Neither the Pirates nor their long-suffering fans needed more unfortunate news Wednesday, but they received some centering on one of the team’s most prominent players. The club announced that right-hander Chris Archer underwent the dreaded thoracic outlet syndrome surgery on Tuesday, meaning he won’t play in 2020 if there is a season.
While the team believes Archer will be ready to return in 2021, it’s very much up in the air whether he will pitch for the Pirates again. The club does have Archer’s rights for ’21 by way of an option worth $11MM, but it could choose to buy him out instead for a relatively paltry $250K. In light of the surgery – not to mention the money the low-budget Pirates would save (which could be all the more important for them in these uncertain economic times) and Archer’s uninspiring production in their uniform – it wouldn’t be a surprise to see the Bucs cut ties with him in a few months.
It’s well known by now to everyone who closely follows the majors, but here’s yet another reminder: Archer joined Pittsburgh in a 2018 trade with the Rays that looked like one of the worst in Pirates history even before Wednesday’s developments. The Pirates and then-general manager Neal Huntington thought they were acquiring a front-end, reasonably priced starter in Archer, who was then 29 and someone who had recorded a 3.69 ERA/3.48 FIP with more than a strikeout per inning in 1,063 frames as a Ray. Since Archer got to Pittsburgh, though, his run prevention has gone in the tank. While he has struck out almost 11 batters per nine, he has also logged a less-than-stellar 4.92 ERA/4.71 FIP over 172 innings as a Pirate.
The Rays, for their part, are no doubt pleased with their end of the trade. They came away with outfielder Austin Meadows and righty Tyler Glasnow, who were promising prospects as Pirates and who have since proven their worth in the majors. The 25-year-old Meadows was a 4.0-fWAR player with 33 home runs a season ago. Glasnow missed a substantial amount of time with injuries in 2019, but the towering 26-year-old was a force during the 60 2/3 innings he did accrue, as he owned hitters with a 1.78 ERA/2.26 FIP, 11.27 K/9 against 2.08 BB/9, and a 50.4 percent groundball rate.
Now more than ever before, it appears the Pirates are going to rue making this deal. So, perhaps they’ll regard it as a sunk cost and decline Archer’s option when the time comes, especially considering new GM Ben Cherington has no connection to the trade that brought the hurler to the Steel City. As you’d expect, though, Cherington suggested Wednesday he hasn’t closed the door on retaining Archer.
“We won’t have games to evaluate, but there will be other information that we have at that time that we don’t have now,” Cherington told Jason Mackey of the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. “We want to take all the time we possibly can until we have no time remaining, and then make the best decision we can at that time.”
Cherington would probably like to at least get something for Archer in a trade, but that may be impossible to ask now that he’s coming off TOS surgery. Regardless, do you think Archer is done as a Pirate?
(Poll link for app users)
If I were a player I’d have surgery and skip this season. You get full pay, whatever that’ll be, and you don’t have to go through this nonsense.
No, you just have to have surgery. That’s so much better.
What if you don’t need surgery? Going under the knife for no reason seems absurd.
As a cardinal fan, I will never feel bad for a division rival, but I can’t help but feel sad for pirates fans
There’s a difference between bad management and not even having a chance. Pittsburgh is such a wonderful city and their ballpark is one of the best. Great management is crucial, but the deck is stacked against you when ownership doesn’t give you a fighting chance.
As a Cardinals fan, you should pray Mikolas has TJ surgery now instead of missing next year too.
Even if he has it right now, would most likely not be back until August if at all next year.
I think it’s perfectly understandable to feel bad for a division rival in this case. It’s the pirates, what’d they ever do to anyone?
Archer will never be the same again nobody comes back from TOS, ask Matt Harvey, Tyson Ross, Jaime Garcia, Phil Hughes etc…
Kenny Rogers Matt Harrison and Josh Beckett all had TOS surgery and had decent but not spectacular careers after surgery.
Yeah, decent, but nobody ever seems to fully recover their previous ability after this surgery, and many don’t even return to be decent. It basically ended Chris Carpenter’s career.
The velocity doesn’t seem to come back. Back of the rotation junkballer could be attained perhaps.
google.com/amp/s/www.mlb.com/amp/news/top-10-tommy…
Those are successful Ulnar collateral ligament reconstruction surgery (Tommy John) not thoracic outlet syndrome surgery.
He was terrible before this surgery
The Pirates got robbed in the Archer. GM of Tampa took GM of Pirates to the cleaners. Tampa GM had the Gaul to even ask for PTBNL ( Baz). Pirates really don’t care about being a Championship Team. The Team is strictly run as a cash cow business. Can anyone name 5 players that retired as a career Pittsburgh Pirate in the last 20 years?? Think about that. The Pirates are one of MLB’s feeder Teams to other MLB Teams. Sad to say I will never see a Pirates World Series home Pirates game again in my lifetime. For the record 1979 was the last appearance in the World Series.
I feel your pain. I moved to Pittsburgh area from St Louis area 16 years ago. I LOVE the stadium and views. I try to watch games that are not against the Cards and it is painful. Like the bad news bears. They seem to have trouble developing and retaining talent as they seem unwilling to spend money on a true superstar.
Only 22 players have retired since 2000 having played their entire career for the same team, and most of them were Yankees, Twins and Angels. So the fact that Pittsburgh doesn’t have any is totally irrelevant, as is your entire ridiculous comment.
Exactly frustratedppf. We alll knew that trade was based solely on archers contract. It was SUCH a stupid trade before the ptbnl, now it’s straight garbage. Thats why Neil is gone. You cannot keep a GM that makes that trade, especially giving a top pitcher away after the Cole debacle and not graduating any other successful pitchers for years. Here’s to this being a ray Shero/ Rutherford type of situation where the new management comes in and develops these past draft picks correctly and we see major attributes from some of his drafts at least.
Pirates need new ownership, but if I had that much money I would not buy the Pirates.
Let it out man. That’s what these boards are for!
So true
This trade was never good, it wasn’t terrible either though. Meadows was always a Top-50 prospect and looked good when he got the call-up. Glasnow was mostly a Top-15 prospect, but he looked like trash and they gave up on him as a starter after year 2.
The only good thing about Archer were his strikeouts and contract, and this isn’t fantasy Roto. He was never going to be that #1 or #2 starter, borderline #3 only b/c he was durable. But he gave up almost 1 hr a game so you know you’re going to be trailing most of the time. They could have probably gotten similar players for that package – Robbie Ray? Not sure if they went after him. I’m always pro-selling prospects that aren’t Baseball America Top-5. Anything outside the Top-5 it’s a crap shoot. Inside the Top-5 those guys typically pan out or at least put together a couple good years.
At the end of the day Arhcer is cooked. Glasnow, maybe he becomes nothing, maybe he is an Ace. But Meadows had a shot at being a star.
The trade was terrible. The Pirates swapped Glasnow, a top 15 prospect who had an ERA of 4.34 at the time of the trade, for Archer, a washed up guy with two pitches and an ERA of 4.31 at the time of the trade. Off the bat Glasnow had more value than Archer considering they were providing the same value but Glasnow was younger, had potential, and more years of control. Then the Pirates decided the best move would be to hand them Meadows on top of that, who was hitting pretty well at the time of the trade and was becoming a seemingly cant miss prospect. And then Baz was thrown on top of that. An insanely foolish trade that has become even worse with bad luck.
If they wanted an ERA of 4.30 guy, they should’ve kept Glasnow. But no, they gave up Glasnow, Meadows, and Baz to get their 4.30 ERA guy (who then posted an ERA of 5.19 the year afterwards). The trade was terrible from the onset. Its not like they traded for Archer in 2014 or 2015 which wouldve been more understandable.
Who throws a very very recent top 15 pick (I forget what Baz was) in as a throw in ptbnl!!!?? Seriously. Basically your top 3 prospects, 2 which are major league ready, for a 3rd or 4th starter on a good team (thats what archer was even at his best, he was never an ace) Huntington lost his mind
Disagree
Trade was one of the worst (not the worst) but 3 quality players for a bum….. hard to recover from it
I voted no in the poll because I see the Pirates buying out Archer then resigning him to a 1 year deal with incentives with a team option for a second year and see if he can come back. Odds not great for that scenario but could see it happening
They might bring him back in 7 years; oh wait Huntington is gone.
“thought they were acquiring a front-end, reasonably priced starter in Archer”.
I don’t know why that narrative exist. Pre-2016 Archer was elite. But 2017, 2018 and the first half of 2019 was mid-rotation production.
You are correct. As a Rays fan, I was thrilled we were trading Archer as I was hoping to get any value out of him. Never expected how good this trade was for the rays, could even get better, there’s still Shane Baz in the minors.
Good swing and miss guy? y
Yes. Elite? Never.
Trust me, the run of the mill fans in Pittsburgh were so pumped when that Archer trade got made. They thought he was an ace. You would have thought they got Clayton Kershaw. Pirates were going nowhere that season and people thought Archer was going to push them into the playoffs. Sports talk radio was all a buzz about this great trade finally by the Pirates. Meanwhile, my co-worker and I, who were both former partial season ticket holders for many years before the Cutch and Cole debacle, were just dumbfounded. They gave up two of the guys they always called their “future all-stars” and wouldn’t even think to trade when we needed a legit bat or ace in 2013-2015, but then they threw them away for a washed up Chris Archer. It had disaster written all over it. But the Pirate fans thought this was the greatest trade since Babe Ruth for pocket cash.
Sure…
No. Some pirate fans perhaps, not all.
The Pirates did get Clayton Kershaw in the trade, just World Series Kershaw.
Your team would take any kershaw in a heartbeat. So keep talking crap. It’s a dumb look
“My team”?
Donb34. Agree!!!!! The media and fans called for it. Huntington didn’t get players they needed during their run but traded the future away at the front of a rebuild! My oh my i should be GM.
As a lifelong Pirates fan, I was dumbfounded when the trade was made. Whether you liked Huntington or not, this trade was so out of the ordinary for him. It was not the type of trade he normally made, but so many Pirate fans were whining about how the Pirates were a contender that Year (they weren’t but many fans had their fantasies) and Huntington gave in and made a terrible trade.
Aren’t they supposed to have scouts, coaches who give input. As a fan I could see Meadows was a solid hitter, Glasnow had potential. I saw Baez in Spring Training and thought he looked fabulous???
That is what was said when he was acquired
Can’t tie up a large percentage of your payroll on a guy who is a massive question mark.
Once cut loose he’ll be a low guarantee sign, though, so Pittsburgh might take him back.
Voted yes because turning down that option is a lock.
I said this earlier, but…
Unless Chris literally sets PNC Park on fire and burns it to the ground, it’s hard to see how the trade could work out much worse.
I feel bad for you, man. Here’s to better luck going forward!
Why did the Pirates make the deal? Such a weird trade to make for a bottom feeding and tanking team.
I am a fan of an AL team so maybe I missed the 5-day period in which the Pirates thought they were a postseason team or a pitcher away from being competitive when they made this move.
Also weird for a team to be trading Gerrit Cole and then turning around and giving up more to get a guy who made similar money as Cole did in his last 2 years of team control.
Context:
Fans in Pittsburgh care more about whether the team spends money than wins or losses.
The team traded Cole and McCutchen in the prior off season. Attendance dipped about 25%.
The team started well, but by early July, they were far back in the division and Huntingdon said on his radio show that he’d have to sell unless the team gave him a reason to buy.
The team then won 11 in a row and got within 2 games of the division lead.
Wanting to prove that they cared about winning while still not spending much, they thought they had the perfect trade target in Archer (a big name, but cheap).
A few weeks earlier, Meadows had complained about being sent back to AAA and Glasnow at the time couldn’t hit the ocean from a boat and was trending towards a DFA.
Timing is everything.
Complete crap about Glasnow maybe being DFA’d. They had moved him to the pen and he had been producing quite well. Never was considered.
Meadows “complained”…not true either. Sure, he would have liked to stay, but they were competing and he needed AB’s., which he couldn’t get as they were competitive.
You must’ve been watching a different Glasnow. The one that pitched for Pittsburgh was only good at pi$$ing down his leg.
This is a situation where the people knew less ending up “knowing more”.
Glasnow was maybe the worst MLB pitcher I’ve seen over an extended period of time as a Pirate. Anyone who watched him wouldn’t have blinked at his inclusion in the trade. Normally, a pitcher who is that bad gets 1-5 games and then you never see them again. This went on for years.
For the longest time, I was as adamant as anyone “you can’t give up on Glasnow, long limbed pitchers take longer, Randy Johnson, etc.” but by the end…no to little hope for him.
The people who only remembered his MLB Pipeline rankings were confused (outraged is a bit strong) by his trade. The people who watched him were not. But, this is a case where sample size didn’t matter because he pulled a complete 180 in Tampa.
That he was so bad here and then so good there instantly is the true scandal, not the trade itself. What did they do wrong/what did Tampa do right?
Or did the Rays just slip him a Xanax, as per my theory.
Now that he no longer looks like a deer in the headlights, he’s pretty good.
My guess is Tampa eased Glasnow into things until he refined what needed refining and then they turned him loose. Wins/Losses don’t really matter to them from an individual standpoint. If he started to look shaky after 3 innings they’d pull him and go to the pen. Over time he fixed what needed fixing and his confidence grew. I think they ran an opener in front of him a couple times to get through the top of the order so he wouldn’t see them 3 times. It was really good planning and development by Tampa.
Serious question: The Archer story says Pirate pitching coaches asked for more two-seamers, with bad results.
Was the coaching staff responsible for the failures of both Archer and Glasnow?
Its almost like the problem with these pitchers was Pittsburg more than themselves… hm
Geo- didn’t see your comment originally, but I’d have to say yes. They were preaching outdated methods
Poor coaching….That’s surely a part of it
This comment is absolute falsehoods.
Excellent point. Trade was terrible even for a contending team with a deep minor league system…..which we were neither
Unfortunately, this surgery more often than not is career-ending. A shame.
Yep. He’s done.
“whoops” – Huntington
Hindsight is always 20/20, of course, but this will pretty much have to make it to many/most “worst trades of all time” lists.
11 million is still considered reasonable and he is not far removed from being good. I would pass but pirates will pick up the option
I don’t think they will but I think he gets bought out and then ends up back in Pittsburgh on a much cheaper ‘make good’ contract as he’d likely only get a minors contract with incentives elsewhere coming off the TOS.
It’s Pitts one fault though, they took a decent pitcher and messed with his pitches and then he tanked. Should have just let him do his thing his way.
They had no need for a frontline starter when you are competing for 4th place
Look at it this way….. It saves Pirates management the trouble of either trading or qualifying offers for Meadows, Baz, and Glasnow…
Archer has never been an ace but he was solid in 2014 2015 and 2016. Aside from then he’s been an overpriced back end starter
He pitched in the AL East and with that contract, he seemed like a great chance to thrive pitching in the National League
I would have had no problem picking up Archer….just not for the price paid. And I said that the day of the trade
There are bad trades and then there are oh god they did what trades, this one is an oh god they did what type of trade. It didn’t make sense to even trade for Archer, they wern’t even in contention.
Are you high? They were in the thick of playoff contention and were only 5-6 behind the Cubs for the NL central lead. Not like last year when the Mets acquired Marcus Stroman.
Chris Archer had been pitching in the AL EAST and was seen as a good bounce back candidate. Especially if he moved to the archaic NL where they require the pitcher to hit
Cmon, they were in contention because they won 11 straight. They were back out of contention 2 weeks later. And they weren’t in contention before that 11 game stretch
As someone above said.. Timing is everything. But they were hardly a legit contender
Yes he was leaving the band box stadiums of the AL East but you don’t give up that level of talent for a bounce back candidate. That’s the thing.
Who cares. There is not gonna be a season. Unreal how you clowns report BS.
A well known pitcher is out until 2021 with a major surgery. That is significant even if there is no baseball this year. Imagine getting this triggeged
How’s it feel to be an eternal DB?
HaloShane is the kid who said and did stupid things to get picked on by the other kids, just to get any attention at all.
So Shane, I take it You wouldn’t care if Ohtani needed this surgery? Shouldn’t even be reported here?
What a sad life to be this triggered by an article about the Pirates. Wow
Looks like they made another bad trade today. Bye bye Tucker and Rodriguez.
Former-I did not think that trades could be made but you are right.
I do not think that this is an April fool.NH had some bad trades at first and at the end but he traded extremely well in the middle.
I can see why the Red Sox dumped Cherington.
This clown has got to go with this trade.It was bad enough giving Marte away.
Can you fire someone before eight months is up?
He’s trolling, neither were traded.
Thank you Youngtank.It was an article in Dodgers Digest that I saw on the Internet,
I am embarrassed to be that gullible.
It seems like an awful trade to me.
What have people noted as different in Archer since being sent to the Pirates? Based on their past fortunes with AJ Burnett, Liriano, etc my first thought was that he’d be a breakout star last year.
Neil Huntington made a lot of thrifty trades and signings in the early days of his GM tenure. A lot of the players he acquired (Mark Melancon, AJ Burnett, Charlie Morton, Tony Watson, Francisco Liriano, JA Happ, etc) excelled and he reached his peak in 2015 when the team won 98 games, second best record that year. The Cardinals had the best record so unfortunately they didn’t clinch the NL Central.
Flash forward a few years and Neil had started to fall back to earth. Many of his moves weren’t panning out. After a 2017 offseason where the team traded stars Andrew McCutchen and Gerrit Cole, fans were ready to kill Neil H.
He had always criticized lopsided trades, saying he would ‘never do something insane’. Cut to July 2018. The team had a 12-game winning streak and was in the playoff hunt. If Huntington didn’t make a move to bolster the roster, the fans would have killed him. So at the last minute of the 7/31 deadline, Neil rolled the dice and paid a King’s ransom for 3-4 years of Chris Archer. Archer had underperformed for two years but had potential to rebound by moving to the NL…
The rest is history
The Archer trade would be inexcusable in fantasy baseball. The fact this trade occurred in MLB is mind blowing. Archer always was overrated.
I agree
Most sports columnists were shocked
I remember thinking to myself at the time of the trade that this was a bad deal. Archer had shown signs of not being consistently good (in my opinion) and I thought the hype surrounding him was way to high. Regardless at the time I wanted the Braves to get him, but when I saw what the pirates gave up, I was immediately happy we didn’t pay that.
There is one person to blame for this debacle & it ain’t Huntington: Bob Nutting. When one of the biggest Free Agent singings in the history of the franchise is Ivan Nova, what you’re essentially doing is forcing your GM to completely overpay for “controllable” talent in any win-now scenario. Other teams know this and have you over a barrel. A franchise like the Pirates can’t trade for pure rentals, or sign FA’s, or take on salary in a trade — so the only recourse they had at the time was to severely overpay for an inexpensive good pitcher with years of control left in order to make a run at it. Yes it’s a horrible trade, but it’s a horrible trade that was the result of cheap ownership.
Pirates gave up too much for Archer and didn’t get nearly enough for Cole. Someone needs to be fired.
Again?!??
Yes,it is Brian Cashman.He could have had Cole two years before and won another championship with him.
Despite some brief stretches of success, the Pirates have been a poorly owned, poorly run operation since about 1910. That’s not an exaggeration. If you’re counting championships, they’ve been better than the Cubs. Overall, they’ve been nearly as miserable.
Tbear,go back into hibernation.
That is one of the most ridiculous statements that I have ever seen on here.
I am going to let you guys in on a secret. And based on some of the comments above some of you already know. It was not the fault of Huntington.
It’s always been the fault of the owner Robert Nutting. He’s the one who values making a profit over winning. Always has and always will. Huntington was just doing as he was told to do.
From 2013 when they had their first winning season in 20 seasons and they went cheap at the deadline. When they needed pitchers and a big bat or two. They brought in Marlon Byrd and Justin Morneau.2 aging players and one of which hadn’t been right since the 2010 season in which he suffered a concussion.
Fast forward a year to 2014 once again they found themselves needing pitching help as well as a big bat or two. But while claiming they was trying to get John Lester and David Price their big get was John Axford. And a few other stiffs off waivers.
Then we fast forward again to 2015 the last time they made the playoffs and their best season in which they won 98 games. Once again they find themselves needing to add a big bat or two. And pitching help.they definitely added the pitching help in JA Happ because he was way better than anyone could have expected.
But once again they failed to get a hitter because they was deemed by the owner as to expensive. So after they are eliminated from the playoffs. What does the owner do with a team that won 98 games and set records for attendance ? He begins to purge the talent that won 98 games.
Gone AJ Burnett, Neil Walker, Pedro Alvarez, JA Happ. And it’s been downhill ever since. The New GM is going to experience the same issues that Huntington did. Low payrolls and not allowed to draft power hitters and power pitchers. Because they are deemed to be to expensive once they hit arbitration.
So as long as Nutting owns the Pirates don’t expect them to ever be real contenders. They might get lucky once in a while and make a wild card game. But that’s about it