the Padres, Clevinger owns a 3.00 ERA with 17 strikeouts and three walks across 18 innings.
Based on what he has done as a Padre (not to mention his performance with the Indians over the past couple seasons), Clevinger could be a major difference maker in the playoffs for San Diego. The Padres do boast two other front-end starters in Dinelson Lamet and Zach Davies, while Chris Paddack and Garrett Richards offer another pair of proven options, but they won’t be at their best if they have to enter the postseason without Clevinger.
Perfect timing.
Broke training protocol?
This reminds me when some team traded Drew Pomeranz to the Red Sox without disclosing all his medical files from their secret player database. Oh, wait….
And yet we ended up with the guy who got two TJ surgeries, and the sox got a good pitcher.
Padres ended up re signing Pomeranz this off season anyways
rizdak, Don’t speculate. If that’s TRUTH it will come out….
But Clevinger was traded because he broke Covid-19 protocol with the Indians. And his teammates wanted him gone. It wasn’t because the Indians found out about a medical issue with arm.
Smoke screen.
“and his teammates wanted him gone”.
Doubt that very much, bro.
@Halo…
If that were true, why is Plesac still there?
Plesac is a young guy who screwed up and was open about it. He didn’t blame &/or “rat on” Clevinger. Clevinger hid his involvement & THAT was definitely the more egregious act. Both guilty but not the exact same case.
My thoughts exactly. Couldn’t have happened to a better executive!
sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/padres/story/2020-…
Doesnt look good. Was watching the game, kept shaking out his elbow
@imindless
Clevinger is always shaking and twitching on the mound. I think they’re being cautious with him. If yesterday’s game had been in the post season, he’d have probably stayed out there.
Preller moves have all backfired
The Mitch Moreland and Mariners trades were awful at the time
Nah… the Nola trade is great… for the M’s.
How so?
Renotribefan….I’m pretty sure the Indians “did” get more than just Naylor for Clevinger.
Quantril,Arias and Cantillo will end up being the prize.
You’re right. I was referring to the immediate offensive impact.
Preller haters gonna hate no matter what happens.
Some people like cheats. Preller is an unethical cheat.
padreforlife comments have all backfired
Really informed Padre fan. Moreland stinks, Castro stinks, Nola stinks, Altavilla stinks see common theme? = Preller got bamboozled agin
Padrecryerforlife, Get a life. Why don’t you go hate on a new team
I could tell you about padreforlife but I’d get banned for saying it. To put it simply he’s not too smart.
And u are
Can’t win them all.
Grisham/Davies, Profar, Cronenworth/Pham, Rosenthal have worked out.
Nola, Moreland, Pagan haven’t.
I think it’s a little early yet to grade any of Preller’s deadline trades. Besides, Profar and Rosenthal will likely be playing elsewhere next year. As for Pagan, there’s a reason he gets traded every offseason.
Regarding Clevinger, this move is hopefully just a precautionary measure. No reason to take an unnecessary risk in a meaninglessness game.
Rosenthal been ok he gone after this year, Pagan stinks, Cronenworth hitting .235 last 15 let’s not put him in Cooperstown yet. Pham has worked out? He’s hitting .200 Lol
combine him with Klentak and maybe you have an okay GM
Really? How so? Clevinger has two years of control left and was pitching excellent before getting hurt. Trevor Rosenthal has been lights out. While Nola has struggled in the batter’s box, he’s been outstanding defensively. The Moreland trade was a bit of an overpay, but if you are saying all his moves have backfired, then you’re not looking at how the players he acquired are doing.
padreforlife, “all backfired”. ALL is a very strong word. Zach Davies and Trent Grisham for Eric Lauer and Luis Urias? AJ got the better of that trade! Tommy Pham and Jake Cronenworth? Another GREAT trade. Renfroe is hitting .150 and Cronenworth is a potential ROTY.
The funny thing about trades is that both teams want to “win” the trade. The teams are all quite competitive with each other. I think Preller has done alright.
Tommy Pham stinks. Grisham .249 hitter. Davies been good he’s also coming into walk year so bye after next year or deadline next year. Cronenworth but he’s coming back to reality .239 his last 15 games
based on your opinion without taking into consideration any facts.
And we are in the playoffs.
Padres had a bad September at 12-8. .600 baseball
53% of trans make playoffs let’s plan parade
you are delusional
As a tribe fan, this is always what was worrisome about Clevinger. His delivery is pretty violent, he’s already had a TJ, and he’s had injuries ranging from nagging to significant pretty much every year. I think the COVID controversy was used as an excuse to trade him as I don’t think the Indians had any intention of even trying to sign him long term given his potential for a significant injury.
I hope he’s ok and can pitch in the playoffs this year.
Since their window is about to close it doesn’t matter if they wanted to sign him long-term or not. Could have used him for their last playoff push or two then let someone else overpay to sign him if they were that worried.
I think the return can certainly be open to criticism (although we’ll have to see how the prospects pan out). However, I really don’t feel this hurts us much this year. Bieber and Plesac make for a lethal 1-2 punch, and then you’ve got Carrasco and Civale. If any injuries, you have McKenzie.
Teams like the Indians can’t afford to let players just walk. As a fan, it sucks, but that’s the way it is. Just wish they would’ve gotten something better than Naylor. He may turn out to be good with regular at bats, but isn’t going to help much this year I fear.
@Renotribefan Yes it does hurt the Indians this year. They do not have 5 starters that are better than Mike Clevinger and if any of their starters gets injured or struggles, they’re gonna wish they still had him. And absolutely the Indians can afford to let players just walk! A championship is worth more than any prospect. And besides, Clevinger can’t “just walk” for two more years.
Tell that to Boston and the Cubs. Both championships seem a long time ago.
The Indians window is far from closed they way they crank out starting pitchers.
Pitchers? A few. Hitters? Like two in 20 years
@Cey Hey no team whose window isn’t closing trades Mike Clevinger or someone like him.
@mikeembleton
No starters better than Clevinger??
Shane Bieber is holding on line 1
@AndyMeyer did you fail Kindergarten reading class? I said they don’t have 5 starters who are better than Clevinger. They have 3. And only 2 with enough innings to qualify for the ERA title. Trading Clevinger hurt their rotation.
In an absolute sense, I’d agree. Same with how if Jeff Bezos drops a penny on the sidewalk, he’s poorer than he was before.
But their pitching is more than good enough with or without Clevinger and their top 4 are better than most top 4s with or without him. That’s my point.
And while there was no way to know prior to the trade, now that he’s hurt and potentially out of the playoffs, yes, the Tribe is a better team this year having traded him. They simply needed to get a better offensive contributor for him and I don’t think this would even be a discussion.
And yes, I’d trade a championship this year for 20 years of futility moving forward. However, with no guarantees like that, the Indians CANNOT afford to let guys like Clevinger or Lindor walk. Sorry…I disagree with you on that. I’ve been a fan since I was born in 77 and I know how valuable a title is.
I can’t believe I am commenting on your example, but, as a Trillionaire… if Jeff Bezos dropped a penny, it would take him around 2.5 seconds to bend down and pick it up. In those 2.5 seconds he earns around $6,500 dollars. It’s literally not worth it for him to pick up dropped money.
I hate myself for this comment.
@mikembelton
First off, take your petty “kindergarten reading” comment elsewhere. Grow up and have a conversation instead of childish insults. Apologies if I misread
The Tribe still have 4 bulldog arms in Bieber, Cookie, Civale and Plesac. One of the best (if not the best) built rotations in the game. I seriously doubt they would trade Clevinger if they didn’t think these guys could carry the team. Supply equals demand. And they’ve pretty much carried this team into the postseason with a beyond mediocre offense
Clevinger is great but, as shown with tonight’s game, the guy can’t stay healthy.
At the end of the day, I wouldn’t want to play the Indians in a short series with that rotation
Well said, Andy!!!
.
They Clevinger from the angels
@Renotribefan Cleveland’s pitching is overrated. And you will realize that once the playoffs start.
Prospects aren’t any more guaranteed to pan out than a championship this year is. Cleveland can easily afford to let Clevinger and Lindor walk for nothing. Doing that is not going to lead to “20 years of futility” and if it does then that probably would have happened even if they had traded them. Your Indians are contending NOW. Not later, NOW. Get the championship now and let the later be later.
@AndyMeyer the point is trading Clev makes their rotation worse. You don’t deliberately make any part of your team worse in the middle of a playoff push. When is the last time a team traded a core player in the middle of the season and won a World Series that year? Heck, when’s the last time they’ve even MADE IT to the World Series?
Cleveland pitching overrated? I think the numbers say otherwise. They don’t make the playoffs with that putrid offense and that “overrated” pitching staff. I’ll take pitching over offense any day in the postseason.
How did it make their rotation worse when 3 out of the 5 starters have a sub 3 ERA? What other team can say they have that? And who cares about an ERA title. They are legit arms.
Clevinger was never a core player. Trade rumors continued to swirl around that guy all the time. Why? Because they have ridiculous depth. If McKenzie can figure out some health concerns, they’ve got another young stud in the making. Ask ANY team in the majors and they’ll probably tell you they’d love to have any one of their young starters.
And can you blame the Indians for getting that kind of package for a pitcher who can’t stay healthy?
Again, they wouldn’t have traded him if they didn’t think their pitchers could shoulder the load, nor would they have traded him if he didn’t have health issues
And what good is a starting pitcher if he’s not healthy and can’t throw in the postseason? Ask the Padres….
Indians made game 7 of the World Series in 2016
So are Plesac and Carrasco. The SP depth is what allowed them to trade Clevinger. Nothing more or less. Thing is, I believe Quantrill is going to be a damn fine SP also in the next year or 2. The Indian’s window is far from closing. Quite the opposite in fact.
@AndyMeyer Cleveland’s pitching is overrated. They will get knocked out in the first round of the playoffs.
Trading Clev made their rotation worse because they had to replace him with a starter who isn’t as good. They did not have 5 starters who were better than him.
Their “depth” will be exposed in October. Just wait and see.
@cdav teams whose windows aren”t closing don’t trade great players like Clevinger and Lindor (who they haven’t traded yet but it seems inevitable that they will this offseason). When is the last time a team traded a player that good and made a deep playoff run immediately afterwards?
Quantrill is good
It was.
I doubt anyone’s window slams shut if they have a useful pipeline.
Top two to the playoffs.
Cleveland’s does if they run around trading away all their best players. They need to add to the team, not subtract.
Mike…I think you’re missing the point. Nobody is saying that Clevinger isn’t good or that the Tribe had 5 starters better than him. As I mentioned above, in an absolute sense, yes, the rotation got worse.
However, with Bieber and Plesac fronting the rotation, Clevinger would’ve likely been our #3 starter in the playoffs. Instead, we’ll probably use Carrasco. Is that a downgrade? Probably. However, Carrasco is better than most team’s #3 starters. Also, Civale is better than most team’s #4 starters. So if all goes according to plan (which it rarely does), it really shouldn’t matter.
The pitching is what has this team where it is. If we do make an early exit from the playoffs, I can almost guarantee it’ll be because of a lack of offensive production and NOT because of the starting pitching faulting. In other words, we’ll lose games 2-1 instead of 10-9.
@Renotribefan that’s exactly it. If you are serious about contending you don’t deliberately downgrade your rotation in the first place.
I’ll ask it again: When is the last time a team traded a starter as good as Clevinger and then went deep in the following postseason?
Clevinger had a 5.65 FIP with a pitiful 4.4 BB% to just 8.3 K% at the time of the trade.
He was statistically the Indians worst starter, not one of their best
Yes, he since kept the walks down in the few innings he threw against the Angels in Anaheim, a putrid away from Coors Rockies team in San Diego (that still scored 4 in 5 IP off him) and a putrid hitting away from SF Giants club in SD – but his very low for him K rate continued (8.5% after the deal) and his long standing durability issues are showing themselves again
Even if counting the 3 post trade games with the two extremely advantages matchups, his current seasons 4.23 FIP is only slightly better than rookie McKenzie (4.40) and significantly worse than their other 4 starters (Beiber 2.13, Chivale 3.62, Carrasco 3.51, Plesac 3.30,) plus there is now the still unknown Quantrill added as well (went 4 innings allowing 1 hit, 1 BB, against the 2nd best scoring AL club in his only start for Cleveland, and has a 3.18 FIP overall since the trade)
People seem to be judging Clevinger solely off his past, and not what he was showing himself as in 2020 specifically- and what he was showing himself as is a guy who was losing it fast and likely going to be experiencing arm troubles soon (which, he currently is already)
Meanwhile the Indians got what will possibly be their 2021-22+ starting 1B, 2B, SS and 2 SP, for what is arguably only their 5th best starter this season, and easily the most expensive.
So this idea that the team was hurting this season is wrong based off his 2020 performance and injury risk – they made a very calculated move to dramatically improve their chances in the future while only really taking a “is Clevinger likely to be better than McKenzie/Quantrill for the remainder of this regular season” gamble (and the answer was, no, not really before, and especially now since the high injury risk is showing itself already)
Very strange, looking at the Indians stats again in the little time since I posted that, B-R seems to have had a stat dump update.
The current Indians starter options, against Clevinger, ranked by current, updated FIP
2.06 – Beiber
3.18 – Quantrill (most all in BP)
3.31 – Plesac
3.52 – Carrasco
3.62 – Chivale
4.14 – McKenzie
4.14 – Clevinger
So again, trading 2020 Clevinger is just not what some people here are trying to make it out to be. He has not pitched like pre-2020 Clevinger up to this point. And the injury risk that was always present seems to have already taken over as well.
One can try to make an “experience” argument, but actual performance being shown this season indicates Clevinger was about the worst option the Indians had
Darkstar61:One thing you have to remember about your 2021-22 starting 1B, 2B, SS and 2 SP- none of them were good enough to start for the Padres or be the leader to take their respective positions in the future.
Hosmer > Naylor
Cronenworth & Abrams > Miller
Tatis & Abrams > Arias
Morejon, Gore, Patino & Weathers > Quantrill
Nola & Campusano >>> Hedges
Don’t get me wrong, I am a big fan of Quantrill! Yet the Padres decided he wasn’t good enough to be the #5 starter. I wouldn’t count on building my future team with the Padres second and third line prospects.
@darkstar61 Indians only have 3 starters with lower ERA’s than Clevinger this year: Bieber, Plesac and Carrasco. And Plesac doesn’t have enough IP to qualify for the ERA title this year. Absolutely trading Clevinger hurt their rotation. People keep saying they have enough starters in house to replace him. But teams that are in win now mode like the Indians don’t downgrade any part of the roster under any circumstances.
You say that this trade makes them better for the future and only arguably makes them worse now. The future doesn’t matter for the Indians. They need to win NOW while they still control Lindor. And losing Clevinger also hurts them for 2021 and 2022 because he still has two more years of control.
As far as Clevinger being the most expensive starter, once again, it doesn’t matter. He’s still not very expensive in an absolute sense and easily provides surplus value on what he is being paid, otherwise he would have been non-tendered.
I’ll ask it again: When is the last time a team traded a pitcher of Clevinger’s caliber and made a deep run in the next postseason?
ERA is an almost completely meaningless stat, and especially over short bursts. Clevinger’s 2020 highlights that fact very well
July 31st he had almost no control. Over just 4 innings he walked 5, and the Twins hitters landed 6 hits. He gave up 4 runs, but realistically, that should have been even higher based off the rate of baserunners
Aug 5th, again, zero control. That night he walked 5 over 5.2, and would have likely given up a bunch of runs if he were facing anyone other than a Reds club that couldn’t score a run to save their lives at the time. (They scored 5 total off only 15 hits in the 4 games against the Indians that series. Clevinger’s lack of control somehow resulted in him not giving up any runs, but that was just a combination of luck and Cincinnatis inability to manage a hit at all against anyone they faced)
Aug 26th, he has control back after his demotion, but gets pounded by the Twins yet again. This time its 8 hits to go with the 1 BB, spread over just 6 innings. Luckily for him though, none are ever put together, and he manages to escape with just 2 runs allowed
In none of those games did he strike out more than 6 guys, and each time he had pitch count issues the whole time. Overall it was
3 GS
15.2 IP
16 Hits
11 Walks
3 HR (for a disgusting 1.7 HR/9)
And an amazing 277 pitches thrown (more than 18 an inning) to do it. That he escaped with only 6 runs surrendered, especially with a 1.72 WHIP and 3 HR allowed, was pure dumb luck and anything but skill shown.
His ERA is about as hallow and meaningless as you’ll find; hence the much more realistic 5.65 FIP he showed in Cleveland this season.
Statistically, he is the single worst starter the Indians have used (even worse than Plutko) even if he did somehow get unbelievably lucky with the other team being unable to capitalize with many runs
Mike…your question is a valid one, but honestly I don’t care enough to research it. However, why limit it to pitchers and trades? When was the last time a team lost a starter and went on a deep run? I know it’s not a trade, so it’s a bit apples and oranges, but the Nationals did let Harper walk and won the WS.
The Bauer trade improved us last year. I know we didn’t make the playoffs, but it improved the club.
But that doesn’t matter. Most teams don’t have the depth to be able to trade a pitcher of Clevinger’s caliber. At best, he’s the #3 on the Tribe…perhaps #4 behind Bieber, Plesac, and Carrasco..Traded to the Padres…he’s the clear cut ace. THAT’S the difference here. You think the Tribe’s staff is overrated. Ok…I can’t argue with an opinion. But watching them everyday, they really are that good, and that’s where we disagree and why you think the trade is so detrimental.
Its actually such a silly question when you think about it at all.
I mean, why limit it to losing a player in trade or the FA market? Are not injuries right before the playoffs the same as trading a guy at the break? (Even worse, since you only trade guys you feel you can be without. Injuries don’t work like that)
So can a team lose a starter to injury and still go deep into the playoffs?
Well you’re an Indians fan, Renotribefan, so you likely remember when the Indians went to extra innings of game 7 of the 2016 World Series without their #2 or #3 starters (Salazar and Carrasco were both lost in September)
So even if you discount the fact Clevinger was statistically the worst starter the Indians have used in 2020, the team has proven in the last 5 seasons you can lose 2 dominant starters right before the playoffs and still make it as far as you possibly can in the postseason
@Renotribefan…
“The Bauer trade improved us last year. I know we didn’t make the playoffs, but it improved the club.”
No it did not! Bauer’s WAR since the trade dwarfs everyone the Indians got for him combined.
“Most teams don’t have the depth to be able to trade a pitcher of Clevinger’s caliber.”
Nor do the Indians. By your own admittance, he is one of their 4 best starters. If they are serious about contending they shouldn’t be trying to downgrade the rotation in the first place. There are other pieces they could trade to upgrade the offense.
(Enjoy the accidental upvote)
Indians starters used by stats,
FIP – Bieber 2.06, Quantrill 3.18 (mostly reliever,) Plesac 3.31, Carrasco 3.52, Chivale 3.62, McKenzie 4.14, Plutko 5.47
– DEAD LAST is Clevinger at 5.65 with Cle
WHIP – Plesac 0.781, Bieber 0.866, McKenzie 0.957, Quantrill 1.029, Carrasco 1.226, Chivale 1.257, Plutko 1.350
– DEAD LAST is Clevinger at 1.368
H/9 – Bieber 5.4, McKenzie 6.0, Plesac 6.3, Carrasco 7.5, Quantrill 7.7, Chivale 9.3, Plutko 9.8
– 3rd from last, Clevinger at 7.9
BB/9 – Plesac 0.7, Quantrill 1.5, Chivale 2.1, Bieber 2.4, McKenzie 2.6, Carrasco 3.5
– DEAD LAST is Clevinger at 4.4
K/9 – Bieber 14.2, McKenzie 11.2, Carrasco 10.7, Plesac 9.2, Quantrill 8.5, Chivale 8.4, Plutko 4.7
– 2nd from last, Clevinger at 8.3
SO/BB – Plesac 12.50, Bieber 5.81, Quantrill 5.50, McKenzie 4.33, Chivale 4.06, Carrasco 3.08, Plutko 2.0
– DEAD LAST is Clevinger at 1.91
HR/9 – Bieber 0.8, Quantrill 0.8, Carrasco 1.0, Chivale 1.0, Plesac 1.3, McKenzie 1.7, Plutko 1.7
– DEAD LAST is Clevinger at 2.0
You still don’t seem to be looking at what Clevinger actually was this season having to face Central teams – there is zero question, he was easily the worst starter the team used. He was garbage, through and through (and now he’s hurt, as he has often been in his career)
The Indians lead the AL in basically every single pitching catalogy there is, and their stats would be better had they traded Clevinger before the season rather than waiting till the break. Some “downgrade”
At the end of the day the pitcher’s only job is to pitch as many innings as possible while allowing as few runs as possible. Indians only have two pitchers who have done that as well as Clevinger. If Clevinger truly was garbage and trading him truly was addition by subtraction as you say, Cleveland wouldn’t have been able to get anything for him.
Still waiting for you to answer the question of who was the last team that traded a pitcher of Clevinger’s caliber (or really any core player) and then went deep in the next postseason.
Darkstar…don’t forget Bauer nearly chopped his pinky off with his drone. And yes, I was at games 6&7 and it still haunts me to this day. Josh Tomlin got smoked in game 6 and Kluber just ran out of gas in game 7. How David Ross hits a HR off of Andrew Miller still astounds me. Without that, Rajai’s HR is a World Series winner. Not that I’m still not over it…
Mike…yes, the Bauer trade made us better. I don’t care what his WAR is. Reyes has been a solid contributor offensively. Puig did great last year. It’s not always about stats. It’s about the TEAM. You could have a starting rotation of Bieber, DeGrom, Bauer, Darvish, and even the mighty Mike Clevinger, but that team will go winless if you are leading off and I’m batting cleanup.
That’s not the Padres philosophy.
@Renotribefan so basically you are saying that your opinion matters more than the stats?
Again, Trevor Bauer has posted more WAR since the trade than everyone the Indians got for him COMBINED. Obviously the trade will help the Indians beyond 2020 because Bauer will be a FA and the Indians can bring him back if they really want but beyond 2020 doesn’t matter for them. Their window is closing so they need to win NOW. Not later, NOW.
First, you really have to step into at least the 1990s, and preferably the 2020s, with your odd obsession with a meaninless ERA stat.
Clevinger got about as lucky as any pitcher you’ll find, but he pitched absolutely atrocious – as can be seen by him being dead last in most all of the important, talent indicating stats for the Indians this year. Literally Plutko even pitched better than Clevinger in their respective 4 starts, and the team literally got better by removing Clevinger with him pitching that way. He was garbage on the mound for the Indians, and thats not a debatable question – its a hard, undeniable fact
And second, I already pointed out a team that lost 2 dominating starting pitchers (would have ranked 8th and 16th best ERAs in AL) that were lost to the team in September – yet the team still went to extars in game 7 of the WS.
Losing 2 top-20 Starters to injury right before the playoffs, and still going as far as you possibly can in a Postseason, more than meets your odd criteria for your silly, pointless question you are asking. (And their could be other answers, I’m just not going to bother looking up something so pointless when an even better, and more comparable to the situation, answer has already been given)
But also, not all teams have possibly the greatest team pitching perfomance ever seen, as this Indians squad is showing themselves as this season. So yeah, possibly the best team pitching performance ever can probably stand to lose the guy who literally pitched the absolute worst of any starter they used.
“Again, Trevor Bauer has posted more WAR since”
Ohhhh, you’re now going to act like you’re a WAR believer?
Okay fantastic;
fWAR by Indians used starters in 2020;
3.2 – Bieber
1.4 – Chivale
1.4 – Carrasco
1.4 – Plesac
0.5 – McKenzie
0.2 – Quantrill
0.1 – Plutko
0.0 – Clevinger
Well lookie there, yet another important stat Clevinger ranks DEAD LAST in among all 2020 Indians starters.
…but sure, keep regurgitating your same tired, factless spiel (as we all know you will)
@darkstar61 you can hoot and holler about luck all you want. Clevinger seems to get “lucky” every year. At some point, you have to just realize that good pitchers create their own luck. The game is played on the field, not on your little Excel spreadsheet.
You say the team got better by removing Clevinger from the rotation. Yet the team has gone from a .600 winning percentage to a .579 winning percentage since trading Clevinger and been passed up by the Twins for 3rd in the division. Sounds like trading Clevinger indeed did make the team worse. This will have actual ramifications come playoff time when they are stuck playing stronger opponents and losing their home field advantage throughout the postseason.
And the fact still remains that Trevor Bauer has outproduced everyone he was traded for on a WAR basis since the trade. That trade was TERRIBLE for the Indians from a win now perspective. And I am not interested in listening to your asinine drivel about how Bauer was a clubhouse cancer or whatever.
“you can hoot and holler about luck all you want. Clevinger seems to get “lucky” every year”
2.49 FIP, 2.71 ERA – was unlucky last year …so, you’re wrong
“The game is played on the field, not on your little Excel spreadsheet.”
0.0 WAR for Clevinger, worst of all Indians starters. Even worse than Plutko – but we know, you hate actual stats that indicate talent levels
“You say the team got better by removing Clevinger from the rotation. Yet the team has gone from a .600 winning percentage to a .579 winning percentage since trading Clevinger”
So now your theory is Clevinger pitches every game? That seems odd
Anyway, Clevinger was 1-1. The guy who replaced him in the rotation, McKenzie, is 2-1. 2-1 (666) > 1-1 (500) sooooo… you’re wrong there too (see there, I used 1920s stats maybe you can understand, just for you!)
“Trevor Bauer has outproduced everyone he was traded for on a WAR basis”
Oh wait, now you don’t hate facts? I’m so confused trying to keep up on your random selectiveness, that changes to fit whatever you need it to. Anyway, yeah, Clevinger is a 0.0 WAR – easily worst of the starters the Indians used. So since now you like stats, Clevinger was worst
Oh, and as far as Bauer?
Bauer – 2.5 WAR in 2020, 0.6 for Cin in 2019. So thays 3.1 WAR total
0.6 WAR – Reyes
0.6 WAR – Puig
2.9 WAR – Chivale (who took the then empty Bauer rotation spot)
Already that’s 4.1 WAR, and it’s way more WAR from the Indians removing Bauer than the 3.1 Bauer has produced himself (and we haven’t even accounted for all the negative WAR that having Puig and Reyes over the alternatives would have been yet, so that number would only go up further)
So in actuality, the Indians got dramatically better by trading Bauer (plus, they have Reyes and Allen and Nova and Moss for years to come) …and once again we are left with you being flat out wrong
2.71 ERA sounds pretty lucky to me. If one of my starters has that low of an ERA I’m just rolling with it.
And on the field, the Indians only have 3 starters with lower ERA’s than Clevinger and one doesn’t qualify for the ERA title.
No, Clevinger doesn’t pitch every game. But clearly the Indians have gotten worse since trading him, which isn’t surprising considering whoever took his place in the rotation has a lower ERA.
Bauer was not traded for Civale so Civale’s WAR is not relevant here. Only Reyes, Allen and Puig’s WARs are. And Bauer has destroyed them in that category since the trade. You like Aaron Civale? Ok. He could have replaced someone else. Someone who isn’t as good as Bauer.
Repeat after me: Contending teams don’t trade core players
So you don’t know what constitutes “getting lucky” with regards to the amount of runners who have scored but shouldn’t have (or vise versa) …we aren’t surprised in the least
Then you’re oddly back to ERA, despite having just said you don’t actually understand it really
0.0 WAR = still literally worthless though. Thats literally what 0 means, afterall (but you keep ignoring that, as you jump back and forth between both trying to use and ignore WAR, to fit whatever odd thing you’re trying to make up at in that specific sentence)
Then you so oddly repeat a team winning percentage to try to make an individual pitching performance point …again ignoring that we literally know who literally took Clevingers starts, and that starter has won 67% (2-1) of his games compared to Clevinger having won just 50% (1-1) of his when with the Indians
“Bauer was not traded for Civale so Civale’s WAR is not relevant here.”
You do know that teams only get 5 rotation spots, right?
Civale literally could not take the mound if Bauer was still on the Indians. Chivale was called up on August 4th, 2019 with the sole purpose of replacing Bauer. Had Bauer never been traded on July 31st, Chivale never pitches – trading Bauer adds Chivale to the Indians as much as it added anyone else
So yeah, Chivale is the single most important part of the equation (he’s the whole reason why they could ever trade Bauer. Thats what happens when you trade a guy you have an internal replacement for – you open the spot for the replacement, and then that replacement guy gets to play. Bauer was traded so Chivale could play, everything else was added bonus)
So again, the Indians got dramatically better by removing Bauer for Chivale, and getting other guys for the club on top of it. That’s not in question, that’s just fact
“Repeat after me: Contending teams don’t trade core players”
In the last 12ish months, the Indians traded Kluber, Bauer and Clevinger (plus let Salazar walk) and …just swept a 4 game series from what was the 2nd best team in the AL to put them into the playoffs
Oh, and that team that removed 4 AS pitchers is also sitting with a team 145 ERA+ …I dare you to try to find a better one in history. Go ahead, I’ll wait. Go find me a team of pitchers that have ever had even close to as strong of a team ERA+ …and again, this from a team that removed 4 AS starters over the last 12ish months (it’s almost like trading from depth doesn’t actually hurt you – and where have I heard that before?)
So I’m not sure what to say at this point, as it’s almost as if youre just trying to embarrass yourself here – literally nothing you are saying holds any water, or makes any sense at all. You are literally arguing the exact, complete opposite of hard, undeniable facts.
There is no debate on the things you are trying to debate, which is why you are having to selectively embrace stats sometimes but ignore them others, or point to team stats as if it’s a reflection of individual talent, or even act as if replacing a guys literal spot isn’t somehow replacing the guy. It’s literally insane watching the knots youre having to tie yourself into as you desperately hold onto unbelievably, undeniablly wrong stances
Didn’t you just use pitcher win-loss record to make a point 3 comments above? And you are seriously going to knock anyone else on Earth for what stats they use? When you use the most worthless stat there is?
@darkstar61 Jesus Christ. Amazing how you can speak so much and say so little.
Clevinger is BETTER than McKenzie. That is why he has a lower ERA. And why the Indians as a team have faltered since trading Clevinger.
Like I said. Civale could have replaced someone else. Trevor Bauer was not the Indians’ worst starter when he was traded. Trading him made the team worse. He has produced more WAR than everyone the Indians got for him combined since the trade.
The Indians have no depth. Their lack of depth will be exposed come playoff time.
And as far as the Indians removing 4 AS pitchers over the past 12 months. If they get bounced in the first or second round of the playoffs, that is a point in my favor. Not against it. Contenders don’t trade their core players. Ever.
Javia,
If you’re talking to me – I only used them mockingly (as my comment indicated at the time) in reply to his now twice literally using team win% to try and show if removing Clevinger helped or hurt the team
If you’re talking to him though …yeah, he literally used to team Win% twice to try to point to an individual pitchers value. He also almost exclusively uses win% and ERA (atleast until he doesnt know how to argue Bauers value, then switches to selectively using WAR in only Bauers case, while ignoring it everywhere else)
“Clevinger is BETTER than McKenzie”
And yet McKenzie has pitched better than Clevinger did with the Indians in 2020. How strange.
…and how funny youre struggling to prove Clevinger is even as good as the Indians 5th stater; a rookie having recently made his debut after missing a season
“Like I said. Civale could have replaced someone else.”
Bauer was traded July 31st 2019. Chivale was brought up August 4th to take his spot. I dont care what you think, he replaced Bauer
(But who would you rather count? Bieber was already in rotation. McKenzie only replaced Clevinger recently, so can’t be him. Carrasco holds the same spot. So you can chose, would you rather say it was Chivale or Plesac that replaced Bauer? It was Chivale, but I’ll give you Plesac if you want)
“He has produced more WAR than everyone the Indians got for him combined since the trade.”
The guy who replaced him has the same WAR as him alone. The Indians have years to get more value out of Reyes, Moss and Nova, but already they have GOTTEN BETTER (which was the actual question) after trading Bauer since the guy who replaced him has been equal.
“And as far as the Indians removing 4 AS pitchers over the past 12 months. If they get bounced in the first or second round of the playoffs, that is a point in my favor”
They got bounced in the first round of the playoffs in 2018 with Kluber, Bauer and Clevinger in the rotation. Getting bounced early proves nothing at all either way
“Contenders don’t trade their core players. Ever.”
Indians traded Kenny Loften before the 1997 season. They went to the 1997 World Series …so, much like everything else you try, so much for that
“And yet McKenzie has pitched better than Clevinger did with the Indians in 2020. How strange.”
So now a 3.45 ERA is better than a 3.18 ERA? How strange indeed.
“Bauer was traded July 31st 2019. Chivale was brought up August 4th to take his spot. I dont care what you think, he replaced Bauer”
Yes and he could have replaced someone else. Bauer was not the Indians worst starter at that time and he wouldn’t be their worst starter now.
“The guy who replaced him has the same WAR as him alone. The Indians have years to get more value out of Reyes, Moss and Nova, but already they have GOTTEN BETTER (which was the actual question) after trading Bauer since the guy who replaced him has been equal.”
And Bauer has been better than all their starters this year except Bieber and including Civale. So no, trading Bauer didn’t make them better. If they wanted to trade someone to clear room for Civale, they had other starters that weren’t as good as Bauer.
“They got bounced in the first round of the playoffs in 2018 with Kluber, Bauer and Clevinger in the rotation. Getting bounced early proves nothing at all either way”
And will get bounced early again this year without Kluber, Bauer and Clevinger. Just you wait and see.
“Indians traded Kenny Loften before the 1997 season. They went to the 1997 World Series …so, much like everything else you try, so much for that”
So you had to go back 23 years to find one example. Are those the odds you are trying to sell me on? LOL
“So now a 3.45 ERA is better than a 3.18 ERA? How strange indeed”
Is 0.0 better than 0.5? – thats the actual question for people who live in a year post 1990ish
“Yes and he could have replaced someone else.”
So, who then?
Bieber still in rotation
Carrasco still in rotation
McKenzie replaced Clevinger
So you have Plesac or the guy who literally replaced Bauer, Chivale. Those are the only two options here
“So no, trading Bauer didn’t make them better”
Since the trade they have gotten more WAR out of Bauers literal replacement and the additions then they would have if they never made the trade. That is undeniable “getting better since the trade” (as was the question)
“And will get bounced early again this year without Kluber, Bauer and Clevinger. Just you wait and see.”
So if they win 0 games they are just as good as they were with Kluber, Bauer and Clevinger – and if they win even 1 single game they are better without the 3. Fine, I’ll even give you that
“So you had to go back 23 years to find one example.”
It just popped into my head. I already told you I’m not looking up your silly question since I already showed you a team that went to extras of game 7 in the WS after losing 2 top-20 starters right around that years trade deadline (the question was show me a team who traded 1 AS and went deep into the playoffs – I showed a team that lost 2, with zero return and no replacements available, yet still went as deep as they possibly could)
“So, who then?”
Not Bauer. He has a lower ERA and a higher WAR since the trade than more than one of the guys you mentioned.
“Since the trade they have gotten more WAR out of Bauers literal replacement and the additions then they would have if they never made the trade.”
And less WAR than they would have gotten if Civale had replaced someone else.
“So if they win 0 games they are just as good as they were with Kluber, Bauer and Clevinger – and if they win even 1 single game they are better without the 3. Fine, I’ll even give you that”
When they get bounced in the early playoffs it will prove my point.
“It just popped into my head. I already told you I’m not looking up your silly question since I already showed you a team that went to extras of game 7 in the WS after losing 2 top-20 starters right around that years trade deadline”
Actually the real reason you’re not looking up “my silly question” is because it destroys your argument. We saw how trading Cespedes worked out for Oakland. How trading Betts worked out for Boston. Trading those guys sunk their teams and trading Bauer and Clevinger did/will do the same for Cleveland. They missed the playoffs last year despite being expected to run away with their division going into 2019 and will only make the playoffs this year because of the expanded playoff field. And if they indeed do trade Lindor this offseason as they have been rumored to do then they might as well trade Bieber, Civale, Plesac and McKenzie too because they are DONE.
“And less WAR than they would have gotten if Civale had replaced someone else.”
You seem to be really struggling here with simple math. Only 5 guys. 5 starters. Can’t have more than 5
2019 – Bieber, Carrasco, Clevinger, Kluber and Bauer
2020 – Bieber, Carrasco, Clevinger, Plesac (replaced Kluber) and Chivale (replaced Bauer)
The question has always been “have they gotten better since trading Bauer” and the answer will forver more be a resounding yes – during Bauers remaining control time (he’s a FA in days) they’ve already gotten as much WAR out of his replacement alone even before adding the years of production and control over the trade return pieces. And you can only have either Plesac or the correct answer, Chivale, as the possible replacement for Bauer, neither of which wins your argument
“When they get bounced in the early playoffs it will prove my point”
Again. They won 0 playpff games with Kluber, Bauer and Clevinger in 2018. So child level simple question for you; is winning even 1 game an improvement over 0? That is, is 1 better than 0? Can you answer that, is 1 better than 0?
“Actually the real reason you’re not looking up “my silly question” is because it destroys your argument. We saw how trading Cespedes worked out for Oakland. How trading Betts worked out for Boston. Trading those guys sunk their teams and trading Bauer and Clevinger did/will do the same for Cleveland.”
.562 w% & 0 playoff wins in 2018 with Kluber, Bauer and Clevinger
.574 w% and 0 playoff wins in 2019 with Kluber, Bauer and Clevinger (but 2 of them hurt/traded for half season)
.579 w% and unknown playoff wins in 2020 after trading Kluber, Bauer and Clevinger
Ironically, the more of the guys they remove, the better their win% keeps getting
So the point you think you are trying to make, for who knows what reason, is already laughable, they’ve already proven you wrong. And now winning even 1 playoff game will merely add to that embarrassment for you.
And its not just Wins they are improving as they remove the guys;
3.77 ERA, 3.78 FIP – 2018 pitching staff
3.19 ERA, 3.49 FIP – 2020 pitching staff
The pitching has gotten dramatically better since removing Kluber, Bauer and Clevinger
…why you can’t admit all those such simple facts is the only question here. You’re the only one who can’t grasp this simple reality
I’m a little impressed at how you can speak so much and say so little.
Bauer and Clevinger were and would still be among their five best starters. If they really wanted to trade starters (which is already a bad idea to begin with given the situation they are in), Civale or McKenzie is who they should have traded. Their club control doesn’t matter because the Indians’ window is now and they will be rebuilding for most of those guys’ club control. If they had done that, their ERA would be lower and their WAR would be higher than it is in the OTL. But your mind is already made up so I guess I’m just wasting my time.
Yet again you fail to address the past failures of teams who traded away core players while still trying to contend like Cespedes and Betts. Because doing so would invalidate your assertion that the Indians can win a championship without Bauer and Clevinger, I won’t hold my breath waiting.
Lastly, his surname is “Civale.” Not “Chivale.”
Mike…we’re speaking past each other at this point. You mockingly say that I feel my opinion counts for more than stats. Then, when darkside posts stats refuting your argument, you simply say Clevinger is BETTER (an opinion).
This back and forth is simultaneously fascinating and frustrating. But whatever, it doesn’t matter. I can’t change your opinion, so it’s all good. One thing (I think) we can agree on is this. It truly doesn’t matter what you or I or anyone else thinks. What happens will happen.
I stand by my previous statement, though. If the Tribe is bounced early, it’ll be because of a lack of offensive production and not because of the pitching. Without getting distracted with anything else, do you at least agree with that statement?
@Renotribefan Clevinger has a better ERA than all but 3 of the Indians’ starters and one of the guys who is better than him (Plesac) comes with a small sample size.
The postseason will expose the Indians rotation “depth” for what it really is. While the idea of trading a core player in the middle of a playoff push and going all the way without them sounds nice in theory, in reality, it basically never happens. You can ask the Athletics (Cespedes) and Rangers (Darvish) about that one.
Oh and the Indians absolutely can/could have let Lindor and Clevinger walk for nothing. If they do win a championship with them, then that is certainly more than “nothing.” No, that isn’t guaranteed, but nor are the prospects they get by trading them guaranteed to pan out. Nor is the draft pick they get by QO’ing them if they don’t trade them and they walk guaranteed to bust.
“I’m a little impressed at how you can speak so much and say so little.”
You’ve literally said nothing (and especially nothing factual) this entire time, while I’ve provided actual stats – which of course take up a lot of space
Then, let’s just get to baby-level questions to see if you are even able to admit any reality into your world…
1. Which would be better
A) 0 playoff wins
B) 1 playoff win
2. Which is better?
A) a .562 win%
B) a .579 win%
3. Which is better;
A) 3.77 ERA, 3.78 FIP – 2018 pitching staff with Kluber, Bauer and Clevinger
B) 3.19 ERA, 3.49 FIP – 2020 pitching staff after trading Kluber, Bauer and Clevinger
So are you even able to answer such mind-numbingly simple questions? Do you have it in your capabilities to answer such simple A or B things? …or are you just incapable because having to answer them disproves everything you’ve tried to say here?
Renotribefan
“This back and forth is simultaneously fascinating and frustrating”
Yeah, isn’t it
But remember, this is all because he is insisting a team can not possibly, under any circumstances, trade a “core player” and get “better” – doing so means the teams “tank” and are “destroyed” and yadayada
2018 Cleveland Indians rotation with Kluber, Bauer, Clevinger:
3.39 ERA, 1.144 WHIP, 9.7 K/9
2020 Cleveland Indians rotation having traded Kluber, Bauer and Clevinger:
2.95 ERA, 1.073 WHIP, 10.4 K/9
He absolutely insists there is no possible way that can happen. It did, but he keeps saying it can’t anyway. It’s …amazing to watch. he might as well be screaming the earth is flat, but he still doesn’t get it (or at least, can’t bring himself to have to admit it. Some people, and especially children, will go to great lengths to refuse admitting they were wrong)
@darkstar61 I’ll stick to the stats, thank you. Like the fact that the Indians only have three starters with lower ERA’s than Clevinger this season and one (Plesac) has only done it in a small sample size. And the fact that the Indians made themselves demonstrably worse by trading Bauer as evidence by his WAR > Reyes, Allen and Puig’s since the trade. But I realize that once you have declared yourself right, all bets are off. So just wait until the playoffs when the Indians get stomped out.
The Indians’ rotation would be even better today (and their win pct even higher) if they hadn’t traded Bauer and Clevinger. Although moving Kluber when they did ended up being prudent.
And yes. Trading a core player absolutely means the team is tanking. People said the Red Sox could contend this year after they traded Mookie Betts, for instance. How’s that one working out for them? And how did trading Yoenis Cespedes in the middle of a playoff race work out for the Athletics? The Rangers and Yu Darvish? Game over.
“I’ll stick to the stats, thank you”
It is quite funny how one sentence is saying ERA is the indication of talent, then in the very next you say WAR is what proves talent. Of course we know exactly why …Clevinger had a 0.0 WAR (iow, absolutely worthless) for the 2020 Indians.
Anyway, just answer the questions;
1. Which would be better
A) 0 playoff wins
B) 1 playoff win
2. Which is better?
A) a .562 win%
B) a .579 win%
3. Which is better;
A) 3.77 ERA, 3.78 FIP
B) 3.19 ERA, 3.49 FIP
“And yes. Trading a core player absolutely means the team is tanking”
.562 Win% – 2018 Indians
“Core” players traded from team since: Kluber, Bauer, Clevinger, Gomes
“Core” players allowed to walk: Miller, Allen, Brantley, Kipnis, Chisenhall, Salazar
That is a total of 10 (TEN!) “core” players removed (4 traded, 6 allowed to leave)
And those “demonstrably worse” end results?
.579 Win% – 2020 Indians without those 10 “core” guys
Your theory is straight pitiful – this very team shows how silly and mindless and wrong it actually is.
They removed TEN(!!!) “core” players and then “tanked” into a higher win percentage? That’s your whole theory, is it?
Ok, Mike, so answer me this. If the Tribe traded Clevinger for Trout, are they tanking? Clevinger is a core piece, right? And trading him must mean we’re tanking because that makes us worse, right? Extreme example? Of course. But it refutes your completely black and white stance on this.
However, I’m still looking for something that I can get you to agree with me on. Can you at least agree that, given the assumption that things transpired exactly the same as they have with the exception of the fact that the Tribe didn’t trade Clevinger (in other words, we still had Clev and he still got hurt)…can you at least agree that the Tribe is a better team RIGHT NOW for at least the Wild Card round given these facts? If you can’t agree on that, I don’t know what to say.
Renotribefan,
He insists removing even 1 “core’ player means you’re “tanking”
The 2018 Indians have had 10 (TEN!) “core” players removed …and increased their win percentage each year since
So do you really, honestly think he’ll ever admit anything at all?
Haha…I’m going to keep trying. I’m not expecting it, but I’m hopeful he can at least admit that the Tribe with an injured Clevinger is not as good as the Tribe after they traded him.
Mike, You keep stating Plesac’s small sample size. Why don’t you mention Clevinger’s smaller sample size as well. Plesac has pitched 55.1 innings in 2020 while Clevinger has only pitched 41.2 innings. I trust the Cleveland front office’s thoughts and opinions much, much more than your opinions.
@Renotribefan your Mike Trout example is pennywise and poundfoolish. LAA would never agree to that.
And the Indians didn’t know that Clevinger would get injured when they traded him. If they did, then Preller might have a case to get the trade nixed. So the fact that Clev got injured doesn’t retroactively redeem them for trading him.
Anyway, you both better not go into hiding two weeks from now when the Indians get knocked out of the postseason without Clevinger. They are currently on track to face the A’s in the first round who are also a cursed team when it comes to the postseason so it won’t surprise me if Cleveland is one of the top 4 AL teams but that’ll be all.
@darkstar61 I’ll answer your silly questions when you answer my questions about how trading Cespedes, Darvish and Betts while still trying to contend worked out for Oakland, Texas and Boston.
“Anyway, you both better not go into hiding two weeks from now when the Indians get knocked out of the postseason”
Right, because yet again,
Traded/removed from 2018 team: Kluber, Bauer, Clevinger, Salazar, Miller, Allen, Gomes, Brantley, Kipnis, Chisenhall, Donaldson, Alvarez, Cabrera, Encarnacion (and many more)
2018 team – .562 w% and 0 playoff wins
2019 team – .574 w% and 0 playoff games
2020 team – .578 w% and at least 0 playoff wins
…but if they don’t win the WS, that will be your proof they “tanked” and are “demonstrably worse”
Lol. It’s honestly so mindless a person can only laugh (and feel pity for you)
“I’ll answer your silly questions when you answer my questions about how trading Cespedes, Darvish and Betts while still trying to contend worked out for Oakland, Texas and Boston.”
2014 Lester had 11 starts of a 2.35 ERA (3.13 FIP) for a 1.8 WAR for Oakland, 3rd most of any pitcher the team used all year (and Lester was only there 2 months) …Oakland got exactly what they wanted and needed. (While Cespedes, being a cancer, went on to be on 4 teams in that 13 month span)
2017 Texas was a sub-500, 3rd place team when they decided to rebuild and trade pending Free Agent Darvish. 2 years later they had the exact same record they did the year they traded him
2020 Boston (who only made their deal months ago) wasn’t trying to compete, they were trying to desperately shed salary to get under Luxury Tax. The main piece they got though, Verdugo, has produced just 1 fewer WAR over the remainder of the Betts contract – and Boston has Verdugo for years to come. Massive win
(So weird you picked not 1 team that had a similar situation or need to Cleveland though)
Okay, so now your turn;
1. Which would be better
A) 0 playoff wins
B) 1 playoff win
2. Which is better?
A) a .562 win% – 2018 Indians
B) a .579 win% – 2020 Indians
3. Which is better;
A) 3.77 ERA, 3.78 FIP – 2018 pitching staff
B) 3.19 ERA, 3.49 FIP – 2020 pitching staff
4. Which is better;
A) 3.39 ERA, 1.144 WHIP, 9.7 K/9 – 2018 rotation
B) 2.95 ERA, 1.073 WHIP, 10.4 K/9 – 2020 rotation
I’m waiting
Lol a “Cespedes is a cancer”er too. Just when I thought you couldn’t be any more delusional. The Athletics were the darlings of MLB for the first 2/3 of 2014. It’s no accident that their season went down the drain after they traded him. And he was traded the other 2 times because Boston had a crowded outfield and because Detroit chose to sell at the 2015 trade deadline and Cespedes, being a rental, was an obvious trade candidate.
Then on Darvish and Betts, several people said at the time that they could still contend even without those guys. Yet they didn’t. Just like the A’s couldn’t do it without Cespedes and just like the Indians won’t be able to do it without Bauer and Clevinger. Contending teams add to their rosters. They don’t subtract. End of story.
Oh and as for your asinine questions.
1. One playoff win, which they’d win even more with Bauer and Clevinger on the team than what they currently have.
2. Given the two, a .579 win pct. But their win pct would be even higher right now with Bauer and Clevinger on the team.
3. Obviously B, but it would be even lower with Bauer and Clevinger on the team.
4. Obviously B, but it would be even better with Bauer and Clevinger.
Basically what you are doing is the same argument some loser Pirates fan tried to make 2 years ago saying that trading Gerrit Cole and Andrew McCutchen was addition by subtraction and pointing to their 2018 record being better than 2017 as proof of that, even though that improvement was clearly due to the rest of the team improving rather than losing Cole and Cutch.
Bauer is having a better season than any Indians starter except Bieber. And then Clevinger is having a better season than any Indians starter except Bieber, Plesac (sample size) and Carrasco. If they must trade starters, the weak links are McKenzie and Civale. Their club control doesn’t matter because the Indians’ window is about to close. Once Lindor is gone it’s rebuilding time.
Mike…your non-answer to my Clevinger/Trout question answered it anyway. It doesn’t matter if LAA would do it. Your sidestepping of the question means you agree that trading Clevinger for Trout wouldn’t be considered tanking. I appreciate you conceding that fact despite the fact that you couldn’t bring yourself to say it outright. And if you’re going to claim I’m wrong, then state explicitly that trading Clevinger for Trout would be tanking.
Also, I’ve said repeatedly in this thread that if we get bounced early, it’ll be for a lack of offense instead of a lack of pitching. If we lose in the wild card round and we score more than 5 runs in each loss, then I’ll concede that our pitching faltered. Will you be able to do the same if we either win or lose two games where the opponent scores less than 4 per game? Something tells me that might not happen.
By the way, we are currently losing 2-1 to the Pirates after 7. We only have 1 hit…a bunt single. Their starter walked 8 batters in 5 innings, yet we only managed one run.
Please explain how Mike Clevinger and Trevor Bauer make our offense better.
And please…please don’t say that Clevinger or Bauer would be shutting them out. Both have an ERA over 1.00, and the stats would say that they would’ve given up at least one run, if not more.
Lol, yeah, okay, whatever you say. But anyway, Oakland were buyers, not sellers, at that deadline. They targeted 2 rentals, 1 a true dominant Ace, and the other a PH/clubhouse guy. They got exactly what they wanted, with Lester being one of the best pitchers in the game the last 2 months.
Then you make up more crazy stuff. The day they traded Darvish, the Rangers were 50-55 (.476) 19 games behind Houston, in 4th place in their division (I made mistake earlier, they were behind both the Angels and Mariners) and 11th in AL …so you’re nuts trying to claim the Rangers were in anything at all (Texas dod ironically play better after the trade though, going 28-29, or .491, without Darvish)
And Redsox wanted solely to shred money and add a young, cheap, controllable huge upside bat for the 1 year worth of Betts contract. Had they not made the trade, they would be 1 win better, accordingto WAR. Thats it, 1 Win.
and…
“Oh and as for your asinine questions.
1. One playoff win…
2. Given the two, a .579 win pct…
3. Obviously B…
4. Obviously B…”
So you just picked the 2020 team as being better at winning games, having a better pitching staff and having a better rotation than the 2018 team that was led by an additional 10 “core” players …so much for trading “core” players meaning “tanking” and a team being “demonstrably worse” that you screamed obsessively for the last 24+ hours
…so why did you obsessively lie for the last 24+ hours?
Lastly, you now have changed your argument and keep trying to say the team would have been better with Clevinger (and Bauer, again showing your pitiful lack of simple math skills. 5. Only 5!)
2.95 ERA, 1.073 WHIP, 10.4 K/9 – 2020 Rotation
3.18 ERA, 1.369 WHIP, 8.6 K/9 – Clevinger in Cle
Clevinger literally raised the rotations ERA, raised their WHIP, and lowered the K/9. (And dramatically hurt their FIP and even hurt WAR, since he had a 5.65 FIP and 0.0 WAR) He made the team stats worse, not better, and we already know he was worthless (again, 0.0 WAR)
So you can keep saying they would be better with him, but all stats show that he hurt them when he picthed for them (and earlier you even said the team was worse when they traded him. But actually, they were 11-9, .550 the day the team all came together and decided they wanted him gone, and have gone 22-15, .595 since then. Demoting him with the intention to trade him made the team much better)
Renotribefan,
Wow, they won that, amazingly. Just imagine how good the team would be if not for this alone though;
“Jensen Lewis @JLEWFifty . 50m
It’s been a year to forget for Francisco Lindor w/ runners in scoring position. Entering tonight, he was hitting .172 (10-for-58)
1 HR
5 2B
14 RBI”
Looks like the team has scored 0 runs 4 times, 1 run 8 times and 2 runs 12 times. It is amazing they have won so many games when having that pitiful of an offense (and shows just how dominant the pitching has been, despite that loon obsessively insisting it’s “tanking” and “demonstrably worse” and all.)
You’re watching what is possibly the best pitching team the game has ever seen
@darkstar61 Good lord. You honestly expect anyone to read all that?
You say Cleveland only has space for 5 starters? Cool. Civale and McKenzie are the ones they should have traded. Not Bauer and Clevinger. You say that Clevinger was raising the team’s overall ERA? By that logic, so is every starter not named Bieber, Plesac and Carrasco. And they are raising the ERA more than Clevinger was.
Lying is your game bud. Clevinger was helping the Indians way more than McKenzie or Civale are now. All those two have on Clevinger is more club control. That’s it. And club control doesn’t matter for the Indians who are squarely in win now mode.
The A’s could have traded prospects for Lester and Gomes. No contender gets away with trading the heart and soul of their offense in the middle of a playoff push. It showed when they stumbled down the stretch, lost their 1st place in the division to Anaheim and then couldn’t beat Big Shame James in the Wild Card game.
I don’t have to lie about the Rangers and Red Sox. Go back to those articles and read the comments. A whole bunch of people said the Rangers could still make the playoffs without Darvish and the Red Sox without Betts.
@Renotribefan they could have traded prospects for bats. That’s how. Prospects have no value to the Indians.
@darkstar61 oh and you know what else happened after Cleveland let all of those core players go? They missed the playoffs entirely last year despite everyone expecting them to sleepwalk to the AL Central title going into the season and will only make it this year because of the expanded playoff field.
“You say Cleveland only has space for 5 starters? Cool. Civale and McKenzie are the ones they should have traded”
Oh, so they should have traded the two non-top prospects, with no ML experience, (and one of them even hurt) that have actually performed as well/better than the two guys they replaced and have years of control? :/ your lack of understanding of absolutely anything is truly astonishing
“You say that Clevinger was raising the team’s overall ERA”
The problem here is you have zero understanding of stats. FIP is what a pitchers ERA should be, and what you should expect ERA to look like in the future. Clevinger’s was 5.66. He should have had a 5.66 ERA, and should have been expected to have a 5.50+ ERA moving forward had he stayed in Cleveland. He was pitching absoluetly horrendously (which is why he was dead last in almost every single talent indicating stat there is, and had Starters-worst 0.0 WAR)
“Lying is your game bud. Clevinger was helping the Indians way more than McKenzie or Civale are now.”
0.0 WAR – Clevinger
0.5 WAR – McKenzie
1.4 WAR – Chivale
Again, your lack of understanding of absolutely anything at all is mindboggling
“Go back to those articles and read the comments”
Ohhhhhh, well I didn’t realize your so-called facts and evidence are the supposed comments of a few random tweens on an internet comment section. Well if those tweets said the 50-55, 11th in the AL Rangers were going to go to the playoffs… (you really are a pitiful one)
“oh and you know what else happened after Cleveland let all of those core players go? They missed the playoffs entirely last year despite everyone expecting them to sleepwalk to the AL Central ”
Yet their W% was still higher than it was in 2018 when they had all the “core” guys.
And that is with most of their rotation on the DL for extended period of times (Kluber was toast, Carrasco had leukemia, Clevinger was his normal glass self, etc) …so yeah, not hard to figure out what went wrong
And now this season, a full 10 “core players” removed from the 2018 club later, they have their best record yet, best pitching staff by far, best rotation by far, even one of the most dominating staffs ever seen, and are preparing for the playoffs
Mike, you don’t seem to understand the small market Indians. Cleveland’s front office has no intention of rebuilding. You say prospects have no value to the Indians. That comment is so wrong. Teams like Cleveland need their prospects to help the major league team. Pitching has been the strength of the Indians for several years. The Indians have used their surplus pitching to help the major league team and their farm system which Fangraphs just rated the 6th best. They trade the pitchers with the least amount of control and keep the controllable ones. How good does their pitching look when they control Carrasco 3 more years, Bieber 4 more years, Plesac & Civale 5 more years, and McKenzie for 6 years. That is a strong base to build from and remain in contention for several more years. Every trade that the Indians made has tried to help the major league club, as well as, the future. The Kluber trade’s main piece was Emmanuel Clase, who was planned to be a major part of their bullpen, but he was suspended. They will have him for the next six years in the back end of their bullpen. The Bauer trade added the rental Puig, five years of Framil Reyes, and prospects. Reyes has been one of the Indians that has hit and helped their offense. The Clevinger trade brought Naylor for the outfield and Quantrill for the bullpen, both very controllable plus three prospects. They hoped for more offense from Naylor, but he is only 23. Every trade attempted to help fill needs for the major league club, and build the farm system for future help. You may not agree on how they operate, but they have been one of the winningest teams in baseball over the last 5-6 years. That is pretty damn good for a team with a small market budget. I have followed the Indians since I was 7 years old back in 1965. I watched 30 years of bad baseball until the 1995 Indians. I never want to see years of bad baseball again,
As far as the playoffs go, get in and anything can happen. In 2016, Cleveland was down 3 starters to injury, yet made it to the seventh game of the World Series. In 2017, they were one of the favorites, yet lost early. In 2020, with their pitching, Cleveland will be a threat, if they get enough hitting which others have mentioned over and over again.
@darkstar61…
“Oh, so they should have traded the two non-top prospects, with no ML experience, (and one of them even hurt) that have actually performed as well/better than the two guys they replaced and have years of control?”
No, they shouldn’t have done that. Except that Civale and McKenzie have NOT performed as well as the guys they replaced. The pitcher’s job is to not allow runs to score and Clevinger and Bauer are better at that.
“FIP is what a pitchers ERA should be, and what you should expect ERA to look like in the future.”
That’s not true. Tons of pitchers excel based on an ability to outperform metrics like FIP and xFIP (pitchers like Mike Clevinger) and then some pitchers tend to underperform those stats (like Chris Archer). FIP relies on a number of assumptions that aren’t always true. In fact, they aren’t true more often than not.
“Again, your lack of understanding of absolutely anything at all is mindboggling”
Well why didn’t you tell me you wanted an exchange on ad hominems? I can do that too.
“Ohhhhhh, well I didn’t realize your so-called facts and evidence are the supposed comments of a few random tweens on an internet comment section.
Not just that. They also refused to trade pending FA Andrew Cashner and traded for another pending FA in Miguel Gonzalez. Not something a team that is actively tanking does. Even if Ti’Quan Forbes and whoever they could have gotten for Cashner weren’t all that valuable.
“And now this season, a full 10 “core players” removed from the 2018 club later, they have their best record yet, best pitching staff by far, best rotation by far, even one of the most dominating staffs ever seen, and are preparing for the playoffs”
More like preparing to get bounced in the playoffs.
@hockeyjohn…
“Cleveland’s front office has no intention of rebuilding.”
Sure they do. You keep hearing about them trading Lindor. Is trading a guy that good NOT a rebuilding move?
“Teams like Cleveland need their prospects to help the major league team.”
No they don’t. They are trying to win now so unless those prospects can help them win now their only value is as trade chips.
“They trade the pitchers with the least amount of control and keep the controllable ones.”
Club control is for rebuilding teams. Which you say the Indians aren’t part of that consortium. Weird…
“Every trade attempted to help fill needs for the major league club, and build the farm system for future help.”
And to do that, they traded away guys who were way more valuable NOW than whoever they got back. Again, weird move to make for a team that is “not” rebuilding.
“You may not agree on how they operate, but they have been one of the winningest teams in baseball over the last 5-6 years.”
Right. We’ll see how long that lasts.
“I watched 30 years of bad baseball until the 1995 Indians. I never want to see years of bad baseball again.”
You better pray they pay Frankie Lindor what he wants then.
Mike, I will just say again, you do not understand how a small market, low budget team does business. Since 2013, the Indians are the winningest club in the American League, second to the Dodgers in MLB. I think that the Indians know how to operate in a small market. I think that they know more than you about how to operate the Indians. Imagine what Chris Antonetti could do with the budget of the Dodgers or Yankees.
“No, they shouldn’t have done that. Except that Civale and McKenzie have NOT performed as well as the guys they replaced”
Since Bauer trade:
2.5 WAR – Civale since July 31st, 2019
2.2 WAR – Bauer since July 31st, 2019
And 5.66 FIP, 0.0 WAR guy Clevinger was replaced with 4.14 FIP, 0.5 WAR guy McKenzie. Sooo…
“That’s not true”
Your lack of understanding of stats doesn’t make them untrue – it just means you don’t know what you’re talking about
5.66 FIP. 5.66 FIP. 5.66 FIP …Go ahead, show me another picther that “outperformed” FIP by 2.50 points over any real amount of time, I’ll wait.
“outperform metrics like FIP and xFIP (pitchers like Mike Clevinger)”
3.19 ERA, 3.53 FIP – are you arguing a 0.30 difference is exactly like a 2.50 difference?
“some pitchers tend to underperform those stats (like Chris Archer)”
3.86 ERA, 3.65 FIP – are you arguing 0.20 is just like a 2.50 difference?
“Not just that. They also refused to trade pending FA Andrew Cashner and traded for another pending FA in Miguel Gonzalez.”
They tried hard to trade Cashner, no one offered anything for him with his 5.30 FIP, worst of all qualified pitchers K-BB%, career worst K% and his having just missed time to arm injury. And Gonzalez was picked up literally because he cost nothing and they needed innings filled. They were 5 games under 500, 4th in their division, 11th in the AL and sold off the only logical, viable, in demand piece they had. (But I know, I know, the tweens on a message board said…)
“More like preparing to get bounced in the playoffs”
No, they’re literally preparing to collect their recognition as the best Indians pitching rotation possibly ever;
Recent Cleveland starting rotations;
3.94 ERA, 1.157 WHIP, 8.9 K/9 – 2015
4.08 ERA, 1.237 WHIP, 8.5 K/9 – 2016
3.52 ERA, 1.172 WHIP, 10.1 K/9 – 2017
3.39 ERA, 1.144 WHIP, 9.7 K/9 – 2018
3.81 ERA, 1.193 WHIP, 9.5 K/9 – 2019
2.99 ERA, 1.069 WHIP, 10.3 K/9 – 2020
So what we’ve learned today is more teams should be “tanking” and becoming “demonstrably worse” – what you insistently call “demonstrably worse” is BY FAR the best they’ve ever done
…now they might lose in the playoffs as the team has one of the worst hitting marks you’ll find, largely because of by far career worst seasons by “core” players Lindor, Santana and Perez.
But remember too, all they really need is 0 playoff wins and they’ll still be better than the 2018 club that had 10 more “core” guys on it (and anything more than 0 Wins starts quickly putting them into “much better” territory)
More needlessly long comments that are 10% substance and 90% fluff and hot air from you I see…
In 2020:
Bauer: 1.73 ERA (and that’s in GABP)
Clevinger: 3.02 ERA
McKenzie: 3.45 ERA
Civale: 3.99 ERA
It’s clear who has been better this year at not allowing runs, a pitcher’s only job. If they really had to trade starters (which they didn’t) then McKenzie and Civale were the guys they should have traded. Literally the only thing they had over Bauer and Clevinger was club control.
“3.19 ERA, 3.53 FIP – are you arguing a 0.30 difference is exactly like a 2.50 difference? 3.86 ERA, 3.65 FIP – are you arguing 0.20 is just like a 2.50 difference?”
What are you even trying to get at now?
“They tried hard to trade Cashner, no one offered anything for him with his 5.30 FIP, worst of all qualified pitchers K-BB%, career worst K% and his having just missed time to arm injury.”
There were offers. Even if they weren’t that great they would easily beat the nothing Texas got for him in the end.
“And Gonzalez was picked up literally because he cost nothing and they needed innings filled.”
How did they “need’ innings filled? What would have happened if they didn’t trade for Gonzalez to fill those innings? They’d miss the playoffs every year from 2017 to 2020? Oh wait… And as far as him costing nothing, TiQuan Forbes was a higher rated prospect when he was traded than Corey Kluber was when my team traded him to yours. We all know how that worked out…
“No, they’re literally preparing to collect their recognition as the best Indians pitching rotation possibly ever”
And would be even better if they switch out McKenzie and Civale for Bauer and Clevinger.
“So what we’ve learned today is more teams should be “tanking” and becoming “demonstrably worse” – what you insistently call “demonstrably worse” is BY FAR the best they’ve ever done”
Actually the best they’ve ever done was in 1954.
“But remember too, all they really need is 0 playoff wins and they’ll still be better than the 2018 club that had 10 more “core” guys on it”
That… makes no sense. If they get swept in the first round it means they were tied with the 2018 club. Not better. But either way, since you had to go back to 1997 to find one team that made a deep playoff run immediately after trading away an established star, you can’t be liking their odds.
2.5 bWAR – Civale since July 31st, 2019
2.2 bWAR – Bauer since July 31st, 2019
5.66 FIP, 0.0 WAR – Clevinger in Cle
4.14 FIP, 0.5 WAR – McKenzie as his replacement
…seems to really bother you when actual talent indicating stats are used instead of the 1920s stuff you repeat endlessly
“McKenzie and Civale were the guys they should have traded”
Now I have to repeat: so they should have traded the two non-top prospects, with no ML experience, (and one of them even hurt) that have actually performed as well/better than the two guys they replaced and have years of control?
…you just said no to that, that they shouldn’t have done that. But it’s the only other option. So you keep giving a reality breaking complete contradiction, going back and forth between your own two “no’ positions.
“How did they “need’ innings filled?”
You seem to really, really, really struggle with the whole 5 starter thing. How is adding to 5 that hard for you?
You also keep talking like they added him at the July 31st date deadline …they didn’t. They added him Aug 31st, when the White Sox put him on waivers.
But hey, maybe they did add him because they had a very slight shot, who knows. Only reason they had a slight shot though would be how good they played once they traded Darvish (went on a 16-11, .592 run, after being just a pitiful a .476 club with Darvish)
“And as far as him costing nothing, TiQuan Forbes was a higher rated prospect when he was traded than Corey Kluber was ”
Best I can find is TiQuan Forbes ranked as the 50th best prospect in the Rangers system in 2017, per prospects1600. I can not find him ever ranking in the White Sox ranks other than by fan sites (who put him at #99 in Dec 2017)
Fangraphs had Emmanuel Clase at 21st in 2019 (mostly because he’s a RP, which always hurts rankings) …and Clase also had compiled 0.7 WAR in the ML in just 21 relief appearances after that (and the Indians control that dominant RP performance guy for 6 more years)
“That… makes no sense. If they get swept in the first round it means they were tied with the 2018 club. Not better”
Would be tied in playoff wins, but with a better regular season record …that means better (and possibly much better if they can win even 1 playoff game) – 10 fewer “core” guys and still a better season; possibly much better
“But either way, since you had to go back to 1997 to find one team that made a deep playoff run immediately after trading away an established star, you can’t be liking their odds.”
You were told ages ago the Nats removed former MVP and 6 time AS, Harper, and immediately won the WS. That was less than 12 months ago …you just never listen to facts, as actual facts always completely ruin literally everything you say
Something else to consider…with the exception of the Twins and White Sox, every AL team they face will be seeing these guys for the first time this year in the playoffs. That advantage always goes to the pitcher.
The tribe’s offense has been so bad this year that it won’t make as much of a difference, but their pitching is so good that they could potentially be even more difficult for opponents. Lots of low scoring games are coming, I think.
Darkstar…yeah, you’re right. Lindor started off extremely slow, then turned it on as of late. But his production when it matters has not been good this year. He’s always been like that to an extent, although the numbers won’t necessarily show that.
On top of that Jose Ramirez has been extremely streaky. We tend to win when he hits and lose when he doesn’t. He’s the lynchpin for this offense.
Santana is below the Mendoza line, but that was ok when he was walking at a ridiculous rate earlier in the year. That’s not happening as much now.
But to your point. How good would we be if we were able to consistently score 3 runs every game? For this season, our win % when we score 3 or more is .818. Compare that to .792 for the Dodgers or .727 for the Rays (both league leaders). Yet, 24 times this year, we’ve scored 0, 1, or 2 runs. The Dodgers and Rays have a COMBINED 21 games scoring fewer than 3. Our winning percentage in those games is .250. Think about that for a minute. If we had a decent offense, we’d be World Series favorites. That underscores just how dominant this pitching staff has been.
And they’ve straight dominated the White Sox (2.57 ERA, 3/g allowed over 91 innings against the 2nd highest scoring AL club, who have scored 5.07/g on average)
…have really struggled to score off Twins though, leading to that poor record against them (scored just 2.6/g, allowed 3.8/g)
Also insane to think that the Indians have given one of the best team pitching performances ever seen, after losing Kluber, Bauer, Clevinger and Salazar …and all while playing in baseballs best region. Might be 6 of the 9 teams they played this season going to the playoffs (if Cardinals & Brewers both make it)
“our win % when we score 3 or more is .818”
That is absolutely nuts
“That underscores just how dominant this pitching staff has been”
As I showed, best starting pitching the Indians have seen possibly ever, in the history of the team. (I looked up a couple highlight years, including some of the 1940s, and didn’t spot a rotation better one)
They really should “tank” and try to be “demonstrably worse” more often, haha
@darkstar61…
“…seems to really bother you when actual talent indicating stats are used instead of the 1920s stuff you repeat endlessly”
The pitcher’s only job is to not allow the opponent to score runs. And it’s not like Clev doesn’t have a track record of being good at that regardless of what other stats you want to throw out there. The game is played on the field, not on your little excel spreadsheet.
“Now I have to repeat: so they should have traded the two non-top prospects, with no ML experience, (and one of them even hurt) that have actually performed as well/better than the two guys they replaced and have years of control?”
No they have not performed as well as the guys they replaced. Like I said, all they have over Clevinger and Bauer is club control.
“You seem to really, really, really struggle with the whole 5 starter thing. How is adding to 5 that hard for you?”
And you seem to struggle with correlation vs. causation. Are you saying the Rangers played better down the stretch because they traded their #1 starter? Or are you willing to concede that it was despite trading their #1 starter. Ditto the Indians with Bauer and Clevinger and the Nats with Harper. Oh and as for the Rangers needing five starters, they could promote someone from the bullpen or the AAA rotation.
“Would be tied in playoff wins, but with a better regular season record …that means better (and possibly much better if they can win even 1 playoff game) – 10 fewer “core” guys and still a better season; possibly much better”
If the Indians can make a deep playoff run this year you might have a case. Until then, all you have is your continued fluff and hot air. If Lindor indeed is traded this coming winter then it’s all over.
“The pitcher’s only job is to not allow the opponent to score run”
And stats show that any random replacement player (0.0 WAR, afterall) would have been expected to have the same results (ERA) as Clevinger did in those 4 specific games …thats where your complete lack of understanding of stats shows itself; you cant grasp that simple concept. Clevinger was garbage, no better than any random scub. Hence, 0.0 WAR
“No they have not performed as well as the guys they replaced.”
2.5 bWAR – Civale since July 31st, 2019
2.2 bWAR – Bauer since July 31st, 2019
5.66 FIP, 0.0 WAR – Clevinger in Cle
4.14 FIP, 0.5 WAR – McKenzie as his replacement
So yet again, for the thousandth time, actual stats that show actual talent levels say otherwise …we know you don’t understand them (AT ALL! sigh) but they are the ones everyone associated with the game pays attention to, and for a reason
“Are you saying the Rangers played better down the stretch because they traded their #1 starter?”
Huh? No, I didnt say that – but you do insist that isn’t even possible, and have injected the Rangers trading Darvish as a team putting a death nail in their coffin, with them clearly “tanking” and being “demonstrably worse” and yadayada afterward. Well…
50-55, 4.76 Win % – before Darvis trade
28-29, 4.91 Win % – oerall after trade
Your own example of a team supposedly destroying itself disproves your theory – they played undeniably better after he was gone (much like the Indians did when the team got together and insisted Clevinger be demoted/traded too)
“If the Indians can make a deep playoff run this year you might have a case.”
Wow, you’re dense
Okay, baby questions again, I guess – which of these two is better,
A) .562 win% and 0 playoff wins
B) .586 win% and 0 playoff wins (for arguments sake)
…there is only one answer, 2020 is undeniably better regardless the playoff outcome (and it was done after removing 10 “core” players, which you insist isn’t possible – which is why this entire conversionhas been so insufferablly insane for everyone; you’re arguing against nothing but undeniable facts, obsessively insisting the undeniable facts somehow are not facts)
“And stats show that any random replacement player (0.0 WAR, afterall) would have been expected to have the same results (ERA) as Clevinger did in those 4 specific games ”
Again. The game is played on the field. Not on your Excel spreadsheet.
“Clevinger was garbage, no better than any random scub. Hence, 0.0 WAR”
If that’s the case why did the Padres give up 6 guys with value for him?
“So yet again, for the thousandth time, actual stats that show actual talent levels say otherwise …we know you don’t understand them (AT ALL! sigh) but they are the ones everyone associated with the game pays attention to, and for a reason”
Bauer and Clev have the lower ERA’s. That means that we we strip away all the BS and get down to the point, they have done their job the best.
“Your own example of a team supposedly destroying itself disproves your theory – they played undeniably better after he was gone (much like the Indians did when the team got together and insisted Clevinger be demoted/traded too)”
Actually it proves it. The Indians missed the playoffs that year and haven’t made it back since. And I like how you deliberately ignore Cespedes and Betts, where the team actually did have worse records after trading them.
“you’re arguing against nothing but undeniable facts, obsessively insisting the undeniable facts somehow are not facts)”
I’ll stick to the facts and you will apparently stick to your jilted fluff and hot air. Based on your “Cespedes is a cancer” comment and your recent comment about the Indians getting together and demanding that Clevinger be demoted or traded, this is clearly a personal problem for you.
“Again. The game is played on the field. Not on your Excel spreadsheet.”
Thanks for quadrupling down by again openly admitting just how little you know about the game
“If that’s the case why did the Padres give up 6 guys with value for him?”
Not “if” – he did have a 0.0. And 0.0 = worthless. It’s random “replacement” player value. (That’s what the R in WAR stands for, since you certainly dont know)
And the Padres bit because of what he has done in the past, and their having 2 more years of control even if there is something seriously wrong with him this season.
“That means that we we strip away all the BS and get down to the point,”
Yes, ignore the actual stats and instead try to figure out only what very, very little you can understand (most of which is things you just make up out of nowhere)
“Actually it proves it. The Indians missed the playoffs that year and haven’t made it back since”
Wth? They are in the playoffs now, so they have been “back since”
And yes, they missed the playoffs in 2019, despite having a better record than they had in 2018 (and only missed it because unexpectedly Kluber, Carrasco, Clevinger and Salazar all spent significant time out with injury) …so wow did you ever make up a whopper of a lie to try to find a point
“I’ll stick to the facts”
You honestly have not given a single one the entire time, I don’t think
And to…
“your recent comment about the Indians getting together and demanding that Clevinger be demoted or traded,”
Do you even follow baseball at all?
You clearly don’t follow the Indians, thats for sure, as you know literally nothing about them. But multiple teammates (led by Ollie and Lindor) demanding he be removed, and even threatening to walk out of the season if Clevinger was allowed to stay with the team, was pretty high profile.
That is something you should know if you follow baseball at all – leaving me to think you clearly can’t (or just have such a limited mental capability that you can’t recall things you hear a month after the fact)
“Thanks for quadrupling down by again openly admitting just how little you know about the game”
Oh please, I forget more about baseball when I sneeze than you will ever know.
“And the Padres bit because of what he has done in the past, and their having 2 more years of control even if there is something seriously wrong with him this season.”
If he was truly worthless the Padres wouldn’t have had to give up anywhere near all that. Do you really think they put up that good of an offer if no one else is interested?
“Yes, ignore the actual stats and instead try to figure out only what very, very little you can understand (most of which is things you just make up out of nowhere)”
Ain’t nothing made up about ERA.
“Wth? They are in the playoffs now, so they have been “back since” ”
Only because of the ridiculous expanded playoff field.
“You honestly have not given a single one the entire time, I don’t think”
So you’re either lying or you have your head so far up your own as that you can only hear yourself talk. Either way, I’ve posted plenty of facts.
And regarding the team demanding that Clevinger be removed, regardless of what happened, what your comment really did is expose your personal issues with the guy. Just like your comment about Yoenis Cespedes (which you have still failed to address despite posting at least 3 dozen rambling, incoherent comments that literally no one is going to take the time to read) did earlier.
“Oh please, I forget more about baseball when I sneeze than you will ever know”
Hahaha, yeah, as if a single soul alive believes that hahaha
“If he was truly worthless…”
Look, you keep screaming as loud as you can that you have zero grasp of stats. We get it, you don’t need to keep saying it. Anything even remotely in the ballpark of WAR, or honestly even things much more simplistic than that, is clearly way too far over your microscopic understanding of the game; we all know. You’ve said it over and over again
“Ain’t nothing made up about ERA”
Yes, it was very important to people in the 1920s
“Only because of the ridiculous expanded playoff field.”
We all know you not only don’t understand stats at all, but now that you also dont pay attention to anything going on in the game either – we get that. But I’ll fill you in on a secret; they’d be in the playoffs even without the expanded group
“And regarding the team demanding that Clevinger be removed, regardless of what happened”
Just want to take another second to once more ponder how pitful it is that you had absolutely zero idea – but again, not surprising, you haven’t known, or been able to say, anything factual the whole time
I really am embarrassed for you
“Hahaha, yeah, as if a single soul alive believes that hahaha”
A lot of people do.
“Anything even remotely in the ballpark of WAR, or honestly even things much more simplistic than that, is clearly way too far over your microscopic understanding of the game; we all know.”
And apparently concepts as simple as pitching as many innings as possible while allowing as few runs as possible are too complicated for your limited understanding of the game.
“Yes, it was very important to people in the 1920s”
And 2020s. And will remain important until the game stops being played on the field and starts being played on a fangraphs stat sheet.
“Just want to take another second to once more ponder how pitful it is that you had absolutely zero idea – but again, not surprising, you haven’t known, or been able to say, anything factual the whole time”
I know what happened. But you bringing that up indicates to me that your issue with Clevinger is more personal than professional. That and the fact that you have posted over 3-dozen needlessly long comments trying to debate the issue. I also love how you refuse to address your assertion that Yoenis Cespedes is a clubhouse cancer. If you are going to level that accusation at a player, be prepared to back it up.
“I really am embarrassed for you”
Hey the feeling is mutual pal.
“A lot of people do”
Your family doesn’t count, they’re obligated to encourage you
“And will remain important until the game stops being played on the field and starts being played on a fangraphs stat sheet.”
Wow, you really haven’t paid attention to a single thing that has happened the last 30 or so years, have you?
“I know what happened”
Hahaha, yeah, riiiiggghhhttt – yet another thing everyone believes hahaha
“you bringing that up indicates to me that your issue with Clevinger is more personal than professional”
I know you struggle understanding literally everything, but here, I’ll give you yet another little secret – it’s a specific point in time. I was identifying to you that I was referring to the day the players had him physically removed from the club – which was about 4 weeks prior to him being traded (but my error was in assuming you had absolutely any idea what has happened in the world, and that it’d signify a very specific date to you)
So saying it was no different than if a person had said something like “Kluber hasn’t been a part of the Indians since he broke his arm” (and since we know you certainly dont know that happened either, that was May 1st, 2019. Since then he has pitched only 1 inning, and it was for the Rangers)
Also, that it happened has nothing to do with why Clevinger was worthless, with his 0.0 WAR and ranking dead last among starters in almost every single stat. (I can’t change facts, and unlike you, I actuality understand them, and accept them, and use them, no matter what they say. They are just the facts, and they are the only thing I’m ever concerned with …and the fact is, was, and will forever be “Clevinger was statistically the worst starter the Indians used in 2020”)
“Your family doesn’t count, they’re obligated to encourage you”
They don’t read MLBTR
“Wow, you really haven’t paid attention to a single thing that has happened the last 30 or so years, have you?”
Are you projecting your own problems onto me now?
“Hahaha, yeah, riiiiggghhhttt – yet another thing everyone believes hahaha”
Yeah, I know they do… hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
“I know you struggle understanding literally everything, but here, I’ll give you yet another little secret – it’s a specific point in time. I was identifying to you that I was referring to the day the players had him physically removed from the club – which was about 4 weeks prior to him being traded (but my error was in assuming you had absolutely any idea what has happened in the world, and that it’d signify a very specific date to you)
So saying it was no different than if a person had said something like “Kluber hasn’t been a part of the Indians since he broke his arm” (and since we know you certainly dont know that happened either, that was May 1st, 2019. Since then he has pitched only 1 inning, and it was for the Rangers)”
That… has nothing to do with my comment. You clearly have beef with Clevinger. Why? I do not know.
“Also, that it happened has nothing to do with why Clevinger was worthless, with his 0.0 WAR and ranking dead last among starters in almost every single stat.”
… except ERA, the hands down most important one because it tells us how well the starter is doing his literal job.
“I can’t change facts, and unlike you, I actuality understand them, and accept them, and use them, no matter what they say. They are just the facts, and they are the only thing I’m ever concerned with …and the fact is, was, and will forever be “Clevinger was statistically the worst starter the Indians used in 2020”
Keep whispering that to yourself until it becomes true buddy.
And you STILL refuse to back up your assertion that Yoenis Cespedes is a clubhouse cancer. Why is that?
“They don’t read MLBTR”
With how little you know about baseball, pretty sure you too don’t actually read anything here
“That… has nothing to do with my comment. You clearly have beef with Clevinger. Why? I do not know.”
And you know that how? You don’t know. Its just another thing, in a long line of them, that you made up out of nothing, based off me solely using hard, undeniable facts. You’ve completely made up what you think my feelings are …just like you made up the belief I’m even an Indians fan. You don’t know that, and not a single thing I’ve said in this conversation indicates that (other than talking about them here, you got nothing.) But because your world doesn’t revolve around facts, and instead hinges on your opinions and biases, you have to try to assign an opinion and bias stance for me to get me down to your level. Problem is, all I’ve given are facts, so you are forced to make something up
“except ERA, the hands down most important one because it tells us how well the starter is doing his literal job.”
And again you show your profound ignorance, as it literally tells the exact opposite of that.
ERA tells what a pitcher …and manager …and a bunch of fielders …and the opposing players …and even Umpires combined to make the score (but only most of the score, as other parts of the score the pitcher was responsiblec for can be excluded.) ERA can give almost no indication of a pitchers talent at all, it can literallybe worthless in circumstances. That’s why ERA is about the least used stat in baseball front offices at this point.
Being so simplistic and using your limited underling, looking at just ERA, is how a team does something silly like giving Julio Teheran and Trevor Cahill 9 million dollar contracts. Meanwhile, not paying any attention to ERA is why you see teams make trades for unranked, non-prospexts, or seemingly failed draft picks like Kluber, Clevinger or Bauer.
Which is why you cant grasp that, no, I’m not projecting anything at allwhen I point out you seem to have paid attention to absolutely nothing the last 30 or more years – you seem to understand literally nothing at all about the game as it exists in the age of computers
Btw, seasons now done
Traded/removed from 2018 team: Kluber, Bauer, Clevinger, Salazar, Miller, Allen, Gomes, Brantley, Kipnis, Chisenhall, Donaldson, Alvarez, Cabrera, Encarnacion (and many more)
2018 team – .562 w% and 0 playoff wins
2019 team – .574 w% and 0 playoff games
2020 team – .583 w% and unknown playoff wins
.583 w% is good enough for 4th best in AL, and is 1 game out of 2nd place (Oak and Min both have just 1 more win)
That .583 was also put up in a region in which 7 of the 10 teams went to the playoffs, by far the hardest of the 3 regions in 2020 baseball
Power rankings and things Ive seen seem to have them as a top 5-7 team in the game, while MLBs simulation and Billy Ripkin both have Cleveland as their pick for AL Champ (may or may not happen, but it’s what they both picked)
…sooo, tell us again about the “tanking” and being “demonstrably worse” and yadayada. 10 core guys, plus a former MVP and multiple former ASs removed, yet the Indians improved
LOL you really came back two days later to continue your own beatdown and copy-paste a bunch of hogwash you already said? Ok.
I know you have beef with Clevinger because you have over 3-dozen comments arguing that getting rid of him was addition by subtraction despite his 3.02 ERA this year and 3.19 career ERA. Just like that Pirates loser who said back in 2018 that getting rid of Cole and McCutchen was addition by subtraction.
Now are you gonna address your assertion that Yoenis Cespedes is a clubhouse cancer or nah?
Your understanding of time is obviously as poor as your understanding of stats
But lets see …oh, yep, still saying absolutely nothing at all other than screaming you have a preschool understanding of baseball, with your once again having absolutely nothing but a meaningless ERA number.
So let’s see if even you can figure out how mindless your argument is,
Pitchers A walks 3 straight. He is yanked and Pitcher B strikes out the side to strand the guys
Both pitchers had an ERA of 0.00 that inning – and that means they both pitched just as brilliantly, correct? That’s what your almost nonexistent understanding of the game tells you? 0.0 ERA = 0.0 ERA, nothing else matters when figuring out talent …right?
@darkstar61 Sure, looking at ERA for each individual outing is pointless because of the reasons you mentioned. But over the course of a full season, it averages out and if Pitcher A sucks like that every time he pitches, his ERA will reflect that.
Dancing around the Yoenis Cespedes issue in 5… 4… 3… 2…
Well, so much for the Indians’ pitching laughingduck
“looking at ERA for each individual outing is pointless because of the reasons you mentioned. But over the course of a full season, it averages out and if Pitcher A sucks like that every time he pitches, his ERA will reflect that.”
Yes, exactly …which is why Clevingers small sample size ERA was meaningless, and instead a team needs to look at the underlying talent indicating stats to show what his ERA will be if he keeps pitching exactly as he was. In the case of Clevinger, that would have been a 5.65 ERA (easily the worst of all starting pitchers they used)
“Well, so much for the Indians’ pitching”
Best pitcher in baseball had worst game of his season. Happens …and is even more likely in a guys first playoff year. Look at Bauer (5.27 ERA) or Clevinger (4.75 ERA) in their playoff debuts
Losing 1 game, or even if they lose both, still doesn’t change the fact they were better in 2020 than they were when they had 10 more core guys in 2018 though. They could lost today 45-0 and it doesn’t change the fact they won more games, and just as many playoff games, after losing all those many, many, many, stars
“Yes, exactly …which is why Clevingers small sample size ERA was meaningless…”
But his full body of work which includes a 3.19 ERA certainly isn’t meaningless.
“… and instead a team needs to look at the underlying talent indicating stats to show what his ERA will be if he keeps pitching exactly as he was. In the case of Clevinger, that would have been a 5.65 ERA (easily the worst of all starting pitchers they used)”
Actually, his full body of work says he has a 3.19 ERA.
“Best pitcher in baseball had worst game of his season.”
On baseball’s biggest stage. And now Carrasco had a bad start too and the Indians are on the brink of elimination. This, is the pitching staff that according to you doesn’t need Mike Clevinger. But you know everything right?
“They could lost today 45-0 and it doesn’t change the fact they won more games, and just as many playoff games, after losing all those many, many, many, stars”
Doesn’t matter. Their goal is to win a championship while they still have Frankie Lindor. Or at least it should be.
Anyway, at this point, nothing else you say matters until you address your ridiculous assertion that Yoenis Cespedes is a clubhouse cancer.
Na na na na
Na na na na
Hey hey hey
Goodbye!
Could be karma for his breaking protocol and putting old teammates at risk…
It’s not. It’s not.
Makes just as much sense as Colin Rea pitching 3.1 innings for the Marlins, getting injured, and saying it was the Padres fault after however many pitches he threw for them.
Injuries happen. Part of the game.
If it’s serious padres will have to rely heavily on their pen to shorten games in the playoffs.
Playoffs are best of 3 and best of 5 to get to the WS.
CS and WS*
anything that happens in baseball is karma if you listen to these comment sections.
Stop it, no, stop NO STOP IT! Don’t be like your ex-co-worker Corey Kluber and pitch one inning and then just say “peace dude”. Padres need Clev, and I actually like the guy. Hope he comes back for the playoffs.
I know it’s frustrating, but Kluber is a good guy and as tough as they come. When he got hit in the forearm and broke his arm last year, his facial expression never changed. When the trainer pushed on it, there was no wincing or anything. He’s tough as nails. But you can’t pitch with a tear in your shoulder. I wish he would’ve rebounded and been awesome this year for you guys, but it’s not because he is soft or decided to just stop.
Complete agree. Kluber is a bulldog!
No, I love Kluber, but the tear after one inning just kind of sums up this Rangers season. I hope we can sign him back for next season though, because I seriously want to witness his prestige once again.
Could he worse he could he Cole Hamels
The Indians have allowed a few extreme talent with signs that should concern guys to leave the last few seasons.
Kluber and Clevinger seem to be joining Miller/Allen/Shaw as being not nearly as anticipated for their new franchises.
We may be getting into a Tampa Bay situation where everyone plucked out of the Cleveland stable should be treated as “buyer beware”
@Darkstar that is not anything particular with pitchers from the Indians, it is just pitchers in general – especially as they start to get around 30 years old.
Davies is putting up better numbers this year than he has recently but “front end” is a stretch. He’s a #3 starter at best, his fip this year is 4. He’s giving up fewer HR than when he was in Milwaukee, which should be the case for anyone given the bandbox the brewers play in, and his K/9 numbers are up slightly given the shortened season. Any Padres fans want to educate me about what I’m missing?
I wasn’t watching today’s game but I’ve seen a number of people on Instagram saying it’s not a major injury just a 5-10 day looking thing. Honestly Lamet, Davies, and Paddack make a decent 1-2-3 I’m comfortable with. This is one of the best offenses in the league with a solid pitching staff before Clevinger. Richards is pitching well too I think they make it to the WS unless the dodgers are in the way which they probably will be.
Pitching wins Rings
Hitting wins Fries. Fielding wins Shakes.
Can you name the two pitchers in the past 5 years who have had a biceps injury that did not result in a TJ surgery within a year?
Its serious.
@stevewpants “but, but the padres are better than dodgers based on war at almost every position.” -typical padres Stan
They are relying on injury prone Clevinger, a sophomore rookie in lamet, and Davies who’s having a career year. Rotation is average just don’t let a padres fan hear this. Who’s closing for padres Rosenthal? Now that’s funny.
I trust every padres pitcher in the playoffs more than I trust Clayton Kershaw.
They’ll throw him out there in another elimination game, he’ll blow it like he usually does, and dodger fans will be left crying about how this was our year.
They’ll discredit whoever winds up winning it all this year while denying that had the dodgers won it all theyd be counting it like any other title.
Kershaw has won plenty of big playoff games for the Dodgers. That narrative is lazy at this point. Kershaw should not have even been in the game against the Nats last year. I trust him starting a playoff game over every Padres starter.
I find it funny you mention postseason and kershaw his era is a 4.3, I looked into other cy young pitchers and found that randy Johnson, roger clemens and Justin verlander to name a few. They all had similar postseason numbers to kershaw. When he is constantly expected to go 8 innings your bound to run into trouble. Now that our bullpen is a strong point he will be asked to go 5/6 which historically he is strong at. I’m not worried at all
Last 2 years. Obliterated by Boston and shelled by Washington. Just absolutely crushed. They coule have thrown out a position player every inning and received better production.
But yeah man, go ahead and put your faith in Kershaw. Higher you get your hopes harder its going to be when he gets destroyed.
Not a matter of if. Its a matter of when.
Verlander has a career 3.40 era in the playoffs per baseball reference. Randy Johnson had a 3.50 era per baseball reference. Clemens has a 3.75 era in the postseason per baseball reference.
You tried though man. That’s what counts. More than a half run worse than all 3 pitchers you mentioned didn’t prove anything.
Although it’s funny you bring up those pitchers.
Randy Johnson? Dude got better the higher the stakes.
NLCS/ALCS/WS. Dominant.
1.13, 2.35, 1.04 era respectively. Small sample size but certainly wasn’t the issue.
Roger Clemens? Same thing. Came up big higher the stakes. Had way better stats in ALCS and NLCS and filthy in the WS with a 2.37 era.
Justin Verlander? Came up big in the ALCS and stunk in the WS.
Kershaw? Just gets progressively worse the higher the stakes. Good in the DS, worse in the CS, just plain sucks in the WS.
Kershaw had a quality start in game 2 vs the Nationals so no you could have not got better production out of a position player. What a bunch of drivel from you. Yeah he was bleh vs the Red Sox but he had 2 elite starts to push his team to the World Series.
@Marvels MagaMan Verlander was outstanding in the WS. The only problem was the offense took the day off in both of his starts.
I’m guessing the low iq of your posts isn’t enough. If you splitting hairs over half a run then you don’t watch baseball. People act as if he is supposed to put up a 1-2 era every postseason. It’s never been resonable. If you look at him through 5-6 innings his era is almost 2 runs lower. Cards series 7th inning melt down, Astros (cheating) Boston (cheating) nice try there though bro!
absolutely crushed?! he gave up 1 run for 6 then back to back home runs
Thats absolutely crushed? hahahaha ok
and sucks in World Series?
The world series where he gave up 1 hit thru 4 innings, then the Astros magically scored 5 runs in 5 hitters? Yeah there was nothing suspect about them not swinging and missing at a single clayton kershaw curveball
you’re justifying cheaters, based on your name not shocked
Commonsenseslapsyou
I wouldn’t say “crushed”. But when you come in to the 8th inning with a 3-1 lead on a full 5 days rest and throw those hangers? More like choked
@mike. we are talking career numbers here. verlander hasn’t faired well in the world series.
7 games 5.68 era.
@commondense 5.40 era in 5 games, 4 starts. Kershae S U C K S in the world series.
era below 4 is good for post season. era over 4 isn’t the stuff of legend and hardly anything to write home about.
He’s closer to a #4 or #5 starter in the post season than he is an ace.
Kershaw B L O W S in the.post season. I can’t wait to hear the excuses for this year’s early exit and not winning it all.
Maybe try blaming air quality or something. Try something new.
That’s funny. Thanks for the good laugh.
Or not a reliever and it was a stupid move
We see starters ALL THE TIME suck out fo the pen. It’s not their routine
It’s funny tho fans who don’t have teams in the playoffs LOVE telling me how much they would hate the have kershaw. Yet. You idiots don’t make the playoffs without him so…..
Don’t bother trying to reason with Padre fans. I told them a few months ago May has better stuff and higer upside than Paddack and got attacked like it was crazy. How the turntables turn.
It’s funny you should mention that, all they have to talk about is lamet and tatis lol, we have buehler, gonsolin, May, urias, bellinger, seager and now mookie. If dodgers and padres play each other in playoffs it will be dodgers in 5 4-1 dodgers.
I like my predictions more specific than that. How about the scores of all the games and the winning pitchers?
It’s funny how you just try to change facts to fit your narrative imindless. You kinda forgot we have 2 and formerly 3 guys with numbers very similar to your best hitter Betts in Machado and Myers. One slightly better one slightly worse. Tatis, Hosmer, Grisham, Cronenworth, Lamet, Davies, Clevinger and Pomeranz are all killing it this year. But you only choose to notice Tatis and Lamet. That is your problem, not ours.
those hanging beach balls he threw to Rendon and Soto…. that was funny stuff
I don’t know. The Padres always play your Dodgers like their lives depend on it.
@javia I can go on and on with the rest of our supporting cast that’s depth is far deeper than yours. Grisham is 0-20, tatis is 1-17 cronenworth coming back to reality. There’s a reason that padres have a 3 percent chance at winning ws. Betts, seager are better than tatis and machado no contest. Our rotation is also deeper not even getting into the bullpen.
Padre fan says “Paddack is incredible” this after spring training game not brightest bunch
@imindless-Typical fan bias. Tatis has 500-AB of .300+, 35-HR 25-SB ..950+ OPS production and 50-AB of crap. But I’m sure he stinks. Manny Machado has had star level, biggest contract in the game at the time type of production every year since his rookie year. Except for 1 year which wasn’t great but was still good. Yet somehow they just aren’t that good?
Seager has averaged about 20-HR per year but now that he is on a 40-HR pace over 200-AB this year you think that is his new normal? Or Bellinger. He hits .267/.352, .260/.343, .239/.325 but no, no, no! That’s not the real him! The 1 year when he hit .305/.406 is somehow his REAL normal? That’s called fan bias mindless.
His name says it all. Mindless.
yeah! that guy who has been in the league 3 full seasons and has already won the ROY and an MVP, he sucks!
And who cares that Cody is hitting over 360 for the last 10 days! Or that he is still on pace for 30+ bombs over a full season! Or still in this down 50 games, he STILL has a nearly 4 WAR pace for the year! he SUCKS!
guess padre fans only care when guys are hot when its their team. Wouldn’t want to see Tatis going through his first slump right into the playoffs, would we?!
oh wait. he’s a padre. you think he’s a god. he isn’t slumping, we are all just imagining things!! mhmmm
What is your point commonsense? Yes, Tatis is slumping. So is Bellinger, but every Dodger fan including you talks about him like he is god. Maybe you should look in the mirror before you speak? Even slumping Tatis has far, far superior numbers to Bellinger. Machado has a .979 OPS and 16-HR. Seager has .994 and 15-HR. Looks pretty damn equal to me!
For one, you seem to harp on the smallest point with the Dodgers. So just pointing out how dumb of a point it is, using Tatis as an example
Bellinger has a WAY longer track record than Tatis. Tatis had half a season last year, and a 60 game season this year. Nice non-linear time frame that a player could just be hot during two stretches. Let’s see him do it for 3 years before comparing him to an MVP and ROY winner who’s just started arbitration
Second. Machado makes 30M. Corey 7M. So congrats, you have to pay Machado 4x as much as we do Seager to, by your words, “be pretty even”
To really drive home how much Machado makes. Bellinger and Seager combined make just 60% the salary of Machado
In fact, the dodgers have Seager, Bellinger AND Pollock for 1M less than you pay Machado. So you wanna compare who got the most out of their 30M? Pick your battles bud
Tatis hasn’t played a full year yet Leitner comparing him to Tony Gwynn just mindless myopic media and fan base
Yawn at all these Padres fans-
Trade deadline – Oh we coming hard ! We go down to Sd and smack um around just like always-
Pads have officially gained zero games in the standings after 6 trades, Buehler going down , May missing time, Turner out almost every day, and us losing our best Rp in Ferg
Padres strike zero fear in the Dodgers heart, how could they at this point?
Do you even look at your comment before you post it commonsense? I just, literally JUST made the point that you are trying to make! You were actually responding to what I just said and you agreed with me!!
Yes, Bellinger has a longer track record than Tatis. His track record says he is a .265 hitter who will give you 35-HR. Period. You Dodger fans keep talking about him like he is a .300/.400 45-HR guy. He isn’t!! He has proven that with his “WAY longer track record.”
Tatis on the other hand has roughly 550-AB. Again, 500-AB of awesome and 50-AB of crap. Yet you are arguing that for some crazy reason that the small bad sample is the real Tatis and the small great sample is the real Bellinger while totally ignoring the great bulk of what they have done!
You don’t have to fully believe in Tatis. But until he gives you 500-AB of something noticeably worse than the 500-AB of awesome he has already shown, well then you are just showing fan bias. I mean Dustin May has far less mlb experience than Tatis. What if I told you he was going to regress and you are deluding yourself thinking he is really that good? You would absolutely agree, right? I mean, considering that is what you have been arguing for.
Lmao
There’s a very good reason to say Tatis is going to regress. He strikes out 30% or more of the time and relies on an extremely high batting average on balls in play
By the numbers, this slump is OVERDUE for Tatis tbh
Historically, these are worrisome signs of young players. Very few players can maintain a K rate over 30% and/or a BABIP of 370 for his career. I’m not biased. I’m looking at the stats
If you want to say May’s FIP could be worrisome, sure. But you could also say he’s intentionally saving his pitches by starting his pitches down the middle and then letting their break take control (that’s what he does, btw). He has strikeout stuff. He’s just not wasting pitches looking for chases. He’s pitching to contact and using the best defense in baseball to his advantage
You love to pretend I’m biased. But I always have one or more stat to back up my position
@javia you just got schooled. I’ll take larger body of work over a Shortened season of production padres haven’t had a chance to slump until now dodgers had it about 15/20 games ago when you guys thought you were closing ground. Padres are slumping going into playoffs with injuries. Yikes
Dodger should lose the next 3 games with Angels to screw the Asstros out of there last chance to make the playoffs before there team loses some their top players to FA. If the Angels win all 3 games and if the Asstros the Asstros lose 3 of 4 to the Rangers it becomes a tie for second. The Angels win the tie breaker because of head to head play. please, please me, screw the Asstros.
You forgot to mention Texas is tanking for the 1/2 pick so theres that….
Nope. Because most of my fellow Padre fans don’t really know much about baseball outside of San Diego. They actually think those 3 pitchers Preller got from the Mariners are total studs.
3 pitchers?
I think this was planned but the Padres are saying it was not.
Makes sense to get him ready for the playoffs. He can get his work in underground at the stadium and with no reporters there no one will know. He looked great in his one inning of work today.
Let me guess, you also think Bush did 9/11?
Outside of signing off on the Sammy Sosa trade, What does Bush’s ineptitude have to do with baseball?
Actually, makes no sense to run him out there just to pull him after one inning just to fake an injury. They could easily have him do any number of other things to get tuned up that don’t involve such bush league tactics. He could workout in relative anonymity at the alternate site. Lots of possibilities.
Anyway, Padres are gonna get run by the Dodgers in the NLDS so it really doesn’t matter.
Nah. The biggest threat to the Dodgers in the NL will be the Braves. Better lineup and bullpen than the Pods and the young pitchers have come around. Respect to the Padres, but the Dodgers are simply better as are the Braves. By the way, I notice that Tatis has finally been given a day off. In addition to costing Tatis a shot at MVP, the 6-for-43 slump has also dropped him to second-best among shortstops. Corey Seager has been more consistent and now leads Tatis in most categories despite missing a few games.
I don’t know… one of the Padres’ issues last year was that they were literally owned by teams like the Pirates and the (2019) Marlins. If they aren’t careful they might find themselves two games and out in the first round.
You can say the same about the Dodgers. Hubris is seldom rewarded.
He’s having an MRI. cmon
Totally , you nailed it Dave –
CUT MY LIFE INTO PIECES!
This is never good and I just hope it isn’t serious for everyone’s sake. Padres will need this guy down the stretch in the playoffs. Not many teams have a shot at the Dodgers right now and I think Padres are within striking distance. Hopefully it’s something small like a blister or arm fatigue
They said a sprained elbow, l think that’s what they about Ohtani before eventually having TJ.
GASP OH KNOW Tommy John surgery 2.0!
If he pitches against the G’s Sunday we’ll know this is BS.
There is no way he’s pitching Sunday.
Interesting note on how we can be told the wrong stuff so often that we sometimes assume it’s true. In recent years, we have been led to believe that the Padres have the best farm system in baseball while the Dodgers have been built with a checkbook. But as of today, the Padres have just two players on their Major League roster who have spent their entire professional career in the San Diego organization while the Dodgers have 16 homegrown players on their roster. The two Padres are Lamet and Morejon, with the remaining players being acquired through trades and free agency.
The 16 homegrown Dodgers total seven position players and nine pitchers, including the entire starting rotation. The injured Caleb Ferguson was not factored into the current roster. It further includes two NL MVPs, a three-time Cy Young winner, two Rookies of the Year, and six all-stars. The current Dodgers roster has five players from the 2016 draft alone, with a sixth, Zack McInstry, getting his first MLB at-bats a few days ago. Better farm system of the two teams? That would be the Dodgers and it isn’t even close. In fact, the Padres roster will probably have the fewest homegrown players of any 2020 playoff team.
If you look historically the padres have only had like 2 great players come out of there farm dave Winfield, Tony Gwynn. Padres draft high almost every year and still draft bust after bust. I feel bad for them Since losing chargers. However, San Diego is a beautiful city and Climate and weather are stunning hard to be to sad being a cellar dwellers in sd.
Dave Winfield never came out of the Padres farm system. He went straight from college ball to the majors.
Ozzie Smith also spent 68 games as a Padre farmhand in Walla Walla, Washington before joining the parent club.
Come on man, that is seriously stretching the limits. The bottom line is they scouted him, they drafted him, they evaluated him and they placed him at the major league level, so although he didn’t go through the farm system he was still a homegrown talent. History has proven that they made the right move.
Kind of stretching your argument into oblivion there aren’t you? If they draft a player or he spends his time in the minors with them, then the player came out of their farm system.
You realize farm doesn’t mean the minor leagues, right?
The fact that you didn’t mention Roberto Alomar and Ozzie Smith tells me you’re not qualified to evaluate who has come out of the Padres farm system over the years.
Randy Jones was no slouch
The mindlessness continues…
@Cey Hey, I see your point, but to be fair, many of the Padres prospects were acquired when they were in the low minors, so they did grow them, to an extent.
Of course, they just got flat out lucky on Tatis Jr, who is a transcendental talent.
I think Preller is a conman and a sleazeball, but he ‘s definitely assembled a young and talented core that reminds me a bit of the mid-90’s Indians.
The farm system rankings have nothing to do with the players that have reached the majors, or the historical performance of a farm system. It is simply a way to measure the current level of talent that is in the pipeline.
Give it a rest man
What is the Padres payroll? What is the Dodgers payroll. How much are the Dodgers paying Betts? How many players have the Dodgers been able to keep that no other team could have because of their unlimited payroll?
You do realize that since the new owners took over for the 2013 season the Dodgers, NOT including CBT fines, have spent $2 billion on payroll? That is more than $400 million more than the 2nd highest spending team in the NL.
So please, stop it with your BS about them not trying to buy a championship. Any intelligent person can see right through your whining.
Oh please. Let’s throw in the 2013 and 14 payrolls at 275-300M+ and then pretend they spend like that today!
They have a completely homegrown rotation and the best starter era in baseball. NO ONE has 5 home grown starters like LA.
For the entire staff, the only pitching that didn’t hit some level of Dodger minor league coaching is McGee, Treinan, Wood, Brusdar and Kelly. How many teams have 14 of 19 arms Come up thru the system?
Or let’s do position players! They have 3 MLB quality home grown catchers
Half the infield is completely homegrown (seager Lux and Rios) while the other half only had success once coming to LA (JT, Muncy, Kike), 2 of them on minor league deals
Now the outfield! 3 of 5 outfielder are also home grown or signed as minor league free agents. Not Mookie and not Pollock
Give it up on the 2013 rally cry. They win because they develop talent, identify their best talent, and keep them playing.
If I’m being generous, it’s 10 of 24 guys that aren’t home grown? And that counts all the minor league signings as not home grown. Go ahead, do the Phillies
@Koamalu it’s a combination of things. Yes, the Dodgers run a higher payroll than most. But their scouting and development are also topnotch, hence them having a guy in the top 3 for NL ROY seemingly every season.
+ Padres, fans, and media hype their players to no end. Paddack with dumb mullet haircut getting nickname. Tatis in HOF already.
We know it isn’t a concussion, since he is missing the required equipment for that!
and the Braves dodged that bullet.
Dodged what bullet? He isn’t a 1 month rental.
And shot themselves in the foot trading for Tommy Milone. Didn’t really dodge a bullet. Just shot themselves with a different gun.
They gave up the always impressive and sought after PTBNL for Milone. Meanwhile the Padres gave up a haul for a dude that just sprained his elbow and probably won’t even pitch in the post season. Also, who knows how this affects him going forward.
I’m guaranteeing the Dodgers win the WS this year in 5 over the Yankees. No way they lose. Best rotation. Best bullpen. Best offense. They are a lock.
Gonna put some money on it in Vegas?
Their offense is not intimidating this year. Pollack and Seager are really the only starters hitting for a good average and it looks like Turner is not recovered from his hamstring injury.
Betts is not hitting for average?
Nuts and bolts your forgot mookie sporting a .306 average with 16 homeruns. Also chris Taylor having a huge year, even with bellinger and muncy having down years the lineup is deep. Turner is also coming back.
I did forget Betts.
You’re Doyers are fearful of our Padres. Admit it. I dare you to admit this fact.
The Dodgers are second in the Majors in runs scored, first in home runs, second in slugging – power in bunches, despite having the third best K rate in the Majors…but yeah, it’s just Pollock and Seager doing work.
I do know the stats. Basically making my statement due to Bellinger and Muncy having really down years and Turners power numbers being really down. I stick to my statement their lineup is not as scary as it has been.
How many world series did the Doyers win in the past two that they attended? When you make two world series in such a short amount of time and lose both- that’s called CHOKING. ADMIT IT. Doyers are a joke and will not be winning the world series any time soon.
@nutznboltz. Not scary? They have the second most runs scored in baseball..and not just their league. I think you didn’t check team stats before you said that.
I think i hear this every year, at least for the last 6 or 7 years and then well it just doesn’t happen. They haven’t done anything of note for over 30 years.
towinagain, “I’m guaranteeing the Dodgers win the WS this year in 5 over the Yankees. No way they lose. Best rotation. Best bullpen. Best offense. They are a lock”. No such thing as a lock in baseball….just enjoy the ride…and don’t bet your life savings.
Tell the Nat’s that
No off days till the World Series. You’re not doing a 3 pitchers-gets-you-to-the-Dance this year
This is why those you said Cleveland lost the Clevinger trade spoke way to soon. As great as Clevinger can be he’s prone to injury. SD knew it, Indiana knew it, 28 other teams knew it. Otherwise they would have received more for Clevinger. Add the COVID fiasco and you have pretty good return.
I wonder why he reported no problem with his bicep in his last bullpen session after being scratched a day or two before?
hopefully the Phillies face tje Pads if they get in
Hahahahahahahahahahah, that’s funny. Oh and by the way we will have your catcher next year lol.
Phillies bullpen against the team with the second highest OPS+ in the league? That would be a lot of fun for San Diego.
Let’s be real though, Phillies just dropped 3 to the Nats and still have Tampa to play, they’re not getting the 5 seed, they’ll be lucky to get in.
In the event that the eventual outcome of this injury requires surgery,
what do you think about the procedure,
will the surgeon use a scalpel or a CLEVINGER ??
It’s the same guy who traded leader in saves this year Hand and Cimber for Mejia
Wish him the best, thought at time price was low
Man this sucks for the Padres. And with all the moves they made at the deadline they’ve been one of the more interesting stories/teams to watch this year. Would really just be a crappy blow to a team that will be fun to watch in the playoffs.
Happened to look at the Padres Baseball Reference page after clicking on Clevenger’s and noticed that Pomeranz hasnt allowed a run all season! I know it’s only been 18 IP but still that’s quite impressive for his first season of full-time relief work!
Small thing, it’s 18 games but 17 innings
It’s cool sure But it’s not even 2 full games lol
Of course you can say the same thing about anyone this year. I mean yeah but it’s just 60 games.
way to down play a .000 ERA.
Pomeranz is good
It’s two complete games
3 6 inning starts
It’s 17 innings. Yawn
Yeah anybody can go 18 innings without giving a run. Dodgers have a couple pitchers who’ve…. wait no.
Well, they have one pitcher who has done…….wait no
Well surely the dodgers have a guy who has held opponents to .121/.224/.121…..
oh wait nope.
McGhee- .191/.225/.324 is their closest. Not as good. Last 28 days though .28q/.281/.531
So in conclusion, you said nothing that disproved what I just said
Boy. You are a tool
Oh wait! Mitch white has a 0.0 era!! It’s 3 innings, but what do you care!?
Yeah I’ll be just fine with my starter with a 1.77 era over 40, 3 guys with sub 2 eras. Or the 4 more pitchers with a sub 2.5 era on LA
But hey! 17 innings! Gotta win something I guess. Cool story bro
….So… Marvel, you’re bragging about how good the oft-injured, $34 million dollar LOOGY for the Padres is
After 17 innings. Take a victory lap
Pomeranz isn’t a LOOGY. He’s been able to get righties out as well this year.
He has 18 games and 17 innings. Even with a 3 batter min. He doesn’t face good righties if he doesn’t have to. Stop lying
Clevinger has a very violent delivery. Short career
Most players have a short career. He is 29 right now. He likely has another 5 seasons left.
Bicep could be related to the elbow, we will see.
Or is it just a bicep tear or strain.
He is likely to pitch again in the playoffs as long as it isn’t elbow damage.
He only has to hold up through 2022
I don’t like to root for guys getting hurt but as a giants fan this is good news as he just dominated them last time around and they have 4 more against the pads
Part of that was because most of the Giants hitters had never faced Clevinger before. That’s also part of the reason why Clev didn’t face the Dodgers in their final regular season series.
Too many 12 oz curls will do that every time !!
Ruh-roh. When it is a ligament, they call damaged tissue a “sprain.” When it is a muscle or tendon, it is called a “strain.” Damaged elbow…ligament “sprain”…Tommy John?
Cleveland seems to know just went to trade away their pitchers. So far the haul hasn’t done much but if Clev loses significant times due to injury it could end up being a win for the Indians
Only a win if one of the teams win a World Series with those guys. Naylor and hedges are lost causes but Miller and arias provide promise
Lowtalker: I wouldn’t call Naylor a “lost cause” yet. Yeah, he’s definitely NOT setting MLB on fire by any stretch. He’s ONLY 23. If he went to college, instead of signing out of HS,this would be his 2nd full yr. That would be the ’18 draft class. There’s only a couple of position players from that class to be called up (N. Hoerner, N. Madrigal,?) and a few SP’s (B. Singer, K. Bubic, C. Mize & T. Skubal).
totally I mean it would suck to have bauer right now
Maybe Preller should try to get the trade nixed like Boston and Miami did in 2016.
From bicep to elbow
Shut him down
Tribe wins another trade.
You are not a smart person. I love Hedges and Naylor and everyone else included and wish them the best but I still stick with my initial statement of the following: “You are not a smart person”
In the past 5 seasons, only two pitchers who had a biceps injury avoided Tommy John within a year. One of those eventually had TJ surgery. The only question for Clevinger is when he will have the surgery?
Will the Padres be smart and schedule it as soon as the UCL injury is confirmed when the swelling goes down and only lose 2021 or will they try to rehab him in the offseason and then end up doing the surgery next season and lose 2021 and part of 2022?
Pads Fans back
Sprained elbow after an MRI means it’s too inflamed to see the level of damage.
Prolly have to wait for meds to work and do another in 2 weeks or so. Could be TJS, and that would be his second right? That’s no Bueno
The thing about Clevinger’s injury that bothers me most going into the playoffs is that Tingler doesn’t know how to manage a pitching staff. Especially the bullpen. We’ve been winning in spite of his bullpen use, not because of it! He’s been using 6+ pitchers a game all year with no regard to the game situation, and you can’t keep doing that and expect to win.
That’s Padre fan favorite pastime mindless criticism of managers
This is a response to User: “SDHotDawg” (a very stupid user name, btw). I don’t think I’ve ever seen one intelligent comment from you on any of these Padres based forums. Serious question. You aren’t a Padres Fan- clearly. So other than having a very stupid user name, And nothing of any substance to post. Ever. What is your point on these comment sections? Get a job. You clearly have too much time on your hands. Jayce Tingler is currently a front runner for Head Coach of The Year (as a Rookie Head Coach, mind you). Your comments are beyond laughable. Every one of them.
Head Coach of the Year? Wow, you’re quite the baseball fan.
sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/padres/story/2020-…
Breaking News from: Fox Sports- San Diego (Ch 322)- Clevinger’s injury is going to require a cortisone shot and severity wise may still be able to toss in round one of Playoffs. Great news for the Friar Faithful.
Hi Connor,
Can you fix this sentence, please? You put ‘been’ twice.
“Rather, he has ‘been been’ diagnosed with a right elbow posterior impingement has received a cortisone shot, Cassavell tweets.”
And then Lamet went down…….DEVASTATING!
Might survive in the playoffs without Clevinger, but not without him, Myers and Lamet. Tough break for the Padres. They were playing exciting baseball and were this year’s feel-good story.
I’m sure a lot of people are hoping they beat out the Dodgers and get to the WS.
Gotta get the bats going again. Tatis , Grisham and Cronenworth have been cool to cold for a few weeks. Good to have Hosmer back and looking good. Pham? Hand injuries are tough.
Unsung hero for Padres this year might be Jurickson Profar. He’s really come on after spending the first half of the season below the Mendoza line. Remember, it wasn’t too long ago he was rated the #1 prospect in all of baseball.
Lastly, with two days remaining in my fantasy baseball season, I’m in second place and just a lone point behind the first place team. Most of the categories have been settled, but I’m a home run and five RBIs behind the first place team. Need to pass him in both to win outright. So I’m rooting for the Padres since I have five Padres , Tatis, Profar, Hosmer, Nola and Croeneorth, among my fourteen hitters.
Go Padres!